A conversation on TED.com: Since oxytocin can influence trust, is it possible to use it for manipulation? Can "the moral molecule" be used for immoral purposes?

Antoniu Gugu
Bucharest
Romania

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Since oxytocin can influence trust, is it possible to use it for manipulation? Can "the moral molecule" be used for immoral purposes?

For example, is there any way in which politicians could influence the trust of their audiences, or companies influence the trust of their clients, or religious institutions influence the trust of their followers with the help of oxytocin?
Can "the moral molecule" be used for immoral purposes?

Related Talks:

Paul Zak: Trust, morality -- and oxytocin

Topics: biological determinsim manipulation morality oxytocin trust

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Victoria Samra 10+
- 0
Nov 10 2011: What about frankincense, which was found out to have mood-enhancing properties when used as burnt incense? Or music that encourages theta-wave synchronization? Both are used in cults (specifically, I mean Eastern Rite Orthodox church) but all kinds of groups, like Meijer said, have techniques. What about Peyote? What about emotional abuse? They really don't need oxytocin to reel you in. This kind of manipulation isn't such a bad thing, either. You don't have to give in if you don't want to, and a lot of people like the structure that groups provide, and they like how group rules grease the skids of society. Like the guy said here: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind.html
- Chestner D.
  - 0
  Nov 11 2011: You have to be joking. The structure that group provides without clandestinely programming their minds is called a support group. That is the perfectly acceptable way to boost Oxytocin levels.
  
  These techniques you mention that cults use, including Oxytocin induced Alpha states of existence, "Love bombing" induced Oxytocin, group ritual imitation ( mirror neuron ) induced Oxytocin induced "viral memes" are turning people into malleable entities being used to further the agendas of the psychopath leaders. They end up ruining their lives in this slavery.
  
  The fact that other mechanisms exist to drag people's brains to the Alpha or Theta suggestible state of mind does not justify an iota this other yet unknown, but obviously being unknowingly abused for hundreds of years chemical, now with people willingly ingesting it to becoming more loving human beings.
  
  It is the worst kind of crime you can commit on a human.
  
  You're not taking his permission to program him into someone he is not. It's like spiking someone's drink every day for the rest of their lives.
  
  And now they want to bring it into the mainstream!! Can you imagine how the propaganda machines and the Church are salivating over this? If this is allowed an uptake the levels of anti-depressants in the US, then you have an entire people with their judgments messed with open to all sorts of fanatic suggestions. This talk is the beginning of the slow release of the idea into the minds of the society.
  
  A theta subliminal programming stunt is easier to detect and ban than this. This is pure evil.
Edward Arroyo
- 0
Nov 9 2011: One of my dearest friends, Debby Winsberg, committed suicide a few days ago, only two weeks after a failed attempt at that. I had been with her for over two years as struggled to deal with having had an affair with a married man.

Apart from the fact that she had been suffering from loneliness and abandonment, she was beautiful inside and out, cheerful, and brought many friends together. We lost touch for twenty years before I got a call from her, telling me how
troubled she was about her situation. She was best friends with her lover's wife and they were all part of a tightly knit group.

I guess the reason for my sharing this is that during the time with her therapists, pharmaceutical recipes, psychiatrists,
and being by her side for countless hours, she shared with me her experience with this man who, despite telling her he could not leave his wife, continued to woo her with all the fantasies one could imagine about how much he loved her and wanted to... build her a kingdom, run away, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam, over and over again.

The important point to all this is that in researching the various drugs she was prescribed (lexipro, selecsa, ativan, etc.) for letting her know their purpose and side-effects, I came across oxytocin and its relation to bonding, trust, and
sex. Well, this is how his whispering in her ear sealed the deal.

When she decided to end the affair, she began exhibiting symptoms that escalated to the point of severe addiction withdrawal. This was before she began taking any drugs. She was an ultra health-conscious person, never drank, smoked, or indulged in any recreational drugs. So, after starting psychotropic drugs, she became confused and afraid of what chemical or hormonal-balancing agents she needed. I explained to her how her lover had seduced her with words and physical (manipulation), using sex to produce the hormonal release of (among others) oxytocin for convincing her of his 'true' intention. He was a thief.
- Loretta Wollering
  - 0
  Nov 16 2011: Wow - I just searched this person, because I got word from someone else about a tai chi teacher killing themselves in CA. I have a professional tai chi school, and when I read the news release, it brought tears to my eyes. I am so sorry for Ms. Winsberg killing herself. It is very likely that all the antidepressants she was on was wreaking havoc with mer mind and oxytocin imbalance. I feel awful to hear about this. It's hard enough trying to survive teaching tai chi - an art that very few people can appreciate and for which you can be employed at sub-par living wages - but that on top of all her other stress. How awful. My heart goes out to you, her family & friends, and her spirit. Sorry so off-topic, I just saw this while searching in google about what happened to her, as a fellow tai chi instructor...
  - Edward Arroyo
    
    0
    Nov 16 2011: Hello Loretta,
    
    I am moved by your reply. Debby was a kind and loving soul. I will miss her until we meet again.
    
    I don't know if this is appropriate, but she helped me do this video piece for a 'floatation tank center' I
    am working on and it turns out to be a tribute to Debby (for me). Besides teaching tai chi, she was an artist, musician, lyricist, and voice-over artist. I asked her to 'breathe for me' and record it so I could put it at the second half of this video - a video that asks, "When was the last time you did Nothing?" She also says a line for me at the end of the 'visual' portion of my video.
    
    The haunting thing about this video is that I kinda finished it by rendering it for the last time, but it ran 1minute longer than originaly meant. I had 1 minute of black.
    
    I said to myself, 'This actually is good. For, while floating, you are in a dark space' ...and float in a water solution that is 10 inches deep, with 800 lbs. of epsom salt, and kept at skin temperature. I actually liked that idea of darkness, for that is the empirical experience (the video that precedes this is just 'one person's imagined experience while in the tank). So, I hurried to quickly bring together an extension of this 'altered experience' by simply adding a mashed up confluence of music. However, I wanted the music to have a certain amount of dissonance, so I came up with this ending that I finished at 3 AM, the morning she went out to take her life. I didn't find out about Debby until the next morning.
    
    I would like to share it with you if you are willing.
    
    If so, the link is: http://web.me.com/ooom2/eggco
    
    USER NAME: eggco1
    
    PASSWORD: xxeggco1xx
    
    If you choose watch, please set aside 5 minutes of quiet time. The sound is very important and the volume is rather low, so you are encouraged to turn up the volume.
    
    I would love to hear your comments.
    
    Peace and Harmony,
    
    Ed Arroyo
Gabryelle Wolosik
- 0
Nov 9 2011: Ever meet someone with a highly manipulative romantic partner? You can see them using affection to alter their decisions and gain trust when it isn't warranted.

Anything in the hands of an immoral person can be abused.
Jah Sun
- 0
Nov 6 2011: Coincidentally, I just posted a comment on the Paul Zak talk earlier today with this same basic question... or rather more of a tongue in cheek recognition that if it can be done, it probably will be.

Like some others have said already, the stimulation of our natural oxytocin seems to be par for the course in sales, grifting, advertising and graft.

I am curious as to how much more effective externally administered oxytocin would be in comparison to a warm hug, a smile, or a solid handshake. A cute baby obviously stimulates this. Probably also a cute dog. Women seem to naturally trust the sketchiest of guys in a park if they are walking a cute dog...
- Gabryelle Wolosik
  - 0
  Nov 9 2011: That's a pretty broad stroke assumption. I never met a woman who would trust a creepy guy because his dog was cute. Maybe it's a function of big city living, but sketchy is sketchy to everyone I know!
  - Jah Sun
    
    0
    Nov 10 2011: I said seem to... and sketchy is in the eyes of the beholder I suppose.
    
    Rephrase that last bit to: women seem to talk to guys they would otherwise ignore if the guy has a cute dog or child with him. It seems to reduce the sketch factor by a large degree... Paul Zak indicated that seeing a cute baby or animal stimulates the production of Oxytocin.
    
    I suppose the idea is that people don't find you as sketchy if you can get their empathy hormones working.
Guillermo Uriarte
- +3
Nov 6 2011: Anything can be used for immoral purposes within an identified moral system. If morality is to exist, immorality must also exist in order to manifest a contrast which is used in defining the limitations of what a "moral" act is.
Chestner D.
- +2
Nov 5 2011: It's already being used for immoral purposes. It's being sold/endorsed by the speaker himself on merchant websites. Its a product which says trust me, pay me to manipulate your trust, then you'll surely trust me and keep paying me.

They can even give the first shipment free by that logic.

Also I'm putting forward the notion that naturally induced Oxytocin is the primary catalyst behind reprogramming of minds by cults and cult-like organisations already - http://www.ted.com/conversations/6917/are_cults_abusing_oxytocin_is.html

Now that people are allowed to dispense Oxytocin without prescription to the unsuspecting general public, it's not the potential to, but an escalation of the manipulation at an even larger scale.
- Gabryelle Wolosik
  - 0
  Nov 9 2011: Simply selling it doesn't necessarily mean it's being used for immoral purposes, but it does open up the possibility. From my reading it seems to be used in marriage counseling to get people to talk to each other honestly (as is ecstasy). It's used to help with depression, social anxiety and impotence.
  
  Drugs aren't always the best cure for a person's issues - however, when you're in the shoes of the suffering and you've been working hard at it a long time, who is an outside to say it's the wrong choice?
  - Chestner D.
    
    0
    Nov 10 2011: That makes sense for the prescription use of the product.
    
    Is the non-presription sale of the product as a "become more trusting" or "become more generous" unethical? If the person consumes it and becomes more trusting, with an impaired sense of judgment then will he be more susceptible to the sales pitch of the product saying that it is the greatest thing on earth?
    
    Is that not then the definition of a addictive drug? Is this not then the sale of an addictive drug?
    
    How about the sale of it as "get people to trust you drug" or "get people to love you drug"?
    
    Is not the person who buys the product for the sole purpose of manipulating the judgment of other people committing an highly unethical act?
    
    What if it's put in the church snacks before sermon or donation?
    
    Shouldn't these findings be the basis to ban the non-prescription product rather than sell it?
Kenji Gerhardt
- 0
Nov 5 2011: He talked about the classic con in which the thieves use oxytocin to scam the store clerk. Morality is simply the way in which we guide our actions; different morals can produce a situation in which one person does something morally right for them, but morally wrong for another. Don't assume the world must operate according to your beliefs.
Mark Meijer 100+
- 0
Host Associate

Nov 5 2011: Politicians, companies and religious institutions already manipulate the trust of their audiences, using such time-tested devices as PR, marketing, and church service (mosque, synagogue, etc). See also propaganda.
Danny Province
- 0
Nov 5 2011: If you've ever had someone you don't agree with insist on shaking your hand, that is exactly what happened. Personal contact triggers production of oxytocin, which contributes to feelings of personal investment. Some people who viciously hate someone walk away from a first meeting shocked at how they feel after-the-fact. The oxytocin plays a role in that.