- Woody Dunkin
- Chicago, IL
- United States
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Catholicism opposes the equality of women
Catholicism opposes the equality of women. How can men, especially men with a wife, daughters or sons, be members of the catholic church and claim to believe in equality for women?
- Nuns/women are not allowed to own property; Priests/men can.
- Nuns take a vow of obedience. Priests do not.
- Women are not allowed to hold high office within the catholic church. Only men can be priests, pastors, bishops, cardinals or pope.
If actions speak louder than words, what is Catholicism saying about the value of women?
Fair and equal treatment is a requirement of ones perceived value; especially from authority figures.
If, "...we as men, good men, the large majority of men, we operate on the foundation of this whole collective socialization.", how can we be good men and indoctrinate our sons and daughters into an influential community that practices and perpetuates the inequality of women?
James Houston
As far as I can tell there is no injustice, but merely you wanting there to be one and have something to rally against. Essentially your arguing against parenting. Why even allow for the existence of parents if we collectively can butt in and tell them exactly how they are to raise their kids? Shall we police what language they can use, what clothing? I mean heaven forbid these "ignorant" parents might prejudice their kid against the latest political cause celebre!
The only thing I see is you have a problem that a certain society has only male priests. If you don't like Catholicism, don't be Catholic and don't raise your kids to be Catholic. All you are doing is mandating people be like you and conform to your personal political bias simply because they don't fit your vision for how societies aught to be.
@Jason Kather
If I saw a couple hitting one another, man hitting woman or woman hitting man, I'd maybe interject and ask why they were fighting but, honestly is it my place to tell them how to run their lives? Plus I don't know what started the fight.
Second, this isn't exactly comparable as, 1 example is someone attacking someone, another is an institution nobody mandates anyone be a part of.
Woody Dunkin
Also, can you please point out the mandate you reference? If anything was interpreted as a mandate it should be addressed; others may have misinterpreted my position as well.
Finally, parenting can be a whole separate debate. But, aren't you arguing against parenting, as you said, "Children, when they grow up, can decide to leave their family and their families culture all they like. Until then I suggest you butt out..." ?
James Houston
Luigi Vampa
James Houston
Luigi Vampa
James Houston
So only men can be priests, and to be a nun one must take special vows different then that of what a priest would take? That does not imply some grave sexism but instead differing roles for differing people which are not even mandatory for every Catholic.
This reminds me of the conflicts between feminist groups and Orthodox Judaism. Reform/Conservative Judaism has entirely embraced feminism and in fact a majority of Jews adhere to those latter two sects, but for Orthodox Jews still adhere to older rules which Feminists decry as sexist. For example only Male Rabbi, Cohen, Kantors, and the gender specific seating and the rules around what men can do and what women can do. Feminist groups wish to change and regulate the Orthodox, however the Orthodox are not requiring anyone to join or be in their community... and why focus on attack a small group instead of empowering ones own?
I say, if you don't like Catholicism, start your own church.
Woody Dunkin
This debate was started in support of correcting the unequal treatment of women in society. Because it is systemic we need to ask ourselves why is it happening? By highlighting how just one influential organization perpetuates the unequal treatment of women hopefully will raise the awareness and lead to a correction. Cultural shifts take time and no one organization is to blame, but each one should be held responsible.
James Houston
Children, when they grow up, can decide to leave their family and their families culture all they like. Until then I suggest you butt out and leave people alone.
Jason Kather 10+
Would you walk on by if you saw a woman being abused by a man in the street? Would you sit idly by as, day after day, you witnessed a co-worker was being sexually harassed in the work place? Would you not do anything to help those around you who were being mistreated? By your "butt out" comment, I am assuming you would do just that and not involve yourself in their business. I call that being an immoral coward.
Woody Dunkin
Please find the courage to reflect back to when you were a child; vulnerable, impressionable. How easy is it for you to leave behind the prejudice and bias you were subject to? Are you even aware of them? By the time you are an adult it takes extraordinary awareness and intelligence to "leave the family's culture" you suggest.
We have a responsibility to the next generation (and ourselves) to coach forward. Surely we can do better than being indifferent toward injustices. Shouldn't generations co-exist rather than being a passive witness to injustice and butting out?
Amily shaw 10+
Antonio Robateau
Antonio Robateau
And the fact that it is scripture attributes the source of its inspiration to God, meaning that you may interpret it all day long, but it cannot be rewritten - an interesting fact: not even by God Himself. The very thought of rewriting the words of an existing and reigning Authority brings condemnation from that Authority upon the rewriter. God is still on His throne. After that changes you may rewrite at will without effect.
Jason Kather 10+
"At the time, slavery was like a low form of all expenses paid employment - not a bad thing then if you were poor."
That is a sick, twisted thing to say, in my opinion. Do you feel that we should go to Somalia and bring all of the starving children to our region to be used as slaves?---beaten and raped as we see fit? I find that disgusting.
I won't continue this conversation with you other than to say that Slavery is just one topic of contention contained in your Bible. The list of condoned atrocities goes on and on. Making excuses for them is one way of saying that they are wrong and not to be done anymore. This is rewriting the scripture...If it was good enough for God then, why is it not good enough now? According to your own reasoning, you are either one of the most immoral people I have ever had an internet conversation with or you are going to hell for denying scripture.
Woody Dunkin
Would a separate debate be more relevant for your comments? E.g. Is God the author of the Bible? Antonio's Rationale for Slavery?
Jason Kather 10+
Quote: "My point was 'deviation from the Bible' which states there is now no more distinction between Greek or Jew, Slave or Free, Woman or Man. That seemed to open up a worm hole on Old Testament scripture that I can't seem to communicate IS PAST AWAY"
The quotes that you and I provided are from THE NEW TESTAMENT!!! Jesus clearly has no issues with slavery.
You're blind acceptance and rationalization of such things sickens me. You said Slavery is a good thing!?!?
Antonio Robateau
Gisela McKay 30+
Jason Kather 10+
Antonio Robateau
26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.
27 For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.
28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male [b]and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham's Seed], then you are Abraham's offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise."
- Galatians 3:28 (expanded in context to 19-29)
Antonio Robateau
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28, the New Testament, the Bible
I was raised in a Catholic school. I am a Christian, not a Catholic. The head of my local church is a woman, the global head of my protestant church is a woman.
Jason Kather 10+
The quote from the Bible you picked is quite pleasant at first glance. What is it really saying though? Obviously there is Greek and Jew, Male and Female, so there must be Slave and Master as well? Just because Jesus loves everyone does not make the idea of owning slaves permissible. What about some other quotes?
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them." (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
It is a benefit to have a modern human be able to take some of the archaic ideas out of the Bible. Islam could learn a lot from that in my opinion. I could go on all day with disgusting examples from the Bible. Exodus and Leviticus are quite full of them.
I feel that if the Papacy were secular, had a system of checks and balances, and were democratically elected every four or so years, Catholicism would be a much better religion. :)
Antonio Robateau
"19 What then was the purpose of the Law? It was added [later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt] because of transgressions and [to make men more conscious of the sinfulness] of sin; and it was intended to be in effect until the Seed (the Descendant, the Heir) should come, to and concerning Whom the promise had been made. And it [the Law] was arranged and ordained and appointed through the instrumentality of angels [and was given] by the hand (in the person) of a go-between [Moses, an intermediary person between God and man].
20 Now a go-between (intermediary) has to do with and implies more than one party [there can be no mediator with just one person]. Yet God is [only] one Person [and He was the sole party in giving that promise to Abraham. But the Law was a contract between two, God and Israel; its validity was dependent on both].
21 Is the Law then contrary and opposed to the promises of God? Of course not! For if a Law had been given which could confer [spiritual] life, then righteousness and right standing with God would certainly have come by Law.
22 But the Scriptures [picture all mankind as sinners] shut up and imprisoned by sin, so that [the inheritance, blessing] which was promised through faith in Jesus Christ (the Messiah) might be given (released, delivered, and committed) to [all] those who believe [who adhere to and trust in and rely on Him].
23 Now before the faith came, we were perpetually guarded under the Law, kept in custody in preparation for the faith that was destined to be revealed (unveiled, disclosed),
24 So that the Law served [a][to us Jews] as our trainer [our guardian, our guide to Christ, to lead us] until Christ [came], that we might be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God) by and through faith.
25 But now that the faith has come, we are no longer under a trainer (the guardian of our childhood).
Jason Kather 10+
All of this only says that it is permitted to own slaves. A promise of heaven to everyone, including slaves, does not address the act of slavery in any other way than to condone it. Evil, wicked, immoral as seen by our current society, but in the time in which it was written, slavery was widely accepted. This reinforces my belief that scripture must be not only reinterpreted, but rewritten as time goes if it has any chance of surviving.
Santiago Castro
1) The Priests also have a bow of obedience.
2) A large amount of priests have a bow of poverty that dont allow them to own property.
3) The situation with the male office have a deep teological explanation
Matthieu Miossec 100+
Benny boy
Feels like that childhood story 'the emporers new clothes' and i am saying look his naked to a crowd of people.
Personally I think nuns are responsible for their own beliefs, even though its easy to say look men did this, if im accepting responsibility so you can too.
If all those women believed in equality would they still be there? you say religion is male dominated..why the support? dare i say its harder to be dominated by someone else's beliefs than stand up for your own?
Jason Kather 10+
'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
Fortunately, the slavery part has no grey area and therefore can't be hidden as easily in the religion. Unfortunately, the idea of reducing a man's wife to his property to be viewed in the same way as his house, ox, or donkey can be hidden more easily.
I agree with the people who have said that no religion truly teaches equality of gender. Some religions are obviously more extreme in their views than others.
I saw that mother of Jesus was brought up as a shining example of how women are held in high esteem in the Catholic religion... I wonder how the story of the "other" Mary, Mary Magdalene, would be described by those who support the Catholic Church and argue that women are viewed as man's equal in this religion? I find it ironic that just about the time that the Koran was being "revealed" to Mohammed, the Pope at the time was calling Mary Magdalene a prostitute---600AD was certainly a better time to be born as a male than a female. This view of Mary Magdalene was not officially rejected by the Catholic Church until 1969---proof that things are getting better as far as gender equality goes, but it does seem like too little, too late.
The references to gender IN-equality in religion seem to be endless.
Debra Smith 100+
Woody Dunkin
You are mistaken regarding your propaganda assertion. All organizations that influence the youth of societies have a responsibility to promote healthy relations between men and woman.
Fair and equal treatment is a requirement of ones perceived value; especially from authority figures.
Debra Smith 100+
I love your final line:Fair and equal treatment is a requirement of ones perceived value; especially from authority figures.
Antonio Robateau
Now saying all are worth so much is worth listening to, but in the end it is what each believes despite opposition.
Debra Smith 100+
'In reality, and in Islam, the rights and responsibilities of a woman are equal to those of man, but they are not necessarily identical with them. Equality and sameness are two very different things. I think you’ll agree that, for one thing, women and men are physically very different from one another, although they are equal to each other in other important ways.'
Salim Solaiman 50+
Luigi Vampa
E G 10+
Aidan Nickel
E G 10+
sterling gilbertine
Debra Smith 100+
Luigi Vampa
E G 10+
sterling gilbertine
Benny boy
Comment deleted
Debra Smith 100+
Boooooooooooooooo to you again, Eduard!
E G 10+
It's simple: you aren't a man .
Debra Smith 100+
sterling gilbertine
making generalizations like that is a poor choice. you hold a certain opinion and are a man, since when does that mean that men who don't share your opinion... aren't men? that does not make sense.
Benny boy
sterling gilbertine
Benny boy
i was referring to eduards post saying quote"1 day ago: Stearling:
It's simple: you aren't a man ."
sterling gilbertine
E G 10+
Benny boy
E G 10+
Woody Dunkin
sterling gilbertine
tishe Hires 10+
Richard Nota 20+
This is the type of fundamental core issue that changes a religion for non religious reasons. There are many such issues and I doubt that many Catholics hold the 'official' Catholic doctrine anyway. In other words, Catholicism is not what it would officially purport to be. That applies to many issues besides this.
In other words, there are many reasons to say that main stream religions and Catholicism in particular are more about belonging to a 'religious' organisation with a contiguous history rather than contiguous religious beliefs even though the hard core would like to profess the opposite.
If you want to change your beliefs you do not have to remain Catholic.
The serious question is whether there is a sound Catholic reason for changing the religious practice you want to change.
Andrew Wiggin
Woody Dunkin
I simply want to point out the inequality - women are not allowed to hold high office within the catholic church. Only men can be clergy; priests, pastors, bishops, cardinals or pope.
A woman in the catholic church does not have the choice. The man can choose to be a monk or be ordained as clergy. The woman does not have the choice; hence the inequality.
Should society respond if business organizational policy allowed only men to rise to management or executive level positions? What message would that send about the value of women?
Debra Smith 100+
Woody Dunkin
Tony Porter's "A Call to Men" presentation is the motivation behind my debate. You are correct, there are so many organizations and religions perpetuating the inequality of women. We need to address them all. I simply wanted to debate what I've experienced. I do hope this encourages others to debate inequalities they witness and challenge them as well.
Debra Smith 100+
Sidharth Hariharan
Woody Dunkin
Sidharth Hariharan
Woody Dunkin
Thank you again for giving my debate your attention.
Sidharth Hariharan
Woody Dunkin
Sidharth Hariharan
Mr. Anony mouse
Oh by the way, regarding the nun/priest property (if any), celibacy is there simply to channel wealth to "church" by preventing it's members production of offspring and thus cause annoynces with potential future legal inheritance competition. Nice business model?!
Frans Kellner 50+
Woody Dunkin
I grew up in a Catholic household (catholic school, church, altar boy) and I questioned then and now this inherent inequality. I have a wife, daughters and a son; I could not maintain my self-respect and integrity and be a member any longer.
Unless we as a society question organizations that perpetuate the inequality of women under the guise of gods blessing, our wives and daughters will continue to have a higher probability of male victimization.
Frans Kellner 50+
Sidharth Hariharan
Sabin Muntean 30+
What I think is important to keep in mind here is that Catholicism is by far not the only religion that the sentences above apply to.