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Juliette LaMontagne

Founder & Managing Director, Breaker

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What are the advantages/disadvantages of learning models that exist outside of traditional educational institutions?

With the growing number of alternative learning pathways and opportunities to better serve the needs of individual students, what's working best? And what can we learn from the failures and tensions? Where and how have the models in the margins effectively disrupted the status quo?

I'll add to the conversation my current initiative, Breaker - driving alternative learning and social innovation by mobilizing interdisciplinary teams of young creative collaborators to design product solutions to global challenges.

This Live Conversation will start on Feb. 15, 2012, 1:00pm EST/ 10:00am PST

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Topics: Live Conversation design ed social enterprises
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  • Hal Swyers

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    Feb 15 2012: If we look at historical trends, any model of the economy based strictly on human labor will not be succesful in the future. This is not to say that there won't be an element of physical labor in many people's jobs, but the any production process that can be broken down to static tasks (e.g. tasks that do not change over time), will continue to be automated.

    We can see our economy moving to be focused on a few key areas that machines/computers are not going to infringe on in the near future: Social interaction between people, creativity/problem solving and systems/general maintenance and managment.

    Key leadership positions within business/finance and government will still be focused on how best to maximize returns on resources, and acedemia will stil be focused on analysis and interpretation.

    There are probably a few other areas that people would want to include, but we have to accept that our current educational paradigm is not engaging students adequately enough paricularly in areas of decision making, applied analysis and creativity.

    I think one of the greatest challenges facing society in education is to come to grips with how to keep students from becoming bored. Hopefully that is changing.

  • André Stern

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    Feb 15 2012: If you are interessted in the testimonial of an grownup Unschooler, that is my story and my job to tell about it.
    André Stern
    www.andrestern.com
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    Dee Cardenas

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    Feb 15 2012: It is a balance. Some children respond very well to learning through games, and I would say that in the case of game of village it does actually teach the process of problem solving and interpersonal communications~ in general not things that turn up in a standardized test. But valuable nonetheless.

  • phill melia

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    Feb 15 2012: As a Design and Technology teacher I am all for learning through experiment and modelling. This however is an extremely expensive subject and the current cost cutting in UK education limits my ability to encourage this creative and adventurous form of teaching and learning.
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    paul bettinson

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    Feb 15 2012: i am more and more interested in exploring ways in which to bring learning closer to the life of the individual participant in a community of other learners. There are ways using web 2.0, u-learning and MOOCs etc that could tap more into the life of the learner. For example, being at home and discovering mould on a wall I could, (if I wanted to!) ask this to be a "project" within a MOOC and I research about mould and know more about science etc. This "project" ould be shared and contributed to and I would ultimately draw some conclusions (more questions!) about this and would have learned to learn in something that is part of my own everyday life experience - and possibly all done on a mobile phone!

    it would cover any assessment criteria and contribute to others learning too...

    apologise for the mould on the wall idea, maybe its a poor metaphor for condensation and education....

  • Gianluca Ravanelli

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    Feb 15 2012: I think that contemporary education is too weak on the field of emotions. If the real aim of the education system is to create strong and healthy, open-minded and dinamic people, we NEED to improve "emotional skills", just as we are educated to mathematical logic, scientific method and, in some lucky cases, to the perception of Beauty. When a person has a clear and mature perception of the world, gained through his strong rational abilities and his highly developed emotional skills, he is really able to live a full life, for him/herself and for others. And I think this is the most important thing.
    I believe that there are many good methods of education, and I believe that each one of those methods teaches directly or indirectly almost all of these things: love, compassion, beauty, joy of living, and to go deep in understanding the world. If is there a method that doesn't teach these things, it is not an education method.

  • Kylie R

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    Feb 15 2012: I believe there is tremendous value in non traditional education, but I also know that standardized testing - high quality, higher order thinking skills included testing, when results are published, holds everyone to a high standard. I have worked in two complete opposite situations, and without the testing, the school / system was not functioning nearly as well, and it shows in international rankings. Not all assessment and evaluation is equal - apples and oranges...

    I am all for alternative approaches, but they need to match the child / adult and their learning style. Some students need to learn much more hands on than schools typically are. They aren't dumb at all. They simply learn differently.

    We shortchange them when we expect all to learn the same way, AND especially when we accommodate. It's like killing with kindness to me. Shouldn't everyone have access to decent math, reading, and writing skills?

  • Tami Speicher

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    Feb 15 2012: When thinking about the non-traditional forms of education there are a lot of things to consider. Each student and family needs to determine what is best for the student. The traditional brick and mortar school has never been the best choice for all students. Just in the last 20+ years have families decided to make sure all kids are enrolled in the option that is best for them. When you put a child in a classroom, you automatically place limitations on what will be covered and allowed. Some traditional teachers are really amazing and can offer a classroom with very few limitations to learning and success, but not every child can function or find success in even the best environment.

    Schools by 2014 will be teaching common core standards, hopefully based on life application (project based learning, problem based learning). When you think you about what we want our students to learn, none of us would like to think that the state standards are our goal. We all want our kids to be productive members of society. Face it, the standards are bare minimum. So for the question of what qualifies as success, it should be looking at life problems/situations/projects and being able to formulate a plan to solve the issue at hand using the base level skills outlined in the standards. The hope is that creativity, invention, analysis, mediation, and evaluation will win out for the student.

    Without educational options we continue to confine kids to the limits traditional education places on both teachers and students.

  • josie rolando

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    Feb 15 2012: I believe that is vital to introduce in the education system new tools, new ways to teach, but I believe that homeschooling is not the answer. Kids need to socialize, to interact with other people other than their parents, How do you solve this?

    • Sally K.

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      Feb 15 2012: Homeschoolers do socialize. They have other homeschoolers in homeschool groups, but also participate in things like Scouting, church and community groups, art lessons, music lessons, community theater, etc. There are plenty of opportunities! This also means that the child can find people with similar interests. Help the child find community interest groups (like garden clubs, for instance) and they will have a varied peer group of people with all levels of knowledge and of all ages. This is a very healthy social interaction, and may also lead the child to find mentor figures in subject areas where the parent has less expertise.

    • Tami Speicher

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      Feb 15 2012: Kids can find socialization options is many places, Scouts, 4-H, club or Y sports, church, and neighborhood gatherings. Just because they do not go to a brick and mortar school does not mean that you keep them in a bubble away from all other students and adults.

    • Rebecca Manor

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      Feb 15 2012: As someone who was homeschooled for 14 years I never ran into a problem with socialization. It's actually pretty funny to me that it's still an argument against homeschooling. I think that most home schooling parents feel a lot of pressure to insure that their children are social and have opportunities to play sports, have group outings, etc. The socialization argument was one of the most popular positions against homeschooling back when I was first starting in 1986! And from what I've seen in the NYT and elsewhere, it's still the main argument. Sure there are homeschooled kids that are awkward, but there are also public schooled kids that are awkward. Letting a few ill-adjusted products define this educational method is about as fair as allowing drug-addicted teens to stand as the model products of the public school system. All systems have flaws but I think they could each learn from one another and become stronger.

  • Stephanie Press

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    Feb 15 2012: My other question is wondering if catering to an easier path to learning teaches passivity? I'm not saying to ignore different people's strengths and weaknesses, but I question something like gaming being really effective instead of just encouraging passivity. Part of being successful in life is being able to fail and recover from that.

  • Ed Gregor

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    Feb 15 2012: What are your thoughts on Montessori Education? My kids go to a Montessori School and the education tools and philosophy seem to me to be far superior to ANYTHING I've looked at. These kids learn to LOVE education, learn self-discipline and are self discovering. My kids love school and Montessori allows kids to fully explore subjects with teaching methods that use all the senses. It is experiential learning, not teaching to a test or memorization. Kids can go way ahead of their class level if they desire and at a young age are responsible for planning their work day and sticking to their own schedules. I've seen nothing else out there that prepares kids for the creative and social problem solving this world demands. I hear educators on radio, etc. struggling to come up with curriculum and new teaching methods to address problems in education. Montessori has been around for years and I never hear them speak of it.

  • Mario P.

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    Feb 15 2012: Not to be an smart ass, but I think you should first try to define "traditional education" and do some research on how many "traditional schools" are there to see if that definition is fit or not, since many schools try to be innovative and to break the mold, and it has been so commonplace since the 90s that it could almost be defined as a new tradition on itself.

  • Mark Sturgell

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    Feb 15 2012: I apologize for coming into the conversation late, however, I believe I can direct many of you toward a valuable resource. Tufts Unversity Institute for Applied Research in Youth Development have been studying these issues for some time now. Most recently they have released results of a study funded by the National 4-H Council which are highly informative and provide traditional education and other youth development efforts plenty to learn. http://ase.tufts.edu/iaryd/researchPositive4H.htm

    The “Big Three” features of effective youth-serving programs are:
    ■ Positive and sustained relationships between youth and adults.
    ■ Activities that build important life skills( and lead to mastery in some areas)
    ■ Opportunities for youth to use these life skills as both participants and as leaders in valued community activities.

    Few educational opportunities provide even these three features. The sooner they do, the better off we'll be.

  • Ed Berger

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    Feb 15 2012: There is no question that students can not grow beyond the foundations established in elementary school and built upon through life. Foundations in at least 10 disciplines that are interdisciplinary, comprehensive and fact-based are required for every student. Learning styles vary, but foundation education is essential. Those trying to kill comprehensive education and privatize schools for profit are destroying one of the best educational systems in the world.
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    Schuyler Acosta

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    Feb 15 2012: Hi Juliette,

    I'm currently enrolled in an arts college. I think there are benefits of the show and tell method of doing things and having other follow in your footsteps. I find it easy to learn like that. More of the self-research aspects of teaching instructors expect students to figure out are harder concepts that seem to make students go crazy. I think what works best is having a projector, to really be able to describe the process, and have the students follow along. I feel like reading criteria like workbook assignments are becoming more traditional in comparison to online research and digital homework.

    Thanks for reading,
    SI

  • Jeremy Stuzka

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    Feb 15 2012: I would love to see self directed learning centers pop up all over the place.

    the students can learn from online teachers (solo or in class setting) from a variety of different places, participate in both 'real live' and streaming debates, and collaborate with other self directed students to allow both the simple and require socialization, while still being exposed to unconsidered ideas.

    Boxing yourself into a certain way of seeing things I feel is a real issue with home based education, but public self directed learning centers would allow both the self direction and un-thought-of injections of talent.

  • Alison Marie

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    Feb 15 2012: There is a strong need for innovation in schools and across education in general. I'm very concerned that schools do not meet the current needs of students who must be able to function in a world that is so very different from the one we've all grown up in. There are many constraints on both teaching and learning that ultimately take away from the true potential of students. Technology is a powerful tool that is rarely harnessed but even more importantly is the lack of focus on creative pursuits and real-world challenges. The ideal school for me would include several opportunities for play across the grade-levels, collaboration between similar and diverse ages of peers, community service, focus on solidifying basic skills, environmental connections and the Arts. The "Knowledge Economy" requires a different skill-set and we must enable individuals to be prepared for this. Through our company, IngeniousEd., we are hoping to find other visionaries and investors who want to put these ideas into reality! Traditional education had its time and now we must be creative and forward-thinking in our approach to both teaching and learning in the 21st century.
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    Lisa Jimenez

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    Feb 15 2012: My question has more to do with higher learning eligibility when you've home schooled. I am currently homeschooling and am concerned that if my daughter wants to attend a university, that she will not be able to. I feel that she has been better served in this option than any public school she's attended and is getting a much better education and is able to really focus on her strengths. I am concerned that her choices are limited. Can you comment on how higher education views home school? And what are her options?

    • Sally K.

      • +1
      Feb 15 2012: This depends on the college/university. My experience is that many colleges are willing to take a portfolio instead of a transcript. You may also consider working with a correspondence or charter school for the last few years of highschool to get the diploma.
      My siblings and I took the second route, but some of my younger sisters are taking the first route. The number of schools willing to take portfolios is going up and up - so contact the schools she's interested in, and see what their policies are! I never felt limited in my choices, and I never went to school until college. I'm now about to graduate with a master's degree (it worked for me) - so I have no doubt that she can succeed.
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        Lisa Jimenez

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        Feb 15 2012: Thank you, Sally. I home schooled my son as well but he went straight into the military. I am glad to know that her options aren't as limited as I thought.

        • Rebecca Manor

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          Feb 15 2012: Hi Lisa,

          I was homeschooled in the '80s and '90s and had no trouble applying to universities then and it's only become easier as more people choose this option. Just keep detailed records and you'll be fine!
          It also helps to take some standardized tests such as the ACT, SAT, and AP exams.
          All the best!

  • Ruben Fragoso

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    Feb 15 2012: would like to join

  • Matthew Smith

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    Feb 15 2012: If we treat our children's education as life education, our focus changes from teaching them the information to simply pass tests to teaching them how to excel in life. A 14-year old who is studying animal husbandry to become a vet, a 12-year old who is studying building and carpentry to become a general contractor, or a 15-year old who studies avionics in order to fly for a missionary organization, or a 16-year old who is graduating from college with his Associates so that he can go to a university for pre-med en route to becoming a sports chiropractor... These are the results, not barely-literate children who are more interested in partying and getting drunk than getting ahead in life.

  • Melinda Varfi

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    Feb 15 2012: Do you know of any schools that are currently using Peter Senge''s approach - Scools That Learn and the idea of systems thinking? We are researching on this topic currently and any best practice would be useful for out topic. Thanks!

  • Brian Magurn

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    Feb 15 2012: It seems to me that more learning can happen when a student has a burning interest and passion in a topic.

    A theoretical model would be:
    Students find topics on which they are passionate and /or wish to learn more.
    They research the topic on their own or guided by a teacher / mentor. (Researching the research that is available, making critical thinking judgements, summarizing condensing.etc)

    Then the students could share their research / findings and teach each other what they had learned.

    If there were a way to measure / grade this, I would think it would be based around acheivments. i.e. a student has done 40 hours worth of research, written a term paper... etc. Sort of like badges.

    That way a student could pick the subject (unlike in a traditional curriculum), but still gain the skills they are there to learn. And they could rack up hours of science, math, english, literature... content when subjects strike them as being relevant to them. That seems to be when really good efficient learning can happen, when a student is self motivated.

    • Sally K.

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      Feb 15 2012: I agree that self-motivation is a great way to learn, and that research is a great way to do it... that's how I've learned most of my life. But I would caution about the hours/term papers/etc. I had to count hours for a while when I was high-school aged, and it didn't feel like a reward. It felt like button counting. I'm sure that depends on the student, and how they are personally motivated, though. If this is within the usual school setting, though, and this is letting them break the mold a bit - buttons or no, go for it!

  • Ion Neculai

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    Feb 15 2012: I believe the current learning system is most certainly outdated. It is out of context, out of contact with the needs and interests of children (and parents) and is not viable on the long run as it has a low capacity of creating versatile, creative human beings. The sole reason for its standing in place is its economical efficiency (we must admit that literacy has greatly increased in the recent period of history). It however shows its limits even in this area, as mr. Sugata Mitra proved, especially in very poor areas. Some friends and I have started developing an organisation that will create learning programs for 6-10 yrs. old children in the shape of interactive, hands-on workshops for kids. We plan to discretely blend the academic curricula in workshops centered around building-construction-architecture. We seek the greatest degree of activity involving all the children senses, movement, thinking and intuitive learning. We find great inspiration in the words of people such as Sir Ken Robinson or Sugata Mitra as well as Maria Montessori. We have started with a repetitive workshop in which children build a realistic house. We were fascinated with the degree of interest and involvement of the children when they are in a situation of learning new things using their entire being. Would be greatly interested in knowing people involved in such projects or that have the background and interest of developing such programs.

  • Cesar Lopez

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    Feb 15 2012: Here's a list of books that can help anyone on to a better vision of life:

    Families and how to survive them - Robin Skynner - John Cleese (healthy psychology)
    Life and how to survive them - Robin Skynner - John Cleese (healthy psychology)
    Summerhil School - A.S. Neill (non-traditional school, many lessons to be learned here)
    Brain Rules - John Medina (how the brain truly learns, and why classrooms are so outdated, and homework too)

    And basically any book that challenges your assumptions. I know certain sources can be frowned upon among certain people, but still, I would highly recommend everyone watches at least once the three Zeitgeist Movies, or if you don't like them for any reason, at least watch Doug Mallette's talk about a resource based economy in youtube, one that he recently gave in Oslo. It's important to evolve our thinking, not just worry if our child is going to pass an exam, where I also think that grades are absolutely ridiculous, but without judgment, it's just the truth. You either know something or not, you can't put a number on knowledge. And knowledge is not equal to applying knowledge correctly. You can read and pass with flying colors exams about disassembling an engine, but when you actually do it, will you know how to deal with a broken stud in an aluminum casing? Theory and experience must go hand in hand.

  • Stephanie Press

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    Feb 15 2012: What do people think of the mind/body connection and that passive learning without practical application is not as effective? I suppose it depends on the child, but I believe it's important to engageboth the mind and the body in learning. I would like to see more technical classes or with a technical aspect, rather than just memorization and unpracticed theory.

  • Barbora Martinkova

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    Feb 15 2012: Regarding vocational schooling, there are problems with youth who do not study what they are interested in, they just study to have a secondary school. Teachers are often not competent in the field and thus don't provide kids with a real nput into it. Companies don't want to cooperate with the schools as the students are not competent. Seems like a dead circle!
    i believe if there was a more competitive environment when a group of companies were competing among each other to get the best kids from the best school, while group of the same number of schools compete on geting placement for kids in the best companies, there would be eventually a place for every school in companies for students to get n internship and all, schools and companies would do better to be better. Kids would see a goal and teachers would be better monitored, as well as instructors in the companies, which would lead to more effective education and practical studying which makes sense.

    just an idea, would like to hear some comments.

  • Sonal Singh

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    Feb 15 2012: Present day education system is about dissemination of a homogeneous and repetitive information to students within classrooms. Instead of promoting curiosity and encouraging insights, fixed syllabi and the necessity to do well in exams, restricts the boundaries of insights. this is the most unfortunate part of our education system. ancient universities were about curiosities. today the need for skills for jobs has drawn a parallel connection between the degree and pay scale, without promoting innovations and ideas. such a system of education first of all and most dangerously does not allow us to question our own social system in existence.

  • Roger Teel

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    Feb 15 2012: True education doesn't take place in a classroom where students are taught a specific set of standards that allows them to achieve a grade, but in the real world, where they learn how to apply whatever skills they have and are required to adapt to a work setting where they are expected to produce something. What that something is is irrelevant. Achieving higher altruistic goals, self-enlightenment, and a sense of fulfillment are products of self-esteem that really begins with a person's sense of worth gained in earlier family or peer settings. While we cannot construct an ideal world, we can create educational opportunities where ideas from all people can spring forth and take us to higher levels of understanding. What we have now is an outdated caste system that rewards wealth and equates success to materialistic achievement.

  • Sheila Stewart

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    Feb 15 2012: Underneath it all, how do we create value in their minds when they have themselves convinced they "don't need this stuff"?
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    Debra Silver 100+

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    TED AttendeeAssociateTED Live member
    Feb 15 2012: My problem with most government sponsored educational facilities is the that they go for an average ... often a low average and don't seem to have the best tools or the awareness that these kids are wired differently than they were and that they have to upgrade their skills and work outside of the box ... which I am not sure they are allowed to do...
    My youngest is in 6th grade in a public school (in Israel) and I am basically happy with the level and with her teacher this year... what i am not happy about is the class size... 36 kids... and the low grade of some of the specialized teachers...
    Last year I took her for the year to Toronto and paid for a private school and only 16 children in a classroom... it was an incredible experience for her and she was blessed with a truly gifted teacher... but not in all subjects...
    It is important today for children to be made aware of the infinite possibilities and talents that they have before them... and there are plenty of after school classes (at least in my neighborhood) where they can get a taste of astronomy, ballet, film, capoeira, electronics, sculpting.... etc. etc. to spark something within them...
    but when you need them to choose outfits (even at age 3)... my suggestion... 3 options max... otherwise you will never get them to school on time...
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