- Michael Roland
- London
- United Kingdom
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Is neural activity truly the basis for thoughts, feelings, and perceptions?
"Neural activity is the physical basis, or so neuroscientists think, for thoughts, feelings, and perceptions."
In this qstatement, is Dr Seung implying that this is up for debate?
Topics:
artificial intelligence consciousness mind
Mark Hurych
A very interesting question and at first glance (at your Chinese medicine background) an equally interesting perspective on the question of consciousness and thought and sense and mind and "wisdom."
This is my first impulse at reacting to the question, but I would say immediately that both a "yes" and a "no" have to be acceptable in some sense. Just as we are more than a collection of cells (even trillions), our awareness is more than the firing patterns of neurons.
Neural activity is certainly an important field of study and this field should yield many answers to problems in medicine and well-being. However, to say that the basis of thoughts feelings and perceptions is completely contained in our neurons is ludicrous. Perseity is a dangerous trap in this question. (That is, nothing exists in-and-of-itself, or "per se.")
Ta da.
See you soon after more reflection and study...
Mark
daniel hehir 20+
Alex Harris
Christophe Cop 500+
Of course your neural activity depends on the input you get (through your senses and food)
Tim Petersen
Fletcher Kauffman
The trap we fall into (maybe this is the age we are in, or this is a Western problem) is to conflate a useful view or model of something with the idea that that view or model represents how it ~really~ is. To the child with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. To the neuroscientist, the brain looks like a neuroscience-based machine.
So to answer the question you've asked directly: I choose not to champion that view in most cases, as that gives very little room for humanity. Although the brain as described in neuroscience is a learning and adaptable machine (and a wondrous one), it's still beholden to ideas of brain electrochemistry.
If I were having some kind of issue with my brain, however, I'd certainly consult with someone who had tremendous facility with the neuroscience view.
William Palaia
Roberto Garcia
Sodi Suri
Neural activity is like microchip/ CPU, the human brain wiring& chemicals for processing information (learning, analysing, imagining, perceiving etc)
From when you are born, you learn from your surroundings/ circumstances (parents, siblings, friends, school, books, tv, surroundings etc). Based on what the norm is in your upbringing (thieving, working hard, life of luxury, religion , culture etc) your sense of self is formed . Your brains wiring starts to become "hard wired" biased towards curtain deep/ inert feelings, which become your personal filters. These filters will influence your thoughts and perceptions towards others.
If your are born from a hard working, honest family, with a happy (& tough times) up bringing then you are likely to see the world in a balanced way. If your upbringing was biased towards hardship or extreme luxury, then your feelings/ thoughts and perceptions will be filtered and biased in an imbalanced view point...
In summary in my laymans / non scientific opinion, neural activity is brains capability to process information/ learn and evolve. It is your learnings from your surroundings that form your inner thoughts, feelings and perceptions.
João Coucelo 10+
Through out these last days there were made very interesting points here. Though no thumbs up or replies surely there are people like me that just read your comments.
Unfortunately no time to write my own...rotations...
Wish you all a fine day/night...
Thomas Brucia
Thomas Brucia
Thomas Brucia
Zanker Herbert
daniel hehir 20+
Your analogy of the book was an excellent example! Chapter, paragraphs, words, letters... and I guess you can even continue endlessly down to the amount of pixels in each individual letter on the page. But in the final end, the letters and symbols are meaningless.... if the idea is not conveyed. The words and letters mean no more than small black squiggly lines. They really are nothing more. But when the logical mind of the person reading the words that are represented by those funny little squiggly lines is engaged "then" meaning arises... of course the "meaning" is all in your head...
natasha nikulina 50+
"There's no room left in science for a non-corporeal soul ..."
May I take the liberty to remind you that there is no scientific theory that can explain /describe how particles get their masses? What is matter we are made of ?
The whole Pyramid of 'matter' from its bottom down to the top rests on the ghost-like particle, heavily chased, but not yet caught: Higgs Boson, which has been called 'God' particle for a good reason, because presumably it 'gives' particles their masses, hence create matter.
So, i can't agree with you that there is no room left. Modern physics faces the limits of the scientific method, it raises questions it cannot answer. This is not a failure of science, just a recognition that measurement is not the only source of meaning.
Zanker Herbert
Science raises questions it can't yet answer for a good reason - to answer them. The current physical theory (that includes the Higgs' Boson) makes perfect sense, and is likely correct, regardless of our having seen the thing yet. And the only reason it's called the "God particle" is media hype. Its original (provisional) designation was "that god-damn particle", but the publishers wouldn't go with that for some reason.
Also, regardless of whether we know precisely why there's mass, we have a pretty good idea of how neurons work, and the human brain is nothing but a hundred billion neurons working. And a human person is nothing but the brain, sustained by the rest of the body. Even if everything we think we know about quantum physics is wrong, that's still the case.
natasha nikulina 50+
I don't claim for truth :)
Of course scientists will get new data and hopefully figure out what is going on there. Don't get me wrong, I am not against science, on the contrary, I highly value its achievements ! But maybe it is alien to your mindset, but "center is everywhere",and be certain that you know how 'neurons work' is a bit premature when you don't know what is the stuff where they operate in and what they are made of . My point is, nothing is certain, and I think, will never be, so all questions are always open and there is always room for 'soul'.
And could you elaborate on this "Its original (provisional) designation was "that god-damn particle"
Any link ? I am interested :)
Thank you !
daniel hehir 20+
Here is an interesting video about an autistic child who tells about the struggle with her body. Being trapped. A very interesting video that perhaps can tell us something about the true self trying to get through the physical body. It is not the first and only time this has happened. There is a book called "Miracles to believe in" by Barry Kaufman that tells the same story of his own child plus several others that were lead through serious autism to be fully functional.
If we can adapt an understanding of the true nature of the human being, we can also learn to understand such phenomena as what it will say to be autistic. The kernel of the human being is the "I" or ego that wants to get into the physical body and through it to gain knowledge and experience of the world around us and within our own soul life. The groundwork that they neural scientist are now laying is only the beginning of what help we can give these children.
But my main point is again, we have to realize that there is a spiritual element in or being that is trying to incarnate into and to flow through the physical body.
To presume that the neural activity "itself" is the initiator of human behavior is like the example that Adriaan gave about the TV set. Science today is saying to us.... look we see activity coming from the neural fabric of the brain here and here... there and there.... and of course they do! But the impulses coming from the conscious ego or "I" is the true impulse giver. Not the neural activity that starts the hand in motion ...no! The individual ego... the "I" that starts the neural activity first, then the hand moves..... It simply must be this way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shAHJryco_g
natasha nikulina 50+
Thank you for the link, it pushed me to thinking the way I've never thought before.It's like to watch the familiar movie backwards from the end to the beginning...
We try to 'map' the intuitive image through highly ordered, time-organised mind via language and as for me I am usually disappointed with the result for it's clumsy, pathetic or in the best case scenario a kind of chalk outline of a beautiful colourful, multi facets picture I had a glimpse of. But this autistic child is striving to order her 'intuitive ocean' to gain the bliss of control over her body... Her challenge humbles me a lot, now I appreciate the bliss of the balance ! It's a gift ! Body is sacred and mind is a beautifully made thing that allows the spirit inhabit it in the most harmonious way ! " We are not a body with spirit we are spirit that inhabits our body." And spirit must feel comfortable in it :)
Thank you !
Adriaan Braam 20+
Perfect Natasha!!
BTW this 'distance' also makes it easier to refrain calling the actions of a disabled person 'stupid' or worse.
----------------------added
Daniel, just saw the video and eventually ended up here http://www.nids.net/?page_id=2
Did you ever hear about how MS was maybe misdiagnosed/treated? That seems to also be possible with autism.. please have a look
Monte Delion
18 hours ago: Hi, Monte !
"mystical" (man I hate that word!) I don't ! :) For me it carries no stigma ! What is the main massage of quantum mechanics ? - ' Interconnectedness ' ! Isn't it precisely what mysticism as a teaching is about alongside with all sacred teachings? It helps to balance egoism and altruism: " What goes around comes around" ,"Dethrone yourself from your world, put another there and you'll evolve " Don't do to others..."We all know that, maybe it's time to live it... Am I preaching ? Sorry, I didn't mean to :)
...I don't hate the word actually, I hate that with it comes such a disdain that those that claim objectivity and scientific rationale won't even look toward any set of data that their esteemed colleagues might turn their nose up at. It's a shame because there exists methodologies that elaborate extensively upon the concepts being addressed in this thread and even propose experiments one can implement toward the observation of said concepts. We are using modern wordage for millenia-old concepts and much of what's being expounded upon and revealed in exotic and quantum physics and even advanced psychology and neurology is old news in the oft-mocked spiritual circles. The Penroses, and Hawkings of today once walked the earth and were called sages and they are telling us today the same things they told us long ago. Ask the practitioner, the pursuant of enlightenment, and they will express hopeful amusement and patience at what looks like the sleepy start of some catch-upage on the part of modern science. Case in point, check out this TED video on connectomes http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/sebastian_seung.html (specifically the 4min 32sec mark ) -and this is but the tip of the iceberg of scientific/spiritual corresponding!
natasha nikulina 50+
You are right , this '4min 32sec ' part is mind blowing ! I was amazed with beauty and complexity of 'I am " :)
I like the way how science changes its attitude towards 'empty' space, it seems to be in the focus of attention all over the genre. For how many years we've known that the atoms which make up solid matter are over 99.99 per cent empty space ? About 80 years, I guess, but somehow science has absorbed this without letting it alter its attitude. But time has come and 'empty' space is viewed as full and fertile and the womb of All. Science and sacred teachings seem to be on the way to reconciliation ! New age is called the age of reason , maybe it's true ? :)
Thank you very much for attracting my attention to this piece, I'll watch it once/twice... more !
daniel hehir 20+
Glad to hear you can still take a little poke ;-) I just made a few comments on this most interesting discussion. it reminds me of the good old days of ... consciousness, merely a product of the physical brain discussion.
If neural activity is actually the basis .. then how do you explain what they call mirror neurons.
Got to get to bed now, catch you again tomorrow
Tim Colgan 50+
This concept of mirror neurons is a great example of the power of resonance. A radio receiver has within it a narrow band filter highly tuned to detect a carrier frequency. Likewise the brain is a giant filter. Programmed through evolution and life experience (both nature and nurture) to respond to outside stimuli. Seems only natural that observing another being having an experience would set it into oscillation.
That one was easy Daniel. But regardless of whether we are capable of coming up with a rational explanation for phenomena, the invention of aether, spirits or elan vital is generally counterproductive in our search for the truth.
George Kong 30+
How do these structures come to be? They form because there is association between our own body parts, the similarity of the body parts of others, the way our bodies feel and the representation we have of our own bodies - and the efficacy of the link between the similarity of the body parts of others and the way we feel about our own body parts.
It is something that is effective and reinforced by our environment (specifically as it relates to empathy and mimicry). As the neural structures are traversed frequently, specific links between external body movement representations and our internal body feeling are created and strengthened...
Resulting in the structures that we call 'mirror neurons'.
daniel hehir 20+
It strikes me as strange that you can possibly be apposed to such a self evident phenomena as consciousness.
If I understand your comment correctly that is. Without a doubt you have a point that "we" meaning I suppose traditional science ... the A4 type has hardly begun to understand it. ...."Demonstrable influence",well Tim, you've kind of painted yourself into a corner on that one... unless you perhaps have another suggestion as to what it is that's really at the core of our being. We think, we are aware of pleasure and pain, colors, smells, and thousands upon thousands of impressions go into our ...... what .... what's the word.... if it not be consciousness.
But science is getting closer and closer every day. Have you heard the TED lecture on "connectomes" ? It's worth seeing if you haven't seen it. As you will see by the video that the "empty space" so to say ... the space in between all the neurons ... that are so incredibly small that it's almost like wandering into the universe... only it's turned inside out..... it's on the inside of our heads !! Take a close listen to what he says ... some very special words that come in towards the last few minutes of the lecture. The words are "know thyself" .. and what is "thyself"....? ....Tim.....?
Tim Colgan 50+
Well I suppose you could say that this is the basic cartesian fallacy of the duality principle of mind vs. body when in truth the universe is one and any bifurcation of the whole into parts is merely an oversimplification of reality. But the model seems to work a lot better then a theory based on spirits and boogiemen.
daniel hehir 20+
Tim Colgan 50+
William Hardie
Mary Caldwell
daniel hehir 20+
Agree, and agree ... yes ... yes ... two way street of course... But my question is this. Are there no motor nerves and no receptor nerves?..... Is there is only one sense apparatus that is the transmitter of sense impressions. consciousness is not "only" in the brain?..did you say that or are those my words. Can there be consciousness in the fingers of a violinist? Is science now saying that neural activity seems to be flowing in all directions and simultaneously throughout the body? In the very same moment.
And not only "within" our own body .. but in "other" bodies as well...?? Excuse me if I seem to be carrying this too far... but I do have a point here... Ever heard of mirror neurons? If not, go and read a little bit about it. Neural activity in another person ... such as a pinched finger of pain or the sweetness of a candy in pleasure, .. mirror neurons give me the impression of what you are experiencing. At least to a small degree.
This is science. Not just my own wild theory.
Miles Price
This can best be seen by the question of what is reality and what is space? Is it a matter of illusion? Yes Can we bend the world around us if we believe we can? Yes (we do make our own reality after all).
But...universe as hologram is the most important piece of this answer, the world as most QED and string physicists believe and some have mathematical certainty (with lab findings from the LHC) that the world as we see it is a mirage and a mental projection of a 2D data center with the source being unknown. Our brains for example really are prediction engines with stimuli which neuroplasticity can move to other functions of the brain
What we see through our eyes are only one thing, we see 100% video data BUT when it is actually computed in the brain, it becomes probabilistic....the brain only responds to 10%-17% approximations of video data (and thus only that amount of data is perceived) -- even when cut the signal using optics and send the video data, the data is still only minutely added into perception.
Overall: perception, feelings and memories are facets of quantum entanglement at a high, high level and the aspect of perception may be a very tiny piece of what the world, universe and everything ACTUALLY looks like or is.
Read more from MIT studies on the ease to manipulate morality and the ease to make people hear voices as well as the ease to set energies to make people think what is programmed and also programmable matter is interesting. Catoms/claytronics and quantum, optical, DNA and other new forms of computing will give us the data, THEN we can augment abilities
Frans Kellner 100+
natasha nikulina 50+
Thanks for a 'hot' metaphor ! I agree, it's something like this :)
Frans Kellner 100+
If we draw the line further the electronic web will become one superbrain of the human species. Maybe then we all share the same mind, who knows?
natasha nikulina 50+
daniel hehir 20+
Will it ... in the end.....finally boil down to "I am" the "I am"
natasha nikulina 50+
If you can answer the old age question " Who am I ?" it means you've grasped everything !
At least I truly believe so, but don't know how it is humanly possible :)
Colleen Steen 500+
I think/feel it is possible to say and believe I know who I am in this moment, and as I am continually open to explore who and what "I am", I discover that my knowledge of my "self" and others is constantly changing:>)
Edit:
Dear Helen,
I cannot connect a response to your comment below within a reasonable distance, so I'll do it here. Communications "get scattered" because that is how the reply system works...when we're responding on the 3rd level, there is no place else to go!
I don't believe neurons "act on their own" either. I believe neurons are made of material substances, just like the rest of the body? In my perception, the energy that powers the rest of the body, powers the neurons as well. When the energy that powers the body leaves at the time of death, the neurons die, the same as the rest of the material body.
Helen Hupe 30+
Adriaan Braam 20+
Could it be that we (our bodies) are 'what we (decide to) eat' but that our spirit is 'what we (decide to) love'?
Seems to me that we are in this world for a reason. which means we must have some control over the outcome. To me that means we are the ones that have control over our mind (so we can change it), not the neurons.
Colleen Steen 500+
natasha nikulina 50+
Of course you are right, but the very act of dividing "I am" into 'body' and 'soul', 'matter' and 'spirit' prevents us from understanding how it all works .
There must be the realm where they are one. My point is, that the matter in its deep root level is 'spirit'... Bizarre idea, but here I try to give my intuition a voice :)
Thank you !
daniel hehir 20+
Just wanted to say one last word before I'm off to bed.
Thanks for the message Adriaan, have to agree with you there.
I see the human being as a being of a threefold nature. Body, soul, and spirit... or as you might also rather consider ... thinking, feeling and willing. Three separate yet distinct parts each interpenetrating the other to different degrees. The thinking element having its seat or center in the head, the feeling having its center in the heart region and the will having its center in the limb system ...
Colleen Steen 500+
Have you answered your own question with your comment above?
You say..."the very act of dividing...prevents us from understanding how it all works".
You have said, in your other comments that "getting to understand the change is in a way shaping fixing it, isolating it from the flow". You have also suggested that you feel "trapped"? Is "trapped" a form of isolation?
I believe there is a "realm where they are one", and we simply need to percieve that as a possibility. It seems like it may be difficult to percieve everything as one and connected, if we are also percieving the process as having "isolated" functions? The "realm where they are one", may be our perception?
Helen Hupe 30+
Adriaan Braam 20+
As seems clear by what has been said here, our mind is not controlled by neurons which only conduct!
You seem to be open minded enough to try to elevate your mind out of the physical trap it is in. We are no more a part of the car we are driving than we are the neurons. Try if you can and see your mind as a separate, distinct level of existence above the physical brain level. We certainly need our television to see the news, but the news is not generated by the television. The TV only conducts, it is the receiver.
Our brain is nothing more. On the one side we certainly need our brain and all its components and chemicals to connect and control our body and so to communicate with this physical world.
But on the other side, it receives and conducts all the input from our mind, which is in the spiritual world. It is from there that thoughts pop into our mind, it is there we go when we have a NDE. It is there where we love, feel and reason. And also where those are who have gone before us and where, one day, we'll meet them again.
It is there where our character is and is shaped by us. Our character is not a chemical composition or neuron connections.
I sincerely hope that one day you'll 'hear' the words 'Let there be light' and think Aha!
Colleen Steen 500+
I know you have presented this concept before, and it apparently is your truth. However, I don't agree that the "mind is a separate, distinct level of existence above the physical brain level" unless you have a definition for "mind" that is different than the usual?
"Mind...
the element or complex of elements in an individual that feels, perceives, thinks, wills, and esp. reasons; the conscious mental events and capabilities in an organism; the organized conscious and unconscious adaptive mental activity of an organism; the normal or healthy condition of the mental faculties; intellectual ability...etc."
Perhaps those functions happen for you Adriaan, in a "seperate distinct level of existence above the physical brain level", but I think/feel that for most humans, those functions are part of being human, and happen within the "organism" which is the human body/mind. It is, as you say Adriaan..."we certainly need our brain and all its components and chemicals to connect and control our body and so to communicate with this physical world".
It serves no useful purpose, in my perception, to seperate the processes. My "mind" is right here with me in the body, on this earth, it is not "on the other side":>) My character IS part of the chemical composition and neuron connections because everything is connected...in my humble perception:>) That is one very important thing I learned with the NDE/OBE.
Adriaan Braam 20+
"It serves no useful purpose, in my perception, to separate the processes. My "mind" is right here with me in the body, on this earth, it is not "on the other side""
So you answer to the topical question "Is neural activity truly the basis for thoughts, feelings, and perceptions?" is Yes
I separate the processes as to 'location' because that is very much part of why we are here. One day we are going to leave this physical world. Billions have before us. I see this world as the physical womb of our spiritual existence.
Just as we are in the womb of our mother to make a body for this world, we are in this world to make a spiritual body (character if you will) which determines our 'place' to eternity.
This works, (because God is Love) whether one dies a few days old or a hundred years old.
What do you think Colleen, was your NDE a dream state within your brain or an actual experience outside of it?
Colleen Steen 500+
Please do not answer for me, or try to put words in my mouth...I've asked you this before. My statements are clear, and if they are not clear to you, I'm glad to clarify.
I respect your beliefs Adriaan, as your beliefs. I have expressed my thoughts, feelings, ideas, opinions and beliefs regarding the NDE/OBE on many TED sites when that was the topic. It is not the topic here, and I do not wish to pursue it here unless the facilitator wants to bring it into the discussion. The topic question is....."Is neural activity truly the basis for thoughts, feelings, and perceptions?" I have shared my perceptions regarding the topic.
daniel hehir 20+
I've been trying to keep up on the thread here best I can. Lots of interesting and exciting comments here.
What Natasha says about being trapped within the body is very interesting. There is a video out there somewhere on the vast eithernet ... believe it was you tube I saw it a while back. Where a young girl born severely handicapped without language of any sort. Later on in life as a teen she was helped through the language barrier with a computer that helped her to communicate. She was banging her head often. As her language developed in time, her communicating faculties also developed to the point of which she could describe how it felt for her to be so handicapped. She then told of how she was always trying to "get into my body" Those are her exact words...
Adriaan Braam 20+
"..but the very act of dividing "I am" into 'body' and 'soul', 'matter' and 'spirit' prevents us from understanding how it all works .
There must be the realm where they are one. My point is, that the matter in its deep root level is 'spirit'... Bizarre idea, but here I try to give my intuition a voice :)"
This physical world is the only 'place' where these two realities are together AS one. They are as different as a shovel and its use (or application) or a gift and the thought 'behind' it. They are two completely different realms or realities. In fact one gives life (and reason) to the other, spirit is the cause and matter is the effect.
When we see a beautiful painting we likely don't know who painted it and why. Unless we are given that info from the painter, we're in the dark. As all creations, this was first in the mind of the painter. In that stage it is immaterial, nothing just an idea.
This concept can be applied to this universe. That is where Revelation comes in....
---------- Edit
What I forgot to mention is that the most rewarding and uplifting aspect of this approach (to see the two realms as different) is that those that die, it is 'only' their body that dies. Not they themselves. It makes it possible to meet again in that very different, spiritual realm.
natasha nikulina 50+
There is no disagreement between us, simply slight difference in image :) You didn't forget to mention :
"... that the most rewarding and uplifting aspect of this approach (to see the two realms as different) is that those that die, it is 'only' their body that dies. Not they themselves. It makes it possible to meet again in that very different, spiritual realm."
Maybe you are more comfortable with two dimensional image and I prefer to see it three dimensionally. I don't see the line which divide reality into two realms: 'spiritual' and 'physical', but as a spiral, like the basic structure of the gene: the double helical format of DNA. There is no problem with 'eternal' life here, it gives the impression of everlasting always changing stillness, dynamic world within a world..OK,.I guess non of these pictures is true though, it's the realm of our imagination, which creates perception and we are free to choose.
Thanks for your concern Andriaan, but I am not SO trapped:) I've got the impression that we don't quite understand each other. What I am trying to do is to use both : rational mind and intuitive mind, actually they both reside in my brain " between two ears" :) So I don't need to go anywhere to be outside the box .We can't even in theory separate the mind that sees from the thing that is seen. What is mind if it has the awesome power to create the world ? In even attempting to answer this question in a sensible way I am at once tired down by the limitation of language. (that's what I meant saying "I feel trapped" :)
Anyway, thank you for sharing and your kind concern !
daniel hehir 20+
I think this is something that develops within us..... over many lifetimes.
We are all on the path towards being "Christ-like" We are all moving forward at our own speed.
It was the Christ that said those words "I am the I am" Now put that together with what consciousness is... yours.... mine ... everyone's.. We are all individuals yet we share a reality that is both "within" our being and "without" ... or better said "outside of" our being. When we sleep, we are outside of our wakeful being, we are disengaged from the flow of time. We, upon waking, our eyes open, we sit up in our bed and we are again "incarnated" Our "I" has been to another place, another place in time..? ....maybe.... Another place spacially...?.. well maybe that too.
But to feel "trapped" as you say is not such a surprise as we are, in a certain way all trapped her... but only for the time being...Colleen can tell you an incredible story of how it is to be truly free from the bounds of the physical world.. she has had a NDE .... so don't let anyone tell you that the physical is all there is, that we are no more than a product of our neural activity or our connectomes . The deeper truth is that we are much much more. We are spiritual beings walking around in these forms of flesh and blood and bone. ... And your thinking is your tool on the stage of your consciousness. It will lead you through the darkness towards the light.... as Bob Dylan sang "were gonna get all the way from here to there, even if we've gotta walk a million miles by candle light".
natasha nikulina 50+
This conversation was quite slow until your "I am " comment :)
Generally, we understand/ hear/see something when we are tuned to it. When i saw your comment I was properly tuned ,being in "Who am I " state of mind and asked you whether it was humanly possible to grasp "I am" complexity. Now I've got the answer: Yes,"...being Christ-like" I came up with it too and it's quite recent and only dimly visible to me, but it highlights a lot already !
We shall not cease from exploration
and the end of all our exploring
will be to arive where we started
and know the place for the first time.
T.S.Eliot
Thank you for being here !
natasha nikulina 50+
Generally i agree with you ... but... 'moment' is everlasting and encompasses all changes, getting to understand the change is in a way shaping fixing it, isolating it from the flow, it makes it real, but not quite true. It's how we think about ourselves, but we are much bigger than that. And how I've understood Daniel's "I am " and what the topic of the conversation suggests it is about that ' bigger', deeper, quintessentially human spiritual/physical part. How does all this works? ! That's what i think totally incomprehensible for human mind, for it is trapped in Time. Of course I could be wrong here :)
Colleen Steen 500+
natasha nikulina 50+
You said :
"I don't perceive this process as "isolating" it from the flow, but rather becoming part of the flow. Just as a river, for a time, may be separated from the main body of water, and eventually, flows into it ? "
It's a beautiful description of what we can experience and true to me too. I can experience it, ,but only momentarily, usually i am in a 'normal' self conscious state or as you put it in a "for a time separated from the main body of water " state and try to figure out how it all works ... and can't. Can you answer this question:
"Is neural activity truly the basis for thoughts, feelings, and perceptions?"
I guess you feel as well as I do almost certainty that the answer is 'NO', but it is not enough. Can you shape in words how it works ? All this complexity boils down to the 'simple' question "Who am I" And we can't give any plausible explanation for this phenomenon either, because we shape our thoughts in words, and language by its nature is Time, for it is based on sequence, on 'before-now-after' concept, and here we are trapped because 'I am' is timeless and only can be understood from this realm, but our mind doesn't work in this realm! Or...does it ? I am highly open to suggestions! :)
Thank you !
daniel hehir 20+
Colleen Steen 500+
Please remember that I am a simple person...not a scientist:>)
With that in mind, I do not believe that neurons are the "basis" for thoughts, feelings, and perceptions. I believe the "neural activity" however, is very much part of the process.
If we look at the definition of neuron...
"neu·ron
Any of the impulse-conducting cells that constitute the brain, spinal column, and nerves, consisting of a nucleated cell body with one or more dendrites and a single axon. Also called nerve cell".
I believe neurons to be the conductor,conduits.channels, or carriers, if you will, for the energies that contribute to thoughts, feelings and perceptions. As I said in the pervious comment, I percieve everything to be connected and flowing, so it is all part of the process. In my humble perception, the energy flows through the neurons, and I do not seperate and/or label which "part" does what. It is only as "complex" as we want to make it Natasha.
Think about electricity, for example. The electricity alone is not intelligent, correct? However, it facilitates a connection to the internet, where there is an abundance of information...correct? I percieve neurons, and/or neural activity in a similar way. The neurons/nerve cells in our body/mind carry and organize the information. I percieve our mind/body connections to be very much like a computer.
You have said a couple times now..."we are trapped", and I don't understand why you feel "trapped". You also say "our mind doesn't work in this realm". Mine does, so I don't understand that statement either. It feels like you are trying to seperate the "parts" and functions, and I don't understand why you want to do that.
natasha nikulina 50+
Thanks for the response! Again, generally i agree with what you've said in all your comments bellow and above ! And we are on the same page here, but... but :)
You said:
"Think about electricity, for example. The electricity alone is not intelligent, correct? "
Actually nobody knows what electricity is, ( the experts included), the same way we don't know what consciousness is.
Don't you think that it is unidentifiable through mind; hence language? We can give our understanding through image, which can be reinforced with another image or metaphor.
And it's OK with me, but curious mind keeps asking questions... To cut the story short, I am one/many who wants to know what the electricity/consciousness is :)
What I came up with, it's quite recent, that our consciousness should evolve to another state, from self consciousness to 'Christ' consciousness to grasp the mystery of ' I am '
Maybe you are already somewhere there ? :)
Colleen Steen 500+
But.....but......LOL:>)
Ok...perhaps my use of electricity was not a good example. I was simply trying to answer your question in a way that I am capable of......I think! If you believe electricity has an intelligent componant, so be it:>)
I believe that consciousness is energy, and the energy carries information, which also moves through the neurons, and is part of the process that creates neural activity. We can experience consciousness, information and neural activity on many different levels. Within the catagory of information and neural activity, we have language and language use, images, our perception of images, and metaphors.
I believe the electricity/consciousness is energy, and science recognizes that we have energy moving through the body and mind.....it's not really very complicated, nor is it much of a mystery anymore:>)
Again, I believe the body/mind is much like a computer, capable of programming, and capable of running different programs at the same time, or "disabling" certain programs while others are running. Our receptors (the senses and neurons) take in information by way of the energy, process and organize it.
If you believe that your "consciousness should evolve to another state", then it will evolve as you make different choices regarding what information you accept and how you use it. As I said, I believe there are many levels of consciousness, and yes, I experience several levels. "I am" does not have to be a "mystery" when we live mindfully aware in each and every moment:>)
BTW, It was suggested that you were not thinking outside the box. (Adriaan's statement..."Hi Natasha, I think you will remain feeling trapped as long as you cannot think outside the box (between your ears")
My perception of you Natasha, is that you are always thinking, feeling and exploring outside the box:>)
Walter Radtke
Don Traub
Kimberly Brenton
Marcus Reed
Those who've had near death experiences and came back, can report what they have seen and felt.
Unfortunatelly we still know very little of how the brain works, and what connection it does have with our subjective experience of life.
I am not sure but I think physicians say that our consciousness is more of a whole body thing it cannot be localised to the brain.