- Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
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Do you think that God created the Universe? If that was the case, how was that supposed to happen?
Yesterday I had had a conversation with my friend Indira that led us to accept the possibility that time may not exist. Having just woken up in the morning, I suddenly started thinking on the implications and whether or not it could be demonstrated that if time didn't exist then God could not exist.
Then I started building a set of initial basic reasonably accepted set of hypothesis that helped me to sort out all my thoughts and check if I could reach such conclusion.
My curiosity was increasing as I was building the logic. At the end I ended up absolutely astonished after reaching the conclusion that there is not way how God could have possibly created the Universe.
I cannot explain the whole logic because there is a limit of 2000 characters but in a nutshell:
The set of hypothesis to begin with:
1) God exists
2) The Universe exists (WE KNOW THIS ONE IS TRUE)
3) God is everlasting, He didn't have a beginning and He will last forever
4) God created the Universe
5) The Universe had a beginning
6) Time exists
Conclusions:
- If God created the Universe, why did He create it in a precise moment, not sooner or later? It doesn' make sense.
- If Time didn't exist then God is not everlasting and the Universe didn't have a beginning. God could have not possibly created the Universe in that case because then both God and the Universe emerged simultaneously.
- If the Universe was eternal like God, then God could have not possibly created the Universe because, like in the previous case,.they would have emerged simultanously.
- If God was not everlasting then who created Him? We must admit that if God exists, unless the Universe created Him, He must be eternal. If the Universe created God anyway, the Universe could have not been created by Him.
So at the end the scenario where God could have possibly created the Universe doesn't seem to exist, does it?
I would appreciate your thoughts. Do you think that God created the Universe? And how could that happen?
Thank you
Frans Kellner 100+
God is created by men because before any animal could name things there was no God.
What did men have in mind that they gave the name God?
It was a substitute for all kinds of names depending on the culture the word was introduced to: Odin, Baal, to name a few well known. All those names stood for the creator and beholder of all that exist. For most people being the first ancestor.
To think that thought of a creator you must first create the idea that because something exists it must have been not existent as is with manmade products. Before men made things there was no such thought. What is, is - although continue changing.
If we follow those changes back and in fold the unfolding of life, univers etc. and time is relative to distance and mass than time would stop at a singularity as space does.
If you feel that to be is a contiinuous state of being in that sense that if there is anything there always has been something because something can't come out of nothing it is puzzling. But if you see that past and future are constructions of the mind of that everlasting moment that appears to us as ever changing than time lost its reality. And of course with time also space is nothing but a way of thinking.
The universe is a projection of consciousness and you may as well call it God as well as anything else. And living means to be conscious from within that ultimate consciousness and out from a point of perspective defined by space and time. And to be human means to be self-aware of that consciousness. But in thinking we then separate ourselves as the one that is thinking which is the human fault.
Peter Law 30+
Interesting question. I think strict logic breaks down & we are in a realm that is beyond us with this; but here is my best shot.
God is all powerful & eternal.
He decided He wanted a family.
He created time, space, & matter, & created us in His image.
The universe is our nursery & will be replaced.
We will live forever with our dad, if we chose to do so.
If we were not related to God, is it likely that we (& only we; among all creatures) would be capable of understanding anything of how the universe is constructed ? Science started with men reasoning that if God made the universe; then it should be constructed in a uniform & understandable manner. This should allow us to understand how things are made. If on the other hand the universe came into being without rational planning, then it would be chaotic & follow no logic.
As we know the hunch of the early scientists was correct & the universe; incl. life; follows very precise laws which we can understand. I would think that the odds on there being no Creator God are very long indeed.
:-)
Frans Kellner 100+
Alireza Akhavan 10+
If God does not create universe can somebody tell me, how the universe was created?
Note that physics and specially cosmologist can not approve the creation of universe without God. As you mention that hawking said there is possibility to have no God. He said that we have some good evidences, NOT saying "absolutely" there is no need for God.
Physicist do believe that every experimental and scientific theory have some crashes and why this thing that hawking says should be true? may be it is false. As we all know that for about 300 years people thinks that Newtonian mechanics is the best theory that works correct and there is no fault in it. But Einsteine showed that all the people within "300 years" were wrong. So maybe it takes many years to prove hawking is wrong or correct (as i hear some of the talks about this theory that people do not accept it).
Don't judge too soon.
And i have something to tell later...
Christophe Cop 500+
Your question is a leading question...
First you need to ask:
Is the universe created?
Only if that answer is yes, you can ask 'by what?'
As we don't have an answer to the (preceding) question:
"How come this universe exists?" we cannot start to ask the above questions, let alone postulate a response.
We have quite accurate descriptions of our universe (still a lot of it is unknown too: like dark matter and dark energy), but that does not answer the question. Those descriptions don't have a god in it.
If the universe is created, then the thing that created it might be called 'god'... though we have a new question: How came this 'god' into being?
The most honest stance is the one of the agnost: "we don't know" and that goes both ways. Claiming 'god did it' is wrong as is 'it just happened' a wrong answer...
As for my personal stance, I don't see the need for a god in a model about the origin of our universe.
Though I encourage you to study physics and join those researchers who try and find an answer :-)
Alireza Akhavan 10+
"Every theory have some faults!" and maybe hawking is wrong and I think he is absolutely wrong. It is for God is not a physical problem!
Problem is here that something as you said that is the universe created? or universe is created by God or not?
As you know this is not a physical problem. For solving physical problems an important thing we need is measurement of variables or parameters. What do we measure about God? What hawking measures? this is an important point that we understand existence of God is not a physical problem.
A problem that physics encounters when talking about God is that it can not say anything before Big Bang. And absolutely it should not say anything since physics is science of observing and measurement and it is forbidden to talk about anything that can not measure or observe.
The problem is solved in two ways:
1. philosophy (that is accepting by mind)
2. accepting by heart
I am ready to argue more about physics and more about solution. .
:)
uniontera ja
God can make a reason but there is no an answer. (This is your so-called destiny & chance.)
Sometimes I say, Newton's apple is more clever than Newton.
Let's go!
This is my uniontera.
Existence is the time expressed by light itself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN1jTwHUC7E
"Big bang is to porsche what uniontera is to ferrari."
Prakar Jeevan
If god created the universe, from where he created it?.,
Goran Malic
So if we conclude that your 6 premises lead to a paradox, it still doesn't disprove the existence of a creator. It could be that in the house on the beach where the creator created our universe some different set of rules and regulations apply.
It's something like a game of chess - chess pieces follow a set of rules imposed by a creator, but outside the chessboard, the creator doesn't have to play according to the rules of chess. Even within the chessboard universe the creators (players) can agree to change the rules just for fun.
Christophe Cop 500+
Thus far I have not found any definition of any god-image that adds to an explanatory model of the world we live in that is more satisfactory than the ones without it.
God probably does not exist. Cope with it... (or build yourself an image that makes it consistent with what you think the universe looks like)
The only god images I can think of that fit your question are the sophiphobic god-images (which I pity), or the un-acting god images (who are redundant): they put out the universe into existence without us able to know how.
If an existing god would be like that, I would mock her.
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Helen Hupe 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"INMHO God is not a being"
this is your opinion and God not need your opinion for exist.
time is created by God like apple and human.
"Also do you believe that our universe was the first one created ?"
no
Helen Hupe 30+
I do not know if our universe was the first or only universe created. It seems ridiculous for me to assume that I know what went on before our universe was created.
dingle mcringleberry
Also we don't KNOW that the universe "exists" whatever that even means anymore.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
then "at once" has no meaning
dingle mcringleberry
But if we're making corrections, you spelled "than" wrong.
dingle mcringleberry
We need to stop assuming, and start searching. Maybe by some miracle higher entity did in fact create the universe. But let's not assume anything, this universe is an absolute jackpot. We have been gifted with the ability to experience, and dogmatic beliefs shield us from ever finding out the truth.
Science is everything, science is always right. If your religion turns out to be right, it would then become science. There is no way around science.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"science is always right."
disagree. science is always changing.
for example cigar. at 50 years ago most scientists said cigar is good for health.
examples of changes in science are much.
I am looking for a list of changed and even opposite opinions of science over time.
dingle mcringleberry
You literally missed my point completely.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
so how we can access to always right science you mean?
det ted
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Dick Byrd
You say: "I don't know if I should believe in God or not. I guess believing is better because it is like electricity, you can only discover something if you believe it, otherwise you don't research with the same conviction."
Actually , I believe the opposite is true. "believing" in something interferes with discovery. If you approach a study or experiment with a strong "belief" as to its outcome, you will not have the independence of vision required to do the experiment or study well.
Dick
Dustin Edwards
Tim blackburn 30+
Tim blackburn 30+
Alireza Akhavan 10+
We muslims believe that God create space and time. God is not dependent to time or space. Think about you give your child 10 piece of wood and tell him do some special job within you have at least one piece of wood. Then take one by one of them whenever you like. So you define a 'time' for your child. The story of creation of time is like this instead for God time passing does not have any definition. So for us time have exist but for God this is not true.
This is really another good example (like physicist mental test!):
Imagine that you are on the really really infinite road with your son and walking. You put your son in a approximately long (in length) box while you're standing outside of box (it is like a train car or train wagon). Then you and your son continue your walking. Then when your son reaches the end of the wagon, what is happened? He is aware of traveling a distance and is aware of passing time. But for you because you are on the infinite road nothing happened. you do not sense traveling any distance because you have same distance from first and end of the rode (because it is infinite, in physics this is absolutely acceptable). And about time? when traveling is coupled with time you don't feel anything about passing time.
I think it is wrote hard! or maybe the idea is hard to understand!
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
I am just thinking aloud: could it be a circular road with God standing static at the center of it and the son walking in circles around? In other words a finite road and an infinite walk?
I am just thinking in the possibility of having a circularity somewhere, but challenging to imagine.
Tim blackburn 30+
Alireza Akhavan 10+
But there is such a worthwhile thing that we believe the whole concept which God create space and time for humans, animals and etc.
And also we (muslims) believe that because God is infinite in everything our limited mind can not understand what exactly God is. As Ali son of Abitalib (PBUH) said:
"Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the dividing of understanding cannot reach; He whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy and praise exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed."
Dick Byrd
I don't believe there is a God, nor that any "Supreme Being" created the Universe. However, I find fault with your logic and reasoning.
You question why God created the Universe at some "...precise moment, not sooner or later." If God did create the Universe, that had to be a SOME moment (or moments), so the moment of creation is special only in that that was when He did it. Therefore, any time would have been the "special" time.
You say: "If Time didn't exist then God is not everlasting..." Many folks believe that God does not exist "in time" but that he exists independent of time. It is no proof of the non-existance of God to postulate about when time did not exist. Your reasoning does at all disprove the common belief that God has always existed independent of time, and when he created our universe, he started time for us here in this universe.
I don't believe in a God, because I find no proof for such an existence. -- BUT neither have I found conclusive logical proof that God does not exist.
Dick
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
"You question why God created the Universe at some "...precise moment, not sooner or later." If God did create the Universe, that had to be a SOME moment (or moments), so the moment of creation is special only in that that was when He did it. Therefore, any time would have been the "special" time."
I see your point. I think that when we include in the equation that "the universe was created for a purpose and its creation was planned" is when this logic makes more sense, otherwise is hard to see.
There are not actions that God could have possibly had to perform at a precise moment within eternity because he had all the eternity to perform every action.
If the creation of the universe had a purpose, then the purpose was to address a need that happened at a precise moment within eternity. Therefore the need of creating the universe at a precise moment is absurd (but only if the universe was created to fulfill a necessity).
"You say: "If Time didn't exist then God is not everlasting..." Many folks believe that God does not exist "in time" but that he exists independent of time."
Correct. The hypotheses set I was starting with was quite poor. I am missing few possibilities:
- Whether or not God transformed/converted himself into the Universe
- Whether or not God created the universe in different stages
- Whether or not there is a spiritual universe and a physical universe merged or combined
- and many more
I don't know if I should believe in God or not. I guess believing is better because it is like electricity, you can only discover something if you believe it, otherwise you don't research with the same conviction. We use electricity today because someone believed in electricity before having any evidence of its existance (I know it is a silly example but it helps me to believe).
Thank you for your comment
Juan
Jim Moonan 30+
The Blue Frog story is my own. I wrote it for my daughter when she was about 7 years old and recovering from having her tonsils removed in the hospital. I still tell it to my drama students to give them a sense of imagination. (I'm now going to use the Pear Story as well!) I will look around for the text of the Blue Frog and send it along to you at your email.
Thanks for this conversation - and the pear tree...
Jim Moonan 30+
I did for many years, but not so much anymore. What I learned along the way was that those questions cry out for proof, and there just isn't any conclusive proof. Maybe a thousand years from now our species will evolve to the point where it does know, but not now, not here.
Living a life based on a formal set of religious beliefs is fine (as long as it doesn't prevent another from experiencing and contributing to the world around us) but to spend time ( time is another topic not worth taking up too much of my time trying to figure out) debating, pouring through books to prove that we are right and everyone else is wrong about god, time, etc. Is - for me - not a good use of my limited time on this earth.
There is a story I tell children called, "How the Blue Frog Turned Green" that is too long to recount here, but I'll give you the moral of the story: " don't look at the sun, look at all the things it shines upon." Let me know if you would like the full version of it :)
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
In exchange I will tell you another one that someone shared with me and it is coming to my mind.
The story has to do with the pear tree in a country, which had four weather seasons, namely, winter, spring, summer and autumn.
There was a man who had four sons whom he wanted to teach not to judge things too quickly.
He sent each of them on a mission to go and look at a pear tree that was far away.
The first son went in the winter, the second in the spring, the third in the summer and the youngest in the fall or autumn.
When they had all gone and arrived, he called them together to describe to him what they saw.
The first son said that the tree was ugly, bent, and twisted.
The second son said that the tree was covered by green buds and was full of promise.
The third son disagreed and said the tree was full of sweet smelling blossoms that smelled so sweet and looked so beautiful.
The last son said that he saw the tree full of ripe fruit ready to be picked and full of life and fulfillment.
The father explained to them that all of them were right because each of them saw the tree in only one and different season of life.
He told them that you couldn’t judge a tree by only one season of life. The essence of what it is can only be measured at the end after completing all the seasons.
I would say not only that you are right Jim but also that you have gone through the process that I have just started and I appreciate your comment very much. I won't spend much time on this unless I eventually enjoy it. Thank you for your comment. I will be looking forward your story, thank you.
Alireza Akhavan 10+
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
I have found that people believe so many different things... Just as a curiosity, one of the only beliefs that doesn't seem to have believers is the case where God mutated into the Universe itself :)
Alireza Akhavan 10+
" Could God create another exactly equal God, if he wished to do so?
If we say that God has not limit then the answer should be Yes.
If we say that God was not created then the answer is No."
In Islamic philosophy "impossible" divided into three parts which are:
1. Inherently impossible
2. Occurrence impossible
3. Normal impossible
Normal impossible: is something that is impossible within the natural rules and principals that we have learned until now. For example someday human thinks that is absolutely impossible to reach the moon, even walk on the moon!
Occurrence impossible: is that some event occurs without having a reason.
Inherently impossible: is that for example something inherently could not occur or exist.
This last one is the case that you asked. The islamic philosophy says that this kind of impossible is that never would occur according to the inherent of the object or event.
Other examples are:
- could God create a big and very massive rock that even he could not lift it!
- having a color that is simultaneously black and white. Or something be true and in exactly that time be false.
- could god create a something more powerful than himself.
Remember these events are inherently impossible and does not limit God's power or does not contradict with God's unlimited ability.
Comment deleted
Alireza Akhavan 10+
So in your opinion God number one have ability to create God number 2 which is more powerful than himself. Then we have contradictions of having many Gods! And maybe the 2nd God could eliminate the 1st God and that is a contradiction because we assume that God is eternal. And also Islam (not islamic philosophy) defines God as the most powerful, most peaceful and most and best of many other advantages. So if God number 1 create God number2 powerful than himself, it is again a contradiction!
http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/
chapter 112, verse 1
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
What you are saying questions my thinking process.
I am learning a lot from the wide variety of views.
Thank you for commenting, really great answer :)
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"If God created the Universe, why did He create it in a precise moment, not sooner or later?"
material (including human) is limited in time and place. so all concepts of time, before past soon late ,... have meaning for materials. but some things like God are not material and are not limited in time. God is not limited in time.
it is hard for human to imagine a universe out of time. but it is like when you are in sleep dream. even people go future in sleep (deja vu).
we are in material universe.
"If Time didn't exist "
time exist but time only limits material. non-material things like soul can easily go anywhere or any time with no limit.
"If the Universe was eternal "
our universe is material and any material has start and end.
"If God was not everlasting then who created Him?
God is the final cause of everything and is the only thing with no creator.
"Do you think that God created the Universe? "
sure. no doubt
"And how could that happen?"
we do not know all details but:
http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/1.htm
Andres Ricardo Chamarra
About "it is hard for human to imagine a universe out of time" and "our universe is material and any material has start and end"
Could we not agree that the universe is an immaterial plane of existence in which matter, time and ultimately us are contained instead of there being an immaterial universe outside or parallel to our material universe? I feel using the same term for two different things is rather confusing if not inaccurate.
What other things besides matter are there? (that we know of) doesn't energy have matter even minimal? if not, is energy really not affected by time anyway? (again I'm no physicist so I might get some of these notions wrong)
Why do you tie the existence of time to a necessity for beginning and end? Are space dimensions not infinite in measure as well? While the matter we use them to measure does have beginning and end? Could time not exist and yet be infinite lacking both beginning and end?
This one is a rather wild question and since I know very little about the Islamic religion I might make some wrong assumptions, so this is what I work with:
God exists
God is omniscient (among other omni-properties)
God has will
Being omniscient grants the persona of god a much larger width of existence, I believe most if not all religions agree on an infinite one, and yet we attach to it an anthropomorphic type of will. We explain this by saying (I'm not sure if this one is true to islam) that we were created in his image, and yet by being a much lesser entity we could only be a partial aspect of his image.
Wouldn't it be wrong then to anthropomorphize his will?
Again I know this can be a delicate issue, no disrespect is intended and any errors are out of ignorance.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
there are many universes parallel. I know at least 3 material universe and 1 immaterial universe all parallel. each material universe has its own material its own time its own physics laws. for example if we call current material universe no.1 if you go to material universe no.2 and stay there for one day (at time of material universe no.2) and then back to material universe no.1 you see 100 years has passed in material universe no.1 and all your friends has aged and died. also gravity and all things are different in different universes. but all are parallel. when you are at dream sleep you leave our material universe and enter another material universe.(with your soul).
"What other things besides matter are there?"
each material universe has its own material which is different properties. God, soul, angels, Jinns, Satan and so on are not material.
time is a creature of God and time is for material. what is not material has no time.
"energy" is not a "thing". It is a concept and a definition.
"It is often understood as the ability a physical system has to do work on other physical systems.[2][3] Since work is defined as a force acting through a distance (a length of space), energy is always equivalent to the ability to exert pulls or pushes against the basic forces of nature, along a path of a certain length."
so energy is a kind of ability and ability is a property of a thing. not a "thing"
"Why do you tie the existence of time to a necessity for beginning and end?"
this is a philosophical argument:
http://www.shiamultimedia.com/books/english/Muhammad%20Baqir%20As-Sadr%20-%20Our%20Philosophy.pdf
time is for material and material is always "changing" and what is changing has at least two situation: before change and after change. this means current material not existed before change and we have long chain of changes. also science (Big Bang) say so.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes material is limited in space and has dimension. it is impossible a material with unlimited dimension.
"Could time not exist and yet be infinite lacking both beginning and end?"
first you should decide about what universe you are talking. time is for material universes and has start and end. immaterial universes/things do not have time at all. time is a creature like apple.
"God exists
God is omniscient (among other omni-properties)
God has will"
correct,
"and yet we attach to it an anthropomorphic type of will. "
agree. we are humans and we have limitations in knowledge and we understand concepts by our own knowledge and experience.
actually we can not understand what is God. we only can know God by its attributes like power, knowledge ,... by looking at creatures of God (nature). its like you estimate the level of knowledge of maker of a product by looking at product instead of knowing maker directly.
when there is no way to a place you can not go there but you can near as possible.
"we were created in his image"
this is correct but has some wrong aspects. if you mean our existence is dependent to God will its OK. but if you mean God has a mind and needs to mind to create, NO. God not need anything for creating. God only will for creating.
we are human and communicate using words. words can not describe God perfect. but if no use of words no communicate.
Intuition is better way of knowing God.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
our mind is limited.
the only way of knowledge is not our limited knowledge.
human can learn from God.
revelation (communication of God with human) is the best source of knowledge. it has no error.
it was only an example. I mean before human what never seen like experience the universe out of time it is difficult to understand it.
"no one has the ability to know God. this is the fact."
this correct is about humans. but God gifts the knowing of himself to his friends. God know himself perfect and gives part of this knowledge to his friends.
do you know Koran? Koran is words of God and has lots of knowledge about God.
http://quran.al-islam.org/
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes but I do not consider it from God. human can make such book.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3789/proving_koran.html
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
what God you mean? I hope you not mean cow.
real God is creator of universes, creator of earth and all in earth and can protect himself, rises sun from east.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes i can."
so prove it. please in a new topic. I fear it be deleted for off topic
"i'm not talking about the God who ask his prophet to have sex with kids"
also I am not talking. you God only say marry to adult girls. but girls can be adult in age 9. about Aisha please read my past explains. did you see the youtube movie for it I mentioned?
"Real God is one who looks after all the races of the earth not just desert countries. "
agree. my God words is in Koran and in Koran you never can find God looks after just desert countries. it always says it is for all universes. for example:
http://tanzil.net/#38:87
http://tanzil.net/#21:107
"Real God is one who never ask his prophets to marry a child for whatever reason."
agree. God ask marry with adult. and sign of adult is not by age. for girls it is by seeing period blood that is possible in ages like 9.
Andres Ricardo Chamarra
I have to disagree here, and I think this goes or should go beyond any religious belief, adulthood is not the same as sexual development, the capacity to breed children is not equal to the fitness to rise them, which I would consider to be the real sign of maturity, when the proper uprising of a child's body, mind and if you will soul is within the capacity of the potential parent.
I've seen people surprisingly mature at 15 years of age and I've seen 30 or 40 year old men and women that I would still not qualify as adults nor trust in them the rising of a child. And that is without taking into account any mental handicap or decease.
While its true that shielding our kids from any responsibility until 18 or 21 as most occidental cultures do delays their maturity, I don't think even the most mature kid can be considered an adult at 10 years of age or less, even when humans life expectancy was at a history lowest, adulthood was considered to arrive at about 14 years of age.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I agree about Jesus (PBUH). but I not consider Buddhism from real God.
also finding original and not removed from Bible words of Jesus (PBUH) is hard today. why today there is at least 4 Bible? what means this. but Koran is only one.
you do not know Muhammad (PBUH) he has many enemies today that have access to large news and movie media and feed lies to people. please research and reconsider yourself not from TV and biased links. I suggest you www.al-islam.org
anyway its your life and your choice.
"for me it is a sin to marry a 9 yr-old "
OK so make your own religion and tell this to your followers. but in Islam it is not sin but only if that girls if adult.
"and more sin if you say Allah ask his friends to marry and thus making God a pimper."
what is problem of marriage? marriage is a need of human like eating food. God never said not marry. so why God created human pair? and if no marry human will extinct.
"Plz respect the Gods of other religion."
OK sorry
"plz don't quote your unreliable, biased link to me anymore."
Koran is base of Islam. I wanted to quote Islam.
about reliability it is a miracle:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3789/proving_koran.html
"does koran allow a Muslim grandma to marry a 9 yr-old boy if he is of matured? any one you know of from your country?"
yes. it is not banned in Koran and is allowed. but not mean recommended. marring to old women is proscribe while not banned. but there is other terms. not only this one.
"any one you know of from your country?"
no.
but there is some warm weather cities in Iran that girls become adult very soon and marriage of girls in ages like 9-11 is usual there.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
first this is your personal idea and can not be forced to people and perhaps wrong.
although adult at 9 is possible but it is rare today. today min. is 14-15 years for girls. but in warm cities like Arabia girls become adult sooner.
"rising of a child" can be gained by education and train and support of mother and family. the mother is not alone to rising of a child. although rising of a child is needed and important but can not be considered as a required term for marriage. this seems cruel to force people not marry before having proof for ability of "rising of a child". this can by by reward and training people not by required terms. in Islam there is tons of sayings of prophet for how to rise a child. and not respecting and good train of child is sin.
anyhow in Islam soon marriage is recommended and has reward by God.
"who marry has guarded 50% of his religion safe"
prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
"serendipity of a man is to his daughter not see blood in his home"
prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
science always has been developing and changing. but God knows more than human.
for example huge number of scientists recommended cigar for health in near 50 years ago and it was a healthy product.
Andres Ricardo Chamarra
Also of course its "perhaps wrong", after all I am human ;)
I also never said anything about marriage, I was speaking of adulthood, I did not say that being able to rise a child properly should be a necessary condition to get married, although I do suggest it should be a desired condition to actually having a child.
We clearly have different definitions of what adulthood means, to me adulthood is a combination of intellectual, emotional and moral maturity that grants the person complete independence (whether he exercises it or not).
And yes, once again this is my opinion and its based on my own meditation on the subject.
I think we have gone horribly of topic BTW :P
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
Thank you for the comment. I think I understand what you say.
I have also been reading the content in Sermon 1 in Nahj to get further understand of the hypothesis established.
It says "He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed" . And when describing the creation of the universe it also says that "He (God) allotted all things their times".
So we have all the following statements, please let me know if the following is correct:
- God is not material
- God has no limits
- God commands Time at his own will (this is an interesting one)
- God has not been created
- God is unique
- The Universe is material
- The Universe is attached to Time and Space limits because is material, therefore has start and end like all material things.
- Within the Universe there are non-material things however like the soul. Non-material things have no limits in Time or Space.
I have got doubt with 2 of them, may I ask you if the following 2 statements are true?
- Before God created the Universe everything was non-material. Therefore Time could not possibly exist before the creation of the Universe (because Time only applies to material things). Is that correct?
- God is eternal because He didn't have a start and He doesn't have end. I have doubt in this one, because if Time didn't exist before the Universe was created by God, that could actually explain how God and the Universe came to life apparently simultaneously (from the material perspective) :)
Thank you :)
Andres Ricardo Chamarra
The fact that you have nothing to measure does not imply that the scale to measure it does not exist, if matter can be measured in time as well as size and weight, it does not create time, it is measured by it, it moves across it.
Even the void can be measured for size, even "empty" is a measure of content.
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
But I think in this case is different, because I think that what Ahmadi is saying is that non-material world and material world are quite different. Check http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/default.asp?url=1.htm paragraph 3
So Time in the non-material and material side are 2 different things, like apples and oranges, so we could not take the scale to measure things in the material side and use it in the non-material side.
Still a bit confussed because I don't know if we should say that "Time didn't exist" or "Time did exist but not a way understandable from the maerial perspective"
Andres Ricardo Chamarra
No, whether or not humans are aware of the existence of something, it still exists, that is kind of like the tree in the forest metaphor, its meant o make you think about perception and blah blah blah, but strictly and literally speaking yes, it does produce sound.
Also most smart religious people would answer to "I don't believe in god" with "his existence does not require your belief of it" and I think we all remember "e pur si muove".
But that as not my point, my point is that even if the total sum of every particle's mass in the world summed to zero (by which I mean there is nothing with mass to be found), mass still exists, I say the same thing about time, even when there is not a single particle to be affected by time in all of existence, that does not render time itself inexistent.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
which universe? our universe is not the only material universe.
time is for material. we can say before existence of any kind of material no time existed. although "before" existence of time has no meaning.
"because if Time didn't exist before the Universe was created by God, that could actually explain how God and the Universe came to life apparently simultaneously "
please first define what you mean by "before the Universe was created"?
before universe no time existed. so "before" has no meaning there.
some times "before" is causal "before" not timely before". it means any thing has a cause and there is a chain of causes. time itself is one chain and before time exist the "before" means "previous cause" even beyond time. time itself has another cause.
understanding universe of out time is hard. its like explaining enjoy of sex to a 5 years child.
the only way is experiencing it.
we experiences it to some extend in some types of sleep dream.
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
I used the word "before" I think, because in that moment it didn't come up to my mind other way to say it. How could have I asked it in better way (non-causal)? :)
Anyway I think we had the same picture in mind: if before a point in timeline time doesn't exist, then there is not timeline before that point :)
May I ask you a further question?
Could God create another exactly equal God, if he wished to do so?
If we say that God has not limit then the answer should be Yes.
If we say that God was not created then the answer is No.
So applying logic, or God was not created (so another copy of God cannot be created, not even by God) or God has no limits (therefore he could create a copy of himself if he wished). Which one is false?
thank you :)
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Andres Ricardo Chamarra
On my part I think that whether or not god exists is irrelevant, one does not need to behave in a particular way because god exists but rather because it is simply better that way.
Aristotle said (if the quote I read is to be believed) "I do by reason and thought that which others do for fear of the law" where Law can be both taken literally or thought as a third party imposed rule which would apply to god.
I have not perceived or experienced anything that makes me believe he does exist which means only that I don't know that he does, which is not the same as saying he doesn't.
If I am to take the Catholic model of what god is, I see no reason as to why he couldn't have created the conditions that led to the big bang (if that is actually how it went on, I hear there are still other theories and nothing can really be proven so far).
As to why would he, there you are venturing into the intentions and reasoning of an entity supposedly infinitely larger than the universe and time itself, I don't believe we have any means of perception to even theorize about it.
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
I think your comment is logical.
I am sorry that I couldn't explain the logic model, I had the limit of 2000 characters. Basically this is how it works: it is a case of playing with each of the hypotheses, setting some of them True or False and creating a variety of scenarios and keeping the ones that may make sense.
So you believe that god doesn't exist, then to show you how the logic model works, in the case that god didn't exist (which is feasible) the model would end up with the following 2 resulting possibilities:
1) Or the Universe is eternal AND Time exists
2) Or the Universe didn't have a beginning AND Time doesn't exists
This is the explanation. In the case that god didn't exist, it means that the Universe was not created by god. If the Universe was not created by God it wouldn't make sense to say that it had a spontaneous beginning in a precise moment of time. So if the Universe didn't have a beginning, then, 2 options: if Time exists then the Universe have always existed or if Time doesn't exist then it wouldn't be conceivable to think about the Universe's eternity or beginning.
When I run the model for all the possible scenarios, I come across a surprising conclusion: there is no scenario where god (if he existed) could have possibly created the Universe (in a way that makes sense).
When I created this conversation I knew that I should be asking believers how would they describe the scenario where the creation of the Universe could be described. Perhaps non-believers could also come up with some ideas of how could have god created the Universe in the hypothesis that he existed.
This will allow me to detect missing other relevant hypotheses or spot flaws in the logic process :)
May I ask you something then? You have said that you don't believe in god, and I don't find anything wrong with it. But if god existed, any idea of how the Universe could have been created by him?
Andres Ricardo Chamarra
Thinking from outside the views of religion, deities are the conceptual embodiment of all forces our knowledge and intellect is not able to understand or explain.
Statement: God exists.
God is omni(pretty much every property you can fit after that prefix :P).
The universe does not exist (yet).
Theory: God gets bored and feels the urge to create.
God creates the concentration of matter and energy that triggers the big bang (forgive any physic inaccuracies, I'm no physicist).
God lets the universe unfold.
Life comes to be.
If the starting premise "God got bored" doesn't make sense to you remember that our concept of god is often antropomorphized.
I also find that the conception that before the big bang there was nothing is a little unimaginative if not arbitrary, who is to say how that much energy got concentrated? if there was anything there before? it could have been the result of the collapse and implosion of something else that was there before, could it not? maybe there was a universe before this one and ours is the result of the cataclysmic collapse of the previous one, can anyone say it isn't with certainty?
On both sides of the debate (whether god exists or not) I've always find that their logic is based at one point or another in a belief rather than a certainty or fact, and that the person presenting the logic often confuses belief and opinion with certainty and fact, thus his logic is faulty.
Finally you seem to base most of your logic in this question: "- If God created the Universe, why did He create it in a precise moment, not sooner or later? It doesn' make sense."
Why not? ever heard of chance? haven't you ever said "I'm bored! let's burn some ants"?
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
Your scenario requires 2 further hypothesis I think: god is eternal and time exists.
If god was not eternal he would have had a beginning, if he had a beginning he would have been created and in that case he wouldn't be god anymore. And if time didn't exist he could not have created the universe because their existence takes place simultaneously. That's why I think you are in a scenario where these 2 assumptions (god eternal and time exists) should be enforced.
Now we can demostrate if god could have find himself bored and suddenly create the universe.
Ok, if God got bored that necessarily happened before he created the Universe.
Then "Why did god get bored in a precise moment, not sooner or later?" Here I am asking the same question again :) That's the trick. An answer could be "because it had passed some time after he had finished doing something else", and then the same question could be asked in the same way for the previous action and then the previous one and so on over and over again for any answer given in order to find out what ultimately triggered the sequence. So after a finite or infinite number of questions ("why that happened in that moment, not sooner or earlier?") we would end up:
1) finding an action that could not have possibly ocurred sooner or later but in a precise moment,
2) with a sequence of infinite actions that could have ocurred sooner or later and none of them in a precise moment.
The thing is that if an action that must occur in a precise moment exists, it doesn't make sense because we assume that god is eternal and time does exist, it doesn't make sense that an action had to occur in a precise moment. so number 1) doesn't make sense.
(let me submit a second comment to finish the reasoning :)
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
If God had been performing a list of infinite actions before the universe existed, the only possible sequences I can come up with are cyclical and include the creation of other universes:
1) create universe - expand it - collapse it - get bored - create universe - expand it - collapse it - get bored and so on,
2) create universe 1 - expand it - get bored - create universe 2 - expand it - get bored - create another one and so on
In essence if god is performing an infinite cyclical process (whatever the actions involved might be like get bored or any other) god would not ultimately have freedom to decide what to do next, it would be defined. In that case god would exist but his existence would not matter at all because god would be a slave of eternity. And that conclusion would turn False the hypothesis God exists (because he wouldn't meet the requirements to be the god that humans would expect to have).
Therefore God could have not gotten bored and suddenly create the universe at some precise moment within eternity (well, i realize that it would be more correct to say that it could actually be possible but extremely unlikely :))
The question "Why did god get bored in a precise moment, not sooner or later?" is a very powerful one because it makes god actions unnecessary and therefore god is not god hehe :p
Andres Ricardo Chamarra
Also, you suggest that if there was something before the only scenario you can come up with is that god was cyclically creating universes over and over for eternity, but that is because you are not aware of the possibility of something else to do, because you lack the perception ability to be aware of other things than the universe you live in, maybe before this universe he was doing something else that was not a universe.
Pretending to be certain otherwise is like saying the earth is flat, so many people believed so because they did not have the means to perceive otherwise, and the suggestion of it being round stroke them as non-sensical.
I believe that the "truth", the "existence" is so vast, even without it being necessarily infinite, that we are simply incapable of perceiving it entirely or even theorize it entirely, our theories are limited by the information we can perceive by our natural or artificial means, and however advanced they might be, they are finite and limited.
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
I think I couldn't conceive that god could have created the Universe accidentally or without a very deep planning. But the fact that I couldn't conceive that only means that I am not thinking correctly.
Let me think about that anyway, but at the moment I don't see the way to reason that is not possible that god, having or not having been involved in unknown activities, decided to create the universe suddenly, a beautiful day whenever.
Juan Ignacio Gonzalez Caralt
I was thinking about that and It seems that the only way to say that god could not have created the Universe as a result of chance, is introducing a new hypothesis in the equation, an hypothesis so obvious that cannot be considered false. But I don't find such hypothesis. I have found many good arguments to defend that god could not have created the universe just like the way i decide to have a coffee, so I think I will say in my writting that god could not have created the universe in most scenarios and I will mention the scenario where it could have happened.
Anyway having talked to other people in the internet and outside, it seems that the range of different beliefs that people have is massive; it is almost like 1 person - 1 belief, and I realize my model is quite poor :(
I have enjoyed our debate Andres, thank you