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If we want to become a green and sustainable economy, don't all of us need to demand better pay?
It sounds counter intuitive doesn't it? Pay people better, for a more sustainable economy? Even in America?
I think so... and here's why. Green technology is expensive... Wow, much shorter explanation than you were expecting wasn't it?
China invested 1.7 trillion dollars in "green technology", a large percentage of that was spent on solar panels... Does anyone in China get paid enough to buy solar panels? Isn't wage stagnation in America directly related to a percieved unfairness, to the idea that we are fat, and lazy, and over paid? Aren't we too broke to buy 20 thousand dollar solar installs for our homes?
Basically... Sustainable electricity and transportation, is going to be a bit more expensive than coal or oil, so don't we have to demand better wages, all around the world, if we every want to have sustainable power?
Isn't paying people less, causing pollution? As opposed to over consumption...
PS... I will admit that many Americans that can afford solar panels didn't buy them, and it is encumbent upon the upper middle class, and the stable middle class to purchase these things as they gain more income... but still, isn't it on everyones list of things to buy? Don't we all want electric cars? Don't we all want free energy from the sun? Is the problem maybe that Americans aren't being paid enough? And... You all just aren't being paid enough... even more so.
Orlando Hawkins 20+
But I get your point. If it is stated that more hybrid cars and solar panels are better for the environment they we should be paid a really good amount of money so we can afford these things. I understand the labor and science that goes into creating such things but it makes me question rather or not these products are really for sustainability or profit.
David Hamilton 50+
Also we have 2 million new immigrants a year, from mostly countries that have 4 or 5 plus kids. Refugees, come here constantly. They're not stupid, they just come from a culture where if you didn't have 5 children, none of them would live. Takes a couple generations to change family patterns... Also they're the Christians saying "go forth and propagate". The evangelicals saying "it's not about the work, it's about the faith". So we're just constantly through public and private charity and partnerships having to provide for people that basically can't or refuse to provide for themselves.
This is why I say however that working class Americans, are, for the most part, the hardest working people on the planet. We carry all of that. You think it's easy to make every culture in the world get along? Think it's easy to not have them starving. What we don't pay in taxes we give to charity. And, we don't want to buy third world labor products anymore, we want to make them ourselves and create more working class jobs, but our corporations won't pay us to make our own stuff anymore, and our government can't force them, in part, because it's a global sociallist economy we now live in, because we couldn't compete with the EU, if we didn't take advantage of China.
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David Hamilton 50+
Sargis B.
David Hamilton 50+
Sargis B.
David Hamilton 50+
Sargis B.
I'm not saying that jobs don't need to exist and we should all be lazy bums doing nothing but when you're spending 8 hours of your life working (much more in 2nd and 3rd world countries) most of the days of the week, if not every day, it better be something that puts value into your life as a human being, puts your talents/skills to good use, so on and so forth, as opposed to dumbing and numbing you down because at that point the only value you're getting out of approximately 2000 hours of working per year is only money. I firmly believe that technology is going to save our species (or destroy it if we allow it to). These mundane jobs are going to and need to disappear for our species to truly discover its potential and start moving forward. We don't need more money or a better economy as everyone keeps asking for. What we need is CHANGE more than ever. Fixing this system is going to give these bastards more chances to manipulate us.
David Hamilton 50+
Unfortunately this same generation didn't learn to be engineers or programmers, so we're not figuring it out... We're operating on the false premise, that it's already taken care of, while abusing slave labor... It's unacceptable. We need to be willing to make our own shit, if we want to consume it... You know what kind of society makes you do that? A capitalist one, where if you don't work, you don't eat.
Sargis B.
This capitalistic system does not allow people to move forward, educate themselves properly, and go beyond so many of the obstacles we face today. I don't agree that the majority thinks that everything is supposed to be or is already taken care of. In fact, I'd say most people are starting to realize just how bad it really is unlike a few years ago otherwise the Occupy movement wouldn't exist, and believe me, they aren't a minority. Their numbers will especially skyrocket if/when the government seriously starts targeting the internet because then all the techies are going to come out. That's when everything will be blown out of proportion.
I agree that we need to shift but to say that only a capitalistic system makes you do that is a fallacy. What it really does is give you a false sense of security by giving you more stuff or giving you the hope that you can get whatever you like if you make more money. But now that the economy is collapsing on its head, our ecology is dying, etc. people are starting to realize just how ridiculous this system really is. That nice feeling it used to create to make everything seem ok is disappearing and once its gone, people will hate this system. They'll have no incentive to use money. And of course there will be jobs in the future that need to be taken care of regardless of what system we incorporate but it doesn't have to be based on a fraud monetary system that gives you 2 coins and takes 4.
David Hamilton 50+
You are aware that Nebraska just passed a harsh immigration law... then it offered 2nd generation immigrants 12 dollars an hour to pick fruit... It didn't get picked. It spoiled on the vine... American's won't do that work anymore... because we're communists. We should be able to collect unemployment for nothing instead of picking crops...
The EU is even worse... they have never made enough food to survive. Sociallism, is what is turning Americans into the lazy assholes Europe has always been. They always import their food from third world countries, we never did, we shipped food all over the world. Capitalsm is the only system that has ever created a country that built more shit than it consumed... We don't do that anymore, that's why no one likes us.
Sargis B.
David Hamilton 50+
Where does slavery still exist legally? All those countries that Westerners are "taking advantage of". All those poor people that enslave their women to marriage or death, ya we're the ones treating them bad. Your entire argument is based on false premises. You're really arguing for a return to slavery, the monetary system is the only thing that seperates freedom from slavery to the state.
When we didn't pay people, it was called slavery... but somehow, now that we do pay people, that's the real slavery, we all shouldn't get paid. It's an argument riddled with internal contradictions. People get paid better, and expect a higher standard of living in capitalist societies, because other societies abuse people. America until very recently didn't import anything compared to what we gave the world for free.
Capitalism and democracy, are feeding all of the third world countries by the way... If we collapse, the first thing to go is people farming for countries that aren't even their own. Why would Americans make any more food than Americans need, unless there was a profit motive? You don't understand the consequences of your arguments, and it's sad how many people would be unified in agreement with you right now, because they don't think critically.
America was rich and fat way before globallization, and way after slavery. You need us, not the other way.
Sargis B.
The corrupt trinity is modern slavery at its best David and if you don't see that, you don't enough about these systems. You think that they are the only solution because you can't imagine what a new system would be like. You're speaking in the exact way that the people who formulated these systems wanted you to. It's because of this way of thinking that we're stuck with these systems in the first place. The monetary system is entirely based on debt... which you can never pay back even if you lived thousands of years. It's a constant cycle of pain. It never ends. That's worse than slavery because at least slaves had a chance of being freed. We don't. And to claim that it's the only system that provides us with an incentive is blind thinking. Our ancestors lived hundreds and thousands of years without bullshit systems like these. Their incentive was progress and life itself while these systems that supposedly provide us with (forced) incentives don't allow progress to happen. It's very heavily moderated. So even our progress is enslaved...
Capitalism and democracy feeding the world? Well that explains why most of the world is starving lol. Which planet do you live on mate? Why would Americans make more food than Americans need without profit in mind? Good point. Look how retarded we've become. We wouldn't help each other without money in mind. That's what these systems have led us to. I understand the consequences of everything I say and that is going on today.
David Hamilton 50+
You just believe that everyone is just desperate to help everyone else... and it's capitalism that's stopping them... that's nonsense. If you want to work for free in a capitalist society... Go ahead, it's called volunteering, people don't do it, because we're animals, we're greedy little monkeys, we want more stuff to impress our significant others, and get laid. You are denying our basic fundamental cognitive make up.
"The corrupt trinity is modern slavery at its best"... Ya, all us poor slaves with Iphones, even in countries where designing an Iphone would be considered an affront against god punishable by death. Capitalism is trying to set the world free, and no one will let it, because you want to hold on to theocratic, and monarchial principles, where we "all serve the common good"... I call that slavery.
Sargis B.
Capitalism helped in certain ways but is destroying our planet in even more ways. You're second paragraph proves my point. To claim that we are genetically designed to be disgusting is foolish and inane. How we're treating each other today in the ways you described is primarily based on the systems that run everything.
David Hamilton 50+
The problem is that most countries don't believe in biology, chemistry, evolution, science, survival of the fittest... they believe abject religious nonsense about how we're all meant to love one another. Everything I say about the nature of human cognition is a proven scientific fact... It's not disgusting, it's reality, and people need to learn to live with it. These aren't opinions. People work hard to aquire things for the people they love, and propagate the species, just like penguins... "Here's a shiny stone, can we have sex yet?"
To believe anything other than that, is to choose to believe a book written a thousand years ago rather than hundreds of years of experimental proof. I don't think you're a terrorist, I think it's tragic how many people agree with you. I think it's tragic that we're all following Marxism down the rabbit hole to misery and slavery... but I don't think you're trying to do it. I think you're a good person, and you believe what you think is best, but the philosophy you have chosen to accept is the one dooming America, Europe, and China to failure. When we collapse, the first people who lose... is North Africa.
It's tragic, but that fruit that spoiled in Nebraska didn't make a spoiled American family starve, it made someone who lives on infertile land starve, we produced enough food for ourselves still, most countries don't.
It's not false prices btw. If anything capitalism lowers the cost of food everywhere in the third world, it would cost a lot more to buy food in a desert if we weren't there. Does that cut into third world farmin jobs... yes, fair argument, but those jobs would raise the cost of food, because the land is less fertile, and the farmers have less access to technology.
David Hamilton 50+
This magic future where Africa, China, and India, all have plenty of resources to give it's people what they want if only the capitalists would get out of the way... Is nonsense. Some people were born in places that have less precious metals, and less farm land, and the western world is trying to distribute those things to those people... but we won't do it for nothing... No one does anything for nothing. We don't necessarily need to charge the third world, and often we don't, often taxes pay the farmers in America, or the Fed does. The farmer feels like he's getting a stable living out of feeding all those people though, and he should. He shouldn't be forced to farm, and expect nothing.
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David Hamilton 50+
I talk about America so much, because it's the only rich country that has ever been both capitalist and an exporter. There is over a 100 year period of time (which does not include the last 30 years), in which America was actually the great benefactor of the world. We actually fed the hungry. I admit, now we mostly talk about it, and we're resting on our laurels, but my point is that no sociallist, monarchy, dictatorial, or theocratic state ever did that.
The Romans did it for awhile, though in a much more archaic form, before devolving into an tyranical empire. The British did it for awhile, before becoming an incredibly oppressive empire itself... Finally, America did it for awhile... and now it is devolving into an empirical sociallist state, that is oppressing people. All three started as democratic capitalism, and devolved into an empire of sociallism. I imagine theres a few similar naratives of German history, though we're actually taught very little about German history here in the US, and honestly, it's history has been destroyed and burned a few times.
I am America centered because I live here, and I've visited 15 or so other countries, I speak from experience... I don't think we're better than anyone, as people. There's good and bad people all over the world, I think democratic capitalism, a free market, put in check by educated consumers, and informed legal decisions... Is the best working model people have yet come to for governance.
David Hamilton 50+
Maybe you're not a Marxist, maybe you're not a theocrat... but those camps have 2 billion people in them. Democratic capitalism has two billion people in it's camp. Of the 3 ideas, it has proven superior... Please link to fully functional thought out model for something we could switch to.
That's the problem my homeland, America has, we don't like our model, we want to fix it, but all the other working models, that have support are disgusting, and require slavery to the state... Please inform me to a new model, but until you can please don't attack the best system we have.
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except of course, every other form that humanity has ever tried." Winston Churchill
Capitalism is the worst form of economic governance, except of course, every other form that humanity has ever tried.
Gerald O'brian 50+
David Hamilton 50+
Also, owning a car is a necessity in America because the nearest job is 30 miles away from where you can afford to live. People always forget that with America's wealthiest nation status, comes the worst distribution of wealth in the first world.
David Hamilton 50+
Gerald O'brian 50+
If the guy building solar panels is asking for a higher wage also, how is this a rationnal solution?
Rather, I think more money should be invested in scientific research, since only knowledge can make something cheaper.
David Hamilton 50+
I'd just like to ask... What kind of standard of living do two people working 120 hours a week deserve? Don't they deserve better then they're getting? There was a time when a white man, could earn enough to support a 4 person family on 40-60 hours a week, without importing all their shit... Why does no one have that now?
I really think this relates to something I discussed earlier. I think in the 1980's a flip switched in liberal America, and instead of raising everyone to the standard of living of a white man, through education, small business loans, and wage inflation... we instead decided "White men are too rich, even if they work in a factory 60 hours a week, so we need to lower their standard of living to make it fair"
It's a race to bottom mentallity, rather than a race to the top, and I can't help but feel that after 60 years of automation, and technology, there is no excuse for every working person man or woman, no matter what color or nationallity they are... to not be able to support a family, in the same way, on one income. Maybe I'm just naive. It seems absurd though, we should all be able to afford these things if we work hard.
Gerald O'brian 50+
Sadly I don't know enough about life in the USA. Are you serious when you say a wage cannot support a family with 4 kids?
I mean, is it that such a poor family cannot afford vacations, wide TV screens or ipads, like everybody else. Or is it that such a family cannot pay for food and has no access to healthcare?
If it's the latter, then your government is doing a bad job. And indeed, something should be done about it. This is off topic, but I'd appreciate it if you enlighted me about America's poor people, what they can and cannot afford.
David Hamilton 50+
There are lots of working poor people, who put in 50-60 hour weeks, and don't have health insurance. Those same people, also will have an I phone, or a big screen TV... Because they bought one at Wal Mart for 600 dollars, and health insurance would cost them 300 dollars a month. So they have these cool toys, but they can't come close to affording health insurance.
At the same time, the emergency room treats these people, all mostly for free. Because they give the family a 5000 dollar bill, but the family can't pay, so they just don't pay. For the rest of their life they get phone calls from debt collection agents. The hospital then has to screw other patients, and charge them more money, to cover the loss to working poor people. So The Hypocratic Oath, basically gives us national health care, but it keeps our poor people constantly in debt.
Also, working conditions in Europe are way better than America, and they always have been. They get 5 weeks paid vacation, we get 0 mandated, but most people negotiate 2. They have a way higher minimum wage then us. They have national health insurance, and the EU imports just as much cheap junk from China, and other third world countries as us, but because we feel guilty about it, we've kind of let ourselves be labeled the fat rich people. Europe has always been aristocratic, sociallist, empirical, and lazy, so they don't really mind, and there media is happy to lampoon us as the greedy ones.
We used to work even harder, and not import anything, we used to be self sufficient, so we feel guilty, they never have been, so they don't. The narratives in the world nowadays are really fascinating.
Pocahontas Water
David Hamilton 50+
I don't think many people reallize there are a lot of spoiled rich people in America, but at least half of the people, even in the richest neighborhoods, have nice toys, because they're crazy hard workers. The question is do hard workers deserve that many crazy toys, or were we a bit too greedy? I think a little bit of both, but I really think in a "faith" based economy, we can print and redistribute our way into everyone having an awesome standard of living, as long as we still make people work hard for what they earn... could be naive though, i admit it.
Orlando Hawkins 20+
life in the U.S. is not as grand as you think it is. I mean it does have its benefits and of course its better to live here than most other places (like Africa, India, etc) but its not paradise as many claim it to be.
There really is not much to add more than what David stated. It also depends on where you live as well. I'm 22 and I support myself but man do I have to work my butt off. I honestly do not have time for things and I'm still finishing up school. But this is because I live in California. If you live in states like Texas, Louisiana, New Mexico or pretty much any place not named (New York, California, Florida, etc) you can actually do pretty good for yourself financially. Most of the southern states as well as the Midwest usually have jobs. I will say though, if you are an individual that likes to go to the beach, go to the mountains and like to be outdoors and have fun, living in the south or Midwest is not the place for you to be.
Now in regards to the government and corporations there is a lot of corruption that goes on but its all systematic and behind closed doors and is usually justified by politics and law. the U.S. is built upon giving people their individual liberties and individual rights and they know that if they were to be open with their corruption, the American people would not tolerate such actions.
Plus we focus too much on sports stars, movie stars, singers, etc...I'd rather be in Canada if you ask me
Gerald O'brian 50+
In France, about half of your salary is taxed, and every good you buy is 20% taxed. It's just taken away from you, and I think this is right.
Your portrait of the American poor show that humans waste their wealth on social status, instead of comfort or security. This is just how we've evolved our relationship to wealth. In a factory parking lot, you can't always tell which car belongs to the boss anymore... because some of the poor blokes there happily get in debt to afford a higher status vehicle.
This should be known about human nature, and governments that expect people to invest into health and security are wrong. Healthcare should be for paid for by the government, so should retirement and education.
So this changes the content of our debate. I don't think American citizens should be paid more, since they'd only buy more crap to impress neighbours. Instead, the US government should secure a higher standard of living for them... AND should pay for research in green technology.
David Hamilton 50+
Capitalism is the solution to those problems though, those idiots are supposed to be miserable and fail... and we're not letting it happen anymore. That's why we're often frustrated by the sociallism capitalism debate. We want sociallized healthcare... We don't want sociallized labor conditions, we carry the lazy, and stupid people enough. We don't want more 30,000 dollar cars in warehouse parking lots. We want people to get fired way more often. We want more solar panels, but we still like the idea of being able to buy them ourselves, because most of the people would if they had the couple thousand to put down on the install
Still it does come down to being paid more in the end though... because currently, being green, is way more expensive than having health insurance, AND more expensive than the stupid trinkets we buy... So both the EU, and America, still to this day, still need laboring people who work 2 and 3 jobs especially, to have a more capitalist ladder to be able to buy that kind of technology, because those people want it. Research is good too of course, I'm always a fan of increasing research budgets.
I'm just saying that China's state run green tech bid, is reliant on Europeans and Americans having money to buy green tech, meanwhile us normallizing trade with China is making our laborers stagnate... So they can't afford it. And our rich, basically want the world to burn... At least that's what it seems like : p
Gerald O'brian 50+
I believe in capitalism as well, despite appearances. The socialism I know results in a slow-motion market and it was almost impossible for me to find a job while I was a student. It wasn't absolutely necessary either, this is why, probably. The government paid for half my rent, the university fee, and I had a small "salary" of 220 euros each month. This barely pays for the rest of the rent and food. But it's enough and it allows anyone to afford higher education. Not that diplomas favour employment (but that's another story).
With retrospect, I would trade my 220 salary for a real 220 euro salary doing a real job, and learning about the world, a few hours a week. Education should remain free of course.
David Hamilton 50+
I want to move towards access to education for all, but similar to the problem you're having Sweden is having a problem with "professional students"... People who just stay in university forever, and never want to get a job. They study art, history, philosophy... It's nice, but basically workers are getting taxed so they can be aristocrats, lol.
I would suggest my only problem with the EU narrative nowadays is that Americans tend to get labeled as "too lazy to do some jobs"... and I just think that's even more true in places where university education is free... Because once you graduate with a masters... You don't want to go farm, or work in a factory for awhile. I think both of our worlds need to take responsibillity for the fact that some of us should be making clothes, and furniture, and computers again.
I think there's a happy medium somewhere. I mention free internet education that gets you trainee jobs on here a few times. It's not as good as real college, but it shows you learned the basic principles of engineering, biology, etc., so you can use it to assist someone paid well for a few years, and doing the grunt work, but that work validates the degree and fills in your blanks.
I do think we need to be telling people in China and everywhere else there's a big trade imbalance though... "No we don't need to get paid less... Our corporations need to pay you better, and we need to buy the next wave of awesome technology, all together".
Salim Solaiman 50+
Just curious , from where that extra money will come ?
Will not than again push the price up of green technology (the marketer there keeps eye on affordability as well before fixing price I guess)?
Better solution seems to me to conrol individual self buying spree (just thinking of huge buying spree despite of current economic situation on this black Friday, how many of those buying are real necessity , how many are instinct ?) ......
Looking for more durable products than current disposable junks in different category can be another option to rduce throwing waste in environment.....
David Hamilton 50+
Communist, and sociallist countries are investing in technology that their people could never afford... in the hopes that they can sell us goods that we can no longer afford here in America. This is the inherent problem with supply side economics, and state planned economy... They just don't think about these things until it's too late.
Black Friday, may have been a waste, but I assure you working people weren't spending enough money to buy solar panels on it either. Something a lot of people tend to forget about America because of its "wealth and greed" status in the world is that 70% of families here work 80-100 hours per week and are constantly miserable, with no time for their family, and at best a couple hundred bucks to spend putting a smile on there kids face. We traded happiness for greed, but no one likes to remind themselves of that when looking at our GDP. We make stupid short term decisions, like Christmas overspending, drug addiction, and alcoholism... mostly because they keep housing so expensive here that we only get a few dollars a week in disposable income, so alcohol and marijuana are cheap fun.
Again... There's no excuse for the upper middle class in affluent American neighborhoods, to have not bought solar panels, and I'm not defending that. Lots of people bought there kids a car, or bought a yacht. As for the solution to the money supply problem... print it and hire people building stuff. If we just spent 2 trillion dollars building solar panels in America, we would have simultaneously created a few hundred thousand jobs that could have bought the panels. China probably created a million jobs, but can't buy them.
David Hamilton 50+
Increasing the price of wages, doesn't increase the price of the raw material, so if you give people more money for labor, the cost of goods will go up less then their purchasing power.
Salim Solaiman 50+
I am with you about the point of distribution of wealth which is in line with Pareto principle, 20/80 rule. when smaller percentage of population in an economy controls the majority of wealth then those problems you mentioned seems inherent.
Increasing wage seems a smaller tactics of doing that. About out sourcing , guess job issue may push government think differently sooner or later if they really care for vote even not people.
However for new innovation, adoption process seldom is linked with purchasing power. There are lot more psycho-social factors linked. Think of the computer, when it was invented and when it entered in almost every home in developed economy if not everywhere.......
Green technology still at it's infancy , unless people are really aware and compassionate about environment or society very few will spend extra dollar to buy it that's what I feel.
David Hamilton 50+
Rich people don't care about that, middle class, and poor people care about that. If they had access to loans, that were equal to their energy bill... and at the end of the loan, they owned panels, and had broken even... Lots of middle class people could get into that, but our credit, and buying power dropped dramatically over the last few years.
Unlike with almost everything else, cell phones, cars, computers, iphones... Solar panels, will never be "cool", and "sexy". They're not status symbols. They should be, but it's not working, wealthy people aren't leading the way, so we may need to raise the standard of living in the middle if we really want to blow things up. It would be easier if we could just get Kim Kardashian to lay naked across some solar panels... but, alas it seems like this is the only product people won't trade their self respect to sell : p
Salim Solaiman 50+
Think of consumers of cell phone how many of them uses all the option it has before discarding it buy the new model. It becam so disposable. In software , there was nothing much called sexiness but many of were made sexy , or convenience or swiftness or security that's why some sell more than others.
Think of organic food or present trend ayurvatic cosmetics, how marketer of those industries made them symbol prestige , image etc etc
Solar panel might need that kind of marketing effort though I am not an expert of that industry. Otherwise only increasing affordabilty by offering more money in the hand of consumer will not sell it as you gave the example of affluent calfornians.....
Consumer actually don't buy the physical product itself rather go for intangible value proposition that it offers......
Other can work here is bringing regultion to make people bound to buy solar panel. In my country there is a boom in real estate industry but on the other hand enegry sector is struggling. Instead of one unit house they have to supply electricity to 20 apartments in same place which replaced a sigle unit house... while electricity production has gone down. So government has made a regulation (good or bad can't say) to get an electricity connection apartment complex has to prove it will generate own electiricity through solar panel..... sales of solar panel went up then despite of it's high price.
David Hamilton 50+
Also... I just have to say... There's something cool and sexy about being able to make a phone call anywhere in the world, just intrinsically. We forget that nowadays, but it really was awesome, even when they were bricks, you don't need advertising for wireless communication... imho.