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On choice paralysis: Most people have no taste and thus cannot make a decision on their own
EDIT: Please note, this is in Debates. I fully expect people to argue against the premise -- which is that we do _not_ need less choice. Watch the videos, at least the Sheena Iyengar one to know what this is about.
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I have observed, as a foodie (and as a supertaster - which sounds like a magic power but actually kinda sucks) that most people really only seem have taste buds so they can tell when milk is bad.
When I say things like "this wine has notes of rosemary" they seem to either think I am just being a pretentious twit (and making it up), or they nod agreeably but you can tell they have no idea what you are talking about.
(Since foodies tend to cluster, I have plenty of friends who can detect these things).
They go to restaurants because someone else told them it was the place to go, and they order dishes that someone else recommended, but the nuances, really are lost. (This is the only thing I can think of that explains things like Pizza Hut, which has possibly the worst tasting sauce on the planet.)
This lack of actual preference/ability to discern extends then to purchasing things that other people desire: They are simply substituting direct happiness with the object itself with happiness in having caused envy or in feeling successful at having been able to purchase the desirable object. (Or at least not feeling failure at having picked the "wrong" thing.)
These are the people paralyzed by choice. (They are also unduly influenced by advertising.)
People who can actually detect intrinsic value are not thus paralyzed (nor, I suspect, are sociopaths who do not actually have an emotional tie to the outcome, which would explain the number of them in high-ranking positions -- they can make the expedient choice without the paralysis).
Fletcher Kauffman
George Kong 30+
I can readily tell the difference between equipment...
But truth be told, I can't tell if I prefer the 'better' equipment more or less. I simply know they're different.
Maybe in a life that thrives on experiential gains, that's really all that matters?
Fletcher Kauffman
1) I can taste the difference between different kinds of water (I mean different varieties of bottled water, for example).
2) I really don't have any distinct taste.
3) I wholeheartedly agree-- often the things that I want are solely because I am aware that other people want them and, somehow, it says something about me that I am able to obtain them relative to that ability in others.
4) I'm very certain that choice is something we demand-- and don't really care about. It's only important to us that we've had the experience of choosing something, regardless of how that choice was made.
5) I am thoroughly uninfluenced by advertising-- I hate advertising and will, in fact, avoid products because of their advertising.
6) Things do not have any intrinsic value. Even gold only has a value because we all agree that it does.
7) Sociopaths get to high-ranking positions not because of their expedience in making decisions but because they lack sufficient empathy to worry about the impacts of their decisions, which our (forgive me) capitalist society values.
With all of that out of the way, I more agree with you than disagree-- most people do not know why they choose what they choose-- and they will make up a reason to justify their choice very quickly.
robert h
James Kindler 20+
Gisela McKay 30+
Mary M. 50+
"We likely make dozens of decisions daily. Many are of little lasting consequence. Some, though, can have a profound impact on our lives. To progress as individuals (emotionally, spiritually, etc..), ....we should make decisions that reflect our own convictions, not those of someone else."
"When we are indecisive, those around us may conclude that we are not really convinced of our beliefs and therefore are easily influence."
"Fear may paralyze us-fear of making the wrong decision, fear of failure, or fear of appearing foolish to others." Let me add here Gisela, that people who have intrinsic values are not exempt from feeling paralyzed when it is time to make certain decisions.
'Will we always make the right decision? No. "All of us make mistakes."
The article went on to provide steps to help make good decisions:
1. Avoid Being Presumptuous
2. Do Research
3. Pray for Wisdom (spiritually minded people)
4. Make the Decision
5. Implement the Decision
6. Review and Adjust
And, even after implementing the above steps, one can STILL make the wrong decision. So then, what next?
I like what Elizabeth Gilbert said in an interview with IQ2 (youtube has the video), quoting her mom, she said:
"Regardless of what you choose today, subsequently information may arise that makes you realize you made the wrong decision. But please, do not abuse yourself because of the decision you made; when all you knew is what you know today."
From personal observation, I have also seen the effects of uninformed decision making. Many, sad to say, do not even realize they have choices available to them. They have the mentality that "might as well just go with the first available option"......and they are not interested in seeking further information. The consequences are oftentimes disastrous.
If we have friends who have "choice paralysis", we can choose to help them. Don't you think??
Gisela McKay 30+
To address a couple of points, I didn't say that the person didn't have intrinsic value(s), I said they weren't picking the object based on _its_ intrinsic value -- rather on the impression it would make on others. It's the same reason why many people experience buyer's remorse or why the joy people feel in a purchase diminishes quickly.
If you purchase the large screen TV because you like to watch movies at home and take joy in the watching, then you are more likely to find pleasure in it longer than if you bought it to impress your friends, and now a newer sleeker model has been released.
Also, it is one thing to feel choice paralysis over which course of cancer treatment or what job to take, it is another thing to be frozen at a display of tomato sauce. I'm not really sure how to help someone who experiences the latter except by making a recommendation, which also seems like adding to the problem because they would just be substituting my judgment where they should be using their own. :/
Mary M. 50+
I remember someone speaking of young people, and their lack of appreciation for money, say:
"Young people today know the price of everything, but the value of nothing."
It is important to know the value of the item you are purchasing, and not just get it because your neighbor got one. That contributes to being happy with the choice you made.
And, let me share what happens to me at grocery stores. Many spanish speaking shoppers will stop me to ask what certain items are....I end up educating them on what their choices are. But I steer clear of choosing for them. This happens also at the check out counter. The cashier will often ask me, what is that? And I'll educate them as to what kind of vegetable it is, or fruit, or other good. And if noone is in line behind me, I'll explain how to cook it...sometimes I'll jot down the recipe, or refer them to an internet site.
The hardest people to be around are "fickle" people......they can't make up their mind, and when you try to help them see what their choices are, they just don't get it.
Gisela, this is a great conversation!!!!!!
joy faber 10+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
the kind of thinking you represent is responsible for the stalled progress we observe today. why would we learn new ways, modern ways? we just want our old lives. internet? BAN! children can google their homework? BAN! people can download stuff? SOPA in their face! people don't understand investment schemes? GOVERNMENT CONTROL!
what is the source of that laziness?? instead of living in the new world, using its benefits, and learning its new ways, we want to live the old world? we want to stop change, because it is comfortable? people! wake up already! the new things are GOOD! that's why they are developed! if you want the good things, you have to accept the burden that comes with it.
but listen. fine. you can live in the cave and eat raw meat, i don't care. but please don't try to hold the rest of us back. i lived in a time when we had two kind of milk, red and blue. i'm OKAY with a hundred brands of milk, so go whine to your psychologist, reverend or coach and leave me alone.
joy faber 10+
I am however very concerned about our environment and the vast out of control wast piles we are creating which are terrible. Call me a cave-dweller if you like but I have decided to severely limit myself and the things I buy. I chose instead to make and do for myself and my family, to recycle as much as I can and to encourage others to do the same.
I don't feel the need to be an unbridled consumer and I don't feel this makes me less progressive. You and I just have different ideas about things. That's O.K. No?
Gisela McKay 30+
I don't have a cell phone either. A decade ago I was "gadget girl" the subject of a CBC National piece on "are we too connected". At the time, according to me there was no such thing (the interview is still online, though not the whole video piece). Now, not so much. And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
I think the idea of declaring that "I can't make a choice therefore we should eliminate options for everyone," is akin to saying, "Math is hard. Let's ban everything other than addition and subtraction."
Throwing in other issues to confound the topic won't fly here.
Gisela McKay 30+
Companies don't make a flavour or scent or whatever the customization for altruistic reasons, they do it because there is a market for it. And yes, if they take it away, a goodly percent of that market will just go to their second choice, enough so that it would offset any losses of those who jumped ship.
What I don't get is why this paralysis happens even after you KNOW what type pleases most of the people in the house. It seems to me the difficulty should happen once, maybe twice, and then you've made your decision. Or buy the freakin' basic version - pretend like they've already stripped the line down to that one choice.
Gisela McKay 30+
joy faber 10+
Gisela McKay 30+
Gisela McKay 30+
Knightly Blowguns
You may be right. It could be that people who cannot make a decision do have no taste. That doesn't mean they will never have taste.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
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Krisztián Pintér 200+
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Krisztián Pintér 200+
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Krisztián Pintér 200+
about choosing. there is an experiment devised by dan ariely. it consists of a series of pairs of shapes, from which you have to choose the bigger. you have a certain amount of time, and at the end, the total chosen area is summarized. some shapes are very different in size, others are almost the same. after you take the test, you get the average time you took to choose from the very different shapes and from the similar sized shapes. obviously, most people spend more time on the similar shapes. and then the question is: was it worth it? was it a good decision to hesitate on a choice that does not matter much, instead of moving on to more important decisions? do you really need the 99% solution if you already have the 90% solution?
conclusion: grab that freaking mayonnaise already. does not matter which. move on with your life.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
joy faber 10+
The idea that you should choose the most expensive menu item because you don't have to pay is simply selfish.
When I shop I'm not just shopping for me, there are three other family members whose taste and desires I have to consider. 1st choice- grow my own tomatoes. 2nd choice- I think Name brand but look for added salt and sugar. 3rd choice- price. If it takes more than 1-2 minutes to find the one I want I might choose to have salad instead and move on.
Here's the clincher for me; when my husband asks where I'd like to eat. If I choose what I like I am positive he won't find anything on the menu he will eat (no sushi, no onions, no green stuff etc...). I am paralyzed every time. If I say Pizza Hut (for his sake) he feels insulted because I knows I don't like it. It's a very emotionally loaded decision and I hate it when he asks. I'd rather go to lunch with a friend who's taste is a closer match to mine.
Calling people "sheep" because they go along with the crowd is akin to a quote by Albert Einstein, "Everybody is a genius but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life thinking it is stupid." You have no idea the number of thoughts nor the content of thoughts going through a persons mind when they are required to make a decision.
It might be interesting to see if this choice paralysis persists across cultures, or gender, or occupation. I think this might take you closer to the truth.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
i refuse even hints to any sort of solution that consists of limiting or regulating free interaction of perfectly moral individuals in order to make a 3rd person happy. you don't have time to choose tomato? listen well. i don't care. it is your problem. can i help? tell me how, and i will think about it. but i rigidly and swiftly refuse any kind of aggression, coercion or limitation on my own behavior because that would be more suitable for you. do not throw your garbage in my garden!
joy faber 10+
The time it takes to make a choice is paralyzing.
Considering the needs and desires of the people with whom I live can be paralyzing.
Considering the contents of each selection can be paralyzing.
Having to hone my conversation down to a list can be paralyzing.
I only tried to address the question using the examples provided. I am being honest and forthright I'm sorry if you are not pleased. I'll try to make a more considerate choice next time.
xxoo
Krisztián Pintér 200+
joy faber 10+
1. I propose paralysis could be replaced by overwhelmed.
2. I suggest that this study might be more revealing if done in a variety of cultures, occupations and with the genders separated, possibly age groups too.
3. I suggest that the reasons people feel paralyzed are many but may boil down to being overwhelmed by the number of choices.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
i would like to point out something though. you say that paralysis follows the large number of choices. my problem with this is "follows". you present it like number of choices had a definite effect of paralysis. like the tilt of the earth causes seasons, and such. however, there is no such direct link. large number of choices CAN lead to paralysis. but not necessarily. and the solution is not reducing the number of choices, but to give people strategies to handle it.
it is a mental pattern. it sounds as "X has bad effects. so we need to eliminate X". but this is not necessarily the logical conclusion. it just as could be "X has bad effects. we need some methods to counter those effects, so we can have X without problem". which method to use, depends on many factors, including the possible benefits of X.
Gisela McKay 30+
Is there any reason that you actually have to stand there and taste every single one?
I wouldn't - though more likely I would pick something that seemed new or innovative rather than strawberry or raspberry. I'd also rule out flavours I know I don't like in general. It's also highly unlikely that I would feel compelled to taste all six of the limited selection either.
And sometimes living with other people with different tastes and dietary concerns just means buying multiple.
Also the rule of dining etiquette that suggests you wait for the host to indicate the price range of the meal you order doesn't mean you are forced to eat exactly what s/he chooses. And it wasn't what I was perceiving was in play in that situation anyway. It sounded like they were following the clique leader as opposed to the person paying.
(And whether I would or would not order it would really depend on the price difference between the two and who was doing the paying. Restaurants often put an expensive option on the menu to sell the second highest item. Given the behaviour of the others in the group, I wasn't going to comment on the rudeness of picking the most expensive item.)
joy faber 10+
Other than that I tend to steer clear of in-store samples altogether, all those people milling about and all those microbes mingling eeck.
For ordering off the menu read John Steinbeck's Cannery Row, one of the most romantic dining scenes ever written and filled with wisdom. I really took that one to heart. I also tend to go low key when I'm feasting on an organizational dime. I want to make a good impression and also do not want to leave a bad one, tightrope I know. But I have been on the paying end of that scenario enough to know what I hope for and how it feels when people take advantage.
I'm a planner. When I go shopping I generally have a short list of staples or ingredients I need to complete a meal and I'd rather save my sampling for dining with friends I trust.
But there are certain items I dread shopping for; clothing, soap, seasonal gifts, anything for my sister, cars, gifts and toys for people I don't know well, and sometimes the meandering trip to the grocery with my mother-in-law. Maybe I'm not one of the folks who seize up often but I've had my moments.
I love the question! Thank you for asking. It brings up a lot of other issues that I hadn't given much thought.
Gisela McKay 30+
AS for the school menu at the restaurant, it seems likely that the limited selection means the school had already whittled down the options to what was in their budget. I have friends who get pissy if they think you are ordering something cheap to save them money -- and to be fair I am the same way. I would rather someone pick what they want to eat, not based on price.
I kinda wish we could bring back the old-fashioned Ladies' Menu that had no prices on it.
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joy faber 10+
Thank you!
"Thus I have become in his eyes as one bringing contentment." Song of Soloman V8, 14
Gisela McKay 30+
What makes someone walk away rather than tasting them or, having tasted them, leaves them still incapable of choosing? Why can't they say, "I'll try this one today," and then take another on the next occasion?
Why do pigeons fly up in the air en masse when they hear a hawk cry instead of hiding? Is it the same response in a hawk faced with 30 potential dinner targets that someone who can't choose between 24 flavours of jam experiences?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Jamie Barnes
Gisela McKay 30+
It's the big trend in recommendations, it seems. "Simplification" which has the secondary benefit of reduced infrastructure in making the alternate versions.
"Streamlining".
Gisela McKay 30+
Jamie Barnes
Your presented debates seems pretty judgemental and even consumed by expression of your own opinion. The Waitress/Waiter who works nights to cover college fees will often not be a wine critique like yourself or interested in the inherent beauty of your selection, and in that case, they wouldnt even know where to start with their choice..Chances are theyd probably just pick something near the top of the list, because they feel they'd be assured quality. Someone offering you a wine is not typically going to indulge you with an expression of words that describe the traits of it...thats a critics job.
Also, Im not sure what you were trying to make clear with your reference to Pizza Hut..but people often dont dine at Pizza hut to discern nuances in the base or sauce, they CHOOSE it because they are SURE without doubt they'll receive the meal they did last time, something that is inherently important to some.
I agree that people (who cant decide) will select an expensive meal on the menu to appear to have status and taste, but I'm confused with the last part of your debate wherr you reference being able to detect Intrinsic Value. Intrinsic value is completely subject to opinion of the one making the judgement.For example, Im sure a geat deal of people love the intrinsic value of fast food in terms of it's stable cost, repeated consistentcy, time efficienct and cheap delivery. These people may lack the distinguished tongue of those virtuos connoisseurs that aim for excellence, theyre still making a choice for something they desire though, something they value in thats relevant to their frame of reference
Gisela McKay 30+
Jamie Barnes
Gisela McKay 30+
"We all want customized experiences and products -- but when faced with 700 options, consumers freeze up."
joy faber 10+
Gisela McKay 30+
What was a matter of a few cents before has now become a larger cost downloaded onto the person who would have been perfectly able to make a choice because of the inability of others to do the same.
Also, let's use the example of ice cream again. How, precisely, would one "customize" a selection of five basic ice creams into say, Tiger Tail? Not that I like the flavour, but the claim is lacking.
What's wrong with the indecisive among us learning to pick the most basic option if they don't actually care/can't distinguish anyway?
David Hamilton 50+
By wasting none of their intellectual rescources worrying about what's popular, they make more informed decisions, but... of course, this comes with a drawback, when they're wrong about something verifiable, they don't have the tools to learn from the wisdom of others. There was actually an interesting book recently claiming that bi-polar disorder was the "leadership disease", because they tend to be capable of the same cold and calculating decisions of a sociopath when they need to, but, they eventually are attacked by their empathy and compassion when left alone. Maybe no one isn't sociopaths are just better actors than other stoics, and intellectuals.
That ability to temporarily detach from emotion, would be helpful in taste as well. Many people are overwhelmed by "DROOL... Butter... Fat... Salt... Sugar... llllallallal". A foodie has overcome that emotion, much in the same way a sociopath overcomes compassion to make necessary choices as a general or ruler. A normal person might let themselves be paralysed by the fact that their decisions cause death, where a "sociopath" just acts... for good or ill.
Interesting topic.
Gisela McKay 30+
I must ponder this a bit.
How do you think it would apply to the case Maxime suggested, where one person chooses, then a bunch go along with that choice and then ridicule the person who doesn't follow the crowd? Why would they begrudge someone making a decision?
David Hamilton 50+
The sociopath, or supertaster... Sees people doing that... They see a decision becoming popular, and they want to be part of the crowd... but, ultimately, they say "I'm not a steak and fries person... I'm a sushi person... be whatever the hell you want to be, but I'm eating sushi".
The people making fun of the sushi person, in my worldview, are the people that actually wanted sushi, and are now angry at themselves, for trying to fit in by ordering steak and fries. So, the people enforcing the culture of steak and fries... are actually the people who like sushi, but like being popular more. They are trying to take advantage of the cultural choice they made. They are trying to prove to the collective, that "steak and fries was the way to go, this other person is weird"... They want the sociopath/supertaster, to feel bad, about doing the right thing... because they feel bad, about doing the wrong thing, and misery loves company.
Maxime Touzel
But they have different taste and it's just fine.
Gisela McKay 30+
Maxime Touzel
So we're two groups of the same class, we all go to a restaurant and all the food is paid by the school, nobody has to pay for what they order. We get a menu with not much choices, about 5 to 8 choices total. We start ordering and my group, they took the cheaper choice on the menu "fries and steak" that's it, they all took the same choice, ok, my turn comes, i took the sushi plate, the expensive choice on the menu because i don't pay.
Nobody really cared about my choice until i get the damn thing in front of me, then the other guys in the group all started to complain about how they can't stand sushi, how could i choose this over steak and fries, that it come from overseas, the guy next to me said "i ate that crap one time and vomited it all when i came back home" blah blah blah, BS after BS after BS they have been complaining about my choice during all the meal.
And i was just thinking like "steak and fries!.. why would i choose the same thing as everyone else, plus, i could do that myself", and it happened to be the cheapest thing on the menu while nobody has to pay for what they order".
So perhaps the people with no taste, simply want to avoid triggering the "complaining fashion" of the others, so they ask what the others like and then they avoid their complains by choosing whatever please the others over what they personally like and they end up saving the day by doing this.
Ok it might not be true in every situation, but i guess it might be in some.
Gisela McKay 30+
If anything, it reinforces the idea that they either cannot or aren't willing to identify what they personally want.
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edward long 100+
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Jamie Barnes
edward long 100+
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Jamie Barnes
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Jamie Barnes
Wade Smith
Sounds more like an over-inflated ego.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
i'm actually very much happy with ms iyengar's second talk. finally we are not condemning the multitude of options, but trying to come up with methods to help people make those choices. i was very troubled with the possible implications of both the other talks you attached, plus iyengar's previous one. both of them can be used to call for more "regulation" of our lives, as companies are "too stupid to serve the people right". alas, both speakers indeed have something like that in mind, though their research does not support that at all. but this talk of iyengar finally moves to the right direction. do not travel back in time. new problems need new solutions. we don't need to stop progress. we need to learn how to live in the new world we have.
Gisela McKay 30+
I understand they are the largest portion of the population (these same people seem also afraid to follow their own dreams/goals).
Teaching them how people who are able to choose may or may not work. Creating spaces for them with the limited lines may be a way to address the issue, but perhaps understanding the underlying issue would point to a better solution.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
maybe related, but came to my mind, so i will tell anyway. i've got this idea some time ago, that given any psychological test in which most humans fail miserably, why don't we focus on those participants who don't? we could conduct a series of such experiments like the milgram experiment, this 6/24 jars of jam experiment, etc, and see how being the exception in one of them correlates with being an exception in another. if correlates, we can find a group of people that most likely does not fall in such traps. then we need to dissect these people's mind to see what's in it. maybe we can learn useful strategies for life.
dear gisela! we need your mind dissected for the benefit of mankind! okay, kidding, but the rest was serious.
Gisela McKay 30+
It would be an interesting thing to find out, just how often the outliers correlate across the different experiments. Not sure how you keep them unaware of what's being tested at a certain juncture, though.
Why do you think some people can't make a decision?
David Hamilton 50+
The smarter you are, the more likely you are to realize that the Milgram experiment is testing you, and the more likely you are to be confident in your decision to stop the experiment.
The more of a sociopath you are... The less likely you are to care about the lab coat, or the "importance of the experiment", or... basically... what the hell anyone thinks about you. So the more likely, in theory, you would be, to do the "compassionate" thing.
It would be incredibly intriguing to me, to do research on whether or not people who stopped giving electrocutions, have sociopathic leanings... Also, do they have high IQs? They have already proven, that people with high IQ's are more likely to experience depression, mania, anxiety, and various other "psychological problems"... Maybe sociopathy just got added to the list.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Juliette Zahn 50+
Nevertheless this child grows, and it retains intrinsic intelligence, initially it is faced with two choices: in the words of Denis Waitley;
"There are two primary choices in life: to accept conditions as they exist, or accept the responsibility for changing them." All else follows. lol.
edward long 100+
Have you eaten haggus? Have you sampled a rotted duck egg in the Phillippines? I threw-up both times, but there are many people who genuinely love such things. Sorry about your affliction. Thanks for sharing.
Gisela McKay 30+
Choosing to eat haggis is still making a choice.
edward long 100+
Gisela McKay 30+
Maxime Touzel
Rather than limiting the amount of choice to prevent choice paralysis, we should limit the amount of choice to prevent waste.
But it's not the only possible solution, but that's for another debate.