- Harnsowl Ko
- New York, NY
- United States
Student - B.E - Chemical Engineering, Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art
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Where does our identity as being "human" come from?
This week in my Bioelectricity class we discussed electrical stimulation. Research on electrical stimulation often focuses on the manipulation the electrical fields and currents. An example of this manipulation can be seen in Bill Doyle's TED talk, which deals with orienting cancer cells along an electric field in order to disrupt their replication. Electrical stimulation can also be used in devices such as pacemakers or neuroprosthetics for injury recovery. As technology begins to expand, the concept of prosthetics replacing major body parts is not far off. Thus, the question becomes does a person lose their given identity because they are not 100% “human”? But before you answer, keep in mind that the bacteria in your gut outnumber the number of cells in your entire body by a factor of 10!
Philip Snape
But to remain concise, identity is ideally dynamic and fluid within a living culture - when one's identity becomes rigid and fixed then perhaps we would say that the culture is no longer allowed to grow and express itself in the way that is a best fit to its environment (internally and externally).
Gender Identity is a prime example - what would you describe as masculine and feminine and are these potentially different from male and female?
But to remain on the topic of human identity - we must choose (in my opinion) how we will express our humanity, through social discourses, through culture, through our ability to generate knowledge and technology even.
Finally though, the point was raised that more bacterial cells inhabit a human body than human cells, which is fascinating - but unless these bacteria had some sort of social consciousness or identity, I would not identify myself as a bacteria colony. Nor would I call myself a machine simply because I use one.
Question answered?
Tim Petersen
inthegarden beyondthecave
But still, is the human brain our "identity". Not if what we mean by "identity" is that within us which never changes and thereby quaifies one as always being the same person even though all other aspects of our selves do change. The brain always changes, so it is not something that is permanently identical with itself.
I have suggested below that our identity is not what remains the same within us, but the unity of our stories, which unity arises out of, and is recognized because of, our concern for ourselves and for each other.
Mary M. 50+
Thank you.
Harnsowl Ko 50+
Joanna Cruz
Mark-maria Agatemor
Howard Yee 50+
I'm reminded of a book: "The Golden Age" by John C. Wright. In this universe, people live their lives through robotic copies of themselves (much like the movie Surrogates). However, their consciousness is copied onto the robot instead of having them control the robot through the original consciousness. However, only one consciousness is active at any one time, thus for all intents and purposes, there remains a single entity. In the story, the main character's surrogate was killed (activating the backup consciousness), yet somehow the dead consciousness survived, thus questioning who was the real/original/singular person.
Jeremy Poff
Although evolution is occurring all the time, we are less likely to be shocked by what we evolve into than by what we do to change our own lives.
By nature humans are selfish, and at an even deeper level there is the selfish gene theory. We will always be striving to improve our lifestyles. Recently we have realised that our lifestyles may change drastically if we pollute the earth, our habitat, yet at the same time we buy cheaper goods that we dispose of in record time. The increasing landfill requirements must be mind boggling.
Whether we destroy our planet or solve the problems of increasing population we will still be human. Some actions are considered sub-human and there are many misfits in the world, yet they are all termed human.
Obviously a unit with 0% human content would not be human. I believe that a prosthetic body with a human brain would be human (albeit with incredible self-image issues to overcome), but a prosthetic brain in a human body would not be a human.
Humans have the "capacity" for feelings. Not all of them display feelings, or display all feelings, but they have that capacity. It translates into emotions, rational and non-rational thoughts and actions and achievement against the odds. It also allows us to generate ideas from mere thought, to nurture them with observation, and possibly to disseminate them with actions or by communication.
Solving medical issues does not make us less human. It is the moral issues that will determine where we go as a race. Questions like; Should children be allowed to be born to two dead parents, do we pull out all stops to save the life of a criminal, are animal parts permissible to save human lives, can we accept anything a human can conceive of as "human" and allowable, should we engineer the genes of new lives? These sorts of questions.
Veronica Shalotenko 50+
I enjoyed reading your comment; it’s definitely thought provoking. I especially agree that as far as prosthetics go, it matters which body part or organ is replaced. There is definitely something special about the brain. The brain is an incredibly complex structure; I doubt scientists will ever be able to replicate it exactly in the laboratory. That is, a brain grown in a lab will never exactly match the human brain. What does it even mean for a lab-grown brain to “match” the human brain? Everyone sees the world differently and has different feelings and perceptions. And, if everyone’s brain is different, how can a “standardized” brain be cultivated in the laboratory? Hence, I do agree that a being with a lab-grown brain cannot necessarily be considered human. In contrast, I don’t think that replacing any body part other than the brain by a lab-grown prosthetic makes the recipient of the transplant any less “human.” Perhaps, this has to do with the fact that body parts other than the brain are not as radically different from one person to the next.
Steven Why 30+
"As technology begins to expand, the concept of prosthetics replacing major body parts is not far off. Thus, the question becomes does a person lose their given identity because they are not 100% “human”? "
The answer is it depends on the person. Maybe, just maybe, that's what makes us human.
Anupriy Kanti
Would like to leave with something I had written a while back -
http://heyimalive.blogspot.in/2008/11/who-am-i.html
WHO AM I?
Am I just a fusion of different chemicals,
formed miraculously by some divine intervention?
Am I just a biological species,
happening to be composed of cells and tissues?
Am I just an individual,
who loves socializing, traveling and sketching?
Am I just a Mumbai-ite,
with a happy family and great friends around the place?
Am I just an Indian,
living in a metropolitan city?
Am I just a teenager,
vainly trying to figure out life and relationships?
Am I just a human being,
doing my time on this planet seeing if I make a difference?
Am I just a carbon speck,
in this infinite universe soup somewhere in the span of my existence?
Or Am I just...Anupriy?
We may be everything, but is it right for us to think within a context to a degree that we forget the rest.
Perhaps that is why there is never a clear answer about the origin of our identity.
inthegarden beyondthecave
Almost nothing within us is permanent. Each of us is a story whose unity is perceived by us because of the importance of the plot to each of the moments of spirit we are within the plot. It is our love for the other moments of spirit within the story that binds the story into one story.
But to add another layer of complexity, each story is composed of stories, and each story is part of a larger story. Our identity is not something discrete. We are all connected, yet there is difference everywhere that negates perfect identity.
But, ultimately it is our spirits' love of spirit that holds the stories together. So long as the mechanisms we put in our bodies do not destroy our spirits' love of spirit, those mechanisms do not destroy our identity.
I do have a fear that at some point in our future, if we are not careful, the mechanisms we put in ourselves to improve ourselves may actually affect out nervous systems to such a degree that we will cease to be truly conscious spirit, much less spirit that loves spirit. If we did that, we would destroy our most precious identity.
Tim Petersen
As far as the manipulations of the electrical and electro-magnetic fields in our bodies is concerned, I think they are natural to our physical self before being introduced by the dr's of science so I don't see them as adding or subtracting anything from the physical. I am certainly most concerned about the intellectual, emotional, and spiritual manipulations of our lives by these representatives of the learning instittutions in our "civilized nations", because in that context we have forgotten what it is to be human. There is a very real difference between the "human-being" and "being human".
Our identity crises originated long before your concerns of medical research and practice with a much more profound detriment to our existence and survivability. Medical research is just another symptom of our loss of understanding. We live in fear, because we fail to know "us".
Anupriy Kanti
Tim Petersen
Harnsowl Ko 50+
Manue M 10+
- my dear baby friend is highly handicapped. She is almost blind, she is almost deaf, she cannot even hold her head, she cannot feed herself, she cannot grow without the help of growth hormones. She will be two this summer. She as a human being had, never the less had a major impact on my life. Somehow, she still manages to show her humanity at full.
Crystelle Saleh
Harnsowl Ko 50+
Thank you for your comment. I think you are very right on in saying that there should be more done with the fact that we are indeed existing beings instead of concentrating on all the ways we're different.I like how you introduced the idea that human identities are constantly changing, because you're right. They are. With the world changing around us, so are our perceptions of identity.
Mary M. 50+
I know of no other way to answer this question.
Andrew Kiang 50+
Looking at what humans have done through history, I observe that we create technology, explore the world and our universe, and consider a vast range of topics within our brain. Perhaps animals engage in these activities also on a smaller scale, so does effecting the world on a larger scale makes us human? Are we human because of our physical composition or because of the actions we take? Maybe a mix of both? I don't know.
Mary M. 50+
Keep in mind that I have only had one cup of coffee, and that my answer is not scientific,
but I think it is sensible.
We are humans because we can have this conversation on-line.
As humans we ask thought provoking questions.....why are we here? Where does my identity of being a human come from?
A dog, sitting under a shady tree with his tongue out panting is not thinking..."why I'm I a dog? let me ask around to see if somebody can answer this question for me"......
And so, in my honest opinion, our identity to being human is innate in us. We are born human.
That some humans choose to act inhumane, and that we have to resort to human right groups and human right courts is not because we have an identity problem. It is that we have chosen not to be kind, and to love our fellow human......we have free will.
So where does our identity as being human come from? What do you think?
Harnsowl Ko 50+
Yu-An Chen 50+
I think "We are humans because we can have this conversation on-line." is a killer quote. Good job. I think its the brain made us human. Luckily, we are smart enough to think about other things rather than just basic survivals which is true in most animals. The ability to think and comes up with ideas separate us from animals. Another reason is curiosity, people are curious about a lot of stuff, and one of course is questioning ones identity. I will say the process of thinking about replying to the post itself is already an answer to the post
Adriaan Braam 20+
We have the free will to become worse than the worst beast, or the best angel we can be.
We are lucky, even as a worst beast we can change our mind, a beast can't.
Andrew Leader 50+
I think these you have all made some very insightful comments. I would like to add a few things--not so much in opposition, but from perhaps a different perspective.
Many humans cannot have this conversation online.
You don't know what animals are or are not thinking. Particularly mammals, with brains not so dissimilar from humans. Apes can speak sign-language, after all.
What is it about the way we are born that makes it a human birth? Our DNA? The way we look? Being carried in the womb? Wording this carefully, I think some people might consider in-vitro fertilization to be something other than human since it is a substitute for a process that is, for lack of better words, more natural, but it certainly produces humans.
And as for human interaction, does a recluse lose his human identity? Is a child raised by a wolf not a human, but a wolf?
I submit one possible answer to these questions: It's an ensemble of the above categories that makes up our human identity. Our human identity is a multi-dimensional spectrum, not a binary yes or no. What do you all think?
Nicolette Sinensky 50+
I have to agree with your statement that it is the thought provoking questions that make us human. Science may eventually bring us to the point where could entirely replicate the brain's functions and responses, but being human is more than that. It's having a self aware conscienceless that makes decisions, has a sense of morality, and has the capacity to imagine.
Matthew Wieder 50+
I agree that this is definitely more complicated than just a yes or no question. Just quickly if we take a look at when we consider a human being dead in medical and legal terms, it used to be when a major system failed. Now however, with advanced life support this is no longer the case. Instead we have transitioned, I believe correctly, to brain functioning as an indicator for what is considered a human life. If one considers what is different between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom as well as the rest of life on earth is the fact that we unlike all other species have the ability and capacity to question our existence, how we got here, what the meaning of life is. While monkeys may be able to sign you don't see monkey's with organized religions. Thus the brain of the human while similar in many of its anatomical features to those of other species is, due to its capacity for higher learning and complicated thought processing, human. If we lose this capability we are no longer considered to possess human life and therefore either brainstem death or full brain death is considered the actual legal indicator of death.
Mary M. 50+
Thank you very much for your insightful replies.
Harnsowl, you said "I think that our identity as being human comes from the shared experiences we all share, and ironically enough, that includes our experiences with technology." I very much agree with you. The shared experiences is a big part.......I never thought, in a million years, I would be sitting in my own office enjoying a conversation with people from all walks of life and all countries simultaneously, and with so much insight. My life has changed. I feel more....dare I say..."human". Thank you Harnsowl.
Yu-An, I collect quotes....and being told that what I said is a "killer quote", well, that's just about as nice a complement as I can receive. Thank you. And yes, our curiosity about life is also part of what makes us human....and that curiosity has brought us to where we are today.
Yu-An if you want to know where the curiosity can take us.......go to the conversation on favorite quotes, and then click on a link someone provided to youtube......it is short, but meaningful....talk about a killer quote!!!
Adriaan, what can I say......thank you very much. I'm glad that my small simple contribution was worthy of your reply.
Andrew, What do I think? I think you, are very insightful. I love your illustrations, and your many questions to reflect on. Yes, our human identity is made up of an ensemble of things....it is multidimensional.........There is no one answer that would totally satisfiy our complex brain.
Here is a favorite quote of mine: "The mind, once expanded to the dimensions of new ideas, never returns to it's original size". Oliver W Holmes.
I want to say to all of you.....my mind has grown quite a bit since this morning...thank you all!!
Mary M. 50+
Your statement, "It's having a self aware conscienceless that makes decisions, has a sense of morality, and has the capacity to imagine" is very concise and very true.
Some 18 years ago I was having a conversation with a young man about being human verses animals. He said we are just like the animals. He said he was the same as a dog. No matter what I said, he still insisted we are all animals, and therefore he had no need to believe in God or the Bible.
I was so shocked at that level of reasoning that I was left speechless. Of course, my brain at the time did not have all the accurate knowledge and understanding it does now, and my ability to make my point was not all it is today.
Still, now, some 17 years later I still remember the conversation.
Just the fact that I can sit at a computer and type away, and hit backspace and reword something I'm not too happy with is part of that wonderful "human" factor.
And yes, because we have a wonderful brain. Nothing else on Earth even comes close to it. We are marvelously made...my soul is very well aware.
Thank you Nicolette. Our ability to imagine also is important as you mentioned. Here is a beautiful quote on our imagination: "Imagination is the highest kite one can fly".
Mary M. 50+
Matthew,
Your words express what I was thinking. Thank you for expounding on the brain.
One of our neighbors fell three years ago and Lou Gehrits disease set on.....she is now in ICU in the last stages all intubated. She manages to open her eyes and look around, but cannot do much of anything else. Still, each time we run our hands through her hair and massage her feet and legs and arms, she will fix her eyes on the one doing the massaging. I know she is there. Her life is so precious to all of us that know her. She IS HUMAN, even though she cannot do anything I do anymore. It is the beating of her heart and her brain function that still keep her alive, and I truly feel she has the sheer will to live......somehow I sense it......I may be wrong.
But I know it will come down to her brain........we are not looking forward to that moment. I know her husband is besides himself with agony.
I wanted to share this story to make this conversation even more HUMAN.....I was inspired by yesterday's TED talk from the PIXAR speaker. Take the time to watch it if you haven't done so yet.
Be Well.
Notable Solutions LLC
Frans Kellner 100+
The information about family, locality and social group builds up to a personal profile that is conceived of as me.
Andrew Tam
I agree with the definition you have laid out. However, I would add onto it that our reactions and responses to this information also shape our identity. To take a step even further back, I'd like to relate this to Adriann's comment above. Our reactions and responses are results of the human mind and its complexity.
For a class on the human mind that I was enrolled in last semester, I read an article titled "Minds, Brains and Programs," by John Searle. In it, he discusses that it is really the mere presence of our brains that makes us human. In what other species/technology is there something so sophisticated as our own brain? Here's another question that we struggled with in the class: if we could replicate the brain exactly, and put it inside a robot, it would theoretically think, feel, move, and do everything exactly as we do. Given these circumstances, do you think we could consider the robot as having a human identity?
Frans Kellner 100+
Ariel Habshush 50+
I’d like to respond to your comment about “if we could replicate the brain exactly, and put it inside a robot, it would theoretically think, feel, move, and do everything exactly as we do. Given these circumstances, do you think we could consider the robot as having a human identity?”
I would not consider the robot as a human being. I think what gives us the status of human beings is 1) our unique intricate body that we are born with and 2) the process of how we arrive to this world.
Granted, there are people that require prosthesis and other mechanical-electrical man-made devices. However, these devices are only added on after these people are born with their natural bodies. Robots are completely made up of prostheses.
What also does not provide robots with the status of humans is the process in which they are created. A robot is a completely man-made device using mechanical and electrical devices. Human on the other hand are the product of a seed fertilizing an egg and the complex biological development that occurs afterwards.
Samantha Massengill 50+
No I don't think we could consider the robot to be human, but for different reasons than ariel's. I don't think our bodies or biological development are as important as our consciousness. To be human, we must have a sense of self. We must be aware of our existence and aware of the idea of communication. Since I believe our bodies are secondary to consciousness, I do not think things like neuroprosthetics or probiotics make us any less human.
Sophie Rand 50+
Frans Kellner 100+
Maria Georgescu 50+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E
One of the research experiments shown in the video actually does show us that we can just as easily assume the body we are in as ours, as we can for another complete stranger’s body. Literally, the person’s consciousness jumped across space. Our brain is truly amazing but I don’t think that we can solely be defined by the physical connections in our brain. That is only the beginning.
Adriaan Braam 20+
Just like our body is what it is because of what we decide to eat, our mind is what we decide to love.
Only those that have a human mind have the free will to determine, for themselves, what is truth and the will to do what is good, for goodness sake.
Our mind consists of a will and an understanding (which relate just like the heart and lungs) and their relationship is related in this book The Human Mind.
http://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/source/TheHumanMind.pdf?attredirects=0
Talking about mind, we also know that every particle of a male's body is different than that of a woman's body. What about their minds??
http://www.soc.hawaii.edu/leonj/leonj/leonpsy/instructor/gloss/gendergenes.html
Harnsowl Ko 50+
Thank you for your comment and two links. I learned quite a bit from them. I understand that we, as humans, have the will and understanding to determine the truth, and that separates us from other beings greatly. However watching Amber Case's TED talk on the relationship between humans and technology raised a question for me. How much of our identity is "stored" via technology? Can't what we say or post on a forum such as this, be considered part of our identity, considering it is our thoughts that we're righting down? I accept that the mind is a component of our human identity, but maybe technology plays a larger role in it than we may think.
Adriaan Braam 20+
I believe anything outside the mind is the expression of that mind. Whether we talk or type or text-message, or even show our face, it is all expression of the mind or communication. Depending on who we communicate with and how well we can express ourselves, determines how much in that communication is truly us.
Also, we can choose how much to express our "real" self or identity, can animals do that?
Obviously there is something of Rembrandt in the "Night Watch" so people can recognize it as his work, but there is nothing physical of hem there.
Debra Smith 200+
reflection.
Adriaan Braam 20+
Your body seems in bad shape at the momnent but luckily your mind, YOU, is fine :) Please see this as very useful for people that want to show their love to you.
My best wishes and please have a fast recovery!
Love
Adri
Tim Colgan 50+
Harnsowl Ko 50+
I hope you a speedy recovery. With regard to your comment, I think that it brings up a very interesting point. People are quick to bring up the mind in discussing human identity, but your comment raised the following question for me: what happens if our bodies are not quite the fine machine we, as you say, count on without reflection?
Mwenjew Wewngwa
On the overall i tend to think that who we are physically plays a great deal in shaping us by the experiences that we get through the physicall self. however if you step back and discriminate urself from your body see the experience for what it is, look over and beyond it, ull traverse limits of everyday existense.
Live strong Debra, much Love !
Debra Smith 200+
Interesting question which I am not suited to answer. My body has always been a stalwart and ready actor in any activity I chose but now that I must think not just twice but sometimes 15 times before it cooperates, I find that I truly identify most closely with the products of my brain. I hope this is helpful as it is a spontaneous and faithful report of my own curious and very fascinating experience.
**Big thanks, kisses and hugs for those beautifl good wishes.
Michael M 30+
I think that is because in spite of illness the brain still functions and wants to have self-identity. Good to see you back on TED.
Frans Kellner 100+
Hope you will recover as fast as possible.
Sending you love.
Helen Hupe 30+
Kevin Brian Carroll
If Intellect is the conscious, aware presence of the human mind, then the true human being is not a corporeal mammalian organism, but is actually the informational result of the kind of corporeal brain that is capable of "generating" the sort of gathered informational whole that has self awareness, can ruminate, is dynamically expressive, and provides the corporeal organism that gives it physical existence the quality of sentience in the competitive survival arena that is the corporeal realm.
Harnsowl Ko 50+