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How would an economic system not based on the acquisition of material wealth work?
The internet is essentially a machine that duplicates products without expending resources. It is a literal cornucopia of content products. The SOPA discussions are demonstrating that the old style economics of one-way distribution will not work for content companies in the present and future. But, what about everything else?
As we gather knowledge about the universe, we are able to create things with greater and greater ease. In the case of just about all content, we have gathered enough information to create a system that effectively generates product for no cost. There is also, usually, no profit - people make things because they want to.
Physical objects are more difficult to generate in this manner. We know this because it still takes effort and resources to make them. However, there may come a time when physical objects are created just as easily as content is created through the internet. What happens then?
What happens when we can no longer rely on profit from making things? How do we create an economic system that isn't based on acquiring material wealth?
Enrico Petrucco 20+
Yet, as I just discussed: all of these systems should be expected to cohabitate.
Enrico Petrucco 20+
I would not worry about the inferred danger imposed on supplying physical objects. 'Profit' of the group is subsequently 'profit' for any individual that is part of the group. Profit can be obtained along any value medium including, respect or self-actualisation. Money is only useful to motivate a basic function such as discussed by Dan Pink elsewhere on TED.
The Internet is a tool that enables the fourth economic system, and the others. Just as we are still learning how to work with the other three, adding this fourth is another part of the equation that will remove burden from the systems that are not designed to handle certain important functions. This fourth system will not remove important functions from the other systems, except where the other systems are failing. That is how all of the economic systems are meant to work together.
Alex Hitchens
Chris Hollander
Extensive mechanization and total resource management could provide every person on the planet with food, clothing, shelter, furniture and transportation. The vast majority of people who are no longer needing to toil for subsistence are then free to produce intellectual and artisan products. The subsistence products could be provided to all without the concern of a monetary system and the artisan products never needed monetary resources to be traded in the first place, money only represents the prestige which is the actual impetus for such products.
The monetary system is not necessary for the human condition, it is only an evolutionary step forward from bartering as a way of establishing social relationships. Anyone that says the world would not produce subsistence products without being forced to by wages is cynical and anyone who says that products could remain creative without entrepreneurship is delusional. If all subsistence is mechanized than all we need is to make sure is that there is enough competition in society to keep up the quality of the doctors, lawyers, teachers ect.
Zhiyue Wang
I think the problem is that our society functions on acquisition.
Yes, to acquire is a natural instinct due to self-preservation. However, selfishness is only one of many motivators of human behavior - and we now see that it is a rather precarious one as the ethos of a society.
What if, instead, a society functions on giving?
Human social evolution researchers theorize that it is due to an advancement in our ancestors' evolved ability to collaborate in larger numbers that the first large societies emerged. Perhaps we must transcend our primeval instincts once more to accommodate ourselves to our evermore connected society. In the context of intellectual property and the internet, the application of this is to rid of copyright altogether. All information will then become necessarily unshackled from "acquisition" motivated behavior.
Practical considerations:
1) Will there still be motivation to produce goods?
2) What will the producers eat?
3) What about quality?
1) There are many nonprofit producers of goods/services on the net (10,000,000 soundcloud artists, 80,000 Wikipedia editors, Linux, deviantart, etc). Here is a study by Heyman and TEDster Dan Ariely on how monetary motivation does not trump social motivation: http://bit.ly/3xzhna
2) This answer requires a bit of rosy optimism. Ideally, the users of goods/services will support the producers voluntarily, altruistically. The only example of success in this area is Wikipedia, and yet they are still supported by volunteers. However, there is evidence that by participating in a profit-driven system, we are robbed of our motivation to give. Study on how once money is introduced, social norms disappear: http://bit.ly/m8tSsc. Study on how even the concept of money reduces collaborative behavior: http://bit.ly/cHwdD
3) If there is motivation to produce, competition will ensure quality. Here is Dan Pink on intrinsic > extrinsic(monetary) motivation: http://bit.ly/t5WEsL
Andy Maris
Any and all ecomonies are based on the exchange of goods and services. At present one cannot exchange intangibles with infinite value such as years of longevity, happiness, wisdom, love or spiritual peace, though we are free to seek and possess those things. There are no rules saying you must accumulate... in fact if you spend too much effort on accumulating, you will die at 40 of a heart attack.
If you have spent your life pursuing 10 phds, why are you angry at the person who spent their life accumulating $$$? According to your own values, your pursuit was better.
It seems the premise is based on an #OWS disdain for the accumulation of material items which is fundamentally based a sin called "envy." Spending time this way is as flawed as athiests being mad at God for not existing. It's a game you hate, that no one is forcing you to play, yet you play anyway and then cry because you don't like the rules. Sort of like trying to get back at the popular kids who ignored or teased you in junior high.
Very few in this world are inhibited from taking care of their own 4 walls. It is envy of others possessions that is the issue, not the other persons possessions.
Kieran Preissler
David Grammer
Red Slider
http://www.supportows.org/redslider/general-essays-index/buddhist-econ/
Robert Ruffo
I think many here should think hard before embracing Marxist ideology and neo-1960s commune fantasies. Both are at odds with human nature.
Michael McCarthy
And given that it appears that well in excess of 90% of the history of the human species was spent by homo sapiens living in small hunter-gatherer groups where food, which had to be collected on a daily basis, was shared on an equitable basis, what makes you believe that the far more equal distribution of resources which socialists advocate is "at odds with human nature" rather than profoundly in harmony with it?
Capitalism is a very late arrival on the human stage, so it would be absurd to posit that its value system could by now have left an even remotely comparable imprint on man's genetic and psychological inheritance.
Robert Ruffo
Capitalism is as old as trade and markets, so it is actually thousands of years old. Even dogs compete, and somebody wants to be alpha to enjoy such luxuries as taking the first bite from a hunted carcass. Food was never shared on an equitable basis - there were tribal leaders, there were star hunters and they got more than others, especially access to mates.
Here we compete for a Manhattan apartment with a view.
Marxism is a recent construct of fairly clueless academics creating an imaginary world based on how they think people "should" be.
I for one am now going to settle in with a nice glass of $200 wine which I earned by working very hard and being very good at what I do. Thankfully there is Marxist government to force me to give you some, so you can't have any.
Joanne Donovan 30+
Cuba should not to be compared with the USSR at all which is hardly even Marxist on paper. If you are able to be objective at all about world politics Robert, you will see that the USSR has always operated as an Oligarichy (albeit unofficially) capitalist country, very like America is today except for the unofficial part. Instead of reading world politics as if it were a comic book with the players filling the hero and villain roles you have been taught to admire, it would be more accurate if you looked at the facts.
You think anyone else cares about your Manhatten view and what was it? silly $200 bottle of wine? Its the same stuff they pump into the plastic casks, they just make more money when they add faux prestige value, to people who are susceptible to such elitist junk.
Mark Hewitt
Looking simply at Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs or John Nash’s Equilibrium animals including man seek out and act on their desire to survive to sustain to procreate; and thus in current modern times man has seen the acquisition of material wealth as a means to achieve security.
However that all changed as we replaced the accounting system used to measure value and materials in a form of a ponzie scheme by replacing the currency system backed by gold and silver with one backed with a promise or note and no real value – do you remember when gas was 15 cents per gallon?
The discussion around a shift in our economic system is based on our desire to achieve security – I might suggest a short read of the “Metamorphosis Blueprint” here is a link to the paper --> http://bit.ly/fsyEiZ
Leif Thor
Leveraging is something all animals practice, mostly cause it helps keep us alive, but the heart of leveraging is this beautiful natural laziness. Any animal prefers not working to get something as opposed to working for it. This is also Nature's way of problem solving, in that the easiest way is the most efficient way, and Nature loves efficiency.
How do these relate to an alternative economy where material wealth isn't the goal? It turns out for nearly 95,000 years human beings practiced gift economics, which is the opposite of capitalism. Capitalism means to "capitalize or gain height through standing on others shoulders", or to "capitalize over". Gift economics was successfully practiced for so long because we were still moving or nomadic. Once we settled and began growing things, villages grew and the City State was born. The project I'm working on will greatly reduce the leverage city state cultures have over people turning us back in to a peer to peer free culture. leifthor (dot) wordpress (dot) com
Damon Pourtahmaseb-Sasi 50+
Basic food staples are free. Bread, vegetables, eggs, etc, so no one fears starvation.
Basic housing is free. Small apartments mass produced so everyone has a place to live.
Basic transportation is free. Buses, subways, etc are all free, so people can go wherever.
These things would all be subsidized by the government, ensured as basic rights for all people.
Everything else, however... the luxuries... still costs money.
Want a TV? Work for it. Want a house? Work for it. Want a car? Work for it. Want steak? Work for it.
With people's basic rights supplied, work is no longer a NEED, and so jobs lost to the advance of technology is no longer a tragedy. People who do any sort of work gain a form of civic prestige, and in addition are payed for the luxuries they desire.
Now, what does this mean for artists? Simply put, artists can be artists. If you want to paint, save up some money for tools and paint. If you sell your products, great; you get money. If not, maybe painting's not for you, but at least you won't have to worry about starving.
Everything else in society will more or less be the same; there will still be a great need for many types of workers and experts. But there will not be a need for every single citizen to have a job, and so bureaucracy will be lowered and more people have the freedom to pursue their own interests.
The numbers are a tricky thing, I admit. Maybe incentives for small families, to ensure that feeding and housing everyone doesn't cause an explosive birth rate beyond our means to support. And other stuff. But I think it's doable, and I'd like to see how well it works, as well as how it might finally put an end to the myth that people who are given things for free won't work.
Millions of people spend hours on work without pay. Just look at the internet. Create space and freedom for people to experiment in, and many will inevitably produce.
Patricia Ruvalcaba
Another example is the plastic money paradox. Yes, it is money gained, but as you actually don't feel you're giving your money away, you tend to spend more. Same thing happened with the 2008 economic crisis; banks got greedy and started offering credit to people who couldn't actually pay back the credit given, not to mention the interests. What happened? people spent way more money than what they actually gained (that means, the credits they got were used as free-I'll-worry-about-paying-back-later money) and voila! economic crisis!
I think this can be translated to the "giving basic things free" idea. I live on a medium-high class district were we've got our own water wells. Four years ago, the neighbors' counsil discovered we were running out of water because no one was caring about not wasting it. They made us install water meters in our homes and asigned us a fixed quantity depending upon how many of us lived in each house. Results? No more excessive waste of water. The key here was creating a concept of cost. Water's still "free" (we pay maintainance fees), but since we have to actually work for it, we no longer waste it.
In your social experiment, you'll help people? undoubtedly. You'll get burdened with people who live upon what they are given and don't make even the least effort? definitely. Which will be the biggest group? I sincerely don't know.
Damon Pourtahmaseb-Sasi 50+
1) Why would people not be able to own things in the experimental society I outlined? I said nothing about ownership or capital or the lack thereof.
2) Many people currently work for promotions or try to get better jobs not for food, but for luxuries: how would that change in the society I outlined?
3) Why would community management cause fights in the society I outlined? What would be different in that regard?
I'm just having trouble connecting the objections you raised to anything I said.
As for your later point:
"They made us install water meters in our homes and asigned us a fixed quantity depending upon how many of us lived in each house. Results? No more excessive waste of water. The key here was creating a concept of cost. Water's still "free" (we pay maintainance fees), but since we have to actually work for it, we no longer waste it."
This is exactly how the problem of "waste" would be solved. There wouldn't just be an infinite supply of food for everyone to take from whenever they want; people would be given food stamps or food credits, just like now, that would only be able to be spent on those basic food staples (bread, eggs, vegetables, cheese, etc). Why would people be wasteful of these things if it's still limited and finite for each person?
"You'll get burdened with people who live upon what they are given and don't make even the least effort? definitely."
But these people are already a burden. Soup kitchens, homeless shelters... these things can be eradicated by solutions in our grasp. We HAVE the food. We HAVE the space. They don't cost us anything; we as a society simply have to make the decision to distribute them rather than let people starve to prove some philosophical point that benefits no one.
Think of it this way; if they are truly that unmotivated so as to not work for luxuries, what are we proving by letting them starve?
Patricia Ruvalcaba
You raise a good point about soup kitchens and homeless shelters and also about how letting people starve proves nothing. But - a big but - the real problem here is what will happen once people do not need to work.
If, for example, low-paying jobs are what they are nowadays, then I can tell you that a lot of people will choose not working over luxuries and they are right, because working conditions are not fair. Others simply won't even try because climbing the job ladder is quite difficult. So it is very probable that a chunk of society will stop working altogether.
If low-paying jobs start being more fair, then part of that chunk of people that chose not working over luxiries will work. But you will still have a segment of society that won't bring any good to the community. Given, as you have stated, every society will have them.
Nonetheless, we as people are quite the copy cats so, if you've got a bum who doesn't work but does reproduce, most probably his kids will be bums who don't work but do reproduce and you can't actually stop them. The incentives for small families may work, but, unless you actually kill the "spare" kids, the parent may or may not follow government regulations.
When I see a kid that's starving, I feel that's unfair, because he or she isn't given the oportunity to have a dignified life. When I see an adult, I think of a bum. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the adult is another victim of our greedy, capitalist society, but I cannot help the feeling that if she or he wanted to better him or herself, he or she could do it.
I think that's a key point: how to offer a dignified life to everyone, but do not condone being lazy.
Damon Pourtahmaseb-Sasi 50+
How many people will actually choose not to work and be satisfied with no luxuries? "A lot" is an assumption you're making, and an unrealistic one. Millions of teenagers do chores, mow lawns, babysit, flip burgers, etc, all while still living with their parents and having their every need taken care of, many for the sole reason of having spending money or saving up for a luxury like a car.
The major fallacy most people make when considering a capitalistic job market is the assumption that everyone needs to work, without considering that maybe they don't. What if there just aren't enough jobs? Literally, what if there are more people than there are jobs that need people to fill them? In a purely capitalistic system, that means unemployment and misery. With the proper social systems in place, it's just an inconvenience. It would be good to have more jobs so more people can share in the wealth they provide, but no one is starving.
Part of the reason low paying jobs are low paying is because they're incredibly easy to fill. Even if your assumption was correct and a bunch of people stopped working, guess what? Companies would have to offer higher pay for their jobs to get the positions filled. If they don't need to, then enough people are working. So what's the problem if a bunch of people don't work? We don't need them to work. All the jobs are filled. We still have enough food and space for them.
Also, how does your view of people as copy cats not work both ways? You insist that people will stop working and have kids just because others do, but not that they would want to work if others do?
alex Colleman
We a very close to times when material or non-material wealth will be produced with minimal effort thanks to technology. Capitalism is a system to give incentives to people to do work they don't want to do. We all like to create, to give to others, feel good about ourselves. (Vast majority of us) Robots will do repetitive work. We will do creative work we like.
R B
R B
Mitch SMith 50+
I have been thinking on this for a few years. What we see in this IP war is based on the end-point of a few falacies:
Falacy 1 - real-estate is infinite.
Falacy 2 - the environment is infinite.
Falacy 1 has fallen becuase there is no real estate left - so the real-estate agents seek new land in cyberspace.
Fallacy 2 has fallen - we now see that the environment is about to tank.
How did this happen?
This happened because of the nature of currency - to begin the coins corresponded to real value - stored grain. The farmers took the harvest and stored it in community stores for protection over the winter when nothing grows.
During the winter, the coins (or shells or stones) were redemed by the farmers to recover their share - and so the farmer's family survived to the next harvest according to what they put in.
But what happens when rats have invaded the store and there is nothing left to redeme but rat-poo?
But ..The coins remained ...
And so it is today - what we call "capital" is coins that represent grain that is no longer there.
And who are the rats?: They are the store-keepers (aka bankers) and all that is left in the silo is banker-poo.
THis model has not changed in 5000 years. The bankers insist that we must have "growth" to make up for all they have despoiled from us. And the shortfall is ripped from the ground we walk on and extracted from the air we breath.
Well there's a new kind of air now - it's called the internet. We can see it all unfold before our eyes, and we will not again allow ourselves to eat bankers' poo. Not in the internet, and no longer in our ground and no longer in our air.
We never needed them.
But we are so far gone down the path of lies and exploitation that it is going to take a long transition back.
The first step is to recognise our mistake, we then move forward step by step.
What we have now, that we didn't have before?
Now we know where we are going, and there is no longer any excuse for complaicency
Scott Corbitt
For example, my brother made a chrome app that would let you see when you had comments on Facebook: he did this because he thought it would be useful to him, and it only took a few minutes to make it public for everyone. When it got many downloads, he was hired to work for Facebook. Russel Richard seems to be under the impression that the Internet works without Capitalism - in reality, the capitalism is there, just usually invisible.
Mitch SMith 50+
Scott Corbitt
I would also like to point out there is no such thing as "the will of the community" or, as Rousseau stated it, "the general will". Will is a characteristic specific to individuals, not groups. Humanity is not a massmind. Any belief that is built on humanity as a massmind, or the general will of humanity or the community, is inherently misguided.
Mitch SMith 50+
R B
Scott Corbitt
Mitch SMith 50+
Capitalism worked just fine . but it had a problem - it uses a thing called "currency" currency assumes that it represents redeamable value .. but the value rots while the coin endures. After a while, the currency is no longer current - the value has expired. Expired value is what we call "capital". THe value is replenished by exploitation (taking value for no return).
It can only be sustained by what the bankers call "growth" - sort of like a desparate "leap-frog" to get away from the cascading debt you leave behind - the difference between the currency and the value.
But now - all the growth is curtailed - there is no new continent to exploit, there is no new race to enslave, there is no more sea or air to poison. And the Global debt collector is on our doorstep.
We must fix our currency as a matter of urgency - instead of linking it to gold - link it to grain - and let it wax and wain according to the grain - it then becomes currency again. and all that has expired will be seen to be gone, the gap will be seen and draw real value from the community - not more derivative schemes.
Ultimately, we must question why sheer trust is not enough - you think that's a utopian dream? I assure you it is not - I live it and I see it in many places that few get to see. It works, but you have to see it to beleive it. And once you see it - you will not ever turn back.
Scott Corbitt
Also, this debt you keep complaining about was created by government regulation: the Federal Reserve regulators strictly enforced the Equal Lending Act, which caused banks to make subprime loans.
Also, the value of gold is fairly constant, and ideal for currency: I direct you to http://www.321gold.com/fed/greenspan/1966.html. However, grain is hardly ideal: it rots easily, is constantly consumed (in your system, that would be eating money!) is unsplittable, and - unlike gold - has decreased in price throughout history. So your baseless accusation that gold loses value, actually applies more to grain, which you choose as a substitute.
Although you seem confused, we haven't really been on a gold currency for a hundred years: all the inflation since 1913 was caused by the fed. So if you have a problem with currency devaluation, debasement, and destruction, the solution is to end the fed, not capitalism.
Russell Richard
So, if you have a terrible idea, you probably won't make any money (and we can't always assume what ideas will be terrible, some people once considered pet rocks to be a great idea and hey were proved right)
And if you never do work, you also won't be rewarded.
And some people will make it big! They don't stash that money away in some huge vault as physical currency. If a person has made it big, that person and their descendants will have the ability to fund people with great ideas in the future.
Relating to the original topic, perhaps if we don't have to worry about physical needs, then the currency in which we will deal will be recognition for good ideas. The difference being here that descendants probably won't reap the benefit of the parent's creation as much as in a money and resource based system.
Mitch SMith 50+
Mitch SMith 50+
Michael McCarthy
edward long 100+
And, seriously, the same for a capitalist society as you describe it? Thanks.
Michael McCarthy
Is there a capitalist world which operates essentially as I have described? What element/s in my description do you find difficulty in identifying in any number of so-called free market capitalist countries in the contemporary world?
edward long 100+
Scott Corbitt
Michael McCarthy
These are, needless to say, very different conceptions of health care. Depends what you want to minimise: taxes, or infant mortality and avoidable suffering. Also on what you prefer to maximise: profits for private health insurance companies, or social well-being.
Scott Corbitt
Russell Richard
Luxury goods in such a system are automatically removed from the market. They contradict the idea that no one person should have substantially more wealth than any other person. Unfortunately, luxury goods are the places where many innovations are made. Things like cars, finely stitched clothing, and white bread were originally luxury goods.
Scott Corbitt
Michael McCarthy
However it's also possible to conceptualise taxation as a transfer system within capitalist societies which enables the reproduction of the profit system by reducing the toxic disaffection, and the consequential breakdown of the society, which would tend to occur if only the wealthy could enjoy clean water, food, housing, education, health care, essential personal security, etc.
In an egalitarian, non-capitalist society, more equitable ways of covering the society's essential running expenses and necessary generational transfers will no doubt be developed. But no conceivable advanced society could function without some system, which it might be a gross oversimplification to call theft, for pooling resources and transferring some to the young, the old and the needy.
Rhona Pavis 50+
Russell Richard
I agree that somewhere inside of each of us there is a part that is afraid to be without food and a home. It is biological. Those without food and home die. Therefore, if we can buy more stuff, we do. It adds to our home and makes us feel more secure.
Economics is generally based on the idea that every person always wants more and better stuff than they currently have. If every person in an economic system were to say, "Nope, I have enough. I don't want any more.", how would we get people to innovate and create new ideas and technologies? how would we reward them for making our lives better?
Do we have to?
pete rilagan
Mitch SMith 50+
Mitch SMith 50+
To begin with - you lock up your car for a month to educate yourself about what you waste and how that waste wrecks your body.
Second, you admit the difference betweeen "job" and "work" - you see that a job is what you do for money and work is what you do for yourself - then you ask your self, who or what is getting the benefit of your time and effort - is it you? Or money? Then ask yourself if money was worth serving and quit your job, find your work.
Are you afraid? .. does anyone love you? IF no one loves you .. how did that happen? And if anyone loves you - how can you be afraid?
I tell you that there is no one on this planet that does the work of Russell Richard better than Russell Richard can.
Rhona Pavis 50+
Mikey Lee
Also, we have to question why it is we have the drive to acquire material wealth. It is independent from the economic model - it is human nature.
We're animals. We live for the advancement of our species, procreate, have babies, whom we want to be better, stronger, healthier than us. To do so, we buy things or aim for a lifestyle that will help us acheive this. Better clothes, better car, better things, to attract better mates. Better education for a better job for more money. etc etc.
There will always be a drive to accumulate and acquire "things", whether material or otherwise.
Russell Richard
I agree. The internet is not really free. Somebody buys the equipment on which the data of the internet is stored. it is all based on physical items that must be purchased and maintained.
It is a standard economic concept that the cost of an item is the lowest price at which it can be purchased (withing a reasonable time frame and distance). But, copying information based products is theft. It doesn't fit in the construct of economics. It operates outside of the cost rule because it sets the cost to zero. Here we have a problem. The people who consume data based products generally copy (steal) them. They do this without even thinking about it. To them, it's just another piece of data, just like any other. To believe that the government will be able to stop this theft with a law is foolish at best. There is no way to actually stop data copying short of destroying the equipment on which it is done.
Therefore, because we cannot get rid of this kind of theft, we are going to have to find a way to live with it.
And probably within this century, we will be having this same conversation for many physical objects, and soon after, all products of all kinds. The normal economic principles don't work when most of the consumers steal the things they consume. We are going to have to come up with a new kind of economics. I'm just wondering what that will be.
pete rilagan
Xavier Belvemont 30+
Its almost obligatory to mention a startrek-style economy as an answer.
(Replicator devices to create anything required and efficient energy generators to sustain them)
Interestingly it isn't as far off as you might imagine (the replicators atleast).
Prototype Bio-3d-printers are a great step into that kind of direction.
(I would assume that besides medical, the technology could be altered to 'print' food at some point).
That in-line with the post below regarding the internet makes the goal ever more likely, even if it is perhaps in the far distant future.
There is also something known as the Venus project, but from what I've seen there is essentially a lot of talk from the project but they never actually say anything, which to me seems like a political way of saying 'I've got nothing'.
Russell Richard
If media companies are worried about us copying songs and TV shows, imagine the rage of food companies against a food copying machine.
Russell Richard
We have invented a very powerful replicator for information and content called the internet. In fact, it is so powerful that it replicates content whether we want it to or not. It also is even more powerful in that it freely generates content.
What happens when we are able to generate all things - physical items included - as easily as we can generate content on the internet? The economics of the world would break down if everything suddenly became free.
It would be my hope that the driving force in our lives would shift to become the acquisition of spiritual wealth, wisdom, and knowledge. How would such a society work? What would it look like? Would we stagnate because there is no incentive? How would we transition from this economy to the other, understanding that the technology to get us there will not suddenly appear?
edward long 100+
I will replicate 4 Ferraris to top your three! It's about human nature. Acquiring wealth is just how we keep score. Some people want to be 1 percenters.
Mitch SMith 50+
Why do we seek advantage?
To me it seems pretty obvious - to survive.
Do we need all the advantage we have gained to survive the natural environment?
Obviously not.
Do we need so much advantage to survive the social environment?
Absolutely.
Why is this?
Because we fear each other.
This is the mechanics of greed - we hoard advantage to match the advantage of our neighbor.
How did this come about?
The fear started somewhere .. territorial needs perhaps .. uneven advantage perhaps .. the behaviour of sociopaths/psychopaths/alpha males.
Is all this fear desirable?
Obviously not.
SO what do we do about it?
edward long 100+
Mitch SMith 50+
I think addressing the basic fear would go further.
edward long 100+
Mitch SMith 50+
It is true, that I have observed massive greed and avarice in humans. But I have also observed great goodwill and selfless sacrifice. Personal advantage cannot be the only rule as it is not universally observed.
If the propensity to personal advantage is natural - what is the mechanism? Can it be adjusted?
I would not even bother to ask this except that I have seen whole communities thrive on the practice of goodwill .. For much of my life I thought this an impossiblity, it came as a complete surprise.
From that, I suspect that we become overly accustomed to unfinished understanding of concepts we hold to be indivisible .. (call it "fashion"?) and that subsequent experience reveals that these "basics" are indeed divisible! But that fashion prevents acceptance.
In this I am supported by the new understandings of networked systems - and their danger of falling into "local minima" which prevents them finding the absolute minimum.
I suspect that all human exploitation is based on local minima, with the exploiter being in secret posession of the absolute minimum. I suspect that we are well skilled at this.
So if fear is a necessary signal to enable survival - that some degree of personal advantage is mandated as a default, perhaps greed and avarice are the unbalanced extension of personal advantage. If this is so, then perhaps we should look to the laws of diminished-return to find our balance?
What are your thoughts?
edward long 100+
Zaz Tao 30+
"Why do we seek advantage?
...
Because we fear each other."
I think this line of thought misses the central driver behind what we see as greed today. When we look at our closest evolutionary relatives, we see that the alpha male in the group can have reproductive access to all the females, particularly the most desirable. Today, for us, the striving male that has climbed past survival and comfort next seeks mating with highly desirable females. Current first world culture draws the most attractive females into the class known as Supermodels and readily pays them dollars by the million. The aspiring alpha male of today has to compete his way into the billions if they aspire to a harem of such women. Yachts, helicopters and phallic office buildings aren't enough anymore. One needs to buy whole governments, command slave armies, start private space programs, etc.
Fear in the sense of insecurity is likely to be a component of such drive, but imagine the perks of such wealth with today's technologies: Buying people for replacement organs, breakfast in Paris and dinner in Tokyo, ordering assassinations, converting any outrageous whim into physical reality...
Today's top monkey gets closer to a god all the time, and soon immortality will be on the auction block. Not much incentive to share it all.
Zaz Tao 30+
I will replicate 4 Ferraris to top your three! "
I would imagine that to go from here and now to there and then, that would be a common occurrence. But I also imagine that it would soon be recognized as a sort of mental illness or at least childish behavior.
In my mind, there is no question that technology will get there, including virtually unlimited matter and energy to feed such manufacturing at our whim.
The bigger problem that I see is that with our current economic organization, that such capability will be achieved by the few and used to keep the many enslaved. If you think about it, we are well past halfway toward this dream of replication. A small minority of humans are involved in making all of the really hot manufactured goods: computers, smartphones and automobiles. Largely, this manufacturing has moved from the U.S. to the other side of the Pacific to a labor force that is far more compliant than union-spoiled Yankees. The world has millions of small farmers that can scarcely compete with just a few highly automated agribusinesses.
It seems obvious that the trend is toward manufacture without human labor and ever more concentrated ownership and profit from that production.
edward long 100+
Mitch SMith 50+
The cogent bit is what happens to a primate colony when all the alpha males are removed.
I agree that there is carrot as well as stick in the personal advantage equation.
I also agree that a kind of rebirth is required. Although I do not ascribe to the anthropomorphic god model, I see the universal outgrowth as something that sits in harmony with religions - certainly enough to not criticise the basis of ancient wisdom.
If I was to call my central dogma "god" then it is a(the?) god that invites me to explore his mystery - to split the assumptions and move closer to the advancing wave of "truth" (for want of a better word).
Once again - I point to the laws of diminished return to regulate balance. No water is bad - you die of thirst, enough water is good - you are hydrated, too much water is bad - you drown in it.
Many instances of diminished return are much harder to detect. For instance, when I had way too much money, I started to suffer from "lifestyle diseases" - it was certainly fun, but I am glad to have gotten out of that before having to feed all my wealth into medical postponement of the inevitable end.
As for Harems .. I had one of those as a pennyless itinerate musician .. no need for even one Ferrari .. and as the game theorists demonstrate - going for the top prise results in no one getting it.
And then there's the local minima .. the untested assumptions. They seem like the rocks we walk on, but until you actually try things, they are perpetually ghosts - we assume they have truth, but they don't. And let's face it - it is our very capacity to assume that allows us such quick adaptation. I am the happy man who fell through the ghosts. Inspiration and hardship have taught me much. I can site the events if asked. THere are other things I could talk about that sound like sheer mysticism, but the language of sciience will do for now.
Zaz Tao 30+
Man-hours and machine-hours only cost money because people imagine it that way. I believe that we have to get past that thinking. Just like your Monopoly metaphor, it's a game and we can make up new and better games to play.
Reading your other posts leads me to the assumption that you may be a Christian. I don't claim to be one myself nor can I believe that the Bible is the literal word of God.
I do however think that "Love thy enemy" and the Sermon on the Mount are pure genius. Add the Golden Rule and you can leave the rest to historians and anthropologists.
To be "born again" is perhaps a psychological trick that may work for some and perhaps they can feel forgiven and proceed on a more virtuous life with added peace of mind. Others will not be able to accept enough of the story to get anywhere near that activity.
I do believe that most, if not all children, when raised well with kindness, love and gentle, wise guidance, could go through life without a word of Gospel or any other religion and still be as ethical and virtuous as the most pious parishioner.
I respect someone striving to be a good person, but communication is difficult with those who take biblical teaching as literal truth. As the metaphors put forth by ancient writers in an attempt to reach toward answers to life's mysteries, scripture offers much to ponder and a starting point for all the ethics and philosophy that has been written since.
In my understanding, the only time Christ displayed anger was toward the moneychangers at the temple. I can't help but think he would be an equal-rights, gay-friendly, pacifist hippie socialist if he were around today.
edward long 100+
Mitch SMith 50+
Right now, I am operating from my "egg" - I feel the need to broadcast. Injustice and the struggles of humans draw us here, it's fun, but there is no real answer in it.
@MR Long. My experience with raising an Autistic child has given me massive insight into the process of selfishness and rebellion .. the tendency towards these things comes from the social environment - not from the child. THis environment lays close-in to what we perceive as the child .. it's an illusion that exists in the adult, not the child.
The economy of the "holy spirit" (unified life wave) works well for those in it .. but one must first be in it. But the good of the "holy spirit" radiates outwards to good and bad alike - we cannot deny our fellows, lost or found - if it is asked, then it is given.
Zaz Tao 30+
Robert Sapolsky is one highly enlightened and dedicated scientist, and apparently pretty badass with a blowgun! Everybody should give a listen to anything and everything that man has to say. He has a TED talk by the way:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/robert_sapolsky_the_uniqueness_of_humans.html
and features prominently in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel
which although an excruciatingly long video, is right in line with this overall conversation.
As for all that "law of diminishing return" stuff, well, the Buddhists are much better at talking about balance then economists, who cooked up said "law."
In my opinion, (which is not usually humble,) 99% of economic theory is utter nonsense. I place the validity of current economic theory significantly below the validity of psychology at the time when it was leaving Sigmund Freud's pen. Here and there might be a half-truth or a roughly sensible supposition like "supply and demand," but people make up economic rules, then break them immediately after. Economists seem to have little grasp of new inventions and their impact, and aren't likely to wrap their heads around the Internet and what it means to ... just about everything.
Mitch SMith 50+
I have long questioned on the role of the sociopath and psychopath - and had the privelidge to speak to a PHD who studied them (the real "silence of the lambs" psych). THe sociopath is an environmentally made defect, the psychopath is hereditary. It is possible that both these conditions can be fixed. But it probably won't be until we abandon repect for the "alpha male" principle in our society and make it obvious who needs healing.
It is from these defects that all the destructive dominance behaviours arise. I have not conceived a satisfactory method to detect and deal with them without wrecking civil society in the process. Evolution is the only way I can see.
Be careful not to dis the economists so easily - many of these have been brilliant mathematicians and philosophers - the theory they delivered is quite powerful. THe ones you refer to are just the psychophantic clones who occupy the void that currency creates - they, for the most part, haven't a clue about how money operates.
As I indicate - the laws of diminished return are missing from the eqations - I observed it starkly as a supply chain forcasting expert - my contribution to the market statistics world was to identify methods to separate natural and induced demand so that supermarkets could forecast underlying demand and the effects of promotion (to 95% accuracy). My other contributions were to identify natural efficiencies in warehouse input/output and to identify the market-identified unit consumed in fashion items (mobile phone handsets).
These statistical forecasting systems DO identify diminished returns in questions of supply/.demand, but they do not identify it in so much else that makes up economy (ROI for instance or labor efficiency or company size morale or extraction of natural wealth).
Also significantly missing from economy is the REAL bank - the Earth.