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What is the nature of consciousness? Is consciousness merely a by-product of the physical brain?
Consciousness is perhaps the greatest mystery ever to be presented to mankind. My question is: What is the nature of consciousness? How can the materialistic world view of mankind explain the phenomenon of consciousness. By its nature, which is of a totally immaterial and invisible, with its inner activity of thinking, also a totally invisible activity, which the whole of the scientific world view rests upon..."Thinking". What is thinking if not a non-physical super-sensible invisible, immaterial reality. For the scientific world view to understand itself, it must examine the nature of thinking. And in doing so, the "religious" world view will be able to find something to hang onto.Science and religion can meet on this question. Because it is here where they both fall short. Science cannot explain consciousness out of the materialistic world view. Religion cannot explain evolutionary principles in nature without adapting the scientific world view. The two are locked in an unending battle. Can it be that thinking is,in fact, the "spiritual activity of man"
daniel hehir 20+
I guess this is my last good-bye
...cause if I try to write any more now..
I'd have to squeeze it in edgewise ...
.... Best wishes to you all ;-)
Tim Colgan 50+
... that "merely" was a good means of provoking response. Thanks.
Colleen Steen 500+
I enjoy your two new poems. Thanks for sharing your writing talent, and for facilitating this interesting discussion:>)
Colleen
Minh Do
daniel hehir 20+
on this thread
but don't really have the time
the "continuation of consciousness"
in poesy and rhyme
Is anyone out there interested
to start a bran new thread..?
on this endless topic ... consciousness
or is the whole thing "dead"
should we start another
bran new conversation
or does it only contribute
to a deep inner frustration
Has anyone there any more to say..
enemy or friend
or has our topic fizzled out
and reached the final end..?
and If we do continue
is there anyone out there
who has some new perspectives
that they might like to share ?
My fingers they are getting tired
I've worn them to the bone
My thoughts are getting mired
and I feel myself alone...
Is there anyone else who also feels this way?
confusion .... distress...
have we gotten any closer to this thing called
consciousness ?
To continue might be error
but to end would be so sad
...and thanks again to everyone
for the sessions we have had...
but I hope to meet you all again
someplace... somewhere ... sometime...
In "consciousness" we meet as friends
in reason and in rhyme ...
So until then.....I wish you well
take heed of stormy weather
and so I say my last farewell
Its been fun to be "conscious".... together..
Colleen Steen 500+
It's been fun to be conscious...together:>)
Mind S 30+
Colleen Steen 500+
Tim Colgan 50+
The Brain: The Mystery of Consciousness
http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1580394,00.html
Two quotes to entice you:
"Consciousness does not reside in an ethereal soul that uses the brain like a PDA; consciousness is the activity of the brain."
"I would argue that nothing gives life more purpose than the realization that every moment of consciousness is a precious and fragile gift."
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daniel hehir 20+
Dear Kathy.....WOW !
Why in the world have you been so quite out there when you have so much to say !?
daniel hehir 20+
I wrote a little comment to Mind S a little further up on the thread that you might find interesting. I speak about the illness epilepsy. I present a picture of the spiritual nature of this imbalance in the human soul / physical condition of epilepsy. This may give another perspective in the understanding of the human nature of consciousness on a more practical level of things than what we have focused mostly on these past days .. NDE. When we can understand the soul /physical relationship in this way, then can we perhaps begin to treat this imbalance without simply resorting to a chemical solution that often carry unseen consequences for the pasient that don't pop later on in the treatment. The chemical solution, in most cases, often only covers up the symptoms of an illness and never gets to the source. I hope you find it interesting. Just one day left for any responses. Many other sickness can be seen in this same light... or should I say with the same perspective of the human being..
Comment deleted
daniel hehir 20+
Ed Schulte 50+
I trust this finds you and yours well.
....and now that this thread is winding down, it is time to reflect back on your Idea,
" What is the nature of consciousness"
And ask, is it not more appropriate to ask ……..
"Who(or what is the “thinker”) asking the question,"What is the nature of consciousness?" ...and then, it becomes, ‘what is the Nature of the questioner/ “thinker”??’ :-)
Its be fun…whatever the answers ….after all, they can only be relevant to the experience of the one asking the question.
....a poem to wave to....there is a clear reflection of item 3) (RofT) in it.
Sleeping and Waking
All night someone is trying to tell you something.
The voice is a harbor, pulling you from underneath.
Where am I, you say, what's this and who are you?
The voice washes you up on the shore of your life.
You never knew there was land here.
In the morning you are wakened by gulls.
Flapping at the window, they want you to feed them.
Your eyes blink, your own hands are pulling you back.
All day you break bread into small pieces,
become the tide covering your straight clear tracks.
~Naomi Shihab Nye
daniel hehir 20+
On second reading.... all I can say is ...amazing poem !!
Ed Schulte 50+
Indeed!! And it is and a good one to say “thanks!!” for bravely putting up with the TED format and encouraging 1) Dialog or the weaker method 2) Debate on a subject of this nature. It is of note that another person did similar …(an even more brave/direct in his approach), using the most Direct approach possible. He asked “What is Love”. (The number of TED responses to date …’zero’!!)
A closing off and good bye note here....
The essence behind the poem is the poe’s point out that every Human returns to their True Consciousness (**Exosomatosis**) during each cycle through deep sleep, and of course , each mortal birth/death cycle. ( oh and yes oh yes!!! each “petite mort” Kathy ..naughty naughty :-)) …and it is every Human's destiny to become fully aware of that "True Consciousness" and live it ALL the time. We then choose, while “dwelling” in that completeness which specific plane of consciousness best suits ones particular plane of “will” activity.
** A Greek word equivalent of the English expression "out of body". We know of a first (from the material body), a second (from the psychical body) and a third (from the noetical body) exosomatosis. We all leave our bodies each night, during sleep, and travel to other planes subconsciously. The aim, however, is to live self-consciously while out of our bodies.
daniel hehir 20+
I wrote a little poem and dedicated it to you...! .... a little further down the line..
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daniel hehir 20+
perhaps "The continuation of consciousness...?"
Great poem too !
Mind S 30+
Would you please take a note of the following two articles?
http://www.shaktitechnology.com/obe.htm
http://www.shaktitechnology.com/rebirth.htm
Colleen Steen 500+
Good articles...thanks:>) They reinforce the information I have learned with several years of research/study.
They basically say the same things I've been saying throughout this comment thread. NDE can be explaiined spiritually, AND scientifically. I don't give the "shakti project" too much credability, since it was "based on one epilipsy patient's vision". That doesn't seem very scientific to me, although again, the information reinforces what I've been saying: NDEs are a " natural organic function of the brain...part of the human death process...electrical activity, which can recruit sets of pathways that otherwise would function in rare states of consciousness".
The other article is interesting too and reinforces what I've been saying: "Our responses to looking at how we behaved while in specific states during our lives reinforces our behaviors and "tags" them for repetition or avoidence in future lives". I re-evaluate my life all the time, with various levels of consciousness. It is, as the article states, a "natural, organic function of the brain". When we are aware of that information, we can evaluate on many different levels of consciousness:>)
Thanks for providing the articles, which confirm/reinforce what I've been expressing:>)
daniel hehir 20+
There is a precise reference to your comment on the "red shoe" at the top of the page on the shaktitechnology link you set out.. so you can go directly to those sources and find the story there.... if you will.
As this many faceted topic boils down to an end, I see that you are onto something that deserves a comment. Now Colleen has accused me of trying to get others to see things the way I myself see things.. I guess that accusation carries some truth to it. But beside that Mind S. let me point out a certain phenomenon that might of interest you. Now I am trying hard not to convince you of anything... I'm just pointing to a certain phenomenon that we all have experienced.
Are you ready.?
This thing we call epilepsy... means "to cease upon" ..greek epi. "above" The greeks were pretty sharp cookies..
As I said, we have all experienced this little phenomenon. When you are in bed and falling off to sleep. Your mind runs back over the happenings of the day. You don't have any specific thought in mind when suddenly you feel your foot slipping on the ice and your whole body jumps.. Have you ever experienced this ? Or perhaps your a mountain climber and you have a feeling of your foot slipping on a rock and you "feel like" you nearly fall down... you catch your self from falling... (by the way epilepsy is also called the falling sickness)
Now this is actually a little "seizure" that you had in your bed... the losing of balance or the feeling of a fall that "brings on" this slamming effect... this is actually your "soul body" slamming into the physical and life body that are still lying in the bed. The epileptic seizure is no different than this... one could say the epileptic person is sort of caught in this little "slamming situation" for a little longer length of time. This "soul condition" of the epileptic is phenomenologically the same as when you experience this "catching yourself" when feel like you are going to fall just as you are falling asleep..
Sietse Sterrenburg 10+
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2011/what-is-consciousness/
daniel hehir 20+
Ulterior motive...? what ...? People like Colleen convince me even more of the fact that there is a life after death... I wouldn't think Colleen and the thousands of others who have had NDE are simply lying... But that is by no means my only reason for a believing in the spiritual world or life after death. The NDE's are just amazing personal experiences that reconfirm my belief... as it is also only a belief of yours isn't it that you say there is no life after death... or do you have proof of it....? You answer with the same coin again that the burden of proof is upon the people who claim to its reality.... and all the proof in the world wont convince you anyway... but there is a glimmering hope in the fact that you admit you "could be wrong"..
Did you read the story about the red tennis shoe ? How can you then explain this as being anything else than the spirit ascending out of the body in a NDE... can you offer any explanation or are you saying that I (and Colleen) are simply making this up ? How can this be so I ask?
Tim Colgan 50+
And no, I'm not convinced of an afterlife by the story of a red shoe on the roof.
daniel hehir 20+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu1ErDeQ0Zw&feature=related
daniel hehir 20+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jt3XBAK-v4&feature=related
daniel hehir 20+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3BTtii4fIY&NR=1
daniel hehir 20+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIawFI3-tz4&feature=related
daniel hehir 20+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rFW2lc3344&feature=related
daniel hehir 20+
Please don't try to tell me that this blind woman is "pretending" or making up this story, or the sky diver or the athiest ...
daniel hehir 20+
Tim Colgan 50+
Tim Colgan 50+
daniel hehir 20+
Tim Colgan 50+
Colleen Steen 500+
Did you start this discussion to honestly ponder other people's perception of "what is the nature of consciousness"? Or did you start it as a platform for your own beliefs?
daniel hehir 20+
Well, if I had no beliefs or meaning about this subject than I don't suppose that I would have started this conversation at all... no... I think this is perhaps one of the most significant questions that a person can ask him or her self in this "school of life".. Everyone should at least try to establish a platform regarding this question... don't you agree? It is obviously a conversation that engages people and that's important. I guess that I let myself be so provoked by Richard Dawkins's lecture on Militant Atheism her on TED that I couldn't let his views of what the human being really is go unchecked. It may be true that the animal kingdom has an evolution that is without freedom... but mankind has the freedom to think what he will be it true or be it false... Freedom is something that is squeezed out of the picture in a strictly evolutionistic understanding of mankind without the elements of self-consciousness taken into account. It is our self-consciousness that gives us the "possibility" to be free. Perhaps it was an un-free action of me to start this conversation ... being that I was so "driven" by RD lecture.
But still the same, I had no idea where this conversation would lead to when I started it. The fact that I have "been forced" (un-free again) to present my own ideas from my own platform developed along the lines of the conversation itself. Regardless, this conversation wouldn't have been so engaging had I not presented my own platform, had it not? I hope I didn't break any rules of the TED site here but I admit my "platform" is clear.. and furthermore, we all must be open with each other and say what we mean to say. I'm not here to agree with everyone. I have pondered a lot over other peoples perception of consciousness.. of that you can be sure... and many have had enormously valuable contributions. But that still doesn't oblige me to agree with everyone.... sometimes it may perhaps appear like I take the stand of "Militant Spiritualism"
Colleen Steen 500+
You ask if I agree that "everyone should at least try to establish a platform regarding this question". That is one idea on which we differ. I don't believe in telling another human being what he/she "should" do. I believe in encouraging and supporting others through their journey, and I welcome and encourage the exploration people do in themselves. To tell others what they "should" do is not so useful. As you've seen on this thread, people will balk at the idea of being told what they "should" do...understandably:>)
We do, as you say, have the freedom to think, and everyone thinks differently. It feels like you are being really insistant that people think the same as you do. Why is that important to you? Starting the discussion was a good thing on your part because it does engage people. That's why I asked the question...do you honestly want to engage people with their own thoughts and feelings, or did you start it to only convince others that your way is right?
You see, I could sense that you were/are "driven" as you say. You have not "been forced" to present your own ideas my dear one, you have chosen to do so. Don' give up your freedom of choice:>) Honestly dear Daniel, it might have been more engaging if you had not been "driven" to present your own platform. You did not break any rules, and there is a better way to engage people, in my perception. Simply to be open to new information. Yes, it does appear like you are taking the stand of "Militant Spiritualism" and if that is working for you then carry on:>) If not, there are other choices.
daniel hehir 20+
It all boils down to logic. If you can present a logical argument for your opinion that says the spiritual in man does not exist ... then I could reevaluate my thinking. But there has not come any logical arguments that appose my viewpoint that there exists a higher element in man.. self-consciousness.. that which I choose to call spirit is a factor in our being that demands an explanation for.... logically...If you can say somehow that 2+2 does not equal 4 then I am open to hear your opinion... but that doesn't mean that I will agree with it. It is important to be "open" and try to take in others opinions... but not open at both ends....
The natural desire for mankind is to know the truth. This too is an obvious internal drive that we all have.... and what's more, this drive leads us to the limits of our logical thinking processes that force us to encompass the ideas of the immaterial. When we butt up against the limits of our logical thought our "baggage of invested beliefs" becomes threatened and we cling to what we can measure and weigh as arguments for what we interpret as "sure ground". But the paradigm is now shifting. The material sciences can no longer keep their head in the sand. What I say about the singularly human condition of not only "consciousness"... but of "self-consciousness" is rapidly becoming the foundation for a new science.. the science of the spirit... The phenomenon of NDE is only one portal to the discovery of this reality.Perhaps the one that will really open up a flood gate of the mystical, magical side of our inner being. As medical science marches on, we will see a new awakening in this fascinating realm of research.... as Bob Dylan says... "The times they are a changin' "
daniel hehir 20+
Thanks for your honesty! I agree sometimes that I used my nine pound hammer..... but the nails ain't goin' down... Perhaps next time I'll try to take a more diplomatic point of view.
I always make it a point to stay on the "logical mat" in my responses. This is important for all of us. Even if we have personally experienced a NDE. Because there is.. without a doubt a logical explanation for the phenomenon. Logic has to expand beyond the physical and encompass the spiritual as well. This is perhaps the fulcrum point that my decisiveness....
What ever the end result may be, if I have or have not "convinced" anyone of anything, the point that we may have come closer to "some" truths... as fleeting as they may be, might be chalked up to my "semi-provocative" point of argumentation. Should I eventually decide to start a new thread on TED, I will keep in mind your comments.
Thanks for taking part! Your contributions have been most invaluable and I respect your opinions on both the spiritual and the physical perspectives of mankind.
Hope to meet you again out here on TED.
Best wishes, Daniel
Colleen Steen 500+
Logic does NOT have to expand to encompass the spiritual FOR ALL PEOPLE. You may see the pleasure, joy, contentment in that perspective, and others may see things differently. Yes, you are "right" in that it appears to be the fulcrum point for your decisiveness. It appears that you are trying to convince everyone that your perspective is "right". It may very well be...or not! I respect your opinions too Daniel, and I don't agree that trying to "hammer" your truth into others is the way to go:>)Love you and your ideas:>)Colleen
daniel hehir 20+
The intersting thing that your friend the neurologist didn't comment on is this:
Many, many people have experienced a NDE and many have seen things while in that state which are of an objective physical nature. Take for example the woman in Oregon as I refered to earlier who "died" and was revived to life again. Now this is just one example of many.... very many..
The woman came back to consciousness and told the nurse at her bedside that there was a red tennis shoe on the roof of the hospital... of course everyone laughed, but the woman persisted... finally a nurse went up to the roof and sure enough found a red tennis shoe there....
Tell me now..... How did her brain get up on the roof of the hospital.....?
Colleen Steen 500+
p.s. The other thing that seemed to puzzle the care givers in ICU was the fact that I came back to visit them. They kept remarking that people simply do not come into ICU in the condition I was in after the accident and craniotomy and then walk in 3 months later to chat! Perhaps it IS all a dream or an illusion, as Tim and Birdia are discussing:>)
daniel hehir 20+
Wonderful ! I love it ! Thanks so much for being here and for being you !
Colleen Steen 500+
My pleasure to be here, and perhaps one of these days, we'll figure out who I really am:>)
Who else could I be if not me?:>)
daniel hehir 20+
I asked... Is the person who never offers a thought about the spiritual world, or even in fact denies its existence... does this person experience the life after death as being simply "shades of grey" ? I seem to recall that you yourself had no real interest in the spirit world before your NDE but perhaps were in a way open to it as a possibility. But to deny it here in the "earthly school" does that, in your view give any reflection of what will be experienced in the afterlife? ..... as maybe "higher levels" of consciousness depending on what one has "learned" here on earth? There are of course elements of our moral being that cannot be measured... like empathy.... morality ....and other soul qualities that fall of the "measurable" scale... but do you think that these qualities of our being have much to do with our further evolution in the afterlife ?.............I know...I know..... big question ! The repercussions of your answer could ecco around the world now.... so answer carefully...... :-)
Tim Colgan 50+
I don't believe that our individual consciousness persists (at least for long) after our death. But I accept that I could be wrong.
Can you accept that you could be wrong in believing there is an afterlife? If not, maybe you should do some self-reflection before saying that others are not open-minded.
Colleen Steen 500+
For what it's worth Tim, my perception of you is that you are open minded and exploring:>)
Tim Colgan 50+
Colleen Steen 500+
Birdia, I agree with you...we are living here and now. Whether or not we believe in something beyond this earth plane, we are here now. Again, for me that is the important piece:>)
daniel hehir 20+
Yes I do think these qualities have something to do with our experience and evolution in the "afterlife".
"Life", as we know it here, reveals itself as only part of the whole.... and what we don't get this time around... we have a second chance at ...yes.. and a third.... and a fourth ... and a fifth....
Yes, our consciousness is also evolving. It is developing through eons and eons of time...
The ideas of the simply material evolution of mankind are obsolete. Our consciousness.... our self-conscious being... is on a pathway of spiritual development that has both preexisted our physical existence and will continue to exist after our physical evolution has reached an end.
The theory of evolution doesn't need to stop at the solely physical development of mankind. It can, as I see, continue on towards the perfection of our entire being. If you choose not to recognize the whole of our being.. then thats OK too.. We are free beings !! But I believe indeed that you will, as I say, have a second chance...
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree with much of what you have written. How important is it for you to convince others that you are right?
Mind S 30+
You may also consult the two scientific articles, that I mentioned to Colleen in my last post, which shed light on possible medical explanation of any OBE. Concerning the story of the “Red tennis shoe”, I read that this story was told by a hospital social worker named Kimberly Clark Sharp about NDE survival, a Hispanic woman with the name Maria. Sharp was the only witness to the story (She also was the person who did the detective work to find the shoe) and no one knows more about the whereabouts of the patient Maria. If this is really the case then the red shoe tale has common element with Lady Hope story of Darwin’s deathbed conversion. Such reports need to be checked for their authenticity/credibility followed by their subjection for scientific scrutiny and research without the need to resort for any mystic thoughts.
Colleen Steen 500+
Of course there is a medical/scientific explanation of OBE/NDE. What is the relevance to the women being "Hispanic with the name Maria"? Is that scientific in some way? You can check them for "authenticity/credibility followed by their subjection for scientific scrutiny and research without the need to sesort for any mystic thoughts" if you want to. Some of us will simply enjoy a delightful story without trying to label it:>)
Mind S 30+
("Hispanic with the name Maria"? Is that scientific in some way?)
Probably you are on the wrong track. It is to emphasize her blurred identity which might bear relevance on the credibility/authenticity of the story.
Colleen Steen 500+
Hispanic with the name Maria, indicates a "blurred identity" to you?
That is really sad. I think I'm on a damm GOOD track compared to where you are darlin' :>)
daniel hehir 20+
I just put out some youtube vids. on NDE. I'm looking forward to hearing some of your comments on these.
I think we will have to make a new TED conversation site on NDE... what do you say to that ?
There are only a few days left on this one and I feel like the concept of consciousness is just starting to materialize....:-)
Mind S 30+
The wording denotes the scanty information/poor documentation (no more no less) of a story that is manipulated to come with far-reaching mystic constructions. My regards.
daniel hehir 20+
but thanks for putting him in his place..
daniel hehir 20+
Colleen Steen 500+
Why do you say I'm "hard" on "poor Mind S"? He stated that he mentioned a"Hispanic with the name Maria" to "emphasize her blurred identity which might bear relevance on the credibility/authenticity of the story". He could have said unidentified person, and it wouldn't have sounded so prejudiced. As he told me I am "on the wrong track", I merely told him "I think I'm on a damm GOOD track". End of story...Mind S is fine I'm sure:>)
Thanks Birdia. You are right again:>)
Mind S 30+
About NDE. I was discussing the issue with a friend who is neurologist. He thinks the phenomenon translates the FUNCTION OF A DYING BRAIN. The similarities in NDE reports are due to the fact that all brains die in the same way. He affirmed that NDE has no "spiritual" implication.
Colleen Steen 500+
That's an interesting affirmation. I suggest that he probably does not believe in spirituality, so he will frame his perception around his own beliefs. As I've been saying right along, I do not have to name it, identify it, in any specific way. I've discussed it with several neurologists, neurosurgeons, psychologists, etc., all of whom have different perspectives. I believe it could be spiritual or scientific because I am open to all possibilities:>) So, if this phenomenon translates to "Dying Brain", and "all brains die in the same way", why is it that my brain is not dead? Or perhaps you believe it is??? LOL:>)
Mind S 30+
A “dying brain” doesn’t necessarily end with complete death, which is an irreversible process. It is clinically known that a dying person is either in irreversible coma, hence the return of life is impossible, or in reversible coma in which case the person could recover and return back to life.
But I confess that your last sentence kept me smiling while typing!
Colleen Steen 500+
So, how do you explain the situation where a person (me) is not expected to live because of proven clinical information...authenticated by text books no less, and yet here I am? What is your theory Mind S? You never disappoint me, and I'm happy I can facilitate smiling in you:>)
Comment deleted
daniel hehir 20+
Thanks for the link Kathy. It opens up the door even further to our understanding of this immaterial inner part of our being that we give the name "consciousness"...
Havn't seen Budimir here though...
Budimir Zdravkovic 20+
Ok so you are defining consciousness as a subtle energy and matter beyond the scope of science. But words like energy and matter have no meaning outside the framework of science. There is no matter without mass and there is no energy without joules, these are fundamental units that science needs to measure in order to define a thing as "matter" or "energy."
The hard problem of consciousness is that science can't define consciousness as any of these things which are substantial. And the terms "energy" and "matter' cannot be used in any meaningful or conceptual sense to describe consciousness.
daniel hehir 20+
The material sciences of today have not developed the tools to measure consciousness or what some here call energy (in the material sense of energy, like electrical...) we naturally call things of a spiritual nature by more "material" words and use material definitions simply because we don't have the vocabulary for such things... But some similarities are there... such as electrical energy is not at all visible.. you can see its effects... but electricity itself is quite invisible...Maybe someday science will develop the tools to measure consciousness... but I doubt it...
Have you been following along in the discussion or have you been away for a while ?
Budimir Zdravkovic 20+
Yes so we don't have the vocabulary for such things and they are clearly defined by a different nature than things which are measurable and can be mathematically determined. In the coming years maybe someone will develop a means to measure consciousness but until that happens I don't think anyone can confidently claim that it is an energy or a material. If pure consciousness did exert energy then that energy should leave some kind of evidence behind, undetectable energy is no energy at all. It is how we seperate hallucinations from material things. Hallucinations can be quite convincing but they don't have detectable influence on the physical world.
Electricity does however, even if it is not directly observable it still produces physical effects on objects and these effects can be measured and precisely determined with the units of energy. So there is every reason to believe actual energy is manifesting.
daniel hehir 20+
As I said earlier... about 467 posts back.... that the spiritual element in man reveals itself through everything that mankind has manifested in the world through his activity of thinking. Thinking is the direct expression of consciousness and is revealed by its "footprints" in the neurological activity of the physical brain. To say that the neurological activity or firing of neurons is coming from and originating in the grey matter of the brain is the materialists illusion. The subject in an MRI machine must be first have to decide to think about one subject of another in order to measure and locate this
activity. Of course the activity may come about "by itself" but the individuality that initiates the neural activity must engage his thinking via his consciousness. The thinking is the tool of the "observer" "witness" or the "one doing the thinking" the "thinker". Yes, you can say that consciousness or "the spiritual entity" in us engages the thinking process that then reveals itself in the manifestation of the firing of the neurons in the brain... If one would use the same interpretation of again this "energy" which is by no means physical and then measure this "energy" as for example when a person is asleep as compared with when the person is in active thought, then you might "measure" what I'm talking about
but you still would be measuring only consciousness's "effects" on the brain and not the "cause" of this thinking activity.
Ed Schulte 50+
I have to cut your suggestion are pasted it here …this TED forum is not set up for more then 20 – 30 replies ….(see what you did !! ☺)
well, I do agree that there is a large degree of “sensitivity” here and ownership ….but so be it …….as for starting another discussion…..their “ships” will follow, there is no avoiding it and…. bottom line ….these do keep one from falling into particular mind traps.
RE YOUR: “Your really gonna get the materialists on our backs if you keep using words like "etheric doubles" .... maybe we should start our own new discussion anyway.... on perhaps the occult science of the evolution of the earth.... that would blow their ships outa the water .... ;-)
Really?,,,….Is “etheric” see/heard/felt as “occult”!!!.... is differentiation between “reflected light source and non-reflected” a doubt around the TED community? iow do “materialists” rule that much? (I have only sat in on one TED live/ partial participation / program, and am not one myself)…..I don’t know,
I dropped by because I heard a Compassion talk was here. Now that it has moved on …….
daniel hehir 20+
Sounds very interesting about the reflected light source and non-reflected light... can you tell us a little bit about it ?
I am acquainted with the word etheric ... although I don't think too many others here are... can't you present a few basic ideas for us?
Ed Schulte 50+
Mar 21 Awareness of the overall silent contextual field is facilitated by a contemplative lifestyle that could be likened to shifting interest from details to "the big picture." It "gets" overall qualities of atmosphere without going into specifics, and therefore intuits generalities rather than thinking or analyzing.The resistance of the ego/mind is that it is afraid it might "miss" something, as it is addicted to processing the details of the content of form, which is the attraction and lure of the world. To "renounce the world" means to withdraw energy from it and decline activities that require attention to specifics, thereby abiding in the Self rather than in the amusements of the self."This summarizes "effects" of the Subjective / Non-material / Light very well ....it is Healing / Baraka Light
now, going to add tolle's current present moment reminder here as a parallel to Hawkins"Whatever is arising in this moment, whatever condition, is part of the isness of life and therefore accepting it fully makes you an expression of the enormous power of life itself—true intelligence, which only comes when you stop obstructing the power of the present moment"
"
both are very good parallels to the "Light" within each of the subjects in bucke's "Cosmic Consciousness"
daniel hehir 20+
daniel hehir 20+
Again Ed.... well said !
Mind S 30+
“ideas/language/thinking” have emergence, they don’t enjoy eternality. Evolution is the main culprit. Human thoughts, intelligence and language have evolved over time. Self-consciousness and language are among the evolved cognitive faculties that set us distinct from other creatures.
Cognitive science, anthropology, ethology and comparative psychology explain the evolution of human thinking and related entities.
BTW, the majority of Aristotle thoughts are now obsolete and currently bear no more than historical interest. We no longer consult Aristotle’s treatises for the purpose of acquiring knowledge (except by those who rely heavily on metaphysics and associated eternal, circular debates that thrive on gaps in our knowledge!) . Regards.
daniel hehir 20+
Just what do have to say about the four elements Mind S.
It might be interesting to hear just what these concepts mean to you... maybe thats why you call them obsolete simply because you have never grasped the full value of their meaning...
daniel hehir 20+
I kind of felt you were still out there ! It's nice to have someone around who can tell us first hand what its like on the "other side" We were in on that old subject of just where thoughts come from again... Is is ourselves that create them or are they sort of in the cosmic ether already that we just sort of pull down... as you were saying about intuition ... its almost beyond our capacity to fully understand it.... It lies in a deeper level ... or perhaps a higher level of that we call daily awake consciousness.
Can you agree with the idea that creative thoughts come from a higher level of consciousness... such as intuition or imagination or inspiration.... Can it be that when we are really creative that we are getting "messages" from the spiritual world...?
Colleen Steen 500+
Yes...thoughts are created by us, and they are "sort of in the cosmic ether already" as you say...yes, sometimes beyond our capacity to fully understand...deeper level...or perhaps higher level of consciousness:>)
i believe that thoughts often come from a higher level of consciousness, which can also be called intuition, imagination or inspiration. I believe there is a collective consciousness, or universal consciousness and the information from that source is unlimited:>)
I also believe that we create our own reality, so if we do not believe this, then it is not our reality:>)
daniel hehir 20+
Would you say that a person who lives as a materialist, thinks as a materialist, never offered a thought to the spiritual world... when this person dies... would you say that their experience of the spiritual world also depends on how they lived and thought here in the earthly school...?
Would it be correct to say that a person who has no concerns with spiritual thoughts here on the earthly plane will not have them in the spirit world either...? Would you say that their existence in the afterlife would be perhaps very grey...? (Here I go.. shooting away all my questions right at you again.. hope it's O.K. with you ...;-)
Colleen Steen 500+
Those who address "the nature of consciousness" from a scientific approach, obviously have scientific information/backgrounds, and those who approach the discussion from a spiritual place, may have a belief in a god or some spiritual, religious or philosophical information they have embraced as a life practice. Neither is right or wrong...just different.
My experience with the life review, was that it was how I lived my life that was most important. Very basic stuff! Was I kind, considerate, respectful and loving to others? There is nothing wrong with having a materialistic perspective. How we use that information is the important piece. Is our materialistic belief that all material things are just for us as individuals? Do we horde material things
and prevent others from sharing the "stuff"? Or, do we focus on the materialistic for the good of all
mankind? Do you understand? How we use any information to form our life experience is the important piece, in my humble perception.
I do not believe it is correct to assume that a person who has no concerns with spiritual thoughts here on the earthly plane will not have them elsewhere. As energy beings, and as humans, our focus and life experience can change at any given time. My experience tells me that we are all energy beings on another plane, and neither white, grey or black...no color...no concrete perception that I can explain in human terms.
daniel hehir 20+
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The gospel according to St. John
I know this isn't exactly from one of your axioms of belief but sometimes a little bit of the more religious sides of life fall into place if one really allows the ideas to live, to give life to the ideas.... just the idea of the word "believe"... could be read as ..." to enliven " .... to enliven your thoughts... give them movement and fill them with a living force that carries them to another dimension. Sometimes logical thought may struggle to keep up but that doesn't mean that logical thought has no place.... It's sort of like the logicalness of Euclid's geometry vs. the progressive or synthetic geometry of Aristotle.. they come from different axioms but can both be seen to be true...
livelyness of Aristotelian geometry... The geometry of the infinite demands a certain sense of movement that logical thought can always easily follow, this can be said about the spiritual world as well. The limits of logic must be set into movement, movement that can rise above space and time as we are familiar with here on the physical plane of existence.
Minh Do
daniel hehir 20+
You see the exact same thing in people that have had internal bleeding in the brain... some have the strength to overcome the injury and others do not, depending on the severity of the bleeding as well as the strength of the will of the individual to reestablish the lost functions of the brain. A person who has had a stroke can reestablish the language centers of the brain in a new area of the brain that was perhaps for another function or had no apparent visible function.... as they say, we only actually use a small % of the total capacity of the brain. To damage the antenna of the radio doesn't necessarily mean that the radio or the signal are malfunctioning. The first impression may say to you that the part of the brain itself is producing the language function... but this, in my way of seeing things is a fallacy. The brain is the antenna for the ideas/language/thinking to come in...
A mentally ill person can have a damaged antenna yes, or perhaps another region of the whole constitution of the body. Because the body is in an intricate balance with the brain function, a malfunction in one of the organs can create an imbalance in the brain.
The imbalance that shows itself in what we called handicapped individuals can reveal an inner reality to the true nature of consciousness. By studying these imbalances in the handicapped person we can gain insight into that which we call the "normal" nature of consciousness. This is a rather esoteric perspective of what consciousness is all about and I'm not so sure that this is the right forum to go into such detail on... but perhaps just a little example or two if your interested Minh.
Are you interested ?
Mind S 30+
“The brain is the antenna for the ideas/language/thinking to come in...”
To come in from where?
You have wild, unrestrained imagination indeed. What you assert has no basis in reality and can’t be considered more than utter nonsense. Sorry.
daniel hehir 20+
Even a scientist will tell you of the same form for creative activity as something that "comes" to him / her. Read what Oppenheimer says about developing the A bomb
This "where" that you ask for is perhaps not a spacial thing at all.. if you go back to the example that I gave about the point / plane....or circle / line .. expanding the point of infinity.. do you start to see "where" I'm getting at ? If you can't relocate that example that I gave to Tim, then I can perhaps rewrite it again... but take a look for it first.... but it is like someone else was saying that which axioms one chooses from the starting point... as can parallel lines meet ? Most people are in agreement with this statement, but one can also agree that they can meet..at a "place" called the "ideal point" .. this isn't my "nonsense" Mind S but it belongs, as far as I know to the ideas of Aristotle.. In Euclidian geometry the axiom is another.
daniel hehir 20+
What you are of course proposing is the traditional experience of the modern western world of perceiving the nature of the human thought process.... its and interesting observation that when the development of "self-consciousness" becomes so strongly developed that the thoughts are experienced as also coming from "within me" ...and not from the external world... Perhaps the ancient philosophers experienced thought as coming from the "outer world"..." to them"
I would like to raise a question to those out there reading this.....
What does the development of self-consciousness have to do with the impression or the experience that we have of that thoughts are my own and they come from within me..?
Many will say this is a radical proposition and has no root in reality at all... thats fine... we can progress in a discussion anyway... I am absolutely open to the chance of being completely wrong on this.... I haven't any real person investment in the idea... so... maybe we can all take a look at it together.... Its just an idea that I'm throwing out there....
Colleen Steen 500+
I will try to answer your questions above as one small person who had an experience with a brain injury. I am not a scientist, and do not try to explain anything from a scientific place.
21 years ago, I sustained a near fatal head/brain injury while horseback riding. The shoed hoof of the horse connected with my head and caused an inward fractured skull. In other words, the fracture was into the brain in the right temporal lobe area, and caused sub dural bleeding. Luckily, circumstances conspired so that I got to the hospital within an hour, otherwise I would not have lived. It happened that the director of the neurosurgery dept. at the univ.of Vt. was on call that day and happened to be in the hosp. when I arrived, so I went directly into surgery for a craniotomy. The blood was evacuated and damaged brain tissue removed, after which I was attached to life support systems and unconscious for 2 weeks.
During the first two days in ICU, the body hovered between life and death. When I could function again, I obtained my medical records to varify what was going on clinically. During that time, my energy/spirit left the body. Although the body was unconscious as defined by the medical model, I was much more conscious on many other levels. I could see the body...not a pretty sight by the way! I was totally detached from the body and saw it as a vehicle that carries me through this earth school. I was aware of a much larger picture of "consciousness". I was aware of the thoughts and feelings of those around me in the room, and could see everything very clearly, from a place other than my brain. My experience is that consciousness is an energy that moves through the body, including the brain. When the energy that is the true "me" came back into the body, the condition of the body stabalized, and I continued to live. I was not expected to live, and I was not expected to ever function again, and here I am doing both:>)
Mind S 30+
Have you reported this "experience" to a neurologist or psycho neurologist? Specialists in this field may provide scientific/natural explanation that is different from what you think about. Glad to know your amiable personality.
Colleen Steen 500+
Of course it was reported to many neurologists. I was considered somewhat of a medical miracle...LOL:>)
I went through tests...tests...tests...
I guest lectured on the topic at the Univ. of Vt. for 6 years...
There could be MANY explainations! Have you checked out Near Death Experience Research...try googling it if you're interested:>)
I appreciate your amiable personality too...thanks:>)
daniel hehir 20+
Colleen Steen 500+
Haven't been gone...just observing:>)
Debra Smith 200+
daniel hehir 20+
Welcome to the debate! Harry Hunt is a new name for me, but I always find it interesting to hear what other people are interested in. I'll try to get a chance to google him up... Maybe you could come with a few ideas or comments that would maybe create a new direction for us here... There is an amazing amount of people that find this very interesting... I wonder how many readers there are that don't leave a comment...
Please write more, we are (or some of us are) open to new ideas and input ;-)
daniel hehir 20+
http://cognet.mit.edu/posters/TUCSON3/Hunt.html
Debra Smith 200+
You make me feel most welcome and I am delighted that you looked up Harry Hunt. He is facinating. I won a book prize when I graduated from my undergrad degree and I chose one of his and had him sign it for me. If it has to do with consciousness, Harry has considered it.
One of his ideas is that we learn most about normal consciousness when we observe altered states. When I TA'd for Harry we learned so much about cognitive states of people who believe that they were abducted by aliens, dream states such a lucid dreaming, mediatation, mental illness and drug states. Each of these states has much to teach us about our functioning in day to day consciousness.
Colleen Steen 500+
I'm not familier with Harry Hunt or his work, but I totally agree that we learn...when we observe altered states. Each of these states has much to teach us about our functioning in day to day consciousness. The only thing we need to do is open our heart and mind to access this information:>)
Thanks Debra:>)
daniel hehir 20+
I havn't gotten a chance to read so much of Harry Hunt yet, just the link that I set out. He certainly follows along my line of thought... at least thats my first impression.
Thanks again for your contributions !!
daniel hehir 20+
I was surprised to hear that the direction of research H.H. has taken him towards the phenomenon of sleep. Sleep is something that I mentioned earlier here on this thread, but like Ed says... you might need a GPS to find it. 500 and climbing is pretty amazing!
What I wanted to say also relates to sleep in a very special way.
I can begin gently, because some of these ideas are pretty esoteric and unless you have read a bit of esoteric literature, they my strike you as being very strange. It may depend on how you relate to "spiritual" concepts and just what your religious background is, but I hope that you can try to have an open mind about it.. not so open as... open at both ends... but still open ;-)
Our discussion has been focused mostly around the everyday consciousness we are in in the waking state. Sleep is of course another state of consciousness.
The basis for what I will try to present has its ideas from the ancients, perhaps especially the Greek philosophy with the principles of the four elements as the starting point... It's not really as mystical as it may sound. But others here have sort of set aside philosophers like Aristotle who had an active understanding of these principles. They saw life through other glasses back then and I think they also drew their ideas from earlier mystics that have been passed along through time. But today, we don't even consider them that much... MindS says that he is obsolete.. I choose to disagree.
If we start with the four elements in the order from the bottom up ...
Earth
Water
Air
Fire
These are the active, living principles that they viewed the world we live in by. Everything was either more or less a part of these four elements. What we see today as naive, has some hidden mysteries that can begin to explain the constitution of our being without sacrificing our logical thought process. Logic is something that we demand in our world view today and rightly so. But to "try on" these ancient ideas can do no harm..
Debra Smith 200+
Colleen Steen 500+
Apparently, I used this practice as a child to "escape" the rage of my violent, abusive father. I was not conscious of using the practice until an experience in my late 30s.
I was in a sailboat race one afternoon. We had high winds and not enough crew. I, and 2 strong men were pulling in the spiniker, when the wind caught it and popped it out, causing the 3 of us to hurttle across the deck. I was pulled into a metal winch which struck my chest. I finished the race with discomfort. After the race, I had just enough time to get cleaned up and drive to the theater, where I was performing a lead role in a musical production. I was in considerable pain, and having difficulty breathing, but it never crossed my mind that I would not do the performance. While preparing for the performance (hair, make-up, costume, physical/vocal warm-ups) the pain started to subside. By the time I was on stage, I was the character. There was no evidence of Colleen injured in a sailboat race. This is not unusual for actors to put themselves in a different state of consciousness, often performing comedic roles, when sick or "down" in their own life experiences, or melodramatic roles when their life is wonderful. We connect with a different state of consciousness.
The day after the performance, I was in pain, so decided to have it checked out. I had 4 cracked, but not displaced ribs. For the next 2 weeks of performances, I rested, took care of the body in the daytime and did the performance at night, with the same results.
Years later, when faced with a near fatal head injury and cancer at the same time, I knew the routine pretty well! This is a state of consciousness available to us...could be considered spiritual, scientific...or not:>)
daniel hehir 20+
earth- all that is physical, the things we see and touch, have mass weight etc.
water- The living...the plant, as the next higher level of development, this has to do with the element of life. Animals and man/woman also have this element within itself.. or we can call it a "life force" generally not excepted as scientific, but remember this is just a model of a way of seeing things. Scientific or not.. it remains to be proven if there is such a thing as a life force. We can hold it open as a possibility.
Air- The air element is that of the animal level where the air is breathed in. This is the level of a feeling being, with both senses of pleasure and pain, sympathy and antipathy, both physical and emotional pleasure / pain.
Fire- or some call it warmth or light element. This is particular to man. This is the thinking aspect as well as the self-consciousness that lies within us.. as opposed to the animal where there is consciousness but not internally experienced as self-consciousness.
This is a brief overview of these four elemental "processes" remember that they are not so simple as the physical aspects that can seem quite naive to us with our modern day thinking. But think of them as active principles that work even down into the finest of matter. The next picture is where the consciousness comes in. Again this is no "scientific explanation" but one can surely experience it as something very real.
Think of yourself lying in bed.. and at the moment of falling to sleep, the two higher elements rise out of the physical body... the feeling element and the self-consciousness lift out of the physical and life body that remains in the bed... you sleep, you dream, and in the morning you wake up again and your being is "whole" with the two higher elemental processes
now "reincarnated"with the lower two levels again... we actually reincarnate every morning
Tim Colgan 50+
"... what of the ongoing debates about the point of emergence of consciousness in nature? There are those who see consciousness-even a simple and immediate one-as only emergent through the evolution of complex enough neural nets. ... Or, there are those who seek to rest a primary or basic consciousness on the field properties of quantum physics.
"Where to most plausibly place the emergence of consciousness seems a major key to all subsequent theory and research. If it is placed significantly too high or too low the entire field of consciousness studies will be distorted. I would argue from a primacy of experience perspective-locating the most basic consciousness in immediate perception and its behavioral manifestations-that both the neurocognitive and quantum explanations are ultimately reductionistic and so obscure the most basic features of consciousness itself.
"If we assign primary consciousness on a need to know basis then it is probably first visible in all creatures who move enough in relation to their surroundings that some self-location during and after each movement will be necessary for survival. Single cell organisms meet this criterion ..."
daniel hehir 20+
I think I can agree quite well with what HH is getting at.
I can neither find any discrepency in what HH is saying and what I have been saying all along..
HH is very good at keeping his "feet on the mat" of the scientific perspective of the immaterial phenomenon of consciousness...
Do you find anything HH says that contradicts that which I have been saying here on TED ?
Although I take the word "spirit" more concretely in my mouth.... HH is clearly leaning in that direction... the plausibility of the metaphysical is also taken into account.. the experiencial within each of us, the self-consciousness aspect of our being that cannot be set aside from the scientific method of research... we are, in our activity of observation....in our activity of thinking and re-thinking are taking part in this fundamental aspect of our inner being...
Debra Smith 200+
Daniel- I think Harry would say that your examples from Aristotle are an example of using fresh or novel imagery to allow new modes of thinking to be productive. While he is fully versed on the philosophers his example here would be the I Ching which, although I am not nearly conversent enough about it - would give new images to frame current experiences. For example lood at the way you have used the words and described their attributes. The I Ching frames people's place in life with images of trees and horses and when you take a problem that is bothering you - say your relationship with your boss and you think of it in images that you would never have applied to that relationship- it allows you to think with new parts of your brain and in new ways in the hope of jumping out of a cognitive rut to spark new ways of considering the problems.
Colleen Steen 500+
Tim Colgan 50+
Debra Smith 200+
I am totally delighted that you found something positive in it!
Enjoy!
Deb
Mind S 30+
American population believe in:
Extrasensory perception, or ESP 41%
That houses can be haunted 37%
Ghosts/that spirits of dead people can come back in certain places/situations 32%
Telepathy/communication between minds without using traditional senses 31%
Clairvoyance/the power of the mind to know the past and predict the future 26%
Astrology, or that the position of the stars and planets can affect people's lives 25%
That people can communicate mentally with someone who has died 21%
Witches 21%
Reincarnation, that is, the rebirth of the soul in a new body after death 20%
Channeling/allowing a 'spirit-being' to temporarily assume control of body 9%
Would everybody, please, reflect sincerely on this saddening reality?
daniel hehir 20+
Perhaps some of these people have had real experiences in such things first hand.. Have you ever considered this possibility? It's not at all logical to close out all possibilities just because your trying to have a scientific outlook on life. They were pretty interesting stats. though. I have heard that the % of people in the U.S.that believe in reincarnation is around 49% That's pretty surprising if true.. 20% sounds a little bit low... It would interesting to hear the % of the whole worlds population. Interesting how it appears that the more "supernatural" sides of reality exist so much more strongly in the less technologically developed cultures.... to extremes... like in some African countries with witch doctors and such.
But I would call it a cheep shot to simply write off all things of a paranormal nature. Theres far more to it than that. Perhaps it's just that certain forces of the more scientific cultures try so hard to push it off into the corner and not look at what might be something more under the surface. If you just write it off... because it doesn't fit into your perspective of things than it keeps your own perspective very comfortable. You think you've got everything under control... To put it all off as superstition.. means you don't have to deal with it all... because there is nothing real about it.... yes? But if you ever by chance come over just one of these phenomenon and really go into it, research it, perhaps meet a scientific person of "authority" one that you can believe ..(....) it may just cause a domino effect.... but be careful because there is a lot out there that is really a lot of bull... but your thinking and scientific method will lead you to the things that are true...If you simply continue to write them all of and only live in "the box" of materialistic thinking then your natural scepticism will limit your own development. You might become cynical towards life in general... this is even a more saddening reality ..
Debra Smith 200+
daniel hehir 20+
Tim blackburn 30+
daniel hehir 20+
daniel hehir 20+
Comment deleted
daniel hehir 20+
Colleen Steen 500+
I am humbled in your presence:>)
Colleen Steen 500+
Colleen Steen 500+
Colleen Steen 500+
Remember what I told you once Birdia? "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused":>) I take myself pretty lightly:>)
Back to the story and your questions:
I can only describe it as something like a strong sense of intuition, gut feeling or ESP. There was a sense of "knowing".
There were no limitations regarding space or boundaries...it was unlimited. I was simply a mass of energy.
It WAS pretty fascinating to me and nothing that "fit" into my previous belief system. I did a lot of research and pondering to come to terms with it. I remember the first time I spoke about the experience at the Univ., I was almost expecting rotten fruit to be thrown at me for having such an idea!!! LOL! However, the students were very receptive and there were always students who had a similar experience or knew someone who did. It's really pretty common. As I suggested to Mind S, google Near Death Research if you're interested. Some of the recorded experiences are pretty interesting...some not so much:>)
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree...I don't "think" too much either...usually "feel" more than "think".
So, what do you think/feel that intuition is? Where do you think/feel it comes from?
See, that is what I call energy/consciousness. It is not coming from my thinking brain, it is coming from somewhere else...in my humble opinion:>)
Colleen Steen 500+
You know the feeling when you're instantly attracted to someone...or not? There is some underlying sense (intuition, instinct, or something deeper). It is not the thought process that is giving us that information usually...it is something deeper huh? What is that? Where does it come from? Animals often instinctively "know" people. On some level, they sense whether the person likes animals or not huh? A horse will immediately sense if the person on their back is an experienced rider or not. Where does that come from? What connects us to other people and all living things? See, my experience tells me it's energy. Even science is recognizing the energy connections with all living things:>)
One of my favorite horses to ride was a little quarter horse/buckskin named Bucky. When he had a little kid or inexperienced rider on his back, he would hang his head and mope along peacefully. When an experienced rider first put a foot in the stirup, Bucky's head would pop up, and he was prancing around ready to ride. Where does that come from? I believe there is an energy connection that can be called intuition, instinct, or consciousness.
Colleen Steen 500+
"Love/truth can be a fact, with or without a god":>)
Thank you so much for your kind words. I appreciate you:>)
C
daniel hehir 20+
aahh, ...yes, ... one coffee and a jelly donut please... hold the cream..... and thank you !
What do you mean divided ?
United or divided.. we march on... some getting closer to each other others drifting like
satellites out into the cosmic consciousness.... we're gonna get all the way from here to there ... even if we gotta walk a million miles by candle light....
Ed Schulte 50+
I kind of thought she would here all the ruckus here and come to check it out....
...by the Bye......... I'll have the 'loaf of bead with fish'...please and thanks ..lettuce? yes sprouts? yes ...onions? no onions, mustard and mayo?? yes thanks :-) pepper too and 'salt of the earth' if you have any ;-)
Speaking of fish and this whole "nature of Consciousness" thing ..
..there is the old Sufi story of consciousness which goes
A big fish asked a group of baby fish...."children do you know what water is?" they replied "no, what is it. " "Well" replied big fish, "it is very important, without it you would die!!" So the baby fish immediately swim home to mommy and say..."Mommy mommy the big fish said if we don't know what water is we will die!!!" The mother replied ...don't worry about knowing water ....water is all around you and it is in you too ...you are breathing it.
So the young (relatively speaking) Sufi Sage Kibir did a modification of the old story ...
he said "I laugh when I hear them say 'The fish in the ocean are thirsty'"
Colleen Steen 500+
YOU are the "salt of the earth" Ed, and if you will deliver one of those good sounding sandwiches to the Goddesses, we would be forever grateful....right Birdia? LOL:>)
Minh Do
daniel hehir 20+
" I am" ...."
Minh Do
Do you guys think that religious descriptions that allude to "consciousness being everywhere" is not to be taken so literally? It's actually just pointing to the nature of our mind wherein all things are molded by our perceptions and not to the "genetic makeup" of the universe? In basic Buddhist doctrine of the 5 skandhas (consciousness, mental formations, perceptions, sensation, and matter) that create the self, these 5 things must come together before a self can develop. I'd argue that well...the chair I'm sitting on does not possess 4 of those things. And the consciousness I possess would not arise without matter either, they are interdependent entities that cannot exist without each other
natasha nikulina 50+
Minh Do
Mark Meijer 100+
Even those who have done so only to a limited extent, who are otherwise still routinely slave to those patterns (one of which is ego-identification), and who only manage to step out of that occasionally, as long as they're aware of that nature of themselves, they can be said to have "awakened" to it.
There are many things that one can awaken to, there is nothing mysterious about it. It's really not very different from having an epiphany, literally realizing something for the first time. The only question is, an epiphany of what? Realized what? Awakened to what? As I see it, when talking about so-called "mystical" or "spiritual" awakening, it means realizing the nature of the way in which you exist (or more broadly speaking, the nature of reality).
Which means (among other things) realizing that you're a slave to your own self-imposed habits (one of which is compulsive thought, which makes up a large part of one's sense of personal identity), and realizing that not only did you grow yourself into those habits, but you can grow out of them as well (although that ultimately requires you to clearly see non-duality, since dualistic thinking is just another compulsive habit we've grown into, which is the part where language gets tricky because it is necessarily dualistic).
It's really rather down-to-earth, not to mention hugely practical! But it gets that pie-in-the-sky connotation when, as you said, people start misinterpreting and speculating about it who haven't actually had this epiphany themselves yet.
SANTHIP KANHOLY
But yes, regardless of the fact that actual Buddhas ( awakened one's) are rare, it does mean that if you find a real buddha, in whose presence your heart moves, and whose actions match their words, and after we have judged them to be a buddha using our own experience with them, then we learn from such realized beings what they have to offer. But yes.. even if they may be rare.. but they do exist. That is indeed a fact. Let us not allow our own prejudices to interfere with facts that stand up on its own, based on our own individual experiences.
Here is how I interpret the skandha's you have mentioned - Matter creates sensations which leads to perceptions which are interpreted by mental formation within consciousness. So without consciousness, none of this would happen as the mental formations are created within consciousness, and the "self" ( small s) will not arise ; implying consciousness should be everywhere :) As far as the chair is concerned, what if chair had consciousness, matter, but no mental formation or the ability to percieve ( I wonder how much of the human experience of perception can be expected from a chair or whether it is right to limit ourselves to a human POV regarding perception of sensations) is the reason why the chair has no individual self.
Ed Schulte 50+
Re:Yes, Hawkins is quite interesting.... listening to him now... juice of the ego....
Firstly re: Steiner ..yes walked with him awhile and Goeth .....Steiner's work around consciousness and its creative use of will parallels Sufsm's mundus imaginalus ....
Hawkins covers a lot of territory and it is important too maintain his Context. But again his Truth testing is the key and when one hear/reads what ever it is very productive to check the LOC of the presenter with the LOC of the Content. If those match that one kow if this is what this presenter Truly experiences OR just cut and paisted the info out of the wonderful world web of info. And what he is using is not some recently evolved HUman talent ...this the same field of energy which the I Ching access IOW "Te" I believe Steiner looked into this as did Jung. (Jung did an amazing analysis)
Back at Hawkins ...his experiences with the "Luminous white" he describes in detail and ther is no doubt they are a genuine as can be .....having the same but not the same experiences ...I can taiste his described experiences.
By the Bye you an find his very first official pub. on the web ...just Google "Power vs Force" but here again right away catch the "playful" joke he plays with the titles "Power" isn't vs or against anything so the Title is a BIB winke at the Ego's that will grab the book only to be told "Hi there how are you ego...come in and get to know yourself Intimately!!"
Again the olny danger with Hawkins is people missing the Context and getting caught up in the Force of Spiritual Ego....the biggest Ego of all. I do know you are well aware of this one but others may read this to. Tonnes of people hear about the LOC truth test and charging of tugging and testing evrything in their path. They completely miss the main requirement to doing testing ...running out of allowable letter /...and its dinner time at the Irish pub :-0
daniel hehir 20+
How was dinner at the Irish pub ...?
My father's family is Irish ... but you are in the U.S.... I guess...?
Ed Schulte 50+
and you are right Hawkins for all his ability to explicate his experiences with Non-material light .....is a westerner in that he tends to ignore the fact that the Human body IS the perfect reflector of Cosmic Mind
(and of course that is refering to All the bodies and their etheric doubles)
daniel hehir 20+
Ed Schulte 50+
ever wonder what this thread would have look like if you have of .titled it "What is the nature and.. Structure.. of Consciousness" instead .....??
IOW directly invite in such subjects as ".Etheric Vitality" as well ....the filtering of Non - material Light down into its lower life-energy form. The structure that are then objection by lower mind
daniel hehir 20+
Who do you read Ed ?
Ed Schulte 50+
wrt "who do you read" about the best way to answer that is....are you familiar with Dr D. R. Hawkins ?? his "Power vs Force" and up through "Transcending the Levels of Consciousness"
well ...not just the books BUT the 'Level of Consciousness' testing method is what I use to select what I read. ( Google Hawkins Map of Consciousness)
IOW anything from the 475 and up through the 660 ...is for pleasure of the soul....the latest HHtDL on Compassion is an LOC 600 .. example. This range causes the inflow of Etheric Vitality and YES lingering JOY !!! ...hmmm now I am getting a whispering "my yoke is easy and my burden is light" here ...wonder where that is coming from :-)
That LOC range also includes the Sufi Poets ...for so long mis-understood by western intellectuals as some sort of "erotic live" thingy ....but are now understood and applied as reference of truth everywhere now.. that covers the basics ...
but really the bottom line is ..the old sage advice ...
."everything you ever need to know, is right there, on the back of your eye lid" is what I always return to. .
how about you re: "reading"
daniel hehir 20+
Just between you and I ....Rudolf Steiner is my main man... If you haven't read his work then you should take a good long look at it...
As for the back of my eye lids... Its a long hard climb.... but I guess we can get all the way from here to there... even if we've gotta walk a million miles by candle light.....
daniel hehir 20+
daniel hehir 20+
Tim
This "meme" concept is actually a pretty interesting vending in RD pattern of thinking.. as he has always been shouting material ! material ! material ! .and now he's (excuse the pun.. evolved) to a higher level of a debate that begins to sound almost . shall we say . immaterial. After all, an idea is nothing mysterious..or is it ?
If you can venture away from your box a little bit Tim, take down your barriers to the word spirit. (this is where I'm trying to build the bridge) replace the word,if you will,with consciousness, and don't let my slightly provocative interchanging of the two disturb you.
The whole "meme" idea is something that RD proposes, something that lives in the consciousness of people, wanders about in our consciousness from person to person, culture to culture, perhaps one day, taking over the whole world...yes, we agree, everyone on the planet, yes the world is round
That the focus is now turned toward consciousness and ideas, RD might get his foot in the door to some higher truths... but he would never admit it. never call them spiritual.. he would surely find another word, another concept, so that it wouldn't smell of anything spiritual.. even if the "content of the(his) concept" happened to be exactly the same as what I might call spirit. He would be forced to disagree because he has invested his whole life proving the "scientific fact" that there is no such thing as spirit..
As much as I pity RD with his poverished perspectives and his little world of arrogance and disdain, I must admit I felt a sense of relief for him when he finally reached the path of searching in the realm of consciousness of the answers to the real mystery of man. a sense of compassion arose in me.(compassion is almost a religious feeling) for a man that has been searching so hard for so long and finally started to look for his answers in the immaterial world.. the spreading of an idea world, the invisible or spiritual world .. if you will
daniel hehir 20+
I see that your discussion is soon ending. It's amazing how many people are interested in these questions. They are important ones.
You asked me Ted for a closer definition of "immaterial" I feel like I have been writing a lot about just this.
If you can find where I wrote the example of the triangle... this is one aspect of it.
The "idea" triangle is immaterial.... we can draw one...your idea of triangle must have the same rules of construction as my idea... this is an objective truth... as is geometry and mathematics..
When I bring the word " soul and spirit " into the picture then things start getting interesting.. but if I just used the words ..."feeling and thinking or feeling and consciousness.. or self consciousness" then the amount of antipathy generated is somewhat less.
Check out what I just wrote to Frederic..about adrenaline.. or triptomine .. or substances produced by the body at all.... are they the cause of the emotion or are they..."merely a by-product" .. I squeezed that one in again !
Take a look at the parachute jumper analogy. I try hard to point out that the substances in the body are being produced by an emotion... just as the neural firing is being produced by a thought....Thoughts and emotions are as immaterial as you can get.. consciousness is immaterial...
When you ask about energy, one might be inclined to ask what type of energy you are referring .. as there are many types of energy.... some visible and measurable and some not... take light for example... is light itself visible.. or is light something becomes visible when it hits an object ? We have learned about color as being different splitting of the light... that the light holds the colors within itself... the presence of all color is within the light.. but isn't color only visible when the light hits an object.. as the glass that splits the light up in segments? It depends how you look at it I guess.
Tim Colgan 50+
The discussion of platonic ideas or forms is indeed interesting. But I can't think of anything significant to add. Does that imply that consciousness can not be broken down to processes of matter, energy, time and space? I'm not convinced.
I like your parachute example. Does make one think about the interconnectedness of the outside world to our individual consciousness.
Think of consciousness this way. Our brain is a complex filter. It receives lots of stimuli from the outside world and through electro/chemical processes which we are only starting to understand, selects those stimuli which are considered most pertinent to focus on. Part of this filtering process involves combining current stimuli with memories from the past in order to prioritize what to focus on. What finally emerges from the filter is our current conscious thought.
As I mentioned before - I'm open to the existence of something other then matter, energy, time and space to be involved in the process. But it would have to be identified.
The concept of forms does seem to fit into the picture. Our brain/filter does work by identifying patterns. We learn, through experience, to identify classes of items - trees, dogs, chairs. Some characteristics of these items share common characteristics - color, shape. The fact that some forms, such as triangles and circles, have such "pure" qualities to them is indeed an interesting fact. Anyone else have input on this one?
daniel hehir 20+
You really got a lot of interest on your topic Has rel. outlived its usefulness
People are really burning to find some real answers these days. I see you've only got a short while left on it. What are you going to start next? I find that there goes a lot of my time to following up this site. But it is rewarding. There are some people out there that have over 500+... I guess they don't have much social life... It must take years to get so many thumbs up... I don't care too much about that though. I find that to be of little importance..
I would like to identify things more for you Tim, but it seems that what ever present of that which I call the spiritual you still don't really want to give that idea any real weight or content of the concept. If I was to point to not only the "content" of the thought (triangle) but furthermore the energy or activity in your minds eye that could call forth this inner picture.. this energy is perhaps something that could be identified on an MRI machine... this activity we could give a name... I would call it the activity of the spirit ...scientists won't like that word... call it the "pre-neural-firing entity" or PNFE to sound really scientific... with all due respect.. there is something there to define, to identify, and in this discussion, I feel like the gap has been closed a tiny little bit with some open minds, but it's funny the people who really have caught the RDS... or (richard dawkins syndrome) are the hardest nuts to crack... It's like they have something to protect .... something that they are terribly afraid of being pushed off their thrown.... It's like a part of their identity ... in some strange way.... Just see how fired up they get when you start shaking at its foundation.... they say "we have the science, we have the fossils.... " and the fossils they indeed have.. but their thinking activity that put that whole puzzle together is in fact the purely spiritual entity which they themselves deny...
Tim Colgan 50+
Somebody in another conversation has referred to "Confirmation Bias", something which we all are prone to. But if you think it's comical to see how fired up people who base their thinking on science get, you should just imagine how nonsensical it appears when someone's foundation is as flimsy as spirit.
I've told you several times I'm open to the existence of unknown influences on life. But it's up to you to give "real weight or content" to the concept.
daniel hehir 20+
There is surely a spiritual dimension to music, but to go into this nowwill take us too far off the path of the discussion...
daniel hehir 20+
You ask for a concept of the spirit.. a concept you can ..."weigh" ??!!?? This is perhaps the root of the whole problem here... The people who "claim" to have the "scientific thinking" ..the materialists ... are not really interested in this concept at all... specifically for the reason that you cannot "weigh" it....! I've tried to fill this need of yours and actually a need that many others share with you.. It's not an easy task...
For the first reason, there seems to be a type of blockage... like your channel is not working or not receiving... your not open to hear anything that doesn't fit in with our understanding of the world... your not alone in this.. it's actually a pretty rampant perspective on life... almost like a virus or as your hero R.Dawkins might call it a "meme". I haven't yet to fill that concept with any "weight" as you call it... but it seems to me to have, paradoxically as it may sound, a certain parallel to what I'm trying to get at.. His "idea" ...that "ideas" spread throughout the world, through human thinking, and after a certain number of years.. the idea that is the strongest..(as in his thought box of the biological evolutionary process that has later manifested itself into the realm of ideas) This meme that RD is getting at... can you weigh it or measure it ?? ... of course you can't ... It exists only on the "ideal plane" This exemplifies my previous comment perfectly.. RD can completely go along with the evolutionary process of an "idea" ... but only if it follow his thought "model" that he has invested his whole life and identity to build up... He could never open up to the ideas of the spiritual because he has invested so incredibly much of his "self" that he would have to offer in order to even begin to bend in his way of thinking... His thoughts are "frozen in the pattern", "stuck in the model"of his narrow understanding of the evolutionary process.
CONTINUED FURTHER DOWN
Tim Colgan 50+
I was simply using your terminology. You said:
"I would like to identify things more for you Tim, but it seems that what ever present of that which I call the spiritual you still don't really want to give that idea any real weight or content of the concept.."
No, I see no "real weight or content of the concept".
And yes, that is the crux of the problem. I'm willing to use the word as a filler word, to represent something that we don't yet understand, but that might in the future be explained in terms of "matter, energy, space and time". You refused that definition. I was open to use the word in the sense of the quintessence, that by which the whole is greater then the sum of the parts. You said your definition includes something more.
All I can see is that you want to give "spirit" some mystical definition. Something that only an authority such as one who is deemed enlightened or has advanced knowledge of holy scripture could understand. That, to me, is a dangerous concept. It represents relinquishing control over your thought process and handing over power to someone else. See the danger?
Colleen Steen 500+
These comment threads often end up being discussions about science vs. spirituality. Those two concepts can and do co-exist in my opinion. One is not better than the other. We all have our own experiences which provide us with the information we use to form our opinions.
daniel hehir 20+
I don't by any means claim to be "enlightened" or have any advanced knowledge of the scriptures. I must admit that I do perhaps have some radical ideas about different things that can easily provoke people that perhaps haven't wandered the same path as me through life.. If I can't help you out to open your ideas to encompass the concept spirit than maybe some like Colleen can.. Here is a woman with an amazing life story.. She is right there in front of you (at least on your pc) .. ask her how it is in the spirit world.. she can tell directly what the "content" of the word is. Ask her about the energy "BODY" ... an entity of light, a form of herself in the light !! ... no ... not the light... but stronger than the light, brighter than any "physical light" ... an independent existence of an "etheric" light body.. where Colleen says she has access to all knowledge... as if it is placed out in front of her for her taking !! What in the world is this phenomenon that so many people who have had NDE tell about ? Is it just a lack of oxygen to the brain..or some other bio / chemical explanation that doesn't hold water
I have never experienced the spiritual world in an awake state of consciousness but just the same, I can construct a logical understanding of it with the fundamental tools of thinking itself... Our thinking is its own editor, it corrects itself, it grasps concepts of the immaterial world as well as the material world. What we fill the concepts with is experiencial. A person like Colleen has a "fuller" concept of the energy bodies of our being than most of us do, but I can grasp it with my imagination and form a more or less complete (lion) concept of what it is... I can assume and except the realities of the world without necessarily experiencing them fully myself. My concept is not as complete... but within the ability of my thinking to "connect concepts" to "fill out" with other concepts, that is what leads us all forward on the road to truth.