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Ruben Ruiz

Custody Officer, LASD

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What entity, group or government through history has been the source of unecessary misery and death to the most amount of peoples?

Throughout history we have had some example of entities and/or governments that have caused misery and death to many, but can anyone helpe me pin point who might be the worst in this category? From the present to the begining of time. We know that Nazism, rogue dictatorships and religious persecutions have caused unecessarty death and destruction to many the world over. But there has to be the worst of the worst, but who?

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    Krisztián Pintér 200+

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    Feb 27 2012: communism/socialism has the direct death toll of some 60 million in the soviet union alone, and i have no idea about china and other parts of the world. if you add the number of deaths due to hindered economic progress, the number must be well over 100 million. the suffering population is in the billions. and both numbers are still counting.
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      griffin tucker 10+

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      Feb 28 2012: interesting way of putting it, but i don't think it is a good way to categorise.

      if i were to try to adopt a certain way of thinking (and i don't intend to offend you because i probably won't get it right) i would think that one wo/man's legacy being stopped is a form of genocide because what of the possible repurcussions of their future children will have on the earth? what if it were good or bad?

      if we think on the other end of the spectrum, we as a civilisation have come a long way, and we have overcome many obstacles and dangers and mistakes (and dangerous mistakes!)

      in my opinion, we should not try to categorise but rather learn from the past, and use past history as learning tools for the future.

      learning from the past can be just as education-worthy as learning from a friend's mistake, but not always.
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        Krisztián Pintér 200+

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        Feb 28 2012: not helping is very different than hindering. i'm blaming the king for not inventing the industrial revolution. but i do blame the communists for forcing a system on the people they didn't want, and which was known to be unworkable.
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          griffin tucker 10+

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          Feb 28 2012: communism works just as well as democracy, just differently, in my opinion.

          for extremely large populations where a foundation has already occurred according to belief structure and respect for not only peers but also seniority, this makes for ways of thinking and innovation that clash just like different religions - but it is the common ground and common interests that unite us as a human race.

          i call a difference between not helping and hindering also, but it's a bit like if a message is repeated enough, no matter the truth of it, it could be believed to be true by many. if it's the truth, then it works well. if it's the bended truth (ie. telling some truths but not others) it could end up being detrimental as this can cause disbelief amongst peers to seniority. if it's just a plain lie, it could backfire even more-so than telling bended truths.

          allowing people to know the truth is one thing, but the status quo is that the way society is brought up in the western world as well as enclosed communist societies would mean dangerous outcomes, so, we are stuck with not knowing the whole truth until something better comes along.

          i'm not sure which religion is the new black nowadays, but as much as they offer truth, lies can be formed within.
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        Krisztián Pintér 200+

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        Feb 28 2012: communism works just as well as democracy, depending in what your goal is. soviet style systems worked wonderfully for the leaders, for example. they got exactly what they wanted: absolute power. if your goal is for all men to have the same amount of wealth, communism also very good.

        but if you care about the well being of people, communism, both the existing and the theoretical, fails miserably.
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          Ruben Ruiz

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          Feb 28 2012: Sounds like you are describing the best democracy that money can buy here in the US, it sure has worked wonders for the leaders and their puppet masters, the 1%ers and the corporations. At this point I'm not sure if communism was any worse than demorcacy. Communism was restraint to a few countries vs how democracy, at least the type the US seems to want to spread at gun point, has been spread to a lot more countries that are now suffering the same fate to the harsh and unethical austerity measures being forced down to the 99%ers the world over.
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        Krisztián Pintér 200+

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        Feb 28 2012: ruben, i assume you won't move to cuba or north korea. so i recommend to stop whining, because you live the most luxurious life on the planet, and your liberties are greater than almost anyone's.

        about "austerity measures": nobody is forcing them on anyone. the IMF just says: either you do this, or i won't give you money. you see, it is not much of a threat. nobody is entitled to get IMF money. they can ask anything in return.
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          griffin tucker 10+

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          Feb 28 2012: democracy has it's flaws just as communism does, but the point i'm trying to make is that trying to convert an already existent basis for democracy from communism (considering the belief structure and respect is already _truly_ there) then this can be hazardous to the community in terms of riots and the leaders of the communist society to attempt to keep the peace.

          i don't think communist leaders always attain their leadership for absolute power, rather they have a healthy respect for the well-being of their people - for who are they without their people?

          i would be interested to understand which communist societies you are talking about in this respect, was it cuba or north korea? i'd be interested to do some research.
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          Ruben Ruiz

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          Feb 29 2012: Ouch, come on Pinter did you really have to tell me to stop whining? But it's ok, I am not going to retaliate by bad mouthing you at all. I'm simply surprised you did not call me unpatriotic too. And I mention this since most people who don't agree and never supported the unethical and immoral wars of choice that our government has gotten us into are refered to as being very upatriotic. So it is not that I am whining as you've stated but simply excercising a right I have. Did something I say make you that unconfortable so much so that you had to just tell me to move to Cuba or North Korea as a very cheap shot? I've read your comments in other parts and you strick me as a very well versed and educated man and I respect you for that. But don't patronize me. I think you are much better than that.
          As far as the austerity measures, they are pretty much being forced down the pockets of the 99%ers the world over. It is already happening right here in the US too, slowly but surely. But the good news is that Argentina has proved that there is a way out from the never ending slave cycle of indefinted indebtedness that the IMF, WB and others like wall street have always offered to any country in desperation.
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      Ruben Ruiz

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      Feb 28 2012: Mr. Pinter, I wonder if those millions of people that have died as a result of communism/socialism would compared to the millions of people that have died as a direct result from religious political tyrants and/or democracy. I also wonder how many millions of Native Americans and indigenous people have died as a result of so called Christian invaders in the Americas? But I'm also sure that those casualties have not been accurately accounted for at all since God does not keep tallies of un-christian human benings. Just like the US government only keeps tally of the US soldiers that have died in Iraq and not the deaths of the innocent Iraqui people. Coincidence? Intentional? History is the account of the conqueror, which is very questionable on my history book.
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        Krisztián Pintér 200+

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        Feb 28 2012: if you wonder, look it up. you will be surprised how few native americans were actually slaughtered. let alone how few there were in the first place.

        another interesting number: the number of people executed by the catholic inquisition during its entire existence is some thousands.
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          Ruben Ruiz

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          Feb 29 2012: From your responses I sense that you are Catholic/Christian and a US government puppet. I'm sorry if I'm way off. Too few Native Americans in the Americas? Therefore very few must have been slaughtered? And the Catholic inquisition from 1478-1834 executed only some thousands? I'm sure you are right since the ones in charge more likely than not did not keep tallies on the tortured dead. And again not by accident just like we don't know exactly how many hundreds of thosands innocent Iraqi civilians have died during our very Christian invasion of that country, right?
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        Krisztián Pintér 200+

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        Feb 29 2012: "Catholic/Christian": FAIL. i'm atheist, but respect buddhism

        "a US government puppet": FAIL. i'm libertarian.

        "exactly how many hundreds of thosands innocent Iraqi": MATH FAIL. hundred thousand is a small fraction of a hundred million.
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        Krisztián Pintér 200+

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        Feb 29 2012: "you really have to tell me to stop whining?"

        no, i chose to

        "people who don't agree and never supported the unethical and immoral wars"

        i don't support them either

        "Did something I say make you that unconfortable so much so that you had to just tell me to move to Cuba or North Korea"

        no, logic did. you compared america to communist systems. this is very very false.

        "As far as the austerity measures, they are pretty much being forced"

        and i can only repeat myself. nobody is forcing austerity measures on anyone. states got heavily indebted, and the market starts to get reluctant to give more money. it is not forcing. it is how getting indebted works. it is the same for governments, companies and households. if you have hundred thousand dollar debt, and nobody is willing to give you more, you are not "forced" to take steps. simply you were an idiot, and now it is time for correction. you had the party first, and received the bill later. (please note that this is hypothetical. i did not call you an idiot.)
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          Ruben Ruiz

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          Feb 29 2012: That is so naive on your part to believe that austery measures are not being forced on anyone. Can you honestly tell me that US taxpayers are not being forced to pay for the bail outs to the same entities that have been directly responsible for the current economic crisis? Did anybody ask us to vote on this? NO, just like we were never asked to vote on those wars of choice. The 1999 repeal of the Glass-Stegall Act is what has brought us to where we are for the most part and the parties responsible for this are the ones castigating us for it with the force price tag. You don't think this being force upon us the 99%ers? Austerity measures that have been bestowed upon third world countries for decades, and almost at gun point, is exactly the same treatment that we are now getting. And when I say at gun point, I mean that corporations and governments have been and are still using "economic hit men' to force others quite literally at gun point to dance to the tune of profits of corporations or else. Does the name John Perkings sound familiar to you? I doubt it. But now this exact treament is what we are getting right here at home and will continue to get some sever austerity measures in order to pay for all the illegal, immoral and unethical wars of choice and bail outs.
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        Krisztián Pintér 200+

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        Feb 29 2012: eeer, uhm, one of us does not really know what austerity measures are. afaik bailouts are something very very different. almost like the opposite.
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          Ruben Ruiz

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          Mar 1 2012: Almost like the oposite but both are being done without the consent and full agreement of the majority of the constituents. Almost the opposite and yet they both rob and bring missery to the same constituents just the same. So it is two different weapons used to force, yes force, the sheeple to accept less and less of almost everything to include freedom. And there is really no need to sounding so condescending but I know it's a choice. Besides I've already complemented you on how educated and smart you seem to be so really, there is no need to ridicule nor make fun of others. Thank you my amigo.
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        Krisztián Pintér 200+

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        Mar 1 2012: and now you are running into political slogans. let us just recap that you have said austerity is forced. you were not able to back up that statement, so it fell flat.

        now to move on the the new claims. in a democracy, stupidity of people, combined with the indoctrination efforts of the powers that be, leads to ignorance on massive scale. in such an environment, government can loot the public goods and rule a country. but what a shocking difference that is from actual military/police enforcement, mass murder and torture of a dictatorship. the comparison is very much false, and disrespectful for the victims of a bloody regime.

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