- Joe Fletcher
- Grand Rapids, MI
- United States
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What is your vision for a (nearly) perfect society.
If you could make your own vision of humanity, what would it look like?
What type of economic system, social structure, and government, as well as their roles would you propose?
What will humanity be like?
What will our neighborhoods look like?
Education, infrastructure, anything really.
Heres the hard part, how do you (we) achieve this vision?
Muzakir Ijaz
As perfect society will be a place which completely negates the principle of ‘survival of the fittest’, as this is the root cause of all the social evils. A society which encourages that innate moral value system will have the capacity to become the perfect society. And the biggest hurdle in this is the current monetary system which purely favors the principle of ‘survival of the fittest’. We have throw out this monetary system and replace it with a pure moral based monitoring system where people should be evaluated according to their moral standings and not the material worth do they have.
Tanzi Gill
Jak Xenon
achieve this through developing our future citys as renewable havens. all roofs are composed of solar panels. use of thermal venting and hydro electricity from rainfall. of course wind power too. build these electrical inputs into our societies so we can function with free electricity and the rest will fall in place.
Vernon Nolan
However, it is not for us to devise the way for future generations to follow. This has been a serious flaw in our history. The offspring’s were induced to follow the guidance of their elders. Now see what a mess in which we have landed. Whether they follow capitalism, socialism, or any other creed, is entirely their choice. The only thing we can do is ensure that future leaders are aware of all the options and the pitfalls associated with each regime. It is important that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past by trying to impose our beliefs on to those who will be responsible for the future.
Right now In Liberia and Egypt they are contemplating new ways to run their countries. They want a kind of democracy, but not the type operating in the West. The primary objectives are 'freedom' and 'equality'. All this must fit with the Muslim faith, though non-sectarian administrations have been mentioned.
It is useful for us to discuss the various forms which could evolve. And, I believe, this might influence the outcome. Whether, they will keep money in it's present form or get rid of it, will be a vital factor. Money has served mankind very well in the past, but now it has grown into a monster. Freedom will never be complete until money is eliminated from our society.
All the complaints about what is happening are due to money. Corruption, greed, tyranny, are all due to money. Eliminating it, immediately destroys the power bases of the enemies of mankind. Living without money requires a complete change from everything we are used to. Trade, exchange, barter, etc, will no longer be relevant. It will just be people helping each other to get whatever they need. There will be no reciprocity. Everyone will just do the best they can.
Joe Fletcher
Letitia Falk 10+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5uGLbV5zVo&feature=youtu.be
And here's a great TED talk about non-monetary incentives. Basically the idea is that people aren't as motivated by money as we might believe and volunteerism of some kind just might work
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html
Joe Fletcher
Salim Solaiman 50+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Salim Solaiman 50+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
100 years ago, fundamental level of food and shelter was very different than today. even today it is very different in nepal and the US. in a hundred years, it will probably change as much as it changed in the last hundred.
it is like that carrot tied in front of the donkey, we never get any closer.
Salim Solaiman 50+
Do you think 100 years back human being had very much different calorie intake for SURVIVAL.
Though standing TODAY I defintely am not talking about standard of 100 years back.
SURVIVAL need of shelter, Clothing, hygene & health definitely differs due to environmental factors, so it should specific to the geography.
What is your carrot that is with in the tongue length of the donkey?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
i predict that the fundamental level will include a computer, a cell phone, personal flying suit and similar things a hundred years from now.
Salim Solaiman 50+
No existance of any kind of healthcare or hygiene for anyone in poor part (it must not be in 3rd world I guess , it's somewhere else) of the world ?
Is it so ?
Really ?
Well here the subject is about "vision for (nearly) perfect Society"
So carrot of Fundamental are far away from Donkey's moutn but carrot that includes computer , cell phone, personal flying suits etc are just inside the mouth of Donkey , is it so ?
If so I am more than happy to get those extras.....:D
Krisztián Pintér 200+
it is pointless to draw a line and say: that is the minimum level. every single achievement is just another step in the infinite staircase we are walking on.
Joe Fletcher
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Orlando Hawkins 20+
The truth of the matter is, this is not going to happen if we continue to embrace an ideology like capitalism.
So my vision of a (nearly) perfect society will be one that is based on cooperation/mutual aid of individuals. A society that embraces egalitarian values. A society in which the domination of nature does not serve as a pre-condition to the domination of human over human. A society in which the ecological systems are managed and conserved. A society in which we understand the biological complexities and ways to maximize their well-being. Pretty much an ecologically based anarchist society in which technology is not disruptive but helpful.
In other words a world without capitalism and the repudiation of the symbolic nature of money.
Thomas Jones 100+
How would we do this?
Steven Puplett
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Thomas Jones 100+
Steven Puplett
Therefore and sadly it will take a social breakdown to stimulate the search for alternative social designs. This has been the case throughout human history. Our current system is not working. Unless people are aware of, or knowledgeable about what is needed, they will continue to repeat the same mistakes--war, recession, boom and bust, hunger, poverty, and much unnecessary human suffering Therefor when it does collapse if people are aware of such a system then maybe we can see such a system that the only way i can see a transition i hope there is a easier way thou, i m open to idea's i know i don't have all the answers.
Orlando Hawkins 20+
With all honesty I do not have a precise way of coming about this. I mean anything I say will be just pure speculation but if you are interested I will nonetheless give it a shot.
I strongly believe that thoughts, perceptions, values, etc have its origins in the human mind/brain. I think questions pertaining to any sort of social and political philosophy is really a matter that extends to psychology, biology and neuroscience. This perhaps may be an odd way of looking at it and this by no means state that looking at things politically, economically and socially are not useful. Perhaps the true nature of what I'm trying to say is lies beyond the relationship between social and political economies in correspondence with human behavior and may actually be on a more conscious, psychological and neuroscientific level.
The best way I can describe what I am saying is this:From this perspective one should pay attention to the role ideologies play on the human mind and how accepting and believing certain beliefs to have a certain significance impacts human awareness and thought and how these contribute to human actions. For example, with capitalism (in the U.S.) we are taught that conspicuous consumption, materialism and global competition are things that are to be valued. Believing/accepting this to be true and significant has profound effects and from personal experience this is what I see: imperialism, poverty, inability to climb the social ladder etc.
Money is nothing more than a symbol and it is by giving credence to this symbol that we allowed a dollar bill, something that can instantly lose its value when ripped up, to ruin our lives and yet be a symbol for hope.
And as Steven pointed out, unless people are aware of the power given to money and how ideologies and language influence the mind, we will continue to make the same mistakes and I think the mistake that we are making is by basing our lives off a dangerous symbol.
Thomas Jones 100+
It seems you have fairly deep foundational principles that will need to be addressed if we are going to operate without capitalism and without a symbolic means of representing wealth - money.
I do think money is "symbolic" (obviously) but it is more than that. It is also a "medium of exchange" - a function that is facilitated precisely because of money's symbolic nature. So beyond its symbolism, it is also fundamental to a process that is very real: exchange.
It is not something I have given much thought to but I have always felt money arose as a result of underlying human attributes - much as the ones you mention - and that, in many ways, it is a symbol of our own desire for security. This "symbol" represents, amongst other things, the ability to acquire something I may need or want at a later date; and having this ability provides a sense of security.
If we felt secure, without knowing we could exchange this symbol for, say, a chicken or a bag of rice, in a week's time, we would not need it.
Once we invented money, it provided such a sense of security (false security many would say) that it has become ubiquitous.
Of course, aside from any underlying human motives (for security, status, etc,) it is still a highly functional medium.
A "major" problem with a symbol is it can be manipulated, at will. As we learn to manipulate this symbol (that is also a medium of exchange) we see people who do so, for their own personal gain (the Madoffs, etc.) but we also see it being done by institutions, including entire nations. We engage in a manipulation of "the symbol" with, it seems, little understanding of the outcomes such manipulation will have on the functional reason we have money which is to facilitate the exchange of goods and services.
If we knew what we were doing, we would not have meltdowns like '08
But I cannot imagine how we would operate without money. Unless we revert to local, small-scale, agrarian communities of, say, 250 people or so.
Vernon Nolan
Steven Puplett
buy things, isn’t the Earth still the same place? Aren’t there still goods on
the store shelves and land to grow crops? It is just the rules of the game
that we play by that are obsolete and cause so much suffering.
The existence of money is hardly ever questioned or examined, but let’s
consider our use of money. Money itself does not have any value. It is just
a picture on a cheap piece of paper with an agreement among people
as to what it can buy. If it rained hundred dollar bills tomorrow, everyone
would be happy except the banker
It is claimed that the so-called free-enterprise system creates incentive. This may be true, but it also perpetuates greed, embezzlement, corruption, crime, stress, economic hardship, and insecurity. In addition, the argument that the monetary system and competition generate incentive does not always hold true. Most of our major developments in science and technology have been the result of the efforts of very few individuals working independently and often against great opposition. Such contributors as Goddard, Galileo, Darwin, Tesla, Edison, and Einstein were individuals who were genuinely concerned with solving problems and improving processes rather than with mere financial gain. Actually, very often there is much mistrust in those whose incentive is entirely motivated by monetary gain, this can be said for lawyers, businessmen, salesman and those in just about any field.
resource-based economy, a holistic social and economic system in which the planetary resources are held as the common heritage of all the earth's inhabitants. The current practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant, counter-productive, and falls far short of meeting humanity's needs.
Simply stated, within a Resource Based Economy we will utilize existing resources - rather than money - to provide an equitable method of distribution
Vernon Nolan
We just have not got our priorities right. The age old Capitalist expression about acting in one own best interests by making maximum profits, should really read. Acting in your own best interests means living in peace and harmony with your community.
Let's get practical. I have an idea that I shall post shortly describing a possible course of action to resolve the impending crisis. It is not perfect and all suggestions and constructive criticism will be welcome.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
egalitarianism. i see you have a nice pair of sunglasses. not everyone can afford sunglasses. so i urge you to sell it for, say, 5 dollars, and send the money over to madagascar right now. hm, and about that suit ...
Thomas Jones 100+
Are you even capable of engaging in a mature conversation with someone who does not share your misguided idealism without being petty and condescending?
Do you think this is somehow witty? Intelligent, perhaps?
It is nether: It is banal, and adolescent at best.
I see you are quite bright. Not everyone is bright. So I urge you to, say, use your intelligence and drop this whole "if-you're-not-a-buddhist-capitalist-you-must-be-an-idiot" thing you've got going on.
If you have something constructive to say, say it.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
i don't want to oppress other people. i want to stop other people oppressing me.
you can think equality is good. i don't. you can think capitalism is bad. i don't. i don't want any of you telling me what to do, instead of convincing me what to do.
message to everyone: please stop commanding other people what to do. you are not worthy. nobody is.
Orlando Hawkins 20+
I would also like to add that I may be critical of capitalism but I too am a capitalist and I am in a way responsible for everything that I criticize it for (the clothes I by, the food and candy I eat, the environmental hazards that I contribute to, etc) but I am aware of this and I try to be mindful of my actions. When I talk about how ideas and values have an influence on the human action I am not depriving the individual of personal responsibility, I'm just saying that sometimes their actions are not of their own volition but is created and motivated by other factors.
I've discussed this issue with Krisztian before and he had interesting points but I never once stated that capitalist needed psychologist. As a matter of fact that does not sound like me. I just stated that capitalism is the enabler of excessive self-interest(w/ excessive self-interest being a human quality or a product of human nature) and by doing so it allows this excessive self-interest to come about in destructive way, such as theft, greed, murder over frivolous things, divorce over money, budget cuts, etc.
As an individual who knows what its like to be homeless and all the way at the bottom of the social ladder my perspective is purely empirical being that I can relate to the everyday individual. At the same time I'm not saying capitalism is entirely bad. If practiced right it can be a good system but I'm not surprised that it turned out the way it is now and this is because it is not based on principles that we can say are good ones. At its core, capitalism is individualistic and allows individuals to act in their self-interest.Anarchism at its core is not based off individualism but instead its all about community.
I do know this: all that we are talking about goes back to human mind and perception. This is the main reason why the public relations industry was created: to control the human mind/interest. This of course is not what I'm advocating.
Thomas Jones 100+
I appreciate your candour.
QUOTE: "i don't want to oppress other people. i want to stop other people oppressing me."
That is a fair statement but, a far as I can tell, no one is oppressing you. However, in your zeal to "not be oppressed" you have a tendency to act as if the world should use your value system to govern itself.
For all I know, your system (whatever it is) might be the most effective system (or non-system) ever imagined but, the fact is, there are almost seven billion of us on the planet and we each get to choose the system we want to use. We choose individually and collectively. You might not like some of the choices we have made but then, by your own admission, you do not want to "oppress" by imposing your particular worldview on others.
So what's the "logical" extension of all of this? We accept that others are free to make choices (individually or collectively) that we might not endorse but we respect their decision and, if we are inclined, offer what we believe to be superior options for people to choose from.
This works best if we refrain from calling people who have not chosen "our path" idiots, murderers, inherently violent, and so on. Not that you have used all those phrases but you get my point.
QUOTE: "you can think equality is good. i don't."
I'm not following you: You don't think equality is good? What do you mean?
QUOTE: "you can think capitalism is bad. i don't."
I don't think any reasonably functioning system is "good" or "bad." I think they are systems that are as effective, or ineffective, as the people who operate within them.
QUOTE: "i don't want any of you telling me what to do, instead of convincing me what to do."
I think the idea is to share openly and let each other make our own choices. I'm all for a challenge; I quite enjoy it. But I have no desire to really change anyone's mind.
I would appreciate it if you stopped being so dismissive of people you do not agree with. But, again, it's your choice.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
you don't find any recommendations on my part that would involve forcing other people in any way. however, you can often find me arguing people who do support such ideas.
also please note that i have the right to call immoral things immoral. even if i hurt the feelings of that person. and i also can call ideas "inherently violent" if i so desire, as long as i can demonstrate my reasons for it. i can not, however, make other people follow my path using force. nor calling for using force. nor hinting the use of force.
Thomas Jones 100+
I undersand your position, you are a free-enterprise kind of guy.
My point is your assertion that others "should" do anything contains an implicit declaration that what you are telling them they should do is superior to what they choose to do by themselves. And from someone who says no one "should" tell others what to do, this is a contradiction.
You might believe a free market economy is a panacea, fine. Say that. But to continue and say Bignoseistan "SHOULD" practice free market capitalism is a violation of your own stated ethos ... that no one "should" tell anyone else how to live.
In fact, for YOU to say anyone SHOULD or SHOULD NOT do ANYTHING is a contradiction of what appears to be your own highest ideal.
QUOTE: "you don't find any recommendations on my part that would involve forcing other people in any way."
Again, when you say a group of people SHOULD do something, the force is tacit. It may not be physical force - in fact, it is quite clear you are not advocating physical force of any kind. But there is an implied force whenever we tell someone they SHOULD do something. Perhaps a moral force, or even an emotional force but it is still a force.
QUOTE: "... however, you can often find me arguing people who do support such ideas."
Frankly, your arguments often come across as you simply telling people they SHOULD do what you think they SHOULD do; and, if they don't agree, they are in some way mentally deficient. (For example, "Wow, you have managed to be wrong and meaningless at the same time," or whatever it was you said to that fellow whom you obviously did not agree with. Not a particularly Buddhist approach, I might add!)
If (IF!!!) you think no one should tell anyone else what they should do or should not do, then (THEN!!! "If/Then") then you should stop telling other people what they should or should not do -- Even if they are doing something you think they should not do ... like censoring the internet.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
i'm perfectly OK if you seek a leader for yourself. i'm also perfectly OK if you seek for servants to lead.
i'm also perfectly OK with any opinions, but this does not mean i don't find many opinions perverted, wrong, evil or demented. i do find many opinions such. and i will call these opinions as such. for example i will continue to call anyone who seeks control over other people immoral and/or intellectually lazy.
Orlando Hawkins 20+
As far as my sunglasses a friend of mines actually gave it to me since they had an extra pair. The suit, shirt and tie I wore actually was a birthday gift. I am also aware that the clothes that I am wearing were perhaps created from a 12 year old whose labor was exploited but then again I can't go to a job interview naked can I? Also I do not own the sunglasses anymore. Any guesses where I sent them?
Before you judge a book by its cover please get your facts straight. I have nothing to prove to to you but what I will say is before you blame me, blame the leaders of the world who think that exploiting the labor of individuals in third world countries to serve their own agenda is a virtuous act and then make it nearly impossible for others to not engage to these affairs to a certain degree.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
i don't blame you anything else but being wrong and being inconsistent. and being not honest, most likely with yourself, not with us. this idea of equality and blaming government and blaming wall street is just a big setup in order to ease the mind. there is not a single egalitarian on this planet who thinks wealth should be transferred from him to the poor. or else he could just do it on his own. everyone believes we need to take from the "rich" (which means richer than us). what a strange coincidence!
Thomas Jones 100+
Really?
And therein lies your inability to see that which you decry in others first in yourself.
As our old friend Matthew would put (perhaps too strongly:)
You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye. – Matthew 7:5
Krisztián Pintér 200+
thomas jones asserts that stopping aggression using force is aggression.
for the record.
Joe Fletcher
I will not respond to any message from you as should anyone else on this forum, unless it is one that characterizes this level of civility that is expected on this forum.
And for the record it takes a lot more than an internet troll to hurt my feelings.
Have a good life.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
because as of now, you are the one attacking me, and not vice versa. and you called me troll, which is, i suppose, a civilized thing to do.
Thomas Jones 100+
thomas jones asserts that stopping aggression using force is aggression.
for the record."
-------
For the record, let me point out that Krisztián Pintér has a tendency to read into what others have said and make assertions he believes to be true, and, based on my personal observation, he is always wrong.
He also has a tendency to get petty, personal, and resorts to ad hominem attacks whenever he reaches the limits of his intellect. (Which is quite often.)
For the record.
Vernon Nolan
At present we compete with each other, and consider winning is laudable. We are encouraged to be greedy and ruthless. I believe this is against human nature and we suffer the consequences Such as fear, insecurity, violence. This is uncomfortable for most us. To change, we must try to reverse these conditions and learn to live by co-operating and communicating with each other. Acting in our own best interests is to live in peace & harmony with our communities, not in making more & more profits.
Freedom is the catch cry of all the protesters. What binds us most is money. If we trust each other and communicate fully, there is no need for money.
A future I would choose would be as follows:
All necessary work would be automated. We would follow whatever hobbies we wanted to.
Whatever we wanted could be posted on a website, and we would all help each other to get what they want.
Food, water, accommodation would always be available.
This sounds idealistic, but only because it is so different from our experience. I truly believe this would be much nearer to our true natures.
Of course, There are many details to be worked through. To implement this, take advantage of turmoil that will occur and start living this way in small groups. As we gain experience we make any beneficial amendments. Gradually, groups will merge until we all arrive at the kind of life we all want.
Steven Puplett
Thomas Jones 100+
Planet earth. Now.
(Vision complete.)
Joe Fletcher
If your fine with these things then I suppose my vision of a perfect society is one without people like you.
If you think the world is perfect you have never realy been in it.
Thomas Jones 100+
You can see the world you want to see, Joe ... I'll see the world I want to see. (And you did say "nearly.")
Have I really been in it? Hmmmm ... let's see: Born in Canada, lived in America, Kenya, China, traveled to most of the rest of the world; been in two countries when war broke out. Seen suffering you cannot even imagine unless you've seen it yourself (and not on TV), crashed a plane, had a son kidnapped ... etcetera.
And you?
But, and this is probably the difference, I do not watch the news or read newspapers ... I'll bet you do.
As horrible as all those things you mention are, believe it or not they are a very, very, VERY small part of what is going on on planet earth right now.
By far the vast majority of us are born onto this amazing planet and get to live out our lives with surprisingly few "traumas" ... and the ones we do get to experience seem to make us stronger and more appreciative.
Should we "fix" all the horrors you see? Sure, why not? ... But it will have to start with you, Joe. Are you willing to start there?
What would you like to focus on?
It's your call. And you won't get to hit the rewind button or get a "do over!"
Joe Fletcher
Steven Puplett
Colton Youngren
"Have I really been in it? Hmmmm ... let's see: Born in Canada, lived in America, Kenya, China, traveled to most of the rest of the world; been in two countries when war broke out. Seen suffering you cannot even imagine unless you've seen it yourself (and not on TV), crashed a plane, had a son kidnapped ... etcetera.
And you?
But, and this is probably the difference, I do not watch the news or read newspapers ... I'll bet you do."
I have to say the Media and ignorant dogmas are what is making people see "evil" in the world. For me I have been around for a short time. However for the last three years I have lived as hitchhiker. I have only been Throughout the continental US and Norway (random journey my life has taken me on.) What i have experienced well; love, compassion, generosity, and acceptance. Now who have i experienced this from? Everyone all races all economic backgrounds countless generations of people. Have I seen suffering? Yes and I have suffered but there is more good in this world and i have experienced it.
Thomas Jones 100+
Here's my take: I work in my world one person at a time, starting with me and then moving out to anyone who "crosses my path."
You have crossed my path and I am going to be very direct.
If you are "realy just hoping for some clarification," ask, before you jump to conclusions.
You say my message, "cam as apathetic." I would suggest you check your assumptions at the door, particularly, when you open a conversation on a public forum.
And let me be clear, if you are attempting to initiate change it does not "begin with you AND everyone else as well;" it begins with you. Period.
If you are an inspiration, others may choose to join you. If you're not, they won't.
You say, "Maybe you should make sure to write more detailed posts when you throw a little detai you shine far brighter."
So what you are suggesting is you would like me to compensate for your tendency to jump to erroneous conclusions?
My post was sincere. It was genuine. I said exactly what I wanted to say; and I meant it.
That you chose to interpret it as you did is your responsibility, not mine. (However, now that you have asked, I am very happy to clarify my position.)
You "w to see first hand what needs to to be eradicared from this world, and I want to go out an SOB who leavess a slightly better world than the one I came into."
I suggest you start small. Start with "Joe." Discover what is amazing about "Joe." "Eradicate" anything that keeps you from seeing your own potential. Eradicate anything that is an obstacle to you actualizing your own innate skills and attributes.
If you want to make BIG changes, you have to start by making small changes.
If you have not already done so, I recommend reading about people who have "made a difference" - Gandhi, Mandela, etc. They were humble men.
QUOTE: I apolAgize for the malice in my first reply perceived or real apathy brings out my passionate side.
Apology accepted. And I trust you will forgive me for being so direct with you.
Thomas Jones 100+
I think there are one or two civilizations that have realized these ideals already ... no?
When was the last time a Dane or a Swede, started a war, went to bed hungry, or was poor?
Iceland? New Zealand? Australia? Canada? Argentina?
But if you mean on a universal, global scale, well, we do still have quite a few rogue nations. And a ways to go.
Some folks are quite optimistic and have set a "five year deadline" for peace.
Here's an interesting link: http://www.visionofhumanity.org/gpi-data/#/2011/scor
While I think these movements are laudable, I prefer a more modest approach - experience peace personally. And - with that - do what I can in my immediate "circle of influence."
Joe Fletcher
Peace, love, and compassion are ideas always worth spreading.
Steven Puplett
I Live in Australia and it is a great country but there is plenty of debt and unnecessary suffering and I am sure wherever you look around the world you can find it,not saying there is great people and great places full of kindness and selfishness there is more then you know. i problem is that we have good countries and we have third world countries this shouldn't be the case, but unfortunately its a bi product of our society for one country debt =money, money = debt so for someone to have a lot of money there's going to be a lot of debt. As well the very nature of capitalism drives us to compete against each other rather then help each other, everyone is your competitor whether it be in the classroom, in the workforce, or in the general public most of times the friends you choice to keep are because they can give you advantages and these friends may not be a person of real common interest and that are like minded, the problems lies in that money corrupts. The wealthy buy and control the politicians, courts, judges, media, police, entertainment, and even the universities. They set the agenda and the laws for their own advantage. It is the taxpayers who pay the salaries of the police while they work for the wealthy (who pay very little taxes) to violently put down peaceful protestors who threaten the status quo.
Those in positions of advantage will not yield their control willingly.
Calls for stopping wars seems to be a fruitless plea when there is so much money to be made from them. Peace is the brief interval between wars. We have many real problems as a human species, but wars should not be one of them. Wars are the supreme failure of inadequate social structures. Conflicts must be expected when people have unequal access to goods and services. Your only as free as your purchasing power. time is long overdue for us to re-examine our values and to reflect upon and evaluate some of the underlying issues and assumptions we have as a society.
Steven Puplett
The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearance.
Thomas Jones 100+
I don't consider time spent in a lively exchange as wasted. I enjoy it. And I usually learn a thing or two.
I thought your typing was the new style that has originated with texting OMG ur 2 ... w8 ... CU.
I'm very old school, I even write in full the days of the week and numbers up to ten .. Wednesday, one, two, ....
Thomas Jones 100+
Thanks for your thoughtful reply and your list of precepts.
I understand and appreciate your point of view and I think it important that a certain number of use look at the world the way you do, and act accordingly.
I also think it's important that others (well, at least, one) look at the world the way I do.
I do not think one view is better than the other, I think they both have their place.
For example, I am not THAT interested in "systems" (capitalism, democracy, socialism, religion, management, etc.) I am more interested in individuals. After all, it is individuals who create, sustain, and transform systems. (I do study systems and I even teach management but they are not my primary concerns.)
And I do not see peace as an absence of war. I see peace as a presence that can be experienced only by an individual. When enough of us experience "inner peace" then it will have an appreciable impact in the "external" world.
In my opinion, one "problem" with BIG solutions is they are very often the source of BIGGER problems, problems that we then try to solve with newer, better, and BIGGER systems.
If we expect our systems, or our environments to make us "happy" (and I believe we do) we will be continually disappointed - unless we are already happy. Then, our systems and environments (within reason) are irrelevant.
Some of the happiest people I know personally, live in "houses" that are about twelve meters square, have no electricity, have to walk several kilometres to fill a "jerry can" with water, and so on. They are joyful in conditions that would very likely render you and me non-functional.
Should we improve our systems?
Absolutely!
Will that "make us happy?"
Not if we are not already happy.
Joe Fletcher
Steven Puplett
Thomas Jones 100+
[Sorry, I originally addressed this to Steven ... but it was Joe, who made comment!]
Hi Joe,
I'm sorry, I'm not following you.
I'm sure you are using emotionally charged phrases (babies dying) for a reason. And how that ties in to a Coke campaign, I'm sure makes sense to you. But again, I am not following you.
I may be misreading you but you are coming across as angry. Are you angry?
Steven Puplett
Joe Fletcher
Some of this hard to describe to someone who didn't grow up in my generation. An age when Paris Hilton gets an hour a night on television, but wars are shunned. Where you can see a woman stoned to death, or a corrupt goverment slaughter its own citezens, without the filter of mainstream media. Growing up with globe being your neighbor, knowing their is no difference between the people of the world. Knowing the games rigged, and not beleiving the lie that everthing is allright. And having the power to change it ;)
Thomas Jones 100+
Yes, sorry for the mixup: I was responding to Joe's comment and mistakenly addressed it to you.
You do not come across as angry at all!
Steven Puplett
i can explain that the so-called free-enterprise system creates incentive. This may be true, but it also perpetuates greed, embezzlement, corruption, crime, stress, economic hardship, and insecurity. In addition, the argument that the monetary system and competition generate incentive does not always hold true. Most of our major developments in science and technology have been the result of the efforts of very few individuals working independently and often against great opposition. Such contributors as Goddard, Galileo, Darwin, Tesla, Edison, and Einstein were individuals who were genuinely concerned with solving problems and improving processes rather than with mere financial gain. Actually, very often there is much mistrust in those whose incentive is entirely motivated by monetary gain, this can be said for lawyers, businessmen, salesman and those in just about any field.
and that the ultimate survival of the human species depends upon planning on a global scale and to cooperatively seek out new alternatives with a relative orientation for improved social arrangements. If humankind is to achieve mutual prosperity, universal access to resources is essential. but it realistic doesn't to much to sway someone's opinion or invokes someone to seek change.
Thomas Jones 100+
I admire your passion. I am sure your generation is unique and you have experienced things no other generation has. That's sort of true for most generations in the last 150 years or so. Before that, things did not change much for generations at a time.
My father was a farmer. He used horses to plough and work the fields. Electricity was a "novelty" used to illuminate World Fairs and so on. It would have no "practical" use, or so the common wisdom would have it.
He lived to see people walk on the moon, pacemakers regulate heartbeats, and laptop computers!
QUOTE: "... you keep talking about how we each individually need to be happy with ourselves, and such and completely dismiss the system we live in."
I am not dismissing the system, I am focussing on the fundamental building block of the system: The individual.
We can fix "the system" - and we do need to - but if that which creates the system (that would be you and me) has not also been "changed" it will simply replace the "old system" with a similar "new system."
Changing the system is dealing with the symptoms. Changing ourselves is dealing with the cause.
We need to do both if we hope for long-term improvements.
For example, an angry person would not be very effective at promoting peace; and if that is what they wanted to do, a good first step would be to become peaceful.
Channel your passion.
(By the way, using emotionally charged phrases - like dying babies - is a very effective tool - check out "Virus of The Mind" by Richard Brodie.)
Joe Fletcher
Thomas Jones 100+
I now you were not "trying" to use a phrase. You actually did "use a phrase."
Have you noticed you react quite strongly to simple phrases? You imbue them with meaning that the author has not intended.
Again, you seem to COME ACROSS as angry (you might not be but that is the impression that your writing creates.)
If you really would like to make the changes you seem to, you might want to consider that emotionalism, in general, and anger, in particular, might be motivating to you personally, but they can also be alienating to those who you interact with.
For example, if I wanted to participate in the creation of a "perfect society" I would certainly encourage you in your effort but I would not align myself with you on any practical level. You are too volatile emotionally.
As you say, anger is not a bad thing and it does exist for a reason. Do you know what that reason is?
I know you are young and it is to be expected you will be passionate and emotional but, if you would like to be a catalyst for change, as I say, it starts with you.
--------
PS As to the number of babies dying: There are fewer deaths per capita now that at any other time in the history of this wonderful planet earth. And, yes, if we can improve on that even more, that would be a good thing.
Letitia Falk 10+
Erich Kreppenhofer
Colton Youngren
Now this is where my philosophical stance plays a huge role. I Could easily see The Venus Project as being a good example of a "Utopian" society where; resources are shared, technology is implemented to improve life, preserve nature, and where we are given necessities of life to allow us to reach our full potential.
That is a good look however in my opinion we are already in the perfect society. What i mean is, our current state is in an evolutionary process. In our short experiment with civilization not a one has lasted. Our first attempt at a global civilization will fall. I also see the change occurring and the growth persisting. I know the earth can bounce back from our impacts and life will survive. The question is "Will we survive the consequences of our actions?" Also ultimately "Can we mature as a species and step into a role of steward and not of conquer of this world?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Steven Dilloway
Joe Fletcher
Steven Dilloway
Steven Puplett
Letitia Falk 10+
Steven Puplett
Joe Fletcher
Steven Puplett
Letitia Falk 10+
Steven Puplett
Letitia Falk 10+
Anyway, in all seriousness I am so excited that these kinds of questions are on people's minds! I remember worrying about everything as a kid: Global warming and pollution and AIDS and privatization of social services...and its really exciting to be growing up and finding your place in a world where people have had enough and are ready to start doing something about these issues.
I'd like to see an economic system that encourages creating quality goods and services and is less wasteful, social structure where people cooperate instead of competing (this is probably tied to the economic system), and government that serves a function in society instead of perpetuating itself with little contact with the voters who are supposed to be in control.
If I could design things any way I'd like I'd really like to see a return to more communal living. I think that one house per family is a wasteful way of living, that high divorce rates have a lot to do with couples sharing a lot of responsibilities just between two and being each other's primary companion. And I think we've minimized very important bonds between different age groups like grandparent-grandchild relationships in our current social structure.
How to achieve these goals? I don't pretend to know but I think talking about it is a good start :) Thanks for the post!
Scott Armstrong 50+
George Santayana
Albert Hong
How to achieve this idea:
-The education system would be absolute key here. Teachers set forth mechanisms for independent learning: how to research, how to think logically, how to empathize with someone different, and how to listen.
Tony Ruiz
1. Norway has no crime, in comparison with the U.S.
2. They take care of their own. Free universal healthcare.
3. It is filled with harmony. They don't fight over religious points of views.
4. The government REALLY has the people's best interest at heart.
5. Prisons are nearly empty, schools are full, and free, forever.
6. Jobs pay well and unemployment is almost nonexistent.
John Locke
Norway's economy really revolves around three things: Oil, Tourism, and Fishing.
Tourist create a lot of pollution and if the economy is bad in other countries (USA, Europe, Etc.) then tourism is likely down.
While oil is making Norway wealthy it will not last forever. Eventaully new energy solutions will arise or the oil supply will run out and Norway will have a large problem.
Pollution and overfishing have caused fishers to lose profits and the number of fish they catch is down dramatically cauing the price of seafood to rise.
Norway has applied to become a member of the EU but has been refused several times making travel and trade to Norway more difficult than with other European countries.
Yes, Norway is a lot better of then other parts of the world (Rest of Europe, America, Etc.) but they still face many real challenges like every country/society faces.
No country is perfect and no country can be perfect. There will be people that want to harm others (Commit crime). There will be problems with illegal immigration and with the short term economy in every country. With that being said, my idea of a country that has solved many of these problems is a democratic union that is midsized in both population and land. The birthrate is zero and enemployment is low. Healthcare is recieved when born. The government has subsides food for the poor so that no one will go hungry, ever. Education is prioritized and the country creates its own power using Hydroelectric, wind, solar, nuclear, and geothermal.