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proving Koran

is there any proof that show Koran not from human and is from God?
1- It was opposite of most scientific and nonscientific beliefs of people of 1400 years ago that leaded to wars between prophet and Arabs. So Koran was not copied. People had 360 God and stars were daughters of God and many more silly beliefs. I suggest study context of Arabia at that time.
2- Koran said earth is round
3- Koran said sun will turn off one day
4- Koran has many amazing numbers in words letters ,.. that makes many amazing facts.(more than accidental)
5- Koran says sun is moving
6- It is 1400 years Koran is shouting http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:88 and Koran has many enemies but no one claimed could. Many tried but it was not more than joke. (themselves accepted. Fact in history until now)
Koran said human can pass layers of skies and earth and can go to skies but needs some power. and even said human can control moon and sun and what are in skies:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/55:33
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/45:13

7- Koran describes the steps of growth of fetus in womb in 7 presise.
8- Koran appeared in city of Mekka that many conservative Jews and Christians also lived there and they had high power. Also many enemies of prophet among Arab all were trying to disprove and destroy new prophet. Koran may times claimed you can not make a book or a chapter like Koran. Indeed if they could they made a book similar to Koran against Koran to not cost for war. But there is not still any book similar Koran.
9- Koran was said during 23 years by prophet. You know the ideas of a writer changes over time. But Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict.
10- There is many facts in history many famous people in Arab wanted to destroy Koran but no one could.
11- There is no proved conflict in Koran with science.

they are only some facts about Koran.

**before referring to a verse please read it yourself and do not copy from invalid and biased links**

Topics: God Koran atheism
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  • Jun 28 2011: Dear Elam,
    Please find my new treads. I write your name at first of comment.
    "It is situational scripture for the prophet's benefit. It makes a thinking person wonder if he was making it up as he went along."
    yes they are in prophet benefit. So what?
    Bible or Torah do not have anything in benefit of prophets?
    Actually they are lessons for all women.


    Please note that Muslim and Islam mean obeying God.
    All prophets were Muslims.

    "The Qur'an is not a proof of itself. If anything it disproves itself because of so many errant sayings."
    Koran is miracle in any aspect. For example in Arabic poem and Arabic grammer.
    You are right. But Koran has not even one error

    "I have shown you proof that the Bible was not changed."
    how!
    So why many versions of it exist today?

    "I have been showing you proof that the Qur'an is false (as have many other people). You are not able to refute it because you can't so you just give up and say you will expose me, but you don't."
    please go slow. What you proved?
    please say your claims one by one and wait for reply and then say "I proved"

    Please note that the language of books differ and one word is different in languages. And today the original bible and Torah are not available.

    "All you have to do is show me a quote in the Bible that proves I am wrong and I will back off, and apologize."
    First you show original bible.

    "I find the Qur'anic account of pre Muhammad events completely unbelievable. The more I read the Qur'an the more nonsense I find. It can't all be due to the translations."
    its because you read invalid references and believed them.
    • Jun 29 2011: SR - Let's not forget there are many versions of the Qur'an today as well, translations. They are not all the same. The dead seas scrolls etc. that were written in the original language of the scribes of the time are not translations and are therefore authentic.

      We have seen here how the Qur'an has changed from the Yemeni papers to today via the addition of diacritical marks etc. which 'clarify' the meaning and therefore have the ability to alter the meaning. If was penned the exact word of God it would not need any revision vie diacritical marks etc.

      I even gave you this quote from Bukhari: "Ibn Abbas asked, 'Which of the two readings of the Qur'an do you prefer?' The Prophet answered, 'The reading of Abdallah ibn Mas'ud.' Then Abdallah came to him, and he learned what was altered and abrogated." This is reasonably clear. The Hadith says that portions of the Qur'an were conflicting, changed, and cancelled.

      Do you know what 'abrogate' means? Abrogate - to Repeal or do away with, revoke, rescind, repudiate, overturn, annul, cancel, invalidate, nullify, void, negate. You can't do any of these things without changing the actual text.

      They were not just different ways of saying the same thing.

      Then I gave you this: "the first "manuscript" wasn't even in Muhammad’s tongue, requiring it to be translated. Bukhari:V4B56N709 "Uthman called Zaid, Abdallah, Said, and Abd-Rahman. They wrote the manuscripts of the Qur'an in the form of a book in several copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi persons, 'If you differ with Zaid bin Thabit on any point of the Qur'an, then write it in the language of the Quraysh, as the Qur'an was revealed in their language.' So they acted accordingly."

      This is supposed to be the word for word exact saying of God revealed in the Arabic language, unchanged.

      According to Islam's scriptures it is just not so.

      If Bukhari isn't good enough for you then why is it in the scriptures. Tabari is even more absurd in my opinion.
      • Jun 29 2011: Koran has only one version in text.
        the versions are about reading method. not text.

        "
        We have seen here how the Qur'an has changed from the Yemeni papers to today"
        you did not show.
        oh my God!!! I explained it you before. the link you showed does not show ant important change in Yemany Koran and today Koran.
        only one word of Koran has conflict in text but is not important in meaning.

        addition of diacritical marks etc are about reading and pronunciation and not change in text or meaning. it is for having a standard pronunciation as prophet pronounced. but there is no doubt in text. it is for that different accents of Arabic not influence text of Koran in long term.

        "I even gave you this quote from Bukhari: "Ibn Abbas asked, 'Which of the two readings of the Qur'an do you prefer?' The Prophet answered, 'The reading of Abdallah ibn Mas'ud.'"
        did not you see my past reply. it is READING READING READING READING READING .
        NOT TEXT.

        "Do you know what 'abrogate' means?"
        replied 3 times before. I am sorry.

        "They were not just different ways of saying the same thing."
        so what are them? proof?

        "Then I gave you this: "the first "manuscript" wasn't even"
        Koran was protected y memorizing by at least 500 known companions. not only manuscript. many parallel ways of protecting.

        also not any hadith is valid and language of Quraish does not mean different text.

        there are many many books other than Bukhari and Tabari. you should consider them all. not only some errors in books that fit your goal.
        • Jun 30 2011: SR - The only islamic books worth considering when searching for the truth are: The Qur'an, Ishaq, Tabari, Bukhari, and perhaps Muslim who was a student of Bukhari.

          As I have pointed out before, and you cannot deny. ALL other books written about the subject are based on these. There are no other historical records before these.

          I've also pointed out that there were NOT 500 companions reciting the Qur'an as it was revealed. 8 years and more than 25 surahs into his Ministry, Muhamad had less that 30 converts! I have given you quotes to prove this and you have acknowledged that I am right, so stop saying it.

          If I were J Ali I would say to you, "stop lying or I will expose you".
        • Jul 1 2011: J Ali - I know I have offended you. I apologize for the hurt that I may have caused. I just don't know how to say my peace about Islam without calling a spade a spade.

          I have given you a challenge which you have not been able to meet in our search for the truth. That is that Muhammad was lying about his Biblical - prophet credentials. I have shown how the Torah that he referred to in his statement wherein he claims he is foretold is the same one we have today and that he is not in there. Neither is he mentioned in the New Covenant.

          You cannot give me the quotes because they do not exist. If you come up with something, you know I will demolish it because it will not be true. What you know about the Biblical characters is only from Islamic sources and that is minimal at best, entirely erroneous at worst.

          You have told me that if I want to learn about Islam I should ask those who live and love it. Not from someone who hates it. I think both is a good idea. I guess I have asked you the wrong questions, but you and SR have referred me to a number of sights that will improve my understanding, so I thank you for that.

          Perhaps you should follow your own advice. If you want to know about the Jews you should learn it form them, read the Bible. Not some one who hates them like Muhammad did. Reading what other people say about themselves is very revealing. In reading your comments I see that you get a very positive message from Islam and you see an endless amount of good there. I respect that and it reaffirms to me that there is good in everything.

          I can't help it if Craig Winn hates Islam, it's not my problem. Hating is an emotion I don't allow myself to indulge in during my quest for spiritual truth.

          Name calling and labeling does not answer questions or help. It seems to me you are a good person and are doing good so just keep it up, don't worry about people like me.

          I doubt i will get back to this site anyway as other things must be done.
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jul 1 2011: you say:

          ''BEAUTIFUL FOR MEN IS the love of the things they covet, desiring women, hoards of gold and silver, attractive horses, cattle and well-tilled land. These are the pleasures of THIS WORLD'S LIFE."''

          The correct translation, with the FULL verse is:


          ''Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things they covet: Women and sons; Heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses branded (for blood and excellence); and (wealth of) cattle and well-tilled land. Such are the possessions of this world's life; but in nearness to Allah is the best of the goals (To return to).''

          3:14

          PLEASE read the last part which you just cut off, please stop misquoting the Quran, please stop lying. Even before this verse this part is mentioned

          ''Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah. They are themselves but fuel for the Fire.''

          3:10

          Why do you lie?? is it because you hate Islam so much or is it because you are just copying from people who hate Islam?!!

          ''I know I have offended you.''

          Your arguments do not offend me, I love arguments just like our Great Muslim Scholars who have filled their books with arguments from non-Muslims..I am not scared of your arguments...I am offended by your blatant lying.....I am offended by your hate......I am not offended by people like Richard who do not lie or hate Islam.

          http://www.answering-christianity.com/craig_winns_list_of_lies.htm

          http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/deception_of_craig_winn_revealed.htm

          So please know who you are copying from.....know what you are doing....know how wrong your actions are...Do not lie, do not misquote, do not change verses.....that is what makes me feel offended.....your lies are so much, I just decided to leave you going, with your flow as Iqbal says..your flow of copying or lying..... SR, just ignore him.

          I do not know if you are innocent or not....But you for sure, you have not the Quran. you just copy..

          contd
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jul 1 2011: If I had enough time, I would see all of your comments and compile a list of your lies, your misquotes, your changing of words....... You claimed that you had read the whole Quran, but all you did was read Craig Winns books and pick out misquoted quotes from the Quran.....Craig Winn has been exposed many times....so I don't need to expose you independently, because you just copy from him...... I respect you as a human being....but I just hate it when people lie so much, misquote so much..... The Quran is the most misquoted book in the world.....and I want to ask why? why is it like that? Are people scared of the truth of the Quran or Islam?? why do you misquote? is it because of September 11? the criminals who committed those crimes were not Muslims...... I hate them just as much as you.....I hate them just as much as Craig Winn......But, Craig Winn lies, and his lies are not working. Honest people who are searching for the truth are reading the true Quran.....and people are converting to Islam faster than ever...no one is listening to you.....I think you came in to this argument thinking we didn't know anything about the Quran....But I warned you, and I exposed you... Your lies are too much to handle....I would argue with anyone who is honest...but not with people who lie.....that is why, after I exposed you copying from Craig Winn, you have decided to leave...... I decided to leave because you are a liar, you decided to leave because you were exposed.


          ''In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.''

          2:10

          ''And whenever a surah is revealed there are some of them who say: Which one of you hath thus increased in faith? As for those who believe, it hath increased them in faith and they rejoice (therefor).
          ''But as for those in whose hearts is disease, it only addeth wickedness to their wickedness, and they die while they are disbelievers.''

          9:124-125


          Contd.
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jul 1 2011: ''O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest.''

          4:174

          ''O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allah. believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.''

          4:170

          ''Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."

          7:158

          ''O men! there has come to you indeed an admonition from your Lord and a healing for what is in the breasts and a guidance and a mercy for the believers.''

          10:57

          ''Say: O people! indeed there has come to you the truth from your Lord, therefore whoever goes aright, he goes aright only for the good of his own soul, and whoever goes astray, he goes astray only to the detriment of it, and I am not a custodian over you.''

          10:108

          ''O mankind! Fear your Lord. Lo! the earthquake of the Hour (of Doom) is a tremendous thing.''

          22:1

          ''O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition!''

          22:73

          ''O mankind! do your duty to your Lord, and fear (the coming of) a Day when no father can avail aught for his son, nor a son avail aught for his father. Verily, the promise of Allah is true: let not then this present life deceive you, nor let the chief Deceiver deceive you about Allah.''

          31:33

          ''O men! you are they who stand in need of Allah, and Allah is He Who is the Self-sufficient, the Praised One.''

          35:15
        • Jul 8 2011: J Ali - Muhammad claims to be identified as a prophet of the Jewish God in the Torah that the Jews possessed in 625 A.D. Which is the same one we have today and he is not in there. I have challenged you to give me a quote from the Bible to prove what Muhammad said was true, but you cannot. When you cannot answer the tough questions you resort to name calling and labelling me a hater of Islam etc. This does nothing to prove your point. You expect that I will not be back to these discussions so you take a swipe at me from behind expecting that I won't be there to defend myself. Not nice.

          Since you have had 8 days to come up with a quote but haven't, and since unlike you, I've actually read the Bible, let me help you.

          Deuteronomy 18:22, “But the prophet who ziyd (presumptuously) debar (subdues (i.e., imposes submission or Islam)) and RECITES a book in my name which I have not commanded him to utter, or who speaks in the name of other elohiym (gods [like Allah]), that prophet shall die."

          That's about as close as we get to finding Muhammad in the Torah.

          I don't think you are being honest with yourself. Craig Winn has found many glaring problems with the Islamic scriptures that Islamist cannot answer and you're no different. I have brought some of them to the forefront here and the best you can do is hide behind the Arabic language and avoid the fact that the Qur'an has nothing to stand on but blind faith.

          I have read the Qur'an cover to cover and in my opinion the only miracle is that anyone believes it. When subjected to rational inquiry it completely falls apart. Only through deceit and circular reasoning can you defend it. Craig Winn may not be right about some things but when you put the Qur'an in the historical context of the Hadith anyone can see that Muhammad was a 'warlord' tyrant with a personal agenda, and suddenly everything makes sense. Your convoluted reasoning does not make sense to me.
        • Jul 8 2011: @J Ali – you have said, “The Quran's ideas are open for discussion...but not what the Quran says..you need to be an expert at Arabic, Islam and more to understand what the Quran is saying”. I disagree with this statement because if it were true then Islam is not for all people, as you have said somewhere else in this discussion, it is for arabic speaking people only, and even then you and SR have said only certain 'infallible' scholars are able to give the true meaning. So how can anyone be a Muslim if they do not speak arabic. As you know there are many Muslims throughout the world who do not understand arabic. How can that be? Isn't believing in Allah and his messenger essential to being a Muslim? How can one do that if they can not understand what the Islamic scriptures say? You give quotes in English and expect us to understand your point so there must be some validity to the translations.

          Okay, you say, “the Qur'an's ideas are open for discussion... but not what it says”. This does not make any sense. How can you discuss the ideas without knowing what they are, which one can only get through knowing what it says?

          This all seems to be designed to set up the ultimate 'infallible' to tell us what it says and we have no right to engage our minds in refuting anything in the Qur'an, we must accept the interpretation as absolute truth before we can even begin, in which case we are only allowed to be force fed the meanings and we just follow like zombies and believe. Is this what you do? In short, we have no choice. You have no choice because you have accepted Islam as the truth and everything follows from there.

          This is a problem for any thinking person who has been raised in a system that allows us to actually question what we hear and read, to seek the truth through rational thought and to make our own judgement based on the evidence and discuss it in a free and open manner.

          con't.
        • Jul 8 2011: You use the arabic language as an escape hatch saying that it cannot be translated into any language. I find that preposterous. I think we can at least agree that the “ideas” can be translated and therefore open to discussion.

          Qur'an position: Qur'an has true message, it is based on the Judeo scriptures which somehow, sometime got so corrupted that virtually every sentence in it has had to be changed so that the meanings of the two are completely different.

          The Qur'an gives us dialogue of Biblical characters in what is supposed to be the exact words of God. The Bible gives us dialogue etc. That is different. According to the Islamic position the Biblical account is wrong. You believe it because you have no choice, but when I look at it, I see that the Biblical account is the story of a people written by those very same people. It is historically grounded and detailed enough to give a full context of what happened, when it happened, and why. Much of the information can be verified from independent historical records, archaeological digs and artifacts. Prophets are identified by name and they actually prophesy things that can be seen to come true hundreds of years later. The information is documented over 1500 years, generation after generation until it was canonized in 100 AD. All this adds a level of believability to the content. Doesn't mean it is totally true, doesn't mean I believe it, but if it doesn't contradict independent information then who am I or you to say that it is not an honest attempt of a people to document their history as it happened?

          So then 500 years after all this is done, along comes the Qur'an that tells a completely different story about some of the same characters, offers no reference to time and context and there is nothing to historically prove the Qur'anic variation. There is no reference to Allah, Muhammad, Mecca, or the Ka'aba prior to and independent of the Qur'an or Hadith. con't.
        • Jul 8 2011: The Qur'an makes statements that are patently untrue as Richard and others have pointed out in this debate. It is told through the mouth of an Arab who had no knowledge of the Jewish people's history that it is rewriting so it could only be true IF it was the word of God.

          Qur'an 3:3: "Step by Step, He [Allah] has verily revealed to you this Book [the Qur'an] in truth and confirmation of the Books revealed before, as indeed He had revealed the Torah and the Gospel earlier as a guide for people..."
          Qur'an 5:46 "Later, in the train of the prophets, We [Allah] sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah which had been sent down before him, and gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light, which corroborated the earlier Torah."

          Again, it says, “we gave him (Jesus) the Gospel”. This statement has no chance of being true. The Gospels were not given to Jesus. In fact they were not written until 20 to 50 years after his death.

          The crux of the position of Islam is the claim that all the original patriarchs of the Bible, beginning with Abraham all the way to Jesus, were actually Muslims and worshipped God in the same way that Muslims do now, in accordance with the teachings of Muhammad who being a prophet of God, brought them back from paganism to the original faith of Islam. The Jews and the Christians of course never acknowledged this and thus still carry on in some form of pagan ignorance and fail to recognize the true faith to which they were all originally a part of, but only the Muslims now practice. If this premise is false then Islam is based on a lie.

          The Jewish God, Yahwey does not ask or order his creation to prostrate themselves in worship of him any where in the Bible nor does he demand submission, nor does he choose for them.

          Challenge: Give me one logical reason why I or anyone should believe the Qur'an's account of these Jewish characters instead of the Bibles.
      • Jul 1 2011: Dear Elam,
        the first best Islamic Books:
        1- Koran
        2- Nahj Al-Balagha from Ali (brother of Koran) http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/
        3- SAHIFA SAJJADIYYA (sister of Koran) http://www.al-islam.org/sahifa/

        then Valid Hadith Collection Books that you did not mentioned them. for example the Behar al-Anvar which is a high valuable collection with 110 volume which is one of the best Shia Islamic encyclopedia.
        also other valid Hadith Collections exist.
        there are some error hadith (sayings) in the Hadith collection books.

        about number of companions memorizing Koran:
        prophet himself always checked and memorize Koran by Gabriel (the angel of revelation)
        you are right at first years of Islam few people accepted Islam. prophet invited Arabs and his family to Islam but they did not accept. they said of you are true tell that tree come out of earth and come to To we know you are a magician or prophet. Prophet said I know you do not accept but OK. Prophet did what they wanted. Then they said tell half of tree back to its place. Prophet did. They said tell the other half go its place. Prophet did. Then they said you are a magician.
        Only Ali accepted prophet when Ali was 9 years old.
        first human accepted Islam after prophet was Ali and then Khadija (wife of prophet).
        men and women memorized Koran to protect it.
        but please note I said 500 for before death of prophet. not from fist day of Islam.
        before prophet die prophet himself audited Koran memorizing very exact and corrected them. before prophet death not important number of Koran memorizes be few. because prophet himself was alive and with direct connect to God. if prophet be not trusted then nothing has meaning. also Koran one time again completely was revealed to prophet. and at death time of prophet at least 500 companion (man and woman) were memorized all the Koran exact and correct. not important at first years of Islam memorizers were few. (500 are known well even their family tree.even more but not recorded clear and valid
      • Jul 1 2011: Dear Elam, what is your idea about Ali (PBUH)?
        why you did not say the book of Ali as your best Islamic books.
        http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/
        it is wonderful.
        please read this as a little example of Ali miracles in governance methods:
        http://www.al-islam.org/anthology/2.htm
        only a governor knows the value of this
        • Jul 9 2011: SR - Thanks for the links. I will read what you have sent me from Ali when I get a chance, I'm sure it will be informative.
      • Jul 9 2011: Dear Elam,
        "I have challenged you to give me a quote from the Bible to prove what Muhammad said was true"
        Did you see my past comments?:
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+bible
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+torah
        you are researcher or copier?

        "Deuteronomy 18:22"
        Do you consider books written by humans valid?
        Only one book of jew is valid: the original version of Torah. Not other books written by human. Unless proved to be said by Moses (PBUH)

        "Craig Winn has found many glaring problems with the Islamic scriptures "
        Do not blindly follow him. Pick one of his proofs and talk it here. And consider possibility that he be a liar.

        "hide behind the Arabic language and avoid the fact that the Qur'an has nothing to stand on but blind faith."
        You have access to arabic dics, websites, friends, consaltants, professionals and can simply disprove our claims about arabic language. Actually you are hiding behind not knowing arabic.

        "I have read the Qur'an cover to cover and in my opinion the only miracle is that anyone believes it."
        Please consider problems in yourself or quality of translate.

        "Craig Winn may not be right about some things "
        He is false about almost all things. He is Intentionally lying and changing and deviating history.

        "'warlord' tyrant with a personal agenda"
        You know prophet from glasses of an enemy of prophet so no wonder.

        "you need to be an expert at Arabic, Islam and more to understand what the Quran is saying”"
        No. Koran has many levels. If you want simple studying not need. But deep research needs.
        Please note enemies of Islam find some special arabic words in Koran with different meanings and abuse it against Islam. Such cases need knowing Arabic. But if you need study Koran no need to learn arabic. You can read translate.
        • Jul 9 2011: SR - yes I read those links. They are so full of assumptions and false reasoning that anyone could knock them to pieces. First of all there is absolutely no credible proof that Muhammad was even a descendant of Ishmael, secondly the message of Moses and Muhammad is opposite. Moses brought the Ten Commandments, Muhammad violated every one of them. There is no need to go through this point by point. The links prove nothing. Only by convoluted reasoning and misinterpretation can one draw the conclusion that Muhammad was the subject of these prophesies.

          The message of the Qur'an and Bible is opposite so reason would dictate they are not from the same god. Muhammad never once quoted any saying from the Bible ( Jesus on the other hand did).

          IF you believe those quotes are referring to Muhammad then you must believe that what the Bible says it true. You cannot give me a Bible quote and say it proves your point and then say, as you did in another comment that the Bible is false and the Qur'an is true.

          Here's the problem for Islam. If the Bible is true, the Islam is false because in contradicts it's message in virtually every way. If the Bible is not false, then again the Qur'an is false because it says:

          Qur'an 3:3: "Step by Step, He [Allah] has verily revealed to you this Book [the Qur'an] in truth and CONFIRMATION of the Books revealed before, as indeed He had revealed the Torah and the Gospel earlier as a guide for people..."

          Qur'an 46:2 "And before it the Book of Musa [Moses] was a guide: and this [Qur'an] is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language."

          Qur'an 80:13 "(It is) in Books held in (honor), exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy, (written) by the hands of scribes. Honorable, Pious, Just, Noble and righteous."

          The Qur'an does not confirm the Torah and Gospel, if it did there would be no difference in spiritual understanding between Islam, Judeo or Christianity. SO SOMEONE IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.
      • Jul 9 2011: "infallible"
        Koran has two parts. Many parts of Koran can be understood by all/ but some certain parts with more than one possible meaning only interpret of infallibles are valid and their interprets are aviable also in many books and sayings from them.

        "So how can anyone be a Muslim if they do not speak arabic. "
        People can be Muslim without know Arabic (only little min. req. is enough) but if you want to be a Koran researcher you should know Arabic. Many Muslims in Iran do not know Arabic.
        Please distinguish between Muslim and Researcher.
        Do all Jew and Christians know ancient Hebrew language?

        I have a simple Question. You do not know brain medicine. If you have a brain pain what you do? Do the same for Arabic.

        “the Qur'an's ideas are open for discussion... but not what it says”
        I do not understand what exactly j Ali says but Koran is open to discuss. People should not personally interpret Koran for their benefit with not enough proof.
        People always asked infallible and they replied them. Infallible do not say anything irrational. Infallible are representatives of God. You can not find even one error or irrational saying of them. If you see an infallible you love him immediately (if you not be enemy of God). Infallibles are open to discuss and always replied people rationally and people accept them rationally, not blindly. Infallible is all knowing with absolute knowledge of anything and is open to discuss and never says "I do not know"
        I recommend you first know them well. you will love them.
        www.al-islam.org
        they all killed or jailed for you. read their life.

        "You believe it because you have no choice"
        Also fact is that many different versions of Bible exist today. What means this? Which is true Bible?!

        Koran is always compatible with facts, science, rational and knowledge and wisdom.

        "It is historically grounded and detailed enough to give a full context of what happened"
        No. because religion was a tool of power and Bible was intentionally deviated.
      • Jul 9 2011: "until it was canonized in 100 AD"
        Bible was deviated Intentionally before 100 AD. Because even at that time more than one version of Bible existed and non was original bible of time of life of Jesus (PBUH).

        "honest attempt of a people to document their history as it happened? "
        Who are them. Please not today media is in control of Zionists who are enemy of religion and feed people what want even false information about history that people think they are true history.

        "offers no reference "
        No no no

        If some one do enough research can find facts in old scriptures.

        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+bible
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+torah

        "as Richard and others have pointed out in this debate."
        They are apparently untrue. Please read replies to them.
        They are blind copying from invalid links.

        "Qur'an 3:3: "Step by Step, "
        Yes but Koran means original books. But deviated versions or books written by hand of human. Why you not see such verses in Koran:??!!
        http://tanzil.net/#2:79 and many such verses about deviations in scriptures.
        Only pick verses in your benefit?
        this is what Craig Winn feeds you and you accept without research.

        "were actually Muslims "
        Yes true.
        "and worshipped God in the same way that Muslims do now"
        No. when Koran said this? Their methods was different.
        This is again lies of Craig Winn.
        Religions had differences.

        "nor does he demand submission, nor does he choose for them."
        are you sure this?

        "Challenge: Give me one logical reason why I or anyone should believe the Qur'an's account of these Jewish characters instead of the Bibles."
        1- if you accept REAL God exist
        2- if you know why God created human
        3- if you know why God sent prophets
        4- if you accept Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (peace upon them) were same messengers of God

        Then you automatically accept that the latest and most updated and most valid and minimum deviated religion and book and prophet sent really from God is the best choice of TODAY.
        • Jul 13 2011: SR- Thank you for getting back to me. You truly are dedicated. I apologize for being so abrupt. Let me take a little more time to consider what you say.

          You are convinced that the Bible changed a lot during it's 1500 years of construction and you are right to some extent, as far as I can tell. But it would have to have changed almost completely for the Qur'an to be right. The Jewish concept of the one true God is not the same at all as the Islamic. But my point was more to the historical accuracy of the accounts of certain Biblical character's lives would have to change in order for the Qur'an to be right. History that is proven to be largely correct through independent means. At least the Bible has a historical perspective. The Qur'an has none. It just parachutes in 600 years later and brings an entirely different story with nothing to prove it's reliability but blind faith in that Muhammad was saying in his recitals was the exact revelation of God.

          Again, no one but Muhammad heard the message until he recited what was revealed. There is nothing in history to prove his version of events from Abraham to Jesus. Nothing.

          I'm looking for a rational reason why I should believe the Qur'anic version when the Biblical one is so much more comprehensive and complete and makes sense and can be verified to some extent by independent history.

          The Qur'an is not clear if it requires an 'infallible' to explain it. I'm sure they are great guys but I like to be able to recognize God for myself. He shouldn't be hiding behind the wisdom of a rare few.

          Yes, I pick verses in the Qur'an which are to the benefit of my point, and you pick verses which are to the benefit of your point. Some of these verses are contradictory and that is why we get a different message.

          And yes I am sure that Yahweh does not demand submission nor does he choose our religion for us. I don't think any Biblical scholar would argue that.

          The differences between Yahweh and Allah are extreme.
        • Jul 13 2011: Thank you Iqbal, these are very good Biblical quotes written 600 years before Muhammad showed up on the scene.

          SR - I've asked you for a logical/rational reason to believe the Qur'anic account of Biblical events. You have suggested, I think, that if I see that Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were all prophets of the same God then it is logical that I would choose to follow the last one. The problems are:
          1) Moses is not even identified as a prophet in the Bible. It tells the story of his life and the hand that God played in it.
          2) Jesus was a prophet but his message is opposite to Muhammad's so I cannot believe in both, even though both profess to speak on behalf on one true God.

          The Biblical account of events is grounded in historical context etc., The Qur'an's is not. The Bible has many prophets who narrate stories with a consistent perspective of God over 1500 years. Muhammad was the only one who heard his revelations and they are not consistent with Biblical perspectives. Furthermore Muhammad was a known liar who counseled his followers to lie for his personal benefit. He committed lying, stealing and murder on behalf of his God and said it was okay because the ends justify the means.

          Again, why should I rationally believe the Qur'an's account of events, which contradicts the Bible's? I say it is logical that I follow the one that makes the most sense not necessarily the last one since it is different and I cannot follow both.

          The basic message of the Qur'an as I see it is: 'Fear Allah and obey the Messenger and pay the money so the Messenger can become rich and powerful, or Allah will kick your ass in the hereafter.'

          Fact is no one could commit a crime against his human brethren and say they did it because Jesus did, yet anyone could say they committed murder, stealing and lying because Muhammad did. This does not bode well for a supposed prophet of God.
      • Jul 10 2011: about first youtube I think I replied you.
        about second :
        Islam has no trinity and all is clear. Allah is God and creator.
        Muhammad (PBUH) is messenger of God.
        Gibrael is the angel of revelation. and delivers messages from God to prophet.
        the black stone of Kaaba is a special stone came to earth from Heaven. it is a holy stone. nothing more. some says it has been an angel who was friend of Adam in Heaven and came to Adam to help him not cry so much. and after speaking Adam that angel changed the shape to stone and Adam carried it with himself until God said Adam place that stone in Kaba.
        please if there is still any question please ask.
        Islam has no trinity and trinity is considered a sin in Islam.
        any kind of believing to more than one God is banned and sin in Islam and is like praying statue (deity)
        • Jul 13 2011: SR-Wow, you really are brave. I wouldn't want to try to explain away the black stone that Muhammad repeatedly kissed while circumambulating the Ka'aba in the typical pagan fashion of the day.

          So Adam placed this special angelic stone in the Ka'aba some 7000 years ago and Muslims still circumambulate it today. This is starting to sound like a fairy tale. I don't think I'll bother to get into this one right now, I just don't have the time.

          But I can't help asking a few more questions.

          What did Abraham do when he took Ishmael to the Ka'aba? Qur'an 2:127 " As Abraham and Ishmael built up the foundations of the House (they prayed) 'Our Lord accept (this) from us. You are the all hearing, the All Knowing."

          Why did Abraham cross 900 miles of desert to arrive in the middle of no where and build the Ka'aba if the promised land was Israel? as indicated even by Allah in 5:21.

          Who is Quasay? and what did he accomplish? Who is Ar-Rahman? Why if Yahweh is the one true God as depicted in the Biblical scriptures does he change his name to Ar-Rahman and then to Allah in the Qur'anic scriptures? Why are these names not mentioned in the Biblical scriptures if we are dealing with the same God.

          The only explanation you have given is that the Bible was changed? Why would the Biblical scribes generation after generation for 1500 years bother to change the name of their God throughout? Just to foil Muhammad? Why would they depict a God whose Character is completely different than that of Allah? Just to foil Muhammad? Why would they corrupt their own spiritual understanding of themselves and their God by changing their scriptures from what they originally were? Just to foil Muhammad?

          Remember, Jesus came and opened the door for all people to believe in the God of Love.

          I know I am firing a lot of questions at you here and it is too much to answer in this forum. You have given me some links to follow so I will continue to study it.
      • Jul 10 2011: Dear Elam,
        sorry, when I said "if I accept first that the Qur'an is the true representation of the REAL God"?
        please look at no.1 it is first.
        it is not circular. you can accept or not accept existence of God. and accepting God is by wisdom and science and knowledge not circular.
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
        please do not misquote me.

        "I asked you for a LOGICAL reason."
        Dear Elam. this is step by step like studying grades. before you get diploma you can not get Phd. first of all you should solve problem of existence of God and decide about it. all depends on God.
        this maybe useful. this is Logical:
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
        read it from first to end.

        "Your reply has completely failed."
        if you read my no.1 carefully it is not failed. no.1 itself is a long talk (talk of yourself with yourself based on your knowledge and logic). if you passed no. 1 then other start.

        "Qur'an 2:7 "GOD has sealed their hearts and their ears"
        please read carefully:
        1- human has free will
        2- God gives gifts like food life body eye ear money wife ,.... equal to all people. actually God is helping all humans equal regardless of their beliefs
        3- based on free will people become two main category: believe God & not believe God
        4- based on selected category a human walk in a way (of two way) until end of his life.
        5- the life is by help of God actually human lives with helps and gifts of God.
        6- how much human lives more and more his beliefs become stronger more and more (by helps of God)
        7- so God is helping them divisible God more and more
        8- God calls disbelievers blind and deaf because they do not accept truth.
        9- so first they select to be disbeliever then God help them to strength their beliefs
        10- so actually God is making them beliefs by his gifts and helps but first themselves selected this and God only helped them. (God not decided for them. they have free will)
        • Jul 13 2011: SR - Hi, back to the challenge of logical choice. Your answer was:

          "1- if you accept REAL God exist" Okay, let's go with that. I accept.

          "2- if you know why God created human" I am not sure, but I would say it is a natural cause of God being everywhere. He created us so that we might be like him since we came from him/her. In Qur'an 51:56 Allah says, "I have created jinn and men only to worship Me." This seems awfully egotistical of God. He needs his ego stroked so he created us puny humans for one purpose only, to worship him?

          "3- if you know why God sent prophets" Let's see, in the Bible God sent prophets to help keep the people on the straight and narrow, so they would not go astray, and to prophesy the coming of the Messiah who is the intercessor between imperfect man and perfect God. The prophets also documented the history of the people. They warned the people of real calamities that were about to befall them and they prophesied the end times for man when the equation between man and God would be changed.

          In the Qur'an there is but one prophet that counts and he came to scam the people and build a religion so he could get rich, have lots of sex and have power and authority over the people for his own personal gain. At least that's what I gather from the Qur'an and Hadith.

          What do you think?

          Moses and Jesus carried essentially the same message. Muhammad brought a completely different message so it could not have been from the same God. I just can't get past this one. You must read the Bible to get the difference, especially the New Covenant. How does anyone know what is good unless they find out what is bad? Really, read it. If you are seeking the truth it can't hurt. Just read it for what it says. If you condemn it before reading it as a changed doctrine that would otherwise have been the same as the Qur'an you will get nothing out of it. Just read it. You won't have to believe it but you will be wiser.
        • Jul 13 2011: SR -
          you say: "2- God gives gifts like food life body eye ear money wife ,.... equal to all people. actually God is helping all humans equal regardless of their beliefs"

          I simply love your interpretation of God. It seems correct to me, if there is a God.

          You know what is good and what is bad. Thank you for being who you are.

          Forgive me if I struggle with the Islamic scriptures which so often seem to contradict your point of view.

          Nothing further to say on these points 1 to 10.
      • Jul 10 2011: "SR - yes I read those links. They are so full of assumptions and false reasoning"
        agree. but not all of them. I only showed you them for start of research not for proof. I have not done such research yet. I left this one to you. but if needed I can do it and show you proof.
        you know its google and is only a tool for research. not proof itself.

        "First of all there is absolutely no credible proof that Muhammad was even a descendant of Ishmael"
        1- all know dates of each. it is clear.
        2- prophets has knowledge of future from God and any prophet says the name and signs of next messenger to people. prophets know future.

        "the message of Moses and Muhammad is opposite"
        at first look yes. but with doing enough research and finding false parts of scripture there is not conflict. they all are messengers of same God.


        "Moses brought the Ten Commandments, Muhammad violated every one of them."
        please do not say what you are not sure. do more resarch.
        do you know those ten exact?

        "The message of the Qur'an and Bible is opposite "
        only who can say this that be professional in both. please do not go so quick. be patient.

        "as you did in another comment that the Bible is false "
        1- its partially false
        2- its clear that different versions of bible exist today and this proves not all of them are truth.
        3- it is possible to find true parts of bible today. but it is not simple and needs deep research

        "Muhammad never once quoted any saying from the Bible "
        do not say what you do not know. many of such quote exist in Koran. example:
        http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%84%20%D8%B9%D9%8A%D8%B3%D9%8A

        "You cannot give me a Bible quote and say it proves your point "
        i can but it takes time and I am not professional in Bible. also really non of these helped you?!:
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+bible
        if you still insist on this I should research on it. I asked yourself do this research.

        again and again:
        first you should separate original and false parts of scripture.
        • Jul 13 2011: SR -
          Me -"First of all there is absolutely no credible proof that Muhammad was even a descendant of Ishmael"
          Your answer, 1- all know dates of each. it is clear.

          Please provide at least a link. As you know there is a tremendous void from the illiterate people of Arabia. There is 2600 years between Ishmael and Muhammad. You say you have lineage records covering this entire time. I am very interested in this knowledge.

          The descendents of Issac kept records of their lineage in anticipation of the arrival of the Messiah who was to be from the lineage of David from the tribe of Levi.

          The covenant of the Jewish God, Yahweh as depicted in the Bible is with the descendants of Issac. Ishmael has nothing to do with it. I suppose you think that they changed the Bible 1000's of years before Muhammad just to foil him.

          Of interest here: Tabari reports: "Both statements are supported by testimony related on the authority of the Prophet. Both statements are equally sound since they both came from the Prophet. Thus only the Qur'an could serve as proof that the account naming Isaac was clearly the more truthful of the two." But if that is the case, Islam falters, since it draws its legitimacy from Ishmael. Muhammad claims that he was "prophet quality" because he was a direct descendant of Ishmael. In the Bible, nobody cares about Ishmael and his descendants anymore, they have nothing to do with the covenant.

          Tabari II:83 "'We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.' [Qur'an 37:107] refers to Isaac." But how can that be? In verse 104 Allah says, "We called out, 'Abraham, You have fulfilled your dream, thus do we reward the good. That was indeed a trying test.' So... 37:112: We gave him the good news of Isaac." How can Abe have nearly sacrificed Isaac if the reward for fulfilling that trying test was Isaac? Or is the Qur'an just jumping around in time and therefore misleading us?
        • Jul 16 2011: SR -
          Me, "Muhammad never once quoted any saying from the Bible "

          You, "do not say what you do not know. many of such quote exist in Koran. example:
          http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%84%20%D8%B9%D9%8A%D8%B3%D9%8A"

          SR - please be advised that when Jesus quoted the prophet Isiah or some other Biblical character you can actually go to the Bible and find that quote. You will not find any of Muhammad's supposed quotes in the Bible.

          Why can we find what Jesus says is in there but not what Muhammad says if they are both speaking for the same God? Muhammad's scriptural quotes are a farce. There is no independent record that shows anyone during the time of Jesus used the terms Muslim, Allah, or Islam like Muhammad said (or supposedly recited from Allah word for word), Why, because they didn't exist.

          Evidence of Islam's existence from Jesus all the way back to Noah simply is not there. This is a desperate struggle for legitimacy that Islam cannot win. In the end it will prove itself to be a lie. In fact it already has, it's just a matter of time before Islamic adherents admit it.
      • Jul 13 2011: Dear Elam,
        You are wise human at least hearing me without prejudice. The ability that most western people do not have it . They immediately attack Muslims based on Images like Bin laden and so on.

        "The Jewish concept of the one true God is not the same at all as the Islamic."
        OK. So one of them has problems. Which?

        "History that is proven to be largely correct through independent means."
        how you define "proven largely correct"? And how they proved?
        Please distinguish between "largely believed correct" and "largely proved correct".

        "At least the Bible has a historical perspective. The Qur'an has none. "
        there is ocean of Islamic literature and history. But mostly in Arabic and Persian language. I think even 1% of Islamic literature and history is not translated. For each subject thousands of sayings exist. For example for a subject like Hajj I think at least 10000 sayings exist.

        "nothing to prove it's reliability but blind faith "
        Please do not say this about Muslims before you have enough knowledge and research about it.

        "Again, no one but Muhammad heard the message until he recited what was revealed."
        Yes this is definition of prophet.

        "There is nothing in history to prove his version of events from Abraham to Jesus. Nothing."
        did any history exist at that time? When paper was used? Does history proves the scripture version of events from Abraham to Jesus (PBUT). In this case all Abrahamic religions are the same. For example consider Noah Ark story. It is in Koran as well as in scriptures.

        "I'm looking for a rational reason why I should believe the Qur'anic version when the Biblical one is so much more comprehensive and complete and makes sense and can be verified to some extent by independent history."
        1- A rational human does not believe none of them before enough research.
        2- For each one you first should can in documents in their own language. Not a simple internet search.
        3- Make sure Islamic information are much more comprehensive and complete. B
      • Jul 13 2011: 3- Make sure Islamic information are much more comprehensive and complete. But they are not in your language!

        "The Qur'an is not clear if it requires an 'infallible' to explain it. "
        Koran has two parts. Some are clear and some not. Infallible is for unclear parts. Now did you used its clear parts first? If you start God does not leave you and Guides you.
        God promised:" who try in our way Indeed we show them our ways"
        http://tanzil.net/#29:69

        "I like to be able to recognize God for myself."
        Please note Koran and prophet and religion is not for recognizing God.
        recognizing God is by wisdom. Then if you needed details for reaching and meeting God then they are guides and helps for details. Wisdom can not understand details. Revelation is help for covering errors of wisdom.

        "Some of these verses are contradictory and that is why we get a different message."
        The are contradictory at first look. But more research show they are parts of bigger message.

        "And yes I am sure that Yahweh does not demand submission nor does he choose our religion for us. "
        You mean there is no sin or good or evil defined in Judaism? Doing goods means submission. Submission is doing instructions. Submission is obeying.
        Did not Yahweh choose Judaism?


        "The differences between Yahweh and Allah are extreme. "
        please research more. Any problem will be solved by more research.


        Dear Iqbal,
        I agree all your sayings about liar prophets.
        but what is your proof that Muhammad (PBUH) was one of them?
        what is your method for distinguish a real and fake prophet?

        what you consider below?
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith,_Jr.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1b
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27u%27ll%C3%A1h
        or many other

        better to know right know at least 50 prophet and "final savior" are in prisons of Iran!
        do you know Jesus and Mahdi (PBUT) will appear soon from hide and will make a world government in peace?
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi

        I ask you research
        • Jul 13 2011: SR - I can't keep on with this, I simply don't have time.

          Here's the bottom line, for God to create the universe and all that is in it and for it work in harmony in the miraculous ways that it does, it would have to have been an act of love or at the very least, positive energy, nothing would have survived if it was done in hatred or enmity. Conditions were made favourable for life and the cosmos and hence they/we are here. Everything in the world, being the creation of God, is an expression of that love. Hate and negativity also exist but could not have been responsible for creation because within their context, nothing would have survived. Truth and love coincide with God's position because God is love. Furthermore for God to be omniscient he would be in everything and everything would be a part of him.

          Think about it: we came from love; therefore, we must be love in some way, since we must be like what we came from. Jesus put it this way, “He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” Pretty basic.

          Yet somehow through life we manage to move away from our original nature, that which we were created from. Every thought of non-love is a movement away from where we came from, our creator. Every act of judgement, shame, FEAR, anxiety, hatred and violence is a movement toward not loving and not knowing God. Even an anti-love thought is a movement away from our original nature and our creator.

          How is it possible for God to counsel us to kill other members of his creation if they don't believe what we do? How is it possible for God to counsel us to “curse” our fellow members of creation, God's creation? And thereby move toward hatred instead of love.

          I don't think God while expressing to us his nature through scripture, so that we might understand, could possible do that. Therefore Allah is not God and Muhammad is not his messenger because they did all this.

          continued.
        • Jul 14 2011: SR - con't. computer problems and was not able to finish.

          Why would God want to deceive us, lead us astray and torture us in hell, send down scripture that portrays this behaviour in graphic detail so that we might FEAR him and obey the messenger?
          All religions are manmade and designed for the control of people by a select few. A deity of endless nit-picking rules Who is easily offended; always being sinned against; prone to anger, revenge and punishment, like Allah, simply cannot be God, but rather is an obvious creation of man to control others.
          I agree with the words of Dr. Ken W. Dyer in his book 'The Shift' “I don't believe that God is concerned with whether or not we show our love by building magnificent edifices for worship, attending services, or through practicing rules laid down by religious organizations. It seems to me that if God were to speak to us, the message would simply be to love each other and offer reverence instead of enmity toward all life.” The Islamic scriptures totally fail in this regard.
          Qur'anic quotes: 3:56 “I will make the disbelievers suffer severely in this world and the next; no one will help them.”
          Qur'an 5:33 "The recompense for those who fight against Allah and His Messenger and are mischief-makers in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.
          Qur'an 9:5 “When the [four] forbidden months are over, wherever you find the idolaters, kill them, seize them, besiege them, wait for them at every lookout post; but if they turn [to God], maintain the prayer, and pay the zakat tax, let them go on their way, for God is most forgiving and merciful.”
          Qur'an 4:93 ''And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and CURSE him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.''
      • Jul 15 2011: "Why would God want to deceive us"
        God does not deceive. human has free will. human selects the way. and God helps human going the selected way.

        " scripture that portrays this behaviour in graphic detail so that we might FEAR him"
        God did not send graphics. humans made graphics.

        "All religions are manmade and designed for the control of people"
        religion does not control. human is free. human by free will selects to be controlled by religion. so human is controlling itself by religion.

        "simply cannot be God, but rather is an obvious creation of man to control others."
        why? proof? why something sinned is not God?

        "I don't believe that God is concerned "
        yes God is not concerned. human is free to obey or disobey God and it has no benefit or harm for God. benefit is for human. worship is like homework. if you not do yourself lose not teacher.

        about killing please consider all verses related. Koran first insists on peace and talk. but for who block Islam to be heard by people Islam as final way allow fighting them. please do not cut peace verses. and do not show only killing verses.
        killing is ruled and is not for any non-Muslims. it also includes some Muslims. the base in Islam is talk and peace. but some times like cutting a sick organ of body there is not way but fight and killing. please first know all rules and do not pick only rules of killing. also know who exactly Koran says should be killed. who covers and hide truth (true Islam) from his people and feed his people lies about Islam should be killed. not any non-muslims.
        always many non-muslims from all religions came to prophet and prophet welcomed them and talked them with respect and they came back to their country and prophet did not kill them. the history is full of such talks. please do not make a dark Image of Islam by picking some special verses.
        Koran totally should be considered. not only few verses.
        its like I pick execution law from all US laws and I make propaganda that US is all killing
        • Jul 16 2011: SR - Me, "Why would God want to deceive us"

          You, "God does not deceive. human has free will. human selects the way. and God helps human going the selected way."

          Allah deceives. This is a fact.

          Qur'an 2:7 : "Allah has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have great torment."

          4:142 "The hypocrites try to deceive Allah, but it is he who caused them to be deceived."

          Allah deceived the Jews and the Romans when he replaced Jesus with someone else who looked like him to die on the cross. As a result 3 billion Christians have been deceived by Allah.
          God by his very nature is incapable of deceit. The moment he becomes dishonest, he ceases to be good. If God is not true, there is no value in knowing him. And since the Islamic god deceives and leads men astray he can never be trusted, as there is no way of knowing when he is lying.

          One of Allah's names is 'The Deceiver". I'll just call him that from now on, you'll know who I mean.

          Qur'an 4:168 "Allah will not forgive those who disbelieve and do evil, nor will He guide them to any path except that of Hell, where they will remain forever - this is easy for Allah.

          - By Allah describing his torments in hell in graphic detail I mean 'great detail'

          Me, "All religions are manmade and designed for the control of people"
          You, "religion does not control. human is free. human by free will selects to be controlled by religion. so human is controlling itself by religion." Same point. Thanks.

          Me, "simply cannot be God, but rather is an obvious creation of man to control others."
          You, "why? proof? why something sinned is not God?" See above.

          You, "please do not cut peace verses. and do not show only killing verses." Why not? you cut killing verses and only show peace verses.

          Note: the US laws are not considered the exact word of God.
      • Jul 18 2011: "Allah deceives. This is a fact. "
        you mean cheat?
        Allah only cheat who cheat Allah:
        http://tanzil.net/#3:54

        "Allah deceived the Jews and the Romans when he replaced Jesus with someone else who looked like him to die on the cross. As a result 3 billion Christians have been deceived by Allah."
        many Christians now Jesus (PBUH) is hidden and not dead.
        true believers and followers of Christ know truth. Jesus (PBUH) guides them even now.
        you do not know the deceive of Allah well.
        http://tanzil.net/#search/root/%D9%85%D9%83%D8%B1

        deceive not means lying. please first understand it.
        God never deceive a honest human. God deceive who deceive.
        God treat any one like himself.

        "One of Allah's names is 'The Deceiver""
        first understand it well. God is Deceiver for who? for all?

        "You, "why? proof? why something sinned is not God?" See above. "
        sin is disobeying God. sin has no meaning for God. God is not responsible to any one. and all rules of God are clear in Koran.

        "you cut killing verses and only show peace verses."
        no. I want to have true Image of Islam. Islam has also war. but understand correct what kind of war and when is allowed in Islam.

        "Note: the US laws are not considered the exact word of God. "
        I made only one example.
        if some one want to Know US should consider all rules true. not only some and biased and based on propaganda
        • Jul 23 2011: SR-
          you say, " Allah only cheat who cheat Allah". That statement is the crux of non spiritual thinking. Why would God have to cheat anyone? I mean ANYONE. Isn't he God? How can he be cheated? He knows everything. If you fail in your heart it is only man who cheats himself. God is being cheated so he cheats back!? Someone who is trying to control other people might try to out cheat them, but this should be well below a spiritual know er of truth like God. Why would God stoop to play petty cheating games with man?

          I think God is the inner most purest energy, thought, expression possible. That which draws us toward doing good for the sake of connecting to this positive energy. Not that which tries to frighten us away from doing bad. But even if it is both, I cannot see how it is possible for God to cheat us nor why he would want to, or find it necessary to.

          This might be a reasonable sentiment for a cunning human wanting to outsmart his adversaries, but a God who stoops this low, would be a weakling.
      • Jul 18 2011: "You will not find any of Muhammad's supposed quotes in the Bible."
        1- this is based on your Image. not on actual research of you. to prove please show some example.
        2- today Bibles are not from God they are from humans after Jesus (PBUH) so no wonder they have some errors.

        "if they are both speaking for the same God?"
        the original versions have no conflict. also this is your Image. please show some example.
        also bible should not be taken literally.
        and please accept some false information mixed in bible. also which bible you say?

        "Evidence of Islam's existence from Jesus all the way back to Noah simply is not there. This is a desperate struggle for legitimacy that Islam cannot win. In the end it will prove itself to be a lie."
        you are talking based on propaganda. not your deep research.

        "In fact it already has, it's just a matter of time before Islamic adherents admit it."
        huge convert to Islam in west says other thing.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMi_-xqhBYw
        • Jul 23 2011: SR - Me:"You will not find any of Muhammad's supposed quotes in the Bible."

          You: "1- this is based on your Image. not on actual research of you. to prove please show some example."

          I've read both and neither Muhammad nor Allah quote anything that you can look up in the Bible.

          Let me re-phrase that. You will not find Allah's quotes of Biblical characters in the Bible. What's more, the dialogue of these characters in the Qur'an is concerned with entirely different issues than the Bible.

          You cannot show me any legitimate proof that Islam existed any time from Jesus back to Noah and you know it. the Qur'anic tale is completely unproven. It's out on a limb and counter to all known human history. With this at stake and a ridiculous lack evidence, you simply must admit that it is possible that the Qur'an is wrong. If so, you know how the dominoes fall.

          A world conspiracy is a pretty thin thread to hang from when you consider the mountain of ancient artifacts that continue to be found.
      • Jul 20 2011: Dear Iqbal,
        in Islam there is more thousands of sayings about signs of Antichrist at end of world.
        please do not interpret who is Antichrist without proof and evidence.
        determining Antichrist is not simple and needs much research.
        also Antichrist is who comes and end of world.
        prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came 1400 years ago and died.
        Antichrist washes brain of people to people believe he is friend of Christ.
        Nosterdamos is not valid and perhaps friend of Antichrist.
        Nosterdamos is made big using TV and media and simple people believe Nosterdamos lies.
      • Jul 21 2011: Dear iqbal,
        I do not know who is Antichrist. we only know signs. maybe he has not born yet. and maybe it is not a human and is a concept and maybe is a general name for many humans in history. anyway it needs much research. and exact understanding of bible.

        I explained you many times about prophet and 6 years old that it is not true. prophet did not have sex with a 6 years old. please do not believe anything you hear without enough research.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt7vS7kxc50

        about your video God intentionally wants to humans see such humans.
        also any of Fourteen Infallibles can cure such sicks. many many of sicks without cure have cured with them. their body are dead (unless the final who is alive now) but they are now alive and reply to people who meet them.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles

        Imam Ridha is known in world as a doctor with miracle. the cases of people who come from all over the world and cure are not few.
        http://www.imamreza.net/

        also Imam Hussain (PBUH) cures peace of cake

        if a sick has drug people should use drug.
        but for those not having any drug they help. (also some times what have drug. they are extreme merciful to people)

        about signs of true and false prophet I have no prophet to check them about Muhammad (PBUH). but if you promise do not judge based on propaganda and use research.
        a true prophet have fruit. avesina and thousands of Persian scientists and poets are only little example of fruits of him.
      • Jul 23 2011: Dear Elam,
        "Why would God have to cheat anyone?"
        Cheating God is a evil deed. And all punishments of God are similar to deed. So the punishment of cheating God is cheat of God.
        Cheat of God is kind of punishment of God.

        "How can he be cheated?"
        Cheating God means a humans thinks is cheating God. But this not mean God is cheated. This is think of human.

        "God is being cheated so he cheats back!? "
        God is not cheated. Some Human try to cheat God.
        Koran not said God is cheated. Said some people try cheat God.


        "I think God is the inner most purest energy"
        God is not energy. But God created energy. Please read some about what is energy.

        Please define positive energy.

        What Induces good thinks in our mind is wisdom (which is a prophet of God) and what induces evil thinks in mind is Satan.

        Some cases of cheats of God is described in Koran. For example God forgets himself from mind of some people and the drawn in money and worldly think and God immediately hunt them with death and they go Hell while they had been forgotten to think and research about God.
        This is one cheat of God for who God do not want to go Heaven. (this is a punish of their past deeds for some evil humans)

        "the dialogue of these characters in the Qur'an is concerned with entirely different issues than the Bible."
        I disagree. Bible is partially changed. But still many common parts exist In both. Please show evidence and example. And do not repeat your beliefs with no proof.

        "You cannot show me any legitimate proof that Islam existed any time from Jesus back to Noah and you know it. "
        Oh my God I repeat again: Islam means obeying and submission to God. All prophets were obeying God. So all are Muslim. Islam is not a especial name like "tree" Islam is a general name like "good". No need to arabic word "Islam" exactly exist in Bible. The translation of Islam is submission. Find it in bible.
        All prophets were submitted to God.

        "A world conspiracy is a pretty thin thread to hang from when you conside
      • Jul 23 2011: "A world conspiracy is a pretty thin thread to hang from when you consider the mountain of ancient artifacts that continue to be found."
        it is relative and means deviations in history. Not mean history is 100% false. It means some false and propaganda is mixed in mind of people by using large media like bbc cnn fox holly wood and so on. Please understand what I mean and do not misquote me. Indeed most parts of history is true. But zeonism abuses the media to change mind of people for his own benefit.
      • Jul 23 2011: Dear iqbal,
        people who can do extraordinary works are two category:
        1- who get their power from God and do miracle.
        2- who get their power from Satan.

        the 1 do not ask any money money for their miraculous helps to people and even after their death if one go to their tomb or even not at tomb they still can help people by miracles.
        but group 2 work for money.

        "when a Iman has some incurable disease he flies to some western country to get treatment from a Jew."
        please note Imam has two meaning. the main mean is only who is representative of God in earth which in Islam are only:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        and also all prophets of God are Imam. Imam is a level higher than prophet and prophet after some tests can become Imam.

        but today a religious leader is also called Imam but it is different meaning.
        yes some go to west for medicine. also many from west come Iran for cheap medicine and surgeries. Iran is good in medicine. Islam says first go doctor but if there was no way Imams can help and this is not for all. but many many people were and now are cured amazingly and miraculously at tombs of Imams.

        "-- doesn't matter whether 6 yrs or 60 yr olds. doesn't make him a true prophet though."
        please talk rational. what is problem of marring an adult girl?
        if this is bad in your country or religion it should be banned in Islam? why? perhaps your beliefs are wrong.

        "there were bigger and brighter people in the world than Avesina.'
        perhaps. it depends of defined of bigger. but Jesus (PBUH) says fruit. fruit is not only biggest man. there are thousands of fruits of Muhammad (PBUH).

        "There were no Avesinas without Indian science and mathematics.'
        do not go fast. he was Kharazmi who used 2 Indian book as refrece.
        if no Indian scientists they also did their work. but thanks for Indians. this is usual in science.

        I not defined God. God had rules. God makes sick to people know value of Health.
    • Jun 29 2011: SR - you say, "yes they are in prophet benefit. So what?
      Bible or Torah do not have anything in benefit of prophets?"

      Unlike Muhammad, Bible prophets did not prophesy for their own benefit. It was for the benefit of their people. Unlike Muhammad, none of them got rich from it. Unlike Muhammad, none of them stole 'booty' from anyone enemy or not. Unlike Muhammad, non of them took sex slaves, wives and concubines from the people they over came after killing their husbands, brother and fathers in terrorist raids or wars.

      you say, "Please note that Muslim and Islam mean obeying God.
      All prophets were Muslims." Islam means "submission" and Muslim means "one who submits". If by Muslim you mean anyone who was doing God's work in good faith, then I get your point. Still one problem though. None of these pre Muhammad prophets would have used the word as Allah claims in his Qur'an because the word didn't exist back in the time of Jesus (30 AD) nor Moses in 1200 BC etc.

      Once again, show me a single document where the term 'Muslim' is used from the time of Jesus back to Abraham.
      Quite frankly Islam's credibility depends on it. If you cannot then you have not only failed to prove the Qur'an is true, you will have proved it to be false for it is not possible that all these important people would have used the term ( as Allah says) and it never got written down anywhere. Maybe you will prove me wrong, but I don't think so.

      I don't have to show you an original Bible. I just have to show you one they would have had in 625 AD when Muhammad said, Ishaq:269 'you know quite well that the Qur'an is from Allah. You will find it written in the Torah WHICH YOU HAVE.'

      It isn't there in the dead sea scrolls, it isn't there at the time the bible was canonized in 100 AD and it isn't there today, nothing has changed since 100 AD, so I can't see why it would be in there in 625 . Meanwhile Muhammad was illiterate so how would he know?
      • Jun 29 2011: also cases in Koran are in benefit of people. it needs research about them. please do not prejudice. you should know many things about history of Islam then you see they are in benefit of people.
        you are not a real researcher.

        "non of them took sex slaves, wives and concubines from the people they over came after killing their husbands, brother and fathers in terrorist raids or wars."
        are you sure?
        did have Jesus (PBUH) any war? any prophet was in situation of prophet did same behaviors. contexts are different so behaviors are different. but laws of God are the same.

        "because the word didn't exist back in the time of Jesus (30 AD) nor Moses in 1200 BC etc."
        "Once again, show me a single document where the term 'Muslim' is used from the time of Jesus back to Abraham."
        you should seek translate of Muslim word in Hebrew.

        "Quite frankly Islam's credibility depends on it."
        not only. Islam has enough independent credit and miracles and proof even if all old scriptures are not available. but if you research in old books you will find.
        SEEKER IS FINDER

        "You will find it"
        it means after seeking and research. not buying a bible from first shop and reading it.
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+bible
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+torah

        you are researcher or copier?

        "It isn't there in the dead sea scrolls, it isn't there at the time the bible was canonized in 100 AD and it isn't there today, nothing has changed since 100 AD, so I can't see why it would be in there in 625 ."
        there is. but needs research and not easy to find. and also it is not in Arabic language. Muhammad (PBUH) word is Arabic. but you can find other words only matching Muhammad (PBUH).
        also Koran Islam itself have enough Independent proofs. only real seeker is needed.

        "Meanwhile Muhammad was illiterate so how would he know?"
        by revelation from God.
        God has absolute knowledge of all things.
      • Jul 14 2011: sorry threads are long I repeat here:
        Dear Elam,
        "1) Moses is not even identified as a prophet in the Bible."
        I am not professional at bible so I ask well versed Christians to engage this.
        I think this user is well versed in Bible:
        http://www.ted.com/profiles/839620
        Please read his comments here:
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/3181/islam_beliefs_christianity_b.html
        Also please look:
        http://bible.org/seriespage/moses-premiere-prophet
        Also consider today scriptures are not 100% original

        "Jesus was a prophet but his message is opposite to Muhammad's"
        I am sure this is apparently. Please say some example to solve them.

        Koran has many stories of prophets. I think 25 prophet.


        "Muhammad was the only one who heard his revelations "
        yes like Jesus and Moses (PBUT)

        "Furthermore Muhammad was a known liar "
        Oh! This is 100% false. Historical evidence? He became prophet at age 40. before it he was very very respected and was famous for his honesty and trusteeship. There was no bank and when people going travel he kept their gold and monies to they back. He was famous for honesty.

        "counseled his followers to lie for his personal benefit."
        what??!! Evidence?
        Personal benefit?
        Lie in Islam is allowed only in 3 special case and none is personal benefit.

        "He committed lying, stealing and murder on behalf of his God and said it was okay because the ends justify the means."
        sorry. your brain is washed about him. All is false. Please explain them with some proof. You are brainwashed or at least misunderstanding.

        "why should I rationally believe the Qur'an's account of events, which contradicts the Bible's? "
        again it needs research. Contradictions are apparently. And also some false is mixed Bible.
        Please say one example. I think you have some beliefs with no proof.

        "pay the money so the Messenger can become rich and powerful"
        100% false. Prophet did not ask money from people.
        http://tanzil.net/#11:51
        Prophet only asked one wage:
        http://tanzil.net/#42:23
        http://en.wikipedia.
        • Jul 15 2011: SR - Hi,
          I think Thomas Jones has made a very good point. You have your faith based point of view and feel you have all the answers or at least all the answers can be found to explain Islam's scriptures which many see as horrific. I have been getting an improved perspective of Islam as we discuss the issues. There have been many valid Qur'anic quotes presented in this forum that point to an extremely violent and negative point of view as far as doing good for humanity goes. There have also been some very beautiful ones brought forth that can inspire people like you to obtain a lot of good.

          If you have never really seriously read someone Else's scriptures giving them the credit they deserve and working to understand their point of view, then you will stay with your beliefs and not know any different.

          I'm trying not to do that. That is why I gave Islam a chance and read the Qur'an. For me, it doesn't work because of the preponderance of negative stuff. Flat out, I don't believe it. This religion rose up off the back of the Jewish religion changing the message that was there and has absolutely nothing to stand its' claim on. Judaism on the other hand wrote it's own history which is largely verified by historical events in other countries of the time. Islam began with Muhammad in 610. There appears to be no evidence to indicate that 'Islam' or 'Muslim' even existed as terms or concepts around the time of Jesus and further back. To suggest this is to suggest deception on a world conspiracy level. Quite frankly impossible, more than impossible. Believing this stuff is being brain washed.

          Let me ask you a question: If the Muslim religion was so great even way back in Noah's day, why is there no mention of it in the Persian ancient history? Or the Greek?

          Between you and me, I think Islam is trying to deceive us SR. Yet I see you as someone doing good. Only problem what is good for human. You can surrender to Love but you cannot be in submission to it.
      • Jul 14 2011: Prophet only asked one wage:
        http://tanzil.net/#42:23
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        Can you prove prophet only one time asked money for himself. Prophet married to a highly rich trader woman and they spent all their money in way of Islam to became poor. Prophet always was poor. And said:
        "poverty is my honor"
        Yes Islam asked giving money to poor people but not to prophet.
        I am sorry you do not know prophet and are speaking about it. So sorry.
        He was poor. Very poor.
        His home was a simple four wall with roof by leafs that rain came inside home. With only a cloth as door.
        His cloth was cheapest and food was very simple.
        Please study more and more.
        http://www.shiamultimedia.com/englishbooks.html

        People Kiss black stone themselves. Not Islam rule. Only 7 times turning around Kaaba (Hajj) one time in all life is rule.

        God said Ibrahim raised up foundations of kaaba. ( not built). It was repairing not new build.
        Did you know only representative of God (prophet of Imam) can place black stone in Kaaba (when repairs) unless it falls down. This is recorded in history times that only http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles could place black stone that not fall.

        Hajj (going ro Kaaba) is a special travel and has many facts. Its long.

        Also ZamZam water in mecca is amazing water.
        http://www.masaru-emoto.net/


        "Why did Abraham cross 900 miles of desert to arrive in the middle of no where and build the Ka'aba if the promised land was Israel?"
        it was Intend of God!
        Promised land was for a special time for a special people. Not for ever.

        What you mean by Quasay?

        Ar-Rahman (merciful) is one name of God. God has many names 99 of them mentioned in Koran:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Islam
        Actually each name representates one attribute of one God.
        Yahweh is name of God in Hebrew language. But same God.
        Allah is name Al-Rahman is attribute.
        For example your name is Elam and you have some attributes like mercyful, kind,…
        Actual
      • Jul 14 2011: For example your name is Elam and you have some attributes like mercyful, kind,…
        Actually each name of God is one rule of God and names are for knowing God more and more. Each name has ocean of knowledge.
        Allah is name. then human asks. What is Allah? Then names are for knowing God.
        Names depict character of God.

        "The only explanation you have given is that the Bible was changed?"
        Please be paitient to read my reply and do not prejudice.

        I am happy when I see firing lots of questions. This is my enjoy.
        But I hope some researcher ask me. Not who do not read my replies and has dogma.

        "He needs his ego stroked so he created us puny humans for one purpose only, to worship him? "
        God said 3 reason for crating human. I have explained this many times in TED.
        They are actually one goal but in 3 level. The main goal of God for creating human is:
        "God Intended to be known"
        So God created human to know God. And created all things for needs and train of human. The entity of God can not be known. God has 4 zone of knowing. The zones 1,2,3 are only and only for God alone and no one can enter those zones. Only the zone 4 can be known and it is attributes of. So human should know attributes of God to can know God using attributes. So God created one good per each attribute. But Good without opposite has no meaning. For example Hot has no meaning when there is no cold and so on. So God created one evil per each good. For example "honesty and lie". There are military of Goods and military of evils.
        The verse you say are homeworks for human to be prapare to know God. (pray and worship are like homeworks)
        The first book here is useful:
        http://www.shiamultimedia.com/englishbooks1.html

        I agree you about prophets. God created wisdom to human know God using it. And prophets are something like cheats in a exam. For guiding human.

        "build a religion so he could get rich"
        Muhammad (PBUH) was poor in his life. Study it please.
        He did not marry when he was young. (for povetry). And he ha
      • Jul 14 2011: And he had only one young woman. His first wife was not young. He had 9 marriage with order of God and they were not young and each was for a special political or educational reason and it was by order of God and only for prophet. Please do not prejudice before research.He had power but did not abuse it. He was poor.

        " Muhammad brought a completely different message "
        example? I am sure they are misunderstandings of Koran or deviations in scriptures.

        I have read bible (not perfect) and I know now there are different versions of bible. Existing different versions proves changing.

        "I simply love your interpretation of God."
        I try to do not interpret Koran by myself. What I say are quotes from :
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        But still I have my personal errors and evils.
        My evils are more than my goods.

        "Please provide at least a link. "
        I am sorry. I had a misunderstanding of you. The family tree of Muhammad (PBUH) exists but not to very past. I agree you. Historically there is no evidence. This is a sample:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_Muhammad
        But this is not complete. Arabic versions show some older fathers. But not until Ismael. I agree you. This is in Koran.

        I did not understand you about Isaac. Sorry. Plz simplify.
        But Abraham wanted to scarify his son Ismael not Isaac. Isaac was
        Abraham did not have only Isaac. But Ismael was the other son of Abrahim and Ismael is the father of Arabs and as Jews because of jealousy and enormity to Arabs hide truth about Ismael. Isaac is father of Jews. And Jews want to the honor of scarify be for their father.
        Also Torah says the scarify is for Ismael. You know Ismael was first son and Isaac born later and Isaac lived with Ismael untill death of Ismael. But Torah says:
        "scarify your ONLY son." but who is only son? Jews changed Torah and wrote Isaac instead of Ismael. But Isaac never was ONLY son.
        Only son is Ismael. Not Isaac. (I know Torah reference but in Persian. need?)
      • Jul 14 2011: Dear iqbal,
        "real prophet - spread peace even to your enemies. Committed to spread God's message by sacrificing his own life. Gives importance to spiritual life.
        result :produces many saints."
        this is true about Muhammad (PBUH).

        Your information about Muhammad (PBUH) is very little. I ask you more research.
        The root of word Islam is selm which is peace.

        Please reply:
        If you are a prophet and you have absolute knowledge and you want to spread peace but a cruel man block and jail you to you can not communicate people and you can not talk even one of people? You can talk Only your wife and you both are blocked from any contact to people. what you do? You have no way to communicate people unless kill that cruel man.
        Please reply.
        Also please what is your definition of peace. If peace is not possible unless you first do a war what you do? And If you do not war the peace will never appear.

        Muhammad (PBUH) did not marry to enjoy. They were orders of God.
        1- He did not marry when he was young
        2- His first wife was not young
        3- Until death of his first wife he did not had any other wife.
        4- When his wife died he was old.
        5- He has 9 marriage with only one young and other aged widows
        6- Each marrage has special reason and story. Political and cultural and educational
        How this is only for enjoy?!
        he was a poor man while had greater power. And was extreme spiritual.
        Many? He produced Many many many saints
      • Jul 14 2011: Dear Elam,
        "God is love. "
        What you mean? Only this? God has no rule? No Hell? No worship?
        Only God is love and finish?

        "we came from love"
        What you mean? We came from our mother.

        "God is love"
        God created love but itself is not Love but religion is Love.
        Obeying God is Loving God. How you love some one while disobey him?
        Saying only God is Love is justifying disobeying God.

        "How is it possible for God to counsel us to kill other members of his creation if they don't believe what we do? "
        God did say such thing. Please do not misquote Koran.

        "How is it possible for God to counsel us to “curse” our fellow members of creation, God's creation?"
        When God said this?
        Please leave propaganda of TV against Muslims.
        Did you here about "news of the world" and the emperor of media?

        Please do not decide so quick about Allah and Muhammad (PBUH) this is risky.
        • Jul 15 2011: SR - you have many questions about love.

          Here is part of a Surah from the Bible written by the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians. Paul was the guy who really got Christianity off the ground. And he didn't have to kill anybody to do it. He simply followed the teachings of Jesus.

          This small portion of one Surah beats anything and everything in the Qur'an.

          The opening line is even prophetic, as Muhammad, claimed to have spoken for angels and to have received his message as a clanging bell: 1 Corinthians 1-8 "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong, a clanging cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous. Love does not brag and is not arrogant; it does not act unbecomingly. Love does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails; but whether there be prophesies, they shall be done away with; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

          It is not knowledge that can save mankind, it is only love. It is not threats of Allah torturing us in Hell, not Fear nor Submission nor virgins in paradise that will bring us to God. It is Love: nothing more, nothing less.

          Then, 1 John 4:16 ..."God is love, and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him." 4:18 "There is no FEAR in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He that FEARS is not made perfect in love."

          God is a concept not a person.
        • Jul 15 2011: SR -

          Me: "How is it possible for God to counsel us to kill other members of his creation if they don't believe what we do? "
          You: "God did say such thing. Please do not misquote Koran." Allah said this many times.

          example - Qur'an 5:33 "The recompense for those who fight against Allah and His Messenger and are mischief-makers in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

          Me: "How is it possible for God to counsel us to “curse” our fellow members of creation, God's creation?"
          You: "When God said this?
          Please leave propaganda of TV against Muslims."

          For your reading pleasure we have:

          Qur'an 4:93 ''And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and CURSE him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.''

          I got that quote from J Ali. Please read the Qur'an and stop lying.
      • Jul 14 2011: "proof is Koran."
        I hope one day you learn talking serious and rational.

        "I don't have any more respect for Koran."
        irrelevant and not important for me.

        "read about Jesus."
        he had no chance to fight against Roman empire. if he had min. power Indeed he did. also I am not sure he had no fight against his enemies.
        I agree with peace. but some times there is no way unless fight unless you are dead.
        defend is a rational response. but Indian culture specially Hinduism or Buddhism has not such thing named defense and history showed they do not show any response again attacks and stand and look being killed.

        "even Mohammad had an eye on its back."
        sorry i did not understand this. but we kill and eat cows. and do not consider them God.

        RESPECT OTHERS BELIEFS TO OTHERS RESPECT YOUR BELIEFS.
      • Jul 15 2011: Elam - Hi,

        "You have your faith based point of view and feel you have all the answers "
        Please not accusing other side to dogma does not prove anything.
        This is knowledge of Koran. Not me. I am nothing.


        "point to an extremely violent and negative point of view"
        Agree. But if some one believe in God and know the exact meaning of them and does not misinterpret them they are not negative.
        Also cutting an sick organ of body seems negative at first look.

        I have read someone Else's scriptures but I am not professional In them.

        Arabs of tribal Arabia could not write or read how could make such religion by changing Judaism?
        Muhammad did not write anything in his life. He was uneducated and had a donkey.

        You have high knowledge about Judaism and little knowledge about Islam and this causes you make wrong concludes about isalm.

        "indicate that 'Islam' or 'Muslim' even existed as terms or concepts around the time of Jesus and further back. "
        Oh My God! Do you know what is language? Please look their translates in other languages.

        "a world conspiracy level"
        I believe this. Only look at news about media emperor and its "the news of the world"

        "why is there no mention of it in the Persian ancient history?"
        Please note to dates. When Islam entered Iran? History is for past. Nit future.

        "Between you and me, I think Islam is trying to deceive us SR"
        Islam wants to Guide us to divine life. But we ourselves deceive ourselves to enjoy short life of world.

        "Only problem what is good for human."
        please first say what is "good" itself?

        Good and bad are relative. Bad can simply become good by changing beliefs of people.

        By me good is "what God want to we do or think" and evil is "disobeying God" and all rules of God are defined in Koran.
        • Jul 15 2011: SR -

          You say: "Arabs of tribal Arabia could not write or read how could make such religion by changing Judaism?
          Muhammad did not write anything in his life. He was uneducated and had a donkey."

          Exactly! and that is why he had to change the Judeo scripture in order for it to fit his simplistic personal agenda (and justified what he was doing) He could not have duplicated it and confirmed it's message even if he wanted to.

          Why do you believe the Arabs instead of the Jews? I advise you step out of Islam and open your mind to a reality that is not based on deceit.

          Me: "Only problem what is good for human."

          You: "please first say what is "good" itself?

          Good and bad are relative. Bad can simply become good by changing beliefs of people."

          What is 'good for humanity' is what helps us move forward in such a manner that we can reach our full potential, allow us to love and be loved, create positive societies that support one another and not do negative and destructive things.

          Everyone wants to be loved. Even the most hateful killer wants to be loved. We should seek to love our brethren, and you don't do that by separating 'Us' from 'Them'. When you divide the world into 2 classes, Muslims and Non-Muslims, Christians and Non-Christians you have created separation among people and separation from God.

          I agree with the following posted by a fellow on TED and you gave me the link but unfortunately I did not copy his name and cannot find the original conversation so I cannot give him the credit by name:

          ' "are the Muslim God & the Christian God are the same?"
          They have the same base, yes. But are they the same God? Hmm... maybe... if God has changed his mind on a lot of questions between the Bible and the Quran, which would make him fallible, which would contradict both the Bible and Quran."

          If God is God and has message for all people then his message must be consistent. It is deception to believe that the Bible had the same message as the Qur'an, Ever.
        • Jul 18 2011: SR - Hi, I am getting behind in our conversation.

          Me: "point to an extremely violent and negative point of view"
          You: Agree. But if some one believe in God and know the exact meaning of them and does not misinterpret them they are not negative.

          Jesus said, "except that you become as a child, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." To me this means that the message of God must be simple. It must have a simple element in it at its' core that even a child naturally connects with. Therefor if scripture requires a staggering amount of reasoning to conclude that it actually means something different than what is written, then a) it is pointless, and b) it is not the truth.

          You: "You have high knowledge about Judaism and little knowledge about Islam and this causes you make wrong concludes about isalm" Maybe, but even if I don't understand Islam well, I do understand its basic principles enough to decide to follow it if I thought it was on the right path.

          Me: "There is nothing to indicate that 'Islam' or 'Muslim' even existed as terms or concepts around the time of Jesus and further back. " Again SR, if you find this statement incorrect the point me something that does. Something that was not written after 610 AD. Back to Noah is a long way. That is before the rise of civilization as we know it today so there should be lots of artifacts etc. commemorating the monotheistic faith of Islam from then right through the time of Jesus to Muhammad. Especially if Islam existed throughout the time between Abraham and after Jesus to 150 AD.
      • Jul 16 2011: Dear Elam,
        I agree your verse about love.
        I have problem with this:
        God is love!
        I agree love and know the value of Love. But I disagree God is love. Love is a creature of God. Love is like a magnet absorbing human to God.

        "God is a concept not a person. "
        Yes agree. But I heard Christians believe God is a man In sky.

        "Qur'an 5:33 "The recompense for those who fight against Allah and His Messenger "
        so not kill messengers to Muslims not fight you.
        What you do if one kill your family? You sit and watch?

        "Qur'an 4:93 ''And whoever kills a believer intentionally"
        لعن in this verse means being sans mercy of God although is translated curse. And this is kind of punish.
        God is Just and this and a Just God punishes and rewards based on defined rules.
        By curse I thought you mean abusive.

        "Exactly! and that is why he had to change the Judeo scripture in order for it to fit his simplistic personal agenda"
        do you have any proof for this scenario?
        why some Jews immigrated to a place near Mecca (bani nazir village if I am correct) because their books predicted new messenger appearing in mecca?
        also he was uneducated how he could copy from jew books?
        if you know the context of Arab of that time you do not say this scenario.

        "Why do you believe the Arabs instead of the Jews?"
        I only believe wisdom and logic and proof and evidence. not arab not jew.
        I am fan of who has proof and evidence. jew or arab. do you hate arabs?

        "What is 'good for humanity' is what helps us move forward in such a manner that we can reach our full potential"
        what is moving forward? how you ensure you are not going back and you think you go forward?
        what is potential? do you know potential powers of soul?
        what is positive and negative?
        who defines them. each human has different definition of positive and negative. also believing or not believing in after life changed defines.
        how who has limited knowledge can decide for others?
        http://tanzil.net/#2:216
        • Jul 18 2011: SR -
          Me: "God is a concept not a person. "
          You: "Yes agree. But I heard Christians believe God is a man In sky."

          Oh ya..., and I heard Muslims believe God is something/someone that is going to drag us into Hell and torture us there if we don't follow his instructions.

          Most Christians believe, I think, that God dwells inside us, in our hearts etc, as such is the purpose of the Holy Spirit brought to us by Jesus.

          If God is omniscient and created all the world then God is not a being separate from us. God is in us and we are in God. We are part of God's creation and God's creation is part of this omniscient God. If all the world was created, it could only have been done through positive energy (the ultimate of which is Love), otherwise we would not have survived. The Earth would never have become suitable for life if the Universe was created from negative energy. So it seems to me, the closest we can get to God is to Love.

          I don't see the Islamic God as being a good representative of Love. He is a nasty bugger. By the way, Yahweh isn't so nice sometimes either, but at least he provided for an intercessor to bring us a message that would provide a bridge between us imperfect humans and perfect God.

          Jesus brought a message of Love which is available to all mankind. In this context that makes sense. Muhammad brought a message of separation, always Muslims fighting non Muslims.
          Tell me how Muslims attacking and murdering the Qurayza people, or the people of Kaybar (who were just minding their own business) was an expression of Love.
          Tell me how Muslim bandits attacking and robbing the merchant caravans of the Quraysh (who were just minding their own business) was an expression of Love.
          Tell me how Allah dragging infidels into Hell and torturing them there inflicting great pain, where the will never get out nor be forgiven, is an expression of love.

          To me the Islamic scriptures don't make sense. They are not the word of an all knowing, all wise loving God.
        • Jul 18 2011: SR - Everyone has limited knowledge and no one is perfect. Otherwise they would be God.
        • Jul 18 2011: SR -
          Me: "Why do you believe the Arabs instead of the Jews?"

          You: "I only believe wisdom and logic and proof and evidence. not arab not jew.
          I am fan of who has proof and evidence. jew or arab. do you hate arabs?"

          Likewise. That's why I believe the Jewish version of events. It doesn't require you to believe in their God in order to accept it's historical accuracy. You can do so logically.

          "Do I hate Arabs?' Please, your question hurts me. I do not hate Arabs. That is nonsense to me. Everyone is an individual before they belong to any group, ethnic, national, spiritual or what ever. I am sorry if I gave you that impression. Sometimes I take a position and try to extrapolate it to its ultimate extent, just to see where it leads. This helps me decide if it is good for me or not. It's just my nature.

          I am not a Jew, nor am I a Christian, nor am I an Arab, nor am I an Atheist. I'm just trying to take an independent look at the Abrahamic religions (and some others) to see what I get.

          I'm not convinced that there is an all knowing creator of the Universe. But i see there is reality beyond our physical observance and I see Spiritual thought as central to our humanity, so I am interested in what the great spiritual thinkers are presenting to us.

          At this point I see Islam as the poorest of all attempts to define spiritual reality.
      • Jul 16 2011: we do not class muslims and non muslims.
        we class who accept logic and proof and who not accept.
        Islam is based on peace and talk and proof and evidence. and war is the final solution and only against who block voice of islam from being heard by people. not for any non muslims. non muslims are respected. also do not mix wars of prophet and wars of emperors after prophet for worldly greed in the name of Islam.

        God never changes mind.
        I wonder why you not want accept changes made in scripture during history?
        Jews changed scriptures piece of cake and today large media is in their control and feed think of people.
        • Jul 18 2011: SR -
          You: " wonder why you not want accept changes made in scripture during history?
          Jews changed scriptures piece of cake and today large media is in their control and feed think of people."

          I do accept that the Bible has changed, but not to the extent that it would have had the same message as the Qur'an. There is no evidence of this. The Bible does not claim to be the exact word of God, other than the (10) commandments given to Moses. The Bible was written by Jewish scribes depicting their history as it happened along with some inspirational insights into their God and his involvement in the events. They provided prophesies etc.

          Muhammad changed the Judeo/Christian scriptures, piece of cake and today a large media in in Islamic control and feed the people his lies. His divergent message has no context or historical backing. Just out of the blue, claimed his message was based on those scriptures. The Qur'an is not flawless. Only if you believe it first, then deny/revise the facts, can anyone actually think this is true.

          Forget the Bible, forget the Qur'an. Read the history of the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans. How can Muhammad's version be true, and everyone else, including those who have no stake in the matter, be false?

          Open your mind, stop being so fixated on the perspective given to you only through the Islamic world. The truth will set you free.

          Start by coming to visit me in Canada. This is easy if you have the money. Fly into the city of Vancouver, I will pick you up at the airport, you can stay with me for a couple of weeks. I will provide for you while you are here. You can meet some of my friends, enjoy a different space. No one will try to harm you or change what you think. Just hang out with us and enjoy life. Perhaps you will come back and decide to stay, live amongst us, enrich our lives through your culture and insights. You are welcome. This is a serious invitation.
        • Jul 18 2011: SR -
          you say: "we class who accept logic and proof and who not accept." But the acceptable logic is that which complies with the Qur'an, ONLY.

          Let's try some logic that can apply to anyone.

          You say, "but today Koran is 100% what exited from mouth of Muhammad (PBUH)"

          But it is 100% different than what Jesus had to say, so we're not talking about a little deviation here and there. You're suggesting a complete change of spiritual concepts. This is not possible if Yahweh and Allah are the same God. So the premise is false.

          Even if every word was changed in the Bible and it is nothing like what it used to be. I like it better than the Qur'an. It does a much better job (especially the New Covenant) of depicting the Loving, Forgiving, and Merciful nature of God and what core values we can use to access God, than does the Qur'an.

          It is absurd to believe that more than a thousand years before Muhammad emerged in Arabia that Jewish scribes purposely altered the whole of their scriptures just to foil him.
          Qur'an 2:40 "O Children of Israel, remember the favors I bestowed on you. So keep My Covenant so that I fulfil your covenant. Fear Me. And believe in what I sent down, confirming and verifying the Scripture which you possess already." This reconfirms that Islam is irrational. Q cannot verify or confirm B if Q condemns and contradicts B. Further, if B is true and Q opposes B, then Q must be false. And again Muhammad refers to the Torah which the Jews 'possessed' in his day 610 – 632 AD which is the same one we have today.
          Allah doesn't understand the concept of the Messiah; Proof: Qur'an 4:171 "O people of the Book (Christians), do not be fanatical in your faith, and say nothing but the truth about Allah. The Messiah who is Isa (Jesus), son of Mariam, was only a messenger of Allah, nothing more. By saying that "Jesus" was the "Messiah," Allah annihilated himself. If Jesus was the Messiah, then he is God, and Allah is not.

          The Messiah is central the entire Bible.
    • Jul 8 2011: J Ali con't - Logic tells us, if the Qur'an was the word of an all knowing God it would have no mistakes. But when we look close, it has mistakes.

      Qur'an 5:20 "Remember, Moses said to his people: 'O my people! Call in remembrance the favor of Allah unto you, when He PRODUCED [past tense]prophets among you and APPOINTED [past tense] kings for you...”

      The first Jewish prophet wouldn't write and the first Jewish king wouldn't reign for another 400 years so Moses could not have said what Allah attributes to him in this verse.

      Of course this is all explained but only if you understand the Qur'an in the “right” way. And of course you have to start with the premise that everything it says is true and any facts that contradict it require the facts to change or some alternate interpretation of the Qur'an. I'm sure you can find that we who approach the subject from outside of the influence of Islam find this silly.

      The Qur'an says that it confirms the Torah and Gospels and that Jesus was a prophet but offers virtually nothing about what he might have said. How do you know what his message was if all you read is the Islamic scriptures? If Christians want to know what Moses said, they read the Torah. If Jesus and Muhammad were on the same team they should have the same message. How can we find out what Jesus said since there is nothing in the Qur'an to fill us in? Right we must go to the Gospels where his life is documented in the context of history and in meticulous detail. And there we find his message is opposite to Muhammad’s.

      The best SR can do is say that the Bible is not the real Bible, the real one would have the same message as the Qur'an, once again all independent information points to that position being false.

      You have done nothing to convince me that Allah is an all knowing God who created the universe. All languages can be translated so stop hiding from the truth.
      • Jul 9 2011: "and APPOINTED [past tense] kings for you...” "
        the correct translate is: and APPOINTED you the kings.

        "The first Jewish prophet wouldn't write"
        who said first Jewish prophet was writing?!

        "the first Jewish king wouldn't reign for another 400 "
        some one asked this question (meaning of ملوک (King) in this verse) from prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and prophet replied:
        "n children of Israel when some one had wife and servant and roadster was called ملک (King)."

        ملک is not necessarily king of country. its general
        please read this:
        http://goo.gl/Q8w7d

        "If Christians want to know what Moses said, they read the Torah."
        also Muslims. but not deviated Torah.
        and please note each prophet knows the exact original version of all books before himself word by word. we prefer to learn Torah from Muhammad (PBUH) while still we read and research on today Torah (partially deviated) but we not accept anything written in today partially deviated Torah.

        "The best SR can do is say that the Bible is not the real Bible, the real one would have the same message as the Qur'an, once again all independent information points to that position being false."
        please do not misquote me before I speak. if you have such ability to understand people before they talk so why you are here on TED?!
        the best I can say is:
        if you do ENOUGH research on Bible and Torah you will find.
        SEEKER IS FINDER.
        but who blindly follow a liar writer who is enemy of Islam and Koran it is not called SEEKING.

        "You have done nothing to convince me that Allah is an all knowing God who created the universe."
        this is not simple and needs your interest and research but has very very delusions fruits.

        "All languages can be translated so stop hiding from the truth."
        when you can simple check in internet or arabic dics or ask an Arab friend of specialist why we should give you false information about Arabic language?
        if so this is best way to disprove us.
        Arabic language is not secret military information that you can not access.
        • Jul 18 2011: SR -
          Me: "If Christians want to know what Moses said, they read the Torah."

          You: "also Muslims. but not deviated Torah.
          and please note each prophet knows the exact original version of all books before himself word by word. we prefer to learn Torah from Muhammad (PBUH) while still we read and research on today Torah (partially deviated) but we not accept anything written in today partially deviated Torah."

          Please point me to a copy of the un-deviated Torah. The Septaugint was translated from Hebrew into Greek around 250 B.C. The Dead Seas Scrolls are from a similar time. What book do you suppose Jesus had and referred to in 30 AD. When he quotes something from the Torah and we go to the manuscripts of his time we find that quote. These Torahs could not have been changed in 150 AD as you suggest since they were written before that and we still have them today.

          SR - the conspiracy required to wipe out and alter all written material (which clearly didn't happen, Re: Septaugint, Dead Sea Scrolls) and all artifacts and monuments from all civilizations etc. and replace all traces of the Islamic religion which was supposed to have been prevalent since the time of Noah, is impossible, and obviously didn't happen.
      • Jul 20 2011: Dear Elam,
        "that is going to drag us into Hell and torture us there if we don't follow his instructions."
        yes who know God but disobey him.

        "Most Christians believe, I think, that God dwells inside us"
        Heart (soul) of human is potentially home of God. But only enter pure clean home. (no evil in the heart)

        "If God is omniscient and created all the world then God is not a being separate from us."
        Yes but God is not material.
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/50:16

        "God's creation is part of this omniscient God."
        part is for material and limited think. Unlimited has no part.
        http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/1.htm

        "If all the world was created, it could only have been done through positive energy"
        what is positive energy? Energy is defined as ability of doing work. Define positive energy please.
        I can not understand your scenario about Love.

        "God as being a good representative of Love"
        God is not representative of anything . But attributes of God are representative of God. Why God should be responsible to Love?

        "Jesus brought a message of Love"
        All messengers bring message of God which includes different things including "who love God, God love him"

        "always Muslims fighting non Muslims. "
        Disagree.
        Example:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
        You do not understand Islam fights who. Not non muslims.

        "Qurayza people, or the people of Kaybar (who were just minding their own business)"
        You do not know history and you are doing prejudice. Jews were free but themselves started the war. It was not for their religion. Please first study history. Not any jew is good. Also jew can have legal crime.
        Many jews lived with prophet in peace. Only some had problems (not for religion but political)

        "Tell me how Muslim bandits attacking and robbing the merchant caravans of the Quraysh"
        Muslims were isolated and under sanction out of city by Arab Kings and even did not have food. If they did not attack they died for food.

        You do not know what Is Love. God itself is not Love.
        • Jul 23 2011: SR - Me: "Most Christians believe, I think, that God dwells inside us"

          You: "Heart (soul) of human is potentially home of God. But only enter pure clean home. (no evil in the heart)" Who do you know that is perfect, totally pure with no bad in them?

          Me: "If God is omniscient and created all the world then God is not a being separate from us."
          You: "Yes but God is not material. http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/1.htm " Agreed. Nice link BTW, beautifully said except the propensity of Allah to claim that he put rocks/mountains on the earth to stabilize it seems out of place.

          Positive energy; I'm going with that which produces or is intended to produce good. What is good? That which benefits everything and everyone.

          I don't see why God needs us to love him/her in order for him/her to love us. It makes sense that God would love us despite out faults, and that it is not conditional on our loving him. God does not need our love, it is us that needs his love, which we can only get if it is available. If he holds out on us until we love him first, it is not a very good plan for our salvation.

          You, "God is not representative of anything" I disagree, God is representative of everything, it is all his.

          you say, "Why God should be responsible to Love? " Well as above, it is our only hope of salvation. Love is the only thing that could solve all human problems. Is God's hatred or indifference going to bring about our salvation? Likewise solve our problems with hatred or indifference?

          Me; "always Muslims fighting non Muslims. "
          You: "Disagree.
          Example:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews " Okay, sorry. Not well spoken by me.

          you: "You do not know history and you are doing prejudice. Jews were free but themselves started the war." Please show me a Hadith or historical account that shows the Jews struck the first blow had an army or were even remotely interested in fighting the Muslims in either Qurayza or Khaybar.
      • Jul 20 2011: You do not know what Is Love. God itself is not Love. But God created Love.

        "That's why I believe the Jewish version of events"
        Please do not have dogma and first study Islam correct and then decide.

        "At this point I see Islam as the poorest of all attempts to define spiritual reality. "
        You have a false Image of Islam from propaganda of enemies of Islam.

        "The Bible does not claim to be the exact word of God, other than the (10) commandments given to Moses."
        correct. we call them Torah. What about Jesus (PBUH)? What he was given? We call what he was given Bible but not available today.


        "The Bible was written by Jewish scribes depicting their history as it happened along with some inspirational insights into their God and his involvement in the events. They provided prophesies etc."
        Agree and then distributed trough church. But this not mean Jesus (PBUH) himself not given anything from God.

        "Muhammad changed the Judeo/Christian scriptures, piece of cake"
        This is wrong and impossible. Muhammad was uneducated and not wrote anything in his life.
        If you read history of Islam well you understand. What you say mostly is similar to propaganda and is not your own research.

        "The Qur'an is not flawless. "
        Prove one.

        "Forget the Bible, forget the Qur'an. "
        Then what if Hell existed after our death? Can you save from Hell?

        "How can Muhammad's version be true, and everyone else, including those who have no stake in the matter, be false? "
        This is your Image. More research more similar.

        Open your mind, stop being so fixated on the perspective given to you only through the Jewish and freemasonry world.

        "This is a serious invitation."
        Much thanks. I consider it but I can not now. I have good Iranian friends in Vancouver.
        Also I seriously Invite you to Iran and I provide any help to you while you are here.


        "But the acceptable logic is that which complies with the Qur'an"
        The fact is that Koran is fact not fact is Koran. We accept proof and evidence not propaganda.

        "
        • Jul 23 2011: SR -
          you say, "What about Jesus (PBUH)? What he was given? We call what he was given Bible but not available today. " Jesus was not given anything in terms of a message. He claimed to be the son of God and therefore God, bringing us the message of God right from the horses mouth. This was considered blasphemy, hence he was put on trial and crucified. He said a bunch of interesting things while he was here. Ever read them? Don't bother trying to get it from Islamic sources, they will be prejudiced, they know nothing about Jesus.

          Me: "The Qur'an is not flawless. "
          You: "Prove one." Many of the Qur'an's mistakes have been pointed out to you. No point, you won't accept the truth or valid reasoning.

          You keep accusing me of being influenced by propaganda. You too are influenced by propaganda. Everyone is. We look for truth but must first find our way out of our influences and education. Is there other ways of looking at it? I think so. It's too bad we have a different view of God but this in not a requirement of our friendship as far as I'm concerned. So maybe some day we will meet and 'the clear light in me will see the clear light in you' and we will be friends knowing that we want to do good and we simply enjoy each other. Nemaste.
      • Jul 20 2011: "But it is 100% different than what Jesus had to say"
        Did you directly heard what he said?

        "You're suggesting a complete change of spiritual concepts. "
        no I study bible and many parts of Bible is like Koran. But some important parts is removed from bible.

        "This is not possible if Yahweh and Allah are the same God."
        You know little and you are at start of way. You should research until end of your life. Seeker is finder. Leave what you hear and yourself research.

        ". I like it better than the Qur'an"
        What God likes is better.
        Yes all love and not working is good and all like it. Who hate it? But no pain no gain. What God want is important not what you like. People like to be lazy and have easiest way.

        "that Jewish scribes purposely altered the whole of their scriptures just to foil him. "
        Sorry what means?

        "And again Muhammad refers to the Torah"
        by Torah Koran means what only Moses (PBUH) was given and today is not easily found. Jews hide original version from people.

        "If Jesus was the Messiah, then he is God, and Allah is not."
        do you know the meaning of messiah?
        Messiah is not God. This word literally is related to "touch" and has special meaning and is name (attribute) of Jesus (PBUH) in Koran.

        "Please point me to a copy of the un-deviated Torah."
        in the today torah there is story of after death of Moses (PBUH). So this is one evidence it is not from Moses (PBUH) himself and is writer later.
        We accept only parts of scripture not conflicting Koran. Original bible perhaps can be found today but I am sure it is not easy. I can not show you today the original version of Torah. This is one reason God sent Koran.
        We do not rejects some parts of Torah only for conflicting Koran. Also some parts conflict with logic and rational think.

        I said 150 AD only for Bible. Not Torah.

        "the conspiracy required to wipe out and alter all written material (which clearly didn't happen"
        Not wipe out. But revisioning.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_%28neg
      • Jul 20 2011: "the conspiracy required to wipe out and alter all written material (which clearly didn't happen"
        Not wipe out. But revisioning.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_%28negationism%29

        "is impossible, and obviously didn't happen."
        It is relative. Not 100% impossible and not 100% possible.
        Also not obvious. Perhaps obvious for people who only use TV and popular media for learning and not go to library.


        Dear Elam,
        I respect your Interest and research in religion.
        this is your professional job of your personal interest?
      • Jul 20 2011: "Jesus said, "except that you become as a child, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." "
        please do not interpret sayings of Jesus (PBUH) without enough proof.
        It means the relation of you and God should be relation of a child and father. A child accept anything from father and obey father. It means you should not be proud against God. A child know his food and cloth and life and everything is from his father so respect his father.

        This is not about message of God. This is about how to behave to God.
        Please read the next verses of it.


        "I do understand its basic principles enough to decide to follow it if I thought it was on the right path."
        You even do not know its basics. You have misunderstanding of Islam. And I am sure you are heavily influenced from propaganda against Islam.

        "Especially if Islam existed throughout the time between Abraham and after Jesus to 150 AD."
        if Islam says all prophets had religion of Islam. It not means this ARABIC name should be found in past religions. Islam is by meaning. Not by name. Islam is arabic name and means obeying and submission to God. This is the core concept of All religions of God. But developed by sending new prophets and people who love world always deviated sayings of prophets. Because prophets are the highest danger for who use peoples are customers (in fact slaves) for their companies. And this is story of all history not only today. But they could not deviated Koran because God guaranteed protection of Koran.
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/15:9
      • Jul 23 2011: Dear Elam,
        "Who do you know that is perfect, totally pure with no bad in them?"
        Who obey God in all aspects of life and thinks.

        "Positive energy; I'm going with that which produces or is intended to produce good. "
        It is wisdom which is inside any human. Please note. Wisdom=ability of controlling "self" and not doing what "self " wants. Wisdom=ability of accepting advice. Wisdom= controlling self and not doing evil deeds and thinks.
        Also more knowledge makes wisdom more powerful.
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/2353/what_is_wisdom_and_can_wisdom.html
        Knowledge is base of wisdom. By wisdom human controls himself.
        Animals do not have wisdom.

        "What is good?"
        Good is relative. For example some say homosexual is good and some say evil.
        But in Islam obeying God is good and disobeying God is evil. God created each good/evil according to one of his attributes to using them God can be known. Knowledge is good and not knowing is bad. So with knowledge we know one attribute of God that God is absolute knowledge. Power is good and weak is bad so when we power that made universe we know the power of God and so on.

        "I don't see why God needs us to love him/her in order for him/her to love us."
        Love is for knowing God. Love of God is different of Love of human. Love of God means nearing God and knowing him and removing curtains between human and God and step by step meeting God.

        "God does not need our love'
        Yes. God not need anything unless is not God. But God Intended to be known and love is needed to human know God. God loves human and human loved God. No love no knowing God. First you should love something to start knowing it.

        "it is us that needs his love, which we can only get if it is available. '
        Agree.

        "If he holds out on us until we love him first, it is not a very good plan for our salvation."
        First God loved human by creating human and creating all inside the universe for human and sending prophets for guide of human. This is not enough for proving God loves huma
      • Jul 23 2011: "If he holds out on us until we love him first, it is not a very good plan for our salvation."
        First God loved human by creating human and creating all inside the universe for human and sending prophets for guide of human. This is not enough for proving God loves human?

        "You, "God is not representative of anything" I disagree, God is representative of everything, it is all his. "
        Yes God all the nature and universe is face of God. And we can know God by nature. But that saying can have some wrong interpret.

        "Love is the only thing that could solve all human problems."
        Agree. By loving God, we become like God and get power from God. But I disagree God itself is Love. God created Love but itself is not Love.
        Also:
        http://tanzil.net/#22:47
        God is not responsible to anyone "But Allah will never fail in His promise."

        Real problem of human is after death. Human never dies. Only change body. Human is soul mainly. Not body.

        "Okay, sorry. Not well spoken by me."
        I love your honesty and fair talk. You are different of others.

        "Please show me a Hadith or historical account that shows the Jews struck the first blow had an army or were even remotely interested in fighting the Muslims in either Qurayza or Khaybar."
        Please read this and if you needed more western reference let me know.
        http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/29.htm
        Please note:
        1- Untill death of prophet many Jews were living in city of prophet (Medina) with peace and there was no problem between jews and Muslims. Even a wonam Jew gave a poison food to prophet that it was the cause of death of prophet later. Prophet asked her why you did this: she said: I said myself if he is prophet of God the poison not kill him and if is fake prophet better to be killed. Prophet smiled and forgiven her. Many Jews were living with Muslims in peace.

        2- The Jews Khaybar had a peace contract with Muslims but Jews did not respected that contract and it was the cause of war.
      • Jul 23 2011: Dear Elam,
        "Jesus was not given anything in terms of a message. "
        Disagree. He received. Even if not available later. What is your proof?
        If can not prove at least not deny and say perhaps.

        "He claimed to be the son of God "
        He did not claim so. And even if did it is metaphor and should not be taken literally.

        "and therefore God"
        He never claimed this. Please show your proof and evidence.

        "bringing us the message of God right from the horses mouth. "
        Oh my God! The angel Gabriel is for revelation. Why horses? Please show evidence. Perhaps you are misquoting.

        "This was considered blasphemy, hence he was put on trial and crucified."
        Please watch this movie:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Messiah_%28Iranian_film%29

        Yes. I hear from here:
        http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/audio/?source=4&aid=28

        "they know nothing about Jesus."
        not be sure. Knowledge of prophet is from God.

        "Many of the Qur'an's mistakes have been pointed out to you. No point, you won't accept the truth or valid reasoning. "
        To be honest they had not enough proof.

        "You too are influenced by propaganda."
        I accept. Please explain me to know truth.

        'Is there other ways of looking at it?"
        The only way is research and research and research.
        Prophet Muhammad (PBUH):
        "seek knowledge from cradle to grave"

        "So maybe some day we will meet and 'the clear light in me will see the clear light in you' and we will be friends knowing that we want to do good and we simply enjoy each other. Nemaste."
        perhaps. if death let us and God wanted it. [God gets angry when some one tell: "I will do this in future" and do not say "if God wanted"]
        Also Internet can play the role.
        Also you are invited to Iran.

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