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Arie Johannes de Vries

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Why does the Occupy movement seems to fail?

This movement seemed to had almost everything, great media atention, great intentions, shocking information, famous celeberties, some famous people supporting the movement. but still after all these things, it seems the occupy is slowly going down.

most of the dutch occupy movements dissapeard, or seem like ghost-movements with no-one to talk with about the movement.

did this movement fail because they had no leader? or because of the kinda messy website? or because the messenge wasn't clear enough? maybe because they had no plan for improvement? or is it that the working class is mostly to bussy to pay any attention?

i've never joint this movement, so far, they just took my attention, and i think they really did their best to change this world in a good kind of way.

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Topics: occupy occupy wall street
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    Tim Petersen

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    Jan 16 2012: Hello Arie, SOPA is an acronym for Stop Online Piracy Act in the House of Representatives. It is called PIPA in the Senate, Protect IP Act. It has been momentarily shelved for 2012 in the House.
    My implication of dishonesty was toward our elected officials who seem to be working overtime to protect the personhood of the corporations and total disregard for the population. Even though this bill is temporarily shelved it will be back and if the past behavior of our leaders is a guiding light then we can expect the bill to be passed in the middle of the night as an amendment to some other bill which is seemingly for the benefit of our soldiers or the elderly. It is how the congress operates, always has and will until their power and relationship to corportions is interupted.
    When I am talking about the inner workings of our government and corporations, including the Federal Reserve, the World Bank, and the International Monetary Fund I am sometimes defensive. I don't waht to ever be short or quip with anyone and if my words ever offend you, please say so, I'd rather lose my tongue than to harm our working relationship as we strive for a better world for our children. Many times, in similar discussions I am overwhelmed with others disbelief or denial. All to often, I find myself defending incidents of fraud, theft and lies committed by the public and corporate officials. An example; we have a man vying for the republican presidential candidate who twenty years ago fought for the impeachment of the president at the time for having an adulteress affair and lied about it when questioned. Today, we know that this candidate was not only involved in an adulteress affair at the same time, but has had two subsequent affairs since then. Each time he has divorced and left his wife for a younger model only after being caught. This is a leader? This is someone we can trust? His family doesn't even trust him!
    Thank you for being here.
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    Tim Petersen

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    Jan 15 2012: I beg to differ, Arie, the Occupy movement I am aware of is succeeding to this day. Have patience, and do not fall prey to corporate mis-information. Remember, the established that the occupy movement is resisting is the very ones who own and control the media, the business, the congress, the judicial and the executive branches of the government. Please, give them not only your patience, but give to them your support as well. The correct information is out there,dig a little deeper.

    • Arie Johannes de Vries

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      Jan 16 2012: i'm aware of documentaries like zeitgeist 1 till 3, the corperation (docu), money obselencence (docu), and a hudge amounth of other documentaries spreading the same messenges. the messenges wich i've never heard of before on television, for so far.
      i could dig deeper, but i think i know enough of this unfair unsecure world we live in today. i try to find a way to bring the power to the people, and not the corperations wich is still happening today. democracy nowadays is a start, but there could be far more democratic by the upcome of the internet.
      i surely have the will to support the occupy, but not the faith for effective change.
      in the near future i will come up with my own political group wich supports real democratics by internet.

      http://www.ted.com/conversations/8438/an_interactive_government_webs_1.html

      I'm thinking more and more, that the occupy movement is waiting for this tool, to strengthen their anti capitalism movement, and make progress by thinking like a political for the needs of the country, for the needs of the people.

      one for all, and all for one.
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        Tim Petersen

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        Jan 16 2012: I am far from absolutely sure about the precise direction of the movement, myself. I think you bring up a good point, though, they seem to be waiting for someone or something to arrive. I have no idea what that will be. They are having an effect on our political race and they have changed or daily conversations. Relatively speaking, the movement is young in its conception. I expect them to remain at least until the presidentiol elections. The evidence of their impact is in the willingness of our police to violate constitutional rights by beating and arresting them. This is the result of power feeling very uncomfortable. If they remain, something will break, something will grow. The resolutions of a victory I hear would be to circumscribe the power and relationships between our politicians and the corporate monetary influences. Firedoglake is a great location for updates and was an influence in blocking an amendment by Rep. Watts,D,NC who tried to restrict the bill sponsored by Grayson/Paul to investigate the Federal Reserve. I can't help but think the movement is invigorating the conscious awareness of otherwise bully congressmen and women. The Huffington Post published this just this morning, news of the Fed's being defeated, not that Occupy had anything to do with it, that is my personal assessment. I believe they are having a positive effect on the awareness and conscience of the people of the world. I hope they remain to be anti-corporate and stay away from anti-capitalist. Capitalism is something we can live with, but not corporate power and personhood, this is something to reconsider. The monetary system as it stands is corrosive and the Federal Reserve has long, outlived its usefulness.Your idea for an interactive government is ideal. However, it won't work with dishonest people and unless we are on different planets, our governments are dishonest. In fact, they have a solution for your idea...it goes by the acronym SOPAI

        • Arie Johannes de Vries

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          Jan 16 2012: i understand and respect everything you said, but what is an acronym SOPAI?
          and you say dishonest people, where did all the honest people? do i miss something?
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    Heather White 10+

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    Jan 14 2012: The interesting word in your debate question is "seems" to fail. The "Occupy" protests haven't presented answers, which could be construed as a failure. However, the fact that so many people from all over the developed world have joined in the action, or supported it, or followed it with interest through the media, makes it a winner. It is only when people stop and ask "There must be a better way" ...to trade, live, work, communicate etc, that people start thinking in new ways and new possibilities emerge. The genie is out of the bottle! It will take some time, but probably not as long as expected. I have great faith that the "connected" generation will bring about significant and positive change.
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    Megan DaGata

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    Jan 12 2012: I am not going to say the movement is failing, but I am going to say they lack definition. Terms of the movement were voted on, but as they are fighting leadership they don't want to elect to have a band of leaders that can interact directly with people in power. It is hard to sit at a table with the masses and discuss the issues. As with any movement there are people who have a good point of view and people who have a militant point of view. Generally (in my experience anyway) the leaders of the individual Occupy camps want to hear themselves speak and argue points amongst themselves. These leaders are not working together and nothing is getting done. Which is sad really. There is such potential and such a passion amongst these leaders, but they get lost in themselves and never realize that they could provide effective change.

    Occupiers are scared that if they elect a board to speak as their voice the board will use the power gained and not change the issues voted on, but will push their own agendas and issues. Much like Congress - we elect these people to be a voice for their district, but as soon as they are voted in they push their own agendas.

    However without defined leaders there is no chance of insighting the changes the populations would like.

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      Megan DaGata

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      Jan 12 2012: I've done some research on this and read the bill. There is some arguement as to the details of the bill because as originally written the government would have the absolute ability to arrest and detain anyone they would like. For how long? Indefinitely... I have read that in the 11th hour the bill was revised to mean just the detainees at Guantanimo bay. Everything I read in the bill and the rider was all in relation to Guantanimo.

      But this bill had to pass as it is the budget for our defense department. We can veto and send it back and ask for revisions all day, but at some point it would have to pass to continue to pay the employees of the dept. of defense.

      The bill that we should have been fighting is the Patriot Act which was quietly renewed in February. That is the bill that gave the US government imminent domain over our privacy. I have friends that live in international locations who absolutely refuse to visit because they may fall prey to the Patriot Act. Not just that...if the government determines that you are a "problem" for the state you can be arrested and held indefinitely. They would need evidence to support this, but it wouldn't be the first time the government has planted information.

      Many people in the states are worried about Martial Law because of the development of "FEMA Camps" in various locations around the country and the active recruitment of military personnel for domestic deployments. While I have only read about this there is so much information out there that I wonder about the validity of it all. This is a huge worry for people in the occupy movement. Who is to say that if leaders are elected information won't be revealed about them that would lead others to believe they are treasonous. Treason is the only illegal act that is punishable by death according to our US Constitution.

      Fear is the problem, the government is putting people in a state of fear. Whether its fear of taking a stand or fear of having a differing opinion.

  • Jonathan Gronli

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    Jan 12 2012: It's not failing and in some cases a lot of the things that you brought up as questions are actually part of the reason that they haven't been crushed. "Did this movement fail because they had no leader?" No and if anything that's probably its strength. I mean one of the best ways to destroy a movement is to go for the leaders. You know, the whole "cut off the head and the rest will die" mentality. Without a defined leader and operating pretty much off of consensus, the leader of the movement is the movement itself. "Because of the kinda messy website?" OK. Yes, that can be a problem if specific Occupy groups have a website. I mean a clearly grouped digital message and presence is a great thing to have for credibility. "Because the message wasn't clear enough?" Ultimately, we ended up seeing a large group of people saying the same thing in different ways. The overall message is simply that people want a chance at not getting screwed over in some way due to corporate investments in politics. "They had no plan for improvement?" Don't they? "Is it that the working class is mostly too busy to pay any attention?" No. That's not really the case either. If that had been the case, unions would not have gotten involved in the movement as well. I will probably have another post that goes in depth, but I have a long day that I have to get rested up for.

  • Rhona Pavis 50+

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    Jan 11 2012: The occupy movement is succeeding.

  • James Kindler 20+

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    Jan 10 2012: I am part of the Pitssburgh Occupy Movement and we are still camping and have not gone down at all. Bank of New York Mellon is taking us to court today to try and get us off there land. We have not failed but awakened many people to the obvious corruptions in our government and corporations. We have made people aware that the government represents the corporations and not the people. We have 14,000 supporters in the city and are backed by many organizations including the fraternal order of police. We are extremely peaceful and excercising our rights, it's just to bad the masses didn't join us and the media ignored us unless they had something negative to say. We need to all come together as a country to bring about change, not just some of us. We will continue whether or not we are evicted, you can't evict an idea whos time has come, we just need the rest of you to join us. Corporations buy and sell our politicians like pawns and you all just look away while our freedom is stripped. Look up senate bill 1867 that was just passed into law and I think you will get the picture.

    • Arie Johannes de Vries

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      Jan 10 2012: thanks for your comment, in the Netherlands is the movement looking to becomming smaller and smaller.
      that's why i had the opinion it would fall appart and dissapair.
      my other question about the movement is, why don't you have a leader? a leader who can speak the correct messenge to the media, to prevent negative publicity. at this moment are the media looking for some people with different reasons for being in the movement, what all the consequences.

      i've got myself an idea about a tool what possible could really move the movement.

      http://www.ted.com/conversations/8438/an_interactive_government_webs_1.html

      if you want to join i would really appriciate your opinion in special. it's about Real democracy wich is made possible by the income of the internet. maybe will the massas move by asking for their ideas, or by asking to vote on political ideas?

      • James Kindler 20+

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        Jan 10 2012: If the movement is shrinking join it and make it grow.

        • Arie Johannes de Vries

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          Jan 11 2012: maybe i will in the future, but for so far, the movement has a great goal. to change the system we live in today. i see the occupy movement spreading a messenge, just like priests spreading the messenge from god. but spreading this messenge won't change the system for so far. i miss the tools or a plan to change this system we live in.

          if you disagree, than i hope to hear from you soon

    • Stephen Lewis

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      Jan 12 2012: I just copy/pasted my comment from below. Sorry but I wanted to see what you thought of my critique of the movement. Please realize that we have very similar goals and my intention is not to struggle against someone on the same team.

      no focus in equals no solution out

      I observed for 3 hrs. in Santa Rosa a bitch session about the problems we already know exist and providing solutions on which the system is already working.

      What the Occupy movement represents for us all to see is that there is a growing amount of tension.

      1 Because it is not focused it cannot offer tangible solutions. Therefore, the Occupy movement has nothing to offer.

      2 The movement implies that the hard working people, in City Halls everywhere, are somehow not members of their local communities. It was an US (occupy-the good citizens) against THEM (the evil people inside "the building") attitude. It's pretty safe to say that even the Governor lives inside his or her respective states and I'll say almost all of City Hall's employees do as well. Vilifying City Hall is not conducive to a positive outcome.

      3 Everyone brought there own particular issue and they were quite persuasive but no one handed me a well thought out solution or plan.

      The lesson here is, if you're going to City Hall bring 2 or 3 possible solutions for your own concerns and address the system in an orderly fashion. So if you want to keep the Occupy movement alive in your local community it starts with you. When you make a positive change for the greater good you can attribute this to the Occupy movement for the inspiration it gave you. The Occupy movement cannot direct this change from above.
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    Mark Kurtz 20+

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    Jan 10 2012: Who said they failed? Maybe they forced us all to think and maybe we will react differently to Wall Street and other "controllers". Maybe they did a lot of unseen good.

  • Edward Webber

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    Jan 10 2012: I don't recall hearing any solutions presented. I did not attend any (not exactly local for me) rallies, but read plenty of articles on it. None of them mentioned any solutions. In fact, I don't ever recall reading about any focused reason as to what they were hoping to accomplish by "occupying" anything.

    I feel it really had a chance to made a difference, but nothing ever seemed to rise to the top message-wise. I agree with the reasons it began, as I'm a taxpayer who lives in the US, but unless you have something specific you want done, you are really just camping out. It pains me to say that, as some people really gave a lot of effort, time and money for it, but it simply never came together as a movement *towards* anything, just a movement.

    I hope what they did accomplish was to motivate people into realizing we have the right to protest in this country, too, and we need to exercise that right on a way more regular basis than every 30 years or so. This country has left the control of the people nearly a century ago, now. At some point the scales must be tipped back in our favor, seeing as we are this country.

  • Stephen Lewis

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    Jan 10 2012: no focus in equals no solution out

    I observed for 3 hrs. in Santa Rosa a bitch session about the problems we already know exist and providing solutions on which the system is already working.

    What the Occupy movement represents for us all to see is that there is a growing amount of tension.

    1 Because it is not focused it cannot offer tangible solutions. Therefore, the Occupy movement has nothing to offer.

    2 The movement implies that the hard working people, in City Halls everywhere, are somehow not members of their local communities. It was an US (occupy-the good citizens) against THEM (the evil people inside "the building") attitude. It's pretty safe to say that even the Governor lives inside his or her respective states and I'll say almost all of City Hall's employees do as well. Vilifying City Hall is not conducive to a positive outcome.

    3 Everyone brought there own particular issue and they were quite persuasive but no one handed me a well thought out solution or plan.

    The lesson here is, if you're going to City Hall bring 2 or 3 possible solutions for your own concerns and address the system in an orderly fashion. So if you want to keep the Occupy movement alive in your local community it starts with you. When you make a positive change for the greater good you can attribute this to the Occupy movement for the inspiration it gave you. The Occupy movement cannot direct this change from above.
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