- Manue M
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Do you think you would change your belief or create yourself a new belief in extreme conditions?
I feel I need to split my questions.
- for those who used to not believe, and even for those who still don t believe in higher being or soul and so on, but have created themselves mystical stories, images or illusions, I would love to hear your story if you would like to share it!
- For atheists and agnostics: do you think your mind might one day play new tricks on you to save you from depression or death for exemple? Do you think you would create yourself a mystical belief or imagine mystical stories in order to support hard events like the loss of a child for example? Do you think it would benefit you even thus you might say to yourself it is your mind and body playing tricks on you? What do you think about pretending? Is it a bit like putting a plastic plant in a bedroom to trick you mind and help you be calmer, more relax and happier? What other ways might you use to survive?
- For theists: appart from the dogma and the doctrine, do you ever question your belief? What made you believe? Can you imagine what would change for you if during a minute you did not believe or if you changed your mystical belief?
May every comment be constructive and tolerant. Thank you!
Comment deleted
Manue M
Peter Law 10+
I guess my story comes under your general heading. I have always been keen to find out what the world was about; who & what am I etc. I researched all the avenues I could & settled on evolution as the best bet, although I was never a 'true believer'. I believed the religious stereotypes of needy people needing a crutch, wishful thinking etc. So I knew the bible was a waste of time.
When I was 35 my wife was having very bad asthma attacks. One night in the ambulance she gave her heart to Jesus. Unknown to me, she had been speaking to neighbour about it. So a life crisis changed her life. this gave me my own little crisis however. Here I was frequenting one of the most straight-laced Scottish Churches that existed at that time. I was cornered; but no matter, I was sure I could prove to my wife what a lot of balconies she had bought into. I confronted the minister with all the 'science' I could come up with. This was not a strong point with him, but he gave me a couple of what would now be called creationist books. These books changed my life; I had never come across information like this. Over a period of 6 months the enormity of the truth I had discovered sunk in. These are not fables to make me feel better; this is the eternal truth of the universe, that our creator loves us & wants us to love Him back. Wow !
But for our little crisis I would have remained blissfully ignorant. Thanks for asking.
:-)
Manue M
David Barnett 10+
Rhona Pavis 30+
Edward Webber
"Do you think your mind might one day play new tricks on you to save you from depression or death for example?"
No. I have suffered from depression and not once thought to myself "This makes me want to believe in a supernatural being" - Why would such a thing even cross my mind? I don't walk around thinking "I should believe in unicorns". Deluding myself would not improve my circumstances. Quite the opposite, it would stop me from searching for an actual solution.
"Do you think you would create yourself a mystical belief or imagine mystical stories in order to support hard events like the loss of a child for example?"
I'm confused by your question. How would deluding myself improve the loss of my child?
"Do you think it would benefit you even thus you might say to yourself it is your mind and body playing tricks on you?"
Again, how is a mental disorder (delusion) a benefit? Not to mention, you cannot simultaneously believe something and not believe it. You are either delusional or not.
"What do you think about pretending?"
I see no need for it, as reality is plenty interesting. I do enjoy speculation, such as science fiction. Pure fantasy, such as Lord of The Rings, I find detrimental to the mental well being of humanity. It plants seeds which, to an already mentally ill person, can be sewn into a fabric of delusion of which there is little hope of return.
"Is it a bit like putting a plastic plant in a bedroom to trick you mind and help you be calmer, more relax and happier?"
No, it isn't. Plastic plants, as an example, are meant to remind you of the real thing, not as a means to escape reality. You do not believe that plastic plant is alive, you enjoy it reminding you of the living plant.
"What other ways might you use to survive?"
No "other" ways about it, I use deeds to survive. Delusion doesn't feed you, action does. In fact, delusion ensures whatever action you do take (if any at all) is more likely to be unhelpful.
Manue M
I would be truly interested to know what you thought about this research which found that Placebo pills work on patients even when the patient is told he is taking a placebo?
Researchers at Harvard Medical School’s (HMS) Osher Research Center and Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (BIDMC) 2010.
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/12/placebos-work-—-even-without-deception/
Thank you.
Edward Webber
Manue M
I do not think the green plant works to lower stress because it reminds us of anything. I think it works because it deceives us. I say that because according to pr richard wiseman,studies are showings that it does not work with posters showing nature. I would need more references to support that, but I read that in "59seconds" by pr Richard wiseman p 129 to 133. There you can find the references of the different researches.
Edward Webber
When I gave my answer to your plant question, it seemed obvious to me, so now you have me wondering. Here is what I think happens, but I am not basing this on any lab research.
Take a fake plant. it is 3-dimentional, has texture, takes up space, has roughly the same rigidity as the real thing. This physical item would appeal to multiple senses, so the emotional impact of the real item would be recalled quite clearly.
Now take a picture.. A picture of the same plant would not register with any senses, as real plants are not 2-dimentional, so even the sight would be different. Your brain is essentially focusing so much effort on recalling a real plant it would have less "processing power" left over to provide an emotional response equal to that of the fake plant, let alone the real thing. Essentially, there is very little to recall with the poster plant, a 2-d object with no texture or structure, sharing no similarities with the real thing beside the colors.
Using this theory, I could postulate the more lifelike the item, the stronger the emotional response obtained. So:
a picture < a life-size poster < a 3-d model < a life-size model < the real thing
This would work equally for a serene object (eg: a flower arrangement) vs an objectionable object (a severed head)
This is a guess, and I could be completely wrong as I'm basing this only on what I currently know, but I'm curious if anyone has a study which explain exactly how, and to what extent, fake objects affect us.
I'll check out that Richard Wiseman as well. Thanks for the citation.
Manue M
I think you will be happy to know richard wiseman also wrote:
Paranormality: why we see what isn't there
I read it too.
This is what Dawkins says about his book:
"people are emotionally drawn to the supernatural. They actively want weird, spooky things to be true... Wiseman shows us a higher joy as he deftly skewers the paranormal charlatans, blows away the psychic fog and lets in the clear light of reason."
I also like, in a complete different style and approach, books like "the big bang" by brian clegg for example.
Manue M
If I watch the award winning movie Gandhi (ok not a fiction), I live it and it has an impact on my future behavior, it inspires me. If I watch a fiction like slum dog millionaire, I live it too. And many questions arise. And it has a relative impact on my life. I am always careful with what images my kids come across with. Because some of them, i don t want them to "take". I think a taylor made story with mystical references and told as truth is dangerous, but taylor made stories with mystical references told as being just fictive stories can help. They can remind us of the real thing (symbolic) or deceive our mind for a moment and help us adopt new perspectives. You can take the symbol from them. Now, I think that depending on the level of understanding of people, and their culture, some interpret symbols differently. Another example that come in my mind is the movie " another earth" winner of the sundance 2011. some will say, what if there was another earth, etc... What if we exist in parallel worlds? Some people will just think wow: how much free will do we have in life. What makes us be good or bad people? Etc.. Or you can look at the whole movie and think all of that together. But in any case, you can get something out of the story, and it can help look at your life in a different way. By the way, I cried from the beginning to the end of the movie! Haha!
Manue M
Jonnie Barratt
You know, without going too crazy, I agree we you. It appears a peculiar phenomenon to me but I do actually think whoever, or whatever, you perceive yourself to be you normally become. There is a phrase "surround yourself with millionaires, and you will become a millionaire yourself". I think the phrase is true and that these two situation are very well connected.
I would also like to thank you for your kind words, and a different take on a record label? - I think I know what needs to be done :)
Jonnie Barratt
Can I just say I found your response fascinating. You spoke of delusion, lying to ones self and my favourite, "I don't walk around thinking "I should believe in unicorns"". I completely understand why you talk down some the more, seemingly absurd, beliefs but a few questions come flooding to me.
1) where is the line between reality and belief? Is there not a point where it is quite simply a kind of emotional target setting?
2) Would you not agree that being positive about a situation can vastly improve the quality of the outcome, and at what point can one be too positive resulting in a delusional mannor?
3)Do you think you find enjoyment in science fiction because you might imagine a similar happy ending for yourself?
4)And do you really not set targets - emotional or not - that you could help you achieve such an ending? Is it so that you do not have any targets which could pertain to a "delusional" outcome, here say, from an outside perspective?
Sorry if I seem a little forward, it is not my intention to step on your toes. I just had a load of questions to fire off and would be thrilled for your response :).
Thanks
Jon
Edward Webber
I'm glad you found my response thought provoking. After all, that is pretty much the reason I post them. I appreciate forward responses, so there is no need to feel uncomfortable about them.
"where is the line between reality and belief? Is there not a point where it is quite simply a kind of emotional target setting?"
The line between reality and belief is crossed when the belief is supported by reality. I can believe something, have tons of evidence, and still be wrong. All it takes for a belief to be nullified is a single piece of contradictory evidence. Where delusion comes into play is when there is either no or contradictory evidence and the belief is held anyway
"Would you not agree that being positive about a situation can vastly improve the quality of the outcome, and at what point can one be too positive resulting in a delusional manner?"
I do agree positive thinking does help motivate. Delusion comes into play when you ignore the reality of a situation, such as negative factors and outcomes. In short, when you take unnecessary risks. Rushing into a burning building to save a child, ignoring the risks, doesn't improve your odds of success. It prevents you from considering wiser options. Sure, you may succeed, which some people claim as a "miracle", but using a ladder from the outside doesn't require such luck
"Do you think you find enjoyment in science fiction because you might imagine a similar happy ending for yourself?"
There need not be a happy ending for it to be enjoyable for me. I enjoy the thought provocation of it, such as "How could a photon torpedo be built?". Most science fiction is based at least partly in reality, so it presents research topics.
"And do you really not set targets that could help you achieve such an ending?"
As in goals to achieve? Sure I do. I simply base them in evidence and research. Guesses need not be arbitrary. Delusion only begins when you ignore the evidence or inflate the odds of a guess
Cheers
Jonnie Barratt
Would you mind if we brought probability into this? First I would like to start by talking about the lottery - which I would imagine you do not play yourself, neither do I - but I think this would probably sum up quite nicely your idea of delusional thinking. I am of course assuming that (although not imposible) - the probability of winning is low, enough to suggest that playing to win is not logical. But people still play.
Now If we consider being a famous musician, millions of people all over the world play instruments, sing, but only a handful make a booming career out of it. From an Initial look, the probability is low. Obviously there is a lot less control over this scenario than the lottery, I understand that. But is it not down to the mindset? Are they really just lottery winners? Or did they think in a way which enabled them to keep going, against the odds. Was it this wishful/delusional thinking which actually put them in a minority, thus increasing the possibility of success instantly, and were able to give themselves that - maybe even likely - chance.
Could you tell someone who wanted to be, say a popstar, that they couldn't because of the unlikely probability? - or at least think it in you head. Or would you accept the fact that going about it in the right way could actually give them a very likely chance. I would like to discredit things such as looks and treat the ability to sing as an instrument, in an attempt to steer the conversation away from luck.
Perhaps we are just talking risk and reward. I do not know.
Thanks
Jon
Manue M
I think attitude has something to do with success. Attitude is one of the greatest lesson I have learned in life.
- First, you could pick up something that you love to do ( unfortunately, that is not what everybody does)
- second you need self esteem and self confidence ( you can build it, you can also pretend that this is the way you are, and become self confident on the long term too... I have not got the references to the study here). Believe in yourself, in you project.
- work step by step
- work work work ( it does not have to be hard, if you picked up your passion) on a regular base. So maybe I should say have fun have fun have fun in your field
- you could listen to constructive critics, ignore any other critics from people
- a life review is also great even if you are young. Understand why your parents where the way they are, what childhood they had etc...
In my opinion you have more chances to be happy and excel in something that you love, but where there is great competition, than if you picked the thing nobody wants to do, including yourself. Well, you could become rich and famous that way, but maybe not happy and fulfilled with life.
Now, you might start from one point and end up doing something a little bit different but that you still love.
in the opinion of quite a lot of thinkers, this century will be about creativity (and spirituality? I did not say religion) Also, more and more people will be able to use tools to record their own creations. More and more people will be able to diffuse their own creations.
In my opinion, you need to rethink the concept of record labeling in order to succeed.
Be creative!
Good luck!
Edward Webber
"Would you mind if we brought probability into this?"
I think this entire discussion is profoundly interesting. It is always nice to have such ideas brought out for debate and reconciliation with other peoples' experiences and data.
"First I would like to start by talking about the lottery - the probability of winning is low, enough to suggest that playing to win is not logical."
This may surprise you, but I don't agree. Yes, there are billions of more likely ways to let your money make you money, but there is no lack of logic in the lottery. There is a known chance of success. To many, it is an easily attainable goal of short term happiness
"Now If we consider being a famous musician, .. only a handful make a booming career out of it. Are they really just lottery winners? Or did they think in a way which enabled them to keep going."
Unlike the lottery, there are many avenues people have for social success. Even a poor performer can be made successful through advertising, rumors and misdirection. Think politics. Positive thinking may help motivate, but motivation is non-directional, even blinding, and can just as easily lead to misfortune and wasted effort.
"Could you tell someone who wanted to be, say a popstar, that they couldn't because of the unlikely probability? - or at least think it in you head?"
To say they can't would be an assumption. Anyone _can_ be. Knowing the odds allows a person to more clearly plan out their path of action. I wouldn't even support a reported lottery winner in quitting their day job until they cashed in their ticket.
"..going about it in the right way could give them a very likely chance."
Seeing as there are only so many 'Top 40' charts and 6+ billion people, the odds will never be "likely". Timing and mass psychology can also be as important as talent. A #1 hit in 1940 may not even make the Top 100 today.
Jonnie Barratt
Thanks for the reply, it has been most interesting.
I am surprised you do not agree about the lottery, and more so at your reasoning. You seem to have suggested that playing the lottery is a logical use of a pound because there is a known way of winning, 1/14,000,000 (well it used to be, probably more now). And that to be "delusional" there must be clear-cut impossibility. Now, if you are working on odds of 1/14,000,000 being reasonable/logical, I would not only take you for a wildly aspirational risk taker, but perhaps delusional thinker. I would also expect a lot more faith - or uncertainty - about the possibility of mindset, positive thinking or even Gods. My point is, if people truly new the scale of 14,000,000 nobody would play. But that said, it is not a very easy thing to do. Unless of course your were talking about the endorphines or dopamine released on buying a ticket, due to the chance of a win - but again, I feel knowledge of 14,000,000 would fail to trigger the chemical release (This is of course, only my opinion).
Completely open to you interpretation of motivation.
Yeah, fair point, but the number of people getting into studios and trying is not 6+ billion. I am sure some no.1's were hummed by an urchin on the street that never materialised. As for the 1940, it is like tennis - so hard to compare the sport from the past to the present because the technology is so different.
And your final paragraph and bullet points I thoroughly enjoyed. Certainly no one could find disagreement in that!
Edward Webber
- A downhill skier who falls, injuring themselves and subsequently places last in the Olympics, skied in the Olympics.
- A student who graduates last in medical school is still a doctor.
- A lottery player who loses every single time throughout their life paid very little for the excitement of playing.
I suppose the moral of this is, you are your only measure of success. So long as you are not subtracting from the happiness of others, everything can be icing on the cake of life.
Edward Webber
To put it another way, to be delusional, there must be a belief in something which isn't.
If I play the lottery and think the odds of winning are likely, I would be delusional. If I play the lottery in order to have a reason to speculate on what winning may feel like, and what I would do with all of the prizes, I am not playing to win, I am playing for a reason to speculate on a positive outcome. I need not think I am likely to win to enjoy the speculation of it.
The same logic can be used with something more close to home for you:
When an aspiring pop star spends time creating lyrics for a song, they can speculate on what may happen if those lyrics become a hit. Will those lyrics become a hit? The chances are remote, but they need not even make any further steps to actually becoming a pop star in order to enjoy the speculation, as they have created an evidentiary basis in which the speculation is possible, seeing as pop hits have lyrics. Now, if they begin making choices based on them being a pop star they have crossed the line from evidence based speculation (commonly referred to as daydreaming) into delusion.
"Now, if you are working on odds of 1/14,000,000 being reasonable/logical, I would not only take you for a wildly aspirational risk taker, but perhaps delusional thinker."
If you are playing to win, I would question it being a *reasonable* choice with long odds such as those. Though I stand behind the assertion of it being logical, as there is a known chance of winning, combined with evidence of people winning. It would be delusional to think you have any chance of winning a lottery you do not enter, no matter how many SPAM emails claim otherwise ;). Obviously, sinking your life savings into playing is hardly wise, but we aren't talking wisdom, we are talking logic, and purchasing more entries does logically increase your odds of winning
joy faber
I think until we create social institutions which work as well or better than religious institutions we should keep them, in spite of all the conflict and controversy. This is not to say I think we should encourage suicide bombers or right wing politics, the majority of believers are good citizens who work hard and desire a peaceful environment in which to raise their families. It would be unjust to try to strip away embedded social networks which help so many people without building something of greater value to take its place.
Edward Webber
For those of us in the USA, there is no means to get the benefits a church enjoys tax-wise. Churches can survive indefinitely without paying a dime in taxes, receive tax-deductible donations from the public and enjoy many others exemptions from otherwise universal laws. There is simply no means to compete with them as a non-delusional person. You either must claim you are delusional or pay for everything plus taxes.
I do disagree on churches being filled with "good citizens", as they promote an exclusive, rather than an inclusive, club of people who are encouraged to be hostile to outsiders in almost all forms of religion. Many encourage hostility toward those inside the religion as well (think "sinners"). If you truly want an example, tell all of those "good people" you know you are an now an atheist and watch how they treat you reverse course almost entirely for the vast majority of them.
At worst, an atheist is likely to view a religious person as having an annoying habit. My neighbor is a Jehovah's Witness, a religion I consider the worst of the worst, due to their aggressive indoctrination style, but he and I get along pretty well as long as he keeps his religion out of my business. There is no exclusivity in atheism. We're all just people who see no reason to believe in the supernatural.
When, at some point it will happen, the USA finally either removes the tax exemption from houses of worship or adds one to houses of community, I think we'll all begin seeing a much smaller percentage of people feeling forced to make the choice both you and I made, which is to either have community and get lectured at or be alone and live free of indoctrination. There will finally be a third option of community without expectation, and without exclusivity.
Thanks for your posting. I enjoyed reading it.
Leonard white
With this in mind I have noticed that I become a lot more superstitious in stressfull situations.
When the possible outcomes are particularily 'Bi-polar'. For example, when about to take off in a plane I am particilarily more focused on omens and the power of positive thought.
There is a different kind of praying too, willing an object not to break or not to hit that person over there.
There is nothing to support that shouting at a brick to "stop" will make it stop but I will shout it all the same. Admittedly there is here a visceral response system at work but I do believe that within this is an attemt to change the physical world using will power.
Manue M
Jonnie Barratt
I feel I know exactly what you are getting at, and have thought myself the same on many occasions. Unfortunately for you, I am young and naive, so the credibility to which I can attribute my response renders my reply - somewhat - a metaphorical sieve. But I have a voice, so I will use it.
First where I stand before I answer your brilliant (and quite frankly well written) question.
I am not sure if I am atheist or agnostic for the following reason. (I think) If there is a greater being I do not feel my belief in it's existence will bare any relevance to my life or after I am dead - it could well be there - but it does not effect my decisions. I am never going to know.
I think religion/belief of all kinds ARE real for those individual people, because they influence their physical decision on the world which we ALL exist. It would not make sense to talk down someones god infront of them, because - in a rather extreme scenario - it could claim your life. Real.
To finally answer your question. Yes I think I absolutely would. Personally I have always thought about it as "brainwashing" or "rewiring" your own brain. When stuck at university I put aside everything everybody expected of me and brainwashed myself into chasing my dream, which I am consequently doing - If it crashes and burns I will let you know, and we can talk about the dangers of false hope/belief - but I don't think it will :)
More importantly, I would do it for other people. In times of serious hardship I would like to think stories, true or false, were told to make people achieve the unimaginable and find happiness in the darkest of places, regardless of the stories initial credibility. So I guess what I am saying is the power of belief is very real, and very rarely - if ever - is it designed to destroy the quality of life for others, and anything that does I would call misguidance or misinterpretation. And perhaps that is the danger or the power of belief changing in an instant.
Manue M
Some researchers have shown that in some conditons, placebo works even when you say " take this placebo, it will help you". (program in placebo studies, Harvard medical school, 2010).
Jonnie Barratt
Your last "what if?" is crazy! If we translate that back to my scenario: I find it hard to believe I will succeed in my dream even if I know I can't, but it isn't half brilliant to know there is still a chance! haha.
Manue M
Maybe you are saying to yourself, my dream will come true when my label is worldwide famous and brings in a lot of money? In which case you might think it is unlikely to work out. If yes, i think you should look at your dream like a kid. And say, i will create a record label just for fun because this is what i love doing. And if each day you do something that goes in that direction, taking things step by step, focusing on your passion... I think you will be successful.
Jonnie Barratt
Thank you very much for your kind words! I have to say that is a brilliant way to do things, just for fun, a hobby or what-have-you, and take it step-by-step and enjoy the ride. Not a bad philosophy for life I feel!
Krisztián Pintér 100+
Manue M
I want to tell you a story, which is not my story, it is just an example.
Lets say, you are a woman (!), and you are atheist, you are pregnant, you have a baby at a late age. That baby is profoundly handicapped to the point that at 18 months, the baby cannot see, hold his head, talk, eat, be breastfed and needs to be taken care of 24 hours/7 days a week. You cannot sleep more than a few hours at night and that drives you crazy and you become depressive. How can you cope with this, at least in the first few years of life of your child when you are unprepared to this? and that you are an atheist? Would it make sense to decide to pretend that you believe lets say in reincarnation for example, in order to give some meaning to the situation? Can you pretend to believe and can it work? There are other ways do deal with that kind of situation. Which one can you think about? Thanks!
Mary M. 50+
Here I go: Humans question everything all the time, including our beliefs. It is normal.
As a theist, I have questioned what I belief in countless times.
As a matter of fact, if I didn't question or test my faith, I would not be applying the counsel found in scripture: "Keep testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are" second letter to the corinthians chap thirteen verse five.
By not continuously testing who we are and what we believe in, we run the risk of having a "form of godly devotion, but proving false to it's power"....the consequences....."people would turn away from us and consider us hypocrites"...these are not my words, they are scriptural and found in the second letter of timothy chapter three and verse five.
Many of us recognize that doubt is something healthy, and when faced with an extreme situation, doubting and questioning our beliefs is a good thing, because then we have the task to convince ourselves.......this I feel is very important.
I think (my opinion) that some who used to believe, no longer do. This is because they had credulity, and not faith. They are two separate things. Also, there are some who never believed, but have turned to searching.
Bottom Line: Yes, we can, and should change our beliefs, if we are convinced that they are wrong. We just don't know everything. We need to keep an opened mind.
Great question.
Manue M
what do you think about an atheist who is confronted to a terribly difficult situation in life and who decides to find comfort by pretending he believes, let s say in reincarnation? It is not about judging a person, but understanding what happen s in our mind and the ways we find to survive. What do you think?
Mary M. 50+
A friend's neighbor died last week, and I went by to offer my condolenses. I was hit with every cliche in the book..."it was her time, she is in a better place, we can't fight destiny, and so on." He does not practice any religion....but repeats these beliefs in order to cope.
When faced with such sad situations what any human needs is a listening ear and hugs and practical help. I offered him a hug, listened attentively and told him if he needed anything to let us know. What else can one do.....the grieving process is a very personal thing.
Manue, the human heart and mind is fragile, and it has been my observation that at times various survival mechanisms kick in to help us deal with tragedies.
Surviving is very important Manue.....so if believing in reincarnation helps you get by, then so be it.
Others choose to go searching for something that has the ring of truth.....and devote time to studying different faiths......Christendom's faiths, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.....in a hope to find something solid to put faith in.
Sadly some turn to terrible habits in order to "forget" their troubles......this is not healthy of course.
So, if believing in reincarnation helps you survive, emotionally and mentally, then why not?
But remember, there is a risk to be had when we take refuge in a lie. Also, keep an opened mind, you never know if you will find something that helps you have real faith.......and not just soon to be forgotten beliefs.
I have tried to be kind with my words. I am only speaking based on your general information. I hope I have helped you.
Be Well Manue.
Manue M
Some recent researches (program in placebo studies, harward school of medicine, 2010) have shown that you can give a placebo to someone and say " this is a placebo, it will help you feel better" and under certain conditions, it does help. Giving a placebo and not telling the patient is not very ethical. It looks like there is an good alternative to that. It could also work with other very different kind of placebos, not just pills. What do you think about that idea?
Mary M. 50+
What other different kinds of placebos?
Manue M
It could also refrain fragile people from joining dangerous gurus for example.
Mary M. 50+
There is a book I read a while back called "Smoke Jumper" by Nicholas Evans. In it there is a young teenage girl who is very troubled. The camp counselor tells her a story about some wolves. It is very interesting how the girl took to story, and applied it's moral lesson. I was very surprised at the outcome. I will try to get the book from the library and find the exact story and share it with you.
I think that when people are troubled with life, some face the troubles and fight with them. Others turn around and walk away...others try to find answers in "placebos".....stories, religions, vices etc...to cope. Out of calamity can come a new understanding of who we are and what we stand for. We discover new things about ourselves and others.
This topic is very interesting. I am no expert in this field. I hope you realize that. I am only sharing my own life experience with you. Don't go quoting me in any book LOL :) sometimes I make no sense at all.
Thanks.
Manue M
About the placebo. I think it would be interesting if the placebo-story was told by someone specialized in medicine.
Edward Webber
By definition, a placebo is neither harmful nor therapeutic. Religion and what you call "vices" do much more than nothing.
Mary M. 50+
I agree, religion and vices do much harm in some cases because the hurting one puts their refuge in a lie, which may sooner or later comes back to hurt them.
You know, I have never read up on the long term uses of actual placebos (medicine). How long do doctors keep these tests going? And what are the psychological effects if the patient discovers on their own that it was a placebo and not the actual medicine?
I think Manue has an interesting idea....it is too bad she is in China, and not closeby to sit and have a cup of tea and swap stories.
Thanks Edward for your input, I hope Manue reads it.
Edward Webber
I was under the impression their use is limited to blind trials (and double blind, obviously). Not so!
"Almost half of the 231 respondents — 45% — said they had prescribed placebos in regular clinical practice"
I also would be curious what the longest use of a placebo has been and the outcome. It seems always assumed that placebos make a control group, but there is obviously a mental connection to the placebo (as the Harvard study noted). Would such a thing lead to psychological ills as these people would wonder why nothing was helping or physical ills where they begin living as though the pill was a fix for something which was essentially remaining untreated?
Mary M. 50+
He responded to me, I wrote back, and he proceeded to reply again. Read our conversations.
Sorry for the mix-up.
Manue M
Mary M. 50+
I found the story I want to share with you. It was told to a troubled teen who was depressed and angry at the world....she was controlled by her own view of life and was a victim of her past. Here goes....
The Wolf and the Rock (taken from pp87-88 Smoke Jumper Nicholas Evans)
One day a little wolf cub named Nooshka-Lalooshka was chasing a chipmunk and ran into a rock and really hurt himself and all the other wolves laughed at him. The chipmunk got away and Nooshka-Lalooshka felt embarrased and mad and he tod the others that he'd meant to crash into the rock and it hadn't hurt one little bit.
So they said, okay, if it didn't hurt, do it again. And so as not to lose face, he did. And this time it hurt even more and he got this big bloody bruise on his chest but the other wolves roared with laughter and said how funny he was and how tough he must be.
And from then on whenever the wolves got bored, they'd say, hey, Nooshka-Lalooshka, do your rock trick for us! And if he said he didn't want to, they'd taunt him and tell him he was chicken and so to prove he wasn't, he'd crash into the rock again.
And his wound never had time to heal and as he grew older it got worse and worse and infected his leg so that he began to walk with a limp and he got thinner and thinner too because soon he couldn't run fast enough to keep up with the pack when they all went hunting.
The others gave him a little of what they caught but only on condition that he'd do his rock trick for them and so he'd do it, just to get fed, still pretending it didn't hurt, until one day he found he couldn't run at all and could only, kind of collapse onto the rock instead of crashing into it and the other wolves got bored and said it wasn't fun to watch anymore.
They told him he was of no use to the pack because he couldn't hunt and now that he couldn't even entertain them, why should they feed him?
And they banished him from the pack.........continued below
Mary M. 50+
Well, he got thinner and thinner and sadder and sadder. And soon he didn't want to go on living.
So he found a cave which he thought would be a good place to die and he lay down and waited.
And every time the sun came up he thought, this day will be my last. Then, when death was nearly upon him, one morning, he woke up and there was this little pile of nuts right in front of him, right at the end of his nose. And he thought, that's weird. He sniffed at them and they smelled good. And he had just enough strength to eat them and they tasted good too. And he felt a little better and slept all day and when he woke up there was another pile of nuts there and he ate them, wondering who had put them there.
And it happened again and again, every time he fell asleep, until one morning he pretended to be asleep but kept his eyes just open enough to keep watch.
And after a while, he heard a scrabbling and a huffing and a puffing and he saw this little old chipmunk, sweating and staggering along, carrying a great armful of nuts and dumping them down in front of him.
And Nooshka-Lalooshka opened his eyes and said, hey! And the chipmunk nearly jumped out of its skin and fell over and said, please, please don't eat me!
And Noshka-Lalooshka said, why would I want to eat someone who has saved my life?
And he asked the chipmunk why would he be so kind to a wolf when everybody knows that wolves eat chipmunks? And the chipmunk said it was because once, long ago, a wolf had been very kind to him and instead of eating him had let him go and crashed into a rock, just to make some other wolves laugh.
Now....the counselors ask the teenager: "Do you identify with someone in the story?"
The girl answers: "Yeah. I'm one of the nuts."
This story taught me many lessons. And the teenagers response threw me for a loop...I hope you glean some useful info from it Manue!!
Manue M
Thanks for the story Mary. I will take it and think about it!
David Barnett 10+
Manue M
David Barnett 10+
Manue M
I am not surprised at all david. My kids do that too. And they can also recognize pictures and sculptures representing Buddhas from all around Asia.
Still, there is a specific way of representing those figures. Jesus never has his hair cut and an angry smile. Buddha has also many features easy to spot, like long ears for example.
Recognizing a face is probably one of the things humans are the best at for evolutionary reasons.
Thanks for sharing that story. I get a feeling of how amazed you must be with your daughter in general.
joy faber
I know there is a higher power because I know how limited I am. I don't know if there is supernatural but I know there are natural things beyond my comprehension. I know that all humans are flawed, and I say to myself, "if all humans are flawed all human systems are flawed." I can live with that.
Phillip McKay
Manue M
I am an agnostic atheist. But, I like to tell myself stories...