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Julian Treasure

Chairman, The Sound Agency

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TED Speaker Julian Treasure: What would a conscious listening world be like – and how do we get there?

In my talk from this year's TEDGlobal, I warned that we are losing our listening, and explored the links between listing and connection, understanding and peace. How do you think listening (or the lack of it) affects our society? And what would a world of conscious listening be like? How would your life experience change? Is it something worth striving for – and if so, how do we get there? And how can you contribute?

Please type in your responses/comments/questions below.

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Topics: Listening
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    Thomas Brooks

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    Oct 17 2011: It seems we un-learn some of our ability to listen consciously.

    In a recent project in Switzerland called "City Life" a group of children spent a week digitally recording the soundscape of their town, led by musician Luca Congedo. By Friday they had created a huge map of the city and were able to express with startling clarity the audio environment. This attention to the sound of things (they recorded patients in hospitals and machines and animals and plants,..) provided them with access to a rich detail of other sensations of the places including smells and colors and emotions.

  • T O

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    Oct 17 2011: To possibly achieve conscious listening one would have to be fully capable of visual impression. Too often there is an attempt to understand without perceiving context (i.e., facial expression, gestures, feeling, photographs, imagery...) and creating that image within our own minds to create a behavior or feeling towards the environment or self.

    The lack of listening in our society creates self-absorption with the lack of capacity to understand how our actions may trigger a pattern in behavior that very well mimics our own. I believe that we would fail to understand those things that may not particularly pertain to our own lives/ selves and therefore disregard it as uneventful or meaningless.

    I think it is something worth striving for first and foremost on an individual basis. People would need the appropriate and individualized tools catered to suit their needs and their learning styles.

    I would hope to contribute by engaging in discussion. I would believe that in order for conscious listening to be established an interest or concern needs to be present.

  • Albert Hong

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    Oct 16 2011: I think it is the first step to a world without the need for war and violence.

    Listening is to open your heart (being vulnerable) and be willing to challenge your own personal beliefs, customs or even moral values.

  • Mike Hudgins

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    Oct 16 2011: Good to hear you will be doing more work on this. I would suggest that the cause or effect is important depending on your goals, until your final words I was going to agree. If your goal is to achieve "Sound Business Focuses" then I agree, cause or effect does not matter. You can simply teach people how to consciously listen to their own benefit and they will improve what ever business they persue, but, it seems to me that if we truly want to change the world (not just teh business world) then a more encompassing model must be sought.
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    Julian Treasure 200+

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    Oct 16 2011: Lovely idea. Worth fighting for also, with only a tiny proportion of the Earth not polluted by overflights or toher man-made noise.
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    Karina Eisner 10+

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    Oct 15 2011: I met an amazing woman, Barbara, coincidentally also in Surrey, who used to train schools, parents, and couples on listening and adjusting skills.

    In her personal experience she had moved a lot, and understood the communication divide of most of her clients, expats always on their way somewhere else. Lack of enough time in addition to the imperative need to quickly manage too many factors simultaneously (new job, new office, new position, new town, new house, new school, new social network, new friends' group for the kids, new language, new foods) can have a short circuit effect, or at least tunnel vision of sorts, where everyone listens to their own music -not each other.
    Her seminaries were excellent. Beyond the practical results at that particular time and place, they empowered us to re-focus and take charge of our life. The principles learned there have been totally transferable to later life events.

    Yes, conscious listening is important, and it can be learned. Mostly, it needs practice.

  • James Kindler 20+

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    Oct 15 2011: I think you must quiet your mind to listen or actively listen. I work with the mentally ill and the most important thing you can do is listen to them. I also have a mental illness myself and like to be heard. However, I've been trained to listen first, ask if I understood them correctly and then speak. Nobody likes to be talked or over or have someone texting while they are talking. I don't want to lose the art of listening, it's how I learn from others, it's a combination of words spoken, body gestures, facial expressions, tones of voice and so on. our new way of communicating is cold and easily misread. I also do public speaking for a living along with training, there is nothing like being in a room full of people with their undivided attention. People often comment or write something on what I spoke about so I know they were listening and it's a good feeling to be heard.
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    Allan Macdougall 30+

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    Oct 14 2011: Forgive me if this has already been covered, but I think that listening is multi-sensory - not just through sounds - but also touch, smell and even taste.

    For instance, the exciting atmosphere of a live concert is multi-sensory. Listening to that same music on a hi-fi is less likely to stimulate excitement - more likely it would elicit a singular emotional reaction to what is endemic in the music itself.

    There have been occasions where I have listened to a band playing on a hi-fi and have not enjoyed it at all - yet on seeing them play live, enjoyed every second of it. I then go back to my hi-fi and listen to that same band playing with almost the same enjoyment as I had at the live performance.

    My listening changed in response to the ways in which the music has been reproduced.

    I wonder if a correlation exists between our listening responses to live/recorded music ,and speaking to real people/speaking to 'electronic representations' of people? Watching and responding to facial expressions and body language of other people, absorbing the sense of place where the conversation is taking place, is as multi-sensory and exciting as a live musical performance.

    I also know that my own conversational and listening styles are completely different and the interaction feels 'hollow' when using electronic media.

    I suppose the upshot is that we have evolved to interact and listen to live human beings using all the senses we possess.
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      Julian Treasure 200+

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      Oct 16 2011: I completely agree. This is part of Murray Schafer's full definition of schizophonia, the dislocate between what we hear and what we see that arises from recorded or transmitted sound that's divorced from the other sensory stimuli. There are many cross-modal effects (interactions between the senses) that affect our total perception, and listening is absolutely altered by what we see, smell, feel and taste. Google the McGurk effect to get one great example.

  • Mss Turtle

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    Oct 14 2011: Not sure if we should see this as only about noise and listening by its meaning as a word. In my view, it is about mind switch, change of perception and behavior. We all can hear when our brains get the signals and when our heart pay attention then we can get the message! The heart whispers and sometimes this is the listening skill we miss the most.
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      Julian Treasure 200+

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      Oct 16 2011: Take a look at the distinction I make in the talk about listening positions... heart listening is important in several of these, but not all. for example, listening to an academic lecture or a teacher is probably hampered, not helped, by engaging the heart too much.

  • Mark Thur

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    Oct 14 2011: I think we should aim for the Futurists ideal of an omni-present symphony of the soundscape.

    With the arrival of the noiseless engine and quiet tires of the electric car and the ability to adapt your personal soundscape on your pocket devices, we're starting to gain more control over our sonic environment. Let's make some conscious decisions.

    Luigi Russolo and more participants in the early twentieth century Futurist Movement embraced all the new sounds of the modern world they were bombarded with. They incorporated these sounds in their orchestral works.
    If we can listen to our sonic environment as if it were one big composition in which we al contribute we find a new arena for social interactions. Conscious listening is the key.

    I've been finding a lot of musical patterns in everyday sounds and soundscapes, but found it really hard to record these because a microphone is much to objective and can't 'lock on' to a specific pattern in an abundant soundscape. The human brain can! Easily! That's what we do!...

    It only takes a mindset to hear this music.

    With me it made a click when I started enjoying "chaotic" electronic music (DJ Spooky, Stockhausen, Cage, some Aphex Twin, Autechre, et al.) and Free Jazz(rock). While cycling through The Netherlands I have these musical frases in mind and occasionally an accidental harmony occurred between the soundscape and this music in my head. Imaginary music with one foot rooted in reality...

    I started calling this Musique Trouvé.

    Having a culture based on vision was nice for a while but with almost 40.000 pictures being uploaded to Flickr every hour it's kind of losing meaning and urgency...
    Let's explore what a culture based on sound can do for us.

    I'm always making music with the soundscape that's surrounding me and the people around me.
    Public parks should have more creative sound installations.

    In my mind I've already arrived at the symphonic soundscape. Everyones mind is wired to experience this.

    Mark Thur
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      Julian Treasure 200+

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      Oct 16 2011: This is exactly what I mean by the exercise 'savoring' that I included in the talk. Your practice is not far from Cage's concept of musique concrete, and it does as you say make life far more interesting to be (as I like to term it) hearing the hidden choir in mundane sounds.

      • Mark Thur

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        Oct 16 2011: Hi Julian,

        thanks for the reply.

        As much as I respect John Cage's work in the field of classical music, I prefer the viewpoint of Edgar Varésè that music is organized sound.
        When you lock on to musical patterns in the soundscape you organize sound within your brain. When you accept any 'accidentally' present sound as being musical, like Cage, you forget that in a natural world without humans there will be sound, but no music.

        'Choice' is wat makes sound into music.

        I propose creating "Listening Fields" opposed to "Lookout Points". Conscious listeners should choose locations with an exceptionally beautiful soundscape, possibly with a hidden choir in it.
        Murray Schafer already suggested making sound reserves, I propose that we should put sticks in the ground with notes on them pointing out the music you can find in the present soundscape. Off course this changes over time, so an app or online map would be better, but an unknowing passer-by could stop and be moved by sound.

        Lookout Points are so twentieth-century... Standing in one place being told where to look... While Listening Fields are spread in a large acoustic arena in which you can choose your point-of-ear, but can always be surprised by a sound from behind.
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    João Coucelo 10+

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    Oct 13 2011: Hi! Can't tell that this is a new problem but it surely looks like that is getting worst!
    In the last 40 years there has been a cut between what "older" people know and learned from their ancestors and what "new" people learned from the former.

    Somehow people became more intellectually arrogant. They were able to extend that teenage typical psychologically phase through the twenties and so on.

    I imagine that is due to the format education generally has and because there was a wider social access to knowledge and academic education after the second world war, then latter the computers, mobile phones, smartphones, the www (internet)...

    I like to listen, fortunately I get a lot to listen to in the hospital, all those elderly people are dusted and wrecked treasures with valuable lessons to take from their life stories.
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      Julian Treasure 200+

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      Oct 16 2011: Wonderful description of the locked up beauty we can access by listening to old people. Surely along with teenagers they are among the least listened to people on the planet – and yet they have so much to share. I agree with your concern: in the talk I mention the relatively new paradigm of 'personal broadcasting', which requires no listening at all and goes hand in hand with the 'me-first' materialist culture we've managed to entrench and amplify with every successive generation. Hence 'sodcasting' in all its forms.
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        João Coucelo 10+

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        Oct 16 2011: Thank you for the time spent on commenting back.
        I am very thankful that I can listen to people with great knowledge and ideas here at TED, let alone to interact and have some feedback.
        Wish you all the best with your work and hope you reach more people.

      • dan philips

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        Oct 16 2011: Wouldn't it be nice to have more of our elderly people become more active in our education system? To become teachers and mentors to the younger generations, would also give them more purpose and communication in their retirement years. But would the youth listen, probably not, unless if they were their own grandparents. Maybe getting these two groups together would make the " conscious listening" easier to achieve.
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    Kymberlaine Banks

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    Oct 12 2011: I appreciate the idea of listening for the quieter things, we can only do that if we're intentional about listening. Planning to start to practice your suggestion of 3 minutes of as close to silence as possible daily, thanks Julian.

  • Priya Soni

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    Oct 12 2011: I think this is a really interesting topic -- and agree that listening has become increasingly difficult, but processing what is heard, interpreting the voice is far more difficult. Listening may be likened not to an act (an active function), but to the mode of processing. Particularly, processing thought . Listening is primarily a "process" and this is were the difficult lies. Can we ever "listen" if we never process what was said? and can we ever process? i.e. is the process of listening ever complete. What we listen to essentially never leaves us ( at least until the process is complete).

    We listen to only what we have processed, and this is not necessarily listening to what was said. That is not to say that all listening is generically ego-centric, but simply that it is a selective process. The 21st century -- a world propelled into modernity, obscured by media, sound and technology-- a society which makes full use of this reality that "listening" operates within. A reality which in many ways, we ourselves have constructed. We "listen" then, only to our interpretations of what we hear. The mind becomes the ear in many ways.

  • garima dahima

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    Oct 12 2011: ..Aware listening..being present is difficult for more than 90 % of the world’s population...and to accept sincerely...listening is easier but understanding the thought heard in the same manner is more difficult..We can make any person hear us...whatever we want..by many ways...by talking the way he/she is interested...by talking about them (this aspect interest ....... people)...by talking about their interest areas...but more difficult is making the person understand the same way you have said...one can use the best suitable word required for the them to be talked about...but do you think the person will get you in the same way...In my daily life I meet many people who show the readiness to hear but lack of understanding to be understood...they are full of their own perception which they feel is right...they are not ready to discuss rather boost or pretend...Sir...as you said how I can contribute to this aspect is through meditation...I insist while I organize seminar for parents and teachers to try different techniques of meditation with primary kids....teens ... before they start their class... I feel when meditation will become a part of education the conscious listening will appear...
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    Amir Azizi Sarajy

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    Oct 12 2011: Almost at the end of the movie " Se7en " Mills ( Brad Pitt ) asked the serial Killer why did you do it ?

    John Doe replies : " Wanting people to pay attention, you can't just tap them on the shoulder. Sometimes you have to hit them in the head with a sledgehammer... and then you get their strict attention ".

    As you mentioned on your talk not just media but even we have to shout to get others attention,

    One of the biggest contributors to this are SMS and twits , because of 150 character limit, the conversation are compressed to their very core essence and they are just key words not dialogues. This has an amazing effect because in a dialogue when you say Hi I should say Hi right away , but when you send me a message I don't need to, you can have my attention at the time of my choosing not yours.

    I call it " Dialogue on Demand " , you can talk but I will listen to you whenever I want. No surprise that kids are having difficulties during a simple conversation and get bored very soon and want to end it a.s.a.p.

    By the way , Thanks a lot for the talks, and there is something that I would love to know.

    The way you talk , your voice and your speech pattern is so calming and listening to you is so relaxing, Did you specifically worked on it , because I noticed it was at its best at your 2011 speech.

    Your speech is very soothing and musical, and I was wondering if you practiced to talk based on 12 frequencies of ocean waves or something similar ? or I could be totally wrong and this is just how you talk :) , I love the way you talk, it is great.
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      Julian Treasure 200+

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      Oct 16 2011: Thanks for the kind words Amir. I have trained in speaking and presenting of course... I encourage others to train their voice if they are to speak compellingly, so it would be inconsistent not to do it myself. I work with a lovely voice coach called Randolph Matthews (a fine singer and thinker about sound who has a gig coming up soon if anyone's in the London area). I haven't ever come across 12 frequencies of ocean waves, but I do aim to be very conscious when on stage (or indeed all the time) and to use this lovely instrument we have all been given as mindfully as possible.
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        Amir Azizi Sarajy

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        Oct 16 2011: that is amazing , I would love to meet you someday and Mr.Matthews as well, I love Thinkers, a Sound Thinker, that is awesome, I believe big improvements won't come unless we think deeply about it, thinking by my sight is the most important asset that we humans have and a big , gigantic requirement to that is Listening and conscious Listening , Thanks a lot for bringing it up to the public's conscious.

        by the way any news on teaching Listening at schools ? I would love to hear the news of that.

  • Mike Hudgins

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    Oct 12 2011: This seems like a very large question to me but I believe it is rooted in the value we place on people. I hope it is more than simply finding a quiet place, I see it as making a conscious effort to value another person. We are becoming a society based on promiscuity in all things, with emotional promiscuity having the largest impact. We seem to long for immediate gratification for ourselves with the smallest amount of effort. If we can teach the real, inherent value of people then conscious listening will simply 'be', regardless of the amount of ambient noise around me, if I truly value others I will listen.
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      Julian Treasure 200+

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      Oct 16 2011: Yes Mike, that is a huge part of this. Whether it's cause or effect of conscious listening matters little... the beneficial outcome seems to be universally accepted in this TED conversation and all the comments from my talk. This is the cause for optimism: it appears that there is a massive untapped desire for better listening. I am planning a project for 2012 to take this movement much wider, possibly another book: my current book Sound Business focuses on using sound well in business, which is the other half of the equation in my overall vision, to create a world that sounds beautiful.
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    sergio ianni

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    Oct 11 2011: Hello Julian; do you think it would be possible to teach kids to listen in a better way? Would you do some lessons that could be shown on Khan Academy or Youtube? I would be happy to translate them in italian if you think they won't lose effectiveness when transalated. Of course I would like to do it for free..no money involved. I am at a point in life where I think I can give people something without expecting a 'material' return.
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      Julian Treasure 200+

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      Oct 16 2011: I would be happy to discuss this Sergio. My wife is Italian, so I speak a little (ma sto imperando sempre!). Drop me an email at julian.treasure@thesoundagency.com.
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    Andrea Pisera 50+

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    Oct 11 2011: I think that the relationship between technology and listening, and the lack of listening, is that we lose the essential elements of connection between humans by using those devices constantly. We lose the personal contact: face-to-face, eye contact, heart-to-heart connection, breath, and tones. The connection is rational and everything happens quickly. A conscious listening means that two people are rational and emotional connected. It means self-examination and self-awareness.
    It happens when you are connected with someone “in real”, when you take the time and space for both in favor for the connection without rational purpose. Of course, it’s worth it!
    I can’t remember where I read this, but it was illuminating, “To listen is to have integrity and to be conscious of the integrity of others, of being present to the “global” field of awareness".

  • Rachael Lowe

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    Oct 11 2011: active listening discerns the essence of verbal and non-verbal interaction. active listening feels the sub-text and the current of intent behind the words - the energy behind the words. words most often to not reflect reality. a person's sense of their reality can be detected in their movements and their sound. trauma, pain, joy, love - all strong emotions - are stored in the body as a somatic response. listening is about watching too. creating space around, above, below the words being said - observing somatic response - can indicate what is real in a human interaction. active listening can provide a very precious opportunity to hear, see and meet the person in their reality. active listening gives you, the respondee, a very precious opportunity to respond to the very heart and soul of that person - if judged (through intuition and active listening) that the person will hear your response. hearts and souls can be seen, met and elevated through deep and active listening. this brings about a change in consciousness through deep connection.
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    Patrick Ellz

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    Oct 10 2011: Everything is too loud. People have become accustomed to blocking out background "noise", i.e. if someone lives in a city they don't hear traffic because they are accustomed to it. If someone is whispering, people will try harder to listen in, which causes the listener to "pay closer attention" to the details of the conversation. A conscious listening would result in much less noise pollution, a greater understanding of communications, or more awareness of the sounds that surround our environments. Nature makes beautiful music if your far from technologies buzz.
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      Julian Treasure 200+

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      Oct 11 2011: Absolutely Patrick – the exact thesis of my first TED talk, and my third, in one paragraph. My vision os a world that sounds beautiful and I believe we can achieve that with a twin strategy: get everyone listening consciously so we all start to complain about noise and create our own good sound; and show organizations that good sound is good business (which is the subject of my book Sound Business and what my company The Sound Agency does), so that the makers of most of the noise start to design with sound instead of randomly assailing us all with noise.

      If anyone's interested in the latter conversation, you can get a free chapter of my book at www.thesoundagency.com.

  • Anne Karam

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    Oct 10 2011: To start with, listening cannot happen unless the participants are fully present. Once true listening (and not just hearing) occurs, empathy and compassion can follow. And once we have empathy and compassion, we are let to accountability .And that's where things can happen that have the power to change the world! Might I suggest that we start to change how we speak to one another? Perhaps we could stop every now and again to ask the person(s) we are speaking to if they can repeat back to us what we have just said. Perhaps we could strive to maintain eye contact with the person we are speaking (or listening) to. And perhaps, when it is appropriate, consciously try to maintain a physical contact between the listener(s) and the speaker. Touching arms or fingers can often be a non-invasive way of creating the intimacy that promotes listening. And yes, most certainly, distractions from tv, ipods, books, and so much more can destroy listening. But most importantly, it's the INTENTION to listen that will make the most difference. The ways to accomplish this will follow and be different for each individual. So perhaps it's a good idea to ask the listeners first declare their INTENTION to listen, whether it's in a classroom or a home, or anywhere else people want to speak and be heard. It's also important for the person talking to take responsibility for speaking in a way that makes listening possible.
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    Yolanthe Smit 500+

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    Oct 10 2011: At TEDxTheHagueLIVE last July Kathy Voyles spoke eloquently about spending 20 min a day at the table eating without any screens, tv or radio, just twenty minutes sitting and talking or even being silent. See het talk here: http://youtu.be/5gsMSXhumBY
    Her focus was on food, but really it was about being with each other.

  • weaa fsassss

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    Oct 10 2011: Yes "no screen" times are a great idea...
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    caro dateo

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    Oct 10 2011: Perhaps if middle schools started the day with 3 minutes of birdsong, one could measure the impact, compared to other schools that apparently start with the song from Oklahoma (Oh What a Beautiful Morning), or school announcements. I propose middle school as it seems to be a time where kids are going through more cognitive development, and also a time when parents and teachers recognize difficulties and challenges in reaching kids effectively - earbuds or not.
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    caro dateo

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    Oct 10 2011: I'm really enjoying your work featured on TED. From my business experience I also believe listening needs to be repurposed. With so many pressures on us to act quickly, people are refusing to disconnect from their various gadgets and therefore are never really listening consciously ever. Last time I had an office, I put my phone on one table and my laptop on another so i was forced to break away from one to engage with the other. It's not just teen kids ignoring their parents; parents are listening to their kids with half an ear, and that's not counting the mental dialogue that is often occurring in one's mind, adding further "noise". I'd love to participate in brainstorming teaching listening skills... keep talking and sounding off... thanks

  • Bilal Saad

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    Oct 10 2011: Hi Julian, We are losing our listening because many things came up on our modern world, these are:-

    1- Songs beat.
    2- High sound we are hearing.
    3- Drinking a lot.
    4- No person to person contact.

    Thanks for the topic.
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    Mita Radhakrishnan

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    Oct 10 2011: Julian and others, do have a look at the book "Listening for Wellness" by Pierre Sollier, available at amazon and at www.listenwell.com
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    Julian Treasure 200+

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    Oct 10 2011: Thanks to everyone for engaging and for some brilliant thoughts and questions... I have to leave in a few minutes but this conversation will be active for a week, until Sunday night, and I will be coming back often to check in and respond to your comments. Keep on posting!

    • Linda Amitrano

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      Oct 10 2011: Let me know when where how you will implement the teaching of listening; I must be there... I have so many thoughts on this topic.

  • Nancy Aronson

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    Oct 10 2011: I'm just referring to what passes as politeness. Didn't say that I adopt that strategy myself, for the most part. Personally, I try for a blend of polite and authentic. Sometimes, when dealing with a loose conversational canon, I just do what it takes to survive and endure
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