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Isn't it time to eliminate grades in education?
Give a student an F, she's learned nothing. Giver her an A, and what has she learned? Still nothing. Grades are subjective crutches, used by teachers because they either do not know any better, or because they are forced to give them by an archaic system.
Grades should be replaced by meaningful narrative feedback, which helps students understand what learning outcomes have or have not been mastered. Feedback also encourages learning, while grades only stifle it.
It's time for grades to be eliminated.
Closing Statement from Mark Barnes
This conversation was a remarkable experience -- one that gave me plenty to think about and to write about in my upcoming book (ROLE Reversal, ASCD 2012). I believe that many people here seem at least open to the idea of moving beyond the subjective, punitive grading system that we use today. Some still believe that grades are the only way to evaluate learning. It appears from the discussion that, in most cases, this is because they haven't been exposed to formative assessment and self-evaluation over summative testing and grades. Grades are a measuring tool, and not a very good one. The problem is not just grading but the idea that measurements are necessary in the first place. Learning should never be measured. Rather, it should be shared, discussed and evaluated openly; these discussions should be accompanied by objective feedback that guides students to other possibilities and to reflection and self-evaluation.
Upon consideration of all comments here, I remain steadfast in my belief that education needs ongoing narrative feedback. Any other system is arrogant and a mistake.
Thanks to all who participated.
Y-Q Tham
Perhaps I am from a different context (halfway around the world, oh dear) and I may not fully understand this intrinsically. However, being a student in the Cambridge GCE system (I am taking my Advanced Levels exams this year) for 12 years now, I have asked myself the same question for ages. Grades are depressing to every student. What a to-do, when one student who studies so much ends up failing the exams. However, I believe grades is actually an indicator to how much the student has retained that particular information. After all, ask any student (especially those who are studying in furiously competitive systems, such as Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore) and they will say that grades shows how much they understand the topic and how much more they need to know. That being said, I suppose the actual learning only comes in later in life, and that grades are sowing the seeds for life skills.
Take a hypothetical student for example, student X. X studies for a particular exam, and he studies it with extreme passion because he really wants an A. However, after going through the exam and obtaining his results, he failed it. From here on out, student X has 2 choices: 1. Mope about his results, thinking that he has failed completely. 2. Ask himself why he has failed, what has he done right/wrong and how can he change himself to be better.
I suppose grades are important in testing us how a student can handle failure, whether a student can evaluate on his life, and whether a student can pick himself up. Meaningful narrative feedback is good, however some students may not accept feedback as well as the cold, heartless letter on the examination script. Having not lived adulthood yet, I can only speculate, but I guess what we learn from our failures in schools (by the means of grades) will be etched into us a drive to improve and a spirit of perseverance and a never-say-die spirit, picking ourselves up from setbacks and carrying on in life.
Mark Barnes 10+
Also, my guess is that students in these competitive environments have been conditioned that grades are all that is important to learning. If taught differently, their attitudes would change and, my guess is, they would actually learn more.
Thanks for y our comment.
Libbey Koppinger
Necla Yildirim
On the other hand though, when you look from the students angle; how will they ever be convinced that the teachers are being objective and not just picking on them? Maybe it would make more sense to combine both...
jeffrey friesen 20+
I fear that it won't be long until all instruction in the US devolves to the point where minimum wage drones repeating rote instructions to standardized exercises and tests replace teaching and learning.
On that happy thought, have a great day.
jeffrey friesen 20+
We have one front end staff who is wonderful with patients and had a spotty attendance record and the reason why was that she was taking care of a mother in end stage cancer. We gave her a shot and it worked out well. After 4 months her mother passed on and she took about another 2 months to get everything taken care of (if you have ever settled an estate you know the paperwork is immense). The bonus is that she feels a great deal of personal loyalty to our organization and she has resisted several attempts to recruit her from our clinic by other doctors....
Elaine L.
Thank you for this talk
biped since1991
It’s nice to see your engagement with educational reform.
Education today has become a global manifestation; this would suggest that education is a strong societal determinant. I would push this further and suggest the reform cannot pertain to a given space, nor can it be applied to a select group of people. This might be evident, but what actually is the reform, is it a mere reaction to something that alludes to our pre-existing notions on education.
A "changed" human being compels; the more one changes, the more compelling reform becomes. Fortunately our society is in continual need for change. Advocating pre-existing educational systems often lead to social, cultural, and educational stagnation.
Reforming education essentially reforms society, people, and ultimately the very thought that incites change.
I recently graduated from a system unlike any elitist based systems. You might be interested to see how this and other educational systems have attempted to rethink education.
Centre for Learning, (shortened to C.F.L) is a school based in Bangalore, India
http://cfl.in/
It would be interesting if you begin to compile a list of different educational systems that have relooked education and found ways to implement reform. Hopefully this helps convey to the masses that reformation is not just possible but also an emerging reality.
Change comes easier when collaborated collectively with those who hold similar values and practices.
Manush C J
Triyambak Tripathy
Todd Smith
Grades are already gone.
At no time in the last decade of teaching high school and middle school has a single administrator ever once asked me about the grades students receive in my classes. For example, “Mr. Smith, I have a question for you. Why is it that your eighth graders almost always pass your courses with a “B” grade or higher?” Never. Why?
I believe that grades at the secondary level have already been functionally eliminated and emptied of their meaning by the primacy of standardized testing. I believe that we should eliminate grading systems because they are useless, wasteful, and redundant in the negative sense. At this point we have two grading systems: meaningless grades and standardized test scores.
I believe that standardized testing in education has the same effect on culture and learning that anesthesia has prior to invasive dental work: “I don’t care what happens next, I just don’t want to feel anything until it’s over or be reminded that it ever happened.”
Standardized tests are the “grades” of the present and they represent a political move that has nothing to do with students, education, or culture. Standardized tests are seen by elected officials as a way to deliver votes. So long as they do, our public education system will, without fail, remain solidly in the camp of testing all students at every possible opportunity.So long as the results can be manipulated by re-engineering tests and answers, those tests will remain in the hands of educrats driven by dollars.
Students are not the ones being graded at all, and it's time students received valuable reflections that help them see who they are and what they are becoming.
Mark Barnes 10+
Thanks for chiming in on this.
Michael M 30+
Denny Morales
Who cares what the principals, or school system says what you can teach, it's time to step outside of that and teach from your heart. -To teachers all over. :)
Liz Shackleford
Yes, the educational system needs to change. I have no arguments with that. In terms of staying on topic, taking away grades is an uncomfortable thought but not one that I really have a major problem with- I already try to give feedback wherever possible in class, and I *really* miss not being able to put comments on reports (I work in a school that gives only grades on reports until the last year of school). However, given the country in which I work, until the system changes on a much bigger scale than me, to stop putting any grades or marks on my students' work entirely would be to shortchange them and get myself fired- my students would not get into their university courses.
Mark Barnes 10+
My colleagues are fascinated by this. I think it's only a matter of time before it catches on.
Don't be afraid of trying new things. They can't fire you for trying to be better.
Good luck.
Liz Shackleford
I have been challenged recently, however, about joining the kinds of committees that do have a stake in how the system works- it is one way of getting a say in these kinds of things, even if on a much smaller level than this topic of conversation.
I'm trying to think of how the idea of self-grading could be applicable in younger grades than the last two, however, and whether it would set up more confusion in those last two years of school to not be used to receiving graded work and to suddenly hit it at a time when the work load is also increasing exponentially. One concern I think I would have is that my students (all boys) are not always good at judging their own ability. I can think of two students in particular now in an advanced class; who consistently judge their own abilities and achievements far lower than reality. Do students get better at this when receiving more detailed feedback?
Leila Oicles
However there are some other issues that come up here. A teacher is not without bias, and what if he/she truly connects with one particular student through common interest or sees a bit of himself in her, or sees a certain potential that he misses in another student? What if this student has potential in a way that the teacher doesn't get nor knows how to nuture. How would he evaluate him or her? And further how could this teacher truly cultivate his student?
Schools systems, particularly the public school system evaluates on some neccesities that are universal such as math. The end result doesn't vary to each individual. 5x5=25 no matter who you are. They put together a curriculm where we do need these systems in place to evaulate progress in order to know what the student needs to work on and achieve. So how else do we do this with a public school system that can have a teacher student ratio as high as 25:1? How will the administration, dept of education be able to use these evaluations to better their curriculm or point out which schools and in which areas of academics need more focus? It is impossible to read each students evaluation personally, which is why there is a universal grading system and standardized tests to begin with.
We have teachers that have been caught helping students cheat on tests, or changing answers for them in order for them to pass so they can keep quota so to speak. I wouldn't want these teachers cultivating or evaluating any child, for what are they truly teaching? I believe there must be a reform, yes, but there is a lot to take into account than to just merely take away grades. perhaps we should change the how.
Mark Barnes 10+
As I've stated previously, I believe that narrative feedback removes bias. With practice, the teacher learns to give objective, specific, detailed comments about a student's work.
I think it's the job of teachers to nurture a thirst for learning. Anyone can do this, in a ROLE.
Thanks for chiming in.
Chris Lieverdink
Are their great aspects to ROLE? Of that I am certain, for SOME students. Some students require a guage, and yes some students require motivation and competition. A truly dynamic system would incorporate all of these together.
I have been exposed to a schooling system wherein students in a standard classroom were exposed to extremely learning challenged students of the same age in their classroom. (The challenged person worked with an aide) It had a dual reward. The extremely challenged person did far better for themselves in a stimulated environment, and the "nominal range" students learned to find empathy and a protective nature towards the challenged student. This was a classroom in which standard grading was utilized, however some important life skills were also taught in the process.
I think we need to get away from such polarized ideals and incorporate the systems together. Each has their benefit. Project oriented learning, where the "measures" (testing and grades) are used not in a punitive manner but solely as a directional guide. Perhaps de-structure the curriculum somewhat to allow for students to explore the many and varied opportunities for learning while still measuring to give that individual, parents and teachers the ability to guide that individual to an eventual positive outcome for them.
When I was a student Math was my enemy. I hated it and did not grasp the concepts until one very smart teacher made us do a project (of our choosing) in which some of these complex formulae would be used. I built a bridge. Today, as an adult, I manage bridge building projects.
jeffrey friesen 20+
Let me ask you this. Does 1 + 1 = 2 all the time?
Here's a proof that 1 + 1 = 1:Let a = 1 and b = 1.Therefore a = b, by substitution.
If two numbers are equal, then their squares are equal, too: a^2 = b^2.
Now subtract b^2 from both sides (if an equation is true, then if you subtract the same thing from both sides, the result is also a true equation) so - a^2 - b^2 = 0.
Now the lefthand side of the equation is a form known as "the difference of two squares" and can be factored into (a-b)*(a+b). If you don't believe me, then try multiplying it out carefully, and you will see that it's correct. So: (a-b)*(a+b) = 0.
Now if you have an equation, you can divide both sides by the same thing, right? Let's divide by (a-b), so we get: (a-b)*(a+b) / (a-b) = 0/(a-b).
On the lefthand side, the (a-b)/(a-b) simplifies to 1, right? and the righthand side simplifies to 0, right? So we get: 1*(a+b) = 0,
and since 1* anything = that same anything, then we have: (a+b) = 0.
But a = 1 and b = 1, so: 1 + 1 = 0, or 2 = 0.
Now let's divide both sides by 2, and we get: 1 = 0.
Then we add 1 to both sides, and we get: 1 + 1 = 1.
But of course, the above formula is flawed. I'll let you figure it out.
My point here is that teachers don't teach subject material, they teach people. And while they should be held accountable (whatever that means, although these days accountability seems to mean bust the union and fire their flabby butts so we can replace them with no experience, 5 week trained, unuinionized, resume padding TFA grads - but that's just my opinion), they should also be treated like professionals. If we treated doctors like we treated teachers ... oh wait, insurance companies DO treat doctors that way....
An Ge
I am afraid if this "archaic system" is removed, there must be soon to be recreated some sort of grading system in order to sort out people anyway.
I am gonna mention the society I am living in. the ministry of education has tried to gradually put diversified yardstick into the old grading system so students could be encouraged to do what their innate talent or interests are headed for not only what the society wants or expects them to do. Therefore teachers give grads with narrative feedback now. For me neither are objective though, it looks making effort to encourage students to learn themselves. But, However, If you look at deep inside, you will see it’s only another grading system, which is still competitive, I would say, rather harder than before. Students and their parents try to draw attention of teachers in order to get praises in comment paper. Narrative feedback is said not to go objective here. We cannot help admitting that teachers are human so they have preference in students. Maybe we need tricky grading system to correct teachers not students.
Mark Barnes 10+
Year after year, I watch us parade students on Honor and Merit rolls in front of the remaining students, praising them, because they supposedly outperformed their peers. All this does is create a system of competition and hatred. Soon it's the "stupid" kids versus the "smart" kids. This doesn't encourage learning, and it creates a contentious school environment.
The Results Only Learning Environment does away with all of this.
Thanks for adding to the discussion.
jeffrey friesen 20+
I would go so far to agree that ROLE "can" do away with all of that. No system is perfect - look at american "democracy."
As my daddy always said, everything works great until people get involved. That was a man who loved tools, possible because they never talked back or had another opinion or interpretation of how to do a job. On the other hand Dad wasn't exactly an easy guy to work next to...
An Ge
I wish "the result only learning environment does away with all of this"
This is way difficult job and would take righteous people and ages and money and social vibe.
Rooting for you
@ Jeffrey, anyway,Everything works great until people get involved truly!
Vera Nova
We would be glad to promote your concept. We are a non-profit 501c3 organization, Nova Town, www.novatownsite.org, searching for the most inspirational workable ideas to design a fully functional futuristic community-town.
The idea of getting students involved in actual projects of their choice, from the start to the very completion, is a superb idea for teaching, sharing, learning and even inventing (in my modest opinion).
If young students learn how to collaborate with others while discovering and developing their best abilities, and then see the results of such collaboration as a completed working project, this should benefit not only students and teachers, but in many ways - our whole society.
Rachel Potter
Comment deleted
Tony Kuphaldt 10+
For some positive and negative feedback on the Evergreen experience, check out this page:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-evergreen-state-college-olympia
Mark Barnes 10+
Thanks for chiming in on this.
Vera Nova
That is why in schools, training is commonly mistaken for real productive learning. It is scary.
Most of the students can, somehow, adjust, learning mainly one thing - do as others do, remember what you are told, whether you like or not.
There is no space for a unique growing talent in schools. I do not mean on a level of a quick businessman, such as B. Gates, but I mean on a level of an extraordinary intuition, whether it is artistic, or scientific, or even in the field that is still unknown to us. There is no way that a student with a such talent can be fairly "appraised" in schools.
Our human world that is controlled by mass production, "pop-culture",
and mass psychosis is desperate to let new intellect and talent grow. They are to revise our standards. I trust that real Teaching is all about Learning along with students!
Brijesh A Shah
Now feedback. As it depends on the person's background where he/she might have exceptional natural skills compare to other field, feedback will help to gauge performance and identifying area of improvements. Feedback will differ from candidate to candidate as everybody has some uniqueness. ''Grade gauges you and Feedback makes you"
I expect to have grade and feedback system fair enough to realize this.
Mark Barnes 10+
Thanks for chiming in on this.
jeffrey friesen 20+
Perhaps the answer to the first part is that you have come to expect it as normal (although normal is only an agreed upon standard - slavery used to be normal - and bathing was not - thankfully things change), and perhaps the answer to the second part is that the market benefits when their workers are desperate or willing to betray each other for short term gain.
I'm not suggesting these are the answers but the exploration of them might be illustrative.
Dave Fraser
And, yes, you are correct. Maybe it is time to "can" the grading system.
But consider "meaningful narrative feedback" in the high school class system.
Most teachers have approximately 120 students a semester. For the narratives to be valid
the teacher would have to give 15 days (based on an 8 hour day) four times a semester
for evaluation. This is based on 1 hour per student. By any standard that is a lot of time.
Just trying to give the discussion another perspective. Is the teacher's job to help the students learn or spend 60 days evaluating?
Mark Barnes 10+
Students in a ROLE are also coached early and often on how to learn without too much help from the teacher. In a ROLE, the teacher becomes much more of a facilitator and coach, getting out of the students' way and allowing them to discover things.
This style of teaching creates much more time for feedback, because the teacher is not creating lessons and materials as much as traditional teachers do.
I almost never make copies (we learn and present on the Internet), and I collect roughly 90 percent less activities than my colleagues do. Also, there is a lot of verbal feedback. I circulate constantly and "look in" on individuals and small groups to evaluate their learning. I may make a designation on a roster that will lead to a brief comment on our web-based grade program later. All feedback isn't super long. We see the word narrative, and sometimes we automatically assume lengthy.
Trust me, leaving ongoing narrative feedback takes an immense amount of time. I work a lot harder now than I ever did when I was a traditional teacher, using homework, handouts and quizzes.
My students learn more than ever, though.
Thanks for weighing in here. I always appreciate the opinion of a veteran teacher.
Libbey Koppinger
I believe that parents and communities must act to move forward. Teachers are left to their own devices and thank goodness there are people like Mark who believe so much in learning and in children's abilities to become lifelong learners - that they take on opposition for the betterment of education.
Let's keep something in mind: Teachers need and deserve our partnership, respect and support. Not everyone can, or should teach. It's a gift, a vocation and in many cases a commitment to doing a "job" for which there isn't even adequate pay.
Mark is doing something that he has found success with. Hearing about the results his students achieve should make us take notice in a manner that is positive. I definitely see where what he is doing can be so good for kids, although I certainly recognize it's not an answer to the overall problem. But it wasn't mean to be. Looking back at my first response, I missed that.
We can all cite reasons for why something will fail. That's been explored. I challenge you all to take the viewpoint that it will succeed. Think about it, talk about it. Be open to the change you want to see - it might mean letting go of those carefully guarded perceptions, but TED is a forum for learning and sharing - I hope everyone sees that in order for that to happen, we ourselves must be willing to consider change as progress. I learned from a great teacher (more years ago than I care to admit!) that the best debate is one in which each team can argue each side of the subject on the table. If nothing else, it illustrates our level comprehension more completely.
If during the course of such debate, you discover something you hadn't known before, "ta-da" learning has been achieved. Which IS the goal.
Mark Barnes 10+
Change is difficult, especially major reform of something that has been the same for so long.
I believe ongoing discussions, like this one, will make people take notice, and other teachers will begin using results-only learning worldwide.
Thanks again for you kind words and support.
Joe Delsen 20+
Narrative feedback is great as it translates into more meaningful care for each student. I also like Salman Khan's idea that we all can learn basic math, science, grammar and values education, with the help of our technologies.
Kaylie Cottrell
Libbey Koppinger
Which leads me to this:
Mark seeks to correct a system of evaluation that seems to cause our students more harm than good.
What will it take to prepare TEACHERS to effectively change the way in which they evaluate and in effect teach?
Sean Lim
Tony Kuphaldt 10+
I cannot speak to Mark's ROLE system in particular since I'm just learning about it myself, but I have used and continue to use practical project work as learning activities for my own college students, and have noticed some definite limitations. Among them:
* It is difficult for the instructor to see the process by which students achieve their results, which is every bit (if not more) important than the results themselves. A student who achieves an end-result with proficiency every step of the way has truly mastered an objective, whereas a student who flounders in achieving the same end-result has a long way to go before mastery. It's hard to tell this difference, though, without watching them every step of the way which is quite impractical given large classes and diverse projects.
* Uneven individual contributions in group-based projects, leading to (sometimes) gross asymmetries in student learning, even on the same project.
* A strong tendency for students to choose comfort over challenge: opting to stay with the familiar instead of challenging themselves to do new things in new ways. This is especially evident in the types of projects students choose for themselves, if given the choice.
As another example, high school seniors in my state are required to create "Culminating Projects" in order to graduate. These projects are supposed to demonstrate a culmination of learning over their whole high school tenure. Some of these projects are stunning to behold, while others border on the ridiculous (a girl's fashion makeover on a friend comes to mind as a particularly egregious example). Culminating projects are a promising concept, but the practical realization leaves a lot to be desired.
I'm really hoping Mark has some fresh insight on how to make projects really work for learning and assessment, because what I've seen in student project work is wildly inconsistent.
Michael M 30+
Tony Kuphaldt 10+
The dominant teaching technique I use is what is sometimes called an "Inverted Classroom," where students encounter new material on their own outside of formal class time, freeing up our face-to-face class time for higher-order thinking skills. It is "inverted" in the sense that traditional lecture is replaced by student research outside of class, and traditional homework is replaced by realistic problem-solving activities in the classroom. To reference Bloom's Taxonomy, the students are held personally responsible for the first two levels (acquiring knowledge and comprehension) while I coach them to achieve the others (application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation).
As I like to tell my students, I am an extremely expensive video-player: if I were to spend most of the class time lecturing and showing PowerPoint slideshows to them -- presenting new information like an actor following a script -- we would all be wasting our time. The best use of my expertise is to closely observe how students approach complex concepts and problems, diagnosing misconceptions, and coaching students to become better thinkers, and I cannot do that from behind a lectern.
The goal of the inverted classroom is not only to foster higher-order thinking, but it is also to encourage (and require!) autonomous learning. My students have chosen a highly technical career where continual, self-directed learning is essential for success. Anyone requiring the tutelage of an expert to learn new things -- or merely believing they do -- will stagnate in their career. Of course, autonomous learning is something we all benefit from in every aspect of life, not just in our careers, but that's a different soapbox!
Here are some videos of our in-class interactions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bri3g5G7FnE&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iamHI48ldBY&feature=relmfu
jeffrey friesen 20+
Tony Kuphaldt 10+
* Vastly increased student interest and engagement. Rarely if ever do you have students not engaged when they know what they're doing is "real."
* Much broader learning, and better connection of concepts in the learning. When students must overcome the myriad of challenges faced with practical projects, they learn much more than what you might expect. Time- and resource-management is just one example. Interpersonal relations, conflict resolution, making practical compromises, and the like are some of the "soft skill" areas that get addressed quite readily in project work where the project involves multiple parties.
I hope my earlier post did not sound too negative. There is a lot going for long-term projects in learning. My primary concern is how readily an instructor is able to *assess* student mastery from their project work. We must keep in mind that learning and assessment are two different activities, and that what might work well for one may not work well for the other. A student might very well have learned quite a lot of things by doing a project, but whether or not that student has *mastered* each of those things is another matter entirely, and it is uncertain to me whether that mastery can be truly measured by the project itself.
Michael M 30+
A great insight about mastery here. Are there other teaching methods you use in particular besides the "project"?
Tony Kuphaldt 10+
Much of what you say makes sense to me as a college educator, but I have lots of questions . . .
You seem to be proposing the ROLE system for primary/secondary education. Do you see it applicable to adult education as well? My guess is "yes" but I would like to hear your direct perspective.
I don't see a necessary tension between a performance score (grade) and narrative feedback. An aggregate letter or percentage grade by itself is practically meaningless ("What does a 'B' really represent at the end of a year?"), but scores representing performance on specific cognitive abilities are highly useful for both teacher and student, and may very well be part of a narrative feedback. Are you really saying that grades and scores of all kinds are to be abolished?
Is it possible for a student to fail a ROLE class? If so, what are the conditions for failure?
Do you really mean to say a student learns nothing by failing? In my experience, the letter "F" can be a powerful teaching tool. If you have tried your best to encourage a student to change their academically destructive behaviors to no avail, a failing grade can be a wake-up call. A significant number of the students I've failed have come back with markedly improved attitudes toward their own learning, most of them thanking me because it forced them to grow up.
In my own teaching, I dearly wish I could dispense with aggregate course grades, and instead make all assessments "mastery" based (students repeat with randomized challenges until they demonstrate mastery of each outcome). I cannot do so given the state's requirement of letter grades for courses. Perhaps you and I think along similar lines here.
Mark Barnes 10+
I do see the ROLE applicable to adult education, especially when you consider that it's a complete system of education, not just a grade system. We need to have students collaborate and work on lengthy projects and self-evaluate at all levels.
I would like to see all scores and grades eliminated at all education levels. There just isn't any use for them. I don't want to judge my students cognitive abilities with a letter (an act that I think is highly presumptuous).
The only way to fail a ROLE class is to evaluate yourself and "give" yourself a failing grade. As my school requires letter grades, I have my students evaluate their performance and ask them to assign a grade. Some students do, occasionally, give themselves F's.
I don't think an F is ever helpful. Students do fail at tasks, for one reason or another. This is where narrative feedback plays such an important role. The teacher explains what part of the task (learning outcome) was missed or done wrong. The student returns to the task and changes it. This is how we learn from mistakes. So, the only student who truly fails a ROLE class, in my opinion, is the one who makes mistakes but doesn't change them.
It's refreshing to hear that someone in adult education sees the value in results-only learning.
Thanks for chiming in.
Tony Kuphaldt 10+
Regarding "F" grades, the times when I've seen an "F" result in learning are when students were counseled repeatedly to alter their academically self-destructive behavior (failing to complete tasks on time, failing to study, substance abuse) and they did not. So it seems we agree: after you've done all you can to help a student make the best choices, the only way they are going to learn (if at all) is the hard way. It's when those students return with an improved attitude toward learning that you know the "F" actually resulted in learning.
Mark Barnes 10+
If my "check engine" light were on, I'd want a good mechanic to fix the problem. Hopefully, that would be one who had learned through trial and error how to diagnose and rectify the issue -- not one who may or may not have done well on the test.
In my experience, students never benefit from F's. Students who get F's continue to get them, because they are simply taught that they are failures. Just as students who get A's often just know how to "play the game" and never really challenge themselves.
Results-only learning fixes all of these problems.
Tony Kuphaldt 10+
You are absolutely right that many tests are poorly written and do not actually measure what they intend to. If that is the basis for comparison, then practically any alternative is preferable. What I'm having trouble seeing is how any long-term project -- no matter how well-managed -- gives the instructor a comparably detailed view of each student's problem-solving strategies and weaknesses as a well-written exam or performance demonstration.
I say this as an educator who has his students do a lot of practical projects, both individual and group. Despite the increased levels of engagement I see with project work, I've had trouble getting consistent results. Just last week, for example, I had a team come back from an off-campus project task with wildly varying accounts of how well each one of them (as well as the team as a whole) did diagnosing a technical problem. Those students who demonstrate weak diagnostic ability when I observe them thought their own performance on this task was great. It was only because there happened to be one "strong" troubleshooter on the team who recounted for me how disjointed the other students' efforts were that I could verify things were not so. I have even had students cheat on project work, getting classmates to do portions of it for them while they claim the results as their own. These are reasons why I've given up trying to assess project work, using projects strictly as learning activities.
I think I might gain a better perspective on ROLE if I could see one of the long-term projects in detail, especially how you are able to assess the capabilities of the individual student apart from the group. Your website says to "Watch for future posts with examples of meaningful year-long projects" which I hope means you'll be posting some soon. I'd really like to see what some of the "checkpoint goals" are and how they are measureable, especially when much of the student work happens apart from your supervision!
Mark Barnes 10+
One important point I'd like to address is cheating. I can honestly say that while my colleagues (traditional teachers) struggle with cheating all of the time, I never encounter a single instance of it in my ROLE. It's not because I'm such a great teacher and they're not; quite the contrary. It's about the system. My students truly love their projects, because they have choice, and they feel like they are pursuing learning for learning's sake, not for a grade.
Although I'm uncertain it will help you much, I'll provide you with an example of one part of my Reading All Year Project. The link below is to the first grading period portion of this project. (Please note that this is still being "tweaked" for the upcoming year, so more choices will be added by me and by my students later.)
Let me know what you think and what other questions you have, and thanks so much for adding to this fascinating debate.
ROLE project guidelines: http://www.barnesclass.com/RAY-Project-Part-1
Tony Kuphaldt 10+
Thank you for this example. I'm going to review the details and then get back to you with questions as they arise.
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Michael M 30+
I agree whole heartedly. Thank you for your comment. As Mark has stated it is the system, not just grading that needs fixing. The other things unfortunately cannot be fixed so easily.
jeffrey friesen 20+
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jeffrey friesen 20+
Absolutely not. The decisions of what to teach and how much to spend should only be put in the hands of corporations. Only they have the business acumen. Only they have successfully navigated life and never made mistakes. Only they have crashed a world economy.... oh, wait.
Steven Lowell
By the way, the underlying cause as to why the economy crashed and stayed that way, started 30 years ago.
So, lets prepare students by not expecting anything from them, and that will not happen again?
Yeah right, because what happened in the 80's came from all of the former hippie free loving/dont judge me youth of the 60's who became some of the greediest capitalists ever.
But yeah...we should repeat this cycle of expecting no more than the ability to talk, as a way to define who is educated. By the way, no matter what the idea is...at some point...we all end up grading or judging someone in some form because human nature cannot exist without acknowledgement.
The US economy crashing is a whole different topic of its own.
Ratul Banthia
What I feel is what should go is not the grades, but the overemphasis on them and using them as the only basis for judging performance. I would totally support a regime where grades are given along with detailed narratives of strengths & weaknesses and feedback as to how the student can build upon them.
We need to end the mindset of grades being the single most important factor of performance evaluation and instead focus & reward those students who display the most improvement in developing themselves!
jeffrey friesen 20+
Libbey Koppinger
Problems in schools aren't born there.
Issues which adversely affect a child's education begin outside of the school and reflect the problems within the community. Education needs more than just reform, or a change in how we judge performance. Whether we speak of a student's performance or a teacher's - we must look outside that institutional "box" to parents & communities. When any community has a multiple schools which are both private and public, lack of appropriate funding opportunities sets the stage for elitist and often non-diverse systems, which may follow the same state guidelines for education, but whose populace is unbalanced in terms of background - both ethnic and financial.
Where we live, there are vast differences in the climate in which a child can receive an education. And while it shouldn't be the case, these differences affect our children while in school - and out of school, living in the community. That affect transfers itself to the parents - whether they are taking on the stress of trying to afford a "better" private school or to live in a better school district, or dealing with problems in lower income communities from drugs & gangs - the changes we need to see in our schools are wholly reflective of the problems the community at large faces. Until federal and state funding aids ALL schools, to standardize resources while maintaining the highest level of educational integrity - the differences in income status will continue to build walls and create class segregated schools.
Creating an environment that is super-charged educationally and child centered means removing ALL barriers that threaten to compromise a child's ability to engage themselves in learning. That starts with social change, with parents and government
Michael M 30+
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/05/atlanta.public.schools.scandal/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1
jeffrey friesen 20+
I taught for a while at an elite private academy. Most of the students were delivered by limousine or town car in the morning and the chauffeurs would pick them up at night. They were indifferent students at best and full of entitlement. Little Bushies. Most of them haven't done anything with their lives except join daddies firm. Parasites by and large.
I also taught in the inner city where some of my students were homeless, or dealt with gang problems or worse. And those students were almost to a person wonderful to deal with once they decided that they could trust me. Half of those students have moved on to become doctors, lawyers and other productive members of society. One of my favorites, Seth, was homeless and yet managed to get all of his homework done (including practicing clarinet every night). He never knew where his next meal was coming from or where he would sleep.
There is not comparison in my mind. The kids from nothing were more empathetic, caring, creative and motivated than the rich kids. And yet the rich kids will make more money and cause more problems. The USA may be many things, but what we are mostly is an empire in decline filled with citizens who distract themselves from the humanity around them.
Mark Barnes 10+
Thanks for your comment.
Libbey Koppinger
I see your point. It is easy for those of us who aren't immersed in the classroom to find a myriad of "what if" potentials. I recognize too your commitment to actually moving forward to effect the change some of us only talk about. And thank you for it. Truly.
(AND ... I continue to think this is an EXCELLENT debate/question - way to raise awareness.)