- Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
- Madrid
- Spain
This conversation is closed. Start a new conversation
or join one »
Do you think that God created the Universe? If that was the case, how was that supposed to happen?
Yesterday I had had a conversation with my friend Indira that led us to accept the possibility that time may not exist. Having just woken up in the morning, I suddenly started thinking on the implications and whether or not it could be demonstrated that if time didn't exist then God could not exist.
Then I started building a set of initial basic reasonably accepted set of hypothesis that helped me to sort out all my thoughts and check if I could reach such conclusion.
My curiosity was increasing as I was building the logic. At the end I ended up absolutely astonished after reaching the conclusion that there is not way how God could have possibly created the Universe.
I cannot explain the whole logic because there is a limit of 2000 characters but in a nutshell:
The set of hypothesis to begin with:
1) God exists
2) The Universe exists (WE KNOW THIS ONE IS TRUE)
3) God is everlasting, He didn't have a beginning and He will last forever
4) God created the Universe
5) The Universe had a beginning
6) Time exists
Conclusions:
- If God created the Universe, why did He create it in a precise moment, not sooner or later? It doesn' make sense.
- If Time didn't exist then God is not everlasting and the Universe didn't have a beginning. God could have not possibly created the Universe in that case because then both God and the Universe emerged simultaneously.
- If the Universe was eternal like God, then God could have not possibly created the Universe because, like in the previous case,.they would have emerged simultanously.
- If God was not everlasting then who created Him? We must admit that if God exists, unless the Universe created Him, He must be eternal. If the Universe created God anyway, the Universe could have not been created by Him.
So at the end the scenario where God could have possibly created the Universe doesn't seem to exist, does it?
I would appreciate your thoughts. Do you think that God created the Universe? And how could that happen?
Thank you
Showing single comment thread. View the full conversation.
Showing single comment thread. View the full conversation.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"If God created the Universe, why did He create it in a precise moment, not sooner or later?"
material (including human) is limited in time and place. so all concepts of time, before past soon late ,... have meaning for materials. but some things like God are not material and are not limited in time. God is not limited in time.
it is hard for human to imagine a universe out of time. but it is like when you are in sleep dream. even people go future in sleep (deja vu).
we are in material universe.
"If Time didn't exist "
time exist but time only limits material. non-material things like soul can easily go anywhere or any time with no limit.
"If the Universe was eternal "
our universe is material and any material has start and end.
"If God was not everlasting then who created Him?
God is the final cause of everything and is the only thing with no creator.
"Do you think that God created the Universe? "
sure. no doubt
"And how could that happen?"
we do not know all details but:
http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/1.htm
Andres Ricardo Chamarra
About "it is hard for human to imagine a universe out of time" and "our universe is material and any material has start and end"
Could we not agree that the universe is an immaterial plane of existence in which matter, time and ultimately us are contained instead of there being an immaterial universe outside or parallel to our material universe? I feel using the same term for two different things is rather confusing if not inaccurate.
What other things besides matter are there? (that we know of) doesn't energy have matter even minimal? if not, is energy really not affected by time anyway? (again I'm no physicist so I might get some of these notions wrong)
Why do you tie the existence of time to a necessity for beginning and end? Are space dimensions not infinite in measure as well? While the matter we use them to measure does have beginning and end? Could time not exist and yet be infinite lacking both beginning and end?
This one is a rather wild question and since I know very little about the Islamic religion I might make some wrong assumptions, so this is what I work with:
God exists
God is omniscient (among other omni-properties)
God has will
Being omniscient grants the persona of god a much larger width of existence, I believe most if not all religions agree on an infinite one, and yet we attach to it an anthropomorphic type of will. We explain this by saying (I'm not sure if this one is true to islam) that we were created in his image, and yet by being a much lesser entity we could only be a partial aspect of his image.
Wouldn't it be wrong then to anthropomorphize his will?
Again I know this can be a delicate issue, no disrespect is intended and any errors are out of ignorance.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
there are many universes parallel. I know at least 3 material universe and 1 immaterial universe all parallel. each material universe has its own material its own time its own physics laws. for example if we call current material universe no.1 if you go to material universe no.2 and stay there for one day (at time of material universe no.2) and then back to material universe no.1 you see 100 years has passed in material universe no.1 and all your friends has aged and died. also gravity and all things are different in different universes. but all are parallel. when you are at dream sleep you leave our material universe and enter another material universe.(with your soul).
"What other things besides matter are there?"
each material universe has its own material which is different properties. God, soul, angels, Jinns, Satan and so on are not material.
time is a creature of God and time is for material. what is not material has no time.
"energy" is not a "thing". It is a concept and a definition.
"It is often understood as the ability a physical system has to do work on other physical systems.[2][3] Since work is defined as a force acting through a distance (a length of space), energy is always equivalent to the ability to exert pulls or pushes against the basic forces of nature, along a path of a certain length."
so energy is a kind of ability and ability is a property of a thing. not a "thing"
"Why do you tie the existence of time to a necessity for beginning and end?"
this is a philosophical argument:
http://www.shiamultimedia.com/books/english/Muhammad%20Baqir%20As-Sadr%20-%20Our%20Philosophy.pdf
time is for material and material is always "changing" and what is changing has at least two situation: before change and after change. this means current material not existed before change and we have long chain of changes. also science (Big Bang) say so.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes material is limited in space and has dimension. it is impossible a material with unlimited dimension.
"Could time not exist and yet be infinite lacking both beginning and end?"
first you should decide about what universe you are talking. time is for material universes and has start and end. immaterial universes/things do not have time at all. time is a creature like apple.
"God exists
God is omniscient (among other omni-properties)
God has will"
correct,
"and yet we attach to it an anthropomorphic type of will. "
agree. we are humans and we have limitations in knowledge and we understand concepts by our own knowledge and experience.
actually we can not understand what is God. we only can know God by its attributes like power, knowledge ,... by looking at creatures of God (nature). its like you estimate the level of knowledge of maker of a product by looking at product instead of knowing maker directly.
when there is no way to a place you can not go there but you can near as possible.
"we were created in his image"
this is correct but has some wrong aspects. if you mean our existence is dependent to God will its OK. but if you mean God has a mind and needs to mind to create, NO. God not need anything for creating. God only will for creating.
we are human and communicate using words. words can not describe God perfect. but if no use of words no communicate.
Intuition is better way of knowing God.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
our mind is limited.
the only way of knowledge is not our limited knowledge.
human can learn from God.
revelation (communication of God with human) is the best source of knowledge. it has no error.
it was only an example. I mean before human what never seen like experience the universe out of time it is difficult to understand it.
"no one has the ability to know God. this is the fact."
this correct is about humans. but God gifts the knowing of himself to his friends. God know himself perfect and gives part of this knowledge to his friends.
do you know Koran? Koran is words of God and has lots of knowledge about God.
http://quran.al-islam.org/
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes but I do not consider it from God. human can make such book.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3789/proving_koran.html
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
what God you mean? I hope you not mean cow.
real God is creator of universes, creator of earth and all in earth and can protect himself, rises sun from east.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes i can."
so prove it. please in a new topic. I fear it be deleted for off topic
"i'm not talking about the God who ask his prophet to have sex with kids"
also I am not talking. you God only say marry to adult girls. but girls can be adult in age 9. about Aisha please read my past explains. did you see the youtube movie for it I mentioned?
"Real God is one who looks after all the races of the earth not just desert countries. "
agree. my God words is in Koran and in Koran you never can find God looks after just desert countries. it always says it is for all universes. for example:
http://tanzil.net/#38:87
http://tanzil.net/#21:107
"Real God is one who never ask his prophets to marry a child for whatever reason."
agree. God ask marry with adult. and sign of adult is not by age. for girls it is by seeing period blood that is possible in ages like 9.
Andres Ricardo Chamarra
I have to disagree here, and I think this goes or should go beyond any religious belief, adulthood is not the same as sexual development, the capacity to breed children is not equal to the fitness to rise them, which I would consider to be the real sign of maturity, when the proper uprising of a child's body, mind and if you will soul is within the capacity of the potential parent.
I've seen people surprisingly mature at 15 years of age and I've seen 30 or 40 year old men and women that I would still not qualify as adults nor trust in them the rising of a child. And that is without taking into account any mental handicap or decease.
While its true that shielding our kids from any responsibility until 18 or 21 as most occidental cultures do delays their maturity, I don't think even the most mature kid can be considered an adult at 10 years of age or less, even when humans life expectancy was at a history lowest, adulthood was considered to arrive at about 14 years of age.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I agree about Jesus (PBUH). but I not consider Buddhism from real God.
also finding original and not removed from Bible words of Jesus (PBUH) is hard today. why today there is at least 4 Bible? what means this. but Koran is only one.
you do not know Muhammad (PBUH) he has many enemies today that have access to large news and movie media and feed lies to people. please research and reconsider yourself not from TV and biased links. I suggest you www.al-islam.org
anyway its your life and your choice.
"for me it is a sin to marry a 9 yr-old "
OK so make your own religion and tell this to your followers. but in Islam it is not sin but only if that girls if adult.
"and more sin if you say Allah ask his friends to marry and thus making God a pimper."
what is problem of marriage? marriage is a need of human like eating food. God never said not marry. so why God created human pair? and if no marry human will extinct.
"Plz respect the Gods of other religion."
OK sorry
"plz don't quote your unreliable, biased link to me anymore."
Koran is base of Islam. I wanted to quote Islam.
about reliability it is a miracle:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3789/proving_koran.html
"does koran allow a Muslim grandma to marry a 9 yr-old boy if he is of matured? any one you know of from your country?"
yes. it is not banned in Koran and is allowed. but not mean recommended. marring to old women is proscribe while not banned. but there is other terms. not only this one.
"any one you know of from your country?"
no.
but there is some warm weather cities in Iran that girls become adult very soon and marriage of girls in ages like 9-11 is usual there.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
first this is your personal idea and can not be forced to people and perhaps wrong.
although adult at 9 is possible but it is rare today. today min. is 14-15 years for girls. but in warm cities like Arabia girls become adult sooner.
"rising of a child" can be gained by education and train and support of mother and family. the mother is not alone to rising of a child. although rising of a child is needed and important but can not be considered as a required term for marriage. this seems cruel to force people not marry before having proof for ability of "rising of a child". this can by by reward and training people not by required terms. in Islam there is tons of sayings of prophet for how to rise a child. and not respecting and good train of child is sin.
anyhow in Islam soon marriage is recommended and has reward by God.
"who marry has guarded 50% of his religion safe"
prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
"serendipity of a man is to his daughter not see blood in his home"
prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
science always has been developing and changing. but God knows more than human.
for example huge number of scientists recommended cigar for health in near 50 years ago and it was a healthy product.
Andres Ricardo Chamarra
Also of course its "perhaps wrong", after all I am human ;)
I also never said anything about marriage, I was speaking of adulthood, I did not say that being able to rise a child properly should be a necessary condition to get married, although I do suggest it should be a desired condition to actually having a child.
We clearly have different definitions of what adulthood means, to me adulthood is a combination of intellectual, emotional and moral maturity that grants the person complete independence (whether he exercises it or not).
And yes, once again this is my opinion and its based on my own meditation on the subject.
I think we have gone horribly of topic BTW :P
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
Thank you for the comment. I think I understand what you say.
I have also been reading the content in Sermon 1 in Nahj to get further understand of the hypothesis established.
It says "He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed" . And when describing the creation of the universe it also says that "He (God) allotted all things their times".
So we have all the following statements, please let me know if the following is correct:
- God is not material
- God has no limits
- God commands Time at his own will (this is an interesting one)
- God has not been created
- God is unique
- The Universe is material
- The Universe is attached to Time and Space limits because is material, therefore has start and end like all material things.
- Within the Universe there are non-material things however like the soul. Non-material things have no limits in Time or Space.
I have got doubt with 2 of them, may I ask you if the following 2 statements are true?
- Before God created the Universe everything was non-material. Therefore Time could not possibly exist before the creation of the Universe (because Time only applies to material things). Is that correct?
- God is eternal because He didn't have a start and He doesn't have end. I have doubt in this one, because if Time didn't exist before the Universe was created by God, that could actually explain how God and the Universe came to life apparently simultaneously (from the material perspective) :)
Thank you :)
Andres Ricardo Chamarra
The fact that you have nothing to measure does not imply that the scale to measure it does not exist, if matter can be measured in time as well as size and weight, it does not create time, it is measured by it, it moves across it.
Even the void can be measured for size, even "empty" is a measure of content.
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
But I think in this case is different, because I think that what Ahmadi is saying is that non-material world and material world are quite different. Check http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/default.asp?url=1.htm paragraph 3
So Time in the non-material and material side are 2 different things, like apples and oranges, so we could not take the scale to measure things in the material side and use it in the non-material side.
Still a bit confussed because I don't know if we should say that "Time didn't exist" or "Time did exist but not a way understandable from the maerial perspective"
Andres Ricardo Chamarra
No, whether or not humans are aware of the existence of something, it still exists, that is kind of like the tree in the forest metaphor, its meant o make you think about perception and blah blah blah, but strictly and literally speaking yes, it does produce sound.
Also most smart religious people would answer to "I don't believe in god" with "his existence does not require your belief of it" and I think we all remember "e pur si muove".
But that as not my point, my point is that even if the total sum of every particle's mass in the world summed to zero (by which I mean there is nothing with mass to be found), mass still exists, I say the same thing about time, even when there is not a single particle to be affected by time in all of existence, that does not render time itself inexistent.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
which universe? our universe is not the only material universe.
time is for material. we can say before existence of any kind of material no time existed. although "before" existence of time has no meaning.
"because if Time didn't exist before the Universe was created by God, that could actually explain how God and the Universe came to life apparently simultaneously "
please first define what you mean by "before the Universe was created"?
before universe no time existed. so "before" has no meaning there.
some times "before" is causal "before" not timely before". it means any thing has a cause and there is a chain of causes. time itself is one chain and before time exist the "before" means "previous cause" even beyond time. time itself has another cause.
understanding universe of out time is hard. its like explaining enjoy of sex to a 5 years child.
the only way is experiencing it.
we experiences it to some extend in some types of sleep dream.
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
I used the word "before" I think, because in that moment it didn't come up to my mind other way to say it. How could have I asked it in better way (non-causal)? :)
Anyway I think we had the same picture in mind: if before a point in timeline time doesn't exist, then there is not timeline before that point :)
May I ask you a further question?
Could God create another exactly equal God, if he wished to do so?
If we say that God has not limit then the answer should be Yes.
If we say that God was not created then the answer is No.
So applying logic, or God was not created (so another copy of God cannot be created, not even by God) or God has no limits (therefore he could create a copy of himself if he wished). Which one is false?
thank you :)
Comment deleted
Comment deleted