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Proving God!

It is not the job of a follower of God to prove his existence. Why would I waste time trying to convince a world created by God that he exists. This is especially wasteful when there are so many that do not need convincing and desire a relationship with Him. In all the conversations that I read on this post about evolution can basically be sumed up by saying "we dont know how life started we just think it happened this way". There is no proof on either side that is why it takes faith. Does it matter how much faith? No, it does not because it still takes faith. No matter how much proof I offer an antheist that there is a God and that His name is Jesus Christ will make them believe. they will not believe it until they get to the point where He is the only one to turn to. That point will come. It does for everyone and it will for the people all over the world that are atheist or any other ist or ian.

The Bible is very clear that at some point in time every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. It may not happen in this life but will certainly happen in the next and beliefs will not change that. I hope that it happens for people sooner than later but it does not always work out that way.

For the Christians I am not saying don't witness I am saying dont argue. It has never converted anyone. Believe me I did it for years and does not work. God changes hearts not your proof or arguments. The Bible also says be ready to give people an answer so put your efforts to studying Gods Word and work to become more like him. Then you will be ready for those that are really searching for truth and not just trying to poke holes in your beliefs.

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    Mar 6 2011: How is this a debate? In your last paragraph you encourage other Christians not to argue. This is neither a debate, a question or an idea, it's a rant. and it doesn't belong here.

    Matt, some people are actually interested in debating religion, you don't get to tell them not to just because they share the same religion as you. Furthermore, it is completely natural for someone to ask you to prove your premise if you use it to influence society, that is, you get involved in other people's lives, people who probably don't share your views on religion. The United States is a prime example of a country where religion is much too involve in how the country is run and so it's natural for people to demand an explanation.

    If you don't want to waste your time trying to prove God's existence or at least point towards evidence increasing the likelyhood of his existence, that's fine, but please let everyone else go about doing it if they wish to.
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      Mar 6 2011: Agreed.
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      Mar 7 2011: I'm with you on this one Matthieu. And oddly enough the TED community where for the most part we are all interested in each others lives and viewpoints, is really the last place for a rant as you say. We don't need to be bullied we are quite happy to enter into and good conversation.
    • May 3 2011: If TED is really just about sharing ideas, why shouldn't he be able to post a -so you call it- rant? He's not forcing anyone to do or not do anything, he's just sharing his ideas like anyone else who uses this website. He's not bullying anyone, he's just stating his opinion and the fact that he appears to be giving an order is irrelevant becuase no one is going to follow his orders just becuase they read it on ted. they're going to consider what he said and determine whether they agree with him or not. It is hyppocritical to tell him that his opinion is not welcome.
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        Jun 3 2011: There's a specific structure to TED. This is in no way a debate. The best fit might be (by some huge stretch of the imagination) the 'ideas' section. I never called into question his right to post what he did. I condemned his attitude which I am totally entitled to do. Also, I am guilty of no crime of hypocrisy so I don't know why you're calling me hypocritical. There are many threads that treat religious themes properly and this is where most enlightening contributions will be found.
    • Jul 14 2011: I do not think that you are wrong, I think Christians should stand up for what they believe, which is not inconsistent with what Matt said, yet his sounded a bit less harsh. I think his premise was more about the duty of Christians to go and share the love of God, and to spread his name peacefully. Rather then debating and arguing which truthfully, almost always ends up with one or both parties angered by the sharp tongues that are frankly, expected to result from religious debate. Matt even states, "Christians, I am not saying don't witness, just don't argue." But going into a debate, especially about religion, is never going to change anyone's views on it because the point of a debate is for each side to prove their point, going back and forth over and over again. The point of witnessing is to share God's love the best way you can (most likely not by arguing), and to help as many people come to know him so that they too can rejoice and celebrate with him one day. Christianity isn't about me going around trying to prove my religion to everyone, it is about going around and loving others and using my life, my actions, and my love to show them that I love them, that other Christians love them, and especially that God loves them.
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    Mar 6 2011: Matt, can YOU be a moral person if there were no God? (Morality is a personal thing so the question has to be placed directly to someone.)
    If your morality is based on your responses as judged by an authority, can you claim to be a moral being or are you an animal that has learned to perform on command?

    And to extend this further;
    Is it necessary for us to have an authority to provide us with a moral code for us to be good people?

    My answers;
    Yes, I can be a moral person in the absence of God.
    My morality is independent of authority.
    For Me, no. For You, I don't know.
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    Jun 2 2011: Faith to me is a nullification of all the marvelous discoveries human beings have made.
    Think of all the progress we have made.

    We used to believe, SINCERELY BELIEVE, that the earth is flat.
    We have come so far, and were only going to go so much further.

    Saying, "god needs no scientific proof" is essentially saying, "no matter how many ways you disprove god, there is this logic that exists that is better than whatever you humans can conceive."

    People who have faith throw all those hundreds of years of scientific discovery and advancement into the theoretical trash bin that exists within a fundamental theist's brain.

    According to christianity and the bible, (I don't know much about other religions, so this was a natural choice) Humans are the only intelligent life form in the entire universe. We are the world. We are everything that this universe can possibly conceive, yet we can only harness some simple irrelevant form of logic, with takes a backseat to this ludicrous set of principles which require no explanation.
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      Jun 2 2011: I like your thinking Cole.Very well argued!! You've zeroed in on the only answer I've ever heard religious people (not spiritual people, but people who have joined a church, etc.) give in response to what should be as plain as the nose on their face: "Because the bible'koran/etc. says so".

      As my mother used to say to me when I wasn't thinking correctly: "If someone walked off a cliff, would you follow them???"
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        Jun 2 2011: Thanks jim.
        greatly appreciated, seriously. Thank you :)
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          Jun 2 2011: Great to have you involved in TED conversations. Open minds can go anywhere! Stay engaged and follow your interests. Although it might not always feel like it, I believe the world is getting better all the time - the best is yet to come (unless you're planning on a religious vocation!!)
    • Jul 14 2011: As I said just above, Christianity is based on the belief in God as the father and Jesus his Son dying on the cross for our sins. Now, as a christian I am taught to love everyone, to treat them the way I want to be treated and to spread God's word and love with everyone. That is indeed the main idea of Christianity. Overall, Christianity is about doing what is right and good. Now, I know what your most likely thinking, "this has nothing to do with proving God." Well here is the thing, I plan on continuing to be a Christian the rest of my life, so when I die one of two things will happen. Either I die, get put in the ground, and simply get remembered as a person who tried to live as much of their life showing as much kindness as possible, OR everything I believe is actually true and I go to spend eternity with my loving lord and savior. Now for people who do not believe, they could die , go in the ground and simply be remembered as someone who pushed the limits and did everything they ever wanted, OR everything I believe is actually true and they don't get to enjoy "the roads paved with gold," if you know what I mean. The question is, is that a risk you are willing to take with eternity. SO I guess to me its kinda like, " yeah, I don't have irrefutable evidence that I can present to you of God, but to me, needing proof that God is real is like needing a reason to be a good person and do the right thing. If I'm wrong I lose nothing, but if I'm right I gain everything. Besides, once you make a conscience effort to have an actual relationship with God, the proof of his existence becomes overwhelming and truly undeniable. You just need a little faith to make that first step, just like every decision to a certain extent requires a little bit of faith in yourself or another. Again, I know this is no proof, but I just saw the frustration you seemed to have about this and wanted to offer you some sort of explanation, from a christian's set of eyes. God Bless.
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    Apr 22 2011: "To believe of God's word only what checks with your limited experience, to trust God only as far as we can control him by our feeble reasoning, to accept his revelations only where they square with our calculations: that is not faith but suspicion and doubt." - Hugh Nibley
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    Mar 24 2011: Hi Matt

    I'm sure glad that you weren't the guy I approached on this whole Jesus deal. I needed answers to very hard questions & thankfully there were enough folks around to give me some. It is true that I eventually had to get answers from god himself, but it is unlikely that I would ever have made it that far without patient Christians.

    Folks on this site, for the most part, are immersed in evolution. They have spent years studying it & have 'learned' that it is the truth of our origins. Any Christian here can expect a rough ride; we are lilly livered numpties who just don't know any better. But Jesus loves evolutionists, & how will they know unless someone tells them ?

    One of my pals is a PhD biologist, who is now saved; after many years of myself & others 'arguing' with him. Noah preached for 100 years & no-one got saved. It is God who saves, but He just loves us to do our bit. Don't give up on the evolutionists.

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    Apr 23 2011: Proving God would destroy the need for faith.

    Faith is a form of hope.

    Proving that God does not exist would not destroy faith - people would continue to believe in something bigger.
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    Mar 24 2011: German Philosopher Ludwig Feuerbach (1804 - 1872):"But God is nothing other than the abstracted, phantasmagoric essence of man and nature, hypostatised by the imagination; hence theism sacrifices the real life and nature of things and of men to a being who is a mere product of thought and imagination. Thus atheism is positive and affirmative; it gives back to nature and mankind the dignity of which theism has despoiled them; it restores life to nature and mankind, which theism had drained of their best powers. God, as we have seen, is jealous of nature and man; He wants man to honour, love, and serve Him alone; He wants everything else to be nothing and Himself alone to be something; in other words, theism is jealous of man and the world and begrudges them any good. Envy, ill will, and jealousy are destructive, negative passions. Atheism, on the other hand, is liberal, open-handed, open-minded; an atheist acknowledges every being’s will and talent; his heart delights in the beauty of nature and the virtue of man: joy and love do not destroy, they are life-giving, affirmative."
  • Mar 23 2011: I'm not sure I understand. Are you proposing a debate on whether to evangelize or not?
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    Mar 7 2011: If your argument was that no one can determine how the original cell came into existence then the debate could exist on whether there is a creator or not, but you are sourcing something that can be dated but not proved.

    You have a circular defense which requires faith to explain something that cannot be physically explained AT ALL.

    The christian god cannot be real and Jesus has been proven time and time over to have been an idea created by man.

    Honestly people like you prevent progress in my opinion; you teach your kids absolution when there is no such thing except the absolution the individual creates, but if you tell them you do not need to create and here is the answer that is denying A LOT of free thought possibilities.
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    Mar 7 2011: This is of course your opinion Matt, is it not? Your faith is commendable but it is in the end only an opinion.
  • Mar 6 2011: You"ve just damaged the idea you try to back, no one of TED's convinced atheists could do it better.
  • Mar 6 2011: I think Matt is a bit misguided, his passion to believe is obvious and I must agree that if he gets satisfaction from his faith then why shoudn't he. His writing alas only convinces me that God didn't create man, it is man who created God. Forget faith for a bit and let us look at the facts! Life when it first began must have been a dormant life, it has to begin at square 1. This being so, all life must have inherited traits from that beginning, if these could be found, this would prove without doubt about our origins. The subconscious works 24/7, 16hrs absorbing our emotions and 8hrs using them when we sleep. The conscious part only works 16/7, when we are awake. The subconscious, in natures greater scheme of things, seems by far the most important. Without the subconscious, where would we keep our memory, how would we remember what to eat and where to find it? Life could not exist and this includes all life whether its sleeps or not. When we dream, most of what we dream about can be related to our everyday experiences, but there are times when we have a dream and there is no explanation, a time when the subconscious is in full control of its own world! This could be the dormancy that we have inherited from our distant ancestor and all life must have this inherited trait! I wish Mattthe best in his beliefs and the comfort he gets, but I would like to say one thing, being an atheist does not cloud my judgment about what is wrong and what is right. I try to live my life as a decent and law abiding citizen, helping others when the occasion arises. There is no difference morally between the believers and the unbelievers.
  • Jun 20 2011: Proving God by Imam Sadiq (`a):

    Pearls of Wisdom
    Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (`a)

    Narrated by his companion

    Mufaddal ibn `Umar

    Chapter 1

    Chapter 2
    First Session - The Human Being

    Chapter 3
    Second Session - The Animal Kingdom

    Chapter 4
    Third Session - The Environment

    Chapter 5
    Fourth Session - The Natural Disasters

    [if you not read it you have lost your life.]
  • Jun 20 2011: who designed so advanced human body?
    nature? so nature is other name of God.
    nature does nature has wisdom and think.

    why one head?
    why two eye?
    why human can speak?
  • Mar 8 2011: ......."there can be no letter without a scribe, no law without a legislator"........

    Similarly, a house cannot arise without a builder, particularly a house adorned with miraculous works of art, wondrous designs, and amazing ornaments. As much art has been put into one of its stones as into a whole palace. No intelligence will accept that it could arise without a builder; definitely it needs a master architect. Moreover, within the building, veritable rooms take shape and change each hour with the utmost order and ease, just as if clothes were being changed, or as if scenes were passing across a cinema screen. We can say even that numerous little rooms are constantly being created in each of those scenes.

    In like manner, the cosmos also requires an infinitely wise, all-knowing and all-powerful maker. For the magnificent cosmos is a palace that has the sun and the moon as its lamps and the stars as its candles; time is like a rope or ribbon hung within it, on to which the Glorious Creator each year threads a new world. And within the world that He thus threads on the string of time He places three hundred and sixty fresh and orderly forms. He changes them with the utmost orderliness and wisdom. He has made the face of the earth a bounteous spread that He adorns each spring with three hundred thousand species of creation, that He fills with innumerable kinds of generous gifts. This He does in such a fashion that they all stand apart from each other, quite separate and distinct, despite their being at the same time so close and intermingled. Is it possible to overlook the existence of the Maker of such a palace?
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    Mar 8 2011: The debate is not a cellular one, but a spiritual one.
    One needs the other, the other does not.
    It's not, "Does God exist?" It's, "Is God existence?" I lean to the latter.
  • Mar 7 2011: You must reading..... RİSALEİ NUR."THE WORDS-The Twenty-Second Word" In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.So God sets forth parables for men, so that they may bear [them] in mind * Such are the similitudes which we propound to men that they may reflect.One time two men were washing in a pool. Under some extraordinary influence they lost their senses and when they opened their eyes, they saw that it had transported them to a strange land. It was such that with its perfect order it was like a country, or rather a town, or a palace. They looked around themselves in complete bewilderment: if it was looked at in one way, a vast world was apparent; if in another, a well-ordered country; and if in another, a fine town. And if it was looked at in still another way, it was a palace which comprised a most magnificent world. Travelling around this strange world, they observed it and saw that creatures of one sort were speaking in a fashion, but they did not understand their language. Nevertheless, it was understood from their signs that they were performing important works and duties.One of the two men said to his friend: "This strange world must have someone to regulate it, and this orderly country must have a lord, and this fine town, an owner, and this finely made palace, a master builder. We must try to know him, for it is understood that the one who brought us here was he. If we do not recognize him, who will help us? What can await from these impotent creatures whose language we do not know and who do not heed us? Moreover, surely one who makes a vast world in the form of a country, town, and palace, and fills it from top to bottom with wonderful things, and embellishes it with every sort of adornment, and decks it out with instructive miracles wants something from us and from those that come here. We must get to know him and find out what he wants."The other man said: "I do not believe it, that there .......(continue)First Statİon
  • Mar 6 2011: i believe in god, but i don't think he is Jesus. he is a disciple of god, not god. why would god come to earth and die on a cross for our sins? the bible has 41 authors, (one of them god) and versions that are different from one another. not a single sentence in the bible said that Jesus is god. Jesus never said himself that he is god. if everyone would confess that Jesus christ is god in the end of time, what diffrence would it make? i can see why you haven't converted anyone. yes, faith matters, especially when you put them on a guy, not god.
  • Mar 6 2011: God exists or does not exist because we believe or don't believe. Facts and faith are forever at odds.
  • Mar 6 2011: Does it really matter what a person believes (or disbelieves) as long as they harm no one, or thing, in their lives? If you were drowning & an Atheist reached out their hand to help, would you reject it? I seriously doubt you would.
    I care not who or what a person believes in as long as it gets them through their day & no one or thing is harmed along the way.
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      Mar 23 2011: Interesting concept Gale

      Noah & his sons reached out to drowning Atheists, but got no takers. We have a similar situation today; there is a judgement coming, & we are reaching out. This life is only the departure lounge.

  • Mar 6 2011: Many likes to prove there is only one religion and only one God..