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jails should be more widely known as schools
some correctional facilities are becoming a business or already are a business, the future of these businesses depends on more people to commit crimes.
the idea here is to give incentives for correctional facility businesses to fully rehabilitate people into society by means of ensuring they don't re-offend.
one incentive in western society is money.
while giving money to one of these businesses from the tax-payer for each individual that doesn't re-offend may seem like a good idea, there are many problems with this idea. one of the problems with giving individualised incentives is that the future of the business would still depend on repeat or new offenders.
however, if the tax-payer were to give incentives to a correctional facility business based on how successful it was based on statistics, eventually the rehabilitation facility would effectively be a school.
this idea was inspired by a conversation i had with Colleen Steen.
EDIT: the main premise of the thread was intended to be an effective realistic way to utilise the commercialisation of prisons, and in the process improve society, but perhaps i didn't word the topic's title very well.
instead, i have changed the topic title to better suit the conversation, just as Salim Solaiman suggested.
Michael Maskery
Ruben Ruiz
So for the sake of a safer society we do need prisons to resemble more like schools in more ways than one as these prisoners end up integrating back into our neighborhoods. But at the same time we need ot figure out how to spend more on our current shool children and reform our crrent school systems otherwise we'll be preparing our kids to fill the spots in prisons rathern than colleges and universities. I am ecouraged by the well informed and creative comments here on this subject and hope this dialog ends up a priority for the sake of a safer and more educated society.
Helen Hupe 30+
Loaay Ahmed
We need to take this a step back and look at a preventive approach. What's causing the crimes to take place? And how can we minimize these circumstances from existing? Governments need to focus on the preventive part by offering better opportunities for developing healthy minds from a young age. Prisons need to prepare prisoners on how to get back to society so they can contribute positively to their lives and to the communities. That means their KPIs should be purely on how well they prepared these prisoners for life after prison and the return to prison ratio. Society is also responsible for welcoming the newly rehabilitated fellow citizens so they can feel they have a chance of starting over. We can't punish people twice. If they did the crime and the time then they're back to a clean sheet. Otherwise, it is society that needs reform.
griffin tucker 10+
perhaps if there were more contributing factors to the KPI, such as incentives for released prisoners to prevent crime itself and encourage good behaviour once they are released? i'm not sure how this could work in a proven measurable method, any ideas?
Loaay Ahmed
In order to set the KPIs we need to breakdown the types of crimes according to behavior. Character is influenced by two factors: nature (innate qualities that we are born with) and nurture (the environment we grow up in). Promoting and facilitating change will be relatively more successful among those who committed crimes mainly due to external elements like peer pressure, poor upbringing, and lack of education and vocational skills compared to those who committed crimes because they got a rush from breaking rules, causing pain to others, or simply out pure greed. Therefore, the rehabilitation process and KPIs for those two types of criminals need to be different. Such a deep structure is difficult to design in short conversations, but I guess that's why sharing ideas from everyone works wonders.
Linda Hesthag Ellwein 50+
Colleen Steen 500+
Thanks Linda:>)
LOOKS LIKE IT'S FIXED!!! HOORAY to TED!
Linda Hesthag Ellwein 50+
Salim Solaiman 50+
You are welcome !!!
Good things need to be spreaded as much as possible, you did the right thing by posting it.
A bit uncomfortable with the credit you gave which I don't deserve as I just did the copy paste job ..... but as always I am fond of your loving and kind gesture.............. :)
Note : TED Conversation needs intervention from IT experts as "REPLY" button is not working for quite sometime today
Colleen Steen 500+
Salim,
Thanks for providing those two links. She is an amazing person, and I hope you don't mind that I posted the first link on the TED page with credit to you:>)
Gisela,
You are absolutely right...we need to give them something different to learn, if we hope to see different results.
Gisela McKay 30+
Salim Solaiman 50+
So both needs to be reformed.
Here comes an actual experiment already done with jail...please check the link
http://www.goodnewsindia.com/Pages/content/transitions/tihar.html
Below is the TED talk of that person who did that http://www.ted.com/talks/kiran_bedi_a_police_chief_with_a_difference.html
Nathan Austin
Colleen Steen 500+
Nathan Austin
Penny Ghinaudo
Nathan Austin
Colleen Steen 500+
Ruben Ruiz
I say all this to make the point that what we should create is a prison system where prisoners would make their own products and take care of their own needs. In other words put them in a place that would give them the opportunity to learn skills that would teach them to be self sufficient.
Maybe this could be an alternative prison model that prisoners could choose to go into instead of a traditional prison. Having learned from my father to love and appreciate mother earth has tought me how to be a better human being and I think that this would be a great way to teach our prisoners respect and collaboration for a better future for them and their children.
I work for the LA County sheriff as a custody officer and see first hand just how this alternative way of treating and dealing with out prison and inmate populations could not only save us tax money but teache them life skills usefull once they are released into our communities.
Great question Mr. Tucker, now lets just keep brainstorming and we'll figure out the answer to one of the biggest monetary issues plaguing US and many other countries.
Linda Hesthag Ellwein 50+
Ruben Ruiz
But you bring a very important point that for the life of me I can not seem to understand how come rich nations refuse to implement viable solutions to the problems at hand that already exist in other countries. Why is this? If Norway does in fact implement priciples similar to the ones I mention and that are hopefully working to rehabilitate prisoners, then why not borrow those systems and then apply them wherever needed. And I see this unwillingness to borrow and implement great ideas from other countries that would work miracles in many other places. Things like what the Cubans started doing after the collapse of the cold war; the Cuban government started implementing an organic way of growing their food since they did not have access to fertilizers anymore. There is truth and proof to the saying "necessitiy is the mother of invention" is alive and well.
We have a program here in the LA County Sheriff that to a very small degree works a bit similar to what my father lived at that prison in my home state, Colima Mexico. About a 45-60 minute drive north of LA there is a jail complex called Pitchess Detention Center and is has lots of open land that is used for a green house and other work shops that are tended by inmates who work and train in them while in our temporay custody. I only wish that our Sheriff would expand on this idea.
Best regards Linda.
Aey Times
This question reminds me of a satire piece I've read: http://politicalirony.com/2011/06/05/a-modest-proposal/ . The most important line being at the end, suggesting that we give "our schools the resources necessary to keep our students OUT of prison".
Sandy Machado
Penny Ghinaudo
Estrella Reyes
Colleen Steen 500+
Do you think offenders are not making friends and connections while in jail now?
Sunil Verma
Colleen Steen 500+
People will not change unless s/he wants to change. I believe they need to learn skills they can use to be productive members of society when released from jail. Some offenders have some skills, and many do not. We could set up programs to teach and learn some skills from each other?
Estrella mentions the possibility of connecting with each other, sharing similar backgrounds, and probably sharing information regarding how to be successful in crime. Offenders are doing that all the time now. We somehow need to redirect them to a more productive learning experience.
Sunil Verma
Colleen Steen 500+
I also think that generally politicians and bureaucrats are not a direct threat to the safety of society. Their crime is usually corruption, as you say. So, rather than putting them behind bars, perhaps serving the community in some way would be more appropriate? What do you think?
Sunil Verma
We all know education plays a major role in building ones character but I guess there are other basic life lessons that are missing in our educational system or they are not instilled properly. Highly qualified educated Wall Street Bankers should be at least taught to not to be so greedy.
I guess my point is criminals should be punished according to their crime however if they are not going to spend all their life behind bars they should be at least given some good lessons in moral values along with some professional training to survive outside the jail compound.
Colleen Steen 500+
Unfortunately, many who are incarcerated for crime, come from backgrounds that have not taught them some very basic beneficial life lessons. This fact is no excuse for their behavior, but if they don't learn a different behavior, they are going to continue to offend.
I agree that criminals should be punished, and/or given some good life lessons according to their crime. If they are going to be released back into society, which most of them are, it would be beneficial to all of us to have them be more productive members of our societies.
Amrut Deshmukh
Emil Stolarsky 500+
Here's a couple links on the prison system they have:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html
griffin tucker 10+
perhaps other countries could adopt this system if it's proven to be successful, perhaps via the means of a system of evidence-based policy.
tishe Hires 10+
In my humble opinion, All correctional facilities are a business. How much does it cost to feed an inmate?
Per day? (of course it is a business) School is over rated. Parents, must step up, and take care of their own children!
I like your idea!! (pipe dream but good idea!) My apologies, my glass is half empty. Good luck!
Adriaan Braam 20+
But still, how do you teach someone, in a school setting, that stealing is wrong, while they love stealing?
Nowadays jail no longer seems to be a deterrent. To a homeless person it is better than home.
What may very well help in case of stealing/robbery is to have a lessening of the sentence if there is an agreement to be educated or trained in a profession, so the person can be useful to society, and so make a living.
Colleen Steen 500+
You've touched on an important piece that is being used with the "Real Justice", "Reparative" and "Diversion" programs...reduce jail time in favor of educational programs, training, and community service. I think it would be beneficial to use all of these programs more often and more effectively.
Robbie O'Brien
Kathryn Keats
Nathan Austin
Colleen Steen 500+
Your profile says that you have a lot of interesting ideas and spend time pondering interesting concepts.
How do you feel about the present system of punishment or corrections? Do you think/feel that it is working well? Do you think/feel there are some changes needed? Why do you think/feel jails and schools are the same, and how could they be very different? Thanks for your forthcoming ideas...I appreciate your ability to ponder:>)
Nathan Austin
Colleen Steen 500+
In another comment, you write..."Well when schools and prisons are compared schedule wise, there are many similarities, set things at set times, I realize it needs to be like this in order to keep the students from getting confused with scheduling, but I feel as though something could change about the whole process...i just don't know what"
I agree that schedules and organization are important to maintain order. I feel that students could participate more in the process, and have more choices regarding what s/he would study. It may help a student feel more creative and part of the process? What do you think?
griffin tucker 10+
school is supposed to be enjoyed in my opinion. if you're not enjoying school, then maybe you could come up with some ideas on how to make school better or something. maybe even a class where you play educational video games that are actually fun? (educational and fun don't always seem to mix - this should be changed)
Penny Ghinaudo
griffin tucker 10+
i also believe that there is simply no such thing as those who commit acts for which they can't be rehabilitated for - maybe the knowledge of how to rehabilitate them isn't around yet, but it's simply my belief that anyone can be taught.
boarding schools really aren't that bad, no, i was just going along with the joke that Nathan Austin made. jokes aside though, sometimes school can seem like a prison to those attending.
Colleen Steen 500+
Penny,
You ask..."what about those who commit acts for which they cannot be rehabilitated"? If we had prisons/correctional facilities that were educational, self sustaining communities, the offender could still contribute to society in some way while incarcerated?
I agree Griffin, that anyone can be taught, and maybe the method by which some people can change their life, is not yet apparent to us.
Nathan Austin
Plus it would be inexpensive to schools, it would be easy to teach the teachers what each word meant and what action that word states.
If we were able to get just one school to do this, and then see the success rates of the students getting into the career they honed in their classes. We might just be able to get government funding for maybe not all...but most high schools to do this.
Colleen Steen 500+
I totally agree that people learn better when a topic is interesting for them. So, we agree that a certain amount of organization and scheduling is important, and within those guidelines, people could have more freedom of choice regarding what they study? Sounds like BALANCE! I also agree that people would be more eager to learn, which may distract them from some behavioral problems, which means the teachers would have more time to teach, rather than deal with discipline. This sounds like a win-win situation for everyone involved!!! :>)
Nathan Austin
Jeong-Lan Kinser 200+
In a way, I would agree with your opinion the school and the prison system are similar concept. When we look back at the history of public education after the industrial revolution has been to generate median workers to know enough about the work manual for which they had to perform; a factory model. As a result, the quality of the system has been always poor as well as it has been enfluenced by other factors, such as economies, and political trend.
I do not know very much about the system, but if we find a way to effectively educate the people who are in jail, that would be a triumphantant way to reduce many problems in our society.
Nathan Austin
Christitne Scherger
I tend to disagree with the common concieved notion that schools and jail are alike. In truth jails are structured to resemble a school in that they are supposed to encourage rehabilitaion and structure. However it has been my experience that often times jail creates stigmas which follow a person and make it very difficult to be accepted into society. As well there is much unrecognized injustice in a regular penatentary that contributes to harder criminals rather then functioning members of society. I take a more "treatment" oriented approach; not to say that peeople who are jailed are ill but it relates better to me in a treatment vs punishment point of view. As a studying addictions counsellor I am also aware that a good portion of inmates suffer from addictions which helps neither the addict or the tax payers. The addict can easily access many drugs in jail while the government spends tons of incarceration fees for an individual to doesnt only not get better but possibly gets worse. And that more of less goes for most cases, addictions or not. Idealistically if the idea of jails being modeled after schools hasn't worked yet , will it ever? Personally i feel that if you put a ton of people with no empathy for eachother into a room and tell them to 'fend for themselves' then no its never going to work.Maybe if some actual real life learning was implimented or offered an inmate would possibly feel useful and be motivated to change. But realalistically speaking who's really going to want to help the "BAD" part of society? I would be but the point is people dont tend to want to fix whats already broken, and it would certainly cause uproar in a society so use to punishment as motivation. So I guess I pose a question to anyone willing to answer: Where does our obligation to a population of "criminals" lie and how can we fix what is broken (meaning the institution)?
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree...95% of those incarcerated are drug and/or alchohol addicted. I also agree that they can access drugs while incarcerated. In fact, one thing I discovered while volunteering in a facility, is that one of the correctional officers brought the drug supply into the facility. When I went to the administration with this information, it turns out they all knew about it, and the excuse they gave for keeping this person as an employee was that he showed up...did his job...and it was difficult to get people willing to do this job! One of the offenders in the "cognitive self change" sessions I facilitated recieved the drugs and sold them to other offenders. He said he makes more money when he's in jail than he does on the outside! The very sad thing is that EVERYBOBY within the system knew about this!
"Where does our obligation to a population of criminals lie and how can we fix what is broken (meaning the institution)?"
That is a HUGE question!!!
First of all, my belief, is that as individuals, we are all connected. Obviously, behaviors that cause incarceration for some, are impacting our society a great deal. So, is our obligation simply to those incarcerated? Do we also have an obligation to ourselves? I believe that we do.
Changing how the institutions function is a big challenge. As with anything, I believe we need to continually take small steps to the best of our ability. We can be more aware of who we elect, appoint and employ in state and federal gov. positions, we can speak up when prison/correction issues are debated, we can volunteer within the system and/or speak about the issues to our legislative representatives (both of which I have done in the past).
FYI...When I discovered the drug issue within the facility, along with many other inappropriate, and illegal behaviors, I spoke with authorities. It wasn't long after, that there was an investigation and the 4 top administrators were removed from the facility.
I believe there is hope:>)
Random Chance 30+
Colleen Steen 500+
I don't like the idea of prisons/correctional facilities operated as businesss either....but they are. I also agree that as they are now, and have been for many years, they are not working. We're continually building larger facilities, to accommodate more offenders!
Another thing I've observed, while volunteering in woman/childrens shelter, family center, child protective services and correctional facilities, is that we're seeing the same families going through these agencies and institutions generation after generation. Something is obviously missing in all of these programs that are supposed to "help" people move out of dysfunctional behaviors. I even had the opportunity to mediate with 3 convicted felons...mother, father and son!
Many offenders have certain skills which could be taught while incarcerated and used productively when they are released into society. I agree that there is an opportunity to teach and learn something different while they are imprisoned. I agree..."In teaching, we are taught". We often teach what we need to learn:>)
This is why I would LOVE to see correctional facilities turned into self sustaining villages, where offenders could teach/learn with each other, and with planned programs. They need to have skills they can use, and they need to learn different practices and life styles that will support them while trying to become productive members of society. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, to continue to put them behinid bars for a period of time, and expect that they will go out into society and behave differently. We are doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results?
Random Chance 30+
So something is very wrong with seeing the same people over and over but I will say that should really sound an alarm that it isn't solely them! For that to occur points to a system that is deeply flawed and we keep using it over and over! We keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results! So, who's insane here? Someone in another forum here said that there are people who need to be isolated from society to learn how to adapt to that society. I had to ask, just how is someone to learn that in isolation from the society in which they have failed and will be put back into? They will learn only about the society in which they are put, so your thoughts about self-sustaining villages makes sense and how that would come about I don't know but I can certainly imagine it. And I agree about the skills which are empowering and can be passed on in order to learn how to be a master safe-cracker of life. So ultimately, it is those on the outside of prison who have to truly embrace accepting the person though we don't accept the behavior. We cannot continue to condemn, ostracize and demonize those we say live in the "dark". They will neverever want to come out then. We have to invite them into the light and accept them as they are in many ways if we are to truly help them to help themselves change.
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree, many of our systems that were put in place to assist people in their time of need, or punish them for crimes, are not working...so...who is repeating the insane behaviors?
I ask the same thing...how is someone to adapt to a society from which they are isolated?
I don't think it would be that difficult to create self sustaining villages...one small step at a time. Of course, we mention this to the powers that be, and it will take several years of legislation and billions of dollars!
The facility I was involved with has a garden, which started out years ago as a very small project to keep some of the offenders busy. It has grown incredibly since it began, and they now suppy all the vegetables for the facility, as well as many non-profit organizations. The guys who work in the gardens are in a very different mind set than those who hang out inside doing video games! We could get them to build little garden sheds (woodworking and building skills)...maybe get some chickens and other animals (farming)...get them to paint the facility some interesting and stimulating colors, rather than the drab, dirty walls they look at...many of the guys are good mechanics (they know how to hot wire cars anyway!!! LOL)...they could repair and maintain farm equipment...teach and learn at the same time...it could evolve, IF the administration supported the idea!
I like that...they could learn to be "master safe-crackers of life"!!! Good one Random Chance. BTW, I don't believe anything is by "chance":>)
Yes...accepting the person and not the behavior is the piece we need as part of completing the puzzle. There is an old Native American practice to deal with offenders in the tribe. The villagers would gather, and the offender would be put on "trial". The members of the village would talk about the offenders skills and talents, tell them they are appreciated for these qualities, and their offensive behaviors are not acceptable.
Penny Ghinaudo
Colleen Steen 500+
I mentioned this in another comment, but I feel it's worth repeating:
While volunteering with dept. of corrections, women/childrens shelter, family center, and working with children in state custody, I observed that we are running into the same families generation after generation, who continue to fall through the cracks. We need to break the cycle somewhere along the way!
Random Chance 30+
Just wanted to add that anyone can be rehabilitated except for some extreme forms of insanity. While there are some great ideas espoused here, none address the cause of crime and to eliminate the cause of something is to eliminate the thing itself. Most don't want to go there because therein lies the truth and the truth means action in ways we don't like or want to do. At that point we all become a bit more like a criminal ourselves, that is, if we identify them to some degree as those who might take or look for the easier softer way to do or get something. Stealing isn't really stealing. It is just another way of getting something. To one who doesn't think or believe that way, it must seem preposterous, outrageous and not true. But it is. But what is the cause? The cause is money. Studies done for almost 100 years show nearly all crime, worldwide is directly or indirectly connected to money. Since this is true, why don't people see that getting rid of almost 100% of crime is a good thing? Well, they cannot or will not think with imagination, creativity, critically and courageously because they don't see a future that isn't like it is now with all the things we are so comfortable with even if they are bad. This points to a populace that might not be willing nor able to save themselves. After all, how in hell can we live without crime? Surely we need to keep crime alive so that we have something to fight against, even if it is each other. It is really sad and foolish.
Christophe Cop 500+
griffin tucker 10+
Colleen Steen 500+
There was a program started here years ago by two offenders who were in jail for life. They called it "Get a Life". They talked about their own life, what led them to get in trouble with the law when they were very young, their families and what programming led them to crime. As the program evolved, they gave a tour of the prison, and told the participants exactly how it felt every day to be incarcerated. Showed them the shower room with cameras...what it felt like to hear the metal doors close behind them each time they moved from one place to another in the facility...many little details that one who has not had that experience may not think about. They did their presentation to classes of high school students, kids at risk, social services workers, etc. etc. In my perception, and the belief of many others, the program was a GREAT success, and many other offenders started participating...telling their stories, etc.
THE PROGRAM WAS CANCELED...AND NOBODY KNEW WHY!!!
"Houses of Healing", the book/program I talked about Griffin, encourages those incarcerated to tell their stories. This, of course, gets them to think and feel the underlying reasons for their behavior. In the "cognitive self change" sessions we did, one of the very first questions I asked is..."what were you feeling or thinking when you committed the crime"? The answer was often..."nothing...wasn't thinking or feeling anything...just did it". They are not thinking about or feeling the consequences for themselves or others, and that is a very basic beginning that needs to be addressed.
griffin tucker 10+
another issue that they could talk about are how society reflects upon offenders, and suggest ways for society itself to improve the general attitude toward offenders and the rehabilitated, and even how to prevent future crime from occurring that would normally happen indirectly due to society or any individual's actions.
also another issue could be the way the correctional facility is run with internal evidence-based policies that would affect the way they live.
the issues they could talk about aren't limited here, though. they could talk about anything that they can think of that would be productive in a positive sense. (perhaps productive isn't the right word?)
Colleen Steen 500+
Bringing society into the challenge happens with the Reparative Justice programs, and can be very successful at times. This process engages the offender and victim (if s/he is willing) in a discussion with the facilitators, about educational programs that might help, community service, all of which may work toward preventing future crime, Our criminal justice system, as it operates now, usually leaves the offender AND the victim out of the proceedings. The attorneys and judge negociate, plee bargin, etc., and sometimes the victim and offender don't even know what's going on.
I think productive is a good word. Offenders need to feel productive because one underlying issue is that they are usually lacking self esteem and confidence.
Muratcan Akçay
"The violent video games reinforce the kind of life style that got them incarcerated, and I would like to see those games banned from society! I think the violent videos, are encouraging bullying and violent crimes in schools...I think young kids are "normalizing" the violence. That may be another topic, but I think very related."
I respectfully disagree. Violent video games are... well... games. Actually I believe they serve a higher purpose. Just like soccer, or tennis, or the Olympics. These are all methods that replace the violence that's already coded in our genes. Humans are violent, competitive creatures. A history of constant wars and violence and bloodshed would be the evidence. Of course we're not just violent. We've evolved to become more. But violence persists. And team sports like soccer or hockey or even polo are replacement for battles (between tribes - and the modern day tribes being the 'fans' of the teams) and sports like tennis and golf etc. replace duels. Violent video games are similar. They allow you to compete with other human beings in a non-lethal, non-violent and skill-based manner and serve as an outlet for the violence.
The media on the other hand... well, when it comes to violence I think the evening news is much much more dangerous than computer games.
Colleen Steen 500+
I've heard your rationalization before. I agree...games are games...however...soccer, tennis or the Olympics are games that test the individual and his/her challenge to push the limits of physical strength and endurance, with competitions that are, for most of them a life long achievment. The end goal produces healthier, more focused, dedicated people. So, to say that video games are comparable to the olympic games seems like a stretch. I agree that humans are competitive, but I do not agree that we are by nature violent.
You're right that video games provide competition and require skill. Again, I do not percieve video games providing anything like the competition and skill required for sport events. I do not agree that they are non-violent or serve as an outlet for the violence. I believe, as many others do, that they reinforce violence and "normalize" it to the point that some people do not realize what is real, and what is not real.
Muratcan Akçay
Well I guess the wars that have been continuing since the beginning of time is a pretty good indicator that we are violent. Also there's this experiment where they take 20(?) volunteers, which are completely normal people from all walks of life, and make half of them prisoners and half of them guards. Well, it doesn't end nicely. Here is the link if you haven't watched it. It's a real eye opener.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_of_evil.html
As for comparing video games and Olympics... I guess you don't know much about video games (I mean no disrespect) but game conventions have become global events where highly (VERY HIGHLY) skilled gamers compete against each other. Yes it is not physical, but it sure takes a lot of time to master and dedication and concentration and endurance and very good reflexes and quick-thinking. Video games and sports are not that different actually. Just the mediums of competition (and thus the methods) differ.
Anyways, I'd better return to the real topic :)
Yes I can't deny that the violence in the video games "normalize" it to the point that some people do not realize what is real, and what is not real But you can't generalize. If someone can't see the difference between "playing a computer game and killing people that don't really exist" and "killing actual, real, breathing, alive human beings" than this is not the fault of the video game. It is the fault of the family/society/school/community.
You can't stop someone from killing by destroying all the guns/destroying all the knives/destroying all the baseball bats/destroying all the violent computer games. You do it by raising conscious, aware, awake individuals that can empathize, sympathize, think and separate 'right' from 'wrong'. Pressing a mouse button to cause the image of a human(oid) that appears on the computer screen 'die' is not wrong. Killing an actual person IS.
Colleen Steen 500+
You're right...I may not know much about video games. The only thing I know about them is based on my observations while volunteering in a jail for years. I observed the inmates totally engaged with video gaming as if it was real. I observed fights often breaking out during and/or right after playing the video games. I observed grown men spending a lot of time playing games, that in my perception, were not going to benefit them when they went back into society. Now, I suppose if they got "VERY HIGHLY SKILLED" with the video games, they could make a living...earn money.... playing them when they were released?
They've been "competing" against each other all their lives, in ways that are not particularly productive to themselves and/or society. What we are talking about in this discussion is education, and the teaching/learning of skills that may assist the offenders in finding a new life path.
Yes, I can "generalize", because I observed the offenders/gamers and the impact the playing of the games had on their emotional and physical well being.
You are right...we change behaviors by raising conscious, aware, awake individuals who can empathize, sympathize, think and seperate right from wrong. Pressing a mouse button to create similar violent situations they have experienced their entire lives CAN make a difference in reinforcing previous programming. In order to raise conscious aware, awake individuals, we need to provide them the tools which can facilitate that process, rather than reinforcing the old behaviors.
Muratcan Akçay
No they wouldn't be able to make a living. They wouldn't be able to keep up with the teenagers. And I agree with you about the inmates. Rather than allowing them to play violent games that reinforce what they have been through all their lives other alternatives should be chosen (maybe martial arts?), which is the actual topic of this debate right? :) Sorry, I jumped in at the middle and maybe drifted off the real topic but it seemed important. Kids and offenders are very separate categories, and the kids' relationship with video games is very different from the offenders'. So yes maybe you can "generalize" for the offenders, as you have so much experience with them, but I think you shouldn't do so for the global population, since I have a lot of experience with kids playing video games, and if there's something wrong with their approach to violence (like "normalizing") video games has little effect. As I said, evening news and in addition to that, newspapers, nationalism, patriotism and religion have a much bigger impact. And furthermore these are 'real' stuff from the 'real' world. Not 'virtual realities created in a box'.
As for the offenders, and turning prisons into schools... I don't think it can be done. The system is wrong from the beginning. These offenders are the by-products of the world we live in. They are a natural outcome of the mess we have created in the world. And what do we do? We imprison them.
What do they do? They meet like-minded friends in the prison and get 'educated' in their field of crime. And when they get out they are much better at doing what put them in prison.
So prisons are already schools in a way...
I remember reading about an African(?) tribe in which when someone does something 'wrong' they put this person in the middle and all tribe members tell a good story or say a few good words about the guy, that acknowledges his existence and thanks him. They pour out LOVE to the offender. Yeah, utopia, I know :)
Colleen Steen 500+
With anything in life, there is a balance:>) Martial Arts would be FABULOUS!!! So many lessons there, and it is also a wonderful physical activity:>)
Some kids may be different with video games and some kids may be the same as the offenders. A lot depends on their background and how they are using the "game".
I agree...there is as much violence on the evening news! You're right...the offenders are the by-products of the world we live in. So, is it possible to change the world we live in? I believe so:>) You're right again...prisons are already schools. We need to change the direction of the "schools" and change the direction of the offenders. They have energy and are often very intelligent people who have been "programmed" with certain information that is not beneficial to themselves or society. We need to change the "game".
I love your story about the tribal process. I heard it was a Native American practice...maybe both??? It just makes so much sense. Offenders are insecure with low self esteem. They need to know that they have potential...that there is hope for them. SOMETHING has to influence them enough to cause them to change their behavioral preference.
Muratcan Akçay
I, too, believe that it is possible to change the world we live in. Actually it is already changing everyday. Edmund Burke said all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Well I'm generally hopeful about the future of mankind (not always). I also believe that in general, mankind is inherently good, but unfortunately very prone to manipulation and misdirection, very naive and still very primitive.
Changing the "game" is certainly not easy. Everything is linked to everything else. The monetary system, nations, corporations, banks, religious institutions, governments, armies... It's like a spider web. And we're talking about just one strand of the web here. I don't think it can be changed without changing everything else. And the web in full is both very delicate and very strong.
I can think of only two outcomes: Either this web of civilization will completely collapse and a new one will be built. Or it will evolve and become something else. The first option scares me, though second option has its pitfalls, too.
But at the individual level I believe what everyone should do is help each other. Without asking for anything in return. This would be an action occurring 'beyond' the web, unaffected by its 'rules', because the web is built on a give-take basis: you don't do anything that doesn't bring gains. If enough people started to give without expecting anything in return it could turn into a global revolution.
Unfortunately those in power obviously don't want his. That's why they keep the world fearful, poor, angry, and ignorant. Whoever/whatever is in control wants to stay in control, and a mass awakening would be the last thing they'd support.
But I'm drifting from the topic again and 2000 characters is much too little for me to explain everything I would like to. :)
Thank you for this conversation Colleen, I'll be looking forward to 'connect' with you in the future on different subjects.
Btw: Native American yes!
Colleen Steen 500+
Our world is changing as we speak...I am hopeful about the future...everything is interconnected...when we change one thing, we change the whole...we are here to help support each other in our life journeys...if enough people started to give without expecting anything in return it could turn into a global revolution...it is going to be more and more difficult to keep the world fearful, poor, angry and ignorant because of our technology...people are no longer as isolated...
Thank you for the conversation, and I'm looking forward to more:>)
Helen Hupe 30+
Phillip McKay
griffin tucker 10+
my point is, the business would need to survive - or in the case of serco, still make more money.