- Adam Leeson
- Ashford
- United Kingdom
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Single Faith Schools
Faith schools breed sectarian societies. These are not healthy for integration, and breed lack of knowledge between cultures that are living within the same society. Lack of knowledge/understanding can produce fear, hate, intolerance, many things. Should we let faith schools (and by this I mean ALL faith schools; Catholic, Muslim, Protestant, ALL) create boundaries between people? Should we sacrifice integration for political correctness? If I have children, I want them to go to school with children of ALL backgrounds.
There will always be groups within society where people interact with each other more than others (e.g. People into certain types of music, people of a particular faith, people who speak the same language, etc etc). But isn't this something to minimise? Especially when it involves cultures? Isn't integration important for understanding? And isn't understanding important for loving and knowing the people around you?
What do you think?
Obviously I have quite a negative outlook towards single faith schools. It would be good to hear something positive about them. Its always necessary to hear both sides of an argument.
EDIT: I would like to emphasise that I think multi-faith schools are necessary.
Peter Law 10+
I understand your concerns. However in a free society the parents have the responsibility for the upbringing of their children. My children were educated in regular school, although my daughter went to music school in her early teens.
If we have no choice in schools then it leaves the way open for indoctrination by the government of the day.
There are many things today which would come under the 'political correctness' banner which I believe to be highly corrosive to society. If I had children of school age today, I may well look at alternatives. Many people send their children to faith schools just to be taught plain respect & decency, which has given way to chaos in many places.
Sure there will be bad faith schools as well as bad regular schools, but we musn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The more choice the better.
:-)
Adam Leeson
Obviously, if faith schools were done away with all schools would have to be much more prepared in certain respects, and would possibly need different specialists in each school. And I suppose there could be some tensions in an environment where children in the same school were not included in the same activities. Although, having said this, I have some friends who went to a school where there was a large percentage of children belonging to faiths of a middle-eastern origin, and they now have a far greater understanding of different faiths and cultures, and I believe they are a lot more open because of it.
The success of this, however, can often be dependant on the parents.. how the ideas are addressed at home can have a much larger impact than anything else. But then again, if this was applied wouldn't any sort of intolerance diminish over the generations? Couldn't these things have a massive impact on our future societies?
Also, I don't think its creating choice; I think its creating exclusivity.
Peter Law 10+
I suppose for me it comes down to a mistrust of the state. If we have free choice in education then the odds are that the majority will make an ok choice. If we insist on everyone going through the same gate then we have to trust the gatekeeper. I don't. At the moment they can't even balance a budget, which is something we ordinary Joe's manage fine for the most part. They tell us lies & are naive enough to think that we believe them.
Sure some schools may be used to foster sectarianism, some elitism etc. the fact is though that human's are individuals & should be treated as such. That is our strength. Check out the countries that have lost that, would you really rather have old style communist china ?
Also consider that we all see things in the light of our own experience. Nothing is perfect, but it probably isn't as imperfect as we think it is.
:-)
Adam Leeson
And no, choices in education are often only for those who can afford them. Where is the equality in that? Wealth + Education = an unjust, perpetual cycle (as mentioned in a previous post).
And I think people can be individuals whilst experiencing the same things. I think our actual strength is our ability to be individuals in environments that a) sometimes make it difficult, and b) we all experience but see differently, and understand in different ways. Getting rid of these schools would not diminish any kind of personal individualism, it would just make this more diverse and equal for everyone.
And no, I don't think what we have now is that bad, and I'm happy with the person that my education has made. But society evolves, and I think this would be a change for the better.
Peter Law 10+
Why should we 'get rid' of schools because some people don't like them ? I don't like fox hunting, but was very much against the attempts to ban them. Why ? Mostly because if we let our authorities go down this route then they will eventually get around to banning motorbikes, & that would affect me.
We need to decide whether we want freedom or not. If we do then some people will do things we don't like. the pay-off is that we get to do what we like.
I have friends whose children were educated at church. He is a painter & decorator, she, a full time mum who worked for free in the school. (Not wealthy). Their kids blossomed & had no trouble integrating into a regular university. Another couple home-schooled their 5 kids, & they are working away in the regular world no problem. Do you really want to tell these folks that they cannot do this ?
On the wealth thing. Ideally folks should get as much education as they can handle academically. The pressure should be to lift folks up to the higher standard, not ban the higher standard so that everyone is the same. Wealthy folk can afford that bit better in everything, cars, houses, holidays, & yes education. Wealthy people are wealthy by & large, because they worked for it. Their incentive was to become wealthy, & in doing so no doubt created jobs for other people. That's capitalism, & it works. Let's strive to make more people wealthy & give greater freedom, not condemn our kids to the lowest common denominator.
:-)
Adam Leeson
And how are establishments that are totally exclusive to certain types of people allowing freedom?
And no, I don't want to tell them they cannot do this; I want to tell these schools that they have to open their doors to anyone, of any faith. And home-schooling can be great - I have some friends who have been home schooled, and they are beautiful people.
Yes, of course the focus should be to get everyone to the same high standards, but when the private institutions take all the best teachers because they can afford to pay them higher salaries, the 'lower end' will never get any where near the same level of education (and therefore continues the perpetual cycle). Schools that require students to pass an entry exam - I am not against them. If someone is gifted then they should be pushed. But there are not, and will never be, enough scholarships for anyone to be able to say that poorer people have equal opportunities.
And please don't ignore my previous point; wealthy people can afford better education, and can therefore get better qualifications, and therefore get higher paid jobs, and therefore can send their kids to get a better education, etc etc. This is absolutely CRUCIAL. It perpetuates the class system and inequality. Capitalism, surely, isn't based on keeping the lower classes where they are? All people must have equal opportunities to make whatever they want out of themselves. AND; people of all classes work hard.
Peter Law 10+
On the motorbike thing; it is merely an illustration. Once we accept the nanny state then ALL our freedoms come up for grabs. Fishing, Rock Climbing, Target Rifles, Knitting. You name it, there will be some who would like to ban it. Fox hunting is a walk in the park in comparison to our slaughter houses.
Anyone can set up an exclusive school; think about it...
I agree that it is a downside to capitalism that wealth can buy a better education. That's life. My wife & I had to scrimp & save to send our daughter to music school. She is now a professional musician, but it held us down financially for years. It was well worth it though, that's what parents are for.
Personally I am for capitalism, as historically it is the best system; that doesn't mean we shouldn't push for the necessary funds to be put into the regular schools though. Let's just be grateful that there are funds available, & not be too hard on the system that makes that possible.
Don't lose site of the fact that many of the world's most successful people were not exactly ace material at school. Life is to a large extent what we make it.
:-)
Adam Leeson
Also, surely the fox hunting ban was due to the efforts of the protesters, not the 'authorities'? I doubt the authorities would care too much one way or the other.
How do you mean anyone could set up an exclusive school? Sorry, I know nothing about this.
I think 'that's life' is a little too defeatist for my liking. Its also very easy to say 'that's life' when you're between lower-middle class & upper class.
I do think that completely getting rid of private schools is a) not really an option and b) probably not the best thing to do, but there should be efforts to give all classes equal opportunities.
And yes, in the UK I don't think anything but a capitalist system would work for quite some time; however, I have heard of socialist systems working in other countries.
On the point of private schools, I would like to see a system like that of the Student Loans - different income brackets having to pay different amounts, or something to that effect. I'm sure it would still be expensive, but for me that would be a step in the right direction. And more scholarships!
Funding and more funding for schools that need it. Better teachers, better ideas, much work has to be done in our education system; yes, we must be grateful for what we have, but it is far from satisfactory.
Yes, many of the world's most successful people were not great at school, but the majority of us need a good education to get to where we want to be.
And think about all of the potentially great people that don't get the chance to continue.
Adam Leeson
Just wanted to say that these riots throughout England show to me the necessity for a decent education for all, and how bad things happen when you neglect the lower classes..
Don't you think so?
The very large majority of these riots are mindless violence - what else can you blame (as the source) but a lack of education over the generations? These riots make it apparent that we have a lot of bored and poorly educated young people, whose parents lack discipline (who are often the ones who have little value for education because their own education was poor). If they had been trained to think, maybe things would be different.
In this sense, in the sense that good education is for the rich and the poor are neglected, we can blame our under-modified capitalist system.
Peter Law 10+
Yes it sure is a mess. I think it's a long shot to blame faith schools, or even regular schools. We are losing site of the wrong & right in society. We have degraded the family unit, lots of kids have never met their dad. There is no discipline in the home, school, or even the penal system. Last, but not least, there is no fear of God. We are told we are modified monkeys. If it wasn't for my faith I would be tempted to go out & get a new telly along with the rest.
You can educate people all you like, but if you take away dignity & ultimate hope. All that is left is to eat & drink because tomorrow we die !
:-)
Adam Leeson
I am talking about a long process;
people not getting a good education because they are poorer > because their education wasn't great their minds weren't challenged and pushed and improved > they don't really see the need for or importance of education because of this, and don't develop as many ideas about cause and effect, and therefore good, bad and discipline > they don't encourage their kids to learn because of this view they have > and the cycle continues in a downward spiral through the generations (albeit a slow process).
Kids are our future, schools are where they learn; how could this issue not be about a neglected lower class and their education? These riots are mindless violence - not strategical violent protest. And they do not have the insight to know that they are ultimately making things worse for themselves, for their countries economy and their own home towns.
And I think it is very sad that you yourself would not be strong enough, nor would have developed your own sense of right or wrong enough, to not go out and find a telly without having your concept of 'God' lodged in your mind. Beliefs, empathy and principles are all learnt things - I have learnt to hold many beliefs, and I can revise them when necessary. And that's another thing I think is of great important; being dynamic.
James Turner 10+
James Turner 10+
James Turner 10+
Adam Leeson
And I believe it is our duty to allow the children in our own countries to experience all walks of life, yes. Children are the future, of course, so how we segregate them is important for all of us, and the future of each country's society.
James Turner 10+
Adam Leeson
Ian Gordon
Adam Leeson
Challenging cultural norms is one of the many great things that a multi-cultural society brings, and I think its important for a forward thinking society, but the country's own culture and traditions must be respected.
And the reason I have stayed away from the 'indoctrination is not right' argument (in which I agree with you very strongly) is, with all the 'taboos' of speaking out against religion at the moment, I don't think its an argument that would stand up in this current climate.
Ian Gordon
Don't let anything be taboo. It is the hiding of opinions that lets them fester, or fails to let them shine. Speak your truth. You're in good company here :)
Adam Leeson
And its not a taboo for me, but I'm just trying to approach the argument without bringing the subject of faith into it too much, as that would give religious groups something more to combat! Most of western society knows indoctrination is wrong, but has done and will probably continue to do nothing about it for a long time.
I feel the segregation argument has less soft spots and is harder to ignore.
James Turner 10+
Adam Leeson
James Turner 10+
Adam Leeson
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Adam Leeson
I completely agree about what happens when we grow up. The world isn't like that, why should schools be? And also I think its worth mentioning that, as we grow up, we lose our flexibility and, to some extent, our open minds. Get people used to other/new/different ideas and cultures while they're naturally more open to them.
But I don't understand why it might sound negative? If you don't mind, I would really like to hear what you feel. Is it that we should all be open to everybody any way?
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
"Obviously I have quite a negative outlook towards single faith schools. "
But no worries,it's just a misunderstanding between us.Negative or positive,I still agree with you,Adam.
I pretty much don't mind if my kids are to be schooled with people from everywhere around the world.I don't want my kids( if I would have them one day) to be stuck with one culture only.They need to know that this world is much more colourful that what meets the eye.
James Turner 10+
I guess I have a more mystical view of life than others and maybe it seems confusing and contradictory but I have chosen to follow the Celtic church and the ideas that God creates in every person a core of goodness that is covered by some of the choices we make.
I can look for that goodness in all people and welcome them as they are and allow them to grow spiritually towards their fulfillment at the proper time. I cannot and will not force it. I will share my ideas and hope they spark ideas in others.
Schools and people will always be in separate communities because of the very premise of my argument that if you look like me you are acceptable and if you are different you are not.
I teach school and have many many students of different ideas and thoughts and some accept me as I am at the beginning and some do not and that is OK. We are not all ment to be the same or we would be clones and that would be terribly boring. We could not have the conversation we are having at this time. Viva la difference
Adam Leeson
2) We experience instincts everyday, they keep us alive, they tell us when to eat. We are animals that have evolved to a different state of sentience. We must not aim to be rid of our instincts; they make us who we are. With a 'survival instinct' we as a species would not be around for long. The survival instinct does not prevent us from being open minded, tolerant, caring beings.
I agree, we will always have certain pockets of communities that will not want to mix with the outside world, and we will always have people who don't get along. BUT these separate communities can still be part of and understand society as a whole. I am not suggesting these things as something to rid our societies of religious groups and cultural communities; I believe that a multicultural society is a healthy one. I am not saying 'get rid of faith schools' to get rid of faith, or to get rid of the religious communities. I am saying get rid of faith schools so that my children are in an environment where they can mix with kids of all faiths, all backgrounds, all cultures. I want that for all children in all schools!
James Turner 10+
Adam Leeson
But.. (and this is a BIG but..) if someone moves country, they must accept the culture of the country. Your examples are great; people from different cultures mixing and enjoying the new and different ideas and backgrounds. This is something I love about life, and I believe my own life would feel very dull without it.
However, what I am saying is that when people move to other countries and expect live in exactly the same way as they did in their own countries, with people who have also moved from their own countries and share their background, you do not get integration. Everyone must remember their roots and be happy to have them, but they must also except and integrate with other cultures if choose to change their country of residence.
For example, if I went to a country where society said you should never talk to a married woman without her husband's permission, or the law stated that you could not be alone with a woman after 10pm without being married, I would have to respect that.
If you move to a country where the society says it is totally unacceptable to intimidate someone, or force them to do things against their will, or a law that states that you cannot cover your face whilst in a shop (for security reasons) then you must respect the laws of that country, and at least try to accept and be open to its social norms.
If you don't want to accept these things, you shouldn't live there. Its about having respect for others and adapting.
Matthieu Miossec 100+
Adam Leeson
James Turner 10+
Adam Leeson
James Turner 10+
Adam Leeson
If people went to the same school and were class mates cultural suspicions would move towards eradication.
I fear you may be a person whose concern is keeping the future of his faith intact; this being why you have come up with your rather irrational argument, steeped in poor assumptions (this possibly being why you are able to believe it).
1) Your guess is extremely wrong. I have no suspicion, unless I were experiencing paranoid episode. But if I did, it would be because of a lack of exposure.
2) Separating cultures is not the way to bring them together. When kept apart they are far less likely to start to understand each other.
3) How can one person connect to the goodness in another person if they have no contact with them?
4) On these points, your argument for faith schools has no basis whatsoever.
5) 'Control the instinct to be free' is something that does not compute, maybe you could go into that a bit for me?
6) How can these schools and people you speak of add to our society when they learn to stay separated from it in small, secular communities?
7) Your idea of 'primitive instincts' is drowning in your earlier assumptions and opinions about 'suspicion', which have no basis and, therefore, render the end of your post invalid and meaningless.
One thing you seem to be saying is that having faith schools around is good because then we have to try to think differently about people that are different to us. The sad truth is, people don't have this 'discipline' you speak of. Humans, naturally, are creatures of habit and familiarity, not discipline. In this case, we have to change the environment they live in if we want to change anything. Society won't change itself, I'm afraid, and this idea of 'a change in worldview' is starting to sound a bit fascist.
Stereotypes and 'suspicions' are produced through lack of understanding and empathy. End of.
Adam Leeson
Nicholas Lukowiak 30+
Also private institutes allow a more "prestigious" degree to be given to those who graduate from them. This is more of a problem then the fact they are religiously foundational. Kids getting straight A's in my public town go to the same schools as kids getting B's in a private school, not far, they are essentially paying to get ahead.
An answer to this would be a required course in the curriculum. "World Religion" and perhaps even "Critical Critique".
What divides people are details, need to illuminate the details to show how alike everyone really is to one another.
Adam Leeson
Personally I am against private institutes as well, but that's another thing. Equal education for all, that's my opinion, in the early years at the very least (before university). Those with money paying for better education.. those students getting the best grades and therefore the choice of the best universities afterwards.. they get higher paid jobs because of it.. they can afford better education for their children... URGH, it angers me.
And yes, I agree. At my school it was called 'Religious Education', which was a class wherein we were taught a bit about all religions.
And I couldn't agree more with your final statement :) We cannot understand someone if we know nothing about them and their culture.
sterling gilbertine
Ian Gordon
James Turner 10+