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Reinventing the resume
So today's task that has resulted in procrastinating on TED has been reading resumes.
I'm not sure whose bad idea the standard resume/cover letter format was but I'd like to slap that person.
Resumes don't tell potential employers what they need to know about you, which isn't just what you have learned and done in the past. I need to know why you did what you did and how well you did it. I need to know about your personality and whether you are a self-starter, whether you generate new ideas, whether you are going to be happy in the position I am filling and get along with the rest of the team. Can you work productively from home? etc.
What can we do to re-think the resume?
Patrik Sefeldt
Josh Maher
George Kong 30+
e.g. Who are you, what have you done, and why do you want to work for us?
When you actually interview people - you cut the crap and have a conversation on essentially what amounts to life and work philosophy.
Frank Bennett
Gisela McKay 30+
Maybe the 20 people who actually got in the "keepers" pile -- but the rest, it really feels like I have to hope I didn't overlook someone better simply because the resume format didn't convey who they really are.
Robert Winner 50+
Robert Winner 50+
your have switched to the factors in the interview, character assessment, and the probationary evaluation. We all know of the slackers that each organization has that are along for the ride. As a hiring agent we can all be fooled by a good writer, smooth talker, and slick operator only to discover this down the line. That is the danger of the resume/hiring process as we know it. I think that your question is valid, however, that is not the vehicle to accomplish all you are looking for. EXAMPLE: I enjoy a good head to head discussion. I depart, lick my wounded ego, reassess, and reengage if approperiate if not get on with the job. It is my job to know when the input is no longer approperiate. At what point would an employer say I was a asset and where would he/she say that I was a hinderence. Fine line. At what point in the hiring process would you make that decision.
I think you are trying to put ten pounds of stuff into a five pound bag. All the best Bob
Gisela McKay 30+
Entirely possible. I simply think that for most (and depending on the job they are applying for it could be upwards of 90%) that resume is not the best showcase of who they are and what they are capable of doing -- and they aren't getting the luxury of the interview to demonstrate that.
When I say "re-invent" I don't mean "shuffle it around", I mean to accept that the world has changed and the paper format doesn't work in the digital world. No, I don't mean I want to watch the video resume (at least not as a first pass) or any of the other clever multimedia options that have been developed in the past few years.
It's time to blow it up and start again, accepting that people are different and it's not a matter of wrong or right, it's a matter of fit within an environment.
Robert Winner 50+
How about this. The resume should be a two step process. 1) A 10 line (max) paragraph stating what you can do for me; to be followed upon request by 2) A full resume of achievements that are pertinent to the position.
Gisela McKay 30+
I think it still misses a critical factor which is personality. Most of the ones I received have something akin to your first step in the cover letter.
I almost feel like I would prefer people send me their Myer's-Brigg type, Enneagram, StrengthsFinder profile or some such.
These are things where it is not about right or wrong, it's about fit. For example, you can well imagine that I don't do well with SFs (sensey-feely types like Mr. Barnes below). I hate walking on eggshells around them because they are likely to burst into tears or some other annoying emotional display at any given moment based on something I've said that has NOTHING to do with them.
While they may be brilliant in another environment, for me, they're draining to be around. NFs I can deal with. They make great interfacers between me and the outside world.
I'd like to get a feel for their sense of humour as well. Are they too likely to pick up my neuroses, or are they independent-willed? Are they going to get hurt when their ideas get rejected or are they going to toss out a new one?
Do they need me to couch criticism between two bits of praise, or do they think of it as the "shit sandwich" as I have heard the technique called.
These are all factors in getting the right person for the job.
Jamie Barnes
It's from seeing (here and other topics) her unwillingness to accept other peoples ideas and press on with dominating replies....There is a difference. Gisela, you may think I'm opposed to the majority of your words.
Truth is I'm not.
I admire alot of your thoughts...and I dont let the parts of you I disagree with obstruct that because I accept youre not perfect.
I just dont like when you take 5% of a person and conclude who they are..as shown again by your wilingness to define me in summation as..
" likely to burst into tears or some other annoying emotional display at any given moment based on something I've said that has NOTHING to do with them"
You may be intelligent, educated and even successful. But dont for a second think that in this world all that cant be overshadowed by a lack of humility.
Gisela McKay 30+
Oh, I get that there is my tone "triggers stuff" in certain others, and I'm sure that if I were a really nice person, I would try to not "trigger" other people's "issues," but I can't live my live through other people's eyes. Or I suppose I could, but that would put the onus for what is going on in other people's heads on me.
Or at least create the illusion that I was in control of what is happening in other people's heads -- usually based on some past experience that has nothing to do with me.
The reality is that other people are going to do what other people are going to do, and only thing I can change is my response to them.
So you can follow me from thread to thread nipping at my heels like a chihuahua, and being about as effective, though I am sure you will gather a cadre of "she was mean to me" followers, but the reality is I am just going to ignore you and continue on as I am.
Your choice. Your time to waste. Your issue to address.
Don Van Spyker
ps I think this could be a new web site if you or any one else startes it just make sure i get a kick back. i just need the modavation and maybe ill start it.
Gisela McKay 30+
I think Linked In is rapidly becoming the site where exactly what you described takes place. Have you tried it?
Simon Tam
"Why bother having a resume?
In the last few days, I've heard from top students at Cornell and other universities about my internship.
It must have been posted in some office or on a site, because each of the applications is just a resume. No real cover letter, no attempt at self marketing. Sort of, "here are the facts about me, please put me in the pile."
This is controversial, but here goes: I think if you're remarkable, amazing or just plain spectacular, you probably shouldn't have a resume at all.
Not just for my little internship, but in general. Great people shouldn't have a resume.
Here's why: A resume is an excuse to reject you. Once you send me your resume, I can say, "oh, they're missing this or they're missing that," and boom, you're out..."
(you can read the whole piece here: http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2008/03/why-bother-havi.html)
I think that we should not only rethink the resume, but the application process as a whole (and in many ways, the hiring process).
Gisela McKay 30+
If it isn't a position that is financially worth outsourcing to a headhunting company, then it is usually the obscenely over-applied-for kind of job. I'd like to get a better feel for people at that point of contact, because for 90% of applicants, it is the ONLY point of contact.
Jamie Barnes
Lets be realistic... The majority of the population have never been heard of, and wont be remarkable.
Simon Tam
Jeffrey F Fox has a great book out there called "How to Land Your Dream Job: No Resume! And Other Secrets to Get You in the Door."
He talks about tactics like creating your own position at the company you really want to work for and I can attest to it. I've landed several jobs simply by connecting, showing value immediately, and working my way in the door (even when the company wasn't hiring).
I mostly agree with Seth's sentiment: great jobs, like great people, don't require a resume. There are plenty of mundane jobs for mundane people though.
George Kong 30+
Well that doesn't exactly help most of us out!
Chris Waggoner
Given the different perspectives of potential interviewers, I think it's difficult to write one short document that will inform everyone.
I've found that the best measures are (1) test applicants on a task that is as close to their job as you can make it, and (2) talking sincerely. In your case, perhaps you could ask some questions on a website before asking for resumes.
Jon Miner
The resumé is a useful source of information. What you are talking about should be accomplished in both the front end and the back end. That is, the front end is your advert for personnel. In that you can ask for information specific to your current needs to be included in the cover letter. The resumé itself is traditionally full of generalized information and is fine as far as it goes. In the back end, after you have selected your candidate list and invited them to come in for an interview, you can have specific questions that you feel have not been answered in either the cover letter or the resumé.
You say "Resumes don't tell potential employers what they need to know about you." Well, of course not. But the resumé does provide a general background for the specific individual who is applying for the job, and in it are key facts about that individual. If you had to rely on a letter and an interview only, you would probably invent a form by which the past performance and educational background, as well as personal goals of the applicant could be discovered. I wonder what you would call it?
At any rate, the only constructive idea I can say is for you to ask for the kind of statements in the cover letter that will help you eliminate unwanted candidates quickly so that you can narrow your search to the most suitable ones more easily.
Either that or throw the resumés down the stairs and read the ones that go farthest first.
Gisela McKay 30+
But when you are advertising something that is broader in appeal/tone in this market, you simply get a wider pool of applicants, and it is at this level that there really needs to be differentiation.
Looking back over my own job-hunting experience, I realized that the items that would either have made me better- or worse-suited to a job rarely come out even during the interviews, the little details. It's not that I grew up the eldest child in a family with a business, it's that from 12, 13 on I was taught the management end of things, from ordering and scheduling, to closing, doing the books, etc. I was used to functioning as back up if things got busy, and it instilled a tendency to pick in at any capacity on a project to push it when needed, despite that early business having been a restaurant and now working in technology. Early on, my managerial tendencies sometimes offended/threatened my direct reports.
These are nuances that you don't get - at least not when you are whittling a stack of 300 down to 20, 30 for interviews.
Jay Robinson
The cover letter can be a nice balanced between the shameless self-promotion, and the story about why I am applying to the particular job. I personally only apply for jobs that I feel I will be happy in, and usually there is a little story as to what brought me in my life to the point where I am looking for a job like the one I'm applying for.
In the resume section, I write the necessary information like what and when, and then I write a short paragraph on how the job propelled my working experience forward, either by presenting me with challenging situations, or teaching me new methods of doing something, or just generally familiarizing me with a line of work, or new work ethic.
I've had a lot of good luck with resumes this way. The personal touch really makes a difference. As to your question of how we can change the orthodox resume: The way to change how these are written is to write them differently! Be the change. Simply. Honestly. Strongly. Gracefully.
Gisela McKay 30+
I sincerely wish we lived in a world where people only applied for jobs they felt they were a match, but when you get 300 resumes in one day for a single job posting, you know that isn't the case. :/
Jamie Barnes
Perhaps put that on your next resume and see how you go for an interview. There is no better way to display a lack of intelligence than by claiming superiority.I'd have no problem woking with someone like you because I exercise tolerance for people. Your comments so far though Indicate you probably wouldnt.
But on Topic, I have recently been sending resumes, and when I decided to do mine, I approached the formatting/presentation with creativity.
Its a piece of A2 folded in half and trimed to the height of an A4. What you get is a back to back printed booklet..
Basically, the resume goes like this.Cover page(Front)>Cover letter(Inside page)>Resume(Other 2 pages).As for the internal formating. I changed that too, I start with a summary of abilities/strenghts, not a heading of the mandatory information.
I wanted to introduce the person to Who I am, not What I am..if that makes sense...It sounds similar to what you are suggesting, more interpersonal than informative.
Gisela McKay 30+
This little bit of honesty from you would be infinitely more useful in determining fit than what a resume consultant has told someone they need to say.
Jamie Barnes
Like I stated earlier, I am all for improved resumes, thats why i spent time on mine... the best resume in the world however will typically only get you to the interview where you must back yourself against what you've written. This is for some is where they break through to the empoyer and show their personal values. Unfortunately, the employer often culls those people before their chance, hence the resume today needs to be a personal and creative marketing tool rather than a list of history.
Gisela McKay 30+
Anyone who -- on any level -- thinks that having a big ego is a problem really just won't work in certain environments.
Ever notice that awesome people hang out with other awesome people? It's because they don't think that there is a finite amount of emotional security or self-assurance on the planet and if someone has too much of it, there's less for others. These are not people who need to poke pin-holes in other people's egos.
I can't be around people who hear "I am good at [x]" as "you must be bad at [x]". Much as I know my strengths, I know my flaws. None of them includes hearing positive things about others as being somehow detrimental to myself.
I suppose you could consider that I am not particularly attracted to petty people as being a flaw.
Jamie Barnes
I'd be repeating myself, but again..seems like a domineering attitude and a failure to accept other people's ideas.And this is probably turning into an argument at this point, so I'm going to accept your ideas, accept you as who you are.
Gisela McKay 30+
Well then! Maybe I want to be seen as meek and mild-mannered!
I didn't realize it was Opposite Day.
EDIT: But it is OK for _you_ to be judgmental.
Jamie Barnes
Im sorry, but is this a domineering attitude and a failure to accept other people's ideas? Do you believe you have the superior ability to reinvent the resume?
" I need to know why you did what you did and how well you did it. I need to know about your personality and whether you are a self-starter, whether you generate new ideas, whether you are going to be happy in the position I am filling and get along with the rest of the team. Can you work productively from home? etc."
This is the purpose of a good cover letter.
Gisela McKay 30+
Exactly what I mean. Yes, I have a strong personality, and someone like you should probably not work with me or you would only end up stealing office supplies to feel "vindicated" at the end of the day, whereas another person would work fine in close quarters with me.
Also, just because something is a convention and/or commonly accepted doesn't mean it is the best way of doing it. There are lots of traditions that should go out the window.
I posted it here to get suggestions from others, not to single-handedly upturn the convention of the resume.
As for the cover letter, anyone can write "I am a hard-working go-getter who thrives in an independent environment" - in fact most people have written variations on exactly that.
Simon Tam