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## Is the universe finite or infinte.

The two scenarios in the debate:

The universe is infinte because numbers are infinite, and something that is finite cannot contain something that is infinite.

E.G a chocolate bar cannot contain infinite cocoa.

The universe is finite, it as a beginning and end, and there is no such thing as infinite numbers because the biggest number would be the amount of the smallest quanta contained in the universe.

E.G the amount of the smallest particle in the universe = the biggest number

These two are currently merged and I believe in modern day science they contradict each other.

Feel free to add more points to the discussion

## Matthieu Miossec 100+

## J Ali

## Luciano Anastassiou

## jeroen redegeld

also matter and energy are interchangable, divert all matter into energy and how do you propose to devide a wave function? you could go at it indefinently, infinitely.

also see:

http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.physics.relativity/2007-10/msg00797.html

## Kristofer Björnson 10+

Also, the expansion you reffer to is the fact that the distance between galaxies does expand, and the visible part of the universe expands. Once again imagine an infinite line of number, an infinite measuring rod that has the numbers 1, 2, 3, etc. written an inch apart. Now if you come back a week later and see that each number is spaced two inches apart you would conclude that the measuring rod is indeed expanding, yet it is infinite. It's therefore not a contradiction that the universe would be infinite, but still expanding.

## Luciano Anastassiou

## Tim blackburn 30+

## Luciano Anastassiou

## Tim blackburn 30+

## Luciano Anastassiou

## Sanyu Nagenda

Besides, energy cannot be created or destroyed by OUR species.

## Tim blackburn 30+

if u ask me, numbers are the construct, not energy.,

## Luciano Anastassiou

## Tim blackburn 30+

## James Turner 10+

Does this make any sense?? Maybe with each thought we create the universe. Maybe as a character from Terry Prachett's Disc World says the universe is destroyed and created every instant but it is so quick we cannot perceive it. I think if was one of his Unseen University students like Rincewind.

## Luke Ginter

## Prakar Jeevan

## Dick Byrd

I. certainly did not mean to imply that the Universe might not go on forever in the future, just that it definitely could not have already existed forever back in time.

2. If the energy density in the Universe approaches zero asymptotically over time, as you suggest, then in an infinite amount of time it would have reached zero, or more technically - infinitesimally small. That definitely is NOT the Universe we observe, hence it could not have existed for an infinite amount of time.

3. It is difficult to say anything about any Universe, or part of the Universe, that cannot be observed. So, I can only say that THIS Universe that we live in and we observe is finite in time and space,

Dick

## Dick Byrd

The Universe is expanding. If it had been expanding for infinite time, regardless of the expansion rate, the density of matter in the universe would now be zero. It is not, therefore the universe has not been here for an infinite time. Likewise, if the universe were infinite in size, all of the matter generated in the big bang would now all be dissipated throughout an infinite space, and the density would be zero. This does not describe the universe we live in. The density of matter is not zero, and there is useful energetic processes going on. The universe is finite.

## jeroen redegeld

Yes energy dissipates, but it is not destroyed, that would violate the first law of thermodynamics. even if an infinite space would hold a finite amount of energy, the system would never reach zero, just asymptotically aproach zero. even an infinite space would not be an absolute vacuüm if it contained one photon.

We can only say somerhing about the amount of matter in the observable universe, we don't know what is beyond that, it might even be infinity.

## Mountain River

The only descriptions of finite universes that I know of are bubble universes. These presumptions are based on the flawed perception that bubble universes are finite. Incorrect. The empty void around the bubble universe that the bubble is expanding into is a part of the universe as well.

How could existence be finite? The only real explanation I've heard so far is "positively curved circle" theory... but even that makes little sense to me. Why is the universe suddenly finite when it is a positively curved circle? Doesn't the empty (possibly not empty) void around it constitute "universe?"

If anyone can explain exactly HOW all of existence can be contained by... itself (because an "outside" would constitute more universe)... I'd like to hear it.

## jeroen redegeld

See the BBC horizon documentary "to infinity and beyond" on YouTube .

Deen it? Now i have à question.

If THE universe is infinite and an infinite number of things happen in it, then the universe can not be infinite.

One of the possibilities would be conditions happenig to allouw the universe to end, wouldn't it?

Also it's not clear if the possibilities would have to adhere to the fundamental laws of physics within this universe. So for instance can the DBZ saga be playing out somwhere?

These two considderations are not clear to me.

Any thoughts?

## Matthieu Miossec 100+

I don't remember this particular BBC show advancing the idea of a universe as more than a thought experiment. But it's been a while since I have seen it. My understanding is that the Big Bang implies a finite universe at least in some dimension of space.

## jeroen redegeld

somewhere someone with the same DNA is typing the same thoughts real time as me.

on the other hand. does infinity in this respect mean that everything neccesarily must hapen? it is a game of probability some impossible thing might happen a thousand times, others maby never ( it is a logical implidcation of infinity, paradoxical, but logic non the less)

and if i understood correct, it isn't a thought experiment. there is a distinction between the visible universe and beyond.

because of expantion light beyond the distance of the age of the universe can never reach us. so cosmologists have no idea what is beyond visible space. hence the question if it is finite or infinite.

i do understan that if it is the concept of infinity within the bounds of physics then it isn't truely infinite either anything we can dream of must happen or it is just every possible combination, a large number, but certainly not infinite.

## Patrick McCarthy

The Universe is not a thing, therefore, neither infinite or finite. I say that the Universe is in us, in consciousness and we are in the Universe. Looking at the word, Universe, breaking it down gives us "one-song," perhaps that may mean that any song played or sung out of harmony can have no life in it, as such. Therefore this might imply that Truth and Intelligence etc.,(both life giving) are both at the same time, our mental environment internally and environmentally.

Einstein may have called it the "grid," I think.

As long as we think of the Universe as being out there, requiring a telescope, we remain stuck in ignorance.

## Max Wagner

The universe doesn't contain an instance of every natural number. It can merely contain the natural numbers as a concept in the same way an ideal Turing Machine can theoretically enumerate every single natural number with only a finite amount of internal states (finite intelligence, infinite conceptual numbers)

Another way of putting this: just because we can think of infinite numbers doesn't mean there's infinitely many *things* in the universe.

## Sanyu Nagenda

It was here LONG before us, it will be here LONG after us. Therefore what we have to say about its relative "finiteness" or "infiniteness" means very little in the Existence equation.

Our species is not the center of All, much as it bruises our ample egos. Ask the atoms (or dark matter). They know better than anything whether they are finite or constantly expanding at an ever increasing rate into infinity.

## Kristofer Björnson 10+

## E G 10+

## Luciano Anastassiou

## E G 10+

## Peter Law 50+

Modern science seems to think that the universe is expanding; largely due to red-shifted light. If it is expanding then it cannot be infinite. It's going to be bigger tomorrow.

If it's not expanding then it may well be infinite.

:-)

## jeroen redegeld

## Babatunde Adebayo