- Lawrence Burns
- Sheffield
- United Kingdom
This conversation is closed. Start a new conversation
or join one »
Oxford, Cambridge and Ivy League Universities are often revered above others. What do people make of this?
Oxford and other Ivy League universities have the reputation of being fine institutions that educate their students rigorously. They are viewed by many as being at the top of the pecking order and their degrees are viewed as a bench-mark for students. Competition for places is high so the Universities get their pick of the students as their degrees are so sought after. They are often seen as a key into the high end of professions such as law and banking. The academics are highly respected and viewed as an authority in their area of study.
I sat my undergraduate degree at Oxford University - the workload was considerably higher than on the corresponding courses at other Universities so it was a challenge in that sense. Beyond this and the ancient buildings though, I didn't find it particularly special. There is this aura about the place that it must be full of brilliant people and often people are amazed in my home town of Sheffield when I mention that I have studied there. There is still a huge class association with Oxford. I also find it worrying that people would look up to graduates and professors of these institutions like they are authorities. Naturally a lot of graduates and professors could be happy to agree with this! It's tempting to go along with the view that these institutions are simply the bees-knees, particularly after working so hard in them but I wonder if everybody thinks this. It sometimes saddens me when I hear people express regret that they didn't 'get in' to sit a course at Oxford as if this means that they must be less intelligent than somebody who did 'get in'. Some people never seem to let this go. My experience was that the students and professors are really just another mixed-bag - most are nothing special, some are pretty talented and a lot of them in my view can become quite arrogant and narrow-minded.
I wonder what people's perceptions of these universities are? Should they be so revered?
christine vincent
My father obtained is PhD from Cambridge as a mature student (! was 9 when he started his 3 years at Cambridge). Both my parents were academics and I did what it a seems a number of academic children do and i rebelled at 16 against education and left school with very few qualifications. I went on to work and after being incredibly bored for 3 years in the public sector went back to education but into what would have been then polytechnics. I did not at 21 have any real understanding of the hierarchy of further and higher education, I just knew i wanted to have a life where i could earn money to live. 25 years later I am now an academic - how history repeats itself in a University which is certainly not ivy league and believes in inclusion and widening participation in being world class. Before i went to work there 4 years ago, I did have the opportunity to work with a number of higher education institutes and recognised that quality is quality whatever age an institution has. Quality is based upon the whole student experience, not just what goes on in the classroom.
Now I loved living in Cambridge and I found the whole idea of gowns and ritual exciting as a child looking in but it wasnt what I wanted as a 21 year old. i wanted skills and experiences that would help me get a job and I really didnt see myself as an academic. I saw my father as one, someone who researched within a positivist paradigm and added to the research community. Did it give him a good life getting a PhD from Cambridge? yes it opened doors but his hard work made him the man he is.
There is a hierarchy in all levels of education - we are now looking at free schools and academies and society will persuade us that we need to choose the best for our child. I agree but the best is not necessarily the Ivy League. the best is what you experience overall in making you the person that you are today which could be the local college, Open University or Oxbridge.
Guillaume Regis
I found this comment of yours quite interesting ‘Now I loved living in Cambridge and I found the whole idea of gowns and ritual exciting as a child looking in but it wasn’t what I wanted as a 21 year old. I wanted skills and experiences that would help me get a job and I really didn’t see myself as an academic’
I think the difference for you is that the persons closet to you i.e. your parents were academics and did wear the gown so for you it was not a great leap. I too was able to go into higher (arts) education, this was because my Father studied at Lincolns Inn and also graduated from Southbank Polytechnic. My late dear mother used to show me pictures of my father in his gowns, so obviously I could place myself there too. I grew up on a ‘sink’ council estate and went to a rough school in London East End, I always had ideas ‘above my station’ and did what I could to physically and mentally get out. Yes I have been called ‘full of it’ ‘pretentious’ and ‘up my own a…’ in the past but I was only falling back on heritage, valuing books and academia like dad! Although in no way I am saying that I have achieved great heights in my career, the difference is that I am determined that my son is given the support (by his parents) to do so.
christine vincent
Leo Taylor
That brings us to the subject of Philosophy. If we were to change all those erroneous, harmful, or just unwanted thoughts who would we be as a person? Would our personality change and to what extent? Although those questions may be better suited for another thread.
Sheryl Gorsuch
And the study for those who want the published source http://www.scribd.com/doc/49309574/Estimating-the-Return-to-College-Selectivity-over-the-Career-Using-Administrative-Earning-Data
Leo Taylor
I imagine that the ivy leagues have that belief structure on their side. I am also aware that there are other aspects to these schools reputation, such as having a more logical basis for belief than stepping on a crack. In regards to your friend’s regret that they did not get in the graduates arrogance about graduating, I can see these emotional responses as two sides to the same coin rooted in the belief about these schools.
But hey, if we can find a logical way to abolish these beliefs I would be happy to hear. In my case I never went to college and instead spent my time and money learning practical knowledge and being self-employed. While today my wife and I are both successful and our college friends are worried during this economy we both still have that splinter in our minds eye about getting that darn degree. It certainly has not hurt us by not having it, but that belief about going to college is a bit of a nag. Kind of like a demon we just cannot shake.
If anyone knows of mental techniques to shake those erroneous beliefs then please share.
Lawrence Burns
Jay Chatterjee
To me it seems that- many of us read great books, watch great movies, listen great songs, attend great lectures etc (which collectively referred to as "education") but we hardly learn anything from those. As a person we remain the same; same corrupt, same dishonest, same hypocrite, follow the same sycophancy.
"Education" no longer grooms people to become a better, civilized human being. It only teaches us the art and knowledge to serve our master (employer), gather degrees (to distinguish ourselves from others) and most importantly, accumulate money by whatever means deemed necessary. It enables us to survive with a degree of personal comfort, but hardly prepares us to dream of a better world. The confusion may be little clear if you see the "elite" universities or even the formal education, as a whole, in that light.
Tanzi Gill
Jay Chatterjee
Guillaume Regis
Jay Chatterjee
I can not say much about British universities per se (although I got PhD admission in Cambridge but ultimately did not join there). I have/had few friends and colleagues from those universities and also visited many of those institutions in UK. I can safely say that same "elitism" is there in many other countries, including USA. Here ivy league universities are more like exclusive, select club of privileged people ("around 80% of the students in such institutions are from rich and powerful people in US and around the world") who are not necessarily the best or the brightest. An "education" from such "clubs" (rather than universities) allow students to earn and establish the most valuable asset (more important than talent and hard-work), i.e networking, for anyone to succeed in current situation (probably all over the world). That's how the exceedingly high tuition fees are justified (to the students and their parents). Many such ivy league universities resemble more like big corporate houses who do business with "education". If we see it that way, a lot of confusions will be clear.
For more detail one can read two excellent books on the subject- 1) "Heraclitean Fire: Sketches from a Life Before Nature" by famous biologist, Erwin Chargaff. Here is an brief excerpt from one chapter in that book- http://jaychatterjee.blogspot.com/2010/12/great-dilema-of-life-sciences.html .
2) "The Price of Admission" by Pulitzer prize winning journalist Daniel Golden, where he showed, "how America's ruling class buys its way into elite colleges and universities – and who gets left outside the gates".