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Do Self Realization and Self Creation happen simultaneously?

I feel so. However, George Bernard Shaw said, Life isn't about finding yourself, life is about creating yourself. Can we create ourselves without self-realization? If one has to choose the investment of his precious time in either finding itself or creating itself, do these need different/ separate/ special time & approaches? If realization happens with a mix of spiritual & real experiences then can self creation happen in real world? Are spiritual & real world different? What is the best way?

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  • Jan 17 2012: Hi Don,

    Thanks for the link. Some of the thoughts are very nice to know.

    "My own experience gives me a quick answer to your question and my reply is 'No.'" .... 'No' is definitely the quickest and the shortest answer. And perhaps it is the answer. But which part of the question did you reply to? In the middle of confusing thoughts even i tend to give this answer to myself. But then, i choose to explore it. I feel that it is very important to know oneself and then stick to a chosen path.

    Hope, you reflect yourself more and i get to know the details of your experience and reason(s) behind your belief.

    Thanks.
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      • Feb 6 2012: Thank you so much Don. Would love to know the details of the process you went through in last three weeks. It will mean a lot to me in getting perhaps a different perspective.

        Thank you,
        Manuj
  • Feb 11 2012: Hi Manuj,

    I find myself well connected with you. In order to be effective in any giving situation being connected remains to be important.
    So in order to know more about the confusion one needs to know the knower and instruments of knowing that the knower is using and find out where is the root cause of confusion originated.
    Lets say that I might be standing at the window looking out at the sky and I may see the sky appears dirty. Now I have to find out where the dirt is....before I conclude that sky is dirty. The instruments to see are my eyes..let me clean my eyes first and see the sky...if still does look dirty than I may conclude my eyes as instruments are clear. Now let me see the medium thru which I see...glass.. let me clean them and then see ...do I still see the sky dirty! if I do ...let me clean the glass of the window...and once I see thru clean eyes and clean window glass sky would appear clean and not dirty...
    same way lets look at the thinker who may look confused. Thinker is always independent of thoughts and when he is bound by thoughts he appears to be clear or confused in thoughts depending up on the nature of thoughts yet he always is separate from thoughts.
    Now if we get in to the nature of thoughts..I would say that they are conditional, circumstantial and thus are not fixed. Why would I worry about somethings in life if they are conditional and not fixed? But we want them to control and change them rather than see them as moving phenomena. More we try to control those things which are more and beyond control we loose our intellectual and spiritual equilibrium .
    I feel that you are very well grounded and balanced thinker and with full equilibrium and that moment you realize that
    confusion, contradictions and even pain are of the nature that are temporal , conditional and time bound when you are
    well established, predictable and deep inner thinker.

    Now allow your self to spend more time with this well established, predictable thinker.
    • Feb 11 2012: Mr Shah,

      Two amazing thoughts by you which made my journey further interesting are that mostly what we call self creation is self manifestation and thinker is always independent of thoughts. I can imagine what you meant by self manifestation, this resolved a personal situation... though i do feel the need of appreciation, but i seldom feel good when people appreciate any thing done/created by me. Because, what others feel creative is (now i realize) a known manifestation to me.

      I think i should remember that tendency to control self also leads to control things beyond my control. A bit of acceptance there would allow me far more time to remain focused on things which i can do. Thank you. Its good, i think that is why we need friends, to remind us of some forgotten thoughts at the right time(like the sky through the window) and also provide with a fresh perspective, like, i am independent of thoughts...i am a medium through which my own chosen thoughts pass...experiencing them & allowing them to to pass through is important than trying to change/control them. A bit of acceptance & patience will help me.
  • Feb 10 2012: All human activities has reality of simultaneousness. This reality would be perceived based on the instruments of perceptions such as sensory faculties,thinking faculties or cognitive abilities of experiencer. Level of self realization
    is dependent upon the circumstantial experiential position of realizer( avastha). Self manifestation could be loosely defined as Self Creation. It is more of a phenomena of something which is potential dormant and with the element of time, space & causation it appears to be created. Transformation of moisture in air evaporating , then becoming clouds and rain is more of transformation process which may appear to be created. Thus Self Potential which is more intangible when manifest itself thru transformation in time space it appears to be created.
    Spiritual world has it's own reality yet it is not separate from so called real world such as light coming from light bulb is separate yet it is part of the bulb.

    Atman..soul..spiritual self is separate from the body but is pervasive thru body and its faculties derive its life from spiritual self...soul..Atman...As an example car does have it's body and machine yet it derives its power of motion thru charged Battery and fuel yet car is running on the road not its battery neither fuel.

    The being and becoming are separate from each other yet they both are woven in human existence and they both are choice less in real reality. In relative reality it appears to have a choice. To understand yourself spiritually you may have different means and methods than understanding your bodily existence. As the means and methods to drive a car is different from flying a plane yet they both are means of travel.

    The best way is to first know that you are pure soul from real point of view and you are Manuj from relative point of view.
    Both point of views are real in there own place. This awareness will provide you appropriate means and methods and balance between both by just built in know how.
    • Feb 10 2012: Thank you very much Mr Shah. Then why do i feel so much stress, contradictions* and pain? Am i at the stage of the car which is just trying to start on its battery & fuel and is yet to derive momentum? Or is it always going to be this much effortful? How long does it take for life to stop giving contradictory thoughts/results and become predictable? At what stage a path begins to prove itself the rightly chosen one?
      • Feb 11 2012: Hi Manuj,

        The need to find out the reasons why we all feel stressed,contradiction and pain in life is good start. Sincere WHY always finds right answers. Right efforts with right tools may bring right answers. Secondly too much effortful or less or how long are some of the preoccupations of mind that comes in the way of right efforts. So may we not burden ourselves with how much and how long for now.
        The expectation to have life without stress,contradictions and pain is also very burdensome or to avoid them also does not allow us an opportunity to understand them. Can I be under pain and still have the ability to understand...what is the pain, who is having the pain...such inner inquiries will lead us to understand the pain better...and to understand objectively requires observation. The part which observes objectively brings true understanding. Observing and understanding pain allows you to transcend the pain without negation of pain and this process of transcending helps not to be influenced by pain without getting rid of it. So many scientific findings are based on objective observation and then such principals are used in its applications to better life. Such as manifestation of car and planes etc.

        The answer to the question that "Am I at the stage of the car.... " remains less important from the fact that you do have a car with battery and fuel. To derive the momentum would be easy..since you do observe that it may need more momentum. To stop giving contradictory thoughts/results and become predictable .. I am not sure if they are related. Predictability in life.. to some extent is always
        there..such as days, nights,sun, moon etc. While contradictory thoughts put in action would bring contradicting results...so may we inquire about thoughts and contradictions! or do we have to understand the thinker who may be confused.

        To be a thinker who is not confused may require to understand the instruments of thinking and the thinking entity. Sounds comlicated.
        • Feb 11 2012: No, it sounds uncomplicated. Your efforts in bringing in clarity here is much appreciated.

          Request elaborate on "To be a thinker who is not confused may require to understand the instruments of thinking and the thinking entity." Thinking comes easy to me, the problem is that it comes easy to me, so i end up thinking all possibilities and to the extent that each possibility seems right, even the contradictory ones. Is "truth" the only instrument for thinking or its one of the instruments?

          Thank you.
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          Feb 11 2012: Manuj,
          Thinking is one part of the process of self realization and self creation, and in that respect is important to us.

          You say..." Thinking comes easy to me, the problem is that it comes easy to me, so i end up thinking all possibilities and to the extent that each possibility seems right, even the contradictory ones".

          I ask you...how attached are you to the "right" thought? Thoughts are simply thoughts, and usually based on information we already have. What happens when/if we suspend the thoughts (mind chatter) and allow information to "flow" through us?

          Well, I'll tell you what happens.....it opens up a LOT more possibilities. As long as the mind is engaged in trying to put things in an order that we think we know, we do not recognize new information, and therefor miss opportunities.

          For example, if I decided that I wanted to be without any pain what-so-ever in my life, then I may be frustrated and angry when I have pain. I accept pain as part of the life experience, and I realize that it comes and goes, and I don't dwell on it. Harish speaks about transcending pain, and this is how we do it. When we struggle against it, the struggle (anger, frustration, etc.) gives it energy to exist. When we accept it and face it on many levels, we realize that it is simply part of the process....in my humble opinion:>)
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        Feb 11 2012: Manuj,
        Sometimes, when we are on a path of discovery in ourselves, we go to a deeper level of understanding, perhaps we don't like what we see there, and it may feel like contradictions. When we discover and embrace new information it may feel contradictory if we are attached to the old patterns, thoughts and feelings. Change is difficult for humans, even if we're changing to something more evolved than before:>)

        You ask..."how long does it take for life to stop giving contradictory thoughts/results and become predictable? At what stage a path begins to prove itself the rightly chosen one?"
        Life does not give contradictory thoughts/results....life is simply life, and within the life experience there are many different situations. It is our perception of the life experience that colors our thoughts/feelings, and our thoughts/feelings color our perception :>)

        Harish speaks about "preoccupations of mind"...I call it mind chatter. The more we occupy our mind with mind chatter, probably the more confused we may be. We (humans) often try to control situations by putting things in a logical perspective. That is one "tool", and sometimes, it helps to simply surender to the reality of the situation, rest the "thinking" mind, and be open to possibilities.

        I agree with Harish that "the expectation to have life without stress,contradictions and pain is also very burdensome or to avoid them also does not allow us an opportunity to understand them".
        Many times, people try to avoid or resist dealing with the underlying feelings of stress, pain and contradiction. They want these feelings to simply go away....it is a form of resistance. When we resist anything, it simply causes a struggle. I like to use the core belief of Martial Arts with life experiences....come from the core with strength and yeild. To do this, we need to know ourselves, and to know ourselves, we need to face all of the feelings. This is what brings contentment to our lives:>)
        • Feb 11 2012: Colleen !!! you are wonderful as ever.

          I love the way you simplify things and stop my mind from chattering.

          I think i am getting confused because when i try to mix pleasures of realizing & creating self together, i tend to control some of my thoughts/actions and accept some of them rather than just liberate myself from right or wrong.

          I will give you a small example of contradiction, which happens with me almost everyday. When i am approached by beggars on street, i think by giving them something i am promoting it & making them habitual of begging and i also think that in the moment he/she needs it or perhaps its the job he/she is unwillingly doing just like most people in the world. So, i resort to my feeling in the moment, if i feel like i give, if i dont feel like i dont. But i feel bad for allowing my feelings to govern the situation than any logic.
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        Feb 11 2012: That's very kind of you to say Manuj....thank you:>)

        Are you actually controling your thoughts/actions, or are they controling you? Liberating yourself from your perception of right or wrong sounds like a good idea:>)

        Re: Your example of contradiction...
        "Feeling" is just as important as "thinking", don't you think/feel?
        You decide on a logical level that you don't want to give to beggers because it promotes a habitual behavior. That's logical.
        You see them and "feel" that they may need what you have to give, so you say you "resort to" your feeling in the moment.

        Do you feel obligated to stick with your logical decision no matter what? Or do you feel you can change the manifestation of the logical decision if you feel differently at some point in time?
        Why do you need to "feel bad for allowing...feelings to govern" at a particular moment? You feel that your logical decision is "right", and so you will not waver from that decision without feeling bad? Why do you choose to create this contradiction in yourself?

        You have choices in any moment....stick to your logical decision, change your pattern because you feel differently in the moment, and there are more choices as well. How does it serve you or anyone else to feel bad because of the choice you made in the moment?

        It is by recognizing all our options that we experience self realization and self creation simultaneously:>)
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    Jan 17 2012: Hi Manuj,
    Interesting topic. I cannot give you any more thumbs up...maxed out for the week:>)

    I believe that everything is interconnected, so with that in mind, I believe that self realization and self creation many times happens simultaneously. It depends on how mindful and aware we are in each and every moment. We CAN explore these seperately with different thoughts, feelings, ideas, opinions, practices, etc. I don't honestly understand the point in that...do you?

    My perception is, that as I am learning and realizing more about myself through the life exploration, I also am creating how I choose to be in this world. Actually, I don't think/feel that we need to "find" anything. I think/feel it's more a practice of remembering. I believe we have a lot of information available to us that has been passed down for a long time. We simply need to tap into the information, as we tap into our "self" and what we can learn and experience.

    Whatever we choose to call the experiences as individuals, I believe to be valid. As we are in human form, what we experience certainly is "real". If one believes that we are energy, or spirit beings, that too is real for us. If/when we bring these realities together, then we are experiencing the best of both realities within the lilfe (human) experience?
    Yes? No? Maybe?
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    Feb 11 2012: Manuj :

    If you have really read Bernard Shaw , you should have to realize that the self-creation it's nothing you choose and it's not optional, by it he explains the reality ; self-creation and self-realization are equal at him as long as he is talking about human beings .
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    Jan 17 2012: Hi Manuj,

    I think self realization and self creation are different things.

    We are born with a potential of possibilities or talents and with our unique make-up that we may discover, explore and express in the world. That I call self realization.

    Self creation is a bit different in that it suggest to acquire an image or form that you will identify with and expose that construct to the world. I would call this a false ego because it isn't founded in your own inner being but on externals like idols and ideals that you may adopt by (any) reason.

    George Bernard Shaw had a different mindset common to his time by which the world and all life was rather seen as mechanical.