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Scientia Veritatis

Intelligent Nonreligious Reasoning

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Should Deception truly be looked down upon?

I personally admire the art of deception. Immoral as though it may be, lies have proven themselves incredibly useful over the course of history and, if executed by the right individuals in the right way, can lead to incredible things.

Now, I do not admire the consequences or causes themselves, but the act. If you consider the essential core of deception - manipulating the human mind by deliberately feeding it false information and anticipating a desired result - the feat is astounding. The scenarios surrounding the lie are merely relevant if you are to define the ultimate judgement of the deceptive act.

What I'm trying to say is that I view Deception much like I view Death. The process itself is fascinating regardless of context, but we still mourn the passing of Steve Jobs while celebrating the demise of Hitler. We tend to value that which is lost or gained throughout the process more than the actual act.

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    Oct 9 2011: "if executed by the right individuals in the right way"; You said it all here. A right person never needs to imply deception, because right persons are not egoists who think only for their benefits. Yet again your view of Deception is entirely subjective, as an opinion should be.

    NO. Death is a totally different area. Only Religion explains the death. I loved how Steve Jobs put it : "Death is the greatest invention of life". Deception tho is so much human thing. Almost all of us have or will deceive someone during our lives.
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      Oct 9 2011: Almost?
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        Oct 9 2011: It's the most scientific way to put it. We can't determine whether every single human on earth has lied, so we shouldn't claim to know something we don't. We can't expand a claim to global proportions just because our local culture may indicate that it applies in our immediate surroundings..
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          Oct 9 2011: Scientia, maybe I assumed people in MY immediate surrounding DON'T deceive each other, but in YOUR surrounding they DO it. After all, its you who are defending deception
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      Oct 9 2011: "A right person never needs to imply deception, because right persons are not egoists who think only for their benefits."

      Could you please clarify this statement? When you say that they do not need to imply deception, do you mean that they don't have to practice it due to their honesty or that they don't need to justify it due to their benevolent nature?



      "Only Religion explains the death. "

      I find this to be horribly inaccurate. Religion is not based upon evidence and is thus of no use in a rational debate, unless that debate is focused on one of its many branches. Death has been explained in the biological sense, which is what I was referring to in my original argument. Not the Afterlife, but the actual demise of your cells, the permanent end to your conscious experience.



      "Deception tho is so much human thing."

      I understand what you are trying to convey, but I thought I'd point out that other species use deception as well.
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        Oct 9 2011: There's nothing rational in a debate about deception because if one person start to use lies nothing can be secure anymore.
        Without deception and corruption which are a bit of the same the world would be a lovely place for everyone.

        The life though of your cells as you call them live on even without you. In your children or nephews and nieces they live, and maybe they aren't yours at all but spread by your ancestors to live happy ever after.
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          Oct 13 2011: "There's nothing rational in a debate about deception because if one person start to use lies nothing can be secure anymore. Without deception and corruption which are a bit of the same the world would be a lovely place for everyone."

          And yet the reality is that our society has incorporated deception into its daily functions. Silencing debates concerning ugly truths is just as horrendous as the tragic reality itself.



          "The life though of your cells as you call them live on even without you. In your children or nephews and nieces they live, and maybe they aren't yours at all but spread by your ancestors to live happy ever after."

          That's irrelevant. Upon death, your consciousness has diminished and you are no more. Regardless of whether or not future generations carry your personal genome, your conscious experience has ended.
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    . . 100+

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    Oct 12 2011: Scientia Veritatis--
    Will you tell us some examples of when "lies have proven themselves incredibly useful over the course of history and, if executed by the right individuals in the right way, can lead to incredible things. "
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      Oct 12 2011: Imagine Harriet Tubman lying to officials when asked if she had seen any escaped slaves.
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        Oct 12 2011: Harriet Tubman (born Araminta Ross; March 1822 – March 10, 1913) was an African-American abolitionist, humanitarian, and Union spy during the American Civil War. After escaping from slavery, into which she was born, she made thirteen missions to rescue more than 70 slaves -
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          Oct 13 2011: Exactly. That's a prime example of the positive impacts deception can have when used by the right individuals.
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        Oct 14 2011: Good one.
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    Oct 9 2011: "Could you please clarify this statement? When you say that they do not need to imply deception, do you mean that they don't have to practice it due to their honesty or that they don't need to justify it due to their benevolent nature?"
    Bit of both I guess. When you deceive someone, it automatically imply that 1)you are an egoist person 2)you are wrong, that's the reason of manipulation you are going to perform

    "I find this to be horribly inaccurate. Religion is not based upon evidence and is thus of no use in a rational debate, unless that debate is focused on one of its many branches. Death has been explained in the biological sense, which is what I was referring to in my original argument. Not the Afterlife, but the actual demise of your cells."
    I wasn't talking about the cause of death, but the actual concept of death. Maybe the religious point of view irrational for you, but it's rational for me and for billions more(we "irrational" people don't believe that this instantaneous life is all that there is; that's not what we are talking about here tho)... same way, may be, deception is a moral and valid thing to do for some people and not for others.

    "I understand what you are trying to convey, but I thought I'd point out that other species use deception as well."
    Almost all of us have or will deceive someone during our lives, I guess, in a way of speech it makes it human thing
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      Oct 9 2011: "When you deceive someone, it automatically imply that 1)you are an egoist person 2)you are wrong, that's the reason of manipulation you are going to perform"

      So if Harriet Tubman is asked by officials whether she had seen any escaped slaves, does that imply that she is egocentric and a morally inept person?


      "we "irrational" people don't believe that this instantaneous life is all that there is; that's not what we are talking about here tho"

      Oh dear. I didn't mean to offend you or any other religious person. I merely think that this issue should be debated with rational arguments, and feeding an individual false information so as to achieve a desired outcome doesn't seem irrational to me. Immoral, maybe. But not irrational.
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        Oct 9 2011: Naturally, logically and rationally: I meant when we deceive each and our cause isn't to save slaves or Nazi Germany or against any evil villain.

        I'm not offended.
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          Oct 12 2011: So you agree when I say that, if used by the right individuals in the right way, deception can result in amazing things?