This conversation is closed.

The women's revolution is the last revolution that the world will ever need. Male/Female equality is essential to human happiness.

When men and women acknowledge and experience their equality, there will be happiness, health, peace and all other good things throughout the parts or totality of the world that does this. Then all females and males can relax and simply enjoy life as we were obviously meant to do. The current inequality experienced in nearly all societies today is the basis of the turmoil and suffering of humankind.

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    Dec 27 2011: The talk by Richard Wilkinson that is referred to puts Norway among the "top 3" for most measures of equality. Women (and men) in Norway are free to choose any education they desire, and subsequently any job they want. The government has tried to increase the ratio of women in many typically male dominated domains, such as mechanical engineering, computer sciences, armed forces and more, often through some form of light "affirmative action" measures. This has increased the female ratio significantly, but what we have seen in Norway during the last decade, is that given the freedom to choose, the majority of women have gravitated back to "typical" female jobs such as nursing, day-care, and other occupations involving interaction with people, empathy and caring. While most men typically choose more "engineering"-like professions involving machinery and manual labour.
    The reason stereotypes have become stereotypes, are because they have a center of truth to them.
    Equality is essential to a healthy society. Equality of choice, of freedom, of remuneration for equal work, of social status etc. But we should not strive towards a society of equality with regards to male/female ratios in specific occupations. We should not define how the end result should look. We should simply make sure the conditions are right, fair and equal, and let the result become as it will.
    Yin and Yang would look rubbish if they were both grey.
    It's possible to celebrate our differences and have equality at the same time.
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      Dec 27 2011: And I agree that there will be a natural distribution that will correlate largely to sex.

      What you DON'T do is say that "this sector is strictly for men" (or women) and bar people who have the right ability/capacity and the wrong genitalia from entering it.
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        Dec 29 2011: Sorry Gisela, I had to flag this 'though women and children are weak and ignorant, we have to protect them from all dangers and correct their follies and guide them along the correct path' and the rest of the toxic diatribe, hope you are not feeling 'out on a limb'.
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          Dec 29 2011: Don't apologize to me - I didn't write it, heh. I was only hoping that it would last long enough for SEP to see it.
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      Dec 28 2011: Hi Martin: Re this; This has increased the female ratio significantly, but what we have seen in Norway... the majority of women have gravitated back to "typical" female jobs such as nursing, day-care, and other occupations involving interaction with people, empathy and caring. While most men typically choose more "engineering"-like professions involving machinery and manual labour.
      The reason stereotypes have become stereotypes, are because they have a center of truth to them.'

      So long as a society values both sexes equally, rewards them equivalently, and treats them fairly in the judicial system. I do not see a problem with this. We can get into the reasons why, but what would be the point? I am happy to accept some of it is because of the genetic differences between men and women, if that is what you are suggesting. I think we all agree, men and women are different. That is a beautiful thing, if you ask me.

      I think you might be on thin ice with this though 'The reason stereotypes have become stereotypes, are because they have a center of truth to them.' I can think of dozens of stereotypes, which are simply part of the power groups mythology in order to justify keeping the underclass in its place. A few decades ago, women were referred to as 'the weaker sex', people have told me that Aboriginals are not human because they have a smaller brains, that indigenous people are drunks and can't be trusted and that the Irish are stupid. With stereotypes one has to ask the question, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did that group exhibit some characteristic which contributed to the story, or did that characteristic (if even true) arise out of the circumstances around oppression?
    • Dec 28 2011: Martin, I'm glad Norway acknowledges the issue of inequality in status, power, control and other significant things between males and females and that Norway has taken action to correct this age-old wrong. There is no need for you to reiterate that men and women are different. We all know and celebrate the differences as long as those differences are not the result of incorrect, negative brainwashing that result in women having less money income, less power to design the institutions within which we live and other basic, important issues. Society can be vastly improved by letting go of old stereotypes. The occupations themselves would change if males and females were equally involved in the design of the economy, business, politics, education and other basic constructs that affect our well-being. Please explain the repeitiveness of prejudices regarding religions and races, for example. Repeating lies does not convert them into truths. Anyway, congratulations to Norway for the progress it has made thus far. May this progress continue until men and women have the equality that will cause all Norway's citizens to live happily ever after.
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    • Dec 18 2011: Thanks, Mary. Just watched and listened. Happy Today.
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      Dec 19 2011: Brilliant Mary, thanks.
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        Dec 22 2011: Is Dick Masterson your hero?
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        Dec 22 2011: I notice you have managed to ignore my other response to you.

        It is equally my response to Dick.

        That there have been special men throughout history, does not make you special simply because you have a penis. Much like white supremacists don't get to ride the coattails of high-achieving whites in the past, nor do people get to ascribe the qualities of their lone important ancestor to themselves. It doesn't stop them from trying, but it doesn't make it real.

        There are women who are smarter, faster, taller, more agile, and generally better than you.

        Deal with it.
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        Dec 23 2011: I suppose it depends on what you consider being "superior".

        First of all, up until recently (chemicals are apparently starting to change this), men are more numerous at birth and then die off in greater numbers at earlier ages. You're more likely to die in accidents and to be murdered - as well as being the cause of the accident and the murderer. You could choose to look at that as being "superior" I suppose.

        Second, everyone has testosterone - male and female. It boils down to ratios. You aren't going to find too many women devoid of that particular hormone. Women who train hard naturally shift their hormonal balance; menstruation stops or is delayed. As a former gymnast I can tell you that women who want to be womanly tend to stop training to allow for the "feminine" hormones to kick in. If they stop training, obviously they are going to lose their competitive edge.

        As for maleness being superior in general, it really depends on the arena. Men with high testosterone levels are not particularly noted for consensus-building or networking. It is only because you have self-selected the arenae in which to define "superiority" that maleness wins.

        In fact, I would argue that it is precisely maleness that even makes the argument an issue - my own personal theory is it comes from that point in a boy's life when he discovers that he is different from mom in some way, and in that difference he needs to assign "better or worse". This infantile world-view persists and certain jobs are defined by males as being "manly" and the second women enter that workforce it is diminished.

        But we have seen that when men are away (as in times of war), all the tasks that are currently being done continue to be done. It's because women just view "work as what has to be done" and thus are willing to pick up the slack from what men are "too manly" to do.

        And still the bottom line is even if there are awesome, superior men, it doesn't mean YOU PERSONALLY are by virtue of having a penis.
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        Dec 23 2011: Then the issue is that you cannot hear what you are being told.

        Men have more numerous "achievements" because you are defining "achievements" as "things men have accomplished". You are refusing to see that others CHOOSE to accomplish other things.

        It's like saying dogs are better than cats because they dig deeper holes. Winning is an artifact of the criterion selected.

        Perhaps it is you who is incapable of understanding the argument made. But feel free to wander around in your bubble of self-satisfaction.
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        Dec 23 2011: Moreover, the dogs (men) are running around crowing, "We're awesome! We're awesome! We dig really big holes!" While the cats are thinking, "Holes are for poop. I don't make that much poop. Why would I want to make a big hole?"

        To carry the anthropomorphic analogy further, several cats might band together to hold a competition to make a big hole and drop a few dogs in it (i.e. compete on the male turf just to prove they can) but the most of the cats still don't care.

        The need to order non-hierarchical things hierarchically is an artifact of the male mind/experience. You feel free to run out and take the showy positions, we'll just make sure things run smoothly. Our self-worth isn't as invested in the showy.
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        Dec 24 2011: But you are still missing that ALL women have at least some measure of testosterone. And men also have a range of levels. Women at the medium to high end - who are still biologically women - have more drive and initiative than men in their medium to low. (And into the high.)

        Any attempt to ascribe roles and rights based on sex is therefore invalid.

        For instance, it's pretty clear that my IQ is higher than yours (don't worry, it's me, not you), Given a level playing field, you might make the assumption that you would have the advantage based on your sex, but you wouldn't. You might have an advantage based on past experience or some other set of serendipitous factors, or you might not.

        This range of overlap renders the APPLICABILITY of the observation that there are specific features in which the high points are male-heavy next to null. It may work at the universal level, but not at the particular.

        It also suggests that the smart men would be the ones who don't raise the hackles of women by declaring that only certain things are worth doing. It would (a) not bring the women who are more than capable of competing over to your specific turf, and (b) not de-motivate women from doing what they do best, picking up your slack and filling the gaps that "penis brain" seems to find "unworthy".
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        Dec 25 2011: The ironic thing about smart people is that they can tell how smart other people are by how quickly the others pick up on their intelligence. Convoluted, but true.
  • Dec 27 2011: Women are not unique.

    They are just like men.

    OR

    Women are unique.

    They are different than men.

    OR

    Everyone is unique.

    They are different than everyone else.

    However, due to the relatively similar neuro-chemicals present in members of the same gender, men are more like men, and women are more like women.

    There are exceptions, but for the most part (physically and mentally) Gisela is more similar than I am to Rhona.

    This is not an attempt to denigrate either one of you - if it makes you feel better, I am more similar to Tony than either of you.

    _________________________

    @ Rhona,

    Your insistence that Tony perform his typical job while recieving someone else's salary is an attack on capitalism. Is this a feminist thread or an anti-capitalist one? Just so you know - capitalism is the only economic model which gives women the opportunity you desire for them.

    ____________________________

    @ Gisela,

    There very well may be a women capable and willing to perform the dives Tony mentions. The question is - should I construct a business model based on actualities or possibilities? Am I to construct an ideology on actualities or possibilities?

    I acknowledge that some men also could not do the job. That is why he probably does not hire them. He wants a skill set. In his experience, he has found those who have the skill set are men. He hires them. He excels. What is your objection - on either philosophical or business grounds? You do not strike me as someone who values affirmative action over excellence. What is the objection (to his practice, not his remarks)?

    SEP
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      • Dec 27 2011: Joanne,

        Why do you object to the word 'feminist'? I was using it in the strict definition of 'in favor of women's rights'.

        I do not think women are oppressed.

        Thus I feel Rhona's insistence on their 'revolution' to be nonsense, and Bishop Tutu's words to be irrelevant.

        I do apologize for having a limited understanding of the conversational dynamic due to deleted messages, but stand by my conclusions based on what I have read.

        SEP
      • Dec 28 2011: Joanne,

        Of course I want to qualify that statement, if it is forced to stand alone from the context of the conversation.

        I do not think the creation of the archetype female, it's uniqueness and difference from that of the archetype male, and the social structure deriving therefrom is a form of 'oppression.'

        The horrors of child neglect is a gender neutral issue. As the father of a young girl, I can assure you my attitudes do not cause me to abuse her or leave her uneducated. Quite the opposite.

        The idea is not that males are superior to females. It is that they are different. Atleast in my case. That some backwoods Islamic tribe has political power in Saudi Arabia and that the Chinese people have no problem aborting their daughters because they would prefer a son, is not an indictment against my philosophy, it is an indictment against theirs. And I assure you that, just as males and females are different, so too are the respective worldviews held by third-world dictators, second world communists, and myself.

        I do not apply the word feminist to you, or atleast I did not. The title of the thread mentions the "Woman's Revolution." If you support a "Woman's Revolution," you are a feminist. That you are a humanist, might be the reason you are a feminist, but you are a feminist nonetheless.

        SEP
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          Dec 28 2011: You say 'As the father of a young girl, I can assure you my attitudes do not cause me to abuse her or leave her uneducated. Quite the opposite'.

          I would not assume that you would do harm to your child, why would I assume that, just because you are a man? Not at all. Terrible gender oppression exists in the world, we agree on that. It does not mean that it is ONLY men who oppress people because of their gender or that ALL females in the world suffer discrimination. It certainly does not mean, that just because you are a man, that you will oppress the women around you, or would stand by whilst someone else did so. Just as all oppression is a societal issue, so is gender oppression, and this is the core of Rhona's question. She has framed it in an exteme way, in order to excite debate I imagine. It seems to be working!

          If you agree that negative stereotyping, is one tool that aids repression, then the people along this thread were right to stand up and say no to it.
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          Dec 28 2011: Only moderators can remove comments.

          None of us have that tag beside our names.
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      Dec 27 2011: Why are you constructing a business model based on sex at all?

      I run a technology-based company, with a male business partner who is a designer. We worked together before at a different company, and often experienced that moment when we arrived at a client site and they would assume he was heading for IT and I was heading to marketing.

      I don't assume that all men can program.

      I somehow doubt that all men can dive.

      You hire people on an individual basis.
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          Dec 27 2011: If Gisela's remarks are taken out of context they might seem extreme, I can assure you they were not. Look at her other posts, she is an extremely reasonable and intelligent person.

          Tony's posts were rightly removed because they were full of the worst negative bigotry I have heard in a while. How would you reply to such comments? She used a tactic to highlight the absurdity of them.

          Perhaps it might be more fruitful if you join the discussion in its current form, so we can leave the ugliness behind us.
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          Dec 28 2011: But the thing is that it would be certain physiological traits - probably strength, lung capacity, maybe size - that would make one suited to diving in extreme conditions. And while there may be more men than women who fit the requisite physiology, it is not because it is inherent to some property "men-ness".

          There is a distinction there that is not merely semantic.

          So yes, there may be more men or women in a particular field. It doesn't make the field inherently masculine or feminine (and as you can probably guess, I am not going to be a nurse anytime soon).

          "Some men are better suited to [x]," is not the same as: "Men are better at [x]."

          Case in point, some men may be well-suited to logic, but damned few of them seem to have turned up in this thread. I, on the other hand, was a "survivor" in a modal logic course that went from 85 students to 7 after the first test, and I am female. (Though I may have been the only female to finish that course - I don't recall the specifics; I was the only female in a great many of the classes I took. And often the only black person.)
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          Dec 28 2011: Man, SEP, I hope you actually make it back to this thread in time to see this ^^ fine example of his "logic".

          Why is it that the people who are most likely to call others crybabies seem to whine the loudest when it comes back to bite them on the ass?
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          Dec 28 2011: Really?

          You cannot distinguish between 'some' and 'all', and *I* am the one with the diminished brain?

          There is a massive difference between "men are taller than women" and "the average man is taller than the average woman" - namely the first is false and the latter true.

          Men are not giraffes. While a sufficient quantity of giraffes are of a height that one the height of a cow is considered anomalous, the same cannot be said of men. The range of heights common to men largely overlaps the range of heights common to women. There are many men who stand 5'4" and many 5'10" women. Neither of those two states is rare enough to be considered "anomalous".

          I don't know how much more basic wording can be used to explain the difference.

          If you still do not understand then it seems you don't meet your own definition of male.
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        • Dec 28 2011: I wonder why you are ignoring the concept of receiving the precise pay that the crippled lade makes and letting the crippled lady make the precise pay that you make for ONE WEEK. Are you horrified at the thought of living for ONE WEEK on the pay that the lady makes?
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        • Dec 28 2011: Tony, you may want to look into other aspects of being a woman in Arab countries. The women's revolution is the last revolution that the world will ever need. When the male/female injustice/inequality issue is resolved, all men and all women will live happily ever after. Life will feel good for everyone.
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          Dec 28 2011: QUOTE: "Thank you for the data. However, the .77 ratio is faulty."

          You'll have to take that up with the US Census.

          QUOTE: "Your thoughts?"

          My thoughts are: "We see the world we want to see."
        • Dec 28 2011: Seth, Sometimes the "reply" button does not appear. That is why my responses seem to fall in the general category. When there is a "reply" button, I use it. I presume you have looked at the urls I provided related to male/female inequality. I'm not sure why you are wasting your fine mind on addressing this well-known, well-studied issue. Doth thou protest too much? Truth works. Do you think that religious hostility and discrimination is based upon the characteristics of the people in religious groups?
        • Dec 28 2011: Seth, I replied to your request for information about the differentials in pay for males and females, but I do not see them here. I don't know if you got them. There are numerous studies showing this.
    • Dec 28 2011: Capitalism has not solved the male/female inequality problem, though it has accomplished much good in elevating the well-being of people. It has also not resolved racism or religious hatred. Perhaps capitalism is not the cure-all for societies ills.
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        • Dec 30 2011: Tony, capitalism is fine, but that's not what we are discussing here. Obviously, you have not taken the time to look up the definitions of words basic to this discussion, i.e., "same," "equal," "different." Best wishes for a happy new year, Tony. I presume you are trying to live ONE WEEK on the salary you pay the crippled lady. How does that feel?
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    Dec 24 2011: What possible advantage is there in the two sexes throwing stones at each other? All it does is to drive the wedge further in between the two. We have evolved to be different - psychologically, biologically and physically - and I for one am thankful for that.

    It really is NOT a question of who is superior and who isn't. It is about difference, and within those differences lie beauty, mystery and unique intellect. These should be celebrated, not opposed. Women think differently to men - not better or worse - just differently.

    The kind of macho society we are currently nearing the end of, has been shown to be unsustainable because of its dog-eat-dog competitiveness. Many men will not want to hear this, but I am convinced that it will be the non-competitive, empathic style of leadership that will get us out of this god-forsaken mess the world is in at the present time.

    This is where women will excel.
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    • Dec 20 2011: Ah, Pierre, vous comprenez. Je présume que vous êtes un participant actif dans cette révolution final qui mène à la santé, de prospérité, de bonheur et toutes les bonnes choses pour toute l'humanité. Merci à nos actions quotidiennes en tant que révolutionnaires dans le mouvement pour l'égalité femmes / hommes, nous accélérons le progrès du monde à l'état naturel de joie pour laquelle nous sommes tous nés. Aujourd'hui Heureux de vous et vous aimons tous.
  • Dec 18 2011: Juliette, Good point. It is up to us to grab our own lives out of the clutches of the misled, miserable people of the past who, in imposing their angers and fears upon us and innocent children throughout the ages, while reaping undeserved respect seriously diminished the happiness level of humankind. You'd think by now people who studied history would stop repeating the mistakes, e.g., wars to bring peace. In master/slave relationships, it is unlikely that slaves will speak truth to masters. Thus masters will never get what they purport to want, e.g., true love. It takes truth to yield the health, love, respect, happiness and all other good things we are capable of having....in our generation. Let's stop being so patient. Males and females will reap the happy rewards of acknowledging their equality and living in truth. 'Where there is a will, there is a way.' The transition from human misery to human happiness can happen nearly overnight. Let's do it. Joyous today.
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    Dec 14 2011: Hi Rhona, I cannot tell if you are saying this for shock value or if you are actually serious about the claims you are making. Either way, I find your perspective to be deeply flawed because it is based on the principle that the world's problem are entirely based on gender inequalities, when it is obviously much more complex than the need to acknowledge equality and relax.
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      Dec 15 2011: Hi Dany, I wonder if the perspective is so deeply flawed after all. It certainly has been readily dismissed by several people. If Rhona had said instead; The world's hunger revolution is the last that the world will ever need. Enough nutrition is essential to human happiness ' I doubt the comment would have ellicited such open dismissal. This reaction from so many shows how deeply entrenched a disregard for true equality between the sexes really is. We take the essentially low status of women, totally for granted, it is now so firmly entrenched in our collective psyche.
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        Dec 15 2011: on the contrary, I would have reacted the same way had the keyword been replaced by world hunger. If you read my reply again, you will notice that I emphasize that the world's problems are very complex and do not have one sole source (although I could argue for humanity's greed). Gender inequality is not something I take lightly, because I am a passionate advocate for maternal health which is inevitably tied to women's empowerment. My criticism is aimed at debunking the idea that we can solve the plague of humanity by focusing on one factor. In reality, we need to focus on all problems at the same time (different people for different causes) and adopt a holistic perspective in the way we view activism. Acknowledging that gender inequality is not the only vice in the world does not take away from the seriousness of the problem
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          Dec 15 2011: Well I agree with you Dany, yet I do think Rhona is right to elevate it above other issues becasue it raises penetrating issues. If our social structures were more equitable between the sexes, would our transactions with each other and the planet be so exploitative?
    • Dec 18 2011: Dany, thank you for expressing your true thoughts and feelings. In focusing on the complexities, perhaps you are missing the simple cause/effect relationships, e.g., positive act/positive impact. You can experiment. Speak positive only for one day and observe how you feel and how others respond. You may also experience some serendipitous consequences to that. If you do this, please let me know the result.
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    Dec 25 2011: IAbout Tony below... I used to ask myself the same question in university: why "equalty" on the one hand and no mixed olympia sports on the other hand? For myself I have found some answers wich sumed up are actually one: there is a basic equality in nonequality or heterogenity.
    I a few months ago I found a quote atributed to Einstein: “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
    What I was doing and what you seem to do is judge an entire population based on criteria originally defined by one half of the population. By the monkeys who are now denigrating the fishes. So maybe we men should ask a different question: how come that a lot of you women, even if not the majority, are better then the majority of us men on items in which by biology or cultural boosting we should be best? How would we men score on a "test" made on the strengths of women?
    As a thought experiment, I imagine a world in 500 years when the lot of our technological problems will be solved and our societies will turn to art. And one of my grandgrandgrandchildren will come to have a splendid scientifical mind but no art inclination whatsoever. And maybe society will allow him to be a part-time kindergardener or a houseman and practice what he does best as a hobby. Because society doesn't realise how important it is.
    Michael Sandel made the point beautifully in one of the ethic lectures on youtube (starting with Rawls I guess) : What makes one more deserving for being born with the exact qualities that society demands at a certain time that would be regarded as unimportant 100 years before or after. Why be proud about the random winning of the genetic and cultural lottery?
    So yeah I think that the gender revolution is a very important one, to answer the starting question. I just don't think that it is a specific female revolution. There are other people in society who have at least the same amount of stake.
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      Dec 25 2011: I wonder if Tony will be better able to hear the words coming from a male.
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        • Dec 25 2011: Tony, I wonder if you think women should have an equal role in designing the institutions and systems within which our society operates. I wonder if you think women require an equal amount of money income and assets. I presume you realize that women ought to control their own behavior and men ought to control their own behavior and that neither should control the behavior of the other. Please look up the definition of the words "equal" and "same." Thank you.
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          Dec 25 2011: Tony, the comment was: Einstein: “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” The sentiment expressed therein, is totally different to the idea you express re the cat and the fish. Because you filtered it through your bigoted attitudes, you missed the point. Gisela, Rhona, Mihai, Albert Einstein and I all get the point, you do not. You see how stupid you become when you follow your bigotry?

          I have already violated one of my own personal principles continuing to egage with you, because I hope you will look at your comments, begin to see them for what they are and at least recognise and apologise for some of them.

          You and Mihai do not say the same thing, not at all. Unlike Mihai's remark, your comments are full of negative value judgements and the nastiest negative stereotypes. The conclusions you draw is that nothing needs to change, that things are as they should be. (bigots usually come up with a 'natural order ' I find) This attitude reflects gross bias and flies in the face of all the U.N. data on world equality, wherein women still do shockingly badly.
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      Dec 25 2011: We are not discussing these issues here, we are discussing prejudice against women. Re your racist remarks;

      1.Referring to affirmative action as 'special treatment meted out to backward classes, Negroes, and Aborigines.' and assuming those groups ARE backward, is racist.

      2. The assumption is the person performing these duties, would do them to an inferior standard. 'No patient would like to go to a doctor who is in that position because 33% of all government posts are reserved for backward classes. Nobody would like to travel in a plane flown by a pilot who became a pilot because of reservation.'

      3. Assuming it is because 'special rights' have had a negative impact on Aboriginal people and not colonialism as you point out has been the case in India; 'The standard of living of Aborigines in Australia, in spite of their being given special rights and concessions for decades is steadily deteriorating.

      4. This is a grossly offensive racist generalisation; '...have made them into a group of lazy people living on dole in special settlements, and their dole money is mainly spent on liquor.

      I notice you did not ask me to do the same think for all the hideous discrimanatory remarks you made against women. I am still waiting for you to apologise.
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      Dec 24 2011: Because the need to ascribe a hierarchy where none exists is a male trait.

      If you were a computer you could deal with difference without automatically assigning rank.
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          Dec 25 2011: I made this point before. You just don't understand what it means.

          The contributions you value are not necessarily those women value. Perhaps keeping things running smoothly should be more important than you think. Your inability to understand this very basic concept suggests more and more that you share little in common with these "superior" males.


          Anyone want to ask why I didn't actually correct his misconception about testosterone as the sole sex hormone in play?
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      Dec 24 2011: Tony, from Wiki; 'A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern English refers to persons hostile to those of differing sex, race, ethnicity, religious beliefs or spirituality, nationality, language, inter-regional prejudice, gender and/or sexual orientation, age, homelessness, various medical disorders particularly behavioral disorders and addictive disorders. Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world views.'

      I have encountered plenty of bigots through life, I was just not expecting to run into one on TED. Do you understand how vicious and hurtful your comments are, and how your attitudes affect others? How would you feel if you heard the equivalent negative and bigoted stereotypes spouted about Indian people? Would you think about all the little indian boys and girls who might suffer discrimination in the workplace, have their livelihoods and self esteem affected because of such horrible prejucdice? I would be just as concerned about that and I am not at all interested in your gender, only your hostile bigotry. If you were a woman spouting the same comments, I would react in exactly the same way, because prejudice translates to human suffering.
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          Dec 25 2011: Well at least you are consistent. Your prejudice and ignorance allows you to despise many other people too, not just women. I have nothing but contempt for your despicable views, and since I do not break bread or converse with racist people, will not engage with you again.

          If TED allows people such as yourself a platform, I am not sure I wish to participate further.

          By the way, I do not believe you have ever hired a female diver.
  • Dec 18 2011: Yes, Pierre, viva la difference! We are different. We are complementary. We are equal. Together - as equals - we shall co-create a joyous life for all humanity. Let's hurry. I'm getting impatient. I want our generation to be the one that chooses to live right and reap the happy results of our living in truth, respect, courage,like, love and joy. Let's do it. All we need to do is let go of the ideas and impacts of all those dead power and control freaks who have brainwashed and terrified young children into believing their own observations/thinking/understandings/feelings are not as valid as those of the angry and frightened dead people who imposed their nonsense on we the living. We have the freedom and power right now to convert our positive dreams into reality. We may as well do that. It feels good. Power to the positive!
  • Dec 18 2011: Frans, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I believe that the current thinking and behavior of women and men is hugely affected by the parental, religious and societal brainwashing all have received. It is up to our generation to shed that nonsense and begin living according to the truths we behold. Of course there are men and women who screw up in different situations. When I speak of equality, I mean the real thing. The concepts, the designs, the management, etc. Men need not be terrified by any truth. The consequence of injecting truth into every area of life will ultimately elevate the joy level of all of humanity. That is my goal. I am pretty sure we were born to have a good time. I am confident that you and I will continue being wonderful people. Others will see the happiness that accrues to us as a result of our positive acts and words and they will join us once they have the courage to shed their negative ancestral brainwashing. Courage! The slaves and the masters both need courage and confidence in truth and in their own good selves. Power to the positive! Equality between men and women is the most comprehensive category we can deal with, since females and males are a part of every subgroup whose lives need improving. I am confident that male/female equality will bring an end to all the other injustices that now exist. Let's give it a try. All it requires is honesty and courage. We've got that. It's just a matter of using the resources we currently possess. Today is a good day to begin. Do a minimum of one thing to cause equality between males and females. Thank you very much.
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        Dec 22 2011: If you want to be treated by a woman the way another man would do, don't blame the women.
        They are different as you say, they use other strategies and approach matters differently.
        Both ways are equally valuable for different purposes and can complement each other when both evaluate shared issues together.
        If you feel attacked by a woman you have to think again and see where you went wrong because your focus wasn’t probably the same as hers. Maybe then you notice that she was talking from the heart as you were talking from the mind. Both, heart and mind need each other to be right.
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    Dec 18 2011: Rhona, as I said on another place I love Rhonaism for your energetic positivity and because everyone that can speak up for her/himself is a real contribution to humanity. I love authenticity but the idea that you posed above is puzzling to me.
    Gender inequality? In my world there are people that feel themselves better or lower than others. It can be men or women, it can be because of color or background or ethnicity, it can be just self imagined.
    If I look at other parts of the world and especially at women I see all variations. I see women that are strong and powerful, I see them neglected, despised, exploited, in charge. Some cultural, or better traditional rules place women roles below that of men but often make exceptions for women outside marriage. I see women in top positions that are doing lousy and others doing fantastic jobs just as I see it with men.

    In another discussion on the same issue things went out of hand as I referred to woman that thought that to be equal to men they had to copy men and in particular the view they have about men. I think women are equal but different as men are different. If they try to bridge the differences they’re not different anymore and thus have become men in appearance. That has nothing to do with being equal or not.
    I do however see that the different qualities of women and men are complementary and it would be a good thing as they were represented both in equal numbers on positions of importance like politics, directory boards and other places where decisions have a social impact.

    I think women are people like men and both you find in all sorts of character and where they are deprived from expressing themselves they need to be empowered. This can make the world a better place.
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        Dec 18 2011: Didn't know you still was chasing predators or prey for that matter.
        No matter what your opinion may be on hens, I'm sure she's the most desirable creature for any rooster.

        To stay in animal language, I just saw a beautiful story on snow falcons. The male was feeding the young till exhaustion. The snow hare grew to large for him to lift in the air so, all stressed he gave up all together. As the situation became critical for the chicks the female took air.
        She grabbed a hare and couldn't lift it either then for a short distance. Then she ripped the body to pieces and brought to the young one piece at the time.
        Alleviated by this the male started to cooperate again and everything went well afterall.

        What it tells is that everyone has a blind spot and males more often at one place as females have it on another place.
  • Dec 15 2011: I do not recall saying "men are to blame." That concept is coming from you. Perhaps you have a guilty conscience. If so, you can erase it today by writing a check to any woman for 50% of the total of your assets at this moment and delivering it to that woman today - with a smile on your face. HAPPY TODAY. (Please do not attribute to me things I do not say. Thank you.) Men and women need to come up with the courage and wisdom to let go of our negative, ancestral brainwashing and live in accordance with our own thinking/observations/values/etc. I hope you choose to actively participate in this final, joyous revolution to co-create a happy world for all of humanity. Your own happiness level will rise. Happy Today.
  • Dec 14 2011: Yup!
    1. Women are not the only group. Equalizing the male/female situation would resolve the others automatically.
    2. The other revolutions would be automatically resolved, once this one is successful. It is the most comprehensive.
    3. Yes. There will be a simultaneous resolution of all those unpleasant issues. It will be a positive domino effect.
    4. Yes. There is mass confusion because everyone runs from facing this simple, obvious issue. Everyone is puzzled that religions all allege their "only trueness" while disrespecting other people's different religious beliefs, money and medicine aren't working well together, poverty happens ubiquitously, etc. Dealing with the simple truth that males and females are equal will remove that underlying hypocrisy causing truth to bubble up in every other area of life. Truth and justice can become fashionable once people observe and experience the ever-growing flow of good that ensues. I wonder why this simple truth- males equal females- is so frightening. Life can feel better for everyone. This is a way to get from here to there. Let's go.
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      Dec 15 2011: I am not sure why your reply was not posted under my question, but thanks for replying Ms. Pavis.
      OK, so you are sticking with the proposition that resolving inequality against women would, by osmosis or the domino effect, solve ALL the world's problems! Wow!
      I think it is safe to say women do not promote inequality against women. Right?
      That only leaves men to take the entire blame for everything wrong in the world! Are you saying that?
      So, if sexual inequality were to be resolved throughout the world Arab nations would embrace Israel; war would be no more; poverty would disappear; corruption and tyranny would vanish forever; global unity and prosperity would prevail? I don't think so.
      • Dec 15 2011: Yup. Fingerpointing not necessary. Let's just all do what we all know we need to do so we can start living happily, respectfully, lovingly ever after. Being truthful with ourselves and others is the best starting point. Let's go. Life will be soooooo much fun for everyone as soon as we achieve this worthy goal. I'm sure there is something you and I can do today to acknowledge and manifest our equality to the oppositie sex. May as well do what we can. We are free, powerful people. Hurry. Get moving, Ed. Thanks.
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          Dec 15 2011: Your reply is about as succinct as possible. . . "Yup."
          Sorry, Rhona. I cannot muster the motivation to get moving on your misdirected tour.
          I will do continue to do everything I can to treat women in an equal manner, but I cannot buy-in to your suggestion that men are to blame for every problem on Earth.
          I think you are grossly underestimating the contribution women have made from the Garden of Eden right up to our current condition.
          I say equality for all, even in the blame for our ills!
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          Dec 18 2011: It might, perhaps, be more constructive to resist going back to Adam and Eve every time a new attempt at finding good solutions is made.

          Imagine if Christopher Columbus would stand at the back of the ship, always looking at the shore they left behind, and every time someone would come up and say something about the new world out there, he would point them all back to the shrinking shore in his looking glass.

          How would we then ever know the majesty and glory of holding hands while taking in the Grand Canyon !!
  • Dec 14 2011: Dany, I am "actually serious." Perhaps life is not as complex as you think, e.g., positive words have positive impacts. Do your own personal experiments and you will observe positive cause/positive effect relationships. We have all been brainwashed in many ways that are proven defective. Wars keep happening. Religious people keep thinking they just happened to be born into the "one true religion." Society repeats the mistakes of the past because children are badly brainwashed by power-and-control-freak "authority" figures. Let's free ourselves from the negative rhythms of the past and co-create a positive world in which everyone gets to be their own, authentic, creative selves instead of cheap imitations of people who brainwashed them.
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      Dec 15 2011: Rhona, life may be simple as you say, but the human experience is extremely complex and we should not pretend otherwise. Wars are happening, religions are separating us, ethnocentrism, racism, and sexism are polluting our lives. Positive thinking is great and it is essential in order to build a better world, but it is not enough. If that's all we needed, the world's problem would have been solved a long time ago because you and I are certainly not the first ones to have believed in the necessity to spread positive thinking and eliminated negativity. The human experience is a complex one and it will do us a lot of good to acknowledge it.
      • Dec 15 2011: Dany, the human experience has been made to be complex by those with dubious interests, e.g., tax codes, bibles. If you check in with your own head/heart/body/self, you know in every situation what the right thing to do is. Positive cause/positive effect is a simple concept. Try an experiment for 2 days. On one day, utter one negative statement after another and observe the impacts. On anouther day, utter one positive statement after another and observe the impacts. I do not think it is that complex. Unfortunately, most people operate in accordance with their negative ancestral brainwashing. Our generation must free itself of that and then work together cooperatively to co-create the just, respectful, creative, loving world I am certain we can co-create. Truth to ourselves and truth to others is the logical starting point. HAPPY TODAY!
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    Dec 14 2011: I think there's a piece missing in your line of arguments. I believe the reason why we need a women's revolution is precisely because we want to strive towards achieving gender equality. Perhaps you're not aware, but women are frightfully discriminated in many parts of the world. Of course, if equality somehow manifested in this world at one point, everything would be great. But in reality, in order to achieve, say 5% of gender equality, you need an input of 20%. Feminist movement may seem extreme at times, but that is only natural considering the unresponsiveness of the world towards making a difference.
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        Dec 17 2011: Tony Francis, your comment is backward and depraved. It is so offensive, I would flag it as abuse except that I hope other TEDsters will read it. Your comment actually strengthens Rhona Pavis's standpoint. If someone who actually considers himself an educated man is not afraid to express such a viewpoint, then things really are as dire as Ms Pavis suggests.

        If you were an employer Mr Francis, how would you consider a female applicant in your company? Clearly pretty worthless. If you were in government and had to decide how best to allocate resources, would you be too concerned to ensure women had the same access to education as men? Probably not. It is people like you Mr Tony Francis who have shackled women around the world today, for no other reason than ignorance and a sense of your own self importance.

        Shame on you, shame on you.
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    Dec 14 2011: "When men and women acknowledge and experience their equality, there will be happiness, health, peace ..."

    You are clearly a prophet, but I suspect there are a few other things in the world that stand in the way of universal happiness, health, peace ...
  • Dec 30 2011: I see we have just over an hour remaining. I assume we are all in agreement that THE WOMEN's REVOLUTION IS THE LAST REVOLUTION THAT THE WORLD WILL EVER NEED. I also assume that all of us who have participated in this thread on ted.com (and billions of people all over our adorable Earth) are actively working with deeds and words to make this happen as soon as possible so that we can move on to live lives in an on-going state of pleasure, health, happiness and all other good ways of being. HAPPY TODAY. Thanks to all for your valuable input. We are succeeding!
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      Dec 30 2011: QUOTE: "I see we have just over an hour remaining. I assume we are all in agreement that THE WOMEN's REVOLUTION IS THE LAST REVOLUTION THAT THE WORLD WILL EVER NEED."

      I am not sure why you would assume that when some have said they do not agree.

      While I do disagree with folks like Tony, I do not agree in any "revolution" based on a dichotomy (males/females; theists/atheists; capitalists/communists; etcetera.)
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    Dec 29 2011: The absolute last revolution will be based on economics.
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      Dec 30 2011: I think the statement said "revolution we need".

      Which is not to say that we don't need an economic one.

      Or, frankly, that valuing women wouldn't in and of itself be an economic revolution.
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        Dec 30 2011: You now owe me 200 dollars !
      • Dec 30 2011: Good point, Gisela. Of course a just, accurate valuation of women within all economic systems today would be a huge part of the successful women's revolution, radically increasing the joy level of humankind throughout our wonderful world. I wonder when men will awaken to this simple fact. Truth works. Irrational fears will dissolve the instant equality between females and males happens. Let's give it a try.
      • Dec 30 2011: Gisela, I have been unable to respond to your comment that started "I think I have solved the issue that we're currently having with Tony." Do not know why. I couldn't edit something I wanted to edit on ted.com either.
    • Dec 30 2011: It's a free country. You are entitled to believe what you believe, Thomas. Economics has been a major obsession of nations for a long, long time. You didn't mention anything about the result leading to human happiness. I believe the women's revolution will be the last revolution and will lead to happiness for all males and all females. Shall we give it a try?
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        Dec 30 2011: I believe the women's revolution is strong and in progress. If I were a millionaire I would push it further. To me, it is a given that all people will have the same rights, and the good guys will win! I have a lot of strong women in my family, they have worked hard their whole lives, and they won't stop either. But until economics is taken care of, and people don't have to work crappy jobs for minimum wage, we are all being suppressed. But yes, not only am I giving the women's revolution a try, I am involved.

        I am however, very ticked off that now both people in a relationship have to work 40 hours per week, in order to make ends meet. (I am more ticked off about the whole African brass rings around the neck, or the women's Chinese foot phenomenon.)
        • Dec 30 2011: Thomas, Glad you are an active part of the women's revolution. I agree with you about the outrage of both parties having to work 40 hours per week. Economics has obviously not solved our economic problems. Slavery causes lies from masters and lies from slaves. Much of our system is veiled slavery in the form of low wages and business management design. Self-serving corporations and wealthy individuals write or cause to be written legislation and regulation that favors their own interests and their interests alone. Women do not earn fair or equal wages. I think more truth is needed in the discussions of economics, politics, religion and everything else. Truth does work. There is lots of talk going on and little truth being transmitted. The systems are manipulated to serve the interests of the few clinging to the power they are afraid to share. Of course things are worse in other countries, but our country can still do a whole lot to make things better. Power to the people. Power to the positive. Let's make this male/female equality thing happen so we can all relax and enjoy the infinite blessings of our wonderful world.
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      Dec 27 2011: First off, I did and do not use "alpha" and "beta" to classify men based on size, strength, etc. I know several very large men who are "teddy bears" and would probably match your "beta male" description emotionally with "alpha" physical characteristics.

      Second, I can't imagine why you would correlate being in the "beta" classification (either emotionally or physically) with not being susceptible to societal influence.

      If there was indeed a correlation between testosterone and height, we wouldn't see many short bald men.

      But I am curious as to what you define as the societal benefits of this need to classify occupations and tasks as "masculine" and "feminine" once you have effective birth control in play. It makes sense having women stay close to the village when they are the primary caregivers, but I'm not so sure it holds in an age when women can opt never to bear children.
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    • Dec 26 2011: "Women are good in office for recurring jobs. but are very slow in mastering or developing a new procedures. "
      This statement that you made is incorrect. Furthermore, it is insulting to women. It demonstrates your irrational prejudice against women.
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      Dec 26 2011: Tony. You won't run as fast as the fastest female runner, wrestle as hard as the best female wrestler and I guess you aren't a Marie Curie for that matter. Don't worry, I'm neither.
      "Women" aren't anything. Statistically they might be (though I hear lots of talk and see less studies) "somehow", but that doesn't mean anything on the personal level.
      I agree that jobs should be given based on an aptitude test. And I would even go so far in saying that "affirmative action" sometimes does wrong. Boo-hoo on that, man. We have wasted the aptitudes of our women for at least 4 or 5 millenia now because we have judged them by our criteria and built a society where their aptitudes talents and geniouses for that matter didn't come to serve us all. Because we were too short-sighted. I'm not talking of the 2.5 % andvantage a man may have sometimes over a woman, I'm talking about a farm that has two cows and you're only milking one because sometimes you observed her giving 2.5% better milk. Rational my ass.
      I see this as a rebelling phase. Rebelling most of the times means that you do a small stupid thing in order to avoid doing the big stupid thing that was going on, only to (if you're not neurotic) stop doing the small stupid thing after you realised the big stupid thing has indeed been stopped. It's in the history of individuals and societies over and over. And it's got a name: dialectics: the circle goes round - thesis - antithesis - synthesis. Remaining in the thesis is stagnation. Which for living organisms and societies means death.
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          Dec 28 2011: How did I miss this particular gem?

          "But the modern western woman is not as clever as our ancestors and cannot understand their logic, especially after a few years in a university."

          The modern Western woman lives in a vastly different universe than the ancients (who actually tended to worship the feminine, so I think you mean much more recent than ancient). Much that was labour-intensive can now be done with the push of a button and the size advantage of being male is gone.

          Birth control plays a large factor as well - it was not logical to invest the energy in training someone who would then take that knowledge and stay home taking care of children. The exceptions, of course, were women who were supposed to remain virgins (e,g, the untouched priestesses).

          And how is a politician flattering a woman somehow worse than flattering the egos of men with the lies they already tell? "No new taxes!" "My what a beautiful baby!" And oh yeah, that Margaret Thatcher was such a puppet. Especially when you compare her to the strength and wisdom of George W. Bush.

          Wow, you are just full of insights.
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          Dec 28 2011: Again with the not understanding the whole "range thing".

          I am in the 99.9th percentile. I'm about 60 IQ points off average (depending on the measure used). So your paltry 3 IQ point advantage bestowed upon you isn't really helping you in this argument.

          In fact, I am starting to suspect you are what balances out my IQ in determining "average".
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          Dec 30 2011: Tony, are these the lengths you have to go to to justify your bigotry? Reading Pseudo-Science written by weirdos? Look at what else Satoshi Kanazawa has to say:

          'Kanazawa calls himself “The Scientific Fundamentalist,” and claims to take “a Hard Look at the Truths of Human Nature.” His other articles include things like “Are All Women Essentially Prostitutes,” “Beautiful People Really ARE More Intelligent,” “What I Have Learned from Barry Goldwater,” and this statement on Eva Longoria and Tony Parker’s divorce:

          'Yes, I called it, nearly two years ago. I knew their marriage was very short-lived long before they themselves did. Once again, such is the power of the evolutionary psychological imagination. We know everything, not because we are special, but because we are evolutionary psychologists.
          I’m a Mac, and I predict events before they happen.'

          Are you a Mac too Tony? Sheesh. How depraved is this thing going to get.
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      Dec 28 2011: Tony,

      I suspect you are just playing a little game to see what kind of a reaction you can get. Surely you do not believe this nonsense?

      If you do, we are going to vote you out of the "real man" club (if you were ever in it to begin with.)
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      Dec 25 2011: If one is offended, it can only be personally offended. Gender bigotry and racism offends me, BUT do not flatter yourself that I apply any value judgement you might arrive at through your bigotry against women, to myself, and are therefore offended on that level. You do not know me, and if you did, I am sure you would not have the gall to spout your poison directly to me in a face to face conversation.

      You will not apologise, so as far as I am concerned, I do not wish to engage with you further, on this or any other thread.
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          Dec 26 2011: Is this what I miss by not having THC receptors?
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    • Dec 26 2011: Tony, I can tell that you really want to understand why the women's revolution is the last revolution that the world will ever need. I have an idea which you may want to try that will accelerate your understanding of this. For one week you take and live on the exact salary that you pay the crippled lady who works for you. For that same week pay that crippled lady the salary that you take for yourself. During that one single week of your life your understanding of this issue will probably soar and you will then be wise enough to acknowledge your equality, apologize for the insulting remarks you have made to women and to cultures other than your own and you will enthusiastically join this final revolution as an ardent activist. This will make you one of the revolutionary heroes that causes the emancipation of all men and all women to simply relax and enjoy each other and life. This does seem worth a one-week experiment, I believe.
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        • Dec 27 2011: Tony, you seem to have missed my suggestion that for ONE WEEK you accept and live off of the exact amount of money that you now pay to the crippled lady and that for ONE WEEK you pay the crippled lady the exact amount of money you take for yourself. I believe that, in doing this, you will develop a sensitivity to one of the key issues related to this final human revolution that will result in the health, prosperity and happiness of all men and all women. In our societies money is a key form of power. Right? Let's make sure that women and men have equal power and control over their own lives. Keeping women down, keeps societies and economies down. Consider the status of women in Egypt and the status of women in Denmark. You see clearly where there is better health, wealth, progress, education and general human well-being and happiness. Any society that wants to be successful must acknowledge and implement equality between females and males. I wonder if you have the openness, wisdom and courage to try my suggestion for that ONE WEEK experiment. Try it. See how it feels. Take action. Join the final revolution that causes true human justice, prosperity, health and happiness for all people.
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      Dec 26 2011: Even if you were right on these accounts, tony, the Sentence would still also read:

      "Everyone is a genious, but if you would judge the average man in his ability to perform high-agility gimnastics, to connect emotionally to himself and to other people, in his supporting and nurturing skills and his theory of mind - he might end up looking down upon women because he isn't man (or woman for that matter) enough to admit there is alway a side of the story in wich he is the cripple, the looser, the "subhuman" ".

      We're still talking about the same average man in a race car who is proud that he can drive faster then any Plane before takeoff, just inocently forgetting his insignificant incapability to fly.

      People are people, this is not a gender issue. It is about every human being having strengths and weaknesses which society should learn to appreciate and enforce for the good of the appreciated person and for the good of us as his neighbours. We need a society that can transform ability into values, into movement. Generally.
      If we formulate it like this it doesn't put up men against women. This isn't about vendetta for the stupidity of millenia of patriarchy. Who would insure that an equal society on the male-female axis wouldn't surpress more efficiently with a more stable group a part of the population with other talents? We need the energy of the feminism, and the rage that it evokes in patriarchal types, and we need to put it to good use for us all. So be glad about every Tony and every Rhona, Gisela and Joanne. Use that energy for transformation and keep this dialogue for whatever good it brings. Thanks.
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        Dec 27 2011: Love the spirit of your reply Mihai, but I am not sure the women who have to work under the Tony's of this world would agree. All the best.
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          Dec 27 2011: Thank you, Joanne. I'm not sure - or "sure not" - either. But if you ask someone with III degree burns what to do he might scream "kill me"! Sometimes the long term solutions may have to come from people who are neither emotionaly involved nor indifferent. Machiavelli once said: you have to go out of the city and on to the neighbouring mountain to see and understand some of the city.
          It might in the end be the difference between a long-term solution and a patch destined to avoid a long term solution. Allthough I may be wrong and it might be a rationalisation to avoid a small solution where the big one is to hard to do.
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          Dec 27 2011: Would you agree that there are men not suited for diving in the conditions you describe?

          Do you understand that even within one sex there is a range of ability and capacity that overlaps the range of the other sex?

          Can you not even conceive that there may be a woman who is indeed suited to working in that environment? (Though that is no guarantee that she would have the interest.)


          What men like you fail to realize is that the secondary outcome of defining jobs as male and female is that it denigrates men who are either not interested in or not able to perform those tasks labelled "masculine".

          What if all people took away from this discussion was that you aren't "a real man" because you can't reason logically?
      • Dec 27 2011: I am glad that Tony is expressing his true thoughts and feelings even though I do not agree with them. I respect him for participating in this important discussion. The fact that he is listening and thinking and expressing himself is useful to our obtaining progress and ultimate success in accomplishing this positive goal of ours.
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      Dec 25 2011: I am not attempting to disprove the content of your statement. I am questioning the validity of the assertion entirely.

      Hermaphrodite or not, you have posited a particularly masculine premise. It appears you are unable to conceive of it from a meta-perspective, which, for all your male "superiority" only supports my statement that what may be valid at the macro is utterly inapplicable at the micro.

      In this particular is definitely NOT contained the universal.
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          Dec 25 2011: Oh, but it is easy to explain tony, i did it below. The olimpic games have been designed as a test by men for men in the areas that men do best.
          I hope you are confortable with overexagerating as a means to make a point:
          So as far as you don't go to say it would be fair to have a race swimming between men and dolphins, a wrestling competition men vs. Grizzly and a cheetah competing in a 300 m running - it would only be fair to have the biologically best compete in an AREA where they are the best.
          So I think the feminist perspective has a point here, though they just narrow it down to the gender aspect of competing. Competing between people with different talents and strengths is absurd when it comes down to narrow aspects where one is bound to loose the competition. And we live in a society that enforces male values, partly lucky me (because who really wants half of his species unlucky? or unfulfilled partners?). In fact society biases so much that half of the gender people out there would be eager to sacrifice womanhood and the things women are really much better then men (on the average, like men on average are better in strength tasks), just for the sake of a misunderstood equalty.
          While equalty should mean: my best in A is as good as your best in B though I am way better than you in A and you are way better than me in B . And we shape a world where we put A and B to good use for each other.
          No matter what your favourite cake is, it would be hell to be allowed only to feed on it as a sole source of nourishment for the rest of your life.
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      Dec 25 2011: 'Equal' and 'different' are not the same thing. Equal is an ideal, different is a fact, you confuse the two because it is convenient for you, because you suffer from a moral deficiency and have no desire, as far as I can see to change it.

      NONE of your high moral values count, none of them count at all, until you can see this, and are willing to change it.
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        Dec 25 2011: I really think that you guys get hung up on semantic questions rather than intrinsic ones. But it reveals how much energy is involved in these issues.
        If you say that equal is the ideal where difference is a fact you can be sure that his psyche will interpret this as: you want to make us all the same. To be more precise: you want to erase me as a unique being.
        I also think tony is biased. But I think he is biased by a general thing: "I want that my strengths and/or the strengths of the group I'm identifying with to compose the criteria for judging general worth". This brings a double psychological comfort: it makes me one of the best (because noone can beat me at a quizz I designed) and it assures that the same doesn't happen to me, that I am not judged and valued by other people's subjctive and arbitrary criteria.
        The problem with that bias is more subtle an more severe than the patriarchal/male chauvinist one: We all have it. We. All. Me, Tony, every female manager who looks down on a housewife, everyone who feels better about themselves about being "right" where others "just don't get it", so I guess: sometimes you too.
        To the point of the topic: the women's revolution done in that spirit will free us from this prison just to get us in the next larger prison. Which would be fine for sure, but leaves me wanting.
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          Dec 25 2011: Mihai; Your comment is very sensitive and I admire your compassion for Tony. You open an interesting perspective when you pointed this out; 'If you say that equal is the ideal where difference is a fact you can be sure that his psyche will interpret this as: you want to make us all the same. To be more precise: you want to erase me as a unique being.' I think you highlight the attitude of fear that lies around this issue. That is not a reason to avoid seeking change though, is it.

          I disagree with this; 'To the point of the topic: the women's revolution done in that spirit will free us from this prison just to get us in the next larger prison.' I think perhaps you are assuming that 'equality' means reversing the current situation, except placing women in the dominant role. This is not my vision of equality.

          If one looks at societies where the power structures are not one sided toward one sex, but are shared, where ownership and control of resources are also shared or communal, we see some interesting characteristics. People are not in conflict with each other. Crime, especially crimes against women and children are virtually non existent. People seem happier too. We could use Nepal and Ladakh, (traditional society) and some Pacific Island nations too, as evidence of this.

          Equality between the sexes or otherwise, means to remove destructive power monopolies from one group, not to simply turn them over to another. When social systems are designed to benefit people more equally, everyone is happier and more fulfilled. I believe that is Rhona's point. Can't see anything wrong with that idea, can you?
    • Dec 25 2011: I agree with Joanne that you need to look up in a dictionary the definitions of the words "equality" and "same." I also agree that you need to acknowledge your prejudices and apologize for your numerous insults to women and to other groups of people who have had positive impacts on humanity that you have insulted. Power to the positive.
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      Dec 25 2011: If this is true, 'I do not have any prejudice against any group or race or gender' then I think you should recognise and apologise for some of the truly offensive comments you have made.
    • Dec 25 2011: I assume you pay her wages that reflect the fact that her material needs and desires are similar to your own, since you are claiming to be a fair person. Think about how you would feel if your money income were the same as her money income.
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      Dec 25 2011: No you should not lie. If you are a righteous and fair man, or believe yourself to be one, you must change your attitudes. Anyone can make the change you should make, no matter how difficult it seems at first.

      I myself do not follow the cultural paradigms my parents and peergroup taught me as a child. I have travelled through the world and witnessed people all over the world until I understood the following; people are people wherever you go. Nothing is as it seems on the surface, so don't judge anyone. If you think another person is less clever than you, or less beautiful or capable, it is probably you who are foolish, inept in some way, and ugly not them. The only universal truth among poeple is suffering, the suffering one person delivers to another, the suffering human's cause toward animals and the planet. Bigotry, is a type of violence, it causes suffering.
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      Dec 25 2011: I have lived in India, among the Indian people, for more than one year. I stayed in big cities among people who have a contemporary education, and in villages among traditionally educated people. I have spent time in Nepal, Sikim, Dharamsala, and most of the Indian states, including Kerala, which has the best statistics for women's literacy in all India. I understand the ravages of British colonialism in India, and also the ravages of foreign colonialism in countries like Ladakh, and Nepal very well. You are not explaining anything to me which I do not already know and in fact, have witnessed with my own eyes. India is one reason, Tony, why I am so active against prejudice and cultural ignorance.

      That you, on one hand, mourn the atrocities committed against the people of India and on the other hand, consider other races 'inferior' and another genders 'inferior' only goes to demonstrate that you are a hypocrite as well as a bigot.
    • Dec 25 2011: Tony, I believe you may appreciate seeing the movie called WATER. I'm sure it is available in the Hindi language, if that is your native tongue. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0240200/ Deepa Mehta directed it.
  • Dec 22 2011: Tony, I am guessing that you are referring to the heads of the male population. I do not agree. I think males and females have equal intelligence. Now that the women of Egypt are awakening, the nation of Egypt will probably arise out of its long-term poverty and general suffering of the population that failed to appreciate the equality of females and males in every institution within the borders of Egypt. There are now grounds to be optimistic about the future of Egypt. By the way, maybe the world is not simply black and white. Heros may not be simply good and villains may not be simply bad. They could have some complexity. Maybe there are lots of colors, points of view and other conditions besides on and off and up and down. Life is complex. Life is interesting. POWER TO THE POSITIVE MALES AND FEMALES!
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    • Dec 28 2011: Pierre, I wonder if you appreciate the importance of women having the same purchasing power and pay-for-work as men have. I wonder if you understand the importance of women participating in the design of all systems within our society, e.g., political, religious, economic.
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      Dec 18 2011: uh you seem to have trouble hitting the correct reply button. Your supreme gender superiority must be failing you today.

      Bigotry, racial or gender predjucdice is not an argument. Instead it reflects an inability to think outside the square, a low level of moral integrity, an ignorance of the world and its inhabitants, and a lack of empathy for others.
      • Dec 19 2011: Thanks for explicitly expressing appreciation for my verbal expressions now while I am still alive, Joanne. Happy Today to you and all you love.
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          Dec 22 2011: Do you understand what the sentence "there is greater variation within a sex than between sexes" means?

          There may indeed be a difference between Usain Bolt's record and Florence Griffith-Joyner's, but what percentage of men can run 100m at 10.49 seconds? There are lots of people who are more intelligent than I am (imagining that I were at the dead bottom of the 99.9th percentile, which I'm not, that would still leave 7,000,000 globally, a substantial number) . Does that mean I am destined to be a secretary?

          Your logic is faulty.

          You, like most bigots, want to ascribe to yourself the qualities of those with abilities well above your own, strictly by virtue of having an attribute in common with them.

          Einstein may have had a penis, and you have may a penis, but that's pretty much as far as the comparison goes.
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          Dec 23 2011: Heavy sigh. You just dont get it Tony, do you. That is because you are a bigot. Because you do not know you are a bigot, you do not know that bigotry does not have 'an argument'. It is an expression of hate, bias and insecurity. To reply to any of your 'points' would lend credibility to your bigotry, and give credence to a viewpoint that by its existence aids repression and impedes the personal choices and freedoms of a group of human beings who are different to you.

          You do not understand that you are bigoted either because you have been taught to think this way and have not (so far) developed the moral courage and/or the intellect to challenge it, or perhaps because of a deep seated psychological issue possibly related to erectile disfunction or some other inferiority complex. Bigotry is born out of fear Tony, did you realise that?
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          Dec 29 2011: What were you "designed" for Tony?
    • Dec 18 2011: Ah, poor Tony Francis, you are a perfect example of the urgent need for equality between males and females! You seem unaware that you are a victim of the inequality between men and women. Within your response is the revelation of your self-deception and inability to perceive the obvious truths, e.g., you yourself expressing the very "prejudice" that you accuse women of having, "coherent" thinking lacking in your response. Get with the male/female equality program quickly, Tony. Become an active, positive part of the female/male equality revolution. Your joy level will rise quickly. Truth works to achieve our positive goals. Let go of all that fear and anger. Open yourself up to the positive probabilities of male/female equality. Give it a try. Happy Today.
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        • Dec 21 2011: Who cares what people wear? I don't know any women who want to wear men's clothes or behave like your father, but I know that all women of freedom, wisdom and courage desire and demand equality. I have never met a misogynist who doesn't say he loves women. Some people, men and women, lack awareness of themselves. Some people think that, when they express a prejudice, they are expressing "facts." I do not know why you are unable to acknowledge that things, e.g., livers, kidneys, hearts, can be DIFFERENT AND EQUAL. Women and men are DIFFERENT and EQUAL and most men and women are happy about that.
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          Dec 29 2011: My last response to you: I am certain your mother is a wonderful woman, and that she deserves your devotion, if she chose to ' wear gent's clothes, sport ... a mustache, and behave...like my father' you would love her just as much anyway, yes?

          Why then, does it matter what another woman, just like your mother to someone else, chooses? Should she not have the right to choose? Equality is about people having the freedom to choose, without incurring the judgement and negative responses of others.
  • Dec 15 2011: Edward Long wondered why a comment in reply to him was not placed in the proper location and now I am unable to access a comment by Joanne Donovan ("Joanne's message begins: "It is interesting that Rhona's idea has been so readily dismissed by several people. ") to read or reply to that. And I am having the same problem reading and responding to "Paul Lillebo replied to a comment you made on the idea, "Religious Bridge"!Paul's reply begins: "Not a bad idea at all, Rhona. But ... clearly Allah would take a back seat in the name Hajeal. Mu.."

    Does this mean that the TED.com conversation site is not currently operating properly? or what?
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      Dec 15 2011: I noticed that Rhona, that you did not seem to be able to reply to people's comments. We can reply to yours, so it seems. I noticed someone else having the same problem on another conversation. Not sure what is going on there.
      • Dec 15 2011: This time it seems to be working. Oh, well. Hope it continues to work. I am still unable to read your comment that began "It is interesting that Rhona's idea......" I do not have that on my list that claims to be the full conversation.
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          Dec 15 2011: 'It is interesting that Rhona's comment has been so readily dismissed by several people. If Rhona had said instead; The world's hunger revolution is the last that the world will ever need. Enough nutrition is essential to human happiness ' I doubt the comment would have ellicited such open dismissal. This reaction from so many shows how deeply entrenched a disregard for true equality between the sexes really is. We take the essentially low status of women, totally for granted, it is now so firmly entrenched in our collective psyche.'

          I took it off because it I repeated the idea in a conversation to Dany.
  • Dec 14 2011: Paul, this simple change I suggest could result in a simultaneous solution to all the world's problems. Let's give it a try and see what happens. I know humanity can quickly learn to live in health and happiness. It will feel more natural and certainly make life a far more pleasurable experience than it is now.
  • Dec 14 2011: I wonder why you would think I was unaware of the gender inequality situation throughout the world, since I posted this. Let's convert our ideas into reality. I have done social science research on this and other topics. Now is the time for manifesting justice, truth and other things everyone knows are required for a healthy, happy humanity.
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    Dec 14 2011: Wow, Rhona, those are some sweeping assertions you make!
    1). The only group subjected to unequal social/political treatment is women?
    2). Women alone need a revolution?
    3). Happiness, health and peace are elusive because men and women don't acknowledge their equality?
    4.) The basis of all the world's turmoil and suffering is the unequal treatment of women?
    This should be a vigorous conversation. Can we begin with you confirming my itemized paraphrase of your idea, point by point?
  • Dec 13 2011: I have to throw this in, as I read it in the paper today. It says that 'Irish women are beter off than men in Ireland. Women are twice as likely to have a higher education and a better job than their male partners'
    That kind of shakes the boat, no? ;-)
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      Dec 13 2011: In Ireland maybe Aindreas, and in one sphere of society. Unfortuately women are still grossly underrepresented globally across the important markers of civilisation, nutrition, education and in positions of leadership and power. They make up more than half of the world's population and give birth to all of the worlds children yet have very little say in how the world is run or how resources are distributed.

      I agree with Rhona, increased equality of all kinds, equates to healthier more prosperous societies.
    • Dec 14 2011: Aindreas, I agree with Joanne. Higher education and better jobs are not the only indicators of health and happiness. When these well-educated, well-employed women go home, who do you suppose takes care of the household chores? And, of course, there is the important issue of who designs the systems within which we live, e.g., the workplace, government, legal systems, financial systems, religions. It is vital that women participate on an equal basis in the design and management of all of societies' systems. In the meantime erroneous ideas are embedded into the minds of the young continuing the unjust, unhappy, unhealthy past that causes wars, poverty, ill health and unhappiness throughout the male designed and male dominated world. Let's change that. Our generation can be the one that breaks free of the negative march of our wrongly-brainwashed ancestors and co-creates a joyous world for all humankind. We have the courage to be who we really are. We need not repeat the mistakes of the past. "Life can turn on a dime." Let's just do it so we can hurry up and just have fun.