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proving Koran

is there any proof that show Koran not from human and is from God?
1- It was opposite of most scientific and nonscientific beliefs of people of 1400 years ago that leaded to wars between prophet and Arabs. So Koran was not copied. People had 360 God and stars were daughters of God and many more silly beliefs. I suggest study context of Arabia at that time.
2- Koran said earth is round
3- Koran said sun will turn off one day
4- Koran has many amazing numbers in words letters ,.. that makes many amazing facts.(more than accidental)
5- Koran says sun is moving
6- It is 1400 years Koran is shouting http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:88 and Koran has many enemies but no one claimed could. Many tried but it was not more than joke. (themselves accepted. Fact in history until now)
Koran said human can pass layers of skies and earth and can go to skies but needs some power. and even said human can control moon and sun and what are in skies:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/55:33
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/45:13

7- Koran describes the steps of growth of fetus in womb in 7 presise.
8- Koran appeared in city of Mekka that many conservative Jews and Christians also lived there and they had high power. Also many enemies of prophet among Arab all were trying to disprove and destroy new prophet. Koran may times claimed you can not make a book or a chapter like Koran. Indeed if they could they made a book similar to Koran against Koran to not cost for war. But there is not still any book similar Koran.
9- Koran was said during 23 years by prophet. You know the ideas of a writer changes over time. But Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict.
10- There is many facts in history many famous people in Arab wanted to destroy Koran but no one could.
11- There is no proved conflict in Koran with science.

they are only some facts about Koran.

**before referring to a verse please read it yourself and do not copy from invalid and biased links**

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    Jun 29 2011: SR the onus of proving the Quran (is from God) is on you. I have taken each claim 1 to 11 made by you above and shown that there are doubts about each of them.

    Let us take only claims 2, 5 and 6 and show how not only do these claims not prove the Quran but disprove it.

    Claim 2. Even if the Quran said the Earth is round, it in no way proves the Quran is from God.

    However if the Quran says the Earth is flat then it disproves that Quran could be from an all knowing God.

    The Greek mathematician and poet Eratosthenes, almost 1,000 years before Muhammad, not only figured out the world was round but also calculated the circumference of the earth and the tilt of the Earth's axis both with remarkable accuracy.

    He did this only by observations, reason and calculations, without the help of any God.

    I have shown you nowhere does the Quran directly say the Earth is round. In every verse where it mentions the shape of the Earth it uses some description of flatness.

    Your argument of Easts and Wests, are mere observations and from that you can only arrive at a round Earth through logical deductions which the Quran never makes.

    Claim 5 – “Koran says sun is moving”

    Quran 21:33 “It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its ROUNDED course.”

    This again is from observation where the Sun, Moon and Stars APPEAR to move in a CIRCULAR ORBIT around the Earth.

    Again NEVER ONCE does the Quran ever say the Earth is moving. Because then again it APPEARS to be still.

    Take also that the Quran says 18:86 “Until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, HE FOUND IT SET IN A SPRING OF MURKY WATER: “

    And 36:38 “And the sun which runs to ITS RESTING-PLACE…”

    This clearly shows that the Quran thinks the Sun moves in a circular orbit around the Earth and sets in the Earth at night (its RESTING place), EVERYTHING THAT IT APPEARS TO DO WITH THE NAKED EYE.

    Surely an all knowing God would know this was not true?
    • Jun 29 2011: "I have shown you nowhere does the Quran directly say the Earth is round. In every verse where it mentions the shape of the Earth it uses some description of flatness."
      I am sorry for you. you are strong head. its your misundrestanding of Koran. Koran says earth is round.
      another verse:
      http://tanzil.net/#39:5
      in a flat earth how:
      1- night is folded ON day and
      2- day of folded ON night?
      please explain. this is description of flat earth or round earth?
      also about easts and wests and also other verses.

      "Your argument of Easts and Wests, are mere observations and from that you can only arrive at a round Earth through logical deductions which the Quran never makes."
      you are playing with words.
      any kind of observe however it is possible only in a round earth.

      "deductions which the Quran never makes."
      who said Koran made deductions?
      Koran says the result. not need to deductions.
      it is clear that Koran says earth is round no need to deductions.
      it is important Koran says earth is flat or round.
      deductions is irrelevant.

      "Quran 21:33 “It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its ROUNDED course.”"
      show me the Arabic word for rounded in Koran.
      Koran says in they are moving (like a ship in ocean. not swimming) in a PATH.
      it is the path a plant or star moves in universe and not necessarily circular. but possibly circular. it is path. not circular orbit. you are misquoting Koran.

      "Again NEVER ONCE does the Quran ever say the Earth is moving. Because then again it APPEARS to be still."
      I am sorry for you. Koran has at least 469 saying about earth. did you research them all?
      http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%B6
      read these and do not claim what you do not know:
      Koran says earth is moving. example:
      http://tanzil.net/#77:25 (birth with tight wings and moving fast)
      http://tanzil.net/#27:88
      http://tanzil.net/#20:53
      http://tanzil.net/#67:15 (a camel walking docile and calm)
    • Jun 29 2011: "Take also that the Quran says 18:86 “Until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, HE FOUND IT SET IN A SPRING OF MURKY WATER: “"
      found it means APPARENTLY.
      how many times I should repeat? do not you understand meaning of FOUND IT?
      it is kind of saying address of a place (probably Azerbaijan)

      "And 36:38 “And the sun which runs to ITS RESTING-PLACE…”

      This clearly shows that the Quran thinks the Sun moves in a circular orbit around the Earth and sets in the Earth at night (its RESTING place), EVERYTHING THAT IT APPEARS TO DO WITH THE NAKED EYE."
      how resting place means circular orbit???!!!

      [this is my personal idea: there is two possibility about Big Bang:
      1- universe will expand for ever.
      2- one day universe stop expanding and then starts collapsing back.
      and I think in this verse God says the 2 will happen]


      I ask you do not interpret Koran as you like and do not make story about sun and resting at night.

      i do not know really what you are looking for?
      are you really seeking truth or you have other goal?
      this is not behaviour of who is seeking truth.

      I said many times Koran has many verses about earth and if some one really wants to know truth and know and communicate God through Koran and who is honest first independently researches those verses all and then honestly decides Koran says earth is flat or round and what Koran says about sun,...
      but who had disease in his heart quickly searches in Google and first link finds against Koran copies here without reading even one page of Koran.
      if you are really not seeking truth and have other goal please do not waste my time.
      I am seeking who are relay seeking truth. not who claiming are seeking truth. they are very rare.
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        Jun 29 2011: @ SR “if you are really not seeking truth and have other goal please do not waste my time. I am seeking who are relay seeking truth. not who claiming are seeking truth. they are very rare.”

        I am seeking the truth. Why do you say that I am not? Is your definition of truth that the Quran is from God? If you start off with that belief, then any evidence contrary to that belief you will reject.

        Is your claim Quran is from God a HYPOTHESIS or an AXIOM? If it is an AXIOM then there is no debate.

        However if it is a hypothesis then it should be examined like any hypothesis in science. We have accept or reject the hypothesis according to the evidence. Even if one evidence is against the hypothesis, the hypothesis has to be rejected.

        I have only quoted from the Quran and only taken the translations of the expert scholars of Arabic. If the translations are wrong then it is for you to tell me the correct translations of that verse.

        If you are refusing to believe the evidence written in the verses, then SR it is YOU who are not seeking the truth and not being honest. You are not being honest with yourself. You are not admitting the truth which you know in your heart of hearts is true.
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        Jun 29 2011: In reply to my "Again NEVER ONCE does the Quran ever say the Earth is moving. Because then again it APPEARS to be still." You have said:

        @ SR “I am sorry for you. Koran has at least 469 saying about earth. did you research them all?
        http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%B6

        1. Most of those verses that mention the Earth say nothing about the shape of the Earth and NONE of them say anything about it moving. For example the first verse says "Make not mischief on the earth"

        2. IF that statement of mine is wrong it is for YOU to tell me which verse tells us the Earth is moving, not for me to do research and then report back to you. It is your hypothesis that the Quran is true.

        3. You have given some verses which YOU CLAIM say the Earth is moving. Your claim is false. NONE of them say it is moving.

        77:25 “Have We not made the earth a container” – You have said “birth with tight wings and moving fast” where did you get that translation from? (What is moving fast? The Earth?)

        67:15 “It is He who made the earth tame for you - so walk among its slopes and eat of His provision” – You have said “a camel walking docile and calm” I don’t know where the camel comes in but clearly it is talking about men walking on the Earth not the Earth walking anywhere or moving. (Here is the Earth moving slow?)

        27:88 “And you see the mountains, thinking them rigid, while they will pass as the passing of clouds. [It is] the work of Allah, who perfected all things. Indeed, He is Acquainted with that which you do.” Nothing about the Earth moving

        20:53 “[It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out] ..” Nothing about the Earth moving, but giving the impression that the Earth is flat.

        All the translations are from your link only.

        So again if there is even ONE verse that says the earth is moving please show me or accept that the Quran does not say the Earth is moving.

        Show me. Instead of asking me questions, provide some answers.
        • Jul 16 2011: J Ali -

          below you say, "Bin Laden and his like are not Muslims..they did not know anything of the Quran...people will always use what they can for their own good....they are not even human, they are terrorists"

          Please you scare me when you talk like this. Do you realize that is the same logic the Sunis use to kill Shias?

          This kind of reasoning gives them immunity to Qur'an 4:93 ''And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and CURSE him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.''

          Relax a little. Bin Laden and the like ARE Muslims and they ARE human. They may not have the right idea of Islam, but they are Muslims. They may not be nice humans but they are humans. Our fellow man. We must acknowledge this. I don't know what the answer is; Live and let live? educate? show love and understanding? fight them if they attack us?

          Whatever it is, we are all part of the same human family, you, me, them, the Chinese, the African, the European, the Eskimo, the good and the bad. Reason with them and try to get them to do good. God is good.

          Sadly, I think it is the Islamic scriptures that has lead them to this highly negative behavior. They think so too, they just don't see it as negative.
      • Jun 30 2011: SR - Be honest! The sun does not have a resting place, day or night. Therefor the Qur'an is wrong, and that's all it takes is one wrong statement and the whole premise of it being the exact word of God falls apart.
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          Jun 30 2011: Exactly
        • Jul 1 2011: Dear Elam,
          Koran did not say resting point at DAY OR NIGHT!
          please do not misquote Koran.
          Koran only said:
          SUN IS GOING TO ITS RESTING POINT.where is day or night? not said resting at night or day.
          I repeated this many times and again Richard repeat it and says Exactly!
          please look here and show me day or night:
          http://tanzil.net/#36:38
          if DAY OR NIGHT not found please say honestly you are wrong.
          Richard made me sad by this his behavior. he repeats false information after my explains and showing in Koran.

          this is what Richard said and you are repeating it without checking Koran.
          I am sorry for you and Richard. coping from liar links who cut or misquote or mix parts of Koran and make lies. I hope God send lie makers to Hell.

          some people are like housefly. they leave flowers and sit only on smelly things.
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          Jul 1 2011: SR Please understand, by saying the Sun does not have a resting place day or night, it means the Sun does not have a resting place ANYTIME, period!

          He is not saying the Quran said that. What he is pointing out is the Quran says the sun "runs to ITS RESTING-PLACE" and the Sun does not have a resting place anytime.

          Not during day, not during night, not in a billion years, not EVER.

          "Richard made me sad by this his behavior. he repeats false information after my explains and showing in Koran."

          It is YOU SR who keeps repeating false things. I point out the errors in your explanations and yet you continue with your explanations as though they are true.

          According to you anyone who points out the truth, if it contradicts the Quran, is like a housefly sitting on smelly things.

          In your mind I would say beautiful things if I told you I agreed with you, accepted all the unbelievable things you say, and stopped pointing out the truth.

          SR "Koran says earth is moving. example:
          http://tanzil.net/#77:25 (earth is moving like birth with tight wings and moving fast)"

          And the link says "Made We not the earth to be a housing"

          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/77:25

          NONE of them say the Earth is moving!

          YOU are lying SR. Stop lying.
        • Jul 2 2011: You are all wrong..and sometimes (sorry SR, I love you btw) even SR is wrong..you do not understand Arabic and therefore the Quran..... I am too impatient for these kind of arguments... Ugh! I'm going to burst...! Richard I fully understand your arguments and the answers to them are very clear to me.....I'm just a little impatient to write them down.....I have only recently started to argue by the internet and it hasn't been fun...very frustrating actually...I prefer face to face arguments......how long has this been going on for?!!

          With SR's English, your sad misunderstanding and everyone throwing claims at each other...This is actually getting quite funny...but sad.

          Bye bye.....and if you want to ask me anything about Islam sometime,and you want to know the truth, with no misunderstanding, I am always here to help you out, Richard. Have a great worldly life!!

          :))
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          Jul 2 2011: Dont get me wrong. I love SR too. Its just that he exasperates the hell out of me. (SR thats just an English "expression". English is a funny language - with a lot of funny expressions, like day and night)
        • Jul 2 2011: "the Sun does not have a resting place ANYTIME, period!"
          are you astronomer?


          "NONE of them say the Earth is moving!"
          when they say earth is like x and x is a moving thing it means earth is moving.
          I am not interested to repeat this again.
          you can accept or not.
        • Jul 2 2011: SR,

          http://tanzil.net/#2:285
          http://tanzil.net/#7:79
          http://tanzil.net/#11:17 -ويتلوه شاهد يعني امام علي -عليه السلام
          http://tanzil.net/#43:83
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          Jul 2 2011: ""the Sun does not have a resting place ANYTIME, period!"

          SR "are you astronomer?"

          1. No but when I was 12, I learned Newton's Laws of Motion. It follows from Newton's first law..
          2. From a reading of that verse along with the others such as "the setting-place of the sun", since the sun sets at night, the resting place it is obviously referring to, is the "murky spring" at the "setting-place of the sun", at night.
          3. In any case the Sun will never stop moving, as I said it follows from Newton's first Law of motion. Why dont you ask an astronomer?
          4. No verse of the Quran says the Earth moves in an orbit, like it says of the Sun and the Moon, which can be seen to move. The Earth cannot be seen or felt to move and the Quran has no such verse saying the Earth moves in an orbit.

          None of the verses you have referred to say the Earth is moving.

          SR "when they say earth is like x and x is a moving thing it means earth is moving"

          But each x they refer to is NOT a moving thing.

          77:25 - a housing, storehouse, repository, receptacle. None of them move, None of them revolve or rotate like the Earth.
          27:88 - we have been through this before. The hills will vanish like the clouds on the judgement day.
          20:53 - A bed spread out, or a cradle, none of them moving, they dont revolve or rotate like the Earth
          60:57 - The Earth is NOT moving docile as you claim. The verse says "It is He who made the earth submissive to you; therefore walk in its tracts" Its telling YOU and people to walk on the Earth. It is not saying the Earth is moving.

          Those are the only 4 verses you have referred to.
        • Jul 2 2011: Richard, why are you arguing on something you know nothing about? You do not know Arabic or the Quran.....I think you just love arguing with SR...you'r having fun...you are just playing.... you don't understand Arabic or speak a word of it so just leave the Quran and go argue on something you know about..... you are offending me because you are acting ignorantly towards Islam's holy book......Ignorantly in the fact that you know nothing of the Quran and you don't understand what it is saying...The Quran is not for anyone to come and interpret, especially when you are reading translations...Are you not understanding this or are you just playing?...

          I would never argue against Evolution because I don't know a lot about it and If I were to argue you would certainly notice very funny and misunderstood claims by me.....I am seeing these ridiculous and funny claims from you, because you do not understand the Quran...so please stop...
        • Jul 2 2011: Richard, Please don't stop bringing an intelligent, sane, non-deluded rebuttal to S.R.'s tireless attempts to delude the world. Thank you for having the patience to "fight the good fight".

          J Ali, "The Quran is not for anyone to come and interpret"---I say that is exactly what it is for. The current state of the "Islamic world" proves that people take what they want from the book. Instead of Richard Dawson, you should be offended by the followers of your religion who poison Islam's name through their actions which they justify by this book. As far as "ridiculous and funny claims" go, I feel they are coming from your side of the argument. Does this mean I should be offended by you?

          If you want to put an end to the winning arguments of Richard Dawson in these debates with S.R., I would suggest convincing S.R. to stop posting these same debates. Good luck with that one though.
        • Jul 2 2011: J Ali, "The Quran is not for anyone to come and interpret"---I say that is exactly what it is for. The current state of the "Islamic world" proves that people take what they want from the book. Instead of Richard Dawkins, you should be offended by the followers of your religion who poison Islam's name through their actions which they justify by this book.''


          And who told you that I am not offended by people who interpret the Quran for their own use...killing children, women and innocent lives..They are killing us also.....I am very offended by the people who claim to be followers of my religion and I stand firmly against them..

          If you had read what I was saying, I said that because the Quran is an Arabic book, no one can come and interpret it without full knowledge in all of the subjects needed to explain the Quran...Bin Laden and his like are not Muslims..they did not know anything of the Quran...people will always use what they can for their own good....they are not even human, they are terrorists... And Muslim scholars have always been standing against him, Wahabissm and Terrorism....We stand for Justice.....before America was attacked, we were being murdered for more than 1400 years.....Before New York, Madrid and London it was Karbala were a massacre took place....where the grandson of the prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) and his family (including his baby) and companions were murdered...Before America was attacked, my uncles and grandfathers were murdered one after the other for being Shia Muslims....Please read about our history....we have been oppressed since the first day the Prophet Muhammed died...... Islam is not what Al-Qaeda would have liked you to think it was.....

          ''The fact that you continue to win these arguments ''

          ''Fain would they extinguish Allah.s light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).''

          9:32

          Btw, I don't see any Richard Dawkins here.
        • Jul 2 2011: "Btw, I don't see any Richard Dawkins here"

          Good point. I apologize for my typo.

          I do not apologize for pointing out that being offended by a man who is having an intelligent debate on a subject is totally different from being truly offended by Murderers, rapists, and any animal who tries to pass him/herself off as a human. Save your "offense" for something worthy of it, please.

          To the point you made about your people being killed for years. I am offended by senseless murder. That type of thing has happened and continues to happen in every part of the world in varying degrees. THAT is what offended me, not an argument over the "perfection" of a book.

          I find it ironic that you use a verse from the Koran translated into English to make your last point. I understand it quite well, even though I did not read it in the original Arabic. ...Quite ironic indeed.
        • Jul 2 2011: ''I do not apologize for pointing out that being offended by a man who is having an intelligent debate''

          I am offended because he doesn't understand the Quran to start arguing about it....Just like a scientist would be annoyed if anyone comes and starts arguing the theory of evolution with them.....making obvious mistakes and so on......

          ''that type of thing has happened and continues to happen''

          Well, to us it has been happening the first day the Prophet Muhammed died....not something new.... The Prophet Muhammed would be the most person against what Muslims are doing today...If you talk of Muslims being terrorists, Murderers....then yes but not all of them....If you talk of Muslims being uncivilized, then mostly yes....why do you think I like that>? do you think Islam teaches us to be like this??

          ''I find it ironic that you use a verse from the Koran translated into English to make your last point.''

          The Quran can be understood through translations, but not enough, not enough at all for someone to start arguing on verses..... I mean, all of Richards arguments are based on no understanding of Arabic..Arabic is absolutely vital to understanding the Quran and arguing on what it says and what it means..The Quran's ideas are open for discussion...but not what the Quran says..you need to be an expert at Arabic, Islam and more to understand what the Quran is saying......

          http://www.shiamultimedia.com/books/english/Ayatullah%20Jafar%20Subhani%20-%20Intoduction%20To%20The%20%20Science%20Of%20Tafseer%20Of%20The%20Quran.pdf

          Read this book please....


          An intelligent debate is only one if the arguments are based on full understanding....what I am saying is that Richard has got no clue what he is saying...because he does not understand the Quran.....I am not offended by the fact he is debating...we love debate...but I am offended by ignorant and unfair debates on the Quran with absolutely no understanding of it....... No one has one these debates, not Richard nor SR....
        • Jul 2 2011: "I am offended because he doesn't understand the Quran to start arguing about it....Just like a scientist would be annoyed if anyone comes and starts arguing the theory of evolution with them.....making obvious mistakes and so on......"

          You hit the nail on the head. I couldn't agree more. Scientists would be annoyed to debate a subject with someone who knows nothing about the facts they need to make their claim.This is quite different than being "offended" by someone arguing the counterpoint to a proposed debate about the "perfection" of a book. Beliefs are not facts. Interpretations are not facts. Who is to say that your interpretation is the one who the writer of the Koran (whoever that was), meant to be the correct one? I say that being annoyed and being offended are different. Be annoyed with Richard if you like, but don't be offended. Again, save your offense for something worthy of it.
        • Jul 2 2011: ''Be annoyed with Richard if you like, but don't be offended.''

          ''This is quite different than being "offended" by someone arguing the counterpoint to a proposed debate about the "perfection" of a book.''

          ''beliefs are not facts. Interpretations are not facts.''

          Arguing must be through the proper understanding..... The Quran is the Book of Islam and like any other book or branch of knowledge there is a special way to argue on the Quran.....this can only be done with great understanding of Arabic.....otherwise we will keep going on and on with no understanding.....I have said that all of his arguments have clear answers...and that the main reason he is wrong is because he doesn't understand Arabic...I respect the idea of arguing greatly....I respect everyone who argues on anything.....I respect their arguments....but I find it ignorant and a waste of valuable time to start arguing on something you know nothing about.....That is not to say that the Quran can only be understood by Arabic experts...it can be understood by anyone in the world.....just in the right way from the right scholars of Islam who know what they are talking about....I hope you can understand this.....and maybe ''offended'' wasn't the right word to choose..so apologies if that annoyed you...I am just saying that it is very wrong and makes no one a winner as you claim......

          ''Who is to say that your interpretation is the one who the writer of the Koran (whoever that was), meant to be the correct one?''

          I did not say anything like that, I was talking of the moments before actual interpretation, someones background of knowledge into a particular subject, in this case- The Quran, Which Richard has none of due to the points explained. Which makes all his arguments worth nothing...not a winner, no one was....but still respect the way he argues...

          Thanks.
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          Jul 2 2011: J Ali - “ You do not know Arabic” True

          “or the Quran” Not true.

          I have copies of the English translations. I have not read the whole book admitted, because I find it too disjointed, repetitive and boring to read, but I can look up and search for any claims made by you or SR.

          JR “.....I think you just love arguing with SR...you'r having fun...you are just playing....”

          No I would rather involve my time elsewhere but I think this is important. In the meantime, since I do it, I might as well have some fun too.

          I am only quoting the Quran (since you object to the Hadith’s) and using straightforward logic to interpret it’s meaning. If you find that offensive, I am sorry but I am not going to stop, if SR wont stop either.

          I think I have proven my point to any unbiased reader.

          You are not reading a passage right when you ignore the actual theme of the passage to go tearing off after a word and trying to relate it to the Big Bang or the Sun turning into a Red Giant 4 billion years hence, when the obvious meaning is the Sun's daily revolution around the Earth and having its resting place at night in a muddy spring.

          J Ali “The Quran is not for anyone to come and interpret, especially when you are reading translations...Are you not understanding this”

          I am understanding what you are saying all right, but I’m not buying it. (I don’t accept your contention as being correct). This is just a way to wriggle out of the debate or challenge you yourself issued.

          J Ali “I would never argue against Evolution because I don't know a lot about it”

          No one stops you from learning about Evolution and then questioning it.

          Science invites questions and challenges to promote understanding and knowledge. If in the course of these questions and challenges you manage to disprove a theory it is modified to accommodate the new insight.

          It invites questions not submission.

          There is no idea or theory that is sacred in science.
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          Jul 2 2011: Don’t think I didn’t read those passages you quoted to SR, telling him to lay off.

          “Is he (to be counted equal with them) who relieth on a clear proof from his Lord, and a witness from Him reciteth it, …? Such believe therein, and whoso disbelieveth therein of the clans, the Fire is his appointed place. So be not thou in doubt concerning it. Lo! it is the Truth from thy Lord; but most of mankind believe not.”

          http://tanzil.net/#11:17

          Sure that is indeed a great argument.

          And more so when Muhammad and the Quran repeatedly challenge others to show their proof.

          But when they themselves are questioned or challenged for their proof it threatens the disbelievers with Hell Fire.

          Unfortunately for you I stopped believing in the Bogey-man a long time ago.

          Hell may frighten you but not me and not a whole lot of people who have either not been subjugated by that phobia to start off with, or have rationally overcome it.
        • Jul 3 2011: '' I am only quoting the Quran (since you object to the Hadith’s) and using straightforward logic to interpret it’s meaning.''

          Firstly I do NOT object to the Hadith and I have said that clearly.....

          I am not trying to force you to stop...I am asking you to, if you want you can continue....I don't really care because you don't understand Arabic....use your logical interpretations of the translations..and then at the end of it all you think you have defeated Islam, the Quran and all Muslims.... I am just trying to tell you how wrong that is...you are ignorant...

          ''I think I have proven my point to any unbiased reader.''

          Yes you certainly have....but I can also be unbiased in anything I don't understand....

          ''You are not reading a passage right when you ignore the actual theme of the passage to go tearing off after a word and trying to relate it to the Big Bang or the Sun turning into a Red Giant 4 billion years hence, when the obvious meaning is the Sun's daily revolution around the Earth and having its resting place at night in a muddy spring.''

          I'll keep it short, you don't understand a thing on the Quran....because you don't understand Arabic...

          ''This is just a way to wriggle out of the debate or challenge you yourself issued.''

          I never issued any challenge....you started claiming things, out of ignorance, and i tried to answer..then I just left you..because I don't argue with ignorant people....

          ''No one stops you from learning about Evolution and then questioning it.''

          I am saying that you don't know anything about the Quran so you can't question anything about what it seems to say to you through translations..YOU don't seem to be learning.

          ''Science invites questions and challenges to promote understanding and knowledge.''

          So does Islam, but not ignorantly and prejudicially... If it so difficult for you to understand this...then don't, and keep arguing.. I am not forcing you to stop.....just that, it won't affect any Muslim or the Quran or Islam..
        • Jul 3 2011: ''It invites questions not submission.''

          Islam invites to submission to God, but only through thought and knowledge...I don't believe that a lot of Muslims of the world have true submission to Allah, because they don't have true knowledge.... it is blind following just like most other religious followers..You are judging Islam by its followers...Islam does not invite to blind following, The Quran is actually the most religious book I've seen denouncing Blind following....and that is why you find our philosophical and Kalam books mentioning in detail the ideas of others, arguing them rationally through logic and then giving what Islam says and proving it.... I invite you to come to our seminaries to see how we teach...

          '' Don’t think I didn’t read those passages you quoted to SR, telling him to lay off.''
          ''Sure that is indeed a great argument. ''

          I don't care if you read them or not..I didn't even post them for you...It was for SR as he is a fellow Muslim brother... You and your claims and arguments are nothing to me because they are based on no understanding.....I respect you...but you are of no value to me.....

          This shows your misunderstanding, who said the verse was an argument.....did I even give it as an argument?! I gave it for SR to read....

          ''But when they themselves are questioned or challenged for their proof it threatens the disbelievers with Hell Fire.''

          Not when they are questioned....but always, Glad Tidings and warnings.......The Quran was never challenged for proof, the Quran was first accepted by Arabs as the words of God... The Quran challenged the greatest of Arabs to produce one surah the likes of the Quran....no one could or ever will....If you don't like that then don't, I don't really care...

          ''Unfortunately for you I stopped believing in the Bogey-man a long time ago. ''

          No, not unfortunate for me. Unfortunate for you...I don't care about you one bit... and I can just ask you to wait and see....Death is not far away..
        • Jul 3 2011: ''Science invites questions and challenges to promote understanding and knowledge''

          Muslims made modern science what it is today.....read our history, read about what is called the Islamic Golden Age.... Do you think we hate science or something?..Islam supports fact...Islam supports truth....Islam promotes knowledge...Please do not look at what Muslims are doing today....I look at them and I feel like cursing them just as much as you might curse them.......There is something above science, something above this universe.... Read our philosophical proofs...read what the likes of Avicenna had to say.... His books aren't even studied in universities today...why? You think we just ''believe''..... do you know how much I hate that thing about Christianity? that someone has to believe even if sometimes it doesn't make sense? Religion is not Mystery... Religion is rational logical and philosophical proof.... If intelligent design is refuted by evolution (as Richard Dawkins might like to say) then he still has tens of others of philosophical proofs to refute.... Lets see him stand against Avicenna...

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasir_al-Din_al-Tusi

          Read about this mans life and tell me where he wasn't scientific....

          Muslims may be changing from good to bad or from bad to worse,yes..they do not always represent Islam..Islam will stay forever..The Flag of the Quran will be here forever..the Flag of God will be here forever....the Flag of There is no God But Allah and Muhammed is his messenger will stay here forever..The same Islam..there will always be people on earth worshiping their Lord and your Lord, we don't care about Atheists ...Muslims might be uncivilized and destructors today ...but Islam is not Muslims....You can keep arguing if you like....with SR.

          Goodbye everybody.
        • Jul 3 2011: Iqbal, did you just become Atheist or are you still Hindu? Were you even Hindu before? you confuse me a lot, you just seem to come in at the end of everything and leave differing comments..you give me a well needed laugh at the end these conversations..just popping up from nowhere with your delightful comments...thanks!.. so what do you believe in? are you an Atheist?
        • Jul 3 2011: Richard,
          "But each x they refer to is NOT a moving thing."
          they all are moving things.
          for example cradle. you say cradle is not moving. are you sure?
          cradle is for babies and is moving to baby not cry.
          I do not know what is cradle in New Zealand.
          or ذلول means a calm walking animal specially camel.
          also other words are moving things.
          if you not consider the moving meaning of them then how you translate those verses?
        • Jul 3 2011: "77:25 - a housing, storehouse, repository, receptacle. None of them move, None of them revolve or rotate like the Earth."
          Words you said are not the only meanings of کفاتا. It also has the meaning of a fast moving bird with closed wings.
          How you can understand which of meaning is correct in context?
          Also I do not say this meaning (fast bird) from myself.

          "27:88 - we have been through this before. The hills will vanish like the clouds on the judgment day. "
          this verse does not speak about vanishing or about judgment day. This is your unproved claim that this verse is about Judgment day. Yes there is possibility that this is about Judgment day but also there is possibility it is not about Judgment day that I showed proof that it is not about Judgment day.

          "20:53 - A bed spread out, or a cradle, none of them moving, they dont revolve or rotate like the Earth"
          مهادا does not mean bed. It is cradle which is for babies and is moving go and back to baby not cry. Please search the meaning of مهد

          "60:57 - The Earth is NOT moving docile as you claim. The verse says "It is He who made the earth submissive to you; therefore walk in its tracts" Its telling YOU and people to walk on the Earth. It is not saying the Earth is moving."
          Your verse number is wrong.
          It is http://tanzil.net/#67:15
          Please search ذلول it means a docile animal which before has been wild .
          It is mostly used for a calm walking camel.
          It is normal in Arab to call a calm walking camel ذلول.
          ذلول is a king of camel. For example people say: how much is price of that ذلول? Or I have a ذلول. It means calm walking camel.

          And this verse says: "he is who made earth for you docile"
          It means in past earth was moving wild (perhaps at first stages of age of earth) and then earth became moving calm like a wild animal that then becomes docile.

          Also your translate "It is He who made the earth submissive to you" says such thing. What means "He who made the earth submissive to you"?
          To be hones it does not mean earth
        • Jul 3 2011: Also your translate "It is He who made the earth submissive to you" says such thing. What means "He who made the earth submissive to you"?
          To be hones it does not mean earth before was moving wild then God made it submissive for human? Why a earth needs to be submissive ? Because human needs to live on it. And if it moves wild human can not live.

          But you insist they do not mean earth is moving.
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          Jul 3 2011: ''I am only quoting the Quran (since you object to the Hadith’s) and using straightforward logic to interpret it’s meaning.''

          J Ali – “Firstly I do NOT object to the Hadith ..”

          You do not object to the Hadith whenever it confirms your beliefs, and reject it when it doesn’t.

          The Quran says Muhammad was a perfect human being. The Hadiths and the Sira paint a very different picture, so you reject the bad bits, which are many.

          I am not playing that game. I would rather take the challenge using the Quran alone and not leave you or anyone with an excuse against my arguments.

          J Ali “It was for SR as he is a fellow Muslim brother... you are of no value to me…”

          I reject any ideology that makes you, in your mind, divide your fellow human beings into Muslim and non-Muslim. That, in your mind, makes you superior to your fellow human beings because of your belief. That makes humans into valueless creatures depending on their beliefs.

          Such an ideology can never be the right one for humans.

          You say I am of no value and that you will laugh at me when I am in Hell on the judgement day.

          Though your beliefs are ridiculous and absurd, your feelings, which are generated because of your beliefs, are not.

          I, who you condemn, because I do not believe in Allah or Muhammad, and point out errors in their writings, consider you as a fellow human being and would never wish any ill or harm to you or any stranger who has done me no harm.

          Tell me, why do you think that you are morally superior to me just because you believe in Allah and Muhammad?

          J Ali “Muslims made modern science what it is today..”

          That is absolutely not true. Modern science owes its antecedents to the Greek thinkers and scientists, Archimedes, Aristotle and others.

          Human thought is the product of humans, not Zeus or Apollo, or Ra, or Allah or any other god.

          The modern scientific renaissance and the fathers of modern science Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Dalton, Darwin, etc owed nothing to the Muslims.
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          Jul 3 2011: SR - your arguments are so childish and patently absurd as to be laughable.

          SR "I do not know what is cradle in New Zealand"

          1. The word is Bed OR Cradle
          2. Cradles in New Zealand are not whipped around and around like Earth around the Sun. Is that what is done in Iran?

          "My Lord neither erreth nor forgetteth, Who hath appointed the earth as a bed and hath threaded roads for you therein.."
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/20:53

          It is saying that God has made the Earth like a bed or cradle for humanity and has "threaded roads for us therein.." (though we and not Allah make roads).

          Who in his right mind would interpret that as the Earth moving around the Sun or moving at all?

          Stop this nonsense. None of those verses talk about the Earth moving at all. And none of them speak of the Earth moving in an orbit around the Sun.

          On the other hand the Quran talks about the Sun moving in an orbit, it talks about a place where the sun sets, and talks about the sun's resting place.

          "And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. (38) And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf. (39) It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit. (40)"

          Open your mind and stop lying to yourself SR.

          If the verse is talking about a red sky, it could be talking about the big bang or red giants, but maybe, just maybe, its talking about a red sky?
        • Jul 3 2011: @J Ali, I wish I had ample time to read the entire commentary going on here, but I don't. However, somewhere up there you mentioned that understanding Koran requires sufficient skills in the Arabic language, and going along your trace of thought, some understanding of the culture and history of Islamic world. I absolutely agree with you, and that's why I should point out it constitutes that Koran is not universal and timeless. How would you expect a non Muslim to accept its validity if he/she cannot even understand it? I guess it is something to ponder about!
          Update: I just saw Richard made the same point in a post and S.R. responding by learning Arabic online! However, that is merely an anachronism as I have to first accept validity of Koran and then go learn Arabic but not to learn Arabic and then accept the validity of Koran. That is there is nothing to make me learn Arabic at the first place!

          @S. R. Thanks for initiating this discussion although I try not to get involved with it more than this. I just want to point out I had lived in Iran for years and spend a great deal of deal of it studying Islam. The things you claimed about Islamic Clergy, I emphasize the word Clergy not regular people, are at best deceptive. Their crimes are evident to any human right activist.
        • Jul 3 2011: ''You do not object to the Hadith whenever it confirms your beliefs, and reject it when it doesn’t. ''

          There are authentic Hadith and there are inauthentic hadith, this is known by studying very precisely the chain of narrators and studying the matn and so on...... Which is done by a mujtahid and not by me.....

          '' I reject any ideology that makes you, in your mind, divide your fellow human beings into Muslim and non-Muslim.''

          I did not say that he was morally superior to you.. I said I gave him the verse because he understands it..... not because you are different... Because he has read it many times before.. You just want to force yourself to understand the Quran...even if you don't....

          ''I, who you condemn, because I do not believe in Allah or Muhammad, and point out errors in their writings,''

          You point out errors to what YOU understand of TRANSLATIONS...... You DO NOT understand the Quran.. it seems you never will either...

          ''They subjugated your minds in an ideology that you and SR and millions of others are still slaves to.''

          No, I am Allahs slave.....I think rationally of my ideas on God, his oneness, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the rest of Islam. Ali Bin Abi Talib, .Avicenna, Averroes, Nasir al Din Al Tusi, Mulla Sadra and others were not brainwashed...they reached a stage of thought which you will never ever reach...You think we are subjugated in an ideology because you think you have destroyed the Quran through your claims on translations and your ignorant understanding...You are ignorant of your ignorance..and that is what destroys people....I keep telling you, if you want you can continue with SR...just that you are wasting your time.....

          I am not going to argue with you anymore..... When pride and ignorance come together...someone like you is made..you know nothing about Islam..

          ''Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance is the death of knowledge.''

          Goodbye Richard... continue with your hate of Islam and not Muslims..Wait...
        • Jul 3 2011: Dear Sometimes Someone, lovely name....

          ''as I have to first accept validity of Koran and then go learn Arabic but not to learn Arabic and then accept the validity of Koran.''

          Very true.,,and I have been saying that the Quran is for everyone and not just experts of Arabic.... Millions of people who do not speak Arabic have converted to Islam.....they did not know Arabic so how did they become Muslims? the answer is that the message of the Quran is not an Arabic message...it is for all of mankind.....just like any other message... The Quran can be explained fully by Muslim scholars to absolutely anyone....Translations of the Quran do not encompass at all the Arabic Quran..... so translations should really be very very long commentaries with full explanation of the Arabic.. What I was telling Richard is that he is reading these translations and then giving ignorant arguments...then at the end of everything he thinks he has defeated Islam and the Quran....and he then claims that we are running away....if I am running away from anything...it is Richards ignorance....

          For,

          '' Every time I argue with a knowledgeable person I win, Every time I argue with an ignorant person he defeats me.''

          He just doesn't seem to understand this....I hope you can.....Islam is welcome for anyone to question it and argue... but not through ignorance....you must know what you are arguing before you start to..that is obvious.... The Quran's ideas are very clear....Islam is very clear.... The miracle of Arabic in the Quran is not clear to anyone....only to experts of Arabic who -since the advent of Islam- cannot produce one chapter the likes of the Qurans surahs... The Quran's is not giving just an Arabic miracle.....it is giving Ideas through Arabic...the Ideas are important...the ideas can be understood by anyone....but the Arabic may not....there is no problem with that as the Quran is not here for us to just study Arabic...it wants us to listen to its ideas....

          Thanks.....
        • Jul 3 2011: ''this is how you make people follow your religion eh? ''

          What do you do? you just come in at the end of everything with your comments....your comments deserve a thumbs down....I am not trying to make him follow my religion.... He hates Islam and its ideas..all he wants is for him to be right..and all I am telling him is that he is ignorant....If someone comes with an open heart and not a proud, prejudiced and ignorant heart (and that is the worst thing).....then, I will engage in talks with him.. We don't MAKE people follow Islam....it is up to them...their choice.. Richard has made his choice.. not just about Islam but about religion in general......What is wrong with waiting? we are all waiting for something...we are all dying......someday even Richard will die....someday you will die....someday I will die.....We can only wait and see...Life is to death and death is truth...and we will all find the truth at death..and ONLY Allah knows that day....
        • Jul 3 2011: '' I don't think he hate Islam, he just points out the errors contained in Koran and thus disproving its authenticity from Allah''


          He does not point out anything... He is, as I have explained, very ignorant of Arabic and therefore the Quran....... He is arguing a translation... The translation may be wrong because the Quran is not....ALL his arguments don't apply one bit to the Arabic Quran......

          ''You keep ducking his arguments by saying Arabic is essential to understand Koran. ''

          No, I do not keep ducking....I am tired of arguing with him.....he just doesn't want to understand that he is arguing ignorantly.....he just wants to continue with what he thinks is right...I am not trying to force him to stop, merely pointing out his mistakes...

          ''what is your thought on those Clerics who knew Arabic at a masterly level and issue fatwas once in a while?''

          Who, Bin Laden?? Ibn Baz?? I talk of people like Allama Tabatabai like Allama Tabrasi like Jafar Subhani like Muhammed Baqir Al Sadr and like Avicenna...

          Bin Laden was not an expert on Arabic....nor was he on the Quran...

          ''so when one points out mistake in Koran he automatically becomes hater of Islam.''

          No.. But he must point it out in a knowledgeable way... not ignorantly...no one has pointed out a mistake in the Quran...just vague translations... If you want to understand this misunderstanding then read my comments to Elam on ''Allah deceiving in the Quran'' with other verses in those same comments.... Once someone understands Arabic properly...then no argument is in place....And that is why I am saying that no one has won... In fact, Richard has lost a lot of time.....if he has won these arguments....then he still has the QURAN to argue..which he hasn't due to his absolutely poor understanding of Arabic... He needs to have full understanding of Arabic poetry, full understanding of Arabic Grammar and Sarf, full understanding of Balagha...and much more.....which he doesn't and that is why he is ignorant.
        • Jul 3 2011: In fact, if you had read my comments you would have known that i am very much against sticking any Quranic verse on scientific fact...I have clearly said this..and our Shia scholars have also clearly said this.......I have only been replying to claims made by others....

          This universe is nothing....Allah is its creator.....and that is the main thing of the Quran...the main thing of our lives is Allah.... I want to see anyone from the scientists standing against Avicenna and his proofs.... Science is one thing and philosophy is another....they are not in conflict.....Philosophy explains Science and its existence..
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          Jul 3 2011: J Ali “I am Allahs slave...”

          What does that mean? Does it mean that Allah descends from the heavens and whispers in your ear telling you what to do?

          No. It means that before you go to the bathroom you consult the Quran, the “authentic” Hadiths and your Mullahs interpretation of them, which tell you how to go to the bathroom.

          That is the ideology invented by men to enslave you under some mythical Allah.

          When you do some act of kindness is it done out of the goodness of your heart, as many non-Muslims and agnostics and atheists, who you condemn to burn in the eternal fires of Hell, do?

          No you quote some verse in the Quran, which promises you heaven if you do it and hell if you don’t, to do it.

          That is the ideology invented by men to enslave you under some mythical Allah.

          Do you or SR think for yourself about the shape of the Earth or any scientific advance?

          No you spend your time studying the Quran, and when some atheist Nobel Prize winner discovers something by using his brain, you claim that the Quran discovered that 1400 years ago, because it said the sky was red and Allah is all-knowing, wise.

          That is the ideology invented by men to enslave you under some mythical Allah.

          @ Iqbal “It appears to me when science confirms a theory, you all of a sudden proudly announce that it was written 1400 yrs ago in Koran. tomorrow if science proves Earth is not moving around Sun then you would also say it was already mentioned in Koran 1400 yrs ago.”

          “Bin Laden was not an expert on Arabic....nor was he on the Quran...”

          Bin Laden was an Arabic speaker. He quoted the Quran extensively in his Fatwas. Everyone quotes the Quran or the Hadiths to do whatever they want to do, mostly to kill, bully, terrify and subjugate.

          Everyone says this is the correct, “True” Islam, not that one.

          But for none of these people arguing, has the penny dropped, none of them has cottoned on (realised), that the whole thing is a man made farce.
        • Jul 3 2011: Richard,

          I will not continue, after this, to argue with you...But let me quickly look at what you say...

          You repeated this ''That is the ideology invented by men to enslave you under some mythical Allah.''

          you mention words like invented and mythical....that makes it obvious that you have a problem with all religions -not just Islam- believing in God, clearly because you are an atheist, and that they are all mythical and man made..

          I have said many times that Islamic concept of God is based on philosophical proof that you, Richard Dawkins and every single Atheist on Earth will never be able to refute.... You never even mention these philosophical proofs given by Muslim philosophers such as Avicenna, Averroes and Mulla Sadra.... It shows that you know nothing about Islam or its beliefs..... Islamic beliefs are based on very logical and complex philosophical proofs that you will never want to understand- because you don't want to. After we prove God without doubt... That he has created everything in existence....Everything is his....why should we not be slaves to him? Can we, after proving philosophically that we completely owe our existence to him, not be slaves to him? Being a slave to Allah is doing everything he orders you to do...not seeing other than Allah in everything...because he has that right as our creator and owner..He does not need our worship, he does not need anything. Rather we need him...We are Allah's and unto him we will be returning..We believe Allah only orders us to do good... that everything he tells us to do is for our own Good... We believe Good is in itself good even before Allah orders us to do it... But for us, after we believe rationally in Allah, Everything good is done to be closer to Allah...Heaven is being close to Allah....Our good deeds are heaven....God's acceptance is heaven....Read about Imam Ali's life and his quotes on God...

          Contd..
        • Jul 3 2011: J Ali,

          How many times are you going to say you are not going to comment again to only comment again within hours?

          What does the Koran say about lying? The moral highground you profess is laughable.
        • Jul 3 2011: I do good deeds because they are good.....but not only because they are good, these good deeds are a bridge between a human and Allah (remember that we have philosophical proof of God's existence and oneness ) ...so that is why we say that if you do good deeds your whole life with no belief in God, your actions are equal to zero....our goal in life is not anything in life, it is something after life...Life is of no worth..Allah is the goal..Good actions are for us to reach God... To know God.... to be a slave to Allah...that is heaven..Purity of the heart is to live everything for Allah... We worship Allah not for heaven or for fear of hell..we worship Allah because he is worthy of worship... Heaven comes as a result of worship. Hell comes as a result of no worship.... our goal is Allah... and that is why it is considered Shirk to worship Allah for heaven and not for Allah...

          ''Do you or SR think for yourself about the shape of the Earth or any scientific advance?''

          I don't know about SR but for me, yes certainly....

          ''No you spend your time studying the Quran, and when some atheist Nobel Prize winner discovers something by using his brain, you claim that the Quran discovered that 1400 years ago''

          I love science(I'm 16 btw) ..our Muslim scientists of the past loved science...Islam wants us to love science..Muslims were great scientists..but not love for itself....Islam wants us to reach something above science,through science and through ourselves, and that is Allah... Science is but a creation of God.. it is beautiful and magnificent...but in itself it is worth nothing without Allah giving it existence and beauty...Allah is the goal of all goals....

          I have said a lot that the Quran is not a book of science...it is a book of guidance...guidance may sometimes be through science...and I am strongly against interpretation of verses scientifically even when clearly there is no match....because the Quran talks of something greater than science and this universe...
        • Jul 3 2011: ''O mankind! you are they who stand in need of Allah, and Allah is He Who is the Self-sufficient, the Praised One.''

          35:15

          ''Say: Consider what is it that is in the heavens and the earth; and signs and warners do not avail a people who would not believe.''

          10:101

          ''And this world's life is naught but a play and an idle sport and certainly the abode of the hereafter is better for those who guard (against evil); do you not then understand?''

          6:39

          ''Allah amplifies and straitens the means of subsistence for whom He pleases; and they rejoice in this world's life, and this world's life is nothing compared with the hereafter but a temporary enjoyment.''

          13:26

          ''And this life of the world is nothing but a sport and a play; and as for the next abode, that most surely is the life-- did they but know!''

          29:64

          ''Know that the life of the world is only play, and idle talk, and pageantry, and boasting among you, and rivalry in respect of wealth and children; as the likeness of vegetation after rain, whereof the growth is pleasing to the husbandman, but afterward it drieth up and thou seest it turning yellow, then it becometh dry and crumbles away.And in the Hereafter there is grievous punishment, and (also) forgiveness from Allah and His good pleasure, whereas the life of the world is but matter of illusion.''

          57:20


          Finally, I recommend that you read what our philosophers and scholars have to say in their books...Read our philosophical proofs which are based on reason alone, by scholars such as Avicenna and M Sadra..the universe isn't just science....why are you throwing philosophy away.... Also read our scholarly books..Visit one of our holy shrines sometime, Visit Imam Ali bin Mosa Al Redha's shrine in Mashhad, Iran..you are welcome in our homes as a guest...read what we believe in from clear, pure sources..Be pure....I wish you the best of luck in your life....and I hope it will be filled with happiness...

          Goodbye.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Reza_shrine
        • Jul 3 2011: Jason, I said I would not argue....but I am not arguing here...I found it important to COMMENT as an explanation in reply to Richard's last comment.... Maybe because I said ''I will not continue, after this, to argue with you'' you came to understand this..... wrong choice of words I guess... Sorry..

          On the other hand Islam also considers bad suspicion and early judgment of your fellow brethren to be a sin... Good suspicion is a good deed.... e.g. suspecting that your fellow brother is not lying...

          ''O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion; indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another......''

          49:12

          I will not argue, but I may explain and elaborate...
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          Jul 4 2011: J Ali “I am still open to honest questions..”

          Have you had a birthday recently? In science there are great questions and silly questions, but what is an honest question? And what is a dishonest question?

          It seems that any question that acknowledges the "truth" of the Quran etc. but just asks for clarifications is an "honest" question, whereas a question that challenges the truth of your beliefs is a "dishonest" question.

          Example:

          SR – The Proof Quran is from God - because the Quran says the Sun is moving.

          Me – But of course, the Sun can be seen to move around the Earth and set in the Earth. The Quran never once says the Earth moves around the Sun or indeed that the Earth moves at all, whereas it says the Sun moves in an orbit, that it has a setting place in the Earth and that it sets in a muddy spring.

          Can you show me one verse which shows that the Earth moves around the Sun or indeed that the Earth moves at all?

          Now is that an honest question?

          SR “Koran says earth is moving. example:
          http://tanzil.net/#20:53 (earth is moving like a cradle)”

          The Sahih International English translation of that verse reads:

          “[It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out] and inserted therein for you roadways and sent down from the sky, rain and produced thereby categories of various plants.”
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/20:53

          Question: How does that verse in any way show that the Earth moves, leave alone moves around the Sun?

          Is that an honest question?

          Alternatively - My God SR !! That verse indeed shows the Earth is moving !!
          This shows that the Quran 1400 years ago, from the ignorant Arabs of that time, figured out miraculously that the Earth was moving, and it revolved around the Sun.

          How did they figure this out? [Answer (of course we know this) Allah the all-knowing, wise, told them]

          That is an honest question?
        • Jul 4 2011: Richard,
          "When the barbaric Muslim armies conquered and destroyed"
          renaissance was caused by Muslims


          "I know Omar Khayyam better than you. He was no Muslim. "
          !!!!
          he was a great Muslim. All he has is from Koran. His poems are from Koran.

          "Islam discourages knowledge outside of itself."
          100% false. Islam has many rewards and encourages for knowledge and science. Little example: Gaber, Avesina,…

          "If it weren’t for Galileo and Kepler "
          Most of them has root is Muslim scientists.
          Did you know computer was not possible without Kharazmi?
          But also western scientists had valuable tries.


          "People like SR spend their lifetimes"
          How you know my lifetime?

          "your arguments are so childish and patently absurd as to be laughable."
          yes ignorant people usually have such reaction.

          "1. The word is Bed OR Cradle"
          Yes. But mostly it is for cradle and bed OF BABY.
          THEN WHY YOU NOT CONSIDER THE CARDLE WHICH IS MOVING? AND ONLY PICK THE WEAKER MEAN WHICH IS IN YOUR BENEFIT?


          "2. Cradles in New Zealand are not whipped around and around like Earth around the Sun. Is that what is done in Iran?"
          I did not say it is moving around sun. I only say it is a moving bed. This is enough to show that Koran says earth is moving. But you only stick to what yourself want and only say bed. OK. I can not force you accept cradle is moving bed. You are free to deny.

          "http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/20:53"
          why you pick only translates fitting your benefit?
          why not see:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/20:53
          A real researcher considers all and also tries to understand deep meaning of a word then conclude. Anyway مهادا means moving bed mostly for babies.
          Do you disagree cradle is moving?

          "(though we and not Allah make roads). "
          You make by power of Allah.
          It is like that say knife cuts the fruit. Not you!

          "Who in his right mind would interpret that as the Earth moving around the Sun or moving at all?"
          Any one who be honest and accept cradle means moving bed of babies.

          "Stop this nonsense.
        • Jul 4 2011: "Stop this nonsense. "
          Your insist that cradle is not moving is more nonsense. Stop it.

          "None of those verses talk about the Earth moving at all. "
          this is your claim. You not want to accept you are false about moving earth in Koran an try to prove it in any way. Mixing verses. Picking special translates. Befooling ,...

          "And none of them speak of the Earth moving in an orbit around the Sun. "
          I accept this at this time. (now I do not know verse for that). But Koran says earth is moving.

          "On the other hand the Quran talks about the Sun moving in an orbit, it talks about a place where the sun sets, and talks about the sun's resting place."
          oh my God! You again and again repeat same thing without notice or disproving my replies.
          They are different independent verses. Orbit not means around earth. It means sun has a path. Not said around earth. Koran says some one (not Allah) FOUND THAT sun sets in a place. Yes Koran says sun will rich to a resting place. Problem? You are not astronomer.

          "Open your mind and stop lying to yourself SR."
          Open your mind and stop lying to yourself Richard.


          "If the verse is talking about a red sky, it could be talking about the big bang or red giants, but maybe, just maybe, its talking about a red sky?"
          please first prove your claim about Koran saying earth is flat. Then jump to another topic. This is a trick for escaping.

          "Does it mean that Allah descends from the heavens and whispers in your ear telling you what to do? "
          Allah talks trough Koran. Also in sleep dreams (but not to anyone)

          "No you spend your time studying the Quran,"
          do not say what you do not know.


          "He quoted the Quran extensively in his Fatwas."
          oh your beliefs are made by TV. A liar TV.


          "SR – The Proof Quran is from God - because the Quran says the Sun is moving."
          Do not misquote me. I say Koran has thousands of wonder fact and this is only one. Not only this one alone proves. But considering all facts of Koran it proves. What I said in TED are only very few fa
        • Jul 4 2011: "SR – The Proof Quran is from God - because the Quran says."
          Do not misquote me. I say Koran has thousands of wonder fact and this is only one. Not only this one alone proves. But considering all facts of Koran it proves. What I said in TED are only very few facts about Koran. Not all. If some one spend all his life still can not finish learning Koran. Even if by a 1000 years life.

          "The Quran never once says the Earth moves "
          Koran says and I showed you but you not accept. I think an Arabic professional hones (even non-Muslim) is needed to judge here.

          Your repeating same thing without disproving my reply is exactly DOGMA.


          "The Sahih International English translation of that verse reads: "
          translate is for simple reading not for such discusses. Also other translates say cradle. Why you not consider cradle which is a moving bed for babies?

          Also why you not consider other verses I showed you? For example that saying mountains are moving like clouds. You mixt that verse with its previous verse to prove it is about Judgment day. But I said you first should prove they are linked and continuous which you did not care about this reply. And only you say it is obvious for me that verse is for Judgment day! This is prove?
          Also other verse saying earth is like ذلول which is a calm walking camel.
          Also other verse saying earth is کفاتا which had different meaning and you pick meaning in your benefit. But an expert picks meaning according context and other criteria.
          OK you still insist Koran not say earth is moving. I consider this your behaviour nothing but DOGMA.


          "How did they figure this out? [Answer (of course we know this) Allah the all-knowing, wise, told them]"
          If you know my reply before I speak so why you are talking me?
          Do you want I give you my TED password and you write my comments?
          I think you know what I will say in future.
          This is amazing ability. How you got it?
        • Jul 4 2011: Dear Richard,
          please reply this.
          bed has different words in Arabic each are different but all translated bed in English.
          Koran uses both فراش and مهد
          فراش means bed (what people sleep on it at night even Mattress is called فراش)
          مهد means (you say bed I say cradle which is moving bed for baby)
          this is مهد (in that verse مهادا ):

          http://www.up2.ir/image-B9D0_4A6D04C8.jpg

          http://anobanini.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5009&stc=1&d=1286800579

          http://www.iranak.info/Download/DIRDataBase8/632928527080781250_623398_koodak-va-gahvareh.jpg

          why Koran not said فراش in this verse but said فراش in other verses? and why said مهد about earth?
          when Koran uses فراش and مهد in different verses what it means?
          you speak such you seem professional in Arabic. so please answer this.
          I accept مهد (مهادا( means bed also. but it is weaker mean. and main mean is cradle.
          the Arabic Koran is important in research. not translated. translated are not 100% perfect and do not contain all meaning of Arabic word.
          translate is only for simple studying. not for research or for fighting on exact meaning of a Arabic word.
          I wonder why you insist on what you do not know perfect.
          I do not know what is your prophecy. (if you have any. you seem a jobless man filling you time and your life with typing same thing again and again in ted without first disproving replies. I do not know what you are really looking for in ted).
          but if you have any prophecy I prefer not argue in your prophecy which I am ignorant in your prophecy and I prefer to accept word of a professional and not argue it before I really study and know what I want to say perfect.
        • thumb
          Jul 4 2011: "renaissance was caused by Muslims"

          SR you constantly amaze me with your ignorance. All you seem to know are the fairy tales of your religion. Please educate yourself about the Renaissance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance#Origins

          SR "he [Omar Khayyam] was a great Muslim."

          When once you hear the roses are in bloom,
          Then is the time, my love, to pour the wine;
          Houris and palaces and Heaven and Hell-
          These are but fairy-tales, forget them all.
          Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayy%C3%A1m#Views_on_religion

          "Islam discourages knowledge outside of itself."

          SR "100% false."

          No true. Little example SR, the students from your country who are running away to the west, the state of science in Islamic states, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan.

          "Did you know computer was not possible without Kharazmi?"

          I was not taught Muslim fairy tales.

          "Indian mathematician Brahmagupta gave the first explanation of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system and the use of zero as both a placeholder and a decimal digit. Approximately around the year 825, Persian mathematician Al-Khwarizmi wrote a book, On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals, .. principally responsible for the diffusion of the Indian system of numeration in the Middle East and then Europe."

          "Around the 3rd century BC, Indian mathematician Pingala discovered the binary numeral system...still used today in all modern computers"

          Then Leibnitz and then Boole, and the first computer Alan Turing. All that Khwarizmi did was facilitate the spread of the Hindu decimals to the west. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computer_science

          SR "How you know my lifetime?"

          I see your lifetime over here spouting Islam and the Quran. I see your ignorance of everything else.

          "The Quran never once says the Earth moves " true.

          Your translation "He who appointed the earth to be a cradle for you, and therein threaded roads for you,.."

          Only a fool would say that means the Earth is movin
        • Jul 4 2011: ''Have you had a birthday recently?''

          Yes. thanks! That was a great question btw...
        • Jul 4 2011: "Please educate yourself about the Renaissance. "
          also you. please open your eyes and read:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe
          "Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe were numerous, affecting such varied areas as art, architecture, medicine, agriculture, music, language, education, law, and technology. "
          the books of Muslim scientists were heavily translated and it was base for Renaissance. Most of today techs have root in works of Muslims scientists.

          Also read:
          ***The Twelfth Century Renaissance: contact with Islamic science and learning awakened dormant European mental activity.
          http://www.medievalhistory.net/scientia.htm


          "SR "he [Omar Khayyam] was a great Muslim.""
          you read poems apparently. But do you know what means Khayyam by wine?
          not all understand his poems.
          The wine is "knowing God"
          When a Muslim reaches to high levels of knowing God that knowledge make them drunk . But not from alcohol. From enjoying of being near of God. Nearing to God is by high knowledge of God.
          They never drink one drop of alcohol.
          First understand meaning of poems then quote them.
          Each poem of them is from one verse of Koran. But in poem language.
          I think this is 3th time you say this about Khayyam and I before showed your poems from him showing mean of wine and proving he was Muslim. But you like always again and again repeat with no notice to my replies.

          You do not know Khayyam.

          ""Islam discourages knowledge outside of itself."

          SR "100% false."
          Koran and prophet saying has many many encourages to knowledge.
          few of them:
          http://www.ted.com/profiles/bio/id/892832
          So what are so many Muslim scientists in history?
          please

          "Little example SR, the students"
          yes but it is not as large as liar media make it big. Please compare it with England. Iran has very high number of students and education in Iran is free.
          Also Iranians want to catch knowledge of other countries.
        • Jul 4 2011: "I was not taught Muslim fairy tales."
          computer and Internet is based on works of:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%E1%B8%A5ammad_ibn_M%C5%ABs%C4%81_al-Khw%C4%81rizm%C4%AB

          "
          According to a prominent German journalist, Internet infrastructure based on the findings Khwarizmi, the Muslim scholar and founder of the science of algebra is established.

          The report quoted Alshrvq Aytna, Wolfgang Gunter Lrsh, editor of the German newspaper Frankfurter Lgmaynh Tsaytvng, said if the theories and concepts raised by a Muslim scholar, Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa Khwarizmi was not in today's world of computers and the Internet did not know.

          Kharazmi Persian astronomer and mathematician of great scientists who called him the father of algebra.

          According to the report, some prominent figures in science, mathematics, computer science as the intellectual father of the famous scientist.

          Lrsh said Khwarizmi's works translated into Latin in medieval Europe, new ideas and helped to achieve their current accounts in the math and science."

          http://www.fundacionbankinter.org/system/documents/8193/original/Chapter_3_Understanding_the_three_basic_layers.pdf

          "I see your lifetime over here spouting Islam and the Quran. "
          this is only a small part of my life.

          "Only a fool would say that means the Earth is movin"
          I am sorry for you. I am talking you rational and respectful. And showing you enough proof and evidence. And you reply according to your personality. It is usual when you can not reply my by proof.
        • thumb
          Jul 4 2011: SR
          1. You suffer from confirmation bias. You will see a splotch of ink and it will appear to you as miracle of Islam.

          2. Islam permits lying (Taqiyya) to deceive the enemy (non-Muslims) during war. According to Islam, Islam is in a constant state of war with Dar al Harab – the non-Muslim world and hence it is not sin to lie to us.

          3. Lying is the greatest sin in Science.

          4. The article you referred to Re: “Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe” contains a warning “This article may misquote or misrepresent many of its sources. Please see the cleanup page for more information.”

          5. The cleanup page says “A major cleanup is ongoing relating to Jagged 85 (talk • contribs) who has made over 63,000 article edits since 2005. It has been found that many edits involve the undue promotion of Islamic and other non-European scholarship and achievements. In addition, there has been a severe misuse of sources: misrepresenting what a source has asserted; reporting only one side from a source; quoting out of context; inventing claims using a source related to the topic but which does not verify the claim.”

          6. “With contributions to over 8,100 separate articles, it is unlikely that all of Jagged 85's edits will ever be fixed. And even if they were, these Wikipedia articles have already been reproduced all over the net by other sites which use Wikipedia as a source.”

          7. “Besides Jagged 85, other problems at Wikipedia include the use of some very suspect and pro-Islamic secondary sources, such as Paul Vallely's "How Islamic inventors changed the world", which is used as a source to validate false (and often absurd)[1] claims of Islamic inventions in over twenty separate articles,[2] and the use of a fraudulent translation of Muhammad's 'Farewell Sermon', along with a second version, without a primary source. Attempts to add the authentic version taken from al-Tabari, Vol IX, next to the other two at Wikipedia, were met with resistance and was ultimately unsuccessful.”
        • thumb
          Jul 4 2011: 8. “..this and the other examples cited above, highlight the constant problems that Wikipedia faces for Islam related articles.”

          9. Your Wikipedia link to Khwarizmi says “Another epithet given to him by al-Ṭabarī, "al-Majūsī," would seem to indicate that he was an adherent of the old Zoroastrian religion.”

          Of course Muslims will claim he was a Muslim.

          In any case the article does NOT say that computers would not be possible but for him. That is ridiculous.

          The quote you have given is not from the article but “a prominent German journalist”. Journalists are not sources of original “knowledge”.

          9. SR “do you know what means Khayyam by wine?.. "knowing God"

          I see and what did he mean by “Houris and palaces and Heaven and Hell- These are but fairy-tales, forget them all”?

          That is not the only verse, almost every verse he mocks Islam. For example:

          “And that inverted Bowl they call the Sky,
          Whereunder crawling coop'd we live and die,
          Lift not your hands to It for help--for It
          Moves as impotently as you or I.”

          “Each poem of them is from one verse of Koran. But in poem language.”

          Khayyam was a smart guy. He well knew the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death.

          Your “proof” that the Quran says the Earth is moving:-

          “He who appointed the earth to be a cradle for you, and therein threaded roads for you, and sent down water out of heaven, and therewith We have brought forth divers kinds of plants.”
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/20:53

          Yeah right!
        • Jul 5 2011: Iqbal?
          "where did your role model get his idea. Your role model "
          he had many references including Indian. So what? You want to get tax for Indian references? Indian scientists did not use any Iranian reference? This is off topic.
          Any scientist uses past works and develops science.
          He is not my role model. He is one example of thousands.
          Only in medicine there is at least 5000 famous book like book of "Canon of medicine" of Avecina from old Iranian scientists.

          What you want to prove?
          Indian scientists? OK I already accept. I am not enemy of Indian scientists.

          Richard,
          "1. You suffer from confirmation bias. You will see a splotch of ink and it will appear to you as miracle of Islam."
          I said only one example of thousands. Anyway this is off tioc. You can start new topic for it.

          "Islam is in a constant state of war "
          this not allow lie. Lie is allowed in when a Muslim captured in battle war. Not always as you say.

          "Please see the cleanup page for more information.”"
          yes. but this not change the matter. There are many valid references for huge translation of Islamic books. I am happy for this. Spreading knowledge is always good.
          Also you know the power of church and pressure on scientists like guallilo.
          What destroyed power of church and pressure on sciense? Islam made fought curch and made situation ready for runessance.
          Anyway this is off topic.

          "The cleanup page says"
          OK. but this is only for clue. If you interested start new topic. Many refrences exist. And long list of translated books.

          I am not fan of Jagged 85 but this not change matter.
          You also use link of wiki.

          "constant problems that Wikipedia faces for Islam related articles"
          It is problem of western users of wiki with Islam. Not wiki itself.


          "would seem to indicate that he was an adherent of the old Zoroastrian religion.” "
          yes seem. anyway Iranians before Islam were Zoroastrian. Perhaps his fathers was. But he himself is famous Muslim.

          "In any case the article does NOT say that computers would
        • Jul 5 2011: "In any case the article does NOT say that computers would not be possible but for him"
          his science specially algebra had a great contribution in computer.
          the word "algorithm" which is used in logic of any computer is the western word from name of this scientist?
          Do you know a computer without algorithm?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra

          "“a prominent German journalist”."
          He is not only a journalist. He is specialist in Islamic history also.

          "I see and what did he mean b “Houris and palaces and Heaven and Hell- These are but fairy-tales, forget them all”? "
          you should not take them literally. Please write Persian poem to I reply you. I do not understand well in English. I think it means do not pray God for heaven but pray God for only Love of God and leave low level rewards like houri. God itself is best reward.

          "That is not the only verse, almost every verse he mocks Islam."
          Agree. But not take them literally. Write me in Persian to I explain the meaning of poem. They are all metaphor .

          "Khayyam was a smart guy. He well knew the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death."
          Yes all know this. So what? Do you have any prove he was apostasy?
          This is off topic. Please start new topic for poems.

          "Your “proof” that the Quran says the Earth is moving:-"
          that translate alone was not my proof.difference of فراش & مهد was also in my proof.
          I meant not pick a translate fitting your benefit and consider all translates. also translations are not suitable for research. and a Koran researcher should know Arabic. Arabic is much more complex to be understood by translate.

          Iqbal,
          "S.R, so i hear you are liars."
          Why I am liar?!
          Because Muslims translated 2 Indian book?
          what is the relation?!!
          I do not remember I said Muslims did not translate 2 Indian books.

          why you think I have problem with Indian scientists?
          All Scientists use other references and develop science.
          I love all people of knowledge and science.
          All peoples are beholden to all scientists and teachers.
        • Jul 5 2011: Richard,
          I agree Einstein,
          but calling others stupid is easy. but some times we are stupid that think others are stupid.
          anyway if you have any proof Khayyam was apostasy I happy to see it.
          also I have many proof he was a great Muslim.
          and poems should not be taken literally.
          if he really was apostasy and so much brave to declare his apostasy in his poems so a simple question:
          why he was not killed?
          this is contradiction.
          one time you say he was not Muslim and your proof is his poems.
          one time you say he was smart guy. He well knew the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death.
          so if he was smart why so clear say in poems he drink wine ,....?
          if he was afraid being killed Indeed he did not make such poems.
          all Iranians know what wine means in his poems. and no one wanted to kill a poet for such poems.
          did you know:?
          Khayyam had both Arabic and Persian poems.
          Khayyam was called: Imam of Khorasan, philosopher, Guide of God
          Khayyam was a follower of Avesina in philosophy
          Khayyam translated one of the famous speeches of Avesina in oneness of God.
          Khayyam was a Islamic leader (marja) (who knows the sharia laws perfect and people ask him)
          Sufi people of his time considered Khayyam a Sufi.
          now his tomb is a famous place in Iran and people meet there. (if he was known as apostasy his tomb would be destroyed until now)

          http://tanzil.net/#57:23
          yesterday passed, do not remember it
          tomorrow that has not come yet do not shout
          do not build on not came and past
          be happy the moment and do not waste time.

          http://tanzil.net/#25:6
          http://tanzil.net/#86:9
          the eternal secrets not you know not me
          and this puzzle saying not you know not me
          the talk of me and you is from behind curtain
          when curtain falls not me remain not you

          http://tanzil.net/#74:38
          http://tanzil.net/#52:21
          if I am drunk from wine of Moghan
          if I am infidel or pagan or ilolater
          each group has guess about me
          I am what I am by myself
        • Jul 5 2011: http://tanzil.net/#14:32
          who made sky and earth and orbits
          much pain made on sad heart
          made many lips like ruby and hairs like musk
          in the drum of earth and trick of soil

          Khayyam always reminds death that this is what Prophet and God sayd:
          "increase remembrance of death"
          prophet

          http://tanzil.net/#29:57
          http://tanzil.net/#6:61

          about human:
          http://tanzil.net/#23:14
          http://tanzil.net/#2:28
          there is a cup that creation wisdom made it
          hundred kiss of love made on his brow
          the potter universe such a beautiful cup
          makes and again hits it on land

          some groups of Muslims did not understand philosophy and said philosophers are nonbelievers and pagan. and phylosophist had a special meaning. they called Khayyam phylosophist.
          Khayyam said:
          the enemy said in false that I am phylosophist
          God knows I am not what he said
          دشمن به غلط گفت که من فلسفیم
          ایزد داند که آنچه او گفـت نیم
          لیکن چو در این غم آشیان آمده‌ام
          آخر کم از آنکه من بدانم که کیم
          http://tanzil.net/#40:19

          other poem defining metaphors by Khayyam himself:
          چندانکه نگاه می کنم هر سویی
          در باغ روان است ز کوثر جویی
          صحرا چو بهشت است ز کوثر کم گوی
          بنشین به بهشت با بهشتی رویی

          translate is something like this:
          when I look around
          in garden is a river from Kowsar (a special pool in Heaven)
          Deseret is like Heaven, say less about Heaven
          sit in Heaven with a Houri

          this poem says there is no need to wait for death to enjoy Heaven. right now you can feel they enjoys of heaven by having close relation to God.
          for example here Khayyam says I already see the Heaven every where.
          if you be a friend of God your spiritual eye opens and you see Heaven around yourself already before death.

          considering this then read this:
          Some for the Glories of This World; and some
          Sigh for the Prophet's Paradise to come;
          Ah, take the Cash, and let the Promise go,
          Nor heed the Rumble of a distant Drum!

          again and again:
          do not take Khayyam poems literally. they are metaphor.
          people who want to justify drinking wine (even some Muslims) abuse Khayyam
        • thumb
          Jul 5 2011: Dear SR I was just generally reflecting on the wisdom and observation of Einstein. Not any reflection on you.

          "why he was not killed?"

          Because he was much smarter than the Clerics of his time who would have killed him. For example he convinced them that when he talked about wine, he was talking about "knowing God" and when he said “Houris and palaces and Heaven and Hell- These are but fairy-tales, forget them all” he said it meant - do not pray God for heaven but pray God for only Love of God.

          And the Clerics of his time believed him. But for even the slightly intelligent his message was clear. I have his entire Rubaiyat.

          PS None of those verses remotely matches those of the Quran.

          Quran "And those who believed and whose descendants followed them in faith - We will join with them their descendants, and We will not deprive them of anything of their deeds. Every person, for what he earned, is retained."

          Khayyam "if I am drunk from wine of Moghan
          if I am infidel or pagan or ilolater
          each group has guess about me
          I am what I am by myself"

          Those people who he convinced were not very intelligent.

          "when curtain falls not me remain not you" No heaven no hell

          "One thing I know that time flies
          One thing is true the rest is lies
          A rose that once has bloomed
          Forever dies"

          Iqbal - remove one sentence from your post. Be wise. There are things you cannot say.

          Also SR Avicenna was no doubt a very intelligent man and a great scientist before his time, but he was not infallible. For example he said that the planets shone with their own light and he based that on the Quran. Also his science was advanced for that time, but doesnt compare with modern science.

          The same with Khwarizmi. Khwarizmi may not have been a Muslim and Islam had nothing to do with the achievements of these people.

          They achieved what they did despite Islam not because of it. What Islam is doing to your country is very apparent to everyone and that is what it has been doing to people since its birth
        • Jul 5 2011: "Dear SR I was just generally reflecting on the wisdom and observation of Einstein. Not any reflection on you."
          sorry for my misunderstanding about you. I apologize you.

          "Because he was much smarter than the Clerics of his time who would have killed him. For example he convinced them that when he talked about wine, he was talking about "knowing God"..."
          OK this is welcomed as a hypothesis. I hope you have enough proof for your hypothesis.

          yes Avicenna Khwarizmi Khayyam Hafiz Rumi and thousands other which are not famous in west All were great and Intelligent Humans. and no one said they were infallible. this is clear. they should be compared to their own time.
          also Einstein was not infallible.

          "Also his science was advanced for that time, but doesnt compare with modern science."
          I disagree this. the Avesina knowledge is still up to date. many drugs which have secret formula are made from his books. companies does not buzz this but they use Avesina formulas and sell them you at high price.

          "They achieved what they did despite Islam not because of it. "
          disagree. just show me some like them in Iran before Islam enter Iran.
          if no Islam they did not exist. Islam encourages knowledge and science very much. if 8 years Iran-Iraq war that destroyed Iran was not imposed to Iran and if Iran was not under sanction and pressure by world then I showed you thousands of Avesina to you today.
          today Iran is under pressure of world/sanctions/UN/US/Israel/media/TV/Hollywood/Internet/war/terror of Iranian scientists and many more pressure. no bank in world accept any transaction to or from Iran and many more problems. Iran is still building the destroys of Iran-Iraq war. the war between two Muslim country made by US and supported by near all countries.
          in such consolidation how people can be free to pay attention to science and knowledge?
          in such sanctions and economic problems people are working for food and min. life but hope to God and stand all pressures because of God
        • thumb
          Jul 5 2011: SR your comprehension is not very good.

          All those verses you have quoted are mocking God and the empty promises of heaven and threats of hell.

          "sit in Heaven with a Houri" does not mean "right now you can feel they enjoys of heaven by having close relation to God." It means that be in the company of a good liberated woman and you will be in real heaven, not the fictional heaven invented by Muhammad.

          PS also reading your passages about the Quran I came across this:

          "And He subjected for you the sun and the moon, continuous [in orbit], and subjected for you the night and the day."

          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/14:33

          Clearly talking about the orbit of the sun about the Earth, you have to be blind or totally in denial not to see that.
        • Jul 6 2011: Richard,
          "All those verses you have quoted are mocking God and the empty promises of heaven and threats of hell."
          please reconsider.

          ""sit in Heaven with a Houri" does not mean"
          1- some Muslims right now before death can see Heaven around themselves and can see Hell around some people when they are walking but that people themselves do not see. (not imaginary or metaphor. they really see)
          such believers have a two dimensional vision they see both universe at same time.
          like people who have NDE visions. but such believers always see other universe (Heaven,...) for example: http://goo.gl/f47ZC

          2- I translated بهشتي رويي to Houri. but now I see it was not a perfect translate. let explain that poem detail:
          if you want to understand this poem well first you should know Kausar well:
          please read this about kausar http://goo.gl/hoxQn
          Kausar generally means all benefits and heritage of Muhammad (PBUH) including his large children (I am his children also) today and also the knowledge left from him and the scientists trained in Islam and any kind of benefit left after prophet.

          2- at Judgement day there is no sun nor light nor water and people seek little water to drink. and the only one has water is Muhammad (PBUH) which has a large pool of drinking water and there are guards that limit nonbelievers from cumming near Kausar pool.
          and prophet drinks water to his followers and believers.
          the water of Kausar is a reward for learning knowledge of prophet and following him.
          Kausar is an unlimited pool of absolute Knowledge from God in this world and water in Judgement day.

          when Kayyam says
          چندانکه نگاه می کنم هر سویی
          when I look around
          در باغ روان است ز کوثر جویی
          in garden [=world, which has many rivers (different channels of knowledge)] flows a river [one source of knowledge like a book or a speaker who is a great follower of prophet which has knowledge from prophet like Avesina or...] from kausar [a river from pool of knowledge of prophet]
        • Jul 6 2011: صحرا چو بهشت است ز کوثر کم گوی
          desert [world] is like Heaven [because if you follow knowledge of prophet you are already in Heaven. (Heaven already exist only you should decide to be in it)] do not talk about Kausar [instead of talking work and learn knowledge and do deeds that you can have Kausar]
          بنشین به بهشت با بهشتی رویی
          sit in Heaven [already you can be in heaven by learning knowledge from one river of Kowsar] with a human who has Heavenly face [who has knowledge of prophet]

          بهشتی رویی means who his face is like face of who are in Heaven
          بهشتی رویی is not necessarily Houri
          بهشتی means heavenly
          رویی means face
          بهشتی رویی means heavenly faced. means who is worthy to be in Heaven. while it can mean Houri but according to context and saying "I already see a river from Kausar" [can be the teacher of Khayyam which was Avesina or other source of knowledge of prophet (Kausar)] heavenly faced is a human who is source of knowledge of prophet.

          "PS also reading your passages about the Quran I came across this:"
          please show me "orbit" in Arabic text.
          دَائِبَيْنِ ۖ means moving very exact and preplanned in a path. but it does not say about shape of path. (circular or other)

          Dear Iqbal,
          I love you and I am no hurt from you.

          "You keep talking about Avicenna & company endlessly. what is your point?"
          1- Avesina is only one example of thousands of Islamic scholars
          2- only Avesina and few other are known and famous in world but many many more exist
          3- it you study about Avesina and his life and history about him you see he was a little student of Islam and prophet Muhammad (PBUH) all they had was from prophet and Koran.
          they have many many sayings about prophet and Koran. there is no doubt all they had was from Islam. Avesina said:
          "whenever I had a scientific problem I did a pray and asked God and God sent the solution to my mind after pray to God"
          I mean western people do not know Islam and only know few Islamic scholars. I say all they had was from Koran and Islam
        • Jul 6 2011: Dear Iqbal,
          "SR, I'm sure you find the above discovery mentioned in Koran 1400 years ago. "
          yes Koran says the story of some people in history who had ages even more than 1000.
          so this means age of 1000 or more is possible.
          http://tanzil.net/#29:14

          but remember Koran has a clear rule for humans:
          http://tanzil.net/#29:57
          there is no exception for humans.

          کل means all with no exception.

          WHAT IS COMING IS NEAR
        • thumb
          Jul 6 2011: SR I have proven that the Quran is not from God but a product of the Arabs 1400 years ago, beyond reasonable doubt, to any impartial reader.

          Anyone can read and judge for themselves.

          I will no longer be taking part in this discussion.

          I have learned somethings from you too, so thank you for that. Iran has produced Omar Khayyam and it has also produced you.

          Alike for those who for TO-DAY prepare,
          And those that after some TO-MORROW stare,
          A Muezzin from the Tower of Darkness cries
          "Fools ! your Reward is neither Here nor There!'
        • Jul 6 2011: Dear Friend Richard,

          "Anyone can read and judge for themselves."
          agree
          http://tanzil.net/#2:256


          have a nice life and a nice death!

          you are welcomed to my home if you decided to travel Iran.
        • Jul 6 2011: ''SR I have proven that the Quran is not from God but a product of the Arabs 1400 years ago, beyond reasonable doubt, to any impartial reader.''

          ''O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allah. believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.''

          4:170

          ''And could you see when they are made to stand before their Lord. He will say: Is not this the truth? They will say: Yea! by our Lord. He will say: Taste then the chastisement because you disbelieved.''

          6:30

          ''We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them save with truth, and lo! the Hour is surely coming. So forgive, (O Muhammad), with a gracious forgiveness.''

          15:85


          ''With truth have We sent it down, and with truth hath it descended. And We have sent thee as naught else save a bearer of good tidings and a warner.''

          17:105
        • Jul 7 2011: "I say all they had was from Vedas and Hinduism."
          this is off topic here. please start new topic on Vedas and Hinduism to talk them.

          "In India there are some ascetic who lived for more than 500 years. "
          also in Iran some non-ascetic lived more than 300. I not heard for more than 350 still

          Yeap no one knows about death. only Islam has knowledge about tasting death.

          You better talk to a kid SR. I 'm not a kid."
          better first show only one who could break this law of Koran then say such things.

          Richard,
          "He doesnt know a few things, like the sun does not move around the Earth or set in it, where the sperm comes from, etc etc."
          I think you will repeat same thing even until your last seconds of life. even after death at judgement day! how much I type comments was wasted

          "I shall come when I can see your women walking on the streets with their heads held high,"
          already their head us held up.

          "without their faces covered"
          already their face is not covered. I think you think Iran is Afghanistan. covering face is not Islamic rule. its personal prefer.

          "or a head scarf obscuring their lovely hair."
          Muslim woman is special for her husband. not like western or New Zealand women and girls that are shared for all men to enjoy their beauty. consider what you say also about your sister and mother.

          "When you treat all your citizens equally."
          already is

          "When Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians are not considered half citizens."
          already are not. they have parliament member. which country is like this?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

          "When their testimony in court, is not equivalent to half that of a Muslim man. When the testimony of their women is not worth 1/4 that of a Muslim man."
          this is true. but first you should understand it then critique.

          "6,000 years and it seems the average human has learned little since then."
          irrelevant. many things is old but true.

          thanks for advice.
          not be sure about death.
        • Jul 9 2011: it is miracle in view of Arab poets. ask one of them.
          also it is for 1400 years ago and still has no error of any kind.
          also it is very beautiful in musical sound and poem and also in meanings. please hear to some recitations fro here:of Koran.
          for example "abdul basit" is one famous reader (reciter) of Koran. people love to sit hours and only hear to him reciting Koran. it is more beautiful than any singing.
          for example:
          www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuO6BkfCQmA
    • Jun 29 2011: "Again NEVER ONCE does the Quran ever say the Earth is moving. Because then again it APPEARS to be still."

      Koran says earth is moving. example:
      http://tanzil.net/#77:25 (earth is moving like birth with tight wings and moving fast)
      http://tanzil.net/#27:88 (earth is moving like clouds)
      http://tanzil.net/#20:53 (earth is moving like a cradle)
      http://tanzil.net/#67:15 (earth is moving like a docile camel/animal walking calm)

      "I am seeking the truth. Why do you say that I am not?"
      because you do not accept your mistakes honestly and insist on your dogma against Koran.

      "Is your definition of truth that the Quran is from God? "
      truth is defined by wisdom and accepting rational arguments even is not in your benefit.

      'Is your claim Quran is from God a HYPOTHESIS or an AXIOM?"
      hypo

      "We have accept or reject the hypothesis according to the evidence."
      I doubt the option of accepting Koran is from God exist in your mind. it seems your mind only has one unchangeable option and the option of Koran is disabled. please first activate it.

      "only taken the translations of the expert scholars "
      oh! you call biased anti-Islam who only say lie the expert scholars!!!
      why you not use valid references like www.al-islam.org or www.makarem.ir?
      your references show your level of honesty. you use links of un-honest enemies of Koran for knowing Koran!
      it is like I go and ask about Evolution from a creationist who is not honest and do not know Evolution and say any lie about Evolution.

      "If the translations are wrong then "
      translation are not wrong. to be honest Koran is very hard to translate (actually impossible) and translators did their best but still there is errors and you should not insist on a poor translate.

      "it is for you to tell me the correct translations of that verse"
      did you ask me honestly before you make your claims? or did you check translations from different Arabic references?
      you only insist and not accept my correct translate.
      I accept REAL and VALID evidence.
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        Jun 29 2011: SR "I doubt the option of accepting Koran is from God exist in your mind."

        Yes it does. But it has a very small probability not because of belief but based on evidence.

        Tell me honestly does the option of rejecting Koran is from God exist in your mind? Honestly please.

        Remember if only one evidence exists then the hypothesis has to be rejected.

        Remember also we are dealing with probabilities. What is the verse probably talking about? A red sky which is the simple thing it seems to be saying or the Sun turning into a Red Giant 4 billion years from now? Both could be true, but what is far more likely or probable?

        SR "I accept REAL and VALID evidence" but I am now giving translations only from your links - do you not accept even those?

        Again you have repeated "Koran says earth is moving. example:
        http://tanzil.net/#77:25 (earth is moving like birth with tight wings and moving fast)
        http://tanzil.net/#27:88 (earth is moving like clouds)
        http://tanzil.net/#20:53 (earth is moving like a cradle)
        http://tanzil.net/#67:15 (earth is moving like a docile camel/animal walking calm)"

        NONE of those verses say the Earth is MOVING. Please refer to the translations from your source and links I have shown you above. I am not going to repeat myself.

        Please show me the translation where they say the Earth is moving.

        SR "I ask you do not interpret Koran as you like and do not make story about sun and resting at night."

        I am not interpreting the Quran AS I LIKE! I am taking the translation from YOUR source:

        "And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point." Quran 36:37

        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/36:38

        Other translations
        Pickthall "And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him."
        http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslations.asp?Display=yes&SoraNo=36&Ayah=38&toAyah=38&Language=2&LanguageID=2&TranslationBook=3

        Royal Aal Al-Bayat Institute, Jordan "And the sun [which] runs to its resting-place."
        http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslations.asp?Display=yes&SoraNo=36&A
        • Jun 29 2011: Richard, the verse 27:88 is clearly saying that the mountains are moving the movement of clouds.....

          I can explain clearly all of your misconceptions about the Quran. I can really understand why you would think that this or that particular verse is a mistake by the Quran. But first, you must realize that you do not know something which is absolutely vital in understanding the Quran: Arabic.

          So, your claims have zero value and they are just a waste of time. You cannot continue reading translations and then making conclusion based on them. That is why when our scholars are asked about the permissibility of translations, they say that it is permissible, but they also say that it is impossible to translate the Arabic Quran into another language, because no language can encompass what the Quran is saying. I implore you to understand this.
        • Jun 30 2011: "Tell me honestly does the option of rejecting Koran is from God exist in your mind? Honestly please."
          exist but it is epsilon. please do not prejudice. it is because thousands of proofs and wondering facts about Koran and is not for dogma. while I do not see even one proof against Koran.

          "Remember if only one evidence exists then the hypothesis has to be rejected."
          agree. but all are doubt not rigid evidence.

          "Remember also we are dealing with probabilities."
          I am not. I only accept certain evidence.

          about red giant lets talk after earth. one by one.

          "NONE of those verses say the Earth is MOVING. "
          I am sorry for you. I ask you:
          1- read different translations of them and try to have a deep understand of the words in verses claimed to show meaning of moving earth.
          2- please write your own translate of them based on your research
          3- honestly judge they 4 verse MEAN (not strictly saying earth is moving) earth is moving or not?

          "I am not interpreting the Quran AS I LIKE!"
          yes Koran says sun is going to a rest place OK.
          but you said Koran says:
          1-you said sun rests EVERY NIGHT
          2-sun has has CIRCULAR ORBIT
          by story I mean above 2 item.
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          Jun 30 2011: J Ali/SR: "But first, you must realize that you do not know something which is absolutely vital in understanding the Quran: Arabic."

          Can't you see what you are saying? This is a business. Man-made. Languages are mankind's invention. You are buying it. I'm not buying it.
          (Life and all of it's vast richness and wonder is here for you to explore and understand. Put down the holy books.... To quote a well-know business slogan: Just do it.)
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        Jun 30 2011: Hi J Ali verse 27:88 says “And you see the mountains, thinking them rigid, while they will pass as the passing of clouds. [It is] the work of Allah, who perfected all things. Indeed, He is Acquainted with that which you do.”

        Clearly he is talking of the mountains and the mountains alone. He is also talking about the future tense. "they WILL PASS", not something that is happening on a regular basis every day.

        There is no passage in the Quran saying the Earth is moving equivalent to the one that says the Sun and the Moon are swimming in their orbits.

        To the unbiased reader the Quranic view is of a still, flat Earth with the Sun rising from it in the East and setting on it in the west. ("the sun [which] runs to its resting-place")

        I heard your contention that you cannot understand the Quran unless you know Arabic, but I have the following objections to that:

        1. Arabic is a language just like any other and so should be open to translation like any other language.

        2. If you claim Arabic cannot be translated into any other language, how can any non-Arabic speaker learn the language? It would have no equivalent in any other language

        3. If it is true that Arabic has no equivalent in any other language, why would Allah allegedly have chosen to communicate his alleged one true religion for all men in the only language that cannot be understood by all men – including most Muslims, since most Muslims do not speak Arabic?

        4. How is it that my understanding of the Quran, through English translations, is the same as Bin Laden’s on Jihad or Sheik Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz, the former Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia on the shape of the Earth?

        Sheik Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz issued a fatwa saying the Earth was flat in 1993.

        Both of them were devout Muslims, believed implicitly in the Quran, knew the Quran thoroughly, AND WERE ARABIC SPEAKERS!
        • Jun 30 2011: "they will pass"
          Dear friend. Koran says تمر . if you know little Arabic grammar it means IS passING.
          WILL is false translate.
          please first check different languages then conclude and do not conclude quick.
          for example please see:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.asad/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sarwar/27:88

          will pass is clearly false translate according to Arabic grammar and I wonder why they translated will pass. [ I think they taught by themselves: mountains are not moving! they are fixed. why Koran says they are moving?! lets translate will pass to stupid people do not befool Koran]

          "There is no passage in the Quran saying the Earth is moving"
          I showed you 4 verse. please research them.

          "To the unbiased reader the Quranic view is of a still, flat Earth"
          honest reader considers all translates and tries some in Arabic dics and then decides.

          "Arabic is a language just like any other"
          no no no. Arabic is amazing. no language like it.

          "how can any non-Arabic speaker learn the language?"
          for example:
          http://salamstudios.com/
          also online resources are available.
          this is nice:
          Quranic Arabic Corpus, an annotated linguistic resource which shows the Arabic grammar, syntax and morphology for each word in the Holy Quran.
          from:
          Language Research Group
          University of Leeds
          http://corpus.quran.com/

          but it is open source and newborn like wiki and has errors but good for learning Arabic.

          "only language that cannot be understood by all men "
          who said can not? it can but not simply by looking first translate. it needs more research.

          "since most Muslims do not speak Arabic?"
          Any Muslim Arab or non-Arab knows at least some Arabic. some non-Arab Muslims know Arabic better than Arabs for knowing Koran well and deep.
        • Jun 30 2011: about Bin Ladan:
          he is not Muslim. Alghaede was trained and militarized and supported with US to destroy true Islam. the 11 sep is all scenario of Zeonism to justify attack to Iraq and Afghanistan and killing millions of true Muslims.

          fatwa saying Earth flat:
          1- many of them are Courtier and their God is money. please do not judge about Islam by Muslims. many of Muslims are enemies of God.
          God said in Koran:
          http://tanzil.net/#4:136
          O believers! believe. why should a believer believe again? it means many believers are liars and in fact non-believers. they believe only in money.
          2- fatwa is like a doctor who decide on surgery. some times a doctor makes a mistake decisions but it is unintentional.
          Islam says:
          Muslims should research enough in Koran and Islam resources to find the detailed laws of every day needs OR a Muslim who has not such time should follow the best professional in Islamic knowledge he can find.
          who makes a fatwa is not God and perhaps have some errors. but a REAL BELIEVER Islamic marja (top specialist in Islamic knowledge like Ayatollah Makarem http://english.makarem.ir/biography/ ) usually has no error or very few cases of NOT PERFECT fatwa (not error).
          false fatwa are from Courtier religious leaders (Imam) and ignorant Muslims follow them.
          http://mannam.persiangig.com/11.jpg
          http://shia-news.com/files/fa/news/1389/1/11/4900_542.jpg
          please read my comments for Eduard here:
          http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html
          Imam is a general word and applies to different persons.
          the main meaning of Imam is: true successors of prophet:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_the_two_weighty_things
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        • Jun 30 2011: I do not know Bin Ladan is dead or alive.
          but I know Alghaede is now killing Shia Muslims in Pakistan. specially in Rurals.
          they have farmed mines around rural areas and controlling ways and people do not have food.
          please research who first time gave military airplanes to Alghaede.
          also can not you see facts showing 9/11 was a Plan of Zeonism?
          you are seeing crimes of them and still not believe?
          better to have a tripe to Palestine. perhaps you see and know them. then you believe conspiracy.
          perhaps such news are censored in your TV.
          anyway 9/11 conspiracy does not have few evidences.
          one day all secrets will be opened. its soon.
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          Jun 30 2011: Yes we all have our hidden agendas don't we? We all have our ball and chain we drag around and call it our anchor. We all have our misconceptions, our reasons, our differences, our references... True?

          "it will be soon."
          That kind of phrasing makes me uneasy. Are you implying something?
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          Jun 30 2011: Regarding religions being businesse:

          The purpose of a business is to provide a product or service that people need and to do it in such a way as to make a living from it. Businesses require consumers. Businesses exchange products or services for an exchange of payment. They compete with others for the same market.
          Holy Books
          Prayer books
          Dogma
          Relics
          Cathedrals
          Mosques
          Temples
          Hierarchies
          Yamakas
          Prayer rugs
          Wailing Walls
          Friday/Saturday/Sunday meetings
          Holidays
          Saints
          Martyrs
          Miracles
          Schools
          Tax breaks
          Followers
          Tender (money, souls, etc.)

          Religions are businesses. They do much good around the world. But they are businesses that man made. Because of that fact alone they also do much bad in the world.

          Now the business of life.... That's a business we all need to use more of!
        • Jun 30 2011: SR - Let's not get into conspiracy theories. They do not prove the Qur'an. Do you really think the Zionists control Al Queda and all Muslims terrorists are actually Zionist dupes?

          All the people that actually flew the planes were Muslims, (mostly from Saudi Arabia). They spent their whole lives learning the Islamic scriptures as did bin Laden. They and their cohorts quote Islamic scriptures and use the Islamic battle cry, "Allahu Akbar" (Allah is greatest). I suppose the Jews taught them that.

          Let's move on.
        • Jul 2 2011: Dear Jim,
          you are right about business of religion.
          but this is not true about ALL religions.
          at least I am sure about Shia Islam you can not find any religious leader being rich. they all have simple or poor life and spend their own money for poor people.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad-Taqi_Bahjat_Foumani
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_al-Sistani
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naser_Makarem_Shirazi

          can you show one Shia religious leader be a businessman in religion?

          also you are free to buy or not buy church/mosque ,...
          but you are not free to not buy death. you MUST buy death. death is sold you you.
          also about Hell if you do not care God and religion.
          in Islam people are free to go or not go to mosque. but finally you should decide about religion and God.
          this is a sign of true religion:
          http://tanzil.net/#36:21
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        Jun 30 2011: Dear SR you say "Koran says تمر . if you know little Arabic grammar it means IS passING. WILL is false translate. please first check different languages then conclude and do not conclude quick.
        for example please see:
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/27:88
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.asad/27:88
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/27:88
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/27:88
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/27:88"

        SR all the translations say it will happen "and thou shalt see the mountains, that thou supposest fixed, passing by like clouds .." shalt see means will see at some later date and only the mountains. Not the Earth.

        And what is that later date? When will that happen? The previous verse tells us 27:87, IT IS THE JUDGEMENT DAY "the Day when the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and the earth will start in fear,"

        Even if it is happening, it is describing what is happening on the Judgement day.

        Clearly this is not an every day event. It will happen, according to those verses 27:87 and 27:88 on the Judgement Day.

        "There is no passage in the Quran saying the Earth is moving"

        SR "I showed you 4 verse. please research them"

        What research do you want me to do? NONE of them in ANY translation say the Earth is moving. I have shown you. If they are moving YOU research them and show me a translation where they say the Earth is moving

        Show me a verse like Quran 21:33 “It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its ROUNDED course.” http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.yusufali/21:33

        It says the Sun swims along in an orbit. Obviously he is talking about the orbit around the Earth - what it appears to do.

        Show me a verse where it says the Earth goes in an orbit around the Sun, or indeed any orbit at all. Show me in fact any verse where it says the Earth is moving.

        J Ali I think you know what I am talking about?
        • Jun 30 2011: Dear Richard,
          you are right. the translations say "will move". but they are not correct. the Arabic word should be considered. not translate.
          about

          "it is describing what is happening on the Judgement day."
          this is one apparently possible interpret of this verse:
          about this verse Koran interpreters said two interpret:
          1- some say like you it is discretion of Judgement day.
          2- some disagree 1 and say it is for now because:

          1. and has conflict with other verses describing Judgement day. for example:
          http://tanzil.net/#56:5
          http://tanzil.net/#77:10
          http://tanzil.net/#78:20
          http://tanzil.net/#101:5

          2. there is no clear relation to past verse. although is not impossible.

          so it means current move of them.

          "What research do you want me to do?"
          please yourself translate them.
          when some says: earth is like x. and x is a moving thing then we can conclude earth is moving. please research them.
          Koran says earth is cradle. what means this?
          you want to Koran exactly say what you want?

          "each in its ROUNDED course.” "
          please consider all translates or even yourself try to translate it. as I checked only one translate used rounded. and all other not said circular or round. Koran only says sun is going in a special path to reach a resting point. nothing more.

          "Obviously he is talking about the orbit around the Earth - what it appears to do."
          !!!!
          it is not obvious for me. you are judging about Koran based on your Images about Koran. not based on what really Koran says.

          "Show me a verse where it says the Earth goes in an orbit around the Sun, or indeed any orbit at all. Show me in fact any verse where it says the Earth is moving"
          I already showed you 5 verse that MEANS earth is moving.
          but I currently can not show you a verse exactly say what you want.
          Koran is not write to be shown to you only and exactly what words you want.
          but if you research the 5 verse I showed you will find Koran say earth is moving.
          http://tanzil.net/#76:3
        • Jun 30 2011: Nop.
        • Jun 30 2011: SR - The Qur'an is supposed to be the exact word of God and you are attempting to prove that. Muhammad and Allah repeatedly said it is clear and contains clear proofs.

          If the Qur'an is the exact word of God why do we have so many additions to it in brackets ( ) added by the very human Islamic scholars in order to make it clear? We have no right to even read what is within those brackets and attribute it to God. Take away what is within the brackets and the message becomes muddled and impossible to understand. The material within the brackets influences the meaning and therefore has the potential to change the meaning. How is it you read what is within the brackets and say it the word of God?

          Am I wrong here? Do you have a Qur'an in Arabic that does not have any information added by the human scribes? You know there is not a singe copy of a complete Qur'an that can be dated to within 150 of Muhammad's death. So if it was written based on the oral reports ( isnads), the scribes must be very careful not to add or subtract a single word, lest they alter the exact word of God. If they have done that then no one is reading the correct Qur'an.

          Even so, Richard is right, language is simply a medium for humans to express themselves and is translatable. It may take a few more words etc. but the message is translatable.

          Based on what I have read, and I have read every word in the Qur'an many times and a good deal of the Hadith, the Islamic terrorists have a better understanding of what is being said than you do.
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        Jun 30 2011: J Ali you point me to a link that says the Sun moves around the centre of the Galaxy. I am aware of that.

        But the OBVIOUS apparent EVERYDAY movement of the Sun which everyone can observe EVERYDAY is its movement around the Earth.

        It APPARENTLY rises EVERYDAY in the East of the Earth, FROM the Earth and it APPARENTLY sets EVERYDAY in the west IN the Earth.

        To everyone the Earth is APPARENTLY still. It does not move. But the Sun appears to move around the Earth.

        All primitive societies believed that and the Arabs of Muhammad's time were a primitive society

        Now the Quran says about the Sun:

        21:33 “And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.”

        36:38 “And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him.”

        18:86 “Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring”

        These verses combined with the fact that not one verse in the Quran says the Earth is moving in an orbit, (and in fact not one verse in the Quran says the Earth is moving at all), perfectly matches the beliefs of the primitive Arabs, that the Sun moves around the Earth and the Earth is still.

        J Ali you imply that when the Quran is talking about the Sun going about its orbit, it is talking about the Sun moving around the centre of the Galaxy once every 230 million years, and not its apparent orbit everyday.

        I do not put 0 probability to that explanation, but examining those verses which explanation is more REASONABLE?

        Be honest and judge for yourself.

        All the verses that SR quotes as saying the Earth moves, do not say the Earth moves. He refers me to one verse which says the Earth is like a cradle or a bed, and asks me what that means. To him it means the Earth is going around the Sun, but to me it means the verse is saying the Earth is flat, another primitive belief.

        Now which explanation is more reasonable?
        • Jun 30 2011: Richard, I would love to reply and I have very clear answers. But I have already said that I will not. The reason is that I will have to give you countless lessons on Arabic for you to even understand what I am trying to tell you......this will take many many posts, comments and arguments....I am not willing to waste my time for this as I have, regretfully, in past conversations.....If you were me, you would have understood completely what I am feeling.... Do you know how frustrating this is?!

          The problem is that you are basing your arguments on translations that are vague and do not encompass the Arabic Quran......The Quran in Arabic is very clear and understandable... I am not saying translations should not be written....they are necessary and important..I am saying that it is very ignorant for you to base your arguments on translations.....your arguments should be in the form of honest questions..,,so that I can explain to you in Arabic.....If your attitude is that of someone who is arguing..we will never get anywhere as has happened before.....very long commentaries of the ARABIC Quran by our great modern Muslim scholars should be read and then you can ask, you can ask but not argue...because you will remain ignorant of Arabic.... The Quran is a miracle of Arabic.....the translations are not even Qurans, they are translations.

          I am very sorry if that disappoints you...but one thing I can honestly tell you is that ALL of your arguments against the Quran are false....and all are misunderstood...and that is so clear to me.... Maybe because of this misunderstanding, you think that I or any other Muslim believes what he reads with no thinking. While I have said many times that your arguments and all other arguments against the Quran have been mentioned in our own books, they are in fact full of them....we are not scared of them as your comments imply...and they are all answered in a clear logical way....

          Argue with S.R. who is more patient than me.

          Best of luck.
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        Jun 30 2011: Then SR falls back to saying that I have misinterpreted it because I do not understand Arabic.

        Sorry SR I don’t buy that.

        I don’t have to understand Arabic. The people who translated the Quran understood Arabic allright, better than you.

        You may claim that Arabic is very advanced language, (though it beats me how the primitive Arabs invented such an advanced language), but even primitive English has words and concepts like moving or still, spheres and planes, round and flat, beds and balls.
        • Jun 30 2011: ''I don’t have to understand Arabic.''

          Yes you don't have to fully understand Arabic to understand the Quran..A Muslim scholar can teach you all of the Quran and what it says..... But to read translations of some verses which seem, at first sight, to be wrong and then to start arguing against the Quran, based on that translation. That is what is wrong. The Quran is an Arabic book..it is the best Arabic piece of literature ever..you are arguing based on translations.... you will never realize this because you don't understand the Arabic Quran.... I can really see where you go wrong in all of your arguments, because I understand Arabic....and as I said, that is very frustrating to me, and I become very sad when I see people understanding the Quran like this...... The Quran is not for just Arabs......it is for everyone....Every human can fully understand the Quran, every human can reach his full potential, every human can see Allah in everything even if he is not an Arab....

          ''O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.''

          49:12


          But he needs to ask people who understand what the original Quran is saying and that as a result leads him to knowing Arabic....just like everyone can understand the Theory of Evolution but not through himself.... A teacher teaches him....
        • Jul 1 2011: Richard.
          you still do not accept Koran says earth is moving?!!!!!
          oh my GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD! who is this Richard

          or still do not accept Koran says FOUND IT.
          “Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring”
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY

          HOW MANY TIMES I SHOULD REPEAT?
          I PREFER TALK SOME ONE ELSE.

          "I don’t have to understand Arabic. The people who translated the Quran understood Arabic allright, better than you."
          they have not translated for such exact scientific debates. translate is for studying.
          there are many books for deep meanings of Arabic words. some times a single words has many pages of explain.

          I accept about English.
          when you want to analyses an old and important text you should learn that language.
          but for simple studying you can use translates.
      • thumb
        Jul 1 2011: SR first you tell me that I cannot understand the Quran unless I learn Arabic. I say there is no need, as it should be translatable to English. You say no - Arabic is unlike any other language and cannot be translated. I ask, how then can Arabic be learned? Then you direct me to a place where I can learn it.

        But then if I can learn Arabic, then I can translate it. After all I will have to translate it in my head to understand it. But why should I spend my time learning it and then translating it when there are already experts in Arabic, who will be far more expert than me, who have already translated it?

        And another example of your flawed logic:-

        I ask you to produce even a single verse in the Quran which says the Earth is moving. You produce 4 verses. NONE of them says the Earth is moving.

        3 of them don’t speak of any movement WHATSOEVER of anything, leave alone the Earth.

        1 of them (27:88) talks of the mountains moving, not the whole Earth, and something that will happen, apparently on the Judgement Day.

        Here are the two verses 27:87 – 88 “The day the trumpet blast is sounded whoever is in the heavens and the earth will be terrified, save those whom God please, and all will appear before Him in abjectness. You will see the mountains and think they are firmly planted, but they will pass away like flying clouds: Artistry of God who perfected everything. He is indeed fully aware of what you do.”
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/27:88

        You admit that it could be the judgement day but say maybe not. But whatever day it is, it is the day that “the trumpet blast is sounded” and “whoever is in the heavens and the earth will be terrified, save those whom God please, and all will appear before Him in abjectness.”

        Now this does not happen everyday, even if it is not the judgement day. I hear no trumpet blasts, nor am I terrified, nor do I appear before “Him” in abjectness. It hasn’t happened in all of recorded history.
        • Jul 1 2011: "But then if I can learn Arabic, then I can translate it. "
          YES but translate is not valid for research. its used for reading Koran.
          for research should know Arabic.

          "But why should I spend my time learning it and then translating it when there are already experts in Arabic"
          ok. ask them 5 verse I showed about moving the earth.

          "I ask you to produce even a single verse in the Quran which says the Earth is moving. You produce 4 verses. NONE of them says the Earth is moving"
          proof. this only claim.
          when Koran says earth is a cradle or a calm walking camel does not it mean earth is moving.
          when some one says that girl is like moon what it means?
          understand it. Koran is not only and only an astronomy book. it has all aspects together. its is also poem.

          "talks of the mountains moving, not the whole Earth"
          in New Zealand mountains are walking or fixed in earth?

          "You admit that it could be the judgement day but say maybe not."
          I proved most probably it is not for Judgement day. I said some interpreters say it.
          also this is not only verse about moving earth.

          "Now this does not happen everyday,"
          it did not say every day. but according to grammar the verb تمر means passING
          what means ing in New Zealand?

          "I hear no trumpet blasts, "
          trumpet blasts is for previous verse speaking about Judgement day.
          first you should prove this verse is continuous of past verse and is not a new subject.
      • thumb
        Jul 1 2011: You say there is no clear relation of verse 27:88 to its previous verse 27:87, but admit it is “not impossible”.

        This is very funny indeed. Firstly because it seems to clearly follow from the previous verse, and secondly if the Quran is indeed so disjointed, can we really believe it is from God, rather than from some rambling and confused individual?

        If this is true then you have already disproved the Quran.

        In any case, to any reasonable person, this verse is NOT talking about the Earth moving around the Sun, or revolving on its axis, or moving at all.

        But the final straw comes from your conclusion. After agreeing that it COULD BE talking about an event, that will happen on the judgment day, (which is only the movement of the mountains and not the whole Earth), you conclude “so it means current move of them”.

        You have 100% certainty in your conclusion after admitting doubt in your premises!!

        No wonder when I asked you “Tell me honestly, does the option of rejecting Koran is from God exist in your mind?” You replied “exist but it is epsilon” (tending towards Zero). In your mind you are not prepared to accept that possibility, no matter what the evidence.

        But to conclude, you claim the Quran is from God because, according to your claim No. 5 “Koran says sun is moving”

        1. I have shown with the evidence above that MOST PROBABLY the Quran says the Sun is moving around a stationary Earth and sets IN the Earth at night.

        This casts serious doubts about the Quran, but is not 100% conclusive. I will grant you 0.1% doubt in this conclusion and J Ali's claim that the Quran maybe talking about its 270 million year journey around the centre of the Galaxy (although there is absolutely no evidence for this), rather than its daily journey around the Earth.

        BUT, and here is the clincher:
        • Jul 1 2011: many verses of Koran in independent of previous verse and this has no problem.
          its like a new sentence with a new subject in a text.

          "After agreeing that it COULD BE talking about an event, that will happen on the judgment day"
          yes could be. so you should first prove it. I showed some verses for disproving your idea.

          "You have 100% certainty in your conclusion after admitting doubt in your premises!!"
          not 100% but I showed proof for it.

          also it is not the only verse saying earth is moving. I showed 5.
          but you simple say:
          they do not say earth is moving. with no proof.
          those 5 verse MEANS earth is moving.

          "1. I have shown with the evidence above that MOST PROBABLY the Quran says the Sun is moving around a stationary Earth and sets IN the Earth at night."

          evidence for "around earth"?
          set in mud is APPARENTLY (FOUND IT).
      • thumb
        Jul 1 2011: 2. Whereas you pointed out “Koran says sun is moving”, you omitted to mention that THE KORAN ALSO SAYS THE SUN STOPS MOVING

        (36:38 “And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place;”)

        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/36:38

        This is obviously talking about the Sun resting at night.

        Now whether we are talking about the Sun’s apparent daily journey around the Earth, or its spinning on its axis, or its actual journey around the centre of the Galaxy, one thing is certain – the Sun never stops moving, there is no fixed resting-place.

        This conclusively, 100% proves that the Quran is false.

        Hallelujah SR ! Please do stop fretting about your imaginary Hell, which Islam frightens its followers with like the Bogey-man, and start enjoying life.

        Engage in song and dance. Try Ceroc or Rock n Roll.

        Do you listen to music? I invite you to listen to the Hallelujah chorus. It is very uplifting.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

        Enjoy. This is very different from your puritanical Iran.

        Finally in meeting this challenge about the Quran, we have probably inevitably offended people who revere Islam very much, but as Elam has put it so well "I just don't know how to say my piece about Islam without calling a spade a spade."

        This is something that Salim had pointed out right in the beginning that would inevitably happen.

        So Au revour, apologies and best wishes to you too.
        • Jul 1 2011: "This is obviously talking about the Sun resting at night."
          show me "night" in Koran or you are false.

          "THE KORAN ALSO SAYS THE SUN STOPS MOVING "
          Kora said sun is MOVING to a resting point. the stop can be 1 billion years later or tomorrow.
          not said at night.
      • thumb
        Jul 1 2011: SR "I PREFER TALK SOME ONE ELSE"

        Why SR? Is it because I point out the errors so clearly and you do not like it?

        SR "FOUND IT=APPARENTLY"

        Not to anyone who knows English. If I found you in your bath tub then I would actually see you in your bath tub, not apparently see you there.

        The Arabic word for "APPARENTLY"is not used in the verse.

        Here are the translations from many Arabic scholars:

        “Till he reached THE POINT OF THE SETTING SUN, and saw it set behind a muddy lake,” – Ahmed Ali
        “To the extent that when he reached THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,” Ahmed Raza Khan
        “until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,” Arberry
        “Until when HE REACHED THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he perceived it setting in a miry spring,” Daryababd (perceived it means he saw it)
        “Till, when HE REACHED THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,” Pickthall
        “To the West where HE FOUND THE SUN SETTING INTO A WARM SOURCE (spring) of water” Sarwar
        “Until when he reached THE PLACE WHERE THE SUN SET, he found it going down into a black sea”
        “Until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found it set in a spring of murky water”

        The Quran talks about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN - an actual place. There is no such place.

        I will come to your last argument which rests on a point of fact.

        "This is obviously talking about the Sun resting at night."

        SR "show me "night" in Koran or you are false"

        This is a false argument. If the Koran does not explicitly say the resting place is at night, that does NOT mean my argument is false. The implicit meaning is obvious.

        SR "Kora said sun is MOVING to a resting point. the stop can be 1 billion years later or tomorrow.
        not said at night."

        It does not say it rests at night but taking all those verses together it is obvious that is what the Koran is referring to.

        And the Sun will NEVER stop moving. Not tomorrow, not in a billion years, Not EVER.
        • Jul 2 2011: "Why SR? Is it because I point out the errors so clearly and you do not like it?"
          because this is your always behaviour:
          1- you make a false claim about Koran
          2- I disprove your claim
          3- you do not reply my prove and again and again repeat your first claim without disproving or notice to my reply.

          for example for moving earth I showed you 5 verse but you only say they do not say earth is moving without caring to my explains.
          or about earth setting in mud. I many times said it says "found it" which means apparantly. and you again repeat without replying my disprove.

          "Not to anyone who knows English."
          it is clear in Arabic and I think in English also. you are playing with words.

          "The Arabic word for "APPARENTLY"is not used in the verse."
          my friend! وجدها means found it or apparently.
          why Koran not said see it setting instead of found it?

          the word used in arabic is وجدها which is different of arabic words for seeing رويت

          "The Quran talks about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN - an actual place."
          you do not consider word وجدها found it which not means seeing.
          please check other words in Koran for seeing.

          "does not explicitly say the resting place is at night, that does NOT mean my argument is false."
          also not prove you are right. you are claiming with no proof.

          "The implicit meaning is obvious."
          not obvious

          "And the Sun will NEVER stop moving. Not tomorrow, not in a billion years, Not EVER. "
          astronomers should say it.
          the Big Bang says universe is expanding. and some say one day will stop expanding and some say expanding for ever.
          this verse can be related to stopping the expand of universe. perhaps.
      • thumb
        Jul 2 2011: ..
        SR
        1- It is YOU who make a false claim about the Koran
        2- It is I who disprove your claim
        3- It is YOU who repeat your first claim without noticing it has been disproved.

        SR "for example for moving earth I showed you 5 verse but you only say they do not say earth is moving without caring to my explains."

        You showed me only 4 verses and I have clearly disproved you. None of them say the Earth is moving. The Quran is unaware that the Earth moves, only that the Sun and Moon move, because they appear to. Look at the reply to Elam above.

        SR "or about earth setting in mud. I many times said it says "found it" which means apparantly. and you again repeat without replying my disprove.,,my friend! وجدها means found it or apparently"

        My friend ALL the Arabic experts who have translated that verse translate it as FOUND. He FOUND the Sun setting into a muddy spring. Google translate also translates the word as FOUND.
        http://translate.google.co.nz/translate_t?rlz=1C1CHMY_enNZ358NZ378&q=%D9%88%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%87%D8%A7&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wT

        FOUND = Discovered, established, ascertained, confirmed.

        You are a Persian speaker who has spent a lifetime studying the Quran in Arabic yet you know Bug--er all about Arabic. I give you a FAIL, a big Zero. Go back to class and learn Arabic then come back and talk to me.

        "does not explicitly say the resting place is at night, that does NOT mean my argument is false."

        SR "also not prove you are right. you are claiming with no proof"

        I am claiming with logic. From a reading of that verse along with the others such as "THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN", since the sun sets at night, the resting place it is obviously referring to, is the "murky spring" at the "THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN", at night.

        The Big Bang? Dont make me laugh. The Quran talks about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, and says it sets into a muddy spring, what would it know about the Big Bang.
        • Jul 2 2011: "You showed me only 4 verses and I have clearly disproved you. "
          which disprove?

          "None of them say the Earth is moving. "
          you only repeat this as disprove!

          "FOUND = Discovered, established, ascertained, confirmed."
          1-found it means apparently.
          2- even if your claim is true it is what he (zul-gharnanin) see not what God said. that is story of zul-gharnanin

          "SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN", since the sun sets at night, the resting place it is obviously referring to, is the "murky spring" at the "THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN", at night."
          you are mixing two different verse.
          even if there your mix is valid still:
          1- it says found it (apparantly) which is different of Arabic words for seeing
          2- even if your claim is true (little possibility) it is only what zulgharnin said. Koran also quotes what Faroh or many other people said. not any thing Koran quotes from people are accepted by Koran. it is only quoting.

          "The Big Bang? Don't make me laugh. The Quran talks about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, and says it sets into a muddy spring, what would it know about the Big Bang. "
          I can talk you about Big Bang in Koran but I prefer not talk you more.
          earth is enough.
          I prefer talk wise and honest people who accept mistakes. who are real truth seekers.
          I do not remember only one time you admitted one mistake.
          you are a proud and head strong man.
          Christian people are much better.
    • Jul 4 2011: Dear Richard, im with you in any word that you wrote, but http://cectic.com/comics/069.png.
      • Jul 5 2011: Dear Bran,
        why yourself not show your knowledge and logic?
        accusing others that they do not understand rules is not fair before play them.
        show your play.
        what law I not understand?
        what is accepted law in west is not accepted in Islam.
        but logic and wisdom is accepted anywhere.
        also this is not a war.
        this is a talk for developing knowledge of both side.
        to be honest I learned many things from people in TED.
        • Jul 8 2011: Dear S.R How to show logic and knowlede in topic when somebody wants to prove tha some old book is writen by nonexisting god. There are so many gods in this word, and you are convinced that your is the real one,and others gods are just fictional. You know,the concet of a spherical Earth dates back to ancient Greek philosophy, and they had like 17 gods, so they must be real one then . What we know about our universe and science is from people who were courious and wanted to understand the reality and laws of nature, you on the other side are taking that knowledge from humans away and giving all the credit to some god and you want to talk about logic. So now ,please tell me what have you learnd from Richard Dawson or people like him?
      • Jul 8 2011: Dear Bran,
        "How to show logic and knowlede in topic when somebody wants to prove tha some old book is writen by non-existing god."
        what is the problem?
        you think it is non-existing God and I think it is existing God.

        "You know,the concet of a spherical Earth dates back to ancient Greek philosophy, and they had like 17 gods, so they must be real one then ."
        who said who says earth is round is God?!
        Koran has thousands of wonders and they all together show this book is from God. not only this one.

        ". What we know about our universe and science is from people who were courious and wanted to understand the reality and laws of nature, you on the other side are taking that knowledge from humans away and giving all the credit to some god and you want to talk about logic."
        please notice.
        what proves Koran is that Koran is a book from 1400 years ago and still has no scientific error. I did not give the credit of science to Koran. I say if Koran is from humans so should have errors.

        "So now ,please tell me what have you learnd from Richard Dawson or people like him?"
        from Richard I learned he has dogma and repeats same things without notice or disproving my replies. but from other people on TED I learned many useful things.
        • Jul 8 2011: But why did god first creates our universe with errors, and life with so many errors then waited so long and write a book with no errors?
          And please find answer for me in koran for that god paradox
          If He can make such a mountain, there is something which He cannot do: He cannot lift the mountain,
          If He cannot make such a mountain, there is something which He cannot do: He cannot make the mountain.
      • Jul 9 2011: what error you mean has universe?
        if universe have any error will not work so exact and all planets and stars and everything will have accidents and our earth will not work so exact and calm around sun.
        all stars and planets have influence on each other according to gravity.
        please explain what error in universe you mean?
        I disagree your default that universe has error.
        please note that God has no limitation but universe is made of material and material has limitations and any creation with material has limitations according to properties of material.
        for example material has time, weight, dimensions, place that are limitations.

        "He cannot lift the mountain,"
        why you think God can not lift the mountain? do you have proof?
        for example you can cut your hand. but when you do not do this it means you cannot cut your hand?!

        "He cannot make the mountain."
        God can make any king of mountain.
        why you say that? I not understand what you mean.
        • Jul 9 2011: I'm probably out of my mind that I comment in this discussion as you've been beating the same dead horse all along and do not show any sign of rationality. Having said that, I need to emphasize Bran's point when he said you should not argue with a believer as they don't know they basic rules of the game. Also,

          1. What Bran means by imperfect universe is that if God was perfect and created the universe perfectly, why would there be the need to send Koran in the first place. If He needs to prove himself, then there was something wrong with his creation that he needs correction.

          2. The mountain example is a well known paradox and it is surprising that you don't understand it. Bran asks you "can God create a mountain big enough that he cannot lift?" If you say yes then it means God is not perfect and if you say no the same. I'm sure you don't have a convincing answer for that as you have not shown any sign of logical reasoning in your previous posts.

          3. I think it behooves you to first to prove existence of God and then proving the Koran is from Him. So it is upon you to partake in the "prove/disprove atheism discussion" and if you ratify their problems then you could give convincing answer here.

          4. It is very dishonest of you to try represent Persian scholars as whom they are not. It is intellectually wrong to interpret Khayyam's poetry by giving ridiculous metaphors. How would you feel if someone does the same thing to Koran and make outrageous claims.

          5. You and J Ali didn't give any convincing response to my previous comment. Say non-Arabic speaking people believe in Islam does not solve the logical contradiction that I pointed out exists in your reasoning.

          6, I've seen brilliant scientists from Iran but I guess when it comes to critical reasoning the education system does a very poor job. Quoting Wikipedia and Howstuffworks is not how you should conduct research. Everyone can alter those sources, you need to give credible sources.
        • Jul 9 2011: I only provided some of my observations and didn't mean to belittle you. In fact I should admit I've seen other religious groups that don't even accept science and find it against their religious. So it is at least good that you're trying to prove your religion scientifically although you're not using a scientific method at all.

          I'd suggest you read Spinoza as a starter to see how one gives rational proofs. You moreover need to improve your logic. If I may, I'd like to refer you to works by Bertrand Russell on religion. He has a great prose and I'm sure you'd enjoy.

          On the other hand, you've been blaming Westerners as ignorant of Middle-Eastern science and culture while you know little about their culture.
      • Jul 9 2011: "do not show any sign of rationality"
        I hope you show enough proof instead of accusing without proof.

        your points:
        1- what is the relation with error of universe?!
        God not need to prove himself. why you think so?
        sending Koran is not for proving God.
        people are free to believe or not believe God. but if some one wanted to believe there is enough proof for him. this is not need of God. this is guide of God.

        2- sorry It is not well known for me. I not heard it.
        "can God create a mountain big enough that he cannot lift?"
        God can created any thing. but this is not a "thing"
        what you say is impossible rationally at all.
        right now God is lifting all the universe by controlling its parts (stars, planets,...)
        please ask God possible things. can you fit earth inside an egg?

        3- proving existence of God is in other topics like:
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/1599/who_is_god.html
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/1602/why_don_t_people_believe_in_go.html
        please read my comments there.
        it is offtopic here. also proving Koran is in fact proving God.

        4-"It is very dishonest of you to try represent Persian scholars as whom they are not. "
        iran has thousands like them and all Muslim. no doubt. but some have more than one nationality. this not change matter. they are thousands. also past Iran was very large containing many today countries.
        it is not interpret. I showd enough proof. please read them. what means kausar? it is clear. not personal interpret.
        no problem other interprets are welcomed and we discuss them. anyway any interpret needs proofs and evidence.

        5- what comment exactly you mean?
        non-arabic people know arabic also and anso use specialists. you do not know medicine but use a doctor. perhaps you have arab friends or you can use dics and many websites for arabic language. this is a scape from argument.
        6- I know what you mean. there is lack of English references. which ref. you have problem?
        • Jul 9 2011: I only give you one example from the previous comment to show that you "do not show any sign of rationality." I don't intend to accuse you but you're very emotional on this topic and that hampers your judgement. For example you just said that: "proving Koran is in fact proving God." No it does not. You argument is like saying proving Relativity correct makes it from Einstein. Relativity can be correct without being produced by Einstein and one doesn't imply the other. This example alone does not show that you're irrational per se ans everyone makes mistakes but considering the fact whenever there is a rational argument your response is way off makes you so. My next points would also support my current argument so I'm not accusing you without evidence.

          1. In number 1 I simply paraphrased what Bran wanted to say and I don't have enough information to draw any kinds of conclusion on that topic. I am personally not sure yet that we poses free will so having the choice in believing is irrelevant now. So again you have to first prove that I have free will then try to convince me that I have the choice of believing in Koran.

          2. It is widely known as the "Omnipotence Paradox." There is a good article here http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omnipotence/ but I'm sure if you search you find other credible sources.

          3. I have to read those and get back to you on that.

          4. Writing lengthy discussion does not constitute a proof. You simply distorted what the poem says. The "Kausar" does not mean what you say in that context and you know it. Considering the rest of Kayyam's work it is clear that he doesn't mean what you want him to mean.

          The fact that other interpretations of Koran are welcomed as it is so open ended for anyone to abuse it is the source of many issues that we have such as extremist to use it in order to justify killing indecent people. Also the idea of having proof and evidence for your interpretation is again a fallacy as if there were proof then it would
        • Jul 9 2011: be logical deduction not interpretation.

          5. Again here you completely miss the point and being completely irrational. Not knowing medicine to recognizing a doctor is not as to not knowing Arabic to recognize validity of Koran. Medicine to doctor is as Koran to its sum of knowledge (roughly). So not knowing medicine is the same as not having that knowledge. Your example in fact emphasizes my point, you don't consult a doctor who you don't understand his language, of course in metaphorical sense.

          But as I said you don't get the point, or probably deliberately avoiding it. If knowing Arabic (by which I mean the culture and all you quoted in you discussion above) is a prerequisite to understanding Koran there is nothing to necessitate learning Arabic to me and if I don't know Arabic, Koran doesn't make sense to me so it is not valid to me and so on.

          6. All the ones which you referenced and are community edited.

          Anyhow, I won't probably come back though I'll read your response to this. Also, I didn't mean to offend you (particularly when I said you don't show any sign of rationality, by that I didn't mean you are incapable of being so but rather chose to not being so) thus if I sounded judgmental at points, my apologies.
      • Jul 9 2011: "although you're not using a scientific method at all."
        please note here is not a lab and we do not want to conduct a scientific research.
        what we claim is this:
        Koran has no conflict and contradiction with CERTAIN science (not hypothesis)
        this is a simple compare. this is not a scientific research needing scientific method.

        "I'd suggest you read Spinoza as a starter to see how one gives rational proofs. "
        no problem. but are you ready to read my recommended books also?
        please pick one of Spinoza proofs and write it short here.

        "You moreover need to improve your logic."
        sure. I am a simple human with errors and evils.

        please pick one logic of Bertrand Russell and show here.

        yes I know little about western culture
        • Jul 9 2011: ˝I am a simple human with errors and evils˝
          We all are that, we all have errors, that because we are part of evolution, and we are evolving from simple life to more complex one. I have no problem with that, we have proof for that. That is science. I know that after Im dead all my memmory and my personality is going to nonexistence and my body is going to decompose. What you believe is that after you are dead you are going to better place and live you life with all you dead ancestors and so on. So why would god in the first place create this life if there is another better one after this where is logic to that. Would not be more logical that god is trynig to overcome himself and improve ,rather than playing childish games with some universe and life. If you see us humans, the genius is always trying to improve values of things not to decrease them, god is doing it backward.

          And thank you Sometimes Someone for longer view, its hard for me because english is like my 3 language and isnt very fluent yet :)
      • Jul 9 2011: Dear Bran,
        "I know that after Im dead all my memmory and my personality is going to nonexistence and my body is going to decompose. "
        are you sure place of memory is brain?
        is science sure about this?
        Koran says memory is stored in soul and is protected by God after death and will be returned to your new body at Judgement day.
        also after death you have your memory but you leave your body and you will be soul with a transparent body until the Judgement day that you will have a new body like your current body. right now your body is made of soil (foods of your mother).
        brain is only a terminal between body and soul.
        http://www.al-islam.org/gallery/kids/Books/unseen/title.htm
        http://www.al-islam.org/the-hereafter/

        "What you believe is that after you are dead you are going to better place and live you life with all you dead ancestors and so on. "
        perhaps I go to a worse place. people change during life and I am not sure God has accepted my good deeds. God does not accept any good deed.

        "So why would god in the first place create this life "
        God Intended to be known so created world and human and free will and wisdom and good and evil.

        "Would not be more logical that god is trynig to overcome himself and improve"
        1- we have no power against God. did you decide to be born? or can you not die?
        2- God is not responsible to any one.
        3- the goal of God for creating human is not good life of human. goal is to God be known. if you consider the goal of life only welfare of human then OK this is not rational. but you do not define the goal of life and creation. God defined it.

        "trying to improve values of things"
        what you define value?
        some one defines calve food or enjoy or money or power or welfare or other.
        we define value nearing to God and making friendship with God.
      • Jul 10 2011: Sometimes Someone ,
        "You argument is like saying proving Relativity correct makes it from Einstein. "
        You are right about Relativity .
        But about Koran please note that no human claimed is writer of Koran. Even Muhammad (PBUH)
        Also by proving Koran I mean proving that Koran is not from any human. If this is proved there is no competitor for God.
        This is not all the argument. And please do not call me irrational before knowing the argument complete.
        If Koran be correct then who is its writer? (there is man proofs Koran can not be from human)

        "I am personally not sure yet that we poses free will "
        doubt between two option proved free will.


        "you have to first prove that I have free will then try to convince me that I have the choice of believing in Koran."
        Before that you should prove you are human then free will!
        Any topic has some assumptions. This is assumed in this topic and needs other topic. This is not irrational.

        "Omnipotence Paradox."
        This has a simple reply:
        it is logically impossible. If anything is possible God can do it. By definition God has maximally power and you say can God create a stone that can not lift?
        This is Impossible. First you prove it is possible then God can do it.
        Omnipotence Paradox is not a rational and logical argument. It is clear that impossible is not possible. Impossible is "nothing" that God can do it. If anything is possible God can do it. This is not rational. If you think much to such irrational paradoxes you will become crazy.
        Lets talk rational.

        "Writing lengthy discussion does not constitute a proof."
        Agree. Also saying this does not disprove it.

        "The "Kausar" does not mean what you say in that context and you know it. "
        Kausar is famous. If you do not know something please do call it distortion. Kausar is a famous word in Koran:
        http://tanzil.net/#108:1
        Please do not claim. If you have other possible meaning show it.
      • Jul 10 2011: "Considering the rest of Kayyam's work it is clear that he doesn't mean what you want him to mean."
        No problem. Why you not prove this. I can discuss any poem. I showed proof. But you only claim (about Khayyam)


        "The fact that other interpretations of Koran are welcomed as it is so open ended for anyone to abuse it "
        Agree. And many apparently Muslims do this. But when considering proofs and evidences of each interpret not all of them are correct. Interpret with no proof is not valid.
        About killing please note the emperor justifying Koran for killing never care about proofs and simply kills who want to disprove his interpret.
        Please see the life of:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        They wanted to disprove interpret of Muslim emperors and they killed or jailed.

        "be logical deduction not interpretation."
        My interpret of that poem has enough evidence. Also OK anywhere you feel I am interpreting false please ask me proof.

        "medicine"
        Many people accuse me I am hiding behind Arabic language and claim westerns can not understand Arabic. I mean you can use a Arabic professional like a doctor to ask if my claims about errors (not perfect) translations are true or not.
        I said many times: translation is suitable for simple studying. But when discussing on social Arabic words it needs deep knowing of meaning of that word and only one translate is not enough for a proof.

        "6. All the ones which you referenced and are community edited."
        Not all. www.al-islam.org is community edited? Or www.makarem.ir


        you can call me irrational. and I am not hurt.
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      Jul 16 2011: I am sorry just to clarify and save time before entering the fray. Is there any proof that could ever be given to SR or any other Muslim advocate that the Koran and Mohammed are wrong?
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    Jul 23 2011: Why do we invest so much energy trying to constantly prove and figure out if these small details written in the Koran were written by man or God? Does it really matter, is it that important that we must have arguments over them?

    Why do we focus so much on such minute details such as; 'Koran says sun is moving' - seriously, does this even matter?

    Can we please focus on the beautiful message the Koran is trying to express. The same message the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita etc are all trying to express -Loving, understanding, compassion... How come we are missing the point when it's that simple?

    Why do we keep doing this?
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    Jul 22 2011: I believe there are things that, as yet, are beyond our comprehension (Is there life after death? Is there life elsewhere in our galaxy or beyond? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven? Is there a Hell? Etc.) ; but what I have found out is that to use any religion as the only map for finding out what those answers are is like working with a single, antiquated tool.
    For the most part I've listened to the debate, since others within it had more expertise on the subject. Here are the questions I still have:
    Why would God's Word be so cryptic? And only in Arabic?
    Why would God create a world that includes immeasurable pain and suffering for some but not for others?
    Why would there be so many different religious beliefs, all claiming to be the Word of God?
    How can any book claiming to be the Word of God not include recognition of the fact that our understanding changes as we evolve and therefore come out with subsequent editions to address those changes?
    SR, I can almost hear your responses as I write. Your loyalty to the Koran is, I suppose, noble but in my opinion misguided. We agree to disagree I guess. When I tell you that I haven't read much of the Koran and don't intend to, I say that not because I don't care about finding out the meaning of life and beyond, but precisely because of it. I am fervent about it. I've also largely stopped reading other traditional religious books. I get it. I see what good they can provide and I see their limitations. I get it. I have moved on, I'm following other maps, listening to other people and to my own mind and heart. I am formulating my own thoughts.
    Elam and Richard, I have learned a ton from both of you. Not much in regards to whether or not the Koran is the word of God - I kind of knew that already, having been brought up in a Irish Catholic family. I think what I have been most impressed with is your intellect and ambition to seek answers based on all knowledge - not just one reference. Peace and thanks.
    Out of characters...
    • Jul 22 2011: Hi Jim, I ask the same questions, especially the first two. I'm glad you have decided to comment here, you have an open mind and I'm sure your quest for spiritual understanding will enrich your life as you look into various teachings and see how they square with your mind and heart. Your thoughts have helped me, and I appreciate that. I would like to respond to SR on a couple more threads but I may not have time. For now I would like to close with a few questions which I struggle to reconcile with my heart and mind.

      The Islamic perspective of God leaves us with a God that acts like a tyrant. He threatens and points out with great clarity that he will personally participate in torturing us, his creation, in Hell. Then he offers us a paradise if we follow his guidelines, that is wholly separate from him and contains physical aspects that is assumed to be of interest or value to us. Paradise seems to appeal to what some would want if they still had earthly concerns after death, which I find strange. Heaven in the Bible is spending time communing with God and being in God's presence, which seems to make sense if God is good and the source of all life and knowledge and indeed where we came from. To be fair there is also some depiction's of Heaven in the Bible which include streets of gold etc. As if we humans would be interested in that after death.

      Questions remain: How could God be willing and able to participate in tormenting and torturing his creation in Hell once their physical life on earth is done?
      How is this morally possible?
      How can God do this and also call himself Merciful and Forgiving, especially when he says that the infidel disbelievers will never be forgiven or released from their Hellish torment?
      How can God be Loving, Merciful, and Forgiving and still literally “curse” certain members of his creation? This is decidedly schizophrenic.

      It appears that only if one believes Allah is God first, can you justify this nonsense.

      Con't.
      • Jul 23 2011: Dear Elam,
        "The Islamic perspective of God leaves us with a God that acts like a tyrant. "
        God is both merciful and tyrant (tyrant while Just. without neglecting any little good deed)
        God is not only tyrant. he is tyrant for his enemies who fight God. not fir his friends. all human have equal opportunity in their life to be friend of God or friend of Satan (enemy of God).
        so better to see all aspects of God not only one aspect.
        it is like a fair boss who say: it you work well I double your wage and if work bad I fire you. then a lazy employee say: the boss is tyrant. and a clever says: what a bounteous boss.
        actually believing God is all Love and not send anyone to Hell is not a real Image of God and Indeed is false Image. if so then God is stupid to created world and life and human. from first God could send all to heaven and also if so then what about evil people who do any kind of evil deed and kill other and steal and so on then no punish! this human is equal to a good human who help others and loves humans? no. God is not all Love. God is Just.
        http://www.shiamultimedia.com/englishbooks1.html

        "that is wholly separate from him"
        paradise is not separate of God. humans can meet God in paradise. meeting God is one reward of human in paradise.

        "Paradise seems to appeal to what some would want if they still had earthly concerns after death, which I find strange. "
        human before and after death is same and one soul. only changing body. like changing cloth. and same interests.

        "How could God be willing and able to participate in tormenting and torturing his creation in Hell once their physical life on earth is done? "
        simply!. why God should be as you want? God is not responsible to anyone and do anything wants. this is mind of Jews who want to God behave as they want.
        why not? what is the problem with sending human to fire?
        its like you make a doll and burn it. doll has not any right against you.
      • Jul 23 2011: "How is this morally possible? "
        it is moral. because God said it to humans and gave humans enough time (life) to avoid it. so it is moral. if God did not say it, it was not moral.
        also do not compare the human-human relations to God-human relations. the existence of human is from God and human has no right from God. we should thank God that created us from nothing. but a human can not burn other human and is not moral.

        "How can God do this and also call himself Merciful and Forgiving,"
        God has two kind of mercy. the entire mercy only for life and is for all humans. giving food, water air eye ear think brain wisdom knowledge and so on is for all and is entire merciful. the especial merciful is only for friends of God and God never called himself merciful for his enemies.
        merciful has terms. it is like a bank says: we give loan. OK. with what term? any one can get loan?

        " especially when he says that the infidel disbelievers will never be forgiven or released from their Hellish torment? "
        when God said this? human has opportunity to return to God until his last second of life and God forgive him. one infidel disbeliever came to prophet and became believer while they spent all their life disbelieving and accidentally died same day without even one praying and prophet said he entered paradise because he returned God and God forgiven him.
        this is very amazing:
        http://tanzil.net/#39:53 (all)

        also Satan cheat some believers spending all their life believing at final seconds of life and they die disbeliever and God Hell. only powerful belief with enough proof can pass the hard induces of false beliefs by Satan before death. Satan do his best before death.

        "How can God be Loving, Merciful, and Forgiving and still literally “curse” certain members of his creation? This is decidedly schizophrenic. "
        Love of God is for who obey God and hate of God is for who disobey God. this is clear. God never said his Love is for all equal even cruel evil emperors.
      • Jul 23 2011: if God is righteous so should punish evil people and reward good people. this is clear.
        why God should Love all people even extreme humans?
        http://tanzil.net/#5:100
        http://tanzil.net/#11:24
        are they equal?
    • Jul 22 2011: Again, the Allah depicted in the Qur'an is an unabashed megalomaniac tyrant who forces his will on people. People who choose poorly need forgiveness and guidance but “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”
      Who among us has never done any wrong?

      Allah only does positive things for those who 'fear him and obey the messenger'. All others will meet him in Hell where he will take out his anger on them in violent acts perpetrating endless pain and humiliation that could only come from a source of hatred.

      Why?

      Did the creator of the Universe have such enormous hatred for what he was creating?

      Is he a Sadist torturing and humiliating us for his own pleasure? Humiliating humanity does not make sense in the context of God. Humiliating and tormenting people is negative and hateful energy which simply cannot be justified. Oh ya, 'might makes right', 'the ends justify the means'. This philosophy doesn't work. Life is a journey, the ends do not justify the means. The means, that which you do and think, represent your position in life. Doing bad things to get the result you want is a really poor, if not impossible, position for God to take in my opinion.

      Furthermore why does Allah say the Qur'an's message is a confirmation of Biblical scriptures which bring a message of love, and then change the message to one of spite and hatred. Love is only doled out (if at all) to those who follow his instructions explicitly.

      This scripture leaves me with a quiet assurance that Allah has got it all wrong.

      Gotta go.
      • Jul 23 2011: "Again, the Allah depicted in the Qur'an is an unabashed megalomaniac tyrant who forces his will on people. "
        people have free will. do not you see disbelievers?
        God forces his will to animals. they have no free will.
        believe with force has no value. this exactly why human go to paradise and animals no.

        “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”
        please first understand Koran well.
        what Koran says is this:
        1- God guides all humans EQUAL by sending prophets. prophets are not only for believers.
        2- some appreciate God and hear to prophets and get reward.
        3- some do not care prophets and curse prophets and say prophets are magicians and liars. they worth punish and the punish of them is: “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”

        so please note “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.” is kind of punish for select of them. this is not at first. at first God guides all equal. if you read the past and after of verses you get it.

        "Who among us has never done any wrong? "
        this punish is not for who do a wrong. God forgives thousands times. this is for who there is not even a tiny possibility of return to God and has done so many evil deeds that is drawn extreme in evil and has destroyed all bridges his behind. this is not for all evil people. few people has such condition. God is merciful and does not punish by one wrong. make sure this rule is not for you.
        this is for leaders and heads of evil in world. who are extreme evil with no little good.

        "Allah only does positive things for those who 'fear him and obey the messenger'. All others will meet him in Hell"
        no no. God is merciful. and forgives. please do not make a cruel Image of God. please see all aspects of God together.
        http://tanzil.net/#39:53
        I think you need some balance:
        please see this example of 422 verses about mercy of God to become balanced;
        http://tanzil.net/#search/root/%D8%B1%D8%AD%D9%85

        the mercy of God overtook his angry
      • Jul 23 2011: "Why? "
        because God is impartial ; just ; righteous

        "Did the creator of the Universe have such enormous hatred for what he was creating? "
        this is required for knowing God. if God not do this God will not be known.
        God love himself and Love means "no other" so who disobey God means loves a thing other than God and so God does not love who love anything other than God. obeying unless God means loving unless God. how God love who love a thing other than God?
        how God love who loves food more than God? or money or other things? who gives money to orphan because of God proves that Loves God more than God. and his claim of love is not lie.
        God loves only himself and and who love other thing God not love him. only who forget anything unless God become like God and same as God and God love him. not loving is known hate by us.
        God said:
        who Love me, I Love him. and who I love him I kill him. and who I kill his wergild is on me
        and who his wergild is on me, I myself am his wergild.

        "Is he a Sadist torturing and humiliating us for his own pleasure?"
        not for pleasure. God has no need to pleasure. this is attribute of God.
        its like blue that is attribute of sky.

        "Humiliating humanity does not make sense in the context of God."
        God is not human. human-human relation is different of human-God relation.
        we have nothing against God.

        "Furthermore why does Allah say the Qur'an's message is a confirmation of Biblical scriptures which bring a message of love"
        if you do more and more and more research and research and research you will find [perhaps at end of your life] that both are same message of Love. but if you not interpret Love as you like.
        a true love is what beloved wants. not what I want.
        when you could remove yourself and all be God then you and God are one like a drop in ocean and you become God.

        Hafiz:
        you yourself are your curtain, so stand up from between.

        [it means if you really Love God and leave yourself you meet God. even before death]
    • Jul 23 2011: Dear Jim,
      Questions like "Is there life after death? Is there life elsewhere in our galaxy or beyond? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven? Is there a Hell? Etc."
      Can not be solved using religion. They should be solved by wisdom of each human individually. Religion is the next step. If some one accepted God exist then asks how I can know and near to God. Religion of for nearing and becoming friend of God. Not for replying such questions.

      I try answer your hard questions with my limited knowledge:
      "Why would God's Word be so cryptic? "
      This is for Love. God loves human and made this game (world and life) and wanted to human know and find God little by little not at once. If human know God at once then human was angel and knowledge with no free will has no value. Its like a robot that you copy all the books to its mind. So finding and loving God while you have option to not know God and be evil has more beauty and value in the God-human relation. It is because Love.
      [also a girl shows her beauties step by step to make the man her lover]. This is kind of coquetry.

      "And only in Arabic?"
      Some reply from Koran:
      http://tanzil.net/#14:4
      http://tanzil.net/#41:44
      http://tanzil.net/#26:198
      http://tanzil.net/#12:2
      http://tanzil.net/#39:28
      Also Arabic is very powerful language.

      "Why would God create a world that includes immeasurable pain and suffering for some but not for others?"
      God is Just and gives reward to cover pains. In this world or after death.
      Also pains and sicks are for healthy humans to think and know the value of Gift of God (health)
      "Two gift are unknown: health and security" prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

      Also all humans have pain and problems even rich people. No problem is impossible In this world.
      "life and problems are mixed" prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

      "Why would there be so many different religious beliefs, all claiming to be the Word of God?"
      God built the belief and religion inside the human and human can not live without any kind of belief. Religion is one inner
    • Jul 23 2011: Dear Jim,
      "Why would there be so many different religious beliefs, all claiming to be the Word of God?"
      God built the belief and religion inside the human and human can not live without any kind of belief. Religion is one inner need of human.
      Also belief to a superior being (even a deity or money or cow) is an inner need of human.

      "understanding changes as we evolve and therefore come out with subsequent editions to address those changes?"
      All holy books (like Torah Bible Koran) are the same from same God and the next is the subsequent edition of past. Humans make them different and make them for themselves. Book are for all humans and not for a special nation.

      "Your loyalty to the Koran is, I suppose, noble but in my opinion misguided."
      No problem. I am happy to you help me I understand my mistakes.

      "I am fervent about it. I've also largely stopped reading other traditional religious books. I get it. I see what good they can provide and I see their limitations. I get it. I have moved on, I'm following other maps, listening to other people and to my own mind and heart. I am formulating my own thoughts."
      I do not want you accept Koran and Islam. I only want you start hearing others and using your own think instead of media think for you.
      You have open mind and you worth the name of human!
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        • Jul 11 2011: ''well i have a bad experience. i have witnessed a suicide bomber shouting "ALLAHU AKBAR" before he blew himself up. ''

          many of my family members have been killed by suicide bombers,,,, if you think they are just attacking non-Muslims then you are wrong....they kill more Muslims then non-Muslims.... I hate them just as much as you.... they are not Islam.
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        • Jul 11 2011: ''now tell me why you call them un-Islamist.''


          ''And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.''

          4:93

          Doing What Islam asks you to do is not Islam.....Islam is belief and righteous action..and not just action....they do not have the right beliefs and they kill innocent humans... Read about Imam Hussain and Ashura.... the Army who massacred the Progeny of the Prophet on that day did pray and so on....but they were not Muslims..
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    Jun 23 2011: "Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict."

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html

    http://i.imgur.com/9RH4F.jpg
    • Jun 23 2011: Dear Simon,
      no problem.
      I strongly claim all claimed contradiction about Koran are apparently contradiction and are doubt. but no one can prove them certainly and they are false.
      please also you first reply what is your goal?
      do you want to seriously know truth?
      are you ready to pay the price of truth?

      I can not write a book about the long list of those apparently contradictions in Koran.
      so please pick any you like.
      and then what will happen if it was wrong?
      only spending some time talking? or you really are seeking truth?

      Dear Christophe,
      also you please pick one you like and also please reply and then what will happen if it or any other you showed was wrong?
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        Jun 23 2011: My apologies for the image link. It was a little juvenile but funny :)
        I'm going to reply to this and your comment above to Christoph.

        Ok to begin with yes I do seek truth. I place a higher value on truth than anyone I know.
        There are many points I would like to raise here but it would derail the conversation into various tangents so I'll refrain.
        Keeping on topic, I will present one contradiction from the Koran that I assume you will attempt to clarify in some way as to dispel the contradiction.
        I will say however that even if you dispell all self contradicitons from the Koran it wouldn't nessessarly be true. There are no self contradicions in the story of "goldilocks and the three bears" but that doesn't mean it's not fantasy. The presence of contradictions gaurentees falsehood/error, their absence does not gaurentee truth.

        Here is my specific contradiction for you:
        Non Muslims are OK - "Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve." 18:29
        vs
        Non Muslims should be killed - "They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve ... take them and kill them wherever ye find them." 4:89
        • Jun 23 2011: Dear Simon Tovey,
          "I will say however that even if you dispell all self contradicitons from the Koran it wouldn't nessessarly be true. "
          agree. but usually any book written by a human has self contradicitons if search inside it.

          "Here is my specific contradiction for you"
          first:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/18:29
          second:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:89

          "take them and kill them wherever ye find them"
          who are "them"? non-Muslims? why?
          the second is not about non Muslims. it is about some Muslims.
          if you read its previous verse you see:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:88
          "groups concerning the hypocrites"
          it is about hypocrites Muslims which are living in Muslim community but in fact they are spy and trying to destroy Islam and Muslims.

          why non-Muslims think Muslims love to kill non-Muslims?
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqYNydEH5Sk
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuMLZGKh4HU&playnext=1&list=PL1B867BF2B1E509C9
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ5dN68tvQc
        • Jun 23 2011: Simon, if you had any understanding of Arabic and if you had given the translation with what was after the part you gave....

          ''And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve; surely We have prepared for the iniquitous a fire, the curtains of which shall encompass them about; and if they cry for water, they shall be given water like molten brass which will scald their faces; evil the drink and ill the resting-place.''

          you would have know that the verse is not telling you to disbelieve and it's not giving you the right to do so........the verse is a warning, just like if someone is going to hit your child and you tell him ''come on, hit him if you want, lets see you do it....'' as a warning.....Arabic is vital here to understand this verse and all the verses of the Quran..

          that is why after the part you mentioned immediately it says ''surely We have prepared for the iniquitous a fire......''

          the verse never said its ok do not believe.....

          therefore there is no contradiction in place........

          just for your information.....Islam doesn't tell us to kill any non-muslim....why is it that the Quran is always quoted out of context?!........it only tells us to kill non-Muslims who attack us in war.....then we have the right to kill them in self-defence just like any other human community which is attacked.....

          read this verse

          ''Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.''

          60:8

          nearly all of the so called ''contradictions'' in the Quran are the result of no understanding of Arabic and misunderstanding translations which can be vague.....so these are all contradictions which apply on something which is not the Quran.....
        • Jun 24 2011: Dear Simon Tovey,
          what is your reply?
          please honestly reply and if it is not contradiction honestly respect truth and say it is not contradiction.
          Richard forced me to get verifications from people about seeing my comments.
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        Jun 24 2011: It seems that the quotes I gave were rather selective. My trust in that particular site has gone down considerably. Regardless, I dont think the contracition has been entirely dispeled. However the text and translations are so vauge as to allow for such a range of possible meaning that discussions of this kind are near pointless.
        While I still think the Koran will have internal contradicions I don't have the time or the energy to explore them with you. There are otheres in this conversation obviously more knowledgable than I in these matters so I'll leave this point for them to take up.

        Hypothetically speaking, lets say the Koran is free of contradictions:
        So what? As I have previously stated, many other works of fiction are without contradiction too.
        • Jun 24 2011: ''However the text and translations are so vauge as to allow for such a range of possible meaning that discussions of this kind are near pointless.''

          I could not agree more......The Quran is so beautiful that you cannot grasp its beauty in another language other than Arabic...translations lose a lot of meaning...I mean, if you listened to the Quran in Arabic you would probably be in tears........and that is why I ask people to read the Quran in Arabic....study the Quran in Arabic, continuously ask the scholars of Islam who have spent their lives studying the Quran......they are not afraid of questions...they love them....they want to explain the truth and beauty of Islam to people...... the likes of Bin Laden are not scholars or even Muslims......

          ''Islam is submission, submission is certainty, certainty is the affirmation of the truth, and affirmation of the truth is acknowledgement, acknowledgement is performance of what is obligatory, performance of what is obligatory is action''

          Ali Bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him)

          Islam is knowledge and action.......Islam is peace....Islam is purity....Islam is love....Islam is the truth

          ''And say "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."

          17:81

          ''Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good acceptance of Allah. that is the supreme felicity.''

          9:72

          when you love someone.....the greatest happiness for you is not for yourself to live in heavens from him......it is the fact that the one you love has accepted you....that is the greatest happiness.......


          ''My lord, I did not worship you in fear of Hell.....and not in longing for heaven......But I found you worthy of worship, so I worshiped you.''

          Ali Bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him)

          I hope you can read Islam from Islam.......and not from people who hate Islam.
        • Jun 25 2011: "Regardless, I dont think the contracition has been entirely dispeled.'
          no problem. show other contradiction.
          how many you like. and we talk it.
          please only be honest in talk.

          "While I still think the Koran will have internal contradicions "
          how you think this while you have no evidence?

          "Hypothetically speaking, lets say the Koran is free of contradictions:
          So what? "
          any book of a human specially at 1400 years ago Indeed has contradictions. this means Koran is not from human. and next step is that find source of Koran. perhaps it is God!

          "many other works of fiction are without contradiction too."
          this is impossible. any text from human has contradictions.
          human mind is not perfect and is changing, has forgetting, has errors ,...
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        Jun 24 2011: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/day.html

        Take this one for example.
        I verified it with your translation, and it corresponds.
        • Jun 24 2011: Christophe,

          firstly what do you mean by 'my' (S.R?) translation?

          secondly, let us look at the first verse mentioned.... 22:47

          lets read it in full and in context......unlike the website...

          ''Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is just like a thousand years of your reckoning.''

          The prophet would tell them that if they would not believe they would be punished......so they would ask him to hasten the punishment....but Allah knows the right time to punish them..........so it then finally says that there is no difference between one day and a thousand years (thousand is the largest number in Arabic) in God's sight..and that it does not make a difference....now or later......again, this is clear in Arabic...and in context....

          so this verse is out of question......I don't understand why people quote out of context....but anyway...

          so there are only two verses now in question.......

          the second verse.... 32:5

          ''He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.''

          this verse is talking of the day of judgment...... ''then it ascendeth unto him in a Day'' this means that everything will go back to Allah....the end of the universe which is part of the Day of judgment

          bearing in mind that Day means ''period of time'' which is obvious.......this verse talks of a one thousand year period which is PART of the Day of judgment in which '' it ascendeth unto him....''

          it did not say that ALL of the Day (meaning period) of judgment was one thousand years...it was talking about one part...

          the third verse- 70:4 - talks of fifty thousand years....it is talking of ALL of judgment day...because the verses after it talk of everything that will happen on that day.....

          so the day of judgment is divide up into fifty stages each of which is like a thousand years of our counting....

          Contd....
        • Jun 24 2011: That is why when our sixth Imam Jafar Al Sadiq (peace be upon him) was asked about these verses he said.....

          ''There are fifty stages on the day of judgment, each stage is like a thousand years of your counting. And then he read this verse : ''in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.''...

          I hope that answers your question...... as you can see.....we need to know Arabic and context well along with enough knowledge of the Quranic verses.... and we also need to know what the Prophet and his Holy Progeny have said before we can start claiming that there are contradictions in the Quran....

          thanks...
        • Jun 25 2011: Dear Christophe Cop,
          "http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/day.html

          Take this one for example.
          I verified it with your translation, and it corresponds."
          first you should know there is two word in Arabic and in Koran usually both translated to "day"
          they are نهار and يوم
          you easily can check then in dictionary.
          they are both translated as day. but there is difference between them.
          this is consequences of نهار in Koran:
          http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D9%86%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%B1
          and this is consequences of يوم in Koran:
          http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%85
          you can check translations.
          can you do a search and say what is difference?
          or accept my honest explain of their difference and do not claim i am interpreting Koran for my benefit.

          2)
          the translate of 70:4 is not honest in your link.
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/70:4

          your link says:
          " Unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years. "
          and they have removed the first part of verse.

          the 22:47 says the length of يوم (only in a special case means day) "with Allah" is "a thousand years of what ye reckon. "

          but the 70:4 never said length of يوم (only in a special case means day) "with Allah" is...

          so where is the contradiction?
          if second said "with Allah" then it was contradiction.
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        Jun 24 2011: @ J Ali

        So now you are doing an interpretation of the Koran... which means it cannot be taken literally.
        This means that one needs to agree to what the 'right' interpretation is... (or are there objective standards for it, and if so, what are they).

        There is no description in the Koran that says how it should be read and interpreted... or what does and what doesn't be taken literally.
        As such it is not reliable on its own and needs heuristics.
        A source of knowledge that can be interpreted in different ways is not a reliable source of knowledge.
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    Jun 26 2011: Hey want to watch a scientist argue against Muslims on these very same points? Check this out!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T5Pm7qLH50

    PZ Myers is "ambushed" by iERA, an Islamic group who goes around spreading the "science" of the Koran. If you don't know who PZ Myers is, he is the author of the blog Pharyngula http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
    • Jun 27 2011: can yourself say one rigid proof?
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        Jun 27 2011: Proof that god doesn't exist? I don't have to. The same reason I don't have to disprove the existence of unicorns; I don't have the burden of proof. You are the one making a claim, that there is this other thing in the universe.
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    Jun 25 2011: SR - With all due respect, of course....

    Which passage in the Koran says that you must defend it against all disbelievers?????? Why do you do it? For selfish reasons? To make your faith stronger? To become more knowedgeable? To understand and empathize with others? To secure a place in heaven?

    This conversation seems to have a common thread and that isthat humans have very strong beliefs!!!!! Beliefs are not truths. Truths are not facts.
    If you allow the church and state to become tangled together, you suffocate. Allow them to flourish seperately and each will benefit you and make you whole. As I've said before, "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's" It's the only way I see usa living together without being at each other's throats all the time.
    • Jun 26 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
      "Which passage in the Koran says that you must defend it against all disbelievers??????"
      why you think I am defending Koran against disbelievers?
      I am spreading truth. disbelievers are not important for me.
      truth seekers are important for me.
      truth seekers can be believer or disbeliever.
      Koran does not need defend. God defend it. please read:
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/15:9
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/41:41 , 42
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/41:40
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/72:26 ,27

      is Bible protected by God like Koran?

      "Why do you do it? "
      I am spreading my ideas. should not I?

      "To make your faith stronger?"
      also this is from my goals.

      "To become more knowedgeable? "
      yes also. I learn about other religions and beliefs.

      "To understand and empathize with others? "
      yes

      "To secure a place in heaven? "
      no. for it many other ways exist.

      "This conversation seems to have a common thread and that isthat humans have very strong beliefs!!!!! Beliefs are not truths."
      not all people are the same. and not all are not truth. but most beliefs are not truth.

      Truths are not facts."
      what you mean?

      "Allow them to flourish seperately"
      this is not God wants. God wants the opposite. if I do such it is disobeying God and it is sin.

      "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's"
      as I said before this is not for all conditions. this is for when a believer has no chance and no power against Ceasar like time of Jesus (PBUH). and a wise human does not suicide. but when there is min. req. chance then this is not what God wants.
      are you sure Jesus (PBUH) said that saying for all times and did not say only for time of suicide?

      "living together without being at each other's throats all the time."
      living together with who? with who support and kill peoples in other lands and destroy and occupy their homes? this is what Jesus (PBUH) said? living with then and God angry with you?
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    Jun 25 2011: S.R. my friend, why you are opening up same discussion again and again? If you believe something just believe it with out being cause of any harm to anyone.
    Do you want to be a preacher of Islam here in TED? If so just declare it.
    If you find The Quran to be the only book to be true and provides all solution, just go with it.
    Next time you need new way of energy development don't look in to any book of science just get it from there.
    Next time you need any remedy for a disease , don't look in to the book medical science just get it from the Quran.
    Destroy all nuclear plants your country has, and create new ones as per knowledge of The only True book to you.

    Just don't try to swallow everyone what you believe please.
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      Jun 25 2011: Let's hope that by the time he opens his 4th thread about the Koran, people will get tired of him and stop engaging him.
      • Jun 25 2011: people are free to engage which topic. and they can decide themselves.
        if a topic is not interesting it will automatically stop engaging him.
        but real facts show topic is Koran is hot.
        the past topic had 500 comments and this became very long only 2 days.
        so please let people decide freely on topic and do not impose your opinions and if you do not like a topic simple do not read it.
        also if you have any rational argument about Koran based on your own research and wisdom you are welcomed (not coping from biased and anti-islam links)
    • Jun 25 2011: Dear Salim,
      "S.R. my friend, why you are opening up same discussion again and again?"
      1- Christoph wanted to we talk about proving Koran
      2- TED admin forced past topic to be closed soon.

      each person has interests.
      "Do you want to be a preacher of Islam here in TED? If so just declare it."
      I declared before many times. I want to spread truth about God. and what he wants. Islam is general and I only want to spread true Islam.

      "If you find The Quran to be the only book to be true and provides all solution, just go with it."
      i want to spread ideas of Koran and TED is for this. any problem?

      "Just don't try to swallow everyone what you believe please. "
      people are free to hear me or not.
      if you are not interested simply do not read this topic.
      TED has enough topics for you if you are not interested in my topics.
      I do not know why I should not spread my ideas while others can. this seems discrimination.
      there are many repeated topics about atheism, evolution and other.
      why when my topics are repeated (because of forces of admin on closing) then they are bad?
      do you have this idea about all repeated topics or only Koran?
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        Jun 26 2011: Dear S.R. Ahmad

        iIf there was request to have this discussion again that's fine. I definitely don't support any force closure of any subject unless it's valgur, discriminating, attacking or racial. Neither I support any discrimination to you or anyone.

        Yes you are right I can ignore topics that I am not interested in, but just opened up this as it is the same subject where I participated , and seen the effort of Richard with which you agreed to be acquainted with Sceintfic processes so opened up again . Seems all the efforts of Richard went in vein!

        !Well that's your liberty though, it really doesn't make sense once you agree to learn reasoning and logic in scientific way than ignoring it and going back to your belief and circular logic.

        I know how sacred and unquestionable The Quran is to Islamist like you, so just making you aware; such discussion will open up lot points which you will be unable to digest.

        Have lot more discussion .....
        • Jun 27 2011: we talk much bit with no proof of any of claims.

          "ignoring it "
          ignoring what?
          that talk was not finish and was forced by admin to close. can you show a clear proof there?

          "I know how sacred and unquestionable The Quran is to Islamist like you"
          no no no.
          Koran is open to question. all can ask about Koran. Muslims are open to question.

          "just making you aware; such discussion will open up lot points which you will be unable to digest"
          i do not know what you mean.
          I am sure about Koran 1000% and I have no little doubt.
          can you say one example?
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        Jun 27 2011: Dear S.R, sorry for my poor english though those are pretty simple as I couldn't communicate right with you. Don't know how you will continue with friends like Richard whose mother toungue is English.Well by saying "Ignoring It' I echoed your suggestion of Ignoring subject of not interesting to me. Though I explained why I opened this thread.

        If you are open to face all the challenges that's fine ...... just take care no one being targeted with Blasphemy law of any country .........with something someone can't digest due to your discussion.

        As you are asking for example I am just reminding my question and your answer related to inheritance math in your other thread , which is self explanatory and guess still fresh in your mind though was deleted by admin.....

        From your many comments I understand , what you saying is all the translations of The Quran are invalid what ever may be the language (though you mentioned English specifically as that's the common language between us, I can refer translation of my language but you will not understand , as I will not if you say something in Fersi)...... To understand The Quran one must have mastery in Arabic.... am I right ?If so, what does it mean ?
        • Jun 28 2011: I agree you.
          Koran is like an ocean.
          any one can eat from it as the size his stomach (knowledge and Arabic language) but this not mean who do not know Arabic will not understand anything from Koran.

          the problem is that the people with very negative [false] Image about Islam and Koran who never read even one page of Koran come and copy paste some lies about Koran that they are very professional debates about Koran which need prophecy in Arabic language. such cases are few but those people only insist on them and leave majority of Koran.
          most parts of Koran can be understood in English.
          but if some one want to fight Koran using errors of translations there is not few options for him in translations.
          all people can read and use Koran. but who wants to discuss about Koran should know Arabic and read Koran many times. unless simple should say:
          "I do not know Koran"

          its like I do not know astronomy and physics and and i start critique Big Bang theory. or I do not know biology and I start critiquing Evolution theory.
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        Jun 29 2011: Dear S.R.I think again it's my poor English for which you are talking something else than what I raised in my last post.

        You haven't answered my question, and commented supporting something what I didn't say !!
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        Jul 5 2011: was loud and clear, please try again.
  • Jun 24 2011: Proving something requires truth, which in element means verifying a result. This is completely impossible with an ancient text. Even if it predicted certain things happening, this can just be put down to coincidence. No less explainable than a winning lottery ticket.

    Proof requires evidence, religion is called "faith" as it requires belief without evidence.
    • Jun 24 2011: "Proving something requires truth"
      wisdom can determine truth from false.

      "Proof requires evidence,"
      evidence is that Koran and not having conflict with wisdom and science.
      " religion is called "faith" as it requires belief without evidence. "
      religion is based on WISDOM and KNOWLEDGE. unless it is superstition .
      • Jun 25 2011: Wisdom;

        the ability or result of an ability to think and act utilizing knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense, and insight
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    Jun 23 2011: .
    The Quran is not the only book which contains "facts" about the world.

    In fact, all great religious texts contain some science and some predictions which proved to be true.

    Some examples:

    -Buddhist scriptures -- much older than the Quran -- say that you can eliminate physical pain purely by meditation. Modern medical science has shown this to be true.
    -Hindu calendars are super-scientific and based on exact calculations of the elliptic trajectories of heavenly bodies, long before the advent of telescopes
    -Taoist scriptures say that one day we will prove that a single thing can be in two different places at the same time. Quantum-mechanics proved this to be right.

    In short, it's not because the Quran contains some scientific facts, that the entire book is factual - and thus demonstrates the "fact" that "god exists". Let alone that the book itself would be written by god or his representative on Earth. This is a flawed way of reasoning.

    When I write a book containing 99.9% facts, but then I add that the world is ruled by a purple spaghetti monster, you cannot conclude that this latter fact must be true, simply because all the other facts are true.

    If you did conclude that, you are a-scientific and illogical.
    • Jun 24 2011: Dear Laurens Rademakers,
      "In fact, all great religious texts contain some science and some predictions which proved to be true"
      agree. but they all are partially truth and Koran 100% truth with no error.

      please note Koran is from 1400 years ago.
      do you know any book from 1400 years ago 99.9% true today?
      • Comment deleted

        • Jun 25 2011: "all religious books are 100% true."
          Koran says there is only one God and some say there is lots of God.
          both are truth?
          is it possible 2+2 equals both 4 and 400?
          is 1=20?

          so all are not truth.

          "1. If you play with your Arabic language, i'll play with Sanskrit language. "
          make sure I not play. enemies of Koran play. so I try show enough proof for Arabic language.

          "If you say Arabic words has no equal English translation"
          some of them not have. for example there are more than hundred word for different types of camel or sword in Arabic. how many has English? Arab has one word for each type of something.

          "4. If you say Allah is the true God, i'll say Bahama is the true God. "
          if you mean there is only one God then they are the same with two name. but Koran is 0% deviated over time while other holy books are partially deviated Intentionally.

          "5. if you say Koran is 1400 yrs ago, i'll say Vedas 5000 yrs ago."
          truth is important.
          a book that says there are 20 or more God can not be considered truth 100%.

          "6. If you talk about Avicenna, I'll bring out Newton.'
          OK and we are wise enough to know which are correct about God. each person has his own prophecy. Avesina was a philosopher. was newton philosopher?

          "its pointless to prove either your religion or my religion is the best and the truest."
          no. it has point. we as a wise human should decide about:
          1- God exist?
          2- if exist what wants from us?
          3- does God accept any kind of religion?

          "can you please interpret what i meant? "
          sorry. talk clear what you mean.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jun 26 2011: "Square root of 25 has two solutions but the absolute values remain the same. The existence of one God is impossible. Koran is not proof. "
          please do not play with math.
          clearly reply:
          is it possible one book says there is only one God exist and other book says 20 Gods exist and both are truth?

          "all holy books are 100% true except Koran."
          please do not write claims and your beliefs with no proof. if you want to do so I am not interested talk you. if it is rational logic then there is two possiblity:
          1- all holy books are 100% true except Koran.
          2- Koran is 100% true except all holy books.

          please be rational or do not talk me.
          claim is not proof.

          "for example sun setting in the muddy waters"
          I replied it in this topic. please read it. it said he "found ir" setting in ... it means address of a special place (probably near Azerbaijan). read my comment for it.

          do not misquote Koran and do not cut "found it".

          "Same with other languages."
          OK. does they have more than 100 word for same thing?

          "Nice jokes. Vedas are same 5000 yrs ago, 100 yrs ago, 1 day ago."
          i studied veds. you know northern people of India are mainly Iranian immigrants in ancients at time of ARIA at Iran. and the source of veds is poems Iranians taken to India from Iran.
          do you have a valid proof for source of vedas?

          "What was the take on Koran by Avicenna?"
          are you really read his works? he made revolution in philosophy. mr. j Ali said some books for it in this topic. please look them.

          "Leave that to kids to decide. "
          OK seems you not care about after death. so wait to see it after your death when you have no chance for decide.

          "Those are simple English words. Try again. "
          i tried. sorry my language is not English.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jun 27 2011: Dear Iqbal nazir,
          "You are degrading all other religion which at least shows some reverence to their God. "
          it is only rational. religions have grade according to wisdom. it is not by me. it is by wisdom and truth and science.

          "" Koran is 100% true except all holy books."
          Again Koran can't be, because Koran degrades God."
          please do not misquote me.
          I said logically different possibilities exist. consider all.

          why Koran degrades God.
          God had unlimited high grade in Koran.
          God should be cow to not be degraded?
          what is your define of degrades?
          do you know perfect what Koran says about God?

          "Koran is making such a senseless claim and a fictional book is not a proof, may be a good read."
          such sayings is not from a rational and polite human. so I am not interested talk such human. if you have any rational argument show it unless be silent and only hear to learn.

          "don't try to give new meanings to your Arabic word. The translations are made by experts in Arabic language. plz don't fool people. "
          open your eyes and see "found if" in translate of that verse. but enemies of Koran cut it in their links.

          "ok give the relevant word in Arabic which has 100 meanings.
          I said before. camel. or sword.

          I wish you could say one thing with rigid proof.
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    Jun 23 2011: :D

    "2- Koran said earth is round"

    how cool, it was well known to the ancient greeks :) eratosthenes even calculated its diameter. we don't even know how old that knowledge is.
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      Jun 24 2011: ^^^^^^^^^
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      Jun 24 2011: @ Krisztián ""2- Koran said earth is round" how cool, it was well known to the ancient greeks :) eratosthenes even calculated its diameter. we don't even know how old that knowledge is."

      And how cool when it does not even say so, but says it is flat. And the Sun moves around the Earth and sets in a muddy spring at night.

      Quran 18:86 "Till, when he [the traveller Zul-qarnain] reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring, ..."

      About the Flat Earth too many verses to recount.
    • Jun 24 2011: "how cool, it was well known to the ancient greeks"
      so why church said earth is flat?

      @Richard Dawson,
      "And how cool when it does not even say so"
      I do not know how much time I should explain you. I think your eyes has problems. I should ask your verification to see my comment from now on.
      please say what means these verse in Koran:?
      شرق=East
      مشارق=plural form of شرق and means Easts (many east)
      مغزب=West مغارب=Wests
      please check in Arabic text of Koran it is مشارق or مشرق
      you can easily check difference of مشرق and مشارق in a Arabic dictionary or ask an Arab friend.
      http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2837:5:7%29
      there are many verse in Koran using Easts and Wests.
      if earth is flat then should have only one east and one west. so why Koran says Easts and Wests.
      please open your eyes and read these 3 sample verse and then reply. do not forget to reply about these 3 verse. you only repeat one poor translate of one verse without notice to other verses about earth. I think this is more then 4th time I am explaining you about earth is round in earth and you only repeat your first claims as if you have not seen my replies. you made me angry by this behavior. I doubt you want to learn truth about Koran. perhaps you have other goal by repeating same thing.
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/37:5
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/70:40
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/7:137
      also there are many other verse in Koran showing earth is round. what you refer is only one translate that translator could not find any better word in English for مددنا that you are abusing that translation.

      "Sun moves around the Earth "
      this is lie. Koran only said sun is moving. but not around earth.
      show that verse if you are not liar.

      "sets in a muddy spring at night."
      it is for saying address by a prophet inside a story and is the sign of a special place in earth.
      you or who said this lie mixed parts from different verses to make lies about Koran.
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        Jun 24 2011: what church? before columbus set sail to find the new world, the school of salamanca, a catholic group of scholars, heard him about the plan. columbus argued that the earth can be circumnavigated, and presented calculations about the size of the earth. the school of salamanca argued that those calculations are known to be incorrect, and the actual size of the globe is much greater. the school of salamanca was spot on, columbus was wrong. luckily, they found a new continent, and thus they were saved from the otherwise inevitable death of the entire crew, and the loss of all ships.

        columbus was a lucky fool. the catholics were scientific. pity that later they turned against science.
        • Jun 25 2011: "what church?"
          I mean generally. church was controlling science at time of Koran appearance.
          please say their dates to compare with date of Koran.
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        Jun 25 2011: SR there is a simple but most important principle in science:

        If the evidence contradicts your beliefs, you must reject your beliefs. Not try and force-fit the evidence to your beliefs.
        • Jun 25 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
          agree.
          also you respect this principal about your beliefs about Koran.
          and please prove your claims instead of showing principals.
          you claimed Koran says earth is flat.
          please prove it.
          you refer to a poor translate about مددنا
          مددنا does not mean flat. it is a verb.
          please look:
          http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2850:7:2%29
          that means making a high/low land into a rough land. how it means earth is flat? flat has two meaning. one means rough one means like a plate.
          I am showing you evidences to you do not think I am justifying meaning.
          also Koran does not have only that one verse about earth.
          if you really want to see what Koran says about earth and do not have other goal you should consider all that verses together. not only one that apparently fits your goal.
        • Jun 25 2011: SR - You are right, I looked up the sun setting in a muddy spring verse and it is actually 4 verses, 18:83 - 86. My mistake.

          These verses are all together in the Qur'an and they make a complete thought. It is not as though we have brought them all together from different parts of the Qur'an. It is quoted exactly as the Qur'an has it. So why do you call it a lie?

          I am only referring to these 4 verses which are strung together chronologically in the Qur'an. No one has "mixed parts from different verses to make lies about Koran".

          It says the sun set in muddy, hot water and that Dhu'l Qurain went there.

          If that is not what it meant, and these words don't mean what they say, then please tell us what they mean.
        • Jun 26 2011: Dear Elam,
          "So why do you call it a lie? "
          I said about this:
          "Sun moves around the Earth "
          Koran when said this?
          Koran only said sun is moving. not said moving around earth.

          "I am only referring to these 4 verses"
          yes. I said that for Richard not you. I think you are a honest seeker of truth.
      • Jun 25 2011: S.R. - The verse Richard is referring to about the sun setting in a muddy spring is as follows:

        Qur'an 18:83 "They ask you about Dhu'l-Qarnain [Alexander]. Say, 'I will cite something of his story. We gave him authority in the land and means of accomplishing his goals. So he followed a path until he reached the setting place of the sun. He saw that it set in black, muddy, hot water. Near it he found people."

        S.R. you say, "it is for saying address by a prophet inside a story and is the sign of a special place in earth.
        you or who said this lie mixed parts from different verses to make lies about Koran."

        Nope. Just one verse, Qur'an 18:83. Based on the facts that we have today it's a good chance it is a lie though.
        • Jun 25 2011: "S.R. - The verse Richard is referring to about the sun setting in a muddy spring is as follows:"
          1- it is not one verse. it is 4 verse. from 83 to 86
          please see:
          http://quran.al-islam.org/query.php?t_arabic=on&t_shakir=on&t_yusufali=on&t_pickthal=on&t_ali=on&sura=18&SavedSura=1&fromaya=83&toaya=86&searchtext=

          "Nope. Just one verse, Qur'an 18:83. Based on the facts that we have today it's a good chance it is a lie though."
          Richard said:
          "And the Sun moves around the Earth and sets in a muddy spring at night."
          I meant that. it not from one verse. and where Koran said sun move "around earth"? I hope he accept his mistakes. I do not remember he accept his mistakes. only copies from links of blind and deaf enemies of Koran and seems not see my replies and repeat same thing again and again without replying my replies.
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          Jun 25 2011: SR "1- it is not one verse. it is 4 verse. from 83 to 86"

          The 4 verses tell the story of how Dhu’l-Qarneyn travelled to the place where the Sun set in a muddy spring. 18:83 - 86 :-

          83 They will ask thee of Dhu’l-Qarneyn. Say: I shall recite unto you a remembrance of him.
          84 Lo! We made him strong in the land and gave him unto every thing a road.
          85 And he followed a road
          86 Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu’l- Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness."

          What "mistake" are you talking about? Its says this guy Dhu’l- Qarneyn was given a road to the west which he followed till he came to the place where the Sun set in a muddy spring.

          And you have not refuted even one thing I have written.

          Without the shadow of a doubt the Quran says the Earth is FLAT.

          Your title is very Apt - you are trying to prove the Quran correct despite its many errors.

          PS Doesnt the mighty Allah know that the Jews DO NOT say that Ezra is the son of Allah? Any Jew or Christian or anyone who has read the Bible will tell you that. How come Allah is ignorant of the religion and beliefs of the Jews? But this can easily be explained if Muhammad wrote the Quran or many bits of it, because he was quite ignorant of much of the Jewish and Christian religions.

          9:30 "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah,..."

          Just one of the hundreds of errors in the Quran.
        • Jun 25 2011: "What "mistake" are you talking about?"
          "And the Sun moves around the Earth and sets in a muddy spring at night."
          "The 4 verses tell the story of how Dhu’l-Qarneyn "
          this refers to this part:
          " and sets in a muddy spring at night."
          this first part:
          "And the Sun moves around the Earth"
          is made of two part:
          "And the Sun moves " which is mixed from other part of Koran.
          "around the Earth" this is not in Koran.

          mistake is this:
          "And the Sun moves around the Earth" and also mixing different verses.
          also other mistakes explained in other comments.

          "And you have not refuted even one thing I have written.'
          oh!. read other comments carefully. for example you claimed دحاها has no root.

          "PS Doesnt the mighty Allah know that the Jews DO NOT say that Ezra is the son of Allah?"
          Allah knows. let talk it after earth. one by one.
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        Jun 25 2011: you don't seem to understand. church never held the position that the earth is flat. it seems that you simply ignore facts, and rely on your beliefs instead. but if you have sources that proves your point, go ahead and post them.
        • Jun 26 2011: Dear Krisztián Pintér,
          you are right. the church believed Ptolemaic model. and in Ptolemaic model the earth is round. first time Aristotle proved earth is round at 340 B.C. and before it Hellene believed earth is flat. at medieval church believed:
          1- sun is turning around earth
          2- earth is center of universe
          and church forced Galileo to accept it.
          also better to know the source of knowledge of philosophers like Aristotle were other prophets. the concept of God and souls and many philosophical concepts of Hellene always had source in prophets.
          I checked my sources saying church said earth is flat and they were poor and my references say church said sun was moving around earth. only few poor links 9weblog) said earth is flat about church.
          its good to check Koran about earth turning around sun.
          Koran says sun is moving to a special place and will stop in that place.
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/36:38
          perhaps it means the expansion of Big bang will stop one day.
          about earth moving around sun I should study it in Koran.
          also please note it was my personal mistake and Islamic references does not say it about church and it does not show any error in Koran.
          anyhow thanks for your point. I learned it from you. and I changed my idea about church about this subject. appreciate.
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      Jun 25 2011: SR we have been through all this before!

      The verse 55:17 “Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests!”, you agreed refers to the two apparent Easts and Wests during the Summer and Winter Solstices.

      The apparent Easts and Wests are from SIMPLE OBSERVATION, like the apparent movement of the Sun and Stars etc.

      Just because WE can deduce that the apparent difference of the positions of East and west from the spherical shape of the Earth and its trajectory around the Sun, does this mean that Muhammad or the 7th Century Arabs or the Quran also deduced or realised this?

      NO, They didn't have a clue!

      How do we know?

      Because EVERY verse in the Quran talking about the shape of the Earth DESCRIBES IT AS FLAT. (15:19, 20:53, 43:10, 50:7, 51:48, 71:19, 78:6, 79:30, 88:20 and 91:6 )

      Some Muslims today claim the Arabic word “dahaha”, used in verse 79:30, which means spread or stretched, is from the root duhiya which means ostrich egg, attempting to link dahaha with roundness. (The verse 79:30 literally translates: “and after that He spread out the earth”)

      Unfortunately Duhiya is not a root word and furthermore it doesn't even mean the egg of an ostrich! It means the place in sand where an ostrich lays its egg!

      After laying its egg in a hole in the sand the Ostrich spreads the sand out flat on top of it with its feet to hide it.

      Also there is another inconvenient fact.

      NOT ONCE in describing the shape of the Earth does the Quran say it is spherical or round, when it has a word for it. Surely it would be a simple matter, if the Quran wanted to say the Earth was spherical, to actually say so??

      And here is the clincher Quran 18:83-86:

      The Quran talks of a place where the Sun sets in the Earth. Not where it APPEARS to set, but a place where it ACTUALLY sets!

      “And he followed a road Till, WHEN HE REACHED THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, HE FOUND IT SETTING IN A MUDDY SPRING, and found a people thereabout."

      Why must you hide your head in the sand from the truth SR?
      • Jun 25 2011: "SR we have been through all this before!"
        agree. and I wonder you have seen my replies of not. I write short and I hope you at least do little research about my replies. I assume you have min. req. intelligence and it is not needed to I reply you by detail and only mention is enough for you. but seems I should write detail for you.

        "you agreed refers to the two apparent Easts and Wests during the Summer and Winter Solstices. "
        agree. the two max and min point for sunset and sunrise is possible when earth is round. how this phenomena happens when earth is flat? this proves Koran agree earth is round. please how it is possible if earth is flat? this is much higher than only earth is round.

        "The apparent Easts and Wests are from SIMPLE OBSERVATION, like the apparent movement of the Sun and Stars etc."
        SIMPLE OBSERVATION says there is one sunrise. how SIMPLE OBSERVATION says many sunrises? this is not rational reply. or explain.

        "NO, They didn't have a clue!"
        this is only a claim. talk by proof not claim.
        Muhammad had absolute knowledge of everything from God.
        and Koran is not from Muhammad. Koran is from God. the creator of earth.

        "Because EVERY verse in the Quran talking about the shape of the Earth DESCRIBES IT AS FLAT. (15:19, 20:53, 43:10, 50:7, 51:48, 71:19, 78:6, 79:30, 88:20 and 91:6 )"
        this is only a long list of claims with no proof. all verses about earth say it is round.
        please pick one and show your proof for that. I have not time to reply all of them here. pick one with proof.

        "the root duhiya which means ostrich egg"
        why you not ask an Arabic specialist. does not exist such thing in New Zealand?
        please do not prejudice about a word in a language you do not know. this is not professional. simply ask a specialist. or search root of that word in internet. it means both spreading out and has root meaning in ostrich egg. so it means making something spreader out in a large egg form. like pottery both flat and round. (flat by meaning of not high/low)
      • Jun 25 2011: "Unfortunately Duhiya is not a root word"
        sorry. you do not know Arabic. It has root and its root is د ح و
        The root:
        http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=dHw#(79:30:4)
        Do you accept it has root? (if no reply I consider as your acceptance)
        Also it has meaning of egg of an ostrich. Unfortunately there is few English reference. But many Arabic reference. I am honest But if you not accept it has meaning of egg of an ostrich in native Arabic language I can do search and find a valid English reference.

        "It means the place in sand where an ostrich lays its egg!"
        Reference?

        "when it has a word for it. Surely it would be a simple matter, if the Quran wanted to say the Earth was spherical, to actually say so??"
        I replied this also before. But as you do not see or forget I repeat:
        Koran is not only for one time. Koran is for all time to end of world. And should contain all knowledge and should be fresh for every time even for time of advances in future. So Koran should contain high volume of knowledge in only one book. Koran has tones of facts about earth not only earth is round. If you want to compact 1000 book into one book you have no way to use method of Koran.

        "The Quran talks of a place where the Sun sets in the Earth. Not where it APPEARS to set, but a place where it ACTUALLY sets! "
        I am sorry for you. Koran said APPEARS to set.
        Have you read that verse ever? Or only copied from a link?
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/18:86
        Do you see the word وَجَدَهَا before Sun sets?
        What means that word?
        It means "found it" sets that means APPEARS to set.
        Please verify that if you have seen this reply. And what is your reply. I hope if you are wrong honestly admit it.
        [I do not want your admit. Only do not repeat same thing again and again after my replies. But you forced me I treat you same as your behavior.]
        Also please read this about that doubt:
        http://goo.gl/zAunH

        Why must you hide your head in the sand from the truth Richard?
        you are not patient.
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          Jun 25 2011: Yes I am not very patient though some people say that with you I have had the patience of Job.

          "how SIMPLE OBSERVATION says many sunrises?" dont you see one every day? How many in a year?

          The answer to all your questions about the meaning of Daha used in that verse:

          http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur%27an

          Quran 9:30 "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah,..."

          The Jews do not say or believe that.

          Just one of the hundreds of errors in the Quran.

          Take your head out of the sand SR look at the truth - which is the Quran is just a book full of errors and wrong things.
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          Jun 25 2011: "when it has a word for it. Surely it would be a simple matter, if the Quran wanted to say the Earth was spherical, to actually say so??"

          SR - "I replied this also before. But as you do not see or forget I repeat:
          Koran is not only for one time. Koran is for all time to end of world. And should contain all knowledge and should be fresh for every time even for time of advances in future. So Koran should contain high volume of knowledge in only one book."

          How do any of these claims of yours in any way answer my question?

          SR - "Koran has tones of facts about earth not only earth is round. If you want to compact 1000 book into one book you have no way to use method of Koran."

          What? This makes no sense. And it again does not answer my question.

          If the Quran wanted to say the Earth was round it could simply have said so, instead it said things like 15:19 "And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable;.. "

          Leaving you to explain that a carpet can also be a sphere?? and ignoring the fact that mountains are neither firm nor immovable, but they shake and grow and wear down and disappear.

          PS A rectangle or a square can never be a sphere. From topology a spherical surface can never be flattened out to the rectangular shape of a carpet.
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          Jun 26 2011: Richard I seriously seriously admire your zeal!
        • Jun 26 2011: RIchard, how many times do I explain that you don't understand the Quran, you don't understand Arabic.....you don't understand that the Quran says that the earth is round......and how many times have you just ignored me and ran away, commenting somewhere else......?

          You are going to keep going on and on on how the Quran says the earth is flat.....and you won't listen to what we say........you know, if I knew the Quran says the earth is shaped flat I would leave the Quran......but it doesn't.....all your claims are just very weak claims coming from someone who only understands what WikiIslam says to him....

          as I said before, there is absolutely no point arguing with you, because you are not arguing on the Quran, you are arguing on something else.....I respect that you like to argue... but I am not the least bit moved by your weak arguments.......because to me it is so clear how ignorant you are of Arabic and everything else needed to understand the Quran.....to me, it is very clear how wrong your arguments are.....

          ''When I argue with a knowledgeable person I always win, but when I argue with an ignorant person, he always defeats me....''

          I hope you can understand....
      • Jun 25 2011: ""how SIMPLE OBSERVATION says many sunrises?" dont you see one every day? How many in a year?"
        1-in this scenario there is only one east that everyday sun sets there not many Easts. so why Koran says "Easts"?

        please clearly and honestly reply:
        2- did you accept دحاها has root and you was wrong?
        3- do you still believe دحاها does not mean like egg of an ostrich?
        4- did you accept when Quran talks of a place where the Sun sets in the Earth says where it APPEARS to set?

        "The answer to all your questions about the meaning of Daha used in that verse:

        http://www.wikiislam.net"
        oh! this is your reference of truth? how do you know this is reference of truth about Koran?
        the source of wiki software is free and I can download it and register a domain and start a wiki site in less then one hour then I am admin and I can change any part of wiki as I want.
        if you look it you see clearly it is anti Islam and biased. then you use it as a reference of true information about Koran. it is a collection of lies about Islam. I am interested to know based on which proof you considered it truth.
        please leave your links and your yourself knowledge and wisdom and show the proofs of yourself not throw me an invalid link and change subject of debate.

        "The Jews do not say or believe that."
        please let first finish the debate of earth. in past I thought if you leave a debate and change debate it means you have accepted you are wrong and I did not want to insist you accept your mistake but I was false. I see you again and again repeat your first claims. also about other subjects. you claimed bacteria is asexual. and you made other claims and leaved them and changed the subject like a sparrow from one bough to another.

        please reply above 4 question honestly.

        "Take your head out of the sand SR look at the truth - which is the Quran is just a book full of errors and wrong things."
        what you mean by truth? wikiislam.net?
        so prove only one error yourself. not throwing links without your proof.
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          Jun 25 2011: 1. "Why Quran says Easts?" -

          Possibly because the observable Easts keep changing with the season, a matter of simple observation. Every primitive people observed the same thing, and they had no explanation for it except for some supernatural deity like Allah being the cause.

          2. "did you accept دحاها has root and you was wrong?"

          No. I have shown you a source where it says it does not have a root. But even if it has a root, it is of no great consequence. The word in the verse means spread or stretch.

          3. "do you still believe دحاها does not mean like egg of an ostrich?"

          Of course the Arabic is clear in this. It means to spread or stretch. Every English translation of that verse by the most eminent scholars of Arabic translate it as spread or stretch.

          Even your favourite Shia site translates it thus: "And afterwards spread out the earth" http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/79:30.

          There is NO HINT of it ever meaning an ostrich egg! Why dont YOU admit it?

          4. "did you accept when Quran talks of a place where the Sun sets in the Earth says where it APPEARS to set?"

          Of course not. The Quran is again quite clear in this.

          The sun sets into a muddy pool at a certain place at night. "when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring". Why dont YOU admit it?

          Re: WikiIslam your argument against it carries no weight. You are running down the site, without answering the arguments it presents.

          Arguments stand alone of the presenter. Arguments do not become invalid because of the character of the presenter.
        • Jun 25 2011: ''Possibly because the observable Easts keep changing with the season, a matter of simple observation.''

          Again, if you had read all the verses......

          ''And We made the people who were deemed weak to inherit the easts of the lands and the wests of it which We had blessed; and the good word of your Lord was fulfilled in the children of Israel because they bore up (sufferings) patiently; and We utterly destroyed what Firon and his people had wrought and what they built.''

          7:137

          so they inherited the observable changing Easts now did they?! haha....they inherited that observable phenomena..?!! The Quran replies to you itself and it interprets itself...

          read this before you get close to translating or understanding the Quran..

          http://www.shiamultimedia.com/books/english/Ayatullah%20Jafar%20Subhani%20-%20Intoduction%20To%20The%20%20Science%20Of%20Tafseer%20Of%20The%20Quran.pdf

          Introduction - The Science of Tafsir......


          ''دحاها has no root''

          Ok.. now that is too bad to even get a reply....but anyway...if you had the least bit of knowledge on verbs in Arabic you would have known that they ALL have roots.....there is no point arguing this one.....you don't understand Arabic at all.....so don't speak of it.....


          It means to stretch.. so? Do you just want the Quran to be wrong even if it is not?! The verse means stretched which does not mean flat earth - if you knew anything on Arabic and didn't just listen to WikiIslam- stretched as in made it flat (opposite of mountainous areas)

          just like when we read in Geography books.....flat ground....flat land (أرض)....or flat city.....no one ever suspected them of saying the earth is flat.....

          this is made even clearer when we read the other verses which mention mountains right after they mention the flat earth......if you do not want to accept that- and you obviously won't because you don't want to accept anything- then don't

          ''And it is He Who spread out the earth, and placed therein firm mountains.....''

          13:3

          Contd...
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          Jun 25 2011: "It means to stretch..... so?"

          So it does not mean an Ostrich egg. Thank you for confirming this

          "Do you just want the Quran to be wrong even if it is not?!"

          No I have no desire either way. I just observe it to be wrong.
        • Jun 25 2011: Richard, I never claimed it meant Ostrich egg...no one of our famous scholars even claimed this........but the fact is the Quran does not say the Earth is flat......it says the earth is round..please try to understand this well....and read my comment well....please stop arguing about this......leave it to people who understand Arabic much much better than you....who are experts in Arabic and the Quran and know all the verses by heart....you are just making yourself look ignorant by arguing.....it is like for some ordinary guy to argue with a physicist on The theory of relativity...so many mistakes will be made.... anyway,as you say ''I have no desire either way''...

          ''1 Say: O unbelievers!
          2 I do not serve that which you serve,
          3 Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
          4 Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
          5 Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
          6 You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion. ''

          Chapter 109.

          ''I just observe it to be wrong.''

          With all due respect, who are you to observe the Quran wrong? did you even observe it in Arabic?? you are observing translations.......read the link I sent you on the introduction to Tafsir please.....


          I explained my view in my response to you.......you are very very ignorant Richard......you will keep denying everything....always......there is no point in trying to argue with you..which does not make you a winner, it makes you a loser.....Richard, Remember my name.....and I will remember yours......I want to laugh at you on the Day of judgment just as you might be laughing now.........just wait.....not many years until death will hunt you down......you are probably laughing at this too....I will not argue with you again because ignorant people should not be argued.....

          Thanks.
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          Jun 25 2011: "Richard, Remember my name.....and I will remember yours.." When you die your brain which holds memories ceases to function and disintergrates. So how will you remember me.

          "I want to laugh at you on the Day of judgment."

          Though that is an unlikely scenario, that is not a very pleasant thought or desire. Why do you hate people who reason against your beliefs?

          Keep an open mind and try and be more humane and compassionate. Dont believe in fairy tales and hateful myths.

          PS "I never claimed it meant Ostrich egg...no one of our famous scholars even claimed this..."

          But your famous scholar S.R. Ahmadi claimed this. "3- do you still believe دحاها does not mean like egg of an ostrich?"
        • Jun 25 2011: unlikely.....we will see.......fairy tales and myths.....fine.....lets see..

          I do not hate people....or people who 'reason' against my belief........if you even reason......

          and I will not be laughing at you out of hate.....I will be laughing just as you laugh at me.....and the Quran....disrespecting the Quran.....just like I know you don't hate me....because a human does not hate...I wish Guidance for you....

          I do not hate you now.....nor will I on the Day of judgment......I will just be so happy that I am (If God wills) in heaven and you were wrong ignorantly......you have time before you die.....because if death comes to you, you will have no place to go......and I will look at you on the day of judgment ( If God wills).....and laugh....laugh out of happiness....I will remember this......

          again, I do not hate you.....or any other human being.....I hate your ignorance..which is not you or part of you...I hate your beliefs.....but I respect your reasoning....and I listen to your reasoning very well....I am not scared of your ''reasoning'' but I just want you to read What Muslim Scholars actually say about Islam and do not go to sites like WikiIslam....you do not ask an enemy to describe his foe.......you ask the foe to describe himself..you live with the foe to see who he is.........every single thing said against Islam has been answered many many times before by many many Muslim Scholars......it is time to leave these stopping points and go straight to the destination and see what it has..which many westerners have already done....that is why Islam is the fastest growing religion...........I promise you, it is beautiful....it is peace.....it is life....it is eternal life.....It is submission to God.....which does not mean praying and worshipping and becoming a monk....it means being a human fully. living everything for God....helping humans to be close to God.....giving charity to be close to God..being a Human to be close to God....knowing who you are...
      • Jun 26 2011: Dear Richard,
        "How do any of these claims of yours in any way answer my question?"
        Read again and you will understand. Consider possible problem in yourself understanding. Its clear:
        Koran does not want to day only earth is flat. Koran wants to say many many knowledge in one book. And so should use different facts in only one word. Also it is method of Koran for protecting it from deviation. If it was a word like round it could be easily changed to flat by enemies of God who deviated Torah and Bible.

        "What? This makes no sense. And it again does not answer my question."
        It means Koran has many more information in compact form. Koran does not want to say only that earth is round. Wants to say many more in min. possible words. Like one stone two bird.

        "Leaving you to explain that a carpet can also be a sphere??"
        Yes. Sure. Assume a very large sphere with a carpet on it. There is no contradiction. But if you assume a football then no.

        "and ignoring the fact that mountains are neither firm nor immovable, "
        Not ignored. Read Koran. Koran said then we made mountains in earth.

        "but they shake and grow and wear down and disappear.'
        It is description of the end day of world not today. Please first Read Koran then spread false information.

        "PS A rectangle or a square can never be a sphere."
        Agree. Relation? Koran dis not said earth is like carpet. فرشنا is a verb. فرش is the noun means carpet. Koran said فرشنا not فرشنا . فرش is a verb meaning making a high/low land rough like a carpet. It is about roughness not about shape of carpet. The meaning of فرشنا is "making a place suitable for sitting"
        If Koran said: shape of earth is like a carpet then you was right. Please search meaning of فرشنا from any valid reference.

        "Possibly because the observable Easts keep changing with the season, "
        This is not a simple observe. It is scientific. Also this is correct only when earth is round and is false when earth is flat. This logic does not prove any error in Koran.
      • Jun 26 2011: "
        2. "did you accept دحاها has root and you was wrong?"

        No. "
        You are very head strong . Even a Arab child know it has root. Did your eyes see this link I sent for you before?
        http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=dHw#(79:30:4)
        Also:
        http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/Arabic/dHw%3AI.html
        Or simply search "root دحو" in Google.
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=root+%D8%AF%D8%AD%D9%88
        Open your eyes and read them and then honestly reply if it has root or not. (if you are honest)

        "
        3. "do you still believe دحاها does not mean like egg of an ostrich?"

        Of course the Arabic is clear in this. "
        Are you Arab. You are right about spreading out It has more than one meaning.

        "Even your favorite Shia site translates it thus: "And afterwards spread out "
        Its not shia. It has not the best Shia translations of Koran. Like Makarem translation. Yes its main meaning is spreading out. But also means in a form of a ostrich egg. It is translate not a detailed commentary. Translator wrote it for honest people. Not for who are looking for evasion to use it against Islam.

        "There is NO HINT of it ever meaning an ostrich egg! Why dont YOU admit it?"
        There is but I could not find in English. In Arabic is.
        Open your eyes:
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%D8%AF%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%87%D8%A7+ostrich+egg
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGQLGBYZMUU
        Are they Hint or not?
        But certain references are Arabic references. Why you not ask an Arab friend of yourself?

        "
        4. "did you accept when Quran talks of a place where the Sun sets in the Earth says where it APPEARS to set?"

        Of course not. "
        oh my god! What means the وجدها "found it" before "setting..."?????
        Read it again with open eyes:
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/18:86
        How you translate it?
        Please be honest.
        Please a honest human judge between me and Richard about this.

        "Re: WikiIslam your argument against it carries no weight. You are running down the site, without answering the arguments it presents. "
        They are too much. Pick one and be honest.
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    Jul 21 2011: TO ALL THOSE INQUIRING TO KNOW WHAT QUR'AN IS ALL ABOUT.
    CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW, FOR THE COMPLETE WORK OF AHMAD VON DENFFER::

    http://islamworld.net/docs/UUQ/index.html

    AN INTRODUCTION TO THE SCIENCES OF THE QUR'AN

    NOBODY REALLY CARES WHAT YOU WILL THINK AFTER READING IT,
    BUT YOU ARE INFORMED FROM NOW ON.

    ISLAM IS BEYOND YOUR UNDERSTANDING, AND IT IS MENTIONED SO
    IN THE QUR'AN, THE HOLY MESSAGE WILL BE CLEAR ONLY TO THOSE
    WHO ARE READY FOR IT AND WHO DESERVE IT, THE HIGHER YOUR
    INTELLECTUAL AND EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE BALANCE, THE MORE
    EASIER IT IS TO PERCEIVE THE MESSAGE OF QUR'AN, THE MORE PH.Ds
    ONE LIKELY HAVE OBTAINED AND MORE PRACTICES EXPERIENCED IN
    THEIR KNOWLEDGE IN LIFE, THE MORE LIKELY ONE TO UNDERSTAND THE
    CLEAR MESSAGE OF THE UNIVERSAL ISLAM - ONE ENERGY WHERE ALL COME FROM
    AND WHERE ALL WILL RETURN, REGARDLESS OF IF THEY BELIEVE IT OR NOT, WANT IT OR NOT.
    DO NOT SAY THAT YOU WERE NOT TOLD SO.
    • Comment deleted

      • Jul 23 2011: Dear Iqbal,
        "ISLAM IS BEYOND YOUR UNDERSTANDING"
        not mean you can not understand Islam.
        it means Islam is an unlimited ocean of knowledge that if all human add their think and try and science together still can not finish knowledge of Islam and every one can learn and near God using Islam as much as he can.
        it means knowledge of Islam is much higher than capacity of any human.
        how much your stomach can drink from an ocean of wine?
        also ocean is limited but Islam is unlimited.
    • thumb
      Jul 22 2011: Sophie - Heard all of that before... It's too bad that Islam is so exclusive. Thanks for the heads up. Btw, why did you shout it? Never mind....
      • Jul 22 2011: Jim - A friend of mine, a poet, has resolved life's energy into this very simplified thought.

        "Inclusive = good, exclusive = bad." That's it.
      • Jul 23 2011: "Heard all of that before"
        all?!
    • Jul 22 2011: Thanks Sofie, that is a great link. I will get some info from it for sure.
  • thumb
    Jul 21 2011: For a moment, late in this debate, I want to stand one more time on my soapbox...

    It would be wise for all of us to step back, just for a moment, and see what has happened within this conversationGo ahead... Step back just for a moment, and be self-critical. It helps more than it hurts. What good has come from it? How has the dialog helped shed light? Where are each of us now? Reflect and learn. If you don't it will be your loss...

    I have learned much. A sincere "thank you" to all.
    • Jul 21 2011: Thanks for the advice Jim. This is a good idea, it always improves the perspective.

      It seems like there is nothing more to say after this. Just reflect, look at the other guys point of view with compassion and understanding. Thus we learn and grow. I have learned some important things from this debate. And I have accepted some revised knowledge which I did not have before.

      I'm of the belief that I can receive a spiritual message, i.e. read the Bible, Tao, Buddha etc. and make my own analysis, I can do some research and talk to other people and revise my interpretations accordingly. I like to search for the core message in spiritual thought.
      When I read the Qur'an and do the same thing. SR tells me that the words on the page mean something different than what they say and that there is a world conspiracy trying to cover up the truth that only Islam can unlock.
      If I come to a conclusion other than the 'right one' then I am listening to propaganda. If I accept what they spoon feed me, like SR has done, then I am on the right path.
      I personally find this offensive. In my opinion, SR has bought into the Islamic propaganda hook, line and sinker. He is not able to consider that this doctrine is not an accurate depiction of God. He is not willing to consider that God may not be Allah. It appears as though he is not willing or able to reason on his own.
      Convince me that there is no God and I will accept it. Convince me that Yahwey is God and I will accept it. Convince me that Allah is God and I will accept it. So far the more I study Islam the more I am convinced that Allah is not God. Thank God! This is very liberating. Islam seems to imprison its faithful in endless rituals and convoluted reasoning which doesn't stand up to independent scrutiny. The endless bickering and threats of punishment in hell also don't sit well with me. The core message of Islam is arrogant and short on spiritual awareness from my point of view, with no proof.
      • Jul 23 2011: I ask you more research. and not prejudice before enough research.
        you use words show you are not still sure.
        research and research.
  • Jul 20 2011: Many religious texts have overlying themes in philosophy, "science", and the like that are "proved" according to many religious individuals attempting to validate their faith and their own self trust in the book itself. But anyone familiar with scientific thinking knows that that's not how you "prove" things.

    You can't just prove a religious text is right because some of its predictions are somehow reflected in discoveries in modern science and such.

    The only evidence you do have at your disposal (as do other religious activists) is going to lie in pseduscience and pseudophilosophy which can't be proven. Yeah, if you have good intellectual skills you may be able to put up a good argument with certain evidence by questioning the validity and such but you may NEVER SCIENTIFICALLY prove any book is "right". Science has done a good job in its attempt to filter knowledge and feed it to humanity the right way instead of just feeding humanity something that "looks right".

    You'll be caught in an infinite regression of argumentation if you attempt to prove the Koran or any religious text for that matter with just argumentation of pseudoscientific and psuedophilosophical claims.
    • Jul 20 2011: "Science has done a good job in its attempt to filter knowledge and feed it to humanity the right way instead of just feeding humanity something that "looks right"
      yes. this shows the value of Koran. Koran will never be filtered with sciense.
      please instead of accusing me prove one error in Koran.
      any book from human has errors especially 1400 years after writing.
  • Comment deleted

    • Jul 15 2011: Hello,
      I hope health for Richard,
      please do not misquote Koran.
      http://tanzil.net/#6:101 says: God has no child and never had any spouse. does not say what you say.
      so as the default of your logic is false no need further reply.

      about http://tanzil.net/#5:46 again misquote. Koran said only Bible (the book from God to Jesus (PBUH). an not said all books of new testimonials.

      about earth and sun there is no doubt scenario of Richard was wrong and we had lots of talk please read them. no need to repeat.

      "in their rounded celestial"
      please show the ROUNDED in Arabic text of Kora. Koran said in their path. not said the shape of path.

      "Although it does not explicitly say so, it obviously means its resting place at night. "
      !!!
      not said but is obvious?!!! how is obvious? are you God who said Koran? the resting point can be tomorrow or one billions years later. anyway you have no evidence that this resting point is "at night."

      "actual setting place of the Sun in a muddy"
      Koran says the story of Zul-Gharnain (perhaps Alexander) that he FOUND SUN SETTING. found it means APPARENTLY. NOT ACTUAL. it is addressing of a place (perhaps Azerbaijan)

      "NOT ONCE in the Quran, does it talk about the Earth moving around the Sun."
      I am not sure about it perhaps said. needs reserach. but so what? Koran is not only astronomy book. also Koran said sun is moving.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 15 2011: the type of CANNOT you say is a LOGICAL CANNOT. not about ability and power.
          it means when God has no spouse so Logically impossible to God have a son. it is irrelevant to power.

          the 5:46 uses word انجيل which first is not plural. it means only one book (Bible). about translate usually Muslims do not know the difference between Bible and new testimonials and Gospel and usually consider them same. Muslims mostly know only Bible. and think like Koran there is only one book of Bible in Christianity and mostly do not know about others.
          Gospel or new testimonials or Bible all means for Muslims one thing (usually. but some know it).
          Muslims only recognize one book of Bible of time of Jesus (PBUH) as the book of Jesus (PBUH)

          "along with the previous 3 points "
          please do not mix irrelevant points of Koran to justify your claim. the story of zul-gharnain is different. it is story about what he apparently see. it is not what God says about earth.

          how it means earth is flat? please clarify.
          did you read our past comments?

          "sets in the Earth at night."
          please show me "at night" in Arabic Koran. and it is what zul-gharnan found it (apparently).

          "This is also consistent with the prevalent belief of the times"
          if you know history Koran has thousands of contradict with beliefs of that time.
          Koran is from God. not from scientists of that time.
          please first prove your claims then conclude.

          "“swim along” in their rounded celestial "
          i asked you show the "rounded" in arabic text of Koran.
          when I said the moon is OK?

          when I said Sun revolving around the centre of our galaxy ?
          please show the "rounded" in arabic text of Koran.

          "PS The sun doesnt set in Azerbaij "
          when I said it?
          you have not read past comments.
          but i repeat again:
          before continuing about earth setting in mud please read here if you are rational:
          quran.al-islam.org
          please read the commentary of that verse.
          it is what zul-gharnain apparently see.
          "where sun apparently set in mud" is a special place in earth
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 15 2011: "Why should it be talking about different things about the Sun and the Moon when it mentions them in the same sentence?"
          who said this?
          http://tanzil.net/#21:33
          Koran says all of them (sun and earth) are moving in a path (like ship moving in sea like swimming)
          but not said "rounded" orbit as Richard claimed.
          please show me 'rounded"

          "Is there in your mind just the teeniest weeniest bit of doubt that my explanation, rather than yours, is the right one? "
          depends on your logic and proof. please do not accuse me for dogma. and show your rigid proof instead of claims.

          “What would you accept as proof that the Koran is not perfectly true?”
          proof is clear and no need to play with words.

          "My explanation is much more reasonable than yours,"
          Is there in your mind just the teeniest weeniest bit of doubt that my explanation, rather than yours, is the right one?

          What is the probability in % age that you have, in your mind, to the POSSIBILITY that my explanation is the right one rather than yours?

          What would you accept as proof that your claims about Koran are wrong?

          only rigid proof shows which of us are correct.
          accusing other side to dogma does not prove anything.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 16 2011: "but it is claimed that for Allah all things are possible."
          yes all "things" are possible for God. but what is impossible is not a "thing".
          impossible does not exist logically. and is not a thing.
          also this is a reply to who believed God is a man.
          birth and child is for spices and spices are material. God is not material at all so how can be similar to material?
          God is not human nor animal not material not have time nor have place. birth has no meaning about God. birth and children has meaning for material.

          "why then is it logically possible, according to the Quran, for Mary to have a son without a spouse?"
          although she had no husband God sent an angle to pregnant her by miracle. anyway she did not got pregnant alone.

          "The Quran has the same ignorance as Muhammad and Muslims."
          Koran says the انجيل (Bible) which means the book God sent to Jesus (PBUH). if bible is not the name of book God sent to Jesus (PBUH) what is correct name? Koran talks about it. not all testimonials.
          not important what is translated. Koran means the book God sent to Jesus (PBUH) himself.
          please see:
          http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AC%D9%8A%D9%84
          specially:
          http://tanzil.net/#57:27
          this says "we gave Jesus (PBUH) the انجيل" you translate انجيل what you like . bible or gospel or other. Koran means what was given to Jesus (PBUH) from God. not apostles.

          inside testimonials the Torah and Bible was from God and other written by people later. not all is from people. each prophet (Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (PBUT)) had one book from God by revelation. and other is from people.
          although today the original books of Jesus and Moses (PBUH) are not available 100% original and are partially deviated. but today Koran is 100% what exited from mouth of Muhammad (PBUH)

          "He did not know it, "
          each prophet know the past books word by word by Knowledge from God. many christian leaders came to prophet and he told them bible better than themselves.

          I think gospel is not correct translate.
        • Jul 16 2011: "They are not irrelevant. They are from the Quran all talking about the Suns motion. "
          friend. the did you read the story of zul-gharnain?
          it is what he see apparantly when he reached to a special land. it is not saying of God. it is a story and what zalgharnin see. also God said many things quoted from evil people. it not mean it is saying from God. so it is mixing the irrelevant verses.

          for example I say:
          I went to a land where the sun never set. what mean this? this mean this is about the north pole. OK? it is also about a place. not what God says about sun.

          "The Sun and the Moon “swim along” in their rounded celestial spheres"
          oh my God! how many times I should repeat?
          please show me "rounded" in Arabic Koran. it not said rounded. it means only path.
          please do not repeat same thing before replying me.

          "the sun rests (at night because that’s when the Sun sets) in a muddy spring (according to you in Azerbaijan).
          "
          where is "at night"?
          muddy is apparently and is what a man see in a special land.

          there are other verses. but you not seem rational. first read my replies. and do not repeat same thing before disproving my replies.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 16 2011: "Why should we explain what the people of the 7th century meant by that? "
          because it means earth is round.

          "This says nothing about the shape of the Earth at all. "
          please assume two condition:
          1- earth is flat
          2- earth is round
          and check this verse matches which?
          how it is possible in flat earth?

          "This is obviously from the pagan rituals that preceded Islam when idolaters worshipped the Kaaba."
          they had 360 God and killed cow for God and stars were daughters of God. there is no similarity between Islam and Arab pagans.

          "To pray with your backside facing the Kaaba is blasphemous. "
          side is not important. obeying God is important.

          "It is perfectly logical to pray facing Mecca on a flat Earth."
          also on flat earth.

          "If you were exactly on the opposite side of the Globe, which way would you face? "
          this is defined in Islam. you can find reply of such questions in:
          www.makarem.ir

          "It is obvious the Quran does not have a clue about the roundness of the Earth."
          I wonder how is obvious with no proof. pray to mecca does not mean earth is flat.
          it is also correct in round earth.

          "Not once in the Quran, does it talk about the Earth moving at all. "
          please first read past comments carefully.

          "In answer you produced 4 verses, which YOU claimed, said the Earth was moving. In fact NONE of them do."
          this is your claim. proof?

          "No one reading those verses could come to the conclusion they are saying the Earth is moving."
          cradle is a moving object.
          Koran also uses فراش in other verse which is fixed flat bed. why used مهد cradle here? and not used فراش؟ the difference of فراش and مهد is in moving of مهد
          http://www.up2.ir/image-B9D0_4A6D04C8.jpg

          http://anobanini.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5009&stc=1&d=1286800579

          http://www.iranak.info/Download/DIRDataBase8/632928527080781250_623398_koodak-va-gahvareh.jpg
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 16 2011: "It talks of a bed or cradle. This is obviously metaphorical"
          bed has other word I explained it. bed= فراش
          مهد = cradle. not bed. even if bed it means bed of baby.

          "This is obviously metaphorical"
          yes. actually earth is not cradle. but each metaphor has a message. metaphore is not 100% meaningless.

          "the Earth as a flat firm place where roads have been laid out by Allah, for men to move on."
          why flat? when said this verse flat?

          "2. Not all cradles even in modern times move."
          usually move. specially in 1400 years ago and in Arab community. the meaning in arab language is important. because Koran is arabic.
          http://www.up2.ir/image-B9D0_4A6D04C8.jpg

          http://anobanini.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5009&stc=1&d=1286800579

          http://www.iranak.info/Download/DIRDataBase8/632928527080781250_623398_koodak-va-gahvareh.jpg

          why Koran not said فراش in this verse but said فراش in other verses? and why said مهد about earth?
          when Koran uses فراش and مهد in different verses what it means?

          no it is certain.

          "3. The meaning one gets from that verse is that "
          this is mean you get. and needs proof based on original arabic language.

          also I showed 4 verse for moving earth. not only this one.

          possibility is not important. proof and evidence is important. you want to determine truth by voting and %?
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 18 2011: "I SHOWED YOU ROUNDED!!!! did you not read the link? I pasted it too. BUT EVEN IF IT IS NOT ROUNDED SO WHAT!!! IT IS IMMATERIAL!! FORGET ROUNDED!"
          I can not see the "rounded". where is it?
          the Arabic world is فلک which means path or orbit (not necessarily rounded, any shape) like the path of ship in sea. (predefined)
          also it is not IMMATERIAL because you made a scenario about Koran based on such false interprets of Koran.

          "That is what you can see with the naked eye."
          where is rounded?
          yes Koran says sun is moving. also science says this (see J Ali link). but Koran not said sun is moving around earth.

          "he found it "
          what means this:
          1- it is what he (zul-gharnain (perhaps Alexsander) see not what Koran say. this is a quote (can be false).
          2- found it means apparently. like: I traveled where sun never set (pole)
          please be honest and do not try to prove something with misinterpret. use some rigid proof and honestly leave such kind of proof. what are you looking for? disproving Koran in any method? (even irrational method)

          "The place of the setting of the Sun. Allah is saying this."
          no if you read the story complete the place is a country. did you read the commentary from quran.al-islam.org?

          "The place of the setting of the Sun. Allah is saying this."
          please do not interpret as you like.
          Allah said he reached a place that there he FOUND IT setting in mud. it means in that place he see the sun setting in mud. in that country the nature was like this. like north pole that sun never set.
          what means found it setting?

          "He is not talking about the Torah because he says that's what preceded it - he is talking about the Gospel which was not given to Jesus,"
          in many verses talks about the book given to Jesus (PBUH)(انجيل. (gospel is a translate (possibly wrong))
          please reply what is the name book Jesus (PBUH) himself received from God?
          Koran clearly says "book received from God".
          please check other translates.

          mistake should have proof.
          also check all translates.
        • Jul 18 2011: http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedraza/5:46
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/5:46
          not all translated Gospel.
          also what is difference of bible and Gospel?
          Jesus (PBUH) himself had a book and Christians at time of life of him had that book and used it but when he disappeared the church collected all books of Jesus (PBUH) from people and until year 150 people had not Book of Jesus (PBUH).
          then at year 150 church made 4 versions of Bible and distributed it to people.
          Koran means the Book at time of Jesus (PBUH) himself. not books written after him.
          can you clear me what is different of Bible and Gospel?
          and do you agree Jesus (PBUH) himself had a book from God? what happened for that book?
  • thumb
    Jul 14 2011: Hi S.R. Ahmadi,

    You have opened a dialogue to "prove the Koran" and you have said you are willing to accept "proof" that the Koran is NOT true.

    Then, you demonstrate a deliberate and determined unwillingness to consider any "proof" that is presented to you.

    So, let me ask you a simple question (and please provide a simple, concrete, unqualified answer):

    What would you accept as proof that the Koran is not perfectly true?

    If your answer is, "Nothing - the Koran cannot be proven to be untrue - it is perfect," or if your answer is, "I am willing to accept 'anything' that proves it is untrue [while you secretly hold to the belief that nothing can prove it is not true] then I suggest you are being deceptive in your invitation to discuss this topic openly and objectively.

    The kind of answer I am looking for from you is: "If you can find one factual error in the Koran, I will accept that it is not perfectly true," or, "If you can find one discrepancy between science and the Koran, I will accept that it is not inerrant," or, "If you can find a discrepancy between how the Koran represents another religion and how that religion represents itself, I will accept that the Koran is not inerrant."

    In other words, in concrete, unambiguous, unequivocal terms, tell us what you would accept as proof.

    Please do not "deflect" by responding to something other than this very simple question:

    My Dear S.R. Ahmadi,

    What will you accept as proof that the Koran contains mistakes, errors and is not "perfect?"
    • Jul 14 2011: Hi Thomas,
      "What would you accept as proof that the Koran is not perfectly true?"
      please PROVE any kind (scientific historical rational or other) of error in Koran.
      or "If you can find one factual error in the Koran, I will accept that it is not perfectly true," or, "If you can find one discrepancy between science and the Koran, I will accept that it is not inerrant,"

      please note me and you both are human and all humans have same logic. unless things like math not existed.
      so please do not challenge me what is proof.
      we all know what is proof.
      I only mean do not believe anything TV feed you or links feed you are true.
      I say:
      leave your links and yourself read Koran and do a research then show your own proof.
      copy&paste from an invalid link with no think is not proof.
      the world is spreading propaganda against Islam and Koran and western people believe them.
      I say:
      for a moment assume all you heard about Islam is wrong and start your own research based on valid references. ( I do not say believe anything my links say. accept only your own think and wisdom but use valid sources and do not believe anything TV show you like Bin Laban Aisha etc...)
      www.al-islam.org
      www.shiamultimedia.com/englishbooks.html
      www.makarem.ir

      I think you know the news about "the news of the world" magazine.
      http://www.presstv.com/usdetail/188911.html
      this is only one example.
      people are grown up with such media. they are trainer of children.
      • thumb
        Jul 14 2011: Hi S.R. Ahmadi,

        The reason I ask you what you will accept as proof is that you seem completely unwilling to accept any "proof" that is offered to you. I have seen many very simple examples that are very clear. And you reject them. I am not going to repeat them because there is no reason to believe you will accept them simply because I am writing them.

        I know of several errors in the Koran and, again, I have no intention of telling you what they are because I already know how you will respond: You will say that my "sources" are wrong - or my interpretation is wrong - or that the error does not appear in Arabic - etc - etc - etc.

        You discount all "proof" by saying things like it it is not proof I only think it is proof, or some such thing.

        I suspect that no matter what "proof" is presented to you, you will simply say it comes from "an invalid link" and then you will direct me to a "valid link."

        The thing is, S.R. Ahmadi, that, for you, any link that is critical of the Koran is an "an invalid link" and the ONLY links you accept as "valid" support your belief.

        This is intellectual naivety.

        This is what I think: You are simply unwilling to accept there are any errors in the Koran so there is no point in trying to prove to you there are any. Again, you will simply say the link (or the person) who has provided the proof does not really know what they are talking about.

        I also think you are using this discussion as a means to get people to read the Koran and the 'valid links' that you are so helpful in providing because you believe that if a "true seeker" reads them he or she will embrace Islam.

        In other words, you have no intention of changing your mind - no matter what proof is provided. And you think you might find a seeker or two by "pretending" to engage in an open and objective discussion.

        This, as I am sure you can see, is a form of deception. Perhaps it is self-deception. But it is deception nonetheless.

        Now, I would not try to prove anything .. to you.
        • Jul 14 2011: Dear Thomas Jones,
          all you said does not prove Koran has error.
          why you think any I reject anything about Koran?
          also what is problem reading my links?
          do you fear reading them?
          I think you are fearing from my links.
          human is enemy of what do not know.
          yes I say different replies like this link is not valid or this translate is not correct. but I show proof for my reply. i do not only say your interpret of Koran is false. if my reply has not enough proof you can challenge my reply.
          anyway you are free to prove or not prove any error in Koran.
          but what I see from you is only insisting on your beliefs and prejudice about Koran.
          I prefer method of Elam,
          he do research and show some questions without prejudice and we continue talking.
          you do not show any proof and only repeat your beliefs about Koran.
          this method will not lead you in truth.
          I only can say you have prejudice about me.
          if no one showed me a rigid proof it does not mean I not will to accept any proof.
          I accepted some proofs from ted users especially about Evolution.
          but Koran is from God and God has absolute knowledge and his book has no error.
          this is not my fault no one can disprove Koran. this is power and knowledge of God.
  • Jul 8 2011: This discussion is very tiresome, and yet, here I am weighing in.

    I am reminded of a chat I had with a Sudanese friend in Khartoum a few years back. We were talking about his Ramadan fast during which he could not eat until after sundown. I made what I thought was a good-natured observation and asked what a Muslim would do at the one of the Earth's poles should Ramadan fall during a time when the sun would not rise or set. My friend was not the most educated man and was not aware of this phenomenon. He got very angry and concluded that either I was wrong, was lying, or that the world was not round after all, anything to preserve the literal truth of his faith. It was an awkward moment.

    I would also like to respond to a few postings saying that we English speakers have no business responding to Mr. Ahmadi because we cannot read the Koran in Arabic. Since Mr. Ahmadi chose to post in English to a predominantly English-speaking audience, he must have expected to be able to make a compelling case and defend it in English. Claiming that we have no standing to argue is an inane point.

    It is clear, however, that a language barrier (among other things) is interfering with the progress of the discussion. Mr. Ahmadi and Mr. Dawson seem to be speaking past each other without being able to agree on what the cited texts say. It would be helpful if Mr. Ahmadi would provide English translations that he accepts as accurate.

    Thanks for listening.
    • Jul 8 2011: '' I made what I thought was a good-natured observation and asked what a Muslim would do at the one of the Earth's poles should Ramadan fall during a time when the sun would not rise or set. My friend was not the most educated man and was not aware of this phenomenon. He got very angry and concluded that either I was wrong, was lying, or that the world was not round after all, anything to preserve the literal truth of his faith. It was an awkward moment.''

      Hi Ward,

      If indeed this story is true....then I also agree with you that it is truly awkward... your observation is very good-natured and it has been studied by the scholars of Islam...they are not scared of it...maybe it was just your friend's ignorance...Islam does not support ignorance at all.....

      The answer to your question is answered by Islamic jurisprudence which says that if he is in a place where the sun does not rise or set for a very very long time, e.g. the north pole... then when Ramadan begins, fasting becomes obligatory on him, but since he is in a place where he cannot fast...he must leave to another place where he can...either in Ramadan or after it is finished... if he cannot leave to another place then he doesn't have to leave...because the Quran says

      ''......and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion.....''

      22:78

      If leaving his place just to fast is a great difficulty then he simply doesn't have to leave or fast... Islam doesn't want a person to do the impossible...it wants to keep everything easy for its followers...

      Hope that answers your question...
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 9 2011: Dear Iqbal,
          first i do not know why all your comments are related to sex. do you have any sex problem?
          are you married?

          but about your doubt:
          in Islam rules the need for sex is not considered as حرج (difficulties) people can be patient on sex while having no serous problem.
          such sever need that this father (perhaps Indian) has made for himself is like need for drug or cigar that can not be considered a rational need.
          but in emergency conditions some rules of Islam changes. for example in Islam easing the meat of dead animals (without slaughter, for example naturally dead) is banned. but in emergency conditions it is allowed.
          or in war conditions there is not needed to Muslims do pray in usual form. they even can do pray at sleeping position.

          difficulties in that verse means problems that are really very hard or dangerous or impossible to do for a person and this not include need for sex.
          also marriage is very recommended in Islam and God ordered (not recommended) to parents and believers to make marriage for their youngs and God promised if they are poor I make then needless:
          http://tanzil.net/#24:32
          helping youngs to marriage is one of the best rewarded works by God and Muslims usually help and give money and needed accessories to people who need marriage but can not.
          also marriage in soon ages is recommended in Islam.
          prophet said:
          "daughter is like fruit on tree. if it be picked later than its time will be expired."
    • Jul 8 2011: Dear Ward,
      in Islam each Muslim should be professional in Islamic knowledge or select a professional (marja) to ask him.
      so lets ask a professional:
      http://english.makarem.ir/estefta/?mit=451

      the explain in Persian language is more detail:
      http://persian.makarem.ir/compilation/book.php?bcc=28783&itg=7&bi=242&s=ct

      different Marja may have different reply (fatwa) but mostly they say:
      they people have day and night (while actually is day) according high and low level of sun. anyway they need sleep. and pray should be done according to that time of day ad night. (time is important not darkness)

      some other say you can select a point on earth as reference and pray and fast according it.

      some say pray and fast is not necessary for you.
  • Comment deleted

    • Jun 26 2011: "I'm coping the source here."
      do not copy before research. many links have false information.

      the books Muslim and Bukhari are not 100% correct and have errors.
      the marriage age of Aisha is studied and it was 15-17 years at marriage.
      did you read all Hadith books? did you read all the books of Bukhari and Muslim? or you only insist in some errors in them without any notice to many other valid Hadith books?
      this is clearly collected by a biased man.
      the real age of Aisha was 15-17 years at marriage.

      what you copied are collection of some errors in among ocean of information and books saying other things.
      what is your goal?
      you want to seek truth?
      or you want to find some errors in Islam and stick to them until end of your life.
      if you are honest please study Islam from valid sources and then you know truth. not to like a house fly go and sit on a smelly thing and leave flowers and then say I do not see any flower here.
      I ask you watch this and do not repeat same thing again and again after my replies again and again.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt7vS7kxc50
      please be honest and if you REALLY are not seeking truth please not talk me.
  • Comment deleted

    • thumb
      Jun 24 2011: lol Matthieu, our friend SR is at it again having been disproved so many times.

      Elam Waltzing has taken the claim that the Quran hasnt been changed apart above.

      The Verse of self praise 2:23 claims "And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful."

      The challenge in this verse is followed, in the very next verse, by the affirmation that such a task is impossible, and threatens with "the Fire whose fuel is men and stones" those who disbelieve this verse. lol

      "But if ye cannot - AND OF A SURETY YE CANNOT - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith."

      The reasoning of Islam is circular indeed.

      If you're a Muslim, you believe that the Quran is the word of God, and since it is the word of God it is without error. If it is without error then the verse that you cannot "produce a surah the like thereof" is also true.

      If it is without error then all the errors and contradictions in the Quran are not errors or contradictions, as a matter of faith.

      They are just errors of translations, understanding etc. The Quran does not say the Earth is flat and the Sun is a small object that moves around the Earth and sets in a muddy spring at night. etc etc...

      We have been through this before. This belief above is hard wired into their thinking like the 3 laws of Robot, for Robots.
    • Jun 24 2011: "growth of the foetus description is completely wrong"
      proof? I replied you about that. did you read my reply? مضغه is a specific word in Arabic and has no special English equivalent and usually is translated as "some thing like a small flesh" or "some thing like some chewed flesh".
      I ask you study about meaning of مضغه

      http://quran.al-islam.org/query.php?t_arabic=on&t_shakir=on&t_yusufali=on&t_pickthal=on&t_ali=on&sura=23&SavedSura=1&fromaya=14&toaya=&searchtext=
      http://quran.al-islam.org/query.php?t_arabic=on&t_shakir=on&t_yusufali=on&t_pickthal=on&t_ali=on&sura=22&SavedSura=1&fromaya=5&toaya=&searchtext=

      "Richard Dawson has found some contradictions."
      he does not accept evidence that Koran says earth has more than one east and west and this means earth is not flat and only repeats a poor translate. only repeats same things even if I show tons of evidence Koran says earth is round.

      "Elam Waltzing has taken the "
      why you not wait some to I reply and conclude before my reply? it seems you are not seeking truth about Koran. I do not know what are you looking for.

      what you mean by using lol? this is not sign of a rational and respectful argument.

      "The reasoning of Islam is circular indeed. "
      the reason is that Islam has many deaf and blind enemies that not see truth (friends of Satan) and can you show any one in history made a book like Koran and won this challenge?

      "If you're a Muslim, you believe that the Quran is the word of God"
      a Muslim accept Koran by wisdom and rational argument and evidences.

      "If it is without error then all the errors and contradictions in the Quran are not errors or contradictions, as a matter of faith."
      also "Koran says earth is flat" is a faith.

      "They are just errors of translations,"
      reply about those 3 verse.
      • thumb
        Jun 24 2011: ha you're dreaming if you think I'm going that road again! Might as well shout at a brick wall. Good luck with your crusade.
        • Jun 25 2011: TED admin closed that topic and this topic is mainly for Christoph derived from this topic:

          "Could you pick out 1 proof out of the Koran (preferably the one that you think is the best) for its validity? We can then discuss about it (maybe in another topic?) and see if it holds and under what assumptions."
          http://www.ted.com/conversations/1602/why_don_t_people_believe_in_go.html?c=270185

          "Good luck with your crusade."
          this is a peaceful talk for truth. but Richard makes me angry.
        • Jun 25 2011: "You are committed to the idea that it is perfect truth"
          simply prove I am wrong.

          "I don't see any evidence whatsoever that you are open to changing your commitment to this idea."
          how I change when I do not see any evidence against Koran? so you think I am not open to change. first show me evidence then I change. not first I change then you [perhaps] show evidence.

          "and I suspect you may have abandoned the threads about science."
          it is because of TED admin closing topics before their original time set by author of topic.

          yes Koran has priority for me. but I spend time for other.
          about your comment about hypothesis and theory the topic was closed after your comment. in Persian is the same but I read mostly English about science.

          anyway if you can prove any error in Koran you are welcome. (prove. not coping claims)
        • Jun 26 2011: "Please tell me now how you know what is true about reality. "
          first by wisdom I compared different ideologies. but wisdom only can compare and has errors and is not perfect. when by wisdom and science we selected best way which fits perfect with wisdom and science then we ensure it. but if we found any conflict in it with wisdom or science we doubt it and search for better search. but always we should research other options to make sure we have selected best choice about truth. but I ensure you if you select TRUE Islam you can reach 100% certainty based on your try and research. but not all Muslims do enough research and not all Muslims are true Muslim. today Islam has many cults and not all are true. I have not found even one conflict of any kind in Shia Islam and Ali (PBUH). after prophet true Islam was restricted and simple people can not find it without research.

          "I use the scientific method. "
          its limited only to nature and material. its not about truth. each work needs suitable tool. for truth you should wisdom first. not only science. but science is good for comparing religions and knowing nature. truth can not be found by ONLY science.

          "No one can enumerate a list of all concrete facts about a domain. "
          who has absolute knowledge can.

          "My knowledge is only useful if I can share it with others and they can verify it."
          knowledge is not only empirical and materialist science. also wisdom leads knowledge.
          if you mix wisdom and science you see nature has a creator and designer.
          http://www.al-islam.org/mufaddal/
          who has no science will not understand it. science alone has limits and lacks.
          wisdom is not True knowledge. any healthy adult human has wisdom. but in different levels. wine is corrosive to wisdom. wisdom is logic and controls human from doing anything likes to do. what says you: "do not do that evil deed" is your wisdom. wisdom+science leads to knowledge. science without wisdom is only a database of information. wisdom is built in human.
        • Jun 26 2011: "My UTR tells me that Adam and Eve are myths."
          this is normal. but your UTR is not perfect and contains false information and needs more and more research.
          *** knowledge is more than you cal learn it all. so select from knowledge its most beneficial***

          "I think my UTR is a better guide to reality than your book."
          after years of research I found Koran is 100% truth. not one morning I decided Koran is truth.
        • Jun 26 2011: "the more I believe the correct word is "delusion""
          its only your believe.

          "Please be aware that all such claimed knowledge of supernatural phenomena is purely subjective and is entirely dependent on cultural factors. "
          I disagree about Islam. Islam is different. do you know Muhammad had 70 war mostly with Arabs because he had conflict with their cultural factors. how you explain this conflict?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_Muhammad
          I agree you unless about Islam.
          also Islam is mixed in many regions with culture. but still it not mean Islam is totally man made. you do not know Islam and compare it with old and deviated religions.

          'If you grew up in a predominantly Christian country you would likely be Christian. "
          perhaps. I happy it not happened.

          not all humans follow their fathers beliefs blind.
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/21:54

          "Michael Shermer's"
          he is correct about old and deviated religions and man made religions. but Islam is not like them.

          "For you are absolutely convinced you are right, and the only reason you have engaged in conversation with me (or anyone here on TED) is the hope of converting me (us) to your belief. In my case, I assure you that isn't going to happen."
          when people can not talk rationally say such things.
          it is not my Goal. only your think.
          I want to spread truth about God and its not important for me who accept and who not accept.
          also conversion in is happening specially i Europe heavily if you want or not want.
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/9:33
          it is will of God and no one can stop it.
          please wait and watch. Europe is becoming Muslim.
          no one can stop truth.
        • thumb
          Jun 30 2011: "ha you're dreaming if you think I'm going that road again! Might as well shout at a brick wall. Good luck with your crusade." I actually laughed out loud a lot to this one!
      • Jun 29 2011: SR - If you think the growth of the fetus description in the Qur'an is right, tell me how long does the Qur'an say it takes from conception to birth?
  • thumb
    Jun 23 2011: Please describe the usefulness proselytizing.
    I'm curious to hear your answer.
    • Jun 24 2011: what you mean?
      please ask clear to I describe.
      • thumb
        Jun 24 2011: What is the usefulness of talking about the Koran to people with an intent to sway their beliefs?
        Is it a moral obligation?
        • Jun 24 2011: "What is the usefulness of talking about the Koran to people with an intent to sway their beliefs? "
          nothing but wasting time.
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/13:31

          but also there are people seeking truth. they are my cause for writing.


          "Is it a moral obligation? "
          yes. a good human should spread truth.
  • Comment deleted

    • Jul 23 2011: Dear Iqbal,
      "prophet (a sex addict)"
      Muhammad (PBUH) was not a sex addict. proof: 1- he married late and before marriage was poor and had not woman. 2- his first wife was not young. 3- he had only one wife until his first wife died. after death of his first wife (when himself was no longer young) he had only one young wife because of political reasons not for sex. also she was not child. she was adult and her age is not clear in history but most probably she has been 15-17 at marriage. yes some references say 6 years. but all references should be considered not only one. some references say more than 20.

      'Only the religion of Koran has such a concept of Allah who collide with an uneducated, polygamist, child lover prophet. no respect for other gods of other religions."
      uneducated was to God prove knowledge of prophet had not any human source.
      "polygamist"
      what is problem of polygamist? it is allowed in Islam and Koran. a Muslim can have up to 4 wife but has very hard terms and a Muslim prefer 1 because of hard terms. In Iran polygamist is very rare.
      about prophet it was especial orders of God and not for all Muslims. and his wives were widows and each case has especial story. i asked you many times study about his marriages. I can not explain all here.
      because you do not like polygamy so it should be banned by God? you decide for God?

      "child lover prophet."
      this is false. no proof in valid history.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt7vS7kxc50

      "no respect for other gods of other religions."
      no Koran respect God of Judaism and Christianity and God of prophets like Abraham and so on. but not consider cow and deity and stars and so on as God.

      "no true religion in the world asks its followers to "lie" under certain circumstances. "
      lie in Islam is great sin and not ask. but allowed only in 3 especial condition. not always.

      "no true religion in the world ask its founder to marry a child."
      agree. and not asked Islam. show evidence from Koran.
    • Jul 23 2011: "no true religion in the world ask its founder to marry many widows."
      Islam not asked. but allowed in special conditions with hard terms.
      do you know other true religions? Buddhism is not true religion. but Christianity and Judaism are true religions from God. are you sure they ban it? not church. but what Christ said.

      "no true religion in the world ask its founder to marry wife of another man."
      yes. also Islam. Islam not allow it. unless wife divorce and spend a special period of time then can marry new man.

      "no true religion in the world ask its followers to fight with enemy."
      fight in Islam has many rules and in especial cases like defend Islam allow fight. if some want to kill your family and friends what you do? stand and watch? or defend?
      any religion not allow fight when needed is stupid. please first understand fight rules in Islam.
      fight potentially is not bad. hos to use it can be bad. its like knife.

      "no true religion in the world promises its followers houris (prostitutes?) in heaven."
      so you do not know true religions.

      "no true religion in the world treats its Allah as a pimp."
      virgins are reward of believers. no problem. are you jealous?
      what cows give their believers as reward? dung? milk? meat? [sorry when you do not respect my prophet I talk so]

      "a Greek thinker had arrived at the same conclusion long before. don't make him a prophet of Allah."
      yes. and I did not claim so. thousands of wonders of Koran together prove it. not only one.

      ""Koran said sun will turn off one day"
      ok i agree."
      now people know it. please consider it in context of tribal Arab of 1400 years ago. they had not NASA.

      "" Koran says sun is moving"
      what is the big deal here? a child of 1 yr old could say that."
      child say apparently. but actually sun is moving. not relative.

      "are you talking about the shouting from the loud speakers daily morning"
      it means defiance ; gage to people make a verse like Koran. no one in history could until know. even great arab poets
    • Jul 23 2011: "if you marry many women it is easy to tell about all reproductive function."
      human eye has not microscope and sonography.

      ""Koran may times claimed you can not make a book or a chapter like Koran"
      ask a monkey with a typewriter."
      no worthy to reply. I doubt you one day learn to talk respectfully. fear the punishment of God.
      this is clear in history that no one could during history although many Arab poets and others tried
  • Jul 19 2011: This is a claim you made in your opening statement.
    "But Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict."

    This is a claim you make in a response.
    "only one word of Koran has conflict in text but is not important in meaning."

    Lets assume Koran is truth. Mans interpretation of Koran is fallible.

    I believe you have doubts. If you were complete with your own thoughts, you would not find it so compelling to prove it to anyone else. I too am on the fence and am waiting for someone to convince me I'm wrong. It is the nature of man to seek answers.

    The truth is as long as you are happy and I am happy then we are happy. You and I will meet our ends one day. Let's let our truths be realized then. Peace
  • Comment deleted

    • Jul 18 2011: Dear Ed,
      first please look at this long list:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions
      I agree "when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion"
      but this is not true about Abraham religions.
      Abraham religions have not human sources.
      but other human made religions like atheism and Buddhism and so on you are correct.
      believing that God not exist without proof is delusion.

      what you mean by TRUE potential of the Koran? example?
  • Jul 16 2011: S.R. Ahmadi,

    Please give your thoughts on the following excerpt taken from an Islamic reference:

    "The common notion of abrogation, that is, canceling of one law or code by another, is based on the idea that a new law is needed because of a mistake or shortcoming in the previous one. It is clearly inappropriate to ascribe a mistake in law-making to God, Who is perfect, and whose creation admit of no flaws.

    However, in the Quran, the abrogating verses mark the end of the validity of the abrogated verses because their heed and effect was of a temporary or limited nature. In time the new law appears and announces the end of the validity of the earlier law. Considering that Quran was revealed over a period of twenty-three years in ever-changing circumstances, it is not difficult to imagine the necessity of such laws.

    It is in this light that we should regard the wisdom of abrogation within the Quran:

    "And when we put a revelation in place of (another) revelation and Allah knows best what He reveals -- they say: you are just inventing it. Most of them do not know. Say: The Holy Spirit (Gibril) has revealed it from your hand with truth and as a guidance and good news for those who have surrendered (to God)" [16:101-102]"

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2656
    • Jul 18 2011: Dear friend,
      I explained this here:

      http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html

      please read carefully.
      it is not changing mind in God. it is changing command according to change in context of human life.

      example:
      people came to home of prophet and sit there and not go out. and prophet did not say them go your home. they only sit and not any question or useful talk. only wasting time.
      so God sent a verse and said:
      who wants to visit prophet should pay one coin.
      then no one visited prophet unless Ali. Ali came to prophet and asked him questions and learned the knowledge from God about every thing.
      then God again sent a verse:
      if you want to visit prophet not need to pay money any more. the past rule is cancelled.
      I hope you got it.
      it is in fact teaching to people. not God has problem.
      • Jul 18 2011: So even if you convince me of everything else, I have to be certain that the world has changed much more in the 1400 years since the Koran was written than the 23 years it took to write it. The logical conclusion to this is that MANY, MOST, THE VAST MAJORITY of the Koran needs to be abrogated and is therefore not relevant to modern day man. This makes the book anything but perfect.

        I will go into more detail as to how the teachings of the Koran got progressively more hostile as the book reaches the end. The earlier teachings were much more about love and the later were much more about smiting enemies of Islam. There are clear contradictions in the Koran. This proves your #9 point wrong.

        By the way, you didn't convince me of anything else concerning the perfection of the book in question.
        • Jul 20 2011: when God sends a new religion/book/prophet it means the past religion is not working more and needs a new original and updated version.
          Koran is update and fresh until end of world.
          can you show some example that needs abrogated?
          also Koran has many verses of Love. but people do not know it well.

          'There are clear contradictions in the Koran."
          example? the claim does not prove.

          this is not for convincing the perfection. it needs your interest and time and more study.
      • Jul 20 2011: "THE VERSE OF THE SWORD
        The verse that Abrogated (nullified) the Peace Verses.

        An example of the abrogation: There are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience that have been cancelled and replaced by one, single verse. This verse is called the verse of the sword:

        "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." Surah 9:5

        Verses that support the verse of the Sword

        1) “Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of believers” (Surah 9:14).

        2) “O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque” (Surah 9:28).

        3) “The Jews call ‘Uzayr a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!” (Surah 9:30).

        4) “O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell – an evil refuge indeed” (Surah 9:73).

        5) “O ye who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him” (Surah 9:123)"
        • Jul 20 2011: please read some verse before and after it.
          fight in Islam has many rules and is not for any kind of non Muslims.
          this is not fair picking only sword verses.
          please consider all and understand in which conditions Islam allow fight.

          also wars after prophet with pagan Arab emperors in the name of Islam is different of wars of prophet himself.
      • Jul 20 2011: "Some of the verses abrogated by the verse of the Sword:

        1) “Those who believe (in the Qua’an), and the Christians and the Sabians – any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve” (Surah 2:62).

        2) “Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplish his purpose” (Surah 2:109).

        3) “But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them – barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind” (Surah 5:13).

        4) “Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself no protector or intercessor except Allah: if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in rejecting Allah” (Surah 6:70)."
        • Jul 20 2011: no verse is abrogated in Koran.
          they are apparently conflict verses. but they are defining different conditions and different rules. all verses should be considered together and any action should have conflict with even one verse of Koran. unless it is not Islamic. the verses are limitations for actions of Muslims and define how Muslims should behave. but few Muslims obey all verses of Koran. usually Muslims pick the verse fitting their benefit.
      • Jul 20 2011: "5) “But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah” (Surah 8:61)

        6) “And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury); but say, ‘We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)” (Surah 29:46).

        7) “And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): worship none but Allah” (Surah 2:83).

        8) “Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that we are sincere (in our faith) in Him?” (Surah 2:139)

        9) “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors” (Surah 2:190)

        10) “But fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there” (Surah 2:191)

        11) “But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful” (Surah 2:192)."
      • Jul 20 2011: "12) “But there is no compulsion in religion” (Surah 2:256).

        13) “So if they dispute with thee, say: ‘I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me,’ And say to the People of the Book and so to those who are unlearned: ‘do ye (also) submit yourself? If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message” (Surah 3:20).

        14) “Let not the Believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers; if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourself from them” (Surah 3:28).

        15) “Those men – Allah knows what is in their hearts; so keep clear of them, but admonish them, and speak to them a word to reach their souls” (Surah 4:63) .

        16) “He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: but if any turn away, we have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds)” (Surah 4:80).

        17) “But Allah records their nightly (plots): so keep clear of them, and put thy trust in Allah” (Surah 4:81).

        18) “Then fight in Allah’s cause – thou art held responsible only for thyself” (Surah 4:84).

        19) “Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore, if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of ) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)” (Surah 4:90).

        20) “O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the Symbols of Allah, nor of the Sacred Month” (Surah 5:2)."

        http://www.islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml
        • Jul 20 2011: I agree you.
          but it is not abrogated.
          verses of Koran totally should be done. not only one that fit benefit.
          this is problem of Muslims. not Islam and Koran and God.
          Muslim is different of Islam.
          Islam is a perfect instruction but Muslims are not perfect.
          the people Koran was sent to them did not have value of Koran.
          Koran also say this:
          http://tanzil.net/#47:38
          this verse shows God is not satisfied from Arabs that God sent Koran to them and God wants to substitute them with another people to use Koran better.
      • Jul 20 2011: S.R. Ahmadi,

        You're just not telling the truth.

        " no verse is abrogated in Koran.
        they are apparently conflict verses. but they are defining different conditions and different rules"

        Abrogation is taught in Islam. Explain: "And when we put a revelation in place of (another) revelation and Allah knows best what He reveals -- they say: you are just inventing it. Most of them do not know. Say: The Holy Spirit (Gibril) has revealed it from your hand with truth and as a guidance and good news for those who have surrendered (to God)" [16:101-102]" if it is not the basis for the Abrogation of verses.

        Conflicted verses proves your #9 claim 100% wrong. The Verse of the Sword is a perfect example to disprove many of your arguments. I can show other examples as well, but I will not move on until you truthfully address this example.
        • Jul 21 2011: Dear friend,
          I have explained this many times before.
          please read it here:
          http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html

          this is an example of what you say:
          example:
          people came to home of prophet and sit there and not go out. and prophet did not say them go your home. they only sit and not any question or useful talk. only wasting time.
          so God sent a verse and said:
          who wants to visit prophet should pay one coin.
          then no one visited prophet unless Ali. Ali came to prophet and asked him questions and learned the knowledge from God about every thing.
          then God again sent a verse:
          if you want to visit prophet not need to pay money any more. the past rule is cancelled.
          I hope you got it.
          it is in fact teaching to people. not God has problem.


          please note Abrogation is different of contradict.
          when Koran Abrogates a verse clearly say that the past verse about this subject is Abrogated from now. this is conflict?
          it is like a commander in a war orders : go ahead and some days later says: the past command is Abrogated and now come back. this is not conflict.

          also about peace and fight verses if you read them carefully and exactly you find they have not conflict because each verse is for diffrent people and diffrent condition. if Koran have two verse in this form:
          1- fight x people in condition y
          2- peace x people in condition y
          then you are OK this is conflict
          but if say:
          1- fight x people in condition y
          2- peace z people in condition w
          then this is not contradict

          Koran not say fight any kind of non muslim. also Koran say killing some kind of muslims.
          please read verses carefully and know exactly who Koran say to fight.
      • Jul 21 2011: S.R. Ahmadi,

        Which claim are you standing by?

        "No verse is abrogated in Koran."

        Or...

        "please note Abrogation is different of contradict.
        when Koran Abrogates a verse clearly say that the past verse about this subject is Abrogated from now."

        If I am going to continue to debate this subject with you, I insist on you being truthful for the future exchanges. I also suggest not attempting to confuse the actual subject by using poor comparisons to hypothetical situations. Argue your points from the information quoted from the Koran, the book in question.

        Tell me what THE VERSE OF THE SWORD means to you---But only do it if you are going to answer truthfully. Then explain to me how that does not contradict with the 20 "friendly" verses I listed above.

        I am willing to discuss other clear examples of contradiction in the Koran, but let's get to the truth about this one first.
        • Jul 23 2011: sorry,
          my language is not english.
          I had a misunderstanding of Abrogation.
          I say:
          Koran has Abrogation but this is not error or contradiction. the Abrogations in Koran are clear and show the change of order of God for change in behavior of people. this is not error.

          about THE VERSE OF THE SWORD it says fighting to some ESPECIAL people. please do not misinterpret Koran about who should be fought. first understand who and in what condition Koran says should be fought. then say your argument.
          if Koran say fight people X IF they did behavior Y this not mean Koran says all non muslims should be killed.
          for example Koran says kill who pray things other than God IF they wanted to kill you. this has 2 term.
          I only say please be honest and first understand what Koran says and do not misquote Koran.
          many non muslims are respected by Koran and Islam and many Muslims should be killed according Koran.
      • Jul 23 2011: S.R. Ahmadi,

        There you go with X and Y explanations again. Please tell me what The verse of the sword means to you and how it does not contradict the 20 "friendly" verses I quoted above. Please tell me TRUTHFULLY if The Verse of the Sword is seen as an abrogating verse (I know the answer already, but I want to see if you will admit it).

        You say that the Koran has no contradictions. If the Koran says two different things, it has contradictions. Abrogation of verses proves the Koran says two different things.

        I am not sure that you had a misunderstanding of abrogation, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. We are making some progress here, but it seems you keep trying to slow it down.

        Again, I say that if there was need to change orders from Allah in the 23 years it took to write the book, how is it not needed to change much more in the 1400 years since then? Please give an honest answer for this too.
        • Jul 23 2011: 1- your verses of sword and peace are not considered as verses of "Abrogated" in Koran. Abrogated verses are few known verses that a verses is clearly Abrogated by a new verse. but your examples does not include Abrogated verses.

          please read here:
          http://goo.gl/j66hs

          "Please tell me TRUTHFULLY if The Verse of the Sword is seen as an abrogating verse "
          it is not abrogating verse.
          it is not general and is for special people.

          "The command was not general but only refers to particular groups of the Makkan idolaters who were notorious offenders. They used to harass the Muslims whenever they found them helpless and when overpowered prayed for amnesty by making treaties which they used to break before their ink was dried. "

          "You say that the Koran has no contradictions. If the Koran says two different things, it has contradictions."
          yes. Koran in few cases says clearly that a past command is Abrogated and this new command should be done. this is Abrogation and are few known cases. contradiction is completely different thing.

          "Abrogation of verses proves the Koran says two different things.'
          yes two different thing. but the past is clearly cancelled by new clear command. did you read my example of Abrogation? (paying money for visiting prophet)

          about peace and sword verses you say there is no Abrogation or contradiction and each verse is for different people and different case.
          http://goo.gl/j66hs

          "Again, I say that if there was need to change orders from Allah in the 23 years it took to write the book, how is it not needed to change much more in the 1400 years since then? "
          only few cases needed change that God clearly in Koran made changes and cleared the changes and few abrogations finished by finishing of revelation of Koran. if needed more abrogation Indeed God did it before finishing revelation.

          "how is it not needed to change much more in the 1400 years since then? '
          some needed change not mean always Koran should change. this argument is not valid.
        • Jul 23 2011: please read the whole story and do not cut one verse:
          http://tanzil.net/#9:1

          please read here about this subject:
          http://www.al-islam.org/peace-jihad-in-islam/3.htm

          http://www.al-islam.org/peace-jihad-in-islam/
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      • Jul 16 2011: Dear The Crusader,
        you do not know how much Iqbal made me angry and I controlled myself it is some month he is throwing me such thing about Islam. finally I decided to show him how is not respecting others. this was only one lesson to him and now I apologize him.

        back or front to Kaaba is not important. obeying real God is important. and God said we pray in this form.
    • Jul 16 2011: why war?
      we are brothers. peace and talk is better.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 16 2011: OK no problem. I accept and talk any critique about Islam. but from who really want to know. not from who does not hear the reply and only wants to curse Muslims in the face of critique.
      • Jul 16 2011: SR -

        you say, "why war?
        we are brothers. peace and talk is better." Agreed. Therefore stop following the Qur'an. The basic idea of Islam is that there will be peace only when everyone in the world see's it their way.

        Qur'an 8:39 "(Believers), fight them until there is no more persecution, and all worship is devoted to Allah alone:"

        Not reason with them, not patiently show them your message until the see the validity or beauty of it. No, fight them means in a physical sense. Your country was defeated militarily by Muslim aggressors from Arabia, as was most of the Middle East. Islam failed when reason alone was used, only after the Hijrah when Muslims used aggression, terror and war against their neighbors did the religion flourish. Don't lie, you know this is the truth. Read the Hadith. Muhammad ordered his followers to invite others to join Islam and pay the taxes. If they refused, his followers were to fight them until they were subdued.

        History is written by the victors. If the Muslims had not overpowered Persia by force and then brainwashed to people into believing Islam, you would not be a Muslim today. You would independently read the Qur'an for the first time and probably (like me) think "this is crap"!

        Does Islam have the one and only true message? Well if you have to spend lifetimes explaining the contradictions, historical falseness, divergence from previous scripture that it is supposed to confirm and outright lies in the scripture, then No.

        You think the reasoning of these explanations is sound but it only works if you start out believing in the Qur'an and use convoluted reasoning to explain it. In the end, an open mind will admit that Islam creates separation.

        How can peace be found by forcing everyone to Submit to a particular doctrine? This requires dictatorial rule and tyranny. Kinda like what you see in all Islamic countries in the world today.

        Once again: You can surrender to Love, but you cannot be in Submission to it.
        • Jul 18 2011: "Therefore stop following the Qur'an."
          Quran is not a cause of war. war exist in anyway. war is nature of human. the Palestinians killed are for Quran?
          anything we follow war always exist. can you show one day in history of human with no war?
          100% peace is impossible.
          peace is better but some times there is no solution unless war. like defend.
          war is last solution like cutting sick organ of body.
          talk and logic in peace is better.

          "Qur'an 8:39 "(Believers), fight them "
          please do not pick war verse. also pick peace verse. war in Islam has many rules and not any non Muslim should be killed. who block hearing by people should be killed. not all.

          "Not reason with them, "
          please be honest. Koran is not only this verse.
          fight them. who are them? them is defined. please do not interpret "them" by yourself

          'Islam failed when reason alone was used"
          please be honest. Muhammad sent letter to Persia empire and he turned off it. this is reason? they even did not want to talk Muslims. the first letter of Islam was tear up and no talk.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_letters_to_the_Heads-of-State

          "Don't lie, you know this is the truth."
          oh my God! you know better what is truth. truth is not what Freemason Jews feed him.

          "Muhammad ordered his followers to invite others to join Islam and pay the taxes."
          he started by sending letter and inviting to talk. but they replied letter by war.
          what means tearing up a letter?
          also please distinguish wars of Muhammad (PBUH) himself and wars of pagan Arab emperors after prophet in the name of Islam.

          "If they refused, his followers were to fight them until they were subdued."
          this is not in Hadith. Koran clearly say:
          http://tanzil.net/#2:256 people are free to accept or not accept Islam. please first understand Islam. fight is with Kings (like church) that isolate their people from truth about Islam and feed lie about Islam to their people. Islam only wants to talk free and all hear free. who block talk, Islam fight him.
        • Jul 18 2011: also zekat tax is paid by Muslims direct to poor people. not to government.

          "History is written by the victors. If the Muslims had not overpowered Persia by force and then brainwashed to people into believing Islam, "
          all have history. not only arabs. Persia itself has history.
          Persians are not monkey. they select by think an wisdom. this is Indeed false that Islam spread with sword.

          "Does Islam have the one and only true message?"
          there is no God but Allah.

          "You think the reasoning of these explanations is sound but it only works if you start out believing in the Qur'an and use convoluted reasoning to explain it. I'
          please do not prejudice. ocean of knowledge and reason exist about Islam. you only know little.

          "How can peace be found by forcing everyone to Submit to a particular doctrine? "
          who forced?
          http://tanzil.net/#2:256
          please first understand Islam. you have dark Image of Islam. your Image is not true.
          if a Muslim force other to accept Islam he is not Muslim. he is pagan and should go Hell.
          http://tanzil.net/#2:256
          this is opposite to order of God.

          Islam not fight for forcing other accept Islam. people are free to accept or not. fight is for other reason.

          "Once again: You can surrender to Love, but you cannot be in Submission to it. "
          your define of Love differs with mine.
          but submission to God is best.
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    • Jul 12 2011: Ed,
      OK
      this poem totally says that Rumi is so much Loving God that does not want anything But God.
      human is composed of body and soul.
      body has only 5 sense.
      but soul has many more senses
      the senses of soul are potential and not active by default
      when some one starts growing spiritually his soul becomes more and more powerful and can optionally exit the body. (optional death). it is something like NDE which you go out of body and can see your body from above and you can go anywhere you want even go out of universe with no limit because soul is not material to have limit of time and place.
      whey you are sleep you see dreams and go places while your eye of head is closed.
      it is eye of soul (one sense of soul) but at sleep usual people have not free will in sleep. but who their soul is grown they have free will of soul. when they leave their body (at sleep or awake) they can decide where to go or to soul of who speak (even speak with "face of God" وجه الله) with their soul while their body is inactive or active, sleep or awake
      such people feel extreme love with God and if they have enough growth and requirements they can meet God when they leave their body. such situation has extreme enjoy (enjoy is perceived with soul, not body. bod is like a sensor and brain is a terminal to send information to soul).
      meeting God when leaving body has a very very extreme enjoy that no one can understand it unless himself experiences it. it is like you feel you want to explode from inside and only few humans can stand such extreme enjoy.
      when Rumi is in such condition noting has any value and interest for him and says such poem. when a human experiences such enjoy at near of God does not want to trade one moment of such enjoy with all the world and all tings inside it. this is what means Rumi in this poem.
      such level of spiritual growth only and only can be reached by fearing God and knowing God:
      this is detailed instruction of reaching such level:
      http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/193.htm
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        • Jul 12 2011: sorry what you mean by "on the convex surface of the eighth sphere" ?

          did you know suf means wool and sufi means who wears wool cloths (the cheapest cloth which usually was symbol of poor people in past). or who have much money but give it to poor people and themselves have no interest in money or welfare.
          also prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was wearing wool cloths because there is a law in Islam: the top leader of a society should live at the level of the poorest person of that society. for example a leader of country can eat a food only if all people have enough money to buy it.
          actually real sufi is very rare today. and many of who claim are sufi are doing business and are not real sufi.
          the leader and head and role model of real sufi is Ali (PBUH) (above link is part of sayings of Ali).
          if a sufi does not follow Ali is not a real sufi and only claims that is sufi.
          the behavior of a real sufi should not have any conflict with Ali guides.
          one day the Arab King of that time said: Ali does not give money to poor people. Ali had a garden and was producing dates and selling it and giving its money to poor people (but at night by covered face to poor people do not know Ali to sense shame. so no one knew who is giving them food)
          when Ali heard this saying from that King said to his workers sell dates and collect its monies. for some days they collected the gold coins of selling dates and it became a hill and they covered on it by dates. then Ali invited that King to his garden and said to one of workers walk near that Hill and uncover some of gold coins as unintentional to the King see coins. that worker did what Ali said and the King saw the gold coins and asked: what is this?
          Ali said: this is the bounty of my income.

          his cloth was simple and the food of Ali himself was bread and salt or bread and water or milk.
          one day his daughter took food for Ali: bread and milk and salt and Ali said:
          when you have seen I eat a food with two feeding?
        • Jul 12 2011: today sufi have mixed some superstition and false information to real "knowing of God".
          for example some false sayings of today sufis:

          1- when soul grow spiritually the eyes of soul open and see some non-material spiritual lumine things (out of material world. something like sleep dream but while being consciousnesses). but Satan some times shows some fake lumine objects to soul and the man things is seeing God or angels of God. some sufi can not distinguish it and consider themselves accepted by God.


          2- some sufis say that when you become a sufi you become friend of God and then no need do do Islamic rules like praying or fasting because God does not want such things from his friends and they are for simple Muslims and you can do anything you like (even evil deeds which are sin and disobeying God). but this is false and God rules does not change even for prophets.
  • Comment deleted

    • Jul 11 2011: Dear Ed,
      Persian:
      چه تدبیر ای مسلمانان که من خود را نمیدانم. نه ترسا نه یهودم من نه گبر و نه مسلمانم
      نه شرقیم نه غربیم نه بریم نه بحریم نه از ارکان طبیعیم نه از افلاک گردانم
      نه از هندم نه از چینم نه ار بلغار و سقسینم نه از ملک عراقینم نه از خاک خراسانم
      نه از خاکم نه از آبم نه از بادم نه از آتش نه از عرشم نه از فرشم نه ازکونم نه از کانم
      نه از دنیا نه از عقبی نه از جنت نه دوزخ نه از آدم نه از حوا نه از فردوس و رضوانم
      هوالاول هوالاخر هوالظاهر هوالباطن که من جز هو و یا من هو کس دیگر نمیدانم
      مکانم لا مکان باشد نشانم بی نشان باشد نه تن باشد نه جان باشد که من از جان جانانم
      دوئی را چون برون کردم دو عالم را یکی دیدم یکی بینم یکی جویم یکی دانم یکی خوانم
      اگر در عمر خود روزی دمی بی تو برآوردم از آن روز و از آن ساعت پشیمانم پشیمانم
      زجام عشق سر مستم دو عالم رفته ازدستم به جز رندی و قلاشی نباشد هیچ سامانم
      اگر دستم دهد روزی دمی با تو در این خلوت دو عالم زیر پای آرم همی دستی بر افشانم
      الا ای شمس تبریزی چنان مستم در این عالم که جزمستی و سرمستی دگر چیزی نمی دانم.

      parts about God are removed in your version.
      this part which is after "nor paradise or its porter.;" My place is the placeless, " is removed:
      هوالاول هوالاخر هوالظاهر هوالباطن که من جز هو و یا من هو کس دیگر نمیدانم
      which is about God and means:
      he is first, he is last, he is apparent, he is inside that I unless he and O! he I do no know any one else

      generally that verse means Rumi is so much drawn in love of God that unless God does not know anything and he has forgotten and forgiven anything about himself like his town or anything and only and only knows God and anything has no value for him unless God. this is the highest level of Loving God that a human can reach and is very hard to reach.
    • Jul 11 2011: please reply in the same tread.
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    • Jul 11 2011: I mean some complete sentences are cut from inside this poem of Rumi.
      can you find the complete version or I say it?

      sorry what yo mean by "I Am"?
  • Comment deleted

    • Jul 11 2011: Hi,
      this poem is not complete and some parts of it [I think intentionally] has been cut.
      very beautiful poem.
      I was shocked by this poem. I have not been seen this before.

      advice:
      please take care about Dervishes. mostly their beliefs are mix of Islam and non-Islam. they some times abuse poems.
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    Jul 10 2011: Well, my little cyber-vaction must come to an end. My wife has come home. Thank you for a spirited discussion.

    I'll check in again later.
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    Jul 10 2011: Hi S.R. Ahmadi,

    Why is it important to you to prove the Koran?

    That is a much more interesting discussion than trying to prove something that cannot be proven.

    Christians have spent a good deal of time "proving the bible" - and there is still no agreement, by the way. And they have about a 500-year head start on the Koran.

    Here's a quote from a typical Christian website: "...Christianity is not a blind faith. It is the only religion that can prove itself, and a main source of that proof is the Bible."

    So, how about this: We all accept the Koran might or might not be true (it cannot be (transactionally) "proven" either way - so let's stop "arguing" the point) and you share with us why it is so important to you that the Quran: القرآن‎ be true.
    • Jul 10 2011: Hello Thomas,
      "Why is it important to you to prove the Koran?"
      because I Love God and I see many people are disproving God.

      "something that cannot be proven."
      why you think so? if people do enough research it can be proved.

      please do not compare Bible with Koran.
      today Bible is written by human. but not Koran.

      no agreement is not for proof or disprove. actually accepting Koran or Bible has conflict with worldly enjoys. and it is hard for people to neglect enjoys like wine. so people prefer do not agree.

      "a quote from a typical Christian website:"
      nearly all religions claim this about themselves. but it is duty of a wise human to research and seek and find which claim is true.

      "So, how about this: We all accept the Koran might or might not be true"
      this has no value because this is always true for everything.
      this is an always true statement.

      its important for me because every one has one important idea and wants to spread it.
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        Jul 10 2011: Hi S.R. Ahmadi,

        QUOTE: "Why is it important to you to prove the Koran?"
        because I Love God and I see many people are disproving God.

        So you want to prove the Koran because you love God.

        Do you think you have to prove the Koran to prove your love of God?

        What if you had been born 2000 years ago (or 10,000) - how would you prove your love of God then?

        QUOTE: "please do not compare Bible with Koran. today Bible is written by human. but not Koran."

        I am not comparing the Koran with the Bible. I am comparing the commitment Christians have to the Bible to the commitment Muslims have to the Koran.

        I think you will find that Christians are just as committed to "proving" their book is the ONLY word of God as Muslims are committed to proving the Koran is THE word of God.
        • Jul 10 2011: "Do you think you have to prove the Koran to prove your love of God?"
          No. Love is something in heart (not physical heart) and i have no need to prove my love to you.

          "What if you had been born 2000 years ago (or 10,000) - how would you prove your love of God then?"
          I am not proving my Love. I am spreading my ideas

          "I am not comparing the Koran with the Bible. I am comparing the commitment Christians have to the Bible to the commitment Muslims have to the Koran."
          not any commitment is real commitment. also some Indians have commitment to cows and believe they are Gods. I mean do not Judge about Koran based on your images in your mind. please Judge about Koran independent with your think and knowledge.

          "Christians are just as committed to "proving" their book "
          proving which Bible? they themselves know there is different versions of bible and its not clear which is truth and they know many false information is mixed into bible.
          but there is only one version of Koran text and there is no doubt this Koran is exactly what prophet of God said.
          all near 2 Billion Muslim only have one version of Koran text even different cults.
          I know church made people escape from religion. but this is irrelevant to Koran.
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        Jul 10 2011: QUOTE: ""Do you think you have to prove the Koran to prove your love of God?"
        No. Love is something in heart (not physical heart) and i have no need to prove my love to you."

        Hi S.R. Ahmadi,

        I asked you why it is important that to prove the Koran and you said because "I love God ..."

        And now you are saying you have no need to prove your love. (I never implied you had to prove your love to me or to anyone else ... you did.)

        QUOTE: "I am not proving my Love. I am spreading my ideas"

        I would disagree with you there. You are not spreading your ideas. You are spreading someone else's ideas that you believe strongly.

        QUOTE: "...not any commitment is real commitment. "

        So you are saying your commitment is real and the Christians' commitment is not?

        Some Christians would say the same thing about you.

        Who do you think is right?

        Could you both be right?

        Could you both be wrong?

        QUOTE: "I mean do not Judge about Koran based on your images in your mind."

        I am not judging the Koran at all. I am engaging in a discussion with you.

        QUOTE: " ...please Judge about Koran independent with your think and knowledge."

        Would you like me to judge the Koran based on what you think and on your knowledge?

        QUOTE: "... there is only one version of Koran text and there is no doubt this Koran is exactly what prophet of God said."

        That there is only one is not confirmation of its fidelity or veracity.

        You believe the Koran was spoken by Allah, heard by The Prophet Mohammad, and written down by the Sabahas and that, for these reasons, it is undeniably true.

        Am I correct?
        • Jul 10 2011: "I would disagree with you there. You are not spreading your ideas. You are spreading someone else's ideas that you believe strongly."
          agree. my ideas are influenced from Koran. but also mixing my own study and knowledge with Koran I also found new Ideas. for example by studying atomic physics of Evolution then reading Koran I found new Ideas. but basically I agree you my ideas are based on Koran.

          "So you are saying your commitment is real and the Christians' commitment is not?"
          if we consider original versions of religions (at time of prophet) both my commitments and Christians commitments are real and true. but today false information has mixed to true religions (for example God is a human or trinity or some false beliefs in Islam)
          but totally today Islam is much more original and real and truth compared with Christianity.
          also even if we have access to 100% original Christianity religion today God does not accept believing it because God sent the more updated religion for humans.

          "Some Christians would say the same thing about you."
          yea all religions say this about other religions.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions


          "Who do you think is right?"
          my reply this question is not valid. its like a seller say my product is best product. its duty of each individual human to seek reply of this question for himself. because IF hell exist (no one could prove it not exist) no one can help you escape from Hell. so it is duty of each individual human. I did my research and I am open to new information and this is one reason I am at TED. I want to check if there is any new belief can overcome my current beliefs or not (with enough proof. not claims from biased people).
          also I am ready to share my researches and help people in saving time in research. I can reply some FAQ that usually people counter in seeking God and true religions. and people are free to accept and discuss my replies or not.
        • Jul 10 2011: "Could you both be right?"
          yes its possible.
          there is only one truth. 2+2 can not be both 4 and 5
          both can be right if beliefs have no conflict.

          "Could you both be wrong?"
          yes its possible.
          but in real world I think some of my beliefs maybe false. not all. also about christians. not all of their beliefs are wrong. Indeed some common beliefs exist.
          also I believe finding truth is not impossible.
          seeker is finder.

          "I am not judging the Koran at all. I am engaging in a discussion with you."
          I happy to see a human discussing without prejudice about Islam and Koran.
          usually western people think all Muslims are something like Bin Ladan.

          "That there is only one is not confirmation of its fidelity or veracity."
          yes and I did not said so. but this is part of proving fidelity and veracity of Koran.
          there is no doubt in Koran for a real SEEKER.

          "You believe the Koran was spoken by Allah, heard by The Prophet Mohammad, and written down by the Sabahas and that, for these reasons, it is undeniably true."

          actually proving validity of Koran being exactly from God is not so short and simple.
          every doubt has studies and discussed very deep among Muslim scientists and historians and researchers and family tree specialists and has very tough methods. I can not say them in 2000 char. but if you interested I can refer you to some references. although most best references are not available in English. but still some good references can be found in English.
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        Jul 10 2011: QUOTE: "if we consider original versions of religions (at time of prophet) both my commitments and Christians commitments are real and true. but today false information has mixed to true religions..."

        Christians would disagree with you there - again, a typical quote from a Christian website: "The Bible is God's inspired, inerrant Word representing Absolute Truth and our final authority in all matters..." - That is present tense; present day. And unequivocal.

        Muslims say that the Koran came later and supersedes the Bible. Christians say the Bible came first and the Koran is irrelevant (at best.)

        QUOTE: "...there is no doubt in Koran for a real SEEKER."

        No doubt.

        If what one is seeking is to be found in the Koran, then a seeker of such knowledge will, no doubt, be satisfied.

        But what if what a PARTICULAR SEEKER is seeking is not to be found in the Koran? Or in any other book? Then what? Then the Koran. And every other book will fill the seeker with doubt.

        This is a challenging question for "True Believers." The True Believers I know have a sense that because they have found what they are seeking, in, say, the Bible, that all other true seekers will also find what they are looking for in the same place.

        The flaw, as I am sure you can see, is the assumption that all seekers are seeking the same thing.

        QUOTE: "actually proving validity of Koran being exactly from God is not so short and simple."

        And yet you are attempting to do so on a website "filled with" humanists, secularists, skeptics, and various and sundry other non-believers.

        You are brave. Or foolish. Maybe a little of both? ;-)
        • Jul 10 2011: "That is present tense; present day. And unequivocal."
          actually believers are a wide range of believers. they all are not the same.
          most of them know false information is mixed in bible during history. while also some like believers you say exist today. but I have a simple question from them: which version of bible do you think is truth? how you ensure your version of bible is true?
          also if such Christians exist so what?

          "Muslims say that the Koran came later and supersedes the Bible."
          Muslims do not say this. this is false. Muslims believe bible and Jesus (PBUH) and also Torah and Moses (PBUH) there is many sayings of those prophets in islam and Muslims respect and follow them.
          what Muslims say is this:
          God sent a more complete book for humans according changes to human life context and deviations in old scriptures and a real believer should accept all messengers of God the same.

          "Christians say the Bible came first and the Koran is irrelevant (at best.)"
          OK. I am not professional in Christianity religion. better to not say anything.

          "If what one is seeking is to be found in the Koran"
          I do not meed a seeker seek inside Koran. a seeker first seeks the proofs and evidences about validity of Koran then if convinced starts reading Koran.

          "But what if what a PARTICULAR SEEKER is seeking is not to be found in the Koran. Or in any other book? Then what? Then the Koran. And every other book will fill the seeker with doubt."
          Koran is not alone. Koran has a heavy thing with itself:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_the_two_weighty_things
          please read my reply to Eduard here:
          http://live12.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html?c=266738
          the "people of message" never say "I do not know" if you ask any kind of question. you can ask them.
        • Jul 10 2011: "The True Believers I know have a sense that because they have found what they are seeking"
          how you define "true believer" believe in what? if some one believes in God and believes God set some prophets then accepts all prophets the same. prophets are like postmans.

          there is a Persian poem:
          musk is what itself smells. not what seller says.

          true believer is not who says I am true believer. you have enough wisdom to find who is true believer.

          does a true believer accept one messenger of same message sender and reject other messenger?

          "The flaw, as I am sure you can see, is the assumption that all seekers are seeking the same thing."
          agree.

          "And yet you are attempting to do so on a website "filled with" with humanists, secularists, skeptics, and various and sundry other non-believers."
          please do not prejudice. you are wise enough to distinguish wrong and true claims.
          first hear then judge.
          http://tanzil.net/#39:18

          if I ask you prove me Evolution probably you say me same reply and ask me read some references. because it is not possible in a short comment.

          "You are brave. Or foolish. Maybe a little of both? ;-) "
          better you decide it.
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        Jul 10 2011: QUOTE: "I did my research and I am open to new information and this is one reason I am at TED. I want to check if there is any new belief can overcome my current beliefs or not (with enough proof. not claims from biased people)."

        Excellent attitude.

        Although, I'm not sure if you'll have much luck finding unbiased people.

        I like playing thought experiments. Here is one that relates to a question I asked you earlier:

        Imagine you were born, say, 7000 years ago. How would you find your true heart's desire then?

        There would be no Koran. No Bible. No books. Just you - and your heart - and your longing.
        • Jul 10 2011: "Imagine you were born, say, 7000 years ago. How would you find your true heart's desire then?"

          this is my rule:
          I hear all voices and select best.

          if at 7000 years ago some one told me there is a Hell after death I asked him explain and show me some proof.
          if no one said me such thing I did not notice this and did my regular life.
          as this is an unreal condition this is hard to reply. but please note heart has two aspect: one part of heart ask you do good deeds and one part ask you do evil deeds. (not religious deeds) for example what you heart says about steal at 7000 years ago? (there is no police no law no religion no book,...)

          lets do not Imagine unreal problems while our real problems are not solved.
          the real problem is this:
          1- we are human
          2- we have wisdom
          3- we have free will to accept God/Hell/Koran/after death or not accept
          4- some things called prophets (at least Koran) exist today (as a message and warning before death about after death) that can not be neglected

          now what we should do?

          God does not punish without enough warning and proof and evidence left in earth accessible for human and enough time for finding and understanding then (a whole life). unless God is cruel to send human in Hell.
          but people wast their life with plays and games.
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        Jul 10 2011: QUOTE: "I have a simple question from them: which version of bible do you think is truth?

        You are missing the point (perhaps intentionally?) - the point is not whether the Bible (or the Koran) is true or not - the point is the quality of the belief that their adherents share.

        I believe in ___________. [Fill in the blank.]

        You seem to think that what you put in the blank has an impact on the operative phrase: "I believe in."

        It doesn't. Unless you are looking from outside of the belief system.

        So you look at a Christian who says I believe in the Bible - and you ask, "Which one? [And I am not saying it is not a valid question.] But from the point of view of the Christian, it is meaningless.

        So, now, you say, "I believe in the Koran," and some people might ask, "How can you believe in such nonsense - it is the work of Satan?"

        And to you the question is meaningless (and probably offensive.)

        I am talking about "belief." Not the Koran or the Bible.

        QUOTE: "Muslims say that the Koran came later and supersedes the Bible."
        Muslims do not say this. this is false.

        Yes you do - and no it is not. If you were to read one thing in the Bible and a contradictory thing in the Koran, which one would you do?

        But, again, that is not the point.

        QUOTE: "...please do not prejudice."

        I'm not, this is how many on the site describe themselves. It is not a judgment. It is an observation.

        QUOTE: "You are brave. Or foolish. Maybe a little of both? ;-) ... better you decide it."

        Some things people should decide for themselves. ;-)
        • Jul 10 2011: "So, now, you say, "I believe in the Koran," and some people might ask, "How can you believe in such nonsense - it is the work of Satan?"

          And to you the question is meaningless (and probably offensive.)"
          no this is a normal question in Islam and always discussed and is open to be asked.
          there is no banned question in Islam.
          you can ask any question.
          also about this question please read my comments here:
          http://www.ted.com/conversations/815/the_end_of_the_world.html
          and please ask any question.
          its not offensive at all. I become happy to some one ask this me.
          there is a Persian poem:
          who has clear account why should fear being asked?

          "I am talking about "belief." Not the Koran or the Bible."
          OK. ask anything.

          "which one would you do?"
          according to my past research I accept Koran. (please note this is not blindly but has years of research in background)

          "It is not a judgment. It is an observation."
          agree but this is not 100%.

          there is a Persian poem.
          who is bitten by snake fears from every black and white rope.

          "Some things people should decide for themselves. ;-) "
          so I ask the same question from you.
          my reply is:
          my evils are more than my goods.
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        Jul 10 2011: QUOTE: ""Imagine you were born, say, 7000 years ago. How would you find your true heart's desire then?"

        this is my rule:
        I hear all voices and select best.

        if at 7000 years ago some one told me there is a Hell after death I asked him explain and show me some proof.
        if no one said me such thing I did not notice this and did my regular life.
        as this is an unreal condition this is hard to reply. but please note heart has two aspect: one part of heart ask you do good deeds and one part ask you do evil deeds. (not religious deeds) for example what you heart says about steal at 7000 years ago? (there is no police no law no religion no book,...)"

        You are violating the law of my thought experiment. You are carrying with you the understanding you have now and assuming you would be able to know it "then." This is a wrong assumption.

        You are just answering the question if I lived then and know what I know now, this is what I would do (more or less.)

        To quote Hu Jintao: "Emancipate your mind."

        Just imagine you live 7000 years ago. You know nothing of heaven or hell or God or Satan.

        How would you fulfill your heart's desire?

        (And just pretend that these ideas about a "good heart" and an "evil heart" are not true.)

        -------------------------

        QUOTE: "lets do not Imagine unreal problems ..."

        The assumption is what follows are "real problems."

        Can you see they are only "real" if you believe in them. And even then, not everyone does. And that you believe them does not make them a universal problem.


        1- we are human
        2- we have wisdom
        3- we have free will to accept God/Hell/Koran/after death or not accept
        4- some things called prophets (at least Koran) exist today (as a message and warning before death about after death) that can not be neglected

        now what we should do?

        Many Christians say if you believe in the Koran and do not believe in Jesus (exclusively,) you are going to go to hell.

        Now what should we do?

        And they said it first.

        Now what should we do?
        • Jul 10 2011: "You are violating the law of my thought experiment. You are carrying with you the understanding you have now and assuming you would be able to know it "then." This is a wrong assumption."
          please read my reply again. my reply was:
          1- if some one warned me I heard him
          2- if no warn I did my regular life
          this is not based on what I know today
          I said: IF X IF Y
          also this is really hard to reply. as our mind has shaped and any reply is influenced with our current knowledge.

          "You are just answering the question if I lived then and know what I know now, this is what I would do (more or less.)"
          I not said if I new what I now know. I said if some thing like a prophet warned me.

          Just imagine you live 7000 years ago. You know nothing of heaven or hell or God or Satan."
          in this case I has no belief about after death. and perhaps I was influenced by superstition of people and perhaps I was praying a deity. fossils and findings show human always had beliefs in after death life even million years ago.

          I think absolutely non-believer human not exist. even believing in Big Bang (with nearly no knowledge about it and its past) as a kind of creator is kind pf belief system.

          according your scenario my reply is:
          two possibility: I was a believer (praying a statue) or non believer (but believing in material is all is made world) and it depends on the culture I grew up in it.

          "Can you see they are only "real" if you believe in them."
          no. by real I mean conditions and facts exist in our current time and our life.

          I can not believe in Koran but real is that Koran exist is and is available. I can not reject existence of Koran and its wonders.
          I can not reject this fact that science has no answer to this:
          http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
          this is real. real is not what we believe.
          if I believe you are not human you are not really human?

          "And that you believe them does not make them a universal problem."
          agree. they are problem for my belief.
        • Jul 10 2011: "Now what should we do?"
          I can not decide for you what to do.
          each human himself has enough wisdom to decide.
          If i want to reply. i say:
          I hear both well and then decide according to my wisdom.
          I believe both.
          I consider possibility that bible is truth but church is doing business and doing marketing to keep its customers paying tax for buying expensive cloths and so on.
          I did check and research bible to find if bible really said what church claims or not.

          "Many Christians say if you believe in the Koran and do not believe in Jesus (exclusively,) you are going to go to hell."
          I agree this.
          I believe both Koran and Jesus (PBUH) and I do not disbelieve Jesus (PBUH).
          please watch this:
          http://www.watchislam.com/videos/video.php?vid=3-Yusuf
          some things church says is not even said one time in Bible.
          for example trinity.
          can you find word trinity in Bible?
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        Jul 10 2011: Okay, it's a Sunday afternoon (here in China) and we've been discussing things for a few hours.

        Here's my impression (not that you asked for it but it is an open forum:)

        1) You have no real interest in "proving the Koran" you already believe that it is true and has been proven.

        2) You have no real interest in considering that your faith is, in any way, misguided.

        3) You believe that people who do not accept your point of view are wrong.

        4) You believe you can "change people's minds" (if they would only open their eyes and hearts) - or maybe, more accurately, you secretly believe you might find a true seeker and guide them to the truth.

        5) You believe you are honouring God by asserting your faith.

        6) You believe in heaven and hell and that Islam is the "path" to the former and the path away from the latter.

        Is that a, more or less, accurate impression of the situation?
        • Jul 10 2011: 1) yes I already believed Koran but as I said I am open to discuss about disproving Koran.
          your discuss is different but most discuss here is about proving Koran. my main interest is proving Koran because I believe the most valid word of God TODAY is Koran.

          2) I consider but if I see enough proof and evidence. I have not seen yet. as I said before one reason of me being on ted is to find if some one can prove I am misguided.

          3) perhaps my points of view have problems but I believe people who not accept Koran are wrong. but they are two type: some are interested to know Koran (seekers) some not interested.

          4) I do not believe this. because I think I have not such ability and until today I could not do this and this is not my goal. I only want to spread what i know and I do not care if people change or not. I believe I can spread some true information about Koran and God. while I have errors.

          5) yes but by spreading Koran and clearing wrong information about Koran. not by asserting my faith.

          6) yes.

          again i say I am open to questions and challenges about my beliefs.
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        Jul 10 2011: QUOTE: "... I am open to discuss about disproving Koran."

        Forgive me for being so blunt but I do not believe you. You say you are open to a discussion that might "disprove" the Koran and, yet, you counter every rational argument with an assertion that is belief-based.

        Try to understand that you are asserting you believe in book that was dictated to an illiterate man by Allah Himself.

        Unless you are willing to abandon your beliefs [and you're not], no one will be able to "prove" the Koran is anything you do not believe it to be. (Do you get that?)

        My advice: Give up the facade of objectivity and openly express your belief.

        QUOTE: "...one reason of me being on ted is to find if some one can prove I am misguided."

        I can not speak for the founders of TED but I suggest it is not the mandate of TED, or the responsibility of people who frequent TED, to prove you are misguided. (And, even if some us "volunteered" to take a shot - it is evident you have no desire to change.)

        QUOTE: "...I believe people who not accept Koran are wrong. but they are two type: some are interested to know Koran (seekers) some not interested."

        So basically you're fishing for converts? How is that working out?

        QUOTE: "...I can spread some true information about Koran and God."

        Again, how is that working out for you?

        QUOTE: "...[You believe you are honouring God by asserting your faith.] yes but by spreading Koran and clearing wrong information about Koran. not by asserting my faith.

        "Asserting you faith" is an idiom, it means asserting your faith in __________.... [in this case, the Koran] So by sharing your belief in, and understanding of, the Koran, you are honouring Allah.

        Here's my advice: Be open and direct.

        Also I recommend you refrain from telling people they are flies that leave the flowers to sit on smelly things. I doubt you will get the reaction you are looking for.

        QUOTE: "again i say I am open to questions and challenges about my beliefs."

        Again, I do not believe you.
        • Jul 10 2011: "Forgive me for being so blunt but I do not believe you. "
          this topic and other topics like
          http://www.ted.com/conversations/2328/is_koran_scientifically_a_mira.html
          are full of this.
          but please not can you show me a certain proof in them disproving Koran?
          if I not accept is not for my dogma it is that they are not really proof. they are only false claims that when arguing and discuss people escape. they only leave tons of comments and some discuss and then escape. you call this proof?
          people start copying a log list or errors of Koran blindly from links that themselves do not know what are they saying. you mean I should accept them all? when they can not show enough proof.

          "Try to understand that you are asserting you believe in book that was dictated to an illiterate man by Allah Himself."
          agree. what is problem?

          "(Do you get that?)" no. I did not understand that sentence. (language)

          "My advise: Give up the facade of objectivity and openly express your belief."
          I an clear. but when talking with who does not believe in Koran I temporarily should assume Koran is not false. this is required in talk. unless they say I do not know scientific method.
          hypothesis>test>answer

          "it is evident you have no desire to change.)"
          already ted changed me. especially about evolution.

          "So basically you're fishing for converts? How is that working out?"
          I said before I am not convertor and I have no converted any one. I do not care if people convert or not. also God does not care:
          http://tanzil.net/#76:3
          http://tanzil.net/#2:256
          I said many times I only want to spread and talk Koran.
          I do not think ted is suitable place for fishing. better places exist. it is wasting time fishing on ted.
          also another question (I am not convertor):
          what is problem of converting? why you fear converting? do you fear also converting to atheism same?

          "Again, how is that working out for you?"
          I not seeking convert. today is age of information. people are not donkey.
        • Jul 10 2011: "your faith in"
          please note my faith in x is different of x
          I consider my personal errors in Koran and so I prefer to assert Koran itself instead of my faith in Koran.


          "Here's my advice: Be open and direct."
          this is direct: I want to spread Koran and explain people their wrong thinks about Koran and God and I do not care who changed and who not change. but if some one ask me questions I feel responsibility to answer him.
          also other people on ted advices me I respect the scientific method and first I consider my claims as hypothesis and then try to check them without having any belief.
          I do not know which advice I should follow in ted. I am confused. in any way I am accused.

          "people they are flies that leave the flowers to sit on smelly things. "
          sorry I said this about special people not all. because they leave whole the Koran and only insist in some evil behaviors of Muslims or insist on some APPARENTLY errors of Koran without reading even one page of Koran. what you call them? at first look they seem professionals in Koran but soon it is found they only copy blindly from anti-Koran links with no think.

          "Again, I do not believe you. "
          I do not want to you believe me. if you do so you are not human. only believe yourself wisdom.
          but I ask you do not escape and hear me and then yourself think.
          http://tanzil.net/#74:49
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 10 2011: do you want to hypnotize me?

          instead of assertion your beliefs about me. please show me one RATIONAL argument I have countered.
          I have both accepted and countered arguments here.
          can you show some examples that are really rational?


          "TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE ASSERTING YOU BELIEVE IN BOOK THAT WAS DICTATED TO AN ILLITERATE MAN BY ALLAH HIMSELF."
          already understand and agree. do you think I am wrong? OK why you not prove?

          I do not understand last paragraph.
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        Jul 10 2011: QUOTE: "Try to understand that you are asserting you believe in a book that was dictated to an illiterate man by Allah Himself. ... agree. what is problem?"

        There is no problem - for you.

        But - think about this - you initiate a discussion "to prove" (or disprove) something that is predicated on an assertion that many of your audience categorically rejects.

        That is, on a forum where (I suspect) the majority of the people you are addressing do not believe in Allah, you assert the Koran is true because it was dictated by Allah. And then you ask them to "disprove your assertion."

        This has nothing to do with whether your beliefs are true or not but, surely you can see that asking a group of people who do not believe in Allah to prove to you that the Koran is not true is futile.

        No matter what they say, you will not believe them.

        Do you see that?


        QUOTE: "it is evident you have no desire to change.)"
        already ted changed me. especially about evolution.

        Let me clarify: It is evident you have no desire to change your beliefs regarding Islam and the Koran.

        QUOTE: "I said before I am not convertor and I have no converted any one. I do not care if people convert or not."

        So you are not interested in the people who "are interested to know Koran (seekers)?"

        QUOTE: "I said many times I only want to spread and talk Koran."

        My impression is you do not want to talk about the Koran - you want people to agree with your views about the Koran. (That's my impression.)

        QUOTE: what is problem of converting? why you fear converting? do you fear also converting to atheism same?

        What do you think?
        • Jul 10 2011: "that many of your audience categorically rejects."
          not important. why I should talk so that people like it? I hate such behavior.
          I am clear and I do not care people hate or love me.
          I do not need any fan.

          I am not interested where people are not interested to hear me. I am considering leaving TED.

          "asking a group of people who do not believe in Allah to prove to you that the Koran is not true is futile."
          agree. and I did not ask them. any one is free to select a topic and participate it.
          please do not decide about others.
          if I know it is futile I do not waste time and leave ted.


          "No matter what they say, you will not believe them."
          again and again please do not prejudice me. I learned and believed many things from people on ted.

          "Let me clarify: It is evident you have no desire to change your beliefs regarding Islam and the Koran."
          if some one show enough proof I change.
          why you not consider that Koran is truth?
          you have a assumption and you assert it: I should accept people without notice to what I say. you have a assume that I am wrong and you accuse me why I not accept people and you assume I am irrational. please consider the possibility that Koran is true and people are wrong. why you think always the majority is true?
          did you know near 50 years ago a huge number of scientists said cigar is good for health?
          please if not disprove of Koran happens it not mean I have dogma. if you proved and I did not accept it is dogma. but you did not prove anything still. you are only asserting your beliefs with no logical argument. you think you are right before argument.

          "So you are not interested in the people who "are interested to know Koran (seekers)?""
          If some one is interested I reply and talk him. but I do not care who change or not.

          "My impression is you do not want to talk about the Koran - you want people to agree with your views about the Koran. (That's my impression.)"
          Indeed I have errors. better to people not follow me. and directly use source (Koran)
        • Jul 10 2011: "What do you think? "
          i think media like TV by bin ladan and so on has made a very dark Image of Islam in your mind and you fear nearing Islam.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia
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        Jul 10 2011: QUOTE: "...please show me one RATIONAL argument I have countered."

        I do not believe you have countered a single rational argument (although I have not read the whole thread)

        Can you provide an example?
        • Jul 10 2011: please be clear.
          I do not understand what you mean.
          I feel contradictions in your sayings.

          example for what?
          you said:
          "YOU COUNTER EVERY RATIONAL ARGUMENT WITH AN ASSERTION THAT IS BELIEF-BASED."
          and I asked you show one example of those every.

          sorry English is not my language and some times I not understand you.
          perhaps I am wrong
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        Jul 10 2011: QUOTE: "I want to spread Koran and explain people their wrong thinks about Koran and God and I do not care who changed and who not change.

        You have heard the expressions: "Actions speak louder than word" and "Know thyself."

        Well your actions would indicate that you do care if people are changed or not. Perhaps you want them to experience the joy you feel at having found something you believe in. Perhaps you want to wipe away some misconceptions people have about the Koran and allow them to see it the way you see and experience it. Fine. Share your experience. That belongs to you.

        People can see that and appreciate it ... even if they never accept the Koran (and face it, most will not.)


        QUOTE: "...other people on ted advices me I respect the scientific method and first I consider my claims as hypothesis and then try to check them without having any belief."

        It's not bad advice. You seem to be challenging people to "prove" the Koran is not true. But it is you who is asserting that it is true, not them. Can you prove (within the scientific meaning of the term) that Allah dictated the Koran to Mohammad? Of course, you cannot.

        QUOTE: I do not know which advice I should follow in ted. I am confused. in any way I am accused.

        I suspect you are "accused" because you have issued a contrived challenge and then assume the rules of the challenge apply to us but not to you. You cannot "prove" the Koran is true. You cannot prove Allah exists. And then you challenge us to prove it is not true and that he doesn't exist.

        It is not a challenge we even invited (I don't think) - and yet you "accuse" us of not "disproving" your assertions. It's as if you see our inability to disprove your assertions as somehow validating them.

        They cannot be proven. They cannot be disproven.

        Many of us simply see them as nonsense.
        • Jul 10 2011: "You have heard the expressions: "Actions speak louder than word" and "Know thyself.""
          yes. prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has such saying:
          "Invite people without your tongue"

          "Well your actions would indicate that you do care if people are changed or not."
          OK agree.

          "Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps"
          yes Perhaps.

          Perhaps you seek some one to fill your time instead of going cinema.

          "Can you prove (within the scientific meaning of the term) that Allah dictated the Koran to Mohammad? Of course, you cannot."
          yes I can if you be patient and interested enough.
          how much you are ready to pay for this? (not money, time)

          "You cannot "prove" the Koran is true."
          Koran has thousands of wonders. ask some of them from an Arab friend.
          also if no one can prove an error in Koran this is part of prove.
          my prove (on of them) is simple:
          Koran is from 1400 years ago and if was from human should have many errors today.

          "You cannot prove Allah exists. "
          I can. for example look this:
          http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
          this is not all

          "And then you challenge us to prove it is not and that he doesn't."
          when I wanted this? I am talking about Koran.
          if Koran has no error from 1400 years ago this has not any meaning?
          also this is a challenge for who disbelieve existence of God.

          "It's as if you see our inability to disprove your assertions as somehow validating them."
          yes. I respect beliefs of people and I not want people feel embarrassment against their friends. I want to disprove them respectfully and peacefully.

          "They cannot be proven. They cannot be disproven."
          They can be proven. They cannot be disproven.
          but each people comes and throw me some doubts and false information from links and then escape. they even do not read my replies and links.

          "Many of us simply see them as nonsense. "
          I hope one day "Many of us" feel risk of Hell after death and then not see them nonsense.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
        • Jul 10 2011: ''You cannot prove Allah exists.''

          Islamic Philosophy has proven this with proofs that the Atheists of the West are too scared to come near to....I mean, Why are Avicenna's books not studied in Western universities? Why do Atheists like Richard Dawkins never even mention the proofs of Islamic philosophy?...please refute our proofs before you say a word..please stand against Avicenna..Please stand against Mulla Sadra....Allah is God...God exists.. You are wasting your life and what is coming after it if you don't believe in God... And maybe that is why SR is inviting you- Maybe not in the best way-to Islam....because inviting to the infinitely good is not to be questioned.. Questioning it does not make sense..Islam is the submission to Allah, God...the one who created you from nothing...the one who blessed you with everything you have..The one to whom we belong and the one to whom we will all return....SR invites you to him....to eternal happiness....to the true life...

          ''What is the life of this world but amusement and play? but verily the Home in the Hereafter,- that is life indeed, if they but knew.''

          29:64

          ''And He giveth you of all ye ask of Him, and if ye would count the bounty of Allah ye cannot reckon it. Lo! man is verily a wrong-doer, an ingrate.''

          14:34.

          Maybe it is SR's English, maybe it is the complete misunderstanding between all of us...maybe it is some people lying, maybe it is that we are all not open-minded...Maybe it is that this conversation was wrong in the first place..here at this place..Maybe things like this shouldn't be argued in this way on the internet....Maybe it is that some of us are completely blind...Maybe some of us just have to wait and see..

          ''O mankind ! what has beguiled you from your Lord, the Gracious one,''

          82:6

          ''And when We bestow favor on man, he turns aside and behaves proudly, and when evil afflicts him, he is despairing.''

          17:83


          ''That to thy Lord is the final Goal''

          53:42


          Peace..
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        Jul 10 2011: QUOTE: ""YOU COUNTER EVERY RATIONAL ARGUMENT WITH AN ASSERTION THAT IS BELIEF-BASED." ...and I asked you show one example of those every.

        "sorry English is not my language and some times I not understand you.
        perhaps I am wrong"

        You're doing a pretty good job considering English is not your mother-tongue. I think I have answered your question in subsequent posts but basically what it means is: It is rational to assert you cannot prove that the Koran or the Bible or the Upanishads are true. But we could prove they are not true (for example if they contained errors or false information.)

        That is "rational."

        Now, to use the Bible, as an example, many people have found lots of errors in it and many other people (we call them Christians) reject the rational findings and assert the Bible is inerrant - without error.

        This is a belief-based rejection of a rational argument.

        The same could be said for the Koran. Scholars might find errors in the Koran but "true believers" simply assert that any errors are errors of perception or interpretation (which is the same thing the Christians say.)

        True Muslims see the perfection in the Koran. Infidels do not.

        So if someone sees an error, they must not be a true Muslim.

        This is a belief-based response.

        It is quite convincing in many respects but - outside of the faith - it is not considered very robust.

        [I am simplifying in the hope you will understand my English.]
        • Jul 10 2011: "and I asked you show one example of those every."
          this is what you said and I do not what you mean by every... . please forgive me.

          "It is rational to assert you cannot prove that the Koran or the Bible or the Upanishads are true. But we could prove they are not true (for example if they contained errors or false information.)"
          it is not rational. because you do not know our proofs for Koran.
          rational is to do not say some thing certain when you do not know.
          today bible has errors but not Koran.
          when you could prove one error in Koran then it is rational.
          about Bible I agree you. but not Koran.

          "The same could be said for the Koran."
          why?! if i see a stupid Canadian then I can conclude all Canadians are stupid?
          you do not know Koran.
          this is false logic.

          ""true believers" simply assert that any errors are errors of perception or interpretation"
          so what is the solution?
          this means Koran is not truth?
          you have enough wisdom to first hear their reply then conclude.
          this logic is called dogma. (conclude before hearing)

          "True Muslims see the perfection in the Koran. Infidels do not."
          this is false.
          do you know what is definition of Infidels in islam?
          do you think any non-muslim is Infidels?
          did you know some muslims are Infidels?

          "So if someone sees an error, they must not be a true Muslim."
          he is not blind follower of his father. seeing error is sign of think and research.

          "This is a belief-based response."
          yes. but I do not want to give you such response. this is your belief that I give such response.
          any error can be discussed and proved or disproved.

          "It is quite convincing in many respects but - outside of the faith - it is not considered very robust."
          agree. Koran says:
          http://tanzil.net/#53:23
          a Muslim should not follow father blindly.

          I understand your English. only few cases I not understand that I say you.
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        Jul 10 2011: These are belief-based responses:

        Can you prove (within the scientific meaning of the term) that Allah dictated the Koran to Mohammad?

        "yes I can..."

        No, you cannot. You believe you can.

        "how much you are ready to pay for this? (not money, time)"

        It's a good question but I have little to no interest in you "proving" something you believe to be true. Its enough that you believe it. I do not need proof. My interest in this conversation is to engage with another human.

        "You cannot "prove" the Koran is true."
        Koran has thousands of wonders. ask some of them from an Arab friend.
        also if no one can prove an error in Koran this is part of prove.
        my prove (on of them) is simple:
        Koran is from 1400 years ago and if was from human should have many errors today.

        It does have many errors. Many have been pointed out to you. You counter there are no errors in the Arabic version. (Which is nonsense.)

        A belief-based response.

        "You cannot prove Allah exists. "
        I can.

        YOU can prove Allah exists!? My you must be truly great.

        Or did you mean you could direct me to something that you believe proves Allah exists?


        "They cannot be proven. They cannot be disproven."
        They can be proven. They cannot be disproven.

        This is a belief-based response.

        I hope one day "Many of us" feel risk of Hell after death and then not see them nonsense.

        Now is this your true charcater showing through? We must believe what you believe or we will go to hell?

        And is that how you "want to disprove them [us] respectfully and peacefully." Threaten them [us] with hell?

        Sadly, you are a bit late. The Christians got that one first - so according to them and their God - it is you who will be going to hell. For all of eternity. No coffee breaks.

        Oh, and their book is older than yours and it's inerrant.

        That too is a belief-based response.

        (One I do not believe, by the way.)
        • Jul 11 2011: "No, you cannot. You believe you can."
          These are belief-based responses. because you still have not heard my response.

          "I have little to no interest in you "proving" something you believe to be true. Its enough that you believe it. I do not need proof. My interest in this conversation is to engage with another human."
          proving without using my beliefs needs a serious man with interest and time. God and religion and truth are not cheap to be a hobby. thanks for your honesty.
          I prefer to spend my time with serous people. it needs deep engaging in history and historical evidences and proofs and is not possible in short time.
          if one day you decided you need a proof I am ready ( if I was alive and God wanted)

          "It does have many errors. Many have been pointed out to you."
          yes. but none had enough proof. internet is full of such apparently errors and they only copy while have not read Koran.

          "This is a belief-based response."
          I asked you ask an arab friend (not Muslim friend) to explain you wonders of Koran in literature and poem and musical and so on. no arab poet could challenge Koran in history. this is belief-based response?!!!

          "Now is this your true charcater showing through? We must believe what you believe or we will go to hell?"
          not you a wise human considers this risk independent of religion:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

          "Threaten them [us] with hell?"
          when I said this? please do not misquote me. I have not such power.
        • Jul 11 2011: "Sadly, you are a bit late. The Christians got that one first - so according to them and their God - it is you who will be going to hell. For all of eternity. No coffee breaks."
          OK. so wait and see true result after death.
          I heard a story: (I do not know true or false)
          church was selling Heaven lands to people.
          one day some came to church and asked:
          how much is price of Hell?
          church: what? it has no customer you are crazy to buy it. it is free.
          the man signed the contract of Hell and bought it and said people:
          do not worry no need to buy Heaven because Hell is mine and I do not let any one enter it so you all will go to Heaven.

          "Oh, and their book is older than yours and it's inerrant.

          That too is a belief-based response.

          (One I do not believe, by the way.)"
          none of them prove God and Hell and Heaven not exist.
          perhaps all we (Muslims) and Christians are lying but still this not mean Hell not exist.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
          this is a rational and logical argument like Insurance.
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        Jul 10 2011: J Ali,

        Quoting scripture does not "prove" Allah exists. I have read that apples exist. But if I have not eaten one they are just a possibility - a dream to me.

        Do not quote scripture to me unless you know of what it speaks and could write the scripture in the sands with the tears of your own heart.

        Peace.
        • Jul 10 2011: ''Quoting scripture does not "prove" Allah exists.''

          Please show me where I said that they prove Allah? I talked about proof of Allah's existence in the first paragraph.... You and all the Atheists of the west will never read and study the philosophy of Islam...the books of our philosophers...the books of Avicenna, Ibn Rushd, Mulla Sadr and so forth...God is not like an apple...you must be dead serious about God..which means you read everything great great philosophers have said....Maybe you are just not interested..

          ''Do not quote scripture to me unless you know of what it speaks''

          I quoted the verses to tell you what I was feeling... I did not say to you that it proves itself..just what I was feeling..If you want proof that God, Allah, exists then read the books of our philosophers and scholars (especially since you love to read)..If you want proof the Koran is from God, then this is not the right place... I feel that all of you are ignorant of what our scholars say...of what the Quran says...of what Islam says.... And maybe you have a right.... Maybe Bin Laden and his group destroyed our image..Maybe we didn't stand roughly in Bin Laden's face as the Quran and the Prophet orders us to....maybe the focus is on them and not on the Golden Age of Islamic science and philosophy.. and not on the knowledge we have... That is why I feel sad.. We are too misunderstood....

          Peace...
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  • Comment deleted

    • Jul 9 2011: its your God also.
      he created human to God be known. but Judgement is necessary because God is Just and anyone doing any good or evil should see the result. this is a law of God:
      http://tanzil.net/#99:7
      why you think God created people just to Judge them?!
      animals do not have Judgement because they have not Wisdom and free will.
      Heaven and Hell is because of wisdom.
      but health is not value for God. for God obeying God and knowing God is value.
      God compensate health problems with rewards at judgement day.
      "so on the judgment day he will leave you alone"
      why leave alone?

      "you didnt answer any of my guestions"
      what are exactly your questions? I think I have replied all your questions.
      ", you are just paraphrasing koran "
      we do not let ourselves to interpret Koran as our personal opinions. we interpret according to sayings of prophet and Fourteen Infallible.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles

      "You even dont understand my guestions"
      sorry please ask questions clear to get answers.

      just hidding behind one old book. "
      we use our knowledge and wisdom and science first to test Koran then we accepted it. not blindly following Koran.

      "When you dont have some real answer "
      I do not understand what question you mean.

      "you just say, god say so "
      sorry. this is your false think. there is tons of proofs before sayings this.

      "And the only think you are doing is proving koran with koran"
      sorry if you see the title of this topic this is not what you say. this is proving Koran with not finding any contradiction or error in it. and not conflict with science. you could not prove any error in Koran and then misquote me (proving Koran with Koran). this is your think. but we do not prove Koran with Koran. first prove one error in Koran then say this.

      "I wish you great imaginary life my human fellow."
      life with no God and creator is Imaginary.

      what is your reply to this:?
      http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
      Imaginary reply!
  • Jul 7 2011: Christophe Cop,
    where are you?
    why not participate this topic?
    this post was originally started for your suggest.

    you say:
    "I do of course imply that any new information can change my opinion."
    OK. Koran is a new Information.
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      • Jul 7 2011: your new conversation is nice.
        I do not know participate it or not.
        I feel people on TED are not interested to here me. so I am considering leaving TED. (if this is right)
        about Christophe perhaps you are right. other possibility can be that no one can disprove Koran or find any contradiction in Koran (with proof, not claims)

        I agree religion is old argument. but I disagree Islam is old argument. perhaps you are comparing with Christianity and church.

        "Our (my) viewpoint is that you are incapable of learning"
        actually I learned many things from TED and I am studying every day. specially I changed my view about Evolution by learning from TED.

        if some one show me enough proof I learn. but I can not accept claims without enough proof.

        "You simply bend or ignore the information put in front of you to suit your current beliefs. "
        please say a sample what is front of me that I have ignored? (and had enough proof)

        "right-back-at-ya"
        what means?

        "How is that new information?"
        I mean new for a person. not new in history. if some one had not considered Koran serious and deep it is new for him.

        "babies take more then 1 minute"
        sorry please explain your points about baby. I did not understand.

        also please note atheism and materialism are older than religion.
        I can show you talk between believers and atheists and materialists from time of Adam to today. at time of any prophet. Noah was firs prophet who introduced religion to humans and after 1000 years of try only 7 people accepted him.
        for example this is a talk between atheists and Muslims near 1000 years ago:
        http://www.al-islam.org/mufaddal/
        its a short book and I recommend you read it. because its not from any human and its sayings are originally from God and revealed to Imam Sadiq (PBUH)
  • Comment deleted

    • Jul 3 2011: sorry Ed,
      I could not understand your English.
      what you want to say?
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 3 2011: Ed,

          Asalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Baraktuh- May Peace, Mercy and Blessings of Allah be upon you...

          I want you to listen to the Quran in Arabic.....this proves nothing.....I would just like you to listen to it... The Quran which inspired and guided Rabia Al Basri in every walk of her life......

          here is a link of Sheikh Muhammed Siddiq Al Minshawi reciting the Quran.....listen to it fully...if you want.

          http://shiavoice.com/play-k3s28.html

          Here is another link

          http://www.althkr.com/951.html
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    Jul 1 2011: If the Koran is from Allah have it need to be proved correct?
    • Jul 2 2011: the problem is that many people do not believe in God!
      Imam Sajjad said in:
      http://www.al-islam.org/sahifa

      "My God!
      When you was lost to be found now?"
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        E G

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        Jul 2 2011: just that you didn't answer to my question .........
        • Jul 2 2011: sorry I did not understand you first time.
          "If the Koran is from Allah have it need to be proved correct?"

          Allah has absolute knowledge so his book should not have any error.
          this is first step.
          if proved it shows this book at least is not from human
          the next step is determining from who is this book.
          no one unless Allah claimed Koran is from him
          and also there is no important candidate competing God in writing Koran.
  • Jul 1 2011: continued,

    I hope people who are searching for the truth, can understand what I have said. If you want to ask about the Quran then you are very welcome. If you want to ask about our beliefs then you are also very welcome. But if you want to read translations which may be very vague sometimes, if you want to read translations of verses that can only be understood through Arabic, the language of the Quran, and if you then want to start arguing on them, You can do that . But it is very wrong....

    Whoever thinks that these arguments are hate-arguments then he is wrong.... I don't hate anyone, nor does anyone - I think- on this thread..... We want understanding between us....we want dialogue.....We want to destroy Bin Laden's false ideas just as much as you want to.... And more than 1 billion Muslims in the world have the same ideas.... We want co-existence....

    ''.....surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.''

    2:190

    ''....surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.''

    2:222

    ''...and Allah does not love the unjust.''

    3:140

    ''...and Allah loves the patient.''

    3:146

    ''Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust.''

    3:159

    ''...Lo! Allah loveth the equitable.''

    5:142

    ''.......and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.''

    5:64

    ''....surely Allah does not love the treacherous.''

    8:58

    ''And do not turn your face away from people in contempt, nor go about in the land exulting overmuch; surely Allah does not love any self-conceited boaster''

    31:18

    ''And the slaves of the Beneficent Allah are they who walk on the earth in humbleness, and when the ignorant address them, they say: Peace''
    25:63

    Peace.
  • Jul 1 2011: I have been saying a lot in these threads that one must not listen to what the enemies of Islam have to say about it...and this has been shown to be true....What people like Elam have done is that they have blatantly copied from people such as Craig Winn, who is known to be a liar by us Muslims, they have changed the words of the verses, they have cut off important parts of the verses, they have cited inauthentic sources and they have blatantly lied... How does one expect me or SR to reply to so many lies in one thread..?

    But I must admit that people like Richard did not lie, they gave honest translations of the Quran,they didn't just lie. For that I give them many thanks and I applaud their honesty... The problem with people of this group is what In have constantly said about not understanding Arabic and what it does to your understanding of the Quran....I have written a lot about this so you may read my comments.... I fully understand why people who don't understand Arabic would say that this or that verses is false...and I have tried, frustratingly, to explain to them where they went false. I then decided I should just stop as this is just a waste of valuable time and no one is understanding anything... I encourage everyone to read translations of the Quran, but to start basing arguments on translations of the Quran is absolutely wrong.. Knowing that the Quran is the Arabic miracle, I know very well why that is wrong....

    I, as a Muslim, love all humans....I may dislike their ideas....The Quran tells us to be kind to non-Muslims if they do not fight us or drive us out of our homes

    '' Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.''

    60:8

    Truly, we love being just. And we come in peace and I hope we can dialogue more and more, but only honestly.

    Contd Above.
    • Comment deleted

      • Jul 1 2011: ''A man whose primary purpose was to enjoy sex with oldies, young and kiddies, doesn't sound a prophet of God.''

        Yes that is true.... But it wasn't the Prophet Muhammed ( btw I am not going to argue with you, so don't bother giving me links or anything else)

        ''J Ali, even if you threaten to kill me, i would still love you.''

        Me too.. But I would definitely defend myself.
      • Jul 1 2011: Neither do I...But stressing the point of being kind and just to others is very important, though it may be obvious....things which are morally obvious are not being done in this world ...look at the world today...look at African children....Look at poor people...look at the crimes being committed..

        ''And continue to remind, for surely the reminder profits the believers.''

        51:55
      • Jul 1 2011: Iqbal, what Muslims understand their religion to be is enjoining good in this world, and forbidding evil....this act is obvious to every human being, Religion is just a name... Religion is not something separate from logic, truth and morality, to us.... Suicide bombers are not even human, never mind being Muslims. We must stand together, as Muslims, as Christians, as Jews, as Buddhists, as Hindus and as humans, we must stand against terrorism and terrorists.

        ''I have only been sent to perfect good manners''

        -Prophet Muhammed (Peace be Upon Him)...

        I find all religions to have beauty and humanity in them....
      • Jul 2 2011: Dear Iqbal,
        I many times explained about marriages of prophet.
        only one wife of prophet was young
        prophet only had one wife until his first wife died and then prophet was old man.
        then other marriages of prophet was by order of God and each case had different reason mostly political and educational.
        Arab tribes became united when a marriage happen between them.
        also for example Muslims did not respect captured non-Muslims and did not considered them as human and did not hear to prophet to respect them and prophet married to a captured woman to Muslims learn and respect them as humans.
        each case has its own story.
        please do not prejudice based on few thing you hear. Research, Research, Research,
        "J Ali, even if you threaten to kill me, i would still love you. "
        Islam never starts any war. but who start war against Islam will get a sever reply.
        not any non-Muslim is infidel

        please do not consider any one who do a behavior in the name of Islam (like suicide bombing) equal to Islam.

        many of Muslims are infidel
  • Jul 1 2011: SR - This is probably my final comment I have a lot more I would like to say, there are several aspects to this discussion I have not yet touched on, but I have other things to do so I will not likely be back. Thank you for the info and links that you have given me, they will help me understand the Islamic perspective and situation I'm sure. I can see that you mean well, are doing good as you know it and your heart is in the right place. Good luck in your future endeavors. If you think about it, we really do create our own reality, such is our influence on ourselves.

    I suppose you will be glad I am not posting anymore. I want to but won't. Anyway, enjoy life, it's short. If there is any reality for us after death, I'm sure the time we spend living this life is very important. If like some believe (and have every right to) there is no reality for us after death then we might as well live the best life we can anyway, which is to say, strive to be fulfilled and do good.

    You are my brother, my fellow human whom I respect and wish the best for. Until we meet again, good bye.
    • Jul 1 2011: Dear Elam.
      thanks for your nice and warm comment.
      I invite you Iran when you had time. my home is your home.
      if you had time please read my links specially www.al-islam.org its an ocean of valid Islamic knowledge.
      also please reconsider and research about God and after death.

      you are also my brother.
      have a nice life and a nice death!
      bye
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        Jul 1 2011: I think, too, that to continue to go back and forth with our respective opinions and beliefs at this point would be unfair to the topic itself. I share Elam's sentiments entirely when he says, "you are my fellow human" and respect your opinions and appreciate your civility and tenacity - this, after all, is a conversation, a debate, and you have made your points as have I and others. Job well done! I've learned a lot.

        Peace and love to you and your family.
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          Jul 1 2011: "To say it has any resemblance with the current version of Old Testament is a force fit at best!!"

          Ed Schulte please educate yourself about the Dead Sea Scrolls:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

          ""Biblical" manuscripts (copies of texts from the Hebrew Bible), ..comprise roughly 40% of the identified scrolls;"

          The Dead Sea Scrolls date to between 150 BCE and 70 CE. The point that Elam made was that they provide an independent confirmation of the Old Testament, which the Muslims claim was "corrupted".
      • Jul 1 2011: ''have a nice life and a nice death!''

        SR.Quote of the year.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 1 2011: ''let me ask you in another way. would a true honest Muslim believer share his meals among lepers, homeless, slum dwellers?''

          on behalf of S.R, Absolutely.....

          ''And feed with food the needy wretch, the orphan and the prisoner, for the love of Him,''

          ''(Saying): We feed you, for the sake of Allah only. We wish for no reward nor thanks from you;''

          76:8-9

          Ibn ‘Abbas said: “It happened that ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib (peace be upon him) hired himself one night to water some palm-trees in exchange for some barley. The following morning, he collected his barley and grinded a third of it out of which they made something to eat, called al-Khazirah. When it was cooked, a poor man came begging from them, and so they gave him the food they had prepared. They then prepared a third of the remaining barley and when it was cooked, an orphan came begging from them, and they gave him the food. They then went and prepared what was left of that barley, but when the food was cooked, a prisoner from among the idolaters came to them and they fed him that food and spent the rest of the day without eating anything. This verse was revealed about this incident”.

          ''No blame is there upon the blind nor any blame upon the lame nor any blame upon the sick nor on yourselves if ye eat from your houses, or the houses of your fathers, or the houses of your mothers, or the houses of your brothers, or the houses of your sisters, or the houses of your fathers' brothers, or the houses of your fathers' sisters, or the houses of your mothers' brothers, or the houses of your mothers' sisters, or (from that) whereof ye hold the keys, or (from the house) of a friend. No sin shall it be for you whether ye eat together or apart. But when ye enter houses, salute one another with a greeting from Allah, blessed and sweet. Thus Allah maketh clear His revelations for you, that haply ye may understand.''

          24:61
        • Jul 2 2011: Dear Iqbal,
          Fatima, the daughter or prophet said:
          "First neighbor then home"

          "would a true honest Muslim believer share his meals among lepers, homeless, slum dwellers?"
          yes sure.
          Islam literature is fill of this sayings:
          if you sleep full and a hungry sleep in your neighbor you are not Muslim
          and neighbor in Islam is until 40 homes from your home from any direction.

          also you are welcomed to my home.
    • Comment deleted

      • Jul 3 2011: I love all humans even non-believers.
        but non-believers who are seeking truth not who want to kill Muslims. like who are killing Muslims in Palestine or Pakistan or Bahrain or Iraq or Afghanistan or Lebanon or Egypt or Libya or ...

        if a non-Muslim not want to kill us we have no problem with him and invite him to rational talk.

        I think you do not know Iranians.
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    Jun 30 2011: Jesus and all the other prophets are not "business". It is what man (and by that I mean men - not women) have done with the message of these well-intentioned people whose message has always been the same: "Love one and other. Peace."

    Men (not women) created the books, the buildings, the rules, the punishments, the fear, the shame, the logic, the miracles, etc. That is the business of religion.

    I am saying to you (not Muhammad, not Jesus, et.al.) put down your holy books and connect to the human experience. Life is passing you by. It waits for no one.
    • Jun 30 2011: "Jesus and all the other prophets are not "business". "
      so what are them?
      you mean their non-business religion can not be found today at all?
      SEEKER IS FINDER
      I agree you but not about all.

      "It is what man (and by that I mean men - not women) have done with the message of these well-intentioned people"
      are you feminist? ;)

      "whose message has always been the same: "Love one and other. Peace."
      only this?! then?
      this short message not need a book.
      many other questions remain about God and religion.

      "Men (not women) created the books, "
      I am not professional about testimonials.
      but you mean Koran also is made by men? if yes can you prove it? no one still claimed is writer of Koran.

      "put down your holy books"
      why? life is passing with or without Koran. so I prefer spend my life with Koran. its better and less risky.

      "connect to the human experience."
      already I am connected. why you think it is impossible with having Koran. Koran encourages many allowed enjoys. I have no problem about experiences. but I do not know what church said you about human experiences.

      "Life is passing you by. It waits for no one."
      the main life is after death in Heaven. it is unlimited. so better to prepare for that life.
      this life is very short and finishes soon. 100 years is nothing against unlimited years.

      for anything after death you should pay.
      do you know what is currency of there? its good deeds.
      today is doing and no result. tomorrow is result and no doing.

      so better to save more currency for there.
      Life is passing you by. It waits for no one.
      collect more money for spending there before you die.
      http://tanzil.net/#23:99 -100
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        Jul 1 2011: "are you feminist? ;)"

        If I must be tagged, tag me a humanist.

        ME: "whose message has always been the same: "Love one and other. Peace."
        SR: only this?! then?
        this short message not need a book.
        many other questions remain about God and religion.

        When it comes to living life fully, two words make my book: peace and love.

        "for anything after death you should pay.
        do you know what is currency of there? its good deeds.
        today is doing and no result. tomorrow is result and no doing."

        "so better to save more currency for there.
        Life is passing you by. It waits for no one.
        collect more money for spending there before you die."

        These words are music to the business of Islam's ears. You are one of it's most doggedly loyal salesmen.

        It's a business. Your mind is the currency it demands for delivery of happiness that could be found without giving away your most precious gift (your mind) if only you would open your eyes to the world around you and engage in it's rich exchange.
    • Jun 30 2011: Jim - I agree with everything you say, except it is clear that if you read the Qur'an and you read the Bible (which the Qur'an claims to be based on), anyone can easily see that the message of Muhammad is not even close to the same as that of all the other prophets.
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        Jul 1 2011: I have been taken to school on this subject, Elam. I am learning that...
  • Jun 29 2011: I think the goal is not to convince people about atheism, but to try to understand why they believe. Just a reminder, almost all North Korea's think that North Korea is a great country while they are starving. Indoctrination is a powerful tool.

    In general,
    1st - I guess it is hard for people to reflect on their own reasoning process, so they seek prove which is not there but which satisfy their needs for prove.

    2nd - People seem to have a hard time judging on the right level. We are evolved to live in small groups, and evolved to include emotions in our judgement. That means that on a small level, you could use your emotions as a judgment tool ("That guy give me a weird feeling, I don't like him") but you should use reasoning on a large level. Sounds a bit strange to me that you feel the presence of God, the creator of the universe, or you got a feeling God is real. (or you feel threatened by the Islam for that matter, it's ridiculous to be afraid of millions of people you never met...)

    3rd - Science should not be worried about religion. Just go on to hypothesize, prove and disprove and find out the answers of reality. The truth will always hurt the believers, because they believe in a lie. Believers will always be around to feel threatened by the truth, and therefor try to disprove or undermine science. I doesn't matter, in the end, they all use telephones, computers, light bulbs, the internet, and all those other wonderful scientific inventions to express their concern, and they are welcome to as long as we have the right to ignore them.

    4th - As for the truth? Try not to believe the truth. I know the truth for what it is, a depressing world in which I'll die and that will be the end of that. My life will be, among 7 billion others, pretty small and useless and all my loved ones will be dirt in the end (except for the lucky few who will fossilize..) I am lucky to be a very cheerfull peson, but I am afraid that the truth is to much to handle for most...
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    Jun 29 2011: You finally convinced me S.R, I now believe in the Koran,...
    • thumb
      Jun 29 2011: Jimmy, SR has now taken to quoting verses in Arabic, he ducks and weaves like Muhammad Ali (who floated like a butterfly and stung like bee). But that verse reads "Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?"

      You are obviously trying to stave off the day of Judgement and the Hell Fire. Sorry Jimmy. SR is saying that will not work.

      SR why do you think that Jimmy does not truly believe? Is it because in your heart of hearts you believe the Quran is so unbelievable that no rational human being can believe it? Tell the truth SR.
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    Jun 29 2011: What this all comes down to is faith in the unknown. A belief that the Koran is the only word of god. Evidence to the contrary is powerless to the "chior". It's natural to believe in a vision of god that has been pumped into you since birth. That's how religions operate. They are businesses - just very different enterprises than what we typically think of when we think of business. You have bought the notion that the Koran is the word of god. You say those who don't believe that will find out when they die they were wrong. Like life is a big gamble. Choose your god and we'll see in the afterlife.

    The goodness that comes out of religious institutions is laudable. Religions do serve a purpose. I believe that some day far off in our human evolution we will not need to have a god to live our lives in the way our religions of today guide us to live them. There will be a day....
    • Jun 29 2011: Dear Jim,
      please explain more why you say religions are business?
      I agree many religions are business. specially church. and many Islamic emperors in history. but this not prove that no non-business religion exist.
      the first wife of Muhammad (PBUH) was a very rich trader and they spent all their money in way of Islam and buying and making free slaves. and then prophet became poor. even had not money for food and fasten a stone to his stomach to not feel hungry. and always said "poverty is my honor"
      so please explain how it was business?
      or you know Jesus (PBUH) said give your food and cloth to others. how it is business?
      you want to say because some or most of religious organizations are business then ALL religions are business? this is a false logic.

      "I believe that some day far off in our human evolution we will not need to have a god to live our lives in the way our religions of today guide us to live them. There will be a day...."
      I believe the opposite. one they humanity understands there is a God and all should pray it.
      do you have any proof for this belief?

      please read my new treads starting in your name.
      • Jun 30 2011: SR - Islam was certainly a business.

        The Qur'an's god makes armed robbery "easy:" Qur'an 48:19 "He rewarded them with abundant spoils that they will capture. Allah is Mighty, Wise. Allah has promised you much booty that you shall take, and He has made this easy for you. He has restrained the hands of men from you; that it may be a sign for the Believers that He may guide you to a Straight Path . And other benefits which you have not yet obtained."

        Read the hadith, the only one who got booty from the victory over Mecca was Muhammad. He inherited his heart's desire - the Ka'aba. All other Muslims lost ground, as future spoils were divided inequitably, unfairly favoring the new converts.

        Notice the confession, Allah promised the Muslims "abundant spoils" and "much booty." He did not promise them "many souls." Islam wasn't about salvation or even conversion. It was about conquest and money.

        Tabari IX:36
        Ishaq:596 "'Prophet, this group of Ansar have a grudge against you for what you did with the booty and how you divided it among your own people.' 'Ansar, what is this talk I hear from you? What is the grudge you harbor? Do you think ill of me? Did I not come to you when you were erring and needy, and then made rich by Allah? Do you hold a grudge against me and are you mentally disturbed because of the WORLDLY THINGS by which I conciliate a people and win them over so that they will embrace Islam and become Muslims?"!!

        Tabari IX:79 "In this year the zakat was made obligatory, and the Messenger dispatched his agents to collect it. The verse was revealed: 'Take the zakat from their wealth to purify them.'"

        continued.
      • Jun 30 2011: SR - con't.

        Tabari IX:86 "He orders you to give one fifth of Allah's booty and pay the zakat tax. It is enjoined on the faithful from their land and property.... And don't seduce [try to convert] the Jews or Christians for incumbent on them is to pay the jizyah protection tax [much higher than the zakat]. Allah's Apostle dispersed his representatives to every land where Islam had entered to collect the zakat."
        Bukhari: V9B87N127 "The Prophet said, 'I have been awarded victory by terror so the treasures OF THE EARTH are mine.'"

        Tabari VII:106 "Abu Azzah, you are a poet, so aid us with your tongue. Join our expedition and I swear before Allah I will make you a rich man.'"
        Qur'an 3:14 "BEAUTIFUL FOR MEN IS the love of the things they covet, desiring women, hoards of gold and silver, attractive horses, cattle and well-tilled land. These are the pleasures of THIS WORLD'S LIFE."

        Qur'an 8:69 "So enjoy what you took as booty; the spoils are lawful and good."
        Ishaq:327 "Allah made booty lawful and good. He used it to incite the Muslims to unity of purpose. So enjoy what you have captured."

        Ishaq:324 "Allah taught them how to divide the spoil. He made it lawful and said, 'A FIFTH OF THE BOOTY BELONGS TO THE APOSTLE.'

        If the prophet was poor then why, after his death do we get this?:

        Tabari IX:196 "Fatimah [Muhammad's daughter] and Ali [Muhammad's adopted son and Fatimah's husband] came to Bakr demanding their share of inheritance of the Messenger. They demanded Muhammad's land in Fadak and his share of Khaybar's tribute."

        Bukhari:V5B59N546 "Fatimah, the daughter of the Prophet, sent someone to Bakr, asking for her inheritance of what Allah's Apostle had left of the property taken from the Fai booty gained without fighting in Medina and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus [Muhammad's fifth of the booty gained through fighting] of the Khaybar booty."

        SR - why do you only believe the words of God that suit you and ignore the rest?
  • Jun 29 2011: SR and J Ali - thank you for engaging me in these discussions. I think we have many questions and answers for each other to respond to. I have just gone over things and tried to respond as much as I could. I'm sure I missed some points that have been presented and deserve rebuttal. I will keep this in mind and come back try to continue with you but for now I have to take a break. I am just too busy. I will check in to see what you have to say and await your answers to some of my most important questions like the ones that point toward Muhammad being a false prophet and the Qur'an being untrue in relation to world history.

    Oh that reminds me, you said all the bible's were gathered together in 170 AD and destroyed and only 4 deviated copies released ( I think). This is absolutely impossible. You would have to have gathered tens of thousands of copies , all of them in existence not missing even one throughout all or most of the known world. And not leave a single scrap behind. This is just preposterous, they have found lots of portions of the bible that pre date this time, everyone knows this. None of these copies or fragments or artifacts, pottery etc. coincide with the Qur'an.

    Your position is false.

    Anyway for now we can agree to disagree. I must go and return more sparingly. Good luck.
    • Jun 29 2011: This is my last reply to you, Elam..

      ''And that is the reason for God changing a verse of his divine revelation''

      No he did not change the verse.....he changed the Islamic law.....as the first law was temporary in itself......

      Elam, ALL of your claims are a result of no Arabic at all.......

      '' It must be tough for Muslims. ''

      The Quran is very clear.....the problem we have is with people like you who don't even speak or write or know anything about Arabic..and even when we try to explain to you, you are not willing......and then you read translations and you start giving ''contradictions'' ''difficulties'' and so on.........

      So please, realize that you have zero understanding of Arabic and of the Quran...you know nothing about the Quran, nothing. I am sorry if that upsets you, since you have been researching into the Quran, but that is the reality.... your arguments sound very funny and ridiculous to me because I understand Arabic and the Quran....I really love to argue, but your not really 'getting' what I am saying...Maybe with S.R it is because of his language...you two can sort that out....

      That is why it is very difficult for me to explain to you when you are so sure you are correct, ignorantly....so,from now on, I will not argue with you anymore....there is no point....it is just a waste of time, it is like I am teaching you Arabic.....I am very disappointed that that is the case...Brilliant Muslim scholars who have studied the Quran their whole lives have answered all of your claims...and they even noticed possible difficulties and answered them before they were even asked.....that is why our books are full of questions-by Muslims, jews and christians- and answers.....so your claim that we haven't read the Quran or that we are scared of questions is sad.......please understand this and stop being ignorant.....I hope you can realize what I am saying to you....The Quran is not like the Bible or the Torah......

      Thank you and I wish you the best.......
    • Jun 29 2011: "Oh that reminds me, you said all the bible's were gathered together in 170 AD and destroyed and only 4 deviated copies released "
      I said there were collect when Jesus (PBUH) was disappeared. and until 170 people had no bible.

      "You would have to have gathered tens of thousands of copies "
      that time was not like now. did you hear about Galilee? people all were in prison.
      also possible some copies was not destroyed.
      but main point is the people who collected bibles that time are now controlling large media in world like Hollywood TV newspaper Internet,... and do not let people find those original versions.
      also false references you use are made by them.

      "None of these copies or fragments or artifacts, pottery etc. coincide with the Qur'an."
      are you sure? do you have access to them? they are protected in secret libraries of church.
  • Comment deleted

    • Jun 29 2011: Dear iqbal,
      I ask you do not throw tons of links. I have not enough time to reply them all.
      please:
      1- pick one ( or max 3)
      2- yourself research it and yourself check the translate of verse in different translates from quran.al-islam.org
      3- then write YOURSELF results here.

      please talk one subject at a time.

      "S.R, do you approve this ban? if not please explain ."
      I am not living in Dutch. I do not know.
      but in Islam eating has special rules (standards).
      not all fruit should be eat
      some meat are banned
      some fishes are banned
      some birds are banned
      wine is banned
      and all are good for health.
      anything harming to body are banned in Islam.

      for example birds are when allowed to eat that they have an extra finger on their crus.
      or only clinquant fishes are allowed to eat.
      wine is corrosive to wisdom.
      Koran says wine has benefits for people and has harms. but its harms is more than its benefits.
  • Jun 28 2011: Dear Elam,
    Please find my new treads. I write your name at first of comment.
    "It is situational scripture for the prophet's benefit. It makes a thinking person wonder if he was making it up as he went along."
    yes they are in prophet benefit. So what?
    Bible or Torah do not have anything in benefit of prophets?
    Actually they are lessons for all women.


    Please note that Muslim and Islam mean obeying God.
    All prophets were Muslims.

    "The Qur'an is not a proof of itself. If anything it disproves itself because of so many errant sayings."
    Koran is miracle in any aspect. For example in Arabic poem and Arabic grammer.
    You are right. But Koran has not even one error

    "I have shown you proof that the Bible was not changed."
    how!
    So why many versions of it exist today?

    "I have been showing you proof that the Qur'an is false (as have many other people). You are not able to refute it because you can't so you just give up and say you will expose me, but you don't."
    please go slow. What you proved?
    please say your claims one by one and wait for reply and then say "I proved"

    Please note that the language of books differ and one word is different in languages. And today the original bible and Torah are not available.

    "All you have to do is show me a quote in the Bible that proves I am wrong and I will back off, and apologize."
    First you show original bible.

    "I find the Qur'anic account of pre Muhammad events completely unbelievable. The more I read the Qur'an the more nonsense I find. It can't all be due to the translations."
    its because you read invalid references and believed them.
    • Jun 29 2011: SR - Let's not forget there are many versions of the Qur'an today as well, translations. They are not all the same. The dead seas scrolls etc. that were written in the original language of the scribes of the time are not translations and are therefore authentic.

      We have seen here how the Qur'an has changed from the Yemeni papers to today via the addition of diacritical marks etc. which 'clarify' the meaning and therefore have the ability to alter the meaning. If was penned the exact word of God it would not need any revision vie diacritical marks etc.

      I even gave you this quote from Bukhari: "Ibn Abbas asked, 'Which of the two readings of the Qur'an do you prefer?' The Prophet answered, 'The reading of Abdallah ibn Mas'ud.' Then Abdallah came to him, and he learned what was altered and abrogated." This is reasonably clear. The Hadith says that portions of the Qur'an were conflicting, changed, and cancelled.

      Do you know what 'abrogate' means? Abrogate - to Repeal or do away with, revoke, rescind, repudiate, overturn, annul, cancel, invalidate, nullify, void, negate. You can't do any of these things without changing the actual text.

      They were not just different ways of saying the same thing.

      Then I gave you this: "the first "manuscript" wasn't even in Muhammad’s tongue, requiring it to be translated. Bukhari:V4B56N709 "Uthman called Zaid, Abdallah, Said, and Abd-Rahman. They wrote the manuscripts of the Qur'an in the form of a book in several copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi persons, 'If you differ with Zaid bin Thabit on any point of the Qur'an, then write it in the language of the Quraysh, as the Qur'an was revealed in their language.' So they acted accordingly."

      This is supposed to be the word for word exact saying of God revealed in the Arabic language, unchanged.

      According to Islam's scriptures it is just not so.

      If Bukhari isn't good enough for you then why is it in the scriptures. Tabari is even more absurd in my opinion.
      • Jun 29 2011: Koran has only one version in text.
        the versions are about reading method. not text.

        "
        We have seen here how the Qur'an has changed from the Yemeni papers to today"
        you did not show.
        oh my God!!! I explained it you before. the link you showed does not show ant important change in Yemany Koran and today Koran.
        only one word of Koran has conflict in text but is not important in meaning.

        addition of diacritical marks etc are about reading and pronunciation and not change in text or meaning. it is for having a standard pronunciation as prophet pronounced. but there is no doubt in text. it is for that different accents of Arabic not influence text of Koran in long term.

        "I even gave you this quote from Bukhari: "Ibn Abbas asked, 'Which of the two readings of the Qur'an do you prefer?' The Prophet answered, 'The reading of Abdallah ibn Mas'ud.'"
        did not you see my past reply. it is READING READING READING READING READING .
        NOT TEXT.

        "Do you know what 'abrogate' means?"
        replied 3 times before. I am sorry.

        "They were not just different ways of saying the same thing."
        so what are them? proof?

        "Then I gave you this: "the first "manuscript" wasn't even"
        Koran was protected y memorizing by at least 500 known companions. not only manuscript. many parallel ways of protecting.

        also not any hadith is valid and language of Quraish does not mean different text.

        there are many many books other than Bukhari and Tabari. you should consider them all. not only some errors in books that fit your goal.
        • Jun 30 2011: SR - The only islamic books worth considering when searching for the truth are: The Qur'an, Ishaq, Tabari, Bukhari, and perhaps Muslim who was a student of Bukhari.

          As I have pointed out before, and you cannot deny. ALL other books written about the subject are based on these. There are no other historical records before these.

          I've also pointed out that there were NOT 500 companions reciting the Qur'an as it was revealed. 8 years and more than 25 surahs into his Ministry, Muhamad had less that 30 converts! I have given you quotes to prove this and you have acknowledged that I am right, so stop saying it.

          If I were J Ali I would say to you, "stop lying or I will expose you".
        • Jul 1 2011: J Ali - I know I have offended you. I apologize for the hurt that I may have caused. I just don't know how to say my peace about Islam without calling a spade a spade.

          I have given you a challenge which you have not been able to meet in our search for the truth. That is that Muhammad was lying about his Biblical - prophet credentials. I have shown how the Torah that he referred to in his statement wherein he claims he is foretold is the same one we have today and that he is not in there. Neither is he mentioned in the New Covenant.

          You cannot give me the quotes because they do not exist. If you come up with something, you know I will demolish it because it will not be true. What you know about the Biblical characters is only from Islamic sources and that is minimal at best, entirely erroneous at worst.

          You have told me that if I want to learn about Islam I should ask those who live and love it. Not from someone who hates it. I think both is a good idea. I guess I have asked you the wrong questions, but you and SR have referred me to a number of sights that will improve my understanding, so I thank you for that.

          Perhaps you should follow your own advice. If you want to know about the Jews you should learn it form them, read the Bible. Not some one who hates them like Muhammad did. Reading what other people say about themselves is very revealing. In reading your comments I see that you get a very positive message from Islam and you see an endless amount of good there. I respect that and it reaffirms to me that there is good in everything.

          I can't help it if Craig Winn hates Islam, it's not my problem. Hating is an emotion I don't allow myself to indulge in during my quest for spiritual truth.

          Name calling and labeling does not answer questions or help. It seems to me you are a good person and are doing good so just keep it up, don't worry about people like me.

          I doubt i will get back to this site anyway as other things must be done.
        • Jul 1 2011: you say:

          ''BEAUTIFUL FOR MEN IS the love of the things they covet, desiring women, hoards of gold and silver, attractive horses, cattle and well-tilled land. These are the pleasures of THIS WORLD'S LIFE."''

          The correct translation, with the FULL verse is:


          ''Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things they covet: Women and sons; Heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses branded (for blood and excellence); and (wealth of) cattle and well-tilled land. Such are the possessions of this world's life; but in nearness to Allah is the best of the goals (To return to).''

          3:14

          PLEASE read the last part which you just cut off, please stop misquoting the Quran, please stop lying. Even before this verse this part is mentioned

          ''Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah. They are themselves but fuel for the Fire.''

          3:10

          Why do you lie?? is it because you hate Islam so much or is it because you are just copying from people who hate Islam?!!

          ''I know I have offended you.''

          Your arguments do not offend me, I love arguments just like our Great Muslim Scholars who have filled their books with arguments from non-Muslims..I am not scared of your arguments...I am offended by your blatant lying.....I am offended by your hate......I am not offended by people like Richard who do not lie or hate Islam.

          http://www.answering-christianity.com/craig_winns_list_of_lies.htm

          http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/deception_of_craig_winn_revealed.htm

          So please know who you are copying from.....know what you are doing....know how wrong your actions are...Do not lie, do not misquote, do not change verses.....that is what makes me feel offended.....your lies are so much, I just decided to leave you going, with your flow as Iqbal says..your flow of copying or lying..... SR, just ignore him.

          I do not know if you are innocent or not....But you for sure, you have not the Quran. you just copy..

          contd
        • Jul 1 2011: If I had enough time, I would see all of your comments and compile a list of your lies, your misquotes, your changing of words....... You claimed that you had read the whole Quran, but all you did was read Craig Winns books and pick out misquoted quotes from the Quran.....Craig Winn has been exposed many times....so I don't need to expose you independently, because you just copy from him...... I respect you as a human being....but I just hate it when people lie so much, misquote so much..... The Quran is the most misquoted book in the world.....and I want to ask why? why is it like that? Are people scared of the truth of the Quran or Islam?? why do you misquote? is it because of September 11? the criminals who committed those crimes were not Muslims...... I hate them just as much as you.....I hate them just as much as Craig Winn......But, Craig Winn lies, and his lies are not working. Honest people who are searching for the truth are reading the true Quran.....and people are converting to Islam faster than ever...no one is listening to you.....I think you came in to this argument thinking we didn't know anything about the Quran....But I warned you, and I exposed you... Your lies are too much to handle....I would argue with anyone who is honest...but not with people who lie.....that is why, after I exposed you copying from Craig Winn, you have decided to leave...... I decided to leave because you are a liar, you decided to leave because you were exposed.


          ''In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.''

          2:10

          ''And whenever a surah is revealed there are some of them who say: Which one of you hath thus increased in faith? As for those who believe, it hath increased them in faith and they rejoice (therefor).
          ''But as for those in whose hearts is disease, it only addeth wickedness to their wickedness, and they die while they are disbelievers.''

          9:124-125


          Contd.
        • Jul 1 2011: ''O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest.''

          4:174

          ''O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allah. believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.''

          4:170

          ''Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."

          7:158

          ''O men! there has come to you indeed an admonition from your Lord and a healing for what is in the breasts and a guidance and a mercy for the believers.''

          10:57

          ''Say: O people! indeed there has come to you the truth from your Lord, therefore whoever goes aright, he goes aright only for the good of his own soul, and whoever goes astray, he goes astray only to the detriment of it, and I am not a custodian over you.''

          10:108

          ''O mankind! Fear your Lord. Lo! the earthquake of the Hour (of Doom) is a tremendous thing.''

          22:1

          ''O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition!''

          22:73

          ''O mankind! do your duty to your Lord, and fear (the coming of) a Day when no father can avail aught for his son, nor a son avail aught for his father. Verily, the promise of Allah is true: let not then this present life deceive you, nor let the chief Deceiver deceive you about Allah.''

          31:33

          ''O men! you are they who stand in need of Allah, and Allah is He Who is the Self-sufficient, the Praised One.''

          35:15
        • Jul 8 2011: J Ali - Muhammad claims to be identified as a prophet of the Jewish God in the Torah that the Jews possessed in 625 A.D. Which is the same one we have today and he is not in there. I have challenged you to give me a quote from the Bible to prove what Muhammad said was true, but you cannot. When you cannot answer the tough questions you resort to name calling and labelling me a hater of Islam etc. This does nothing to prove your point. You expect that I will not be back to these discussions so you take a swipe at me from behind expecting that I won't be there to defend myself. Not nice.

          Since you have had 8 days to come up with a quote but haven't, and since unlike you, I've actually read the Bible, let me help you.

          Deuteronomy 18:22, “But the prophet who ziyd (presumptuously) debar (subdues (i.e., imposes submission or Islam)) and RECITES a book in my name which I have not commanded him to utter, or who speaks in the name of other elohiym (gods [like Allah]), that prophet shall die."

          That's about as close as we get to finding Muhammad in the Torah.

          I don't think you are being honest with yourself. Craig Winn has found many glaring problems with the Islamic scriptures that Islamist cannot answer and you're no different. I have brought some of them to the forefront here and the best you can do is hide behind the Arabic language and avoid the fact that the Qur'an has nothing to stand on but blind faith.

          I have read the Qur'an cover to cover and in my opinion the only miracle is that anyone believes it. When subjected to rational inquiry it completely falls apart. Only through deceit and circular reasoning can you defend it. Craig Winn may not be right about some things but when you put the Qur'an in the historical context of the Hadith anyone can see that Muhammad was a 'warlord' tyrant with a personal agenda, and suddenly everything makes sense. Your convoluted reasoning does not make sense to me.
        • Jul 8 2011: @J Ali – you have said, “The Quran's ideas are open for discussion...but not what the Quran says..you need to be an expert at Arabic, Islam and more to understand what the Quran is saying”. I disagree with this statement because if it were true then Islam is not for all people, as you have said somewhere else in this discussion, it is for arabic speaking people only, and even then you and SR have said only certain 'infallible' scholars are able to give the true meaning. So how can anyone be a Muslim if they do not speak arabic. As you know there are many Muslims throughout the world who do not understand arabic. How can that be? Isn't believing in Allah and his messenger essential to being a Muslim? How can one do that if they can not understand what the Islamic scriptures say? You give quotes in English and expect us to understand your point so there must be some validity to the translations.

          Okay, you say, “the Qur'an's ideas are open for discussion... but not what it says”. This does not make any sense. How can you discuss the ideas without knowing what they are, which one can only get through knowing what it says?

          This all seems to be designed to set up the ultimate 'infallible' to tell us what it says and we have no right to engage our minds in refuting anything in the Qur'an, we must accept the interpretation as absolute truth before we can even begin, in which case we are only allowed to be force fed the meanings and we just follow like zombies and believe. Is this what you do? In short, we have no choice. You have no choice because you have accepted Islam as the truth and everything follows from there.

          This is a problem for any thinking person who has been raised in a system that allows us to actually question what we hear and read, to seek the truth through rational thought and to make our own judgement based on the evidence and discuss it in a free and open manner.

          con't.
        • Jul 8 2011: You use the arabic language as an escape hatch saying that it cannot be translated into any language. I find that preposterous. I think we can at least agree that the “ideas” can be translated and therefore open to discussion.

          Qur'an position: Qur'an has true message, it is based on the Judeo scriptures which somehow, sometime got so corrupted that virtually every sentence in it has had to be changed so that the meanings of the two are completely different.

          The Qur'an gives us dialogue of Biblical characters in what is supposed to be the exact words of God. The Bible gives us dialogue etc. That is different. According to the Islamic position the Biblical account is wrong. You believe it because you have no choice, but when I look at it, I see that the Biblical account is the story of a people written by those very same people. It is historically grounded and detailed enough to give a full context of what happened, when it happened, and why. Much of the information can be verified from independent historical records, archaeological digs and artifacts. Prophets are identified by name and they actually prophesy things that can be seen to come true hundreds of years later. The information is documented over 1500 years, generation after generation until it was canonized in 100 AD. All this adds a level of believability to the content. Doesn't mean it is totally true, doesn't mean I believe it, but if it doesn't contradict independent information then who am I or you to say that it is not an honest attempt of a people to document their history as it happened?

          So then 500 years after all this is done, along comes the Qur'an that tells a completely different story about some of the same characters, offers no reference to time and context and there is nothing to historically prove the Qur'anic variation. There is no reference to Allah, Muhammad, Mecca, or the Ka'aba prior to and independent of the Qur'an or Hadith. con't.
        • Jul 8 2011: The Qur'an makes statements that are patently untrue as Richard and others have pointed out in this debate. It is told through the mouth of an Arab who had no knowledge of the Jewish people's history that it is rewriting so it could only be true IF it was the word of God.

          Qur'an 3:3: "Step by Step, He [Allah] has verily revealed to you this Book [the Qur'an] in truth and confirmation of the Books revealed before, as indeed He had revealed the Torah and the Gospel earlier as a guide for people..."
          Qur'an 5:46 "Later, in the train of the prophets, We [Allah] sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah which had been sent down before him, and gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light, which corroborated the earlier Torah."

          Again, it says, “we gave him (Jesus) the Gospel”. This statement has no chance of being true. The Gospels were not given to Jesus. In fact they were not written until 20 to 50 years after his death.

          The crux of the position of Islam is the claim that all the original patriarchs of the Bible, beginning with Abraham all the way to Jesus, were actually Muslims and worshipped God in the same way that Muslims do now, in accordance with the teachings of Muhammad who being a prophet of God, brought them back from paganism to the original faith of Islam. The Jews and the Christians of course never acknowledged this and thus still carry on in some form of pagan ignorance and fail to recognize the true faith to which they were all originally a part of, but only the Muslims now practice. If this premise is false then Islam is based on a lie.

          The Jewish God, Yahwey does not ask or order his creation to prostrate themselves in worship of him any where in the Bible nor does he demand submission, nor does he choose for them.

          Challenge: Give me one logical reason why I or anyone should believe the Qur'an's account of these Jewish characters instead of the Bibles.
      • Jul 1 2011: Dear Elam,
        the first best Islamic Books:
        1- Koran
        2- Nahj Al-Balagha from Ali (brother of Koran) http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/
        3- SAHIFA SAJJADIYYA (sister of Koran) http://www.al-islam.org/sahifa/

        then Valid Hadith Collection Books that you did not mentioned them. for example the Behar al-Anvar which is a high valuable collection with 110 volume which is one of the best Shia Islamic encyclopedia.
        also other valid Hadith Collections exist.
        there are some error hadith (sayings) in the Hadith collection books.

        about number of companions memorizing Koran:
        prophet himself always checked and memorize Koran by Gabriel (the angel of revelation)
        you are right at first years of Islam few people accepted Islam. prophet invited Arabs and his family to Islam but they did not accept. they said of you are true tell that tree come out of earth and come to To we know you are a magician or prophet. Prophet said I know you do not accept but OK. Prophet did what they wanted. Then they said tell half of tree back to its place. Prophet did. They said tell the other half go its place. Prophet did. Then they said you are a magician.
        Only Ali accepted prophet when Ali was 9 years old.
        first human accepted Islam after prophet was Ali and then Khadija (wife of prophet).
        men and women memorized Koran to protect it.
        but please note I said 500 for before death of prophet. not from fist day of Islam.
        before prophet die prophet himself audited Koran memorizing very exact and corrected them. before prophet death not important number of Koran memorizes be few. because prophet himself was alive and with direct connect to God. if prophet be not trusted then nothing has meaning. also Koran one time again completely was revealed to prophet. and at death time of prophet at least 500 companion (man and woman) were memorized all the Koran exact and correct. not important at first years of Islam memorizers were few. (500 are known well even their family tree.even more but not recorded clear and valid
      • Jul 1 2011: Dear Elam, what is your idea about Ali (PBUH)?
        why you did not say the book of Ali as your best Islamic books.
        http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/
        it is wonderful.
        please read this as a little example of Ali miracles in governance methods:
        http://www.al-islam.org/anthology/2.htm
        only a governor knows the value of this
        • Jul 9 2011: SR - Thanks for the links. I will read what you have sent me from Ali when I get a chance, I'm sure it will be informative.
      • Jul 9 2011: Dear Elam,
        "I have challenged you to give me a quote from the Bible to prove what Muhammad said was true"
        Did you see my past comments?:
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+bible
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+torah
        you are researcher or copier?

        "Deuteronomy 18:22"
        Do you consider books written by humans valid?
        Only one book of jew is valid: the original version of Torah. Not other books written by human. Unless proved to be said by Moses (PBUH)

        "Craig Winn has found many glaring problems with the Islamic scriptures "
        Do not blindly follow him. Pick one of his proofs and talk it here. And consider possibility that he be a liar.

        "hide behind the Arabic language and avoid the fact that the Qur'an has nothing to stand on but blind faith."
        You have access to arabic dics, websites, friends, consaltants, professionals and can simply disprove our claims about arabic language. Actually you are hiding behind not knowing arabic.

        "I have read the Qur'an cover to cover and in my opinion the only miracle is that anyone believes it."
        Please consider problems in yourself or quality of translate.

        "Craig Winn may not be right about some things "
        He is false about almost all things. He is Intentionally lying and changing and deviating history.

        "'warlord' tyrant with a personal agenda"
        You know prophet from glasses of an enemy of prophet so no wonder.

        "you need to be an expert at Arabic, Islam and more to understand what the Quran is saying”"
        No. Koran has many levels. If you want simple studying not need. But deep research needs.
        Please note enemies of Islam find some special arabic words in Koran with different meanings and abuse it against Islam. Such cases need knowing Arabic. But if you need study Koran no need to learn arabic. You can read translate.
        • Jul 9 2011: SR - yes I read those links. They are so full of assumptions and false reasoning that anyone could knock them to pieces. First of all there is absolutely no credible proof that Muhammad was even a descendant of Ishmael, secondly the message of Moses and Muhammad is opposite. Moses brought the Ten Commandments, Muhammad violated every one of them. There is no need to go through this point by point. The links prove nothing. Only by convoluted reasoning and misinterpretation can one draw the conclusion that Muhammad was the subject of these prophesies.

          The message of the Qur'an and Bible is opposite so reason would dictate they are not from the same god. Muhammad never once quoted any saying from the Bible ( Jesus on the other hand did).

          IF you believe those quotes are referring to Muhammad then you must believe that what the Bible says it true. You cannot give me a Bible quote and say it proves your point and then say, as you did in another comment that the Bible is false and the Qur'an is true.

          Here's the problem for Islam. If the Bible is true, the Islam is false because in contradicts it's message in virtually every way. If the Bible is not false, then again the Qur'an is false because it says:

          Qur'an 3:3: "Step by Step, He [Allah] has verily revealed to you this Book [the Qur'an] in truth and CONFIRMATION of the Books revealed before, as indeed He had revealed the Torah and the Gospel earlier as a guide for people..."

          Qur'an 46:2 "And before it the Book of Musa [Moses] was a guide: and this [Qur'an] is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language."

          Qur'an 80:13 "(It is) in Books held in (honor), exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy, (written) by the hands of scribes. Honorable, Pious, Just, Noble and righteous."

          The Qur'an does not confirm the Torah and Gospel, if it did there would be no difference in spiritual understanding between Islam, Judeo or Christianity. SO SOMEONE IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.
      • Jul 9 2011: "infallible"
        Koran has two parts. Many parts of Koran can be understood by all/ but some certain parts with more than one possible meaning only interpret of infallibles are valid and their interprets are aviable also in many books and sayings from them.

        "So how can anyone be a Muslim if they do not speak arabic. "
        People can be Muslim without know Arabic (only little min. req. is enough) but if you want to be a Koran researcher you should know Arabic. Many Muslims in Iran do not know Arabic.
        Please distinguish between Muslim and Researcher.
        Do all Jew and Christians know ancient Hebrew language?

        I have a simple Question. You do not know brain medicine. If you have a brain pain what you do? Do the same for Arabic.

        “the Qur'an's ideas are open for discussion... but not what it says”
        I do not understand what exactly j Ali says but Koran is open to discuss. People should not personally interpret Koran for their benefit with not enough proof.
        People always asked infallible and they replied them. Infallible do not say anything irrational. Infallible are representatives of God. You can not find even one error or irrational saying of them. If you see an infallible you love him immediately (if you not be enemy of God). Infallibles are open to discuss and always replied people rationally and people accept them rationally, not blindly. Infallible is all knowing with absolute knowledge of anything and is open to discuss and never says "I do not know"
        I recommend you first know them well. you will love them.
        www.al-islam.org
        they all killed or jailed for you. read their life.

        "You believe it because you have no choice"
        Also fact is that many different versions of Bible exist today. What means this? Which is true Bible?!

        Koran is always compatible with facts, science, rational and knowledge and wisdom.

        "It is historically grounded and detailed enough to give a full context of what happened"
        No. because religion was a tool of power and Bible was intentionally deviated.
      • Jul 9 2011: "until it was canonized in 100 AD"
        Bible was deviated Intentionally before 100 AD. Because even at that time more than one version of Bible existed and non was original bible of time of life of Jesus (PBUH).

        "honest attempt of a people to document their history as it happened? "
        Who are them. Please not today media is in control of Zionists who are enemy of religion and feed people what want even false information about history that people think they are true history.

        "offers no reference "
        No no no

        If some one do enough research can find facts in old scriptures.

        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+bible
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+torah

        "as Richard and others have pointed out in this debate."
        They are apparently untrue. Please read replies to them.
        They are blind copying from invalid links.

        "Qur'an 3:3: "Step by Step, "
        Yes but Koran means original books. But deviated versions or books written by hand of human. Why you not see such verses in Koran:??!!
        http://tanzil.net/#2:79 and many such verses about deviations in scriptures.
        Only pick verses in your benefit?
        this is what Craig Winn feeds you and you accept without research.

        "were actually Muslims "
        Yes true.
        "and worshipped God in the same way that Muslims do now"
        No. when Koran said this? Their methods was different.
        This is again lies of Craig Winn.
        Religions had differences.

        "nor does he demand submission, nor does he choose for them."
        are you sure this?

        "Challenge: Give me one logical reason why I or anyone should believe the Qur'an's account of these Jewish characters instead of the Bibles."
        1- if you accept REAL God exist
        2- if you know why God created human
        3- if you know why God sent prophets
        4- if you accept Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (peace upon them) were same messengers of God

        Then you automatically accept that the latest and most updated and most valid and minimum deviated religion and book and prophet sent really from God is the best choice of TODAY.
        • Jul 13 2011: SR- Thank you for getting back to me. You truly are dedicated. I apologize for being so abrupt. Let me take a little more time to consider what you say.

          You are convinced that the Bible changed a lot during it's 1500 years of construction and you are right to some extent, as far as I can tell. But it would have to have changed almost completely for the Qur'an to be right. The Jewish concept of the one true God is not the same at all as the Islamic. But my point was more to the historical accuracy of the accounts of certain Biblical character's lives would have to change in order for the Qur'an to be right. History that is proven to be largely correct through independent means. At least the Bible has a historical perspective. The Qur'an has none. It just parachutes in 600 years later and brings an entirely different story with nothing to prove it's reliability but blind faith in that Muhammad was saying in his recitals was the exact revelation of God.

          Again, no one but Muhammad heard the message until he recited what was revealed. There is nothing in history to prove his version of events from Abraham to Jesus. Nothing.

          I'm looking for a rational reason why I should believe the Qur'anic version when the Biblical one is so much more comprehensive and complete and makes sense and can be verified to some extent by independent history.

          The Qur'an is not clear if it requires an 'infallible' to explain it. I'm sure they are great guys but I like to be able to recognize God for myself. He shouldn't be hiding behind the wisdom of a rare few.

          Yes, I pick verses in the Qur'an which are to the benefit of my point, and you pick verses which are to the benefit of your point. Some of these verses are contradictory and that is why we get a different message.

          And yes I am sure that Yahweh does not demand submission nor does he choose our religion for us. I don't think any Biblical scholar would argue that.

          The differences between Yahweh and Allah are extreme.
        • Jul 13 2011: Thank you Iqbal, these are very good Biblical quotes written 600 years before Muhammad showed up on the scene.

          SR - I've asked you for a logical/rational reason to believe the Qur'anic account of Biblical events. You have suggested, I think, that if I see that Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were all prophets of the same God then it is logical that I would choose to follow the last one. The problems are:
          1) Moses is not even identified as a prophet in the Bible. It tells the story of his life and the hand that God played in it.
          2) Jesus was a prophet but his message is opposite to Muhammad's so I cannot believe in both, even though both profess to speak on behalf on one true God.

          The Biblical account of events is grounded in historical context etc., The Qur'an's is not. The Bible has many prophets who narrate stories with a consistent perspective of God over 1500 years. Muhammad was the only one who heard his revelations and they are not consistent with Biblical perspectives. Furthermore Muhammad was a known liar who counseled his followers to lie for his personal benefit. He committed lying, stealing and murder on behalf of his God and said it was okay because the ends justify the means.

          Again, why should I rationally believe the Qur'an's account of events, which contradicts the Bible's? I say it is logical that I follow the one that makes the most sense not necessarily the last one since it is different and I cannot follow both.

          The basic message of the Qur'an as I see it is: 'Fear Allah and obey the Messenger and pay the money so the Messenger can become rich and powerful, or Allah will kick your ass in the hereafter.'

          Fact is no one could commit a crime against his human brethren and say they did it because Jesus did, yet anyone could say they committed murder, stealing and lying because Muhammad did. This does not bode well for a supposed prophet of God.
      • Jul 10 2011: about first youtube I think I replied you.
        about second :
        Islam has no trinity and all is clear. Allah is God and creator.
        Muhammad (PBUH) is messenger of God.
        Gibrael is the angel of revelation. and delivers messages from God to prophet.
        the black stone of Kaaba is a special stone came to earth from Heaven. it is a holy stone. nothing more. some says it has been an angel who was friend of Adam in Heaven and came to Adam to help him not cry so much. and after speaking Adam that angel changed the shape to stone and Adam carried it with himself until God said Adam place that stone in Kaba.
        please if there is still any question please ask.
        Islam has no trinity and trinity is considered a sin in Islam.
        any kind of believing to more than one God is banned and sin in Islam and is like praying statue (deity)
        • Jul 13 2011: SR-Wow, you really are brave. I wouldn't want to try to explain away the black stone that Muhammad repeatedly kissed while circumambulating the Ka'aba in the typical pagan fashion of the day.

          So Adam placed this special angelic stone in the Ka'aba some 7000 years ago and Muslims still circumambulate it today. This is starting to sound like a fairy tale. I don't think I'll bother to get into this one right now, I just don't have the time.

          But I can't help asking a few more questions.

          What did Abraham do when he took Ishmael to the Ka'aba? Qur'an 2:127 " As Abraham and Ishmael built up the foundations of the House (they prayed) 'Our Lord accept (this) from us. You are the all hearing, the All Knowing."

          Why did Abraham cross 900 miles of desert to arrive in the middle of no where and build the Ka'aba if the promised land was Israel? as indicated even by Allah in 5:21.

          Who is Quasay? and what did he accomplish? Who is Ar-Rahman? Why if Yahweh is the one true God as depicted in the Biblical scriptures does he change his name to Ar-Rahman and then to Allah in the Qur'anic scriptures? Why are these names not mentioned in the Biblical scriptures if we are dealing with the same God.

          The only explanation you have given is that the Bible was changed? Why would the Biblical scribes generation after generation for 1500 years bother to change the name of their God throughout? Just to foil Muhammad? Why would they depict a God whose Character is completely different than that of Allah? Just to foil Muhammad? Why would they corrupt their own spiritual understanding of themselves and their God by changing their scriptures from what they originally were? Just to foil Muhammad?

          Remember, Jesus came and opened the door for all people to believe in the God of Love.

          I know I am firing a lot of questions at you here and it is too much to answer in this forum. You have given me some links to follow so I will continue to study it.
      • Jul 10 2011: Dear Elam,
        sorry, when I said "if I accept first that the Qur'an is the true representation of the REAL God"?
        please look at no.1 it is first.
        it is not circular. you can accept or not accept existence of God. and accepting God is by wisdom and science and knowledge not circular.
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
        please do not misquote me.

        "I asked you for a LOGICAL reason."
        Dear Elam. this is step by step like studying grades. before you get diploma you can not get Phd. first of all you should solve problem of existence of God and decide about it. all depends on God.
        this maybe useful. this is Logical:
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
        read it from first to end.

        "Your reply has completely failed."
        if you read my no.1 carefully it is not failed. no.1 itself is a long talk (talk of yourself with yourself based on your knowledge and logic). if you passed no. 1 then other start.

        "Qur'an 2:7 "GOD has sealed their hearts and their ears"
        please read carefully:
        1- human has free will
        2- God gives gifts like food life body eye ear money wife ,.... equal to all people. actually God is helping all humans equal regardless of their beliefs
        3- based on free will people become two main category: believe God & not believe God
        4- based on selected category a human walk in a way (of two way) until end of his life.
        5- the life is by help of God actually human lives with helps and gifts of God.
        6- how much human lives more and more his beliefs become stronger more and more (by helps of God)
        7- so God is helping them divisible God more and more
        8- God calls disbelievers blind and deaf because they do not accept truth.
        9- so first they select to be disbeliever then God help them to strength their beliefs
        10- so actually God is making them beliefs by his gifts and helps but first themselves selected this and God only helped them. (God not decided for them. they have free will)
        • Jul 13 2011: SR - Hi, back to the challenge of logical choice. Your answer was:

          "1- if you accept REAL God exist" Okay, let's go with that. I accept.

          "2- if you know why God created human" I am not sure, but I would say it is a natural cause of God being everywhere. He created us so that we might be like him since we came from him/her. In Qur'an 51:56 Allah says, "I have created jinn and men only to worship Me." This seems awfully egotistical of God. He needs his ego stroked so he created us puny humans for one purpose only, to worship him?

          "3- if you know why God sent prophets" Let's see, in the Bible God sent prophets to help keep the people on the straight and narrow, so they would not go astray, and to prophesy the coming of the Messiah who is the intercessor between imperfect man and perfect God. The prophets also documented the history of the people. They warned the people of real calamities that were about to befall them and they prophesied the end times for man when the equation between man and God would be changed.

          In the Qur'an there is but one prophet that counts and he came to scam the people and build a religion so he could get rich, have lots of sex and have power and authority over the people for his own personal gain. At least that's what I gather from the Qur'an and Hadith.

          What do you think?

          Moses and Jesus carried essentially the same message. Muhammad brought a completely different message so it could not have been from the same God. I just can't get past this one. You must read the Bible to get the difference, especially the New Covenant. How does anyone know what is good unless they find out what is bad? Really, read it. If you are seeking the truth it can't hurt. Just read it for what it says. If you condemn it before reading it as a changed doctrine that would otherwise have been the same as the Qur'an you will get nothing out of it. Just read it. You won't have to believe it but you will be wiser.
        • Jul 13 2011: SR -
          you say: "2- God gives gifts like food life body eye ear money wife ,.... equal to all people. actually God is helping all humans equal regardless of their beliefs"

          I simply love your interpretation of God. It seems correct to me, if there is a God.

          You know what is good and what is bad. Thank you for being who you are.

          Forgive me if I struggle with the Islamic scriptures which so often seem to contradict your point of view.

          Nothing further to say on these points 1 to 10.
      • Jul 10 2011: "SR - yes I read those links. They are so full of assumptions and false reasoning"
        agree. but not all of them. I only showed you them for start of research not for proof. I have not done such research yet. I left this one to you. but if needed I can do it and show you proof.
        you know its google and is only a tool for research. not proof itself.

        "First of all there is absolutely no credible proof that Muhammad was even a descendant of Ishmael"
        1- all know dates of each. it is clear.
        2- prophets has knowledge of future from God and any prophet says the name and signs of next messenger to people. prophets know future.

        "the message of Moses and Muhammad is opposite"
        at first look yes. but with doing enough research and finding false parts of scripture there is not conflict. they all are messengers of same God.


        "Moses brought the Ten Commandments, Muhammad violated every one of them."
        please do not say what you are not sure. do more resarch.
        do you know those ten exact?

        "The message of the Qur'an and Bible is opposite "
        only who can say this that be professional in both. please do not go so quick. be patient.

        "as you did in another comment that the Bible is false "
        1- its partially false
        2- its clear that different versions of bible exist today and this proves not all of them are truth.
        3- it is possible to find true parts of bible today. but it is not simple and needs deep research

        "Muhammad never once quoted any saying from the Bible "
        do not say what you do not know. many of such quote exist in Koran. example:
        http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%84%20%D8%B9%D9%8A%D8%B3%D9%8A

        "You cannot give me a Bible quote and say it proves your point "
        i can but it takes time and I am not professional in Bible. also really non of these helped you?!:
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+bible
        if you still insist on this I should research on it. I asked yourself do this research.

        again and again:
        first you should separate original and false parts of scripture.
        • Jul 13 2011: SR -
          Me -"First of all there is absolutely no credible proof that Muhammad was even a descendant of Ishmael"
          Your answer, 1- all know dates of each. it is clear.

          Please provide at least a link. As you know there is a tremendous void from the illiterate people of Arabia. There is 2600 years between Ishmael and Muhammad. You say you have lineage records covering this entire time. I am very interested in this knowledge.

          The descendents of Issac kept records of their lineage in anticipation of the arrival of the Messiah who was to be from the lineage of David from the tribe of Levi.

          The covenant of the Jewish God, Yahweh as depicted in the Bible is with the descendants of Issac. Ishmael has nothing to do with it. I suppose you think that they changed the Bible 1000's of years before Muhammad just to foil him.

          Of interest here: Tabari reports: "Both statements are supported by testimony related on the authority of the Prophet. Both statements are equally sound since they both came from the Prophet. Thus only the Qur'an could serve as proof that the account naming Isaac was clearly the more truthful of the two." But if that is the case, Islam falters, since it draws its legitimacy from Ishmael. Muhammad claims that he was "prophet quality" because he was a direct descendant of Ishmael. In the Bible, nobody cares about Ishmael and his descendants anymore, they have nothing to do with the covenant.

          Tabari II:83 "'We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.' [Qur'an 37:107] refers to Isaac." But how can that be? In verse 104 Allah says, "We called out, 'Abraham, You have fulfilled your dream, thus do we reward the good. That was indeed a trying test.' So... 37:112: We gave him the good news of Isaac." How can Abe have nearly sacrificed Isaac if the reward for fulfilling that trying test was Isaac? Or is the Qur'an just jumping around in time and therefore misleading us?
        • Jul 16 2011: SR -
          Me, "Muhammad never once quoted any saying from the Bible "

          You, "do not say what you do not know. many of such quote exist in Koran. example:
          http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%84%20%D8%B9%D9%8A%D8%B3%D9%8A"

          SR - please be advised that when Jesus quoted the prophet Isiah or some other Biblical character you can actually go to the Bible and find that quote. You will not find any of Muhammad's supposed quotes in the Bible.

          Why can we find what Jesus says is in there but not what Muhammad says if they are both speaking for the same God? Muhammad's scriptural quotes are a farce. There is no independent record that shows anyone during the time of Jesus used the terms Muslim, Allah, or Islam like Muhammad said (or supposedly recited from Allah word for word), Why, because they didn't exist.

          Evidence of Islam's existence from Jesus all the way back to Noah simply is not there. This is a desperate struggle for legitimacy that Islam cannot win. In the end it will prove itself to be a lie. In fact it already has, it's just a matter of time before Islamic adherents admit it.
      • Jul 13 2011: Dear Elam,
        You are wise human at least hearing me without prejudice. The ability that most western people do not have it . They immediately attack Muslims based on Images like Bin laden and so on.

        "The Jewish concept of the one true God is not the same at all as the Islamic."
        OK. So one of them has problems. Which?

        "History that is proven to be largely correct through independent means."
        how you define "proven largely correct"? And how they proved?
        Please distinguish between "largely believed correct" and "largely proved correct".

        "At least the Bible has a historical perspective. The Qur'an has none. "
        there is ocean of Islamic literature and history. But mostly in Arabic and Persian language. I think even 1% of Islamic literature and history is not translated. For each subject thousands of sayings exist. For example for a subject like Hajj I think at least 10000 sayings exist.

        "nothing to prove it's reliability but blind faith "
        Please do not say this about Muslims before you have enough knowledge and research about it.

        "Again, no one but Muhammad heard the message until he recited what was revealed."
        Yes this is definition of prophet.

        "There is nothing in history to prove his version of events from Abraham to Jesus. Nothing."
        did any history exist at that time? When paper was used? Does history proves the scripture version of events from Abraham to Jesus (PBUT). In this case all Abrahamic religions are the same. For example consider Noah Ark story. It is in Koran as well as in scriptures.

        "I'm looking for a rational reason why I should believe the Qur'anic version when the Biblical one is so much more comprehensive and complete and makes sense and can be verified to some extent by independent history."
        1- A rational human does not believe none of them before enough research.
        2- For each one you first should can in documents in their own language. Not a simple internet search.
        3- Make sure Islamic information are much more comprehensive and complete. B
      • Jul 13 2011: 3- Make sure Islamic information are much more comprehensive and complete. But they are not in your language!

        "The Qur'an is not clear if it requires an 'infallible' to explain it. "
        Koran has two parts. Some are clear and some not. Infallible is for unclear parts. Now did you used its clear parts first? If you start God does not leave you and Guides you.
        God promised:" who try in our way Indeed we show them our ways"
        http://tanzil.net/#29:69

        "I like to be able to recognize God for myself."
        Please note Koran and prophet and religion is not for recognizing God.
        recognizing God is by wisdom. Then if you needed details for reaching and meeting God then they are guides and helps for details. Wisdom can not understand details. Revelation is help for covering errors of wisdom.

        "Some of these verses are contradictory and that is why we get a different message."
        The are contradictory at first look. But more research show they are parts of bigger message.

        "And yes I am sure that Yahweh does not demand submission nor does he choose our religion for us. "
        You mean there is no sin or good or evil defined in Judaism? Doing goods means submission. Submission is doing instructions. Submission is obeying.
        Did not Yahweh choose Judaism?


        "The differences between Yahweh and Allah are extreme. "
        please research more. Any problem will be solved by more research.


        Dear Iqbal,
        I agree all your sayings about liar prophets.
        but what is your proof that Muhammad (PBUH) was one of them?
        what is your method for distinguish a real and fake prophet?

        what you consider below?
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith,_Jr.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1b
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27u%27ll%C3%A1h
        or many other

        better to know right know at least 50 prophet and "final savior" are in prisons of Iran!
        do you know Jesus and Mahdi (PBUT) will appear soon from hide and will make a world government in peace?
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi

        I ask you research
        • Jul 13 2011: SR - I can't keep on with this, I simply don't have time.

          Here's the bottom line, for God to create the universe and all that is in it and for it work in harmony in the miraculous ways that it does, it would have to have been an act of love or at the very least, positive energy, nothing would have survived if it was done in hatred or enmity. Conditions were made favourable for life and the cosmos and hence they/we are here. Everything in the world, being the creation of God, is an expression of that love. Hate and negativity also exist but could not have been responsible for creation because within their context, nothing would have survived. Truth and love coincide with God's position because God is love. Furthermore for God to be omniscient he would be in everything and everything would be a part of him.

          Think about it: we came from love; therefore, we must be love in some way, since we must be like what we came from. Jesus put it this way, “He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” Pretty basic.

          Yet somehow through life we manage to move away from our original nature, that which we were created from. Every thought of non-love is a movement away from where we came from, our creator. Every act of judgement, shame, FEAR, anxiety, hatred and violence is a movement toward not loving and not knowing God. Even an anti-love thought is a movement away from our original nature and our creator.

          How is it possible for God to counsel us to kill other members of his creation if they don't believe what we do? How is it possible for God to counsel us to “curse” our fellow members of creation, God's creation? And thereby move toward hatred instead of love.

          I don't think God while expressing to us his nature through scripture, so that we might understand, could possible do that. Therefore Allah is not God and Muhammad is not his messenger because they did all this.

          continued.
        • Jul 14 2011: SR - con't. computer problems and was not able to finish.

          Why would God want to deceive us, lead us astray and torture us in hell, send down scripture that portrays this behaviour in graphic detail so that we might FEAR him and obey the messenger?
          All religions are manmade and designed for the control of people by a select few. A deity of endless nit-picking rules Who is easily offended; always being sinned against; prone to anger, revenge and punishment, like Allah, simply cannot be God, but rather is an obvious creation of man to control others.
          I agree with the words of Dr. Ken W. Dyer in his book 'The Shift' “I don't believe that God is concerned with whether or not we show our love by building magnificent edifices for worship, attending services, or through practicing rules laid down by religious organizations. It seems to me that if God were to speak to us, the message would simply be to love each other and offer reverence instead of enmity toward all life.” The Islamic scriptures totally fail in this regard.
          Qur'anic quotes: 3:56 “I will make the disbelievers suffer severely in this world and the next; no one will help them.”
          Qur'an 5:33 "The recompense for those who fight against Allah and His Messenger and are mischief-makers in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.
          Qur'an 9:5 “When the [four] forbidden months are over, wherever you find the idolaters, kill them, seize them, besiege them, wait for them at every lookout post; but if they turn [to God], maintain the prayer, and pay the zakat tax, let them go on their way, for God is most forgiving and merciful.”
          Qur'an 4:93 ''And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and CURSE him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.''
      • Jul 15 2011: "Why would God want to deceive us"
        God does not deceive. human has free will. human selects the way. and God helps human going the selected way.

        " scripture that portrays this behaviour in graphic detail so that we might FEAR him"
        God did not send graphics. humans made graphics.

        "All religions are manmade and designed for the control of people"
        religion does not control. human is free. human by free will selects to be controlled by religion. so human is controlling itself by religion.

        "simply cannot be God, but rather is an obvious creation of man to control others."
        why? proof? why something sinned is not God?

        "I don't believe that God is concerned "
        yes God is not concerned. human is free to obey or disobey God and it has no benefit or harm for God. benefit is for human. worship is like homework. if you not do yourself lose not teacher.

        about killing please consider all verses related. Koran first insists on peace and talk. but for who block Islam to be heard by people Islam as final way allow fighting them. please do not cut peace verses. and do not show only killing verses.
        killing is ruled and is not for any non-Muslims. it also includes some Muslims. the base in Islam is talk and peace. but some times like cutting a sick organ of body there is not way but fight and killing. please first know all rules and do not pick only rules of killing. also know who exactly Koran says should be killed. who covers and hide truth (true Islam) from his people and feed his people lies about Islam should be killed. not any non-muslims.
        always many non-muslims from all religions came to prophet and prophet welcomed them and talked them with respect and they came back to their country and prophet did not kill them. the history is full of such talks. please do not make a dark Image of Islam by picking some special verses.
        Koran totally should be considered. not only few verses.
        its like I pick execution law from all US laws and I make propaganda that US is all killing
        • Jul 16 2011: SR - Me, "Why would God want to deceive us"

          You, "God does not deceive. human has free will. human selects the way. and God helps human going the selected way."

          Allah deceives. This is a fact.

          Qur'an 2:7 : "Allah has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have great torment."

          4:142 "The hypocrites try to deceive Allah, but it is he who caused them to be deceived."

          Allah deceived the Jews and the Romans when he replaced Jesus with someone else who looked like him to die on the cross. As a result 3 billion Christians have been deceived by Allah.
          God by his very nature is incapable of deceit. The moment he becomes dishonest, he ceases to be good. If God is not true, there is no value in knowing him. And since the Islamic god deceives and leads men astray he can never be trusted, as there is no way of knowing when he is lying.

          One of Allah's names is 'The Deceiver". I'll just call him that from now on, you'll know who I mean.

          Qur'an 4:168 "Allah will not forgive those who disbelieve and do evil, nor will He guide them to any path except that of Hell, where they will remain forever - this is easy for Allah.

          - By Allah describing his torments in hell in graphic detail I mean 'great detail'

          Me, "All religions are manmade and designed for the control of people"
          You, "religion does not control. human is free. human by free will selects to be controlled by religion. so human is controlling itself by religion." Same point. Thanks.

          Me, "simply cannot be God, but rather is an obvious creation of man to control others."
          You, "why? proof? why something sinned is not God?" See above.

          You, "please do not cut peace verses. and do not show only killing verses." Why not? you cut killing verses and only show peace verses.

          Note: the US laws are not considered the exact word of God.
      • Jul 18 2011: "Allah deceives. This is a fact. "
        you mean cheat?
        Allah only cheat who cheat Allah:
        http://tanzil.net/#3:54

        "Allah deceived the Jews and the Romans when he replaced Jesus with someone else who looked like him to die on the cross. As a result 3 billion Christians have been deceived by Allah."
        many Christians now Jesus (PBUH) is hidden and not dead.
        true believers and followers of Christ know truth. Jesus (PBUH) guides them even now.
        you do not know the deceive of Allah well.
        http://tanzil.net/#search/root/%D9%85%D9%83%D8%B1

        deceive not means lying. please first understand it.
        God never deceive a honest human. God deceive who deceive.
        God treat any one like himself.

        "One of Allah's names is 'The Deceiver""
        first understand it well. God is Deceiver for who? for all?

        "You, "why? proof? why something sinned is not God?" See above. "
        sin is disobeying God. sin has no meaning for God. God is not responsible to any one. and all rules of God are clear in Koran.

        "you cut killing verses and only show peace verses."
        no. I want to have true Image of Islam. Islam has also war. but understand correct what kind of war and when is allowed in Islam.

        "Note: the US laws are not considered the exact word of God. "
        I made only one example.
        if some one want to Know US should consider all rules true. not only some and biased and based on propaganda
        • Jul 23 2011: SR-
          you say, " Allah only cheat who cheat Allah". That statement is the crux of non spiritual thinking. Why would God have to cheat anyone? I mean ANYONE. Isn't he God? How can he be cheated? He knows everything. If you fail in your heart it is only man who cheats himself. God is being cheated so he cheats back!? Someone who is trying to control other people might try to out cheat them, but this should be well below a spiritual know er of truth like God. Why would God stoop to play petty cheating games with man?

          I think God is the inner most purest energy, thought, expression possible. That which draws us toward doing good for the sake of connecting to this positive energy. Not that which tries to frighten us away from doing bad. But even if it is both, I cannot see how it is possible for God to cheat us nor why he would want to, or find it necessary to.

          This might be a reasonable sentiment for a cunning human wanting to outsmart his adversaries, but a God who stoops this low, would be a weakling.
      • Jul 18 2011: "You will not find any of Muhammad's supposed quotes in the Bible."
        1- this is based on your Image. not on actual research of you. to prove please show some example.
        2- today Bibles are not from God they are from humans after Jesus (PBUH) so no wonder they have some errors.

        "if they are both speaking for the same God?"
        the original versions have no conflict. also this is your Image. please show some example.
        also bible should not be taken literally.
        and please accept some false information mixed in bible. also which bible you say?

        "Evidence of Islam's existence from Jesus all the way back to Noah simply is not there. This is a desperate struggle for legitimacy that Islam cannot win. In the end it will prove itself to be a lie."
        you are talking based on propaganda. not your deep research.

        "In fact it already has, it's just a matter of time before Islamic adherents admit it."
        huge convert to Islam in west says other thing.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMi_-xqhBYw
        • Jul 23 2011: SR - Me:"You will not find any of Muhammad's supposed quotes in the Bible."

          You: "1- this is based on your Image. not on actual research of you. to prove please show some example."

          I've read both and neither Muhammad nor Allah quote anything that you can look up in the Bible.

          Let me re-phrase that. You will not find Allah's quotes of Biblical characters in the Bible. What's more, the dialogue of these characters in the Qur'an is concerned with entirely different issues than the Bible.

          You cannot show me any legitimate proof that Islam existed any time from Jesus back to Noah and you know it. the Qur'anic tale is completely unproven. It's out on a limb and counter to all known human history. With this at stake and a ridiculous lack evidence, you simply must admit that it is possible that the Qur'an is wrong. If so, you know how the dominoes fall.

          A world conspiracy is a pretty thin thread to hang from when you consider the mountain of ancient artifacts that continue to be found.
      • Jul 20 2011: Dear Iqbal,
        in Islam there is more thousands of sayings about signs of Antichrist at end of world.
        please do not interpret who is Antichrist without proof and evidence.
        determining Antichrist is not simple and needs much research.
        also Antichrist is who comes and end of world.
        prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came 1400 years ago and died.
        Antichrist washes brain of people to people believe he is friend of Christ.
        Nosterdamos is not valid and perhaps friend of Antichrist.
        Nosterdamos is made big using TV and media and simple people believe Nosterdamos lies.
      • Jul 21 2011: Dear iqbal,
        I do not know who is Antichrist. we only know signs. maybe he has not born yet. and maybe it is not a human and is a concept and maybe is a general name for many humans in history. anyway it needs much research. and exact understanding of bible.

        I explained you many times about prophet and 6 years old that it is not true. prophet did not have sex with a 6 years old. please do not believe anything you hear without enough research.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt7vS7kxc50

        about your video God intentionally wants to humans see such humans.
        also any of Fourteen Infallibles can cure such sicks. many many of sicks without cure have cured with them. their body are dead (unless the final who is alive now) but they are now alive and reply to people who meet them.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles

        Imam Ridha is known in world as a doctor with miracle. the cases of people who come from all over the world and cure are not few.
        http://www.imamreza.net/

        also Imam Hussain (PBUH) cures peace of cake

        if a sick has drug people should use drug.
        but for those not having any drug they help. (also some times what have drug. they are extreme merciful to people)

        about signs of true and false prophet I have no prophet to check them about Muhammad (PBUH). but if you promise do not judge based on propaganda and use research.
        a true prophet have fruit. avesina and thousands of Persian scientists and poets are only little example of fruits of him.
      • Jul 23 2011: Dear Elam,
        "Why would God have to cheat anyone?"
        Cheating God is a evil deed. And all punishments of God are similar to deed. So the punishment of cheating God is cheat of God.
        Cheat of God is kind of punishment of God.

        "How can he be cheated?"
        Cheating God means a humans thinks is cheating God. But this not mean God is cheated. This is think of human.

        "God is being cheated so he cheats back!? "
        God is not cheated. Some Human try to cheat God.
        Koran not said God is cheated. Said some people try cheat God.


        "I think God is the inner most purest energy"
        God is not energy. But God created energy. Please read some about what is energy.

        Please define positive energy.

        What Induces good thinks in our mind is wisdom (which is a prophet of God) and what induces evil thinks in mind is Satan.

        Some cases of cheats of God is described in Koran. For example God forgets himself from mind of some people and the drawn in money and worldly think and God immediately hunt them with death and they go Hell while they had been forgotten to think and research about God.
        This is one cheat of God for who God do not want to go Heaven. (this is a punish of their past deeds for some evil humans)

        "the dialogue of these characters in the Qur'an is concerned with entirely different issues than the Bible."
        I disagree. Bible is partially changed. But still many common parts exist In both. Please show evidence and example. And do not repeat your beliefs with no proof.

        "You cannot show me any legitimate proof that Islam existed any time from Jesus back to Noah and you know it. "
        Oh my God I repeat again: Islam means obeying and submission to God. All prophets were obeying God. So all are Muslim. Islam is not a especial name like "tree" Islam is a general name like "good". No need to arabic word "Islam" exactly exist in Bible. The translation of Islam is submission. Find it in bible.
        All prophets were submitted to God.

        "A world conspiracy is a pretty thin thread to hang from when you conside
      • Jul 23 2011: "A world conspiracy is a pretty thin thread to hang from when you consider the mountain of ancient artifacts that continue to be found."
        it is relative and means deviations in history. Not mean history is 100% false. It means some false and propaganda is mixed in mind of people by using large media like bbc cnn fox holly wood and so on. Please understand what I mean and do not misquote me. Indeed most parts of history is true. But zeonism abuses the media to change mind of people for his own benefit.
      • Jul 23 2011: Dear iqbal,
        people who can do extraordinary works are two category:
        1- who get their power from God and do miracle.
        2- who get their power from Satan.

        the 1 do not ask any money money for their miraculous helps to people and even after their death if one go to their tomb or even not at tomb they still can help people by miracles.
        but group 2 work for money.

        "when a Iman has some incurable disease he flies to some western country to get treatment from a Jew."
        please note Imam has two meaning. the main mean is only who is representative of God in earth which in Islam are only:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        and also all prophets of God are Imam. Imam is a level higher than prophet and prophet after some tests can become Imam.

        but today a religious leader is also called Imam but it is different meaning.
        yes some go to west for medicine. also many from west come Iran for cheap medicine and surgeries. Iran is good in medicine. Islam says first go doctor but if there was no way Imams can help and this is not for all. but many many people were and now are cured amazingly and miraculously at tombs of Imams.

        "-- doesn't matter whether 6 yrs or 60 yr olds. doesn't make him a true prophet though."
        please talk rational. what is problem of marring an adult girl?
        if this is bad in your country or religion it should be banned in Islam? why? perhaps your beliefs are wrong.

        "there were bigger and brighter people in the world than Avesina.'
        perhaps. it depends of defined of bigger. but Jesus (PBUH) says fruit. fruit is not only biggest man. there are thousands of fruits of Muhammad (PBUH).

        "There were no Avesinas without Indian science and mathematics.'
        do not go fast. he was Kharazmi who used 2 Indian book as refrece.
        if no Indian scientists they also did their work. but thanks for Indians. this is usual in science.

        I not defined God. God had rules. God makes sick to people know value of Health.
    • Jun 29 2011: SR - you say, "yes they are in prophet benefit. So what?
      Bible or Torah do not have anything in benefit of prophets?"

      Unlike Muhammad, Bible prophets did not prophesy for their own benefit. It was for the benefit of their people. Unlike Muhammad, none of them got rich from it. Unlike Muhammad, none of them stole 'booty' from anyone enemy or not. Unlike Muhammad, non of them took sex slaves, wives and concubines from the people they over came after killing their husbands, brother and fathers in terrorist raids or wars.

      you say, "Please note that Muslim and Islam mean obeying God.
      All prophets were Muslims." Islam means "submission" and Muslim means "one who submits". If by Muslim you mean anyone who was doing God's work in good faith, then I get your point. Still one problem though. None of these pre Muhammad prophets would have used the word as Allah claims in his Qur'an because the word didn't exist back in the time of Jesus (30 AD) nor Moses in 1200 BC etc.

      Once again, show me a single document where the term 'Muslim' is used from the time of Jesus back to Abraham.
      Quite frankly Islam's credibility depends on it. If you cannot then you have not only failed to prove the Qur'an is true, you will have proved it to be false for it is not possible that all these important people would have used the term ( as Allah says) and it never got written down anywhere. Maybe you will prove me wrong, but I don't think so.

      I don't have to show you an original Bible. I just have to show you one they would have had in 625 AD when Muhammad said, Ishaq:269 'you know quite well that the Qur'an is from Allah. You will find it written in the Torah WHICH YOU HAVE.'

      It isn't there in the dead sea scrolls, it isn't there at the time the bible was canonized in 100 AD and it isn't there today, nothing has changed since 100 AD, so I can't see why it would be in there in 625 . Meanwhile Muhammad was illiterate so how would he know?
      • Jun 29 2011: also cases in Koran are in benefit of people. it needs research about them. please do not prejudice. you should know many things about history of Islam then you see they are in benefit of people.
        you are not a real researcher.

        "non of them took sex slaves, wives and concubines from the people they over came after killing their husbands, brother and fathers in terrorist raids or wars."
        are you sure?
        did have Jesus (PBUH) any war? any prophet was in situation of prophet did same behaviors. contexts are different so behaviors are different. but laws of God are the same.

        "because the word didn't exist back in the time of Jesus (30 AD) nor Moses in 1200 BC etc."
        "Once again, show me a single document where the term 'Muslim' is used from the time of Jesus back to Abraham."
        you should seek translate of Muslim word in Hebrew.

        "Quite frankly Islam's credibility depends on it."
        not only. Islam has enough independent credit and miracles and proof even if all old scriptures are not available. but if you research in old books you will find.
        SEEKER IS FINDER

        "You will find it"
        it means after seeking and research. not buying a bible from first shop and reading it.
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+bible
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muhammad+in+torah

        you are researcher or copier?

        "It isn't there in the dead sea scrolls, it isn't there at the time the bible was canonized in 100 AD and it isn't there today, nothing has changed since 100 AD, so I can't see why it would be in there in 625 ."
        there is. but needs research and not easy to find. and also it is not in Arabic language. Muhammad (PBUH) word is Arabic. but you can find other words only matching Muhammad (PBUH).
        also Koran Islam itself have enough Independent proofs. only real seeker is needed.

        "Meanwhile Muhammad was illiterate so how would he know?"
        by revelation from God.
        God has absolute knowledge of all things.
      • Jul 14 2011: sorry threads are long I repeat here:
        Dear Elam,
        "1) Moses is not even identified as a prophet in the Bible."
        I am not professional at bible so I ask well versed Christians to engage this.
        I think this user is well versed in Bible:
        http://www.ted.com/profiles/839620
        Please read his comments here:
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/3181/islam_beliefs_christianity_b.html
        Also please look:
        http://bible.org/seriespage/moses-premiere-prophet
        Also consider today scriptures are not 100% original

        "Jesus was a prophet but his message is opposite to Muhammad's"
        I am sure this is apparently. Please say some example to solve them.

        Koran has many stories of prophets. I think 25 prophet.


        "Muhammad was the only one who heard his revelations "
        yes like Jesus and Moses (PBUT)

        "Furthermore Muhammad was a known liar "
        Oh! This is 100% false. Historical evidence? He became prophet at age 40. before it he was very very respected and was famous for his honesty and trusteeship. There was no bank and when people going travel he kept their gold and monies to they back. He was famous for honesty.

        "counseled his followers to lie for his personal benefit."
        what??!! Evidence?
        Personal benefit?
        Lie in Islam is allowed only in 3 special case and none is personal benefit.

        "He committed lying, stealing and murder on behalf of his God and said it was okay because the ends justify the means."
        sorry. your brain is washed about him. All is false. Please explain them with some proof. You are brainwashed or at least misunderstanding.

        "why should I rationally believe the Qur'an's account of events, which contradicts the Bible's? "
        again it needs research. Contradictions are apparently. And also some false is mixed Bible.
        Please say one example. I think you have some beliefs with no proof.

        "pay the money so the Messenger can become rich and powerful"
        100% false. Prophet did not ask money from people.
        http://tanzil.net/#11:51
        Prophet only asked one wage:
        http://tanzil.net/#42:23
        http://en.wikipedia.
        • Jul 15 2011: SR - Hi,
          I think Thomas Jones has made a very good point. You have your faith based point of view and feel you have all the answers or at least all the answers can be found to explain Islam's scriptures which many see as horrific. I have been getting an improved perspective of Islam as we discuss the issues. There have been many valid Qur'anic quotes presented in this forum that point to an extremely violent and negative point of view as far as doing good for humanity goes. There have also been some very beautiful ones brought forth that can inspire people like you to obtain a lot of good.

          If you have never really seriously read someone Else's scriptures giving them the credit they deserve and working to understand their point of view, then you will stay with your beliefs and not know any different.

          I'm trying not to do that. That is why I gave Islam a chance and read the Qur'an. For me, it doesn't work because of the preponderance of negative stuff. Flat out, I don't believe it. This religion rose up off the back of the Jewish religion changing the message that was there and has absolutely nothing to stand its' claim on. Judaism on the other hand wrote it's own history which is largely verified by historical events in other countries of the time. Islam began with Muhammad in 610. There appears to be no evidence to indicate that 'Islam' or 'Muslim' even existed as terms or concepts around the time of Jesus and further back. To suggest this is to suggest deception on a world conspiracy level. Quite frankly impossible, more than impossible. Believing this stuff is being brain washed.

          Let me ask you a question: If the Muslim religion was so great even way back in Noah's day, why is there no mention of it in the Persian ancient history? Or the Greek?

          Between you and me, I think Islam is trying to deceive us SR. Yet I see you as someone doing good. Only problem what is good for human. You can surrender to Love but you cannot be in submission to it.
      • Jul 14 2011: Prophet only asked one wage:
        http://tanzil.net/#42:23
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        Can you prove prophet only one time asked money for himself. Prophet married to a highly rich trader woman and they spent all their money in way of Islam to became poor. Prophet always was poor. And said:
        "poverty is my honor"
        Yes Islam asked giving money to poor people but not to prophet.
        I am sorry you do not know prophet and are speaking about it. So sorry.
        He was poor. Very poor.
        His home was a simple four wall with roof by leafs that rain came inside home. With only a cloth as door.
        His cloth was cheapest and food was very simple.
        Please study more and more.
        http://www.shiamultimedia.com/englishbooks.html

        People Kiss black stone themselves. Not Islam rule. Only 7 times turning around Kaaba (Hajj) one time in all life is rule.

        God said Ibrahim raised up foundations of kaaba. ( not built). It was repairing not new build.
        Did you know only representative of God (prophet of Imam) can place black stone in Kaaba (when repairs) unless it falls down. This is recorded in history times that only http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles could place black stone that not fall.

        Hajj (going ro Kaaba) is a special travel and has many facts. Its long.

        Also ZamZam water in mecca is amazing water.
        http://www.masaru-emoto.net/


        "Why did Abraham cross 900 miles of desert to arrive in the middle of no where and build the Ka'aba if the promised land was Israel?"
        it was Intend of God!
        Promised land was for a special time for a special people. Not for ever.

        What you mean by Quasay?

        Ar-Rahman (merciful) is one name of God. God has many names 99 of them mentioned in Koran:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Islam
        Actually each name representates one attribute of one God.
        Yahweh is name of God in Hebrew language. But same God.
        Allah is name Al-Rahman is attribute.
        For example your name is Elam and you have some attributes like mercyful, kind,…
        Actual
      • Jul 14 2011: For example your name is Elam and you have some attributes like mercyful, kind,…
        Actually each name of God is one rule of God and names are for knowing God more and more. Each name has ocean of knowledge.
        Allah is name. then human asks. What is Allah? Then names are for knowing God.
        Names depict character of God.

        "The only explanation you have given is that the Bible was changed?"
        Please be paitient to read my reply and do not prejudice.

        I am happy when I see firing lots of questions. This is my enjoy.
        But I hope some researcher ask me. Not who do not read my replies and has dogma.

        "He needs his ego stroked so he created us puny humans for one purpose only, to worship him? "
        God said 3 reason for crating human. I have explained this many times in TED.
        They are actually one goal but in 3 level. The main goal of God for creating human is:
        "God Intended to be known"
        So God created human to know God. And created all things for needs and train of human. The entity of God can not be known. God has 4 zone of knowing. The zones 1,2,3 are only and only for God alone and no one can enter those zones. Only the zone 4 can be known and it is attributes of. So human should know attributes of God to can know God using attributes. So God created one good per each attribute. But Good without opposite has no meaning. For example Hot has no meaning when there is no cold and so on. So God created one evil per each good. For example "honesty and lie". There are military of Goods and military of evils.
        The verse you say are homeworks for human to be prapare to know God. (pray and worship are like homeworks)
        The first book here is useful:
        http://www.shiamultimedia.com/englishbooks1.html

        I agree you about prophets. God created wisdom to human know God using it. And prophets are something like cheats in a exam. For guiding human.

        "build a religion so he could get rich"
        Muhammad (PBUH) was poor in his life. Study it please.
        He did not marry when he was young. (for povetry). And he ha
      • Jul 14 2011: And he had only one young woman. His first wife was not young. He had 9 marriage with order of God and they were not young and each was for a special political or educational reason and it was by order of God and only for prophet. Please do not prejudice before research.He had power but did not abuse it. He was poor.

        " Muhammad brought a completely different message "
        example? I am sure they are misunderstandings of Koran or deviations in scriptures.

        I have read bible (not perfect) and I know now there are different versions of bible. Existing different versions proves changing.

        "I simply love your interpretation of God."
        I try to do not interpret Koran by myself. What I say are quotes from :
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        But still I have my personal errors and evils.
        My evils are more than my goods.

        "Please provide at least a link. "
        I am sorry. I had a misunderstanding of you. The family tree of Muhammad (PBUH) exists but not to very past. I agree you. Historically there is no evidence. This is a sample:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_Muhammad
        But this is not complete. Arabic versions show some older fathers. But not until Ismael. I agree you. This is in Koran.

        I did not understand you about Isaac. Sorry. Plz simplify.
        But Abraham wanted to scarify his son Ismael not Isaac. Isaac was
        Abraham did not have only Isaac. But Ismael was the other son of Abrahim and Ismael is the father of Arabs and as Jews because of jealousy and enormity to Arabs hide truth about Ismael. Isaac is father of Jews. And Jews want to the honor of scarify be for their father.
        Also Torah says the scarify is for Ismael. You know Ismael was first son and Isaac born later and Isaac lived with Ismael untill death of Ismael. But Torah says:
        "scarify your ONLY son." but who is only son? Jews changed Torah and wrote Isaac instead of Ismael. But Isaac never was ONLY son.
        Only son is Ismael. Not Isaac. (I know Torah reference but in Persian. need?)
      • Jul 14 2011: Dear iqbal,
        "real prophet - spread peace even to your enemies. Committed to spread God's message by sacrificing his own life. Gives importance to spiritual life.
        result :produces many saints."
        this is true about Muhammad (PBUH).

        Your information about Muhammad (PBUH) is very little. I ask you more research.
        The root of word Islam is selm which is peace.

        Please reply:
        If you are a prophet and you have absolute knowledge and you want to spread peace but a cruel man block and jail you to you can not communicate people and you can not talk even one of people? You can talk Only your wife and you both are blocked from any contact to people. what you do? You have no way to communicate people unless kill that cruel man.
        Please reply.
        Also please what is your definition of peace. If peace is not possible unless you first do a war what you do? And If you do not war the peace will never appear.

        Muhammad (PBUH) did not marry to enjoy. They were orders of God.
        1- He did not marry when he was young
        2- His first wife was not young
        3- Until death of his first wife he did not had any other wife.
        4- When his wife died he was old.
        5- He has 9 marriage with only one young and other aged widows
        6- Each marrage has special reason and story. Political and cultural and educational
        How this is only for enjoy?!
        he was a poor man while had greater power. And was extreme spiritual.
        Many? He produced Many many many saints
      • Jul 14 2011: Dear Elam,
        "God is love. "
        What you mean? Only this? God has no rule? No Hell? No worship?
        Only God is love and finish?

        "we came from love"
        What you mean? We came from our mother.

        "God is love"
        God created love but itself is not Love but religion is Love.
        Obeying God is Loving God. How you love some one while disobey him?
        Saying only God is Love is justifying disobeying God.

        "How is it possible for God to counsel us to kill other members of his creation if they don't believe what we do? "
        God did say such thing. Please do not misquote Koran.

        "How is it possible for God to counsel us to “curse” our fellow members of creation, God's creation?"
        When God said this?
        Please leave propaganda of TV against Muslims.
        Did you here about "news of the world" and the emperor of media?

        Please do not decide so quick about Allah and Muhammad (PBUH) this is risky.
        • Jul 15 2011: SR - you have many questions about love.

          Here is part of a Surah from the Bible written by the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians. Paul was the guy who really got Christianity off the ground. And he didn't have to kill anybody to do it. He simply followed the teachings of Jesus.

          This small portion of one Surah beats anything and everything in the Qur'an.

          The opening line is even prophetic, as Muhammad, claimed to have spoken for angels and to have received his message as a clanging bell: 1 Corinthians 1-8 "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong, a clanging cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous. Love does not brag and is not arrogant; it does not act unbecomingly. Love does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails; but whether there be prophesies, they shall be done away with; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

          It is not knowledge that can save mankind, it is only love. It is not threats of Allah torturing us in Hell, not Fear nor Submission nor virgins in paradise that will bring us to God. It is Love: nothing more, nothing less.

          Then, 1 John 4:16 ..."God is love, and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him." 4:18 "There is no FEAR in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He that FEARS is not made perfect in love."

          God is a concept not a person.
        • Jul 15 2011: SR -

          Me: "How is it possible for God to counsel us to kill other members of his creation if they don't believe what we do? "
          You: "God did say such thing. Please do not misquote Koran." Allah said this many times.

          example - Qur'an 5:33 "The recompense for those who fight against Allah and His Messenger and are mischief-makers in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

          Me: "How is it possible for God to counsel us to “curse” our fellow members of creation, God's creation?"
          You: "When God said this?
          Please leave propaganda of TV against Muslims."

          For your reading pleasure we have:

          Qur'an 4:93 ''And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and CURSE him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.''

          I got that quote from J Ali. Please read the Qur'an and stop lying.
      • Jul 14 2011: "proof is Koran."
        I hope one day you learn talking serious and rational.

        "I don't have any more respect for Koran."
        irrelevant and not important for me.

        "read about Jesus."
        he had no chance to fight against Roman empire. if he had min. power Indeed he did. also I am not sure he had no fight against his enemies.
        I agree with peace. but some times there is no way unless fight unless you are dead.
        defend is a rational response. but Indian culture specially Hinduism or Buddhism has not such thing named defense and history showed they do not show any response again attacks and stand and look being killed.

        "even Mohammad had an eye on its back."
        sorry i did not understand this. but we kill and eat cows. and do not consider them God.

        RESPECT OTHERS BELIEFS TO OTHERS RESPECT YOUR BELIEFS.
      • Jul 15 2011: Elam - Hi,

        "You have your faith based point of view and feel you have all the answers "
        Please not accusing other side to dogma does not prove anything.
        This is knowledge of Koran. Not me. I am nothing.


        "point to an extremely violent and negative point of view"
        Agree. But if some one believe in God and know the exact meaning of them and does not misinterpret them they are not negative.
        Also cutting an sick organ of body seems negative at first look.

        I have read someone Else's scriptures but I am not professional In them.

        Arabs of tribal Arabia could not write or read how could make such religion by changing Judaism?
        Muhammad did not write anything in his life. He was uneducated and had a donkey.

        You have high knowledge about Judaism and little knowledge about Islam and this causes you make wrong concludes about isalm.

        "indicate that 'Islam' or 'Muslim' even existed as terms or concepts around the time of Jesus and further back. "
        Oh My God! Do you know what is language? Please look their translates in other languages.

        "a world conspiracy level"
        I believe this. Only look at news about media emperor and its "the news of the world"

        "why is there no mention of it in the Persian ancient history?"
        Please note to dates. When Islam entered Iran? History is for past. Nit future.

        "Between you and me, I think Islam is trying to deceive us SR"
        Islam wants to Guide us to divine life. But we ourselves deceive ourselves to enjoy short life of world.

        "Only problem what is good for human."
        please first say what is "good" itself?

        Good and bad are relative. Bad can simply become good by changing beliefs of people.

        By me good is "what God want to we do or think" and evil is "disobeying God" and all rules of God are defined in Koran.
        • Jul 15 2011: SR -

          You say: "Arabs of tribal Arabia could not write or read how could make such religion by changing Judaism?
          Muhammad did not write anything in his life. He was uneducated and had a donkey."

          Exactly! and that is why he had to change the Judeo scripture in order for it to fit his simplistic personal agenda (and justified what he was doing) He could not have duplicated it and confirmed it's message even if he wanted to.

          Why do you believe the Arabs instead of the Jews? I advise you step out of Islam and open your mind to a reality that is not based on deceit.

          Me: "Only problem what is good for human."

          You: "please first say what is "good" itself?

          Good and bad are relative. Bad can simply become good by changing beliefs of people."

          What is 'good for humanity' is what helps us move forward in such a manner that we can reach our full potential, allow us to love and be loved, create positive societies that support one another and not do negative and destructive things.

          Everyone wants to be loved. Even the most hateful killer wants to be loved. We should seek to love our brethren, and you don't do that by separating 'Us' from 'Them'. When you divide the world into 2 classes, Muslims and Non-Muslims, Christians and Non-Christians you have created separation among people and separation from God.

          I agree with the following posted by a fellow on TED and you gave me the link but unfortunately I did not copy his name and cannot find the original conversation so I cannot give him the credit by name:

          ' "are the Muslim God & the Christian God are the same?"
          They have the same base, yes. But are they the same God? Hmm... maybe... if God has changed his mind on a lot of questions between the Bible and the Quran, which would make him fallible, which would contradict both the Bible and Quran."

          If God is God and has message for all people then his message must be consistent. It is deception to believe that the Bible had the same message as the Qur'an, Ever.
        • Jul 18 2011: SR - Hi, I am getting behind in our conversation.

          Me: "point to an extremely violent and negative point of view"
          You: Agree. But if some one believe in God and know the exact meaning of them and does not misinterpret them they are not negative.

          Jesus said, "except that you become as a child, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." To me this means that the message of God must be simple. It must have a simple element in it at its' core that even a child naturally connects with. Therefor if scripture requires a staggering amount of reasoning to conclude that it actually means something different than what is written, then a) it is pointless, and b) it is not the truth.

          You: "You have high knowledge about Judaism and little knowledge about Islam and this causes you make wrong concludes about isalm" Maybe, but even if I don't understand Islam well, I do understand its basic principles enough to decide to follow it if I thought it was on the right path.

          Me: "There is nothing to indicate that 'Islam' or 'Muslim' even existed as terms or concepts around the time of Jesus and further back. " Again SR, if you find this statement incorrect the point me something that does. Something that was not written after 610 AD. Back to Noah is a long way. That is before the rise of civilization as we know it today so there should be lots of artifacts etc. commemorating the monotheistic faith of Islam from then right through the time of Jesus to Muhammad. Especially if Islam existed throughout the time between Abraham and after Jesus to 150 AD.
      • Jul 16 2011: Dear Elam,
        I agree your verse about love.
        I have problem with this:
        God is love!
        I agree love and know the value of Love. But I disagree God is love. Love is a creature of God. Love is like a magnet absorbing human to God.

        "God is a concept not a person. "
        Yes agree. But I heard Christians believe God is a man In sky.

        "Qur'an 5:33 "The recompense for those who fight against Allah and His Messenger "
        so not kill messengers to Muslims not fight you.
        What you do if one kill your family? You sit and watch?

        "Qur'an 4:93 ''And whoever kills a believer intentionally"
        لعن in this verse means being sans mercy of God although is translated curse. And this is kind of punish.
        God is Just and this and a Just God punishes and rewards based on defined rules.
        By curse I thought you mean abusive.

        "Exactly! and that is why he had to change the Judeo scripture in order for it to fit his simplistic personal agenda"
        do you have any proof for this scenario?
        why some Jews immigrated to a place near Mecca (bani nazir village if I am correct) because their books predicted new messenger appearing in mecca?
        also he was uneducated how he could copy from jew books?
        if you know the context of Arab of that time you do not say this scenario.

        "Why do you believe the Arabs instead of the Jews?"
        I only believe wisdom and logic and proof and evidence. not arab not jew.
        I am fan of who has proof and evidence. jew or arab. do you hate arabs?

        "What is 'good for humanity' is what helps us move forward in such a manner that we can reach our full potential"
        what is moving forward? how you ensure you are not going back and you think you go forward?
        what is potential? do you know potential powers of soul?
        what is positive and negative?
        who defines them. each human has different definition of positive and negative. also believing or not believing in after life changed defines.
        how who has limited knowledge can decide for others?
        http://tanzil.net/#2:216
        • Jul 18 2011: SR -
          Me: "God is a concept not a person. "
          You: "Yes agree. But I heard Christians believe God is a man In sky."

          Oh ya..., and I heard Muslims believe God is something/someone that is going to drag us into Hell and torture us there if we don't follow his instructions.

          Most Christians believe, I think, that God dwells inside us, in our hearts etc, as such is the purpose of the Holy Spirit brought to us by Jesus.

          If God is omniscient and created all the world then God is not a being separate from us. God is in us and we are in God. We are part of God's creation and God's creation is part of this omniscient God. If all the world was created, it could only have been done through positive energy (the ultimate of which is Love), otherwise we would not have survived. The Earth would never have become suitable for life if the Universe was created from negative energy. So it seems to me, the closest we can get to God is to Love.

          I don't see the Islamic God as being a good representative of Love. He is a nasty bugger. By the way, Yahweh isn't so nice sometimes either, but at least he provided for an intercessor to bring us a message that would provide a bridge between us imperfect humans and perfect God.

          Jesus brought a message of Love which is available to all mankind. In this context that makes sense. Muhammad brought a message of separation, always Muslims fighting non Muslims.
          Tell me how Muslims attacking and murdering the Qurayza people, or the people of Kaybar (who were just minding their own business) was an expression of Love.
          Tell me how Muslim bandits attacking and robbing the merchant caravans of the Quraysh (who were just minding their own business) was an expression of Love.
          Tell me how Allah dragging infidels into Hell and torturing them there inflicting great pain, where the will never get out nor be forgiven, is an expression of love.

          To me the Islamic scriptures don't make sense. They are not the word of an all knowing, all wise loving God.
        • Jul 18 2011: SR - Everyone has limited knowledge and no one is perfect. Otherwise they would be God.
        • Jul 18 2011: SR -
          Me: "Why do you believe the Arabs instead of the Jews?"

          You: "I only believe wisdom and logic and proof and evidence. not arab not jew.
          I am fan of who has proof and evidence. jew or arab. do you hate arabs?"

          Likewise. That's why I believe the Jewish version of events. It doesn't require you to believe in their God in order to accept it's historical accuracy. You can do so logically.

          "Do I hate Arabs?' Please, your question hurts me. I do not hate Arabs. That is nonsense to me. Everyone is an individual before they belong to any group, ethnic, national, spiritual or what ever. I am sorry if I gave you that impression. Sometimes I take a position and try to extrapolate it to its ultimate extent, just to see where it leads. This helps me decide if it is good for me or not. It's just my nature.

          I am not a Jew, nor am I a Christian, nor am I an Arab, nor am I an Atheist. I'm just trying to take an independent look at the Abrahamic religions (and some others) to see what I get.

          I'm not convinced that there is an all knowing creator of the Universe. But i see there is reality beyond our physical observance and I see Spiritual thought as central to our humanity, so I am interested in what the great spiritual thinkers are presenting to us.

          At this point I see Islam as the poorest of all attempts to define spiritual reality.
      • Jul 16 2011: we do not class muslims and non muslims.
        we class who accept logic and proof and who not accept.
        Islam is based on peace and talk and proof and evidence. and war is the final solution and only against who block voice of islam from being heard by people. not for any non muslims. non muslims are respected. also do not mix wars of prophet and wars of emperors after prophet for worldly greed in the name of Islam.

        God never changes mind.
        I wonder why you not want accept changes made in scripture during history?
        Jews changed scriptures piece of cake and today large media is in their control and feed think of people.
        • Jul 18 2011: SR -
          You: " wonder why you not want accept changes made in scripture during history?
          Jews changed scriptures piece of cake and today large media is in their control and feed think of people."

          I do accept that the Bible has changed, but not to the extent that it would have had the same message as the Qur'an. There is no evidence of this. The Bible does not claim to be the exact word of God, other than the (10) commandments given to Moses. The Bible was written by Jewish scribes depicting their history as it happened along with some inspirational insights into their God and his involvement in the events. They provided prophesies etc.

          Muhammad changed the Judeo/Christian scriptures, piece of cake and today a large media in in Islamic control and feed the people his lies. His divergent message has no context or historical backing. Just out of the blue, claimed his message was based on those scriptures. The Qur'an is not flawless. Only if you believe it first, then deny/revise the facts, can anyone actually think this is true.

          Forget the Bible, forget the Qur'an. Read the history of the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans. How can Muhammad's version be true, and everyone else, including those who have no stake in the matter, be false?

          Open your mind, stop being so fixated on the perspective given to you only through the Islamic world. The truth will set you free.

          Start by coming to visit me in Canada. This is easy if you have the money. Fly into the city of Vancouver, I will pick you up at the airport, you can stay with me for a couple of weeks. I will provide for you while you are here. You can meet some of my friends, enjoy a different space. No one will try to harm you or change what you think. Just hang out with us and enjoy life. Perhaps you will come back and decide to stay, live amongst us, enrich our lives through your culture and insights. You are welcome. This is a serious invitation.
        • Jul 18 2011: SR -
          you say: "we class who accept logic and proof and who not accept." But the acceptable logic is that which complies with the Qur'an, ONLY.

          Let's try some logic that can apply to anyone.

          You say, "but today Koran is 100% what exited from mouth of Muhammad (PBUH)"

          But it is 100% different than what Jesus had to say, so we're not talking about a little deviation here and there. You're suggesting a complete change of spiritual concepts. This is not possible if Yahweh and Allah are the same God. So the premise is false.

          Even if every word was changed in the Bible and it is nothing like what it used to be. I like it better than the Qur'an. It does a much better job (especially the New Covenant) of depicting the Loving, Forgiving, and Merciful nature of God and what core values we can use to access God, than does the Qur'an.

          It is absurd to believe that more than a thousand years before Muhammad emerged in Arabia that Jewish scribes purposely altered the whole of their scriptures just to foil him.
          Qur'an 2:40 "O Children of Israel, remember the favors I bestowed on you. So keep My Covenant so that I fulfil your covenant. Fear Me. And believe in what I sent down, confirming and verifying the Scripture which you possess already." This reconfirms that Islam is irrational. Q cannot verify or confirm B if Q condemns and contradicts B. Further, if B is true and Q opposes B, then Q must be false. And again Muhammad refers to the Torah which the Jews 'possessed' in his day 610 – 632 AD which is the same one we have today.
          Allah doesn't understand the concept of the Messiah; Proof: Qur'an 4:171 "O people of the Book (Christians), do not be fanatical in your faith, and say nothing but the truth about Allah. The Messiah who is Isa (Jesus), son of Mariam, was only a messenger of Allah, nothing more. By saying that "Jesus" was the "Messiah," Allah annihilated himself. If Jesus was the Messiah, then he is God, and Allah is not.

          The Messiah is central the entire Bible.
    • Jul 8 2011: J Ali con't - Logic tells us, if the Qur'an was the word of an all knowing God it would have no mistakes. But when we look close, it has mistakes.

      Qur'an 5:20 "Remember, Moses said to his people: 'O my people! Call in remembrance the favor of Allah unto you, when He PRODUCED [past tense]prophets among you and APPOINTED [past tense] kings for you...”

      The first Jewish prophet wouldn't write and the first Jewish king wouldn't reign for another 400 years so Moses could not have said what Allah attributes to him in this verse.

      Of course this is all explained but only if you understand the Qur'an in the “right” way. And of course you have to start with the premise that everything it says is true and any facts that contradict it require the facts to change or some alternate interpretation of the Qur'an. I'm sure you can find that we who approach the subject from outside of the influence of Islam find this silly.

      The Qur'an says that it confirms the Torah and Gospels and that Jesus was a prophet but offers virtually nothing about what he might have said. How do you know what his message was if all you read is the Islamic scriptures? If Christians want to know what Moses said, they read the Torah. If Jesus and Muhammad were on the same team they should have the same message. How can we find out what Jesus said since there is nothing in the Qur'an to fill us in? Right we must go to the Gospels where his life is documented in the context of history and in meticulous detail. And there we find his message is opposite to Muhammad’s.

      The best SR can do is say that the Bible is not the real Bible, the real one would have the same message as the Qur'an, once again all independent information points to that position being false.

      You have done nothing to convince me that Allah is an all knowing God who created the universe. All languages can be translated so stop hiding from the truth.
      • Jul 9 2011: "and APPOINTED [past tense] kings for you...” "
        the correct translate is: and APPOINTED you the kings.

        "The first Jewish prophet wouldn't write"
        who said first Jewish prophet was writing?!

        "the first Jewish king wouldn't reign for another 400 "
        some one asked this question (meaning of ملوک (King) in this verse) from prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and prophet replied:
        "n children of Israel when some one had wife and servant and roadster was called ملک (King)."

        ملک is not necessarily king of country. its general
        please read this:
        http://goo.gl/Q8w7d

        "If Christians want to know what Moses said, they read the Torah."
        also Muslims. but not deviated Torah.
        and please note each prophet knows the exact original version of all books before himself word by word. we prefer to learn Torah from Muhammad (PBUH) while still we read and research on today Torah (partially deviated) but we not accept anything written in today partially deviated Torah.

        "The best SR can do is say that the Bible is not the real Bible, the real one would have the same message as the Qur'an, once again all independent information points to that position being false."
        please do not misquote me before I speak. if you have such ability to understand people before they talk so why you are here on TED?!
        the best I can say is:
        if you do ENOUGH research on Bible and Torah you will find.
        SEEKER IS FINDER.
        but who blindly follow a liar writer who is enemy of Islam and Koran it is not called SEEKING.

        "You have done nothing to convince me that Allah is an all knowing God who created the universe."
        this is not simple and needs your interest and research but has very very delusions fruits.

        "All languages can be translated so stop hiding from the truth."
        when you can simple check in internet or arabic dics or ask an Arab friend of specialist why we should give you false information about Arabic language?
        if so this is best way to disprove us.
        Arabic language is not secret military information that you can not access.
        • Jul 18 2011: SR -
          Me: "If Christians want to know what Moses said, they read the Torah."

          You: "also Muslims. but not deviated Torah.
          and please note each prophet knows the exact original version of all books before himself word by word. we prefer to learn Torah from Muhammad (PBUH) while still we read and research on today Torah (partially deviated) but we not accept anything written in today partially deviated Torah."

          Please point me to a copy of the un-deviated Torah. The Septaugint was translated from Hebrew into Greek around 250 B.C. The Dead Seas Scrolls are from a similar time. What book do you suppose Jesus had and referred to in 30 AD. When he quotes something from the Torah and we go to the manuscripts of his time we find that quote. These Torahs could not have been changed in 150 AD as you suggest since they were written before that and we still have them today.

          SR - the conspiracy required to wipe out and alter all written material (which clearly didn't happen, Re: Septaugint, Dead Sea Scrolls) and all artifacts and monuments from all civilizations etc. and replace all traces of the Islamic religion which was supposed to have been prevalent since the time of Noah, is impossible, and obviously didn't happen.
      • Jul 20 2011: Dear Elam,
        "that is going to drag us into Hell and torture us there if we don't follow his instructions."
        yes who know God but disobey him.

        "Most Christians believe, I think, that God dwells inside us"
        Heart (soul) of human is potentially home of God. But only enter pure clean home. (no evil in the heart)

        "If God is omniscient and created all the world then God is not a being separate from us."
        Yes but God is not material.
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/50:16

        "God's creation is part of this omniscient God."
        part is for material and limited think. Unlimited has no part.
        http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/1.htm

        "If all the world was created, it could only have been done through positive energy"
        what is positive energy? Energy is defined as ability of doing work. Define positive energy please.
        I can not understand your scenario about Love.

        "God as being a good representative of Love"
        God is not representative of anything . But attributes of God are representative of God. Why God should be responsible to Love?

        "Jesus brought a message of Love"
        All messengers bring message of God which includes different things including "who love God, God love him"

        "always Muslims fighting non Muslims. "
        Disagree.
        Example:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
        You do not understand Islam fights who. Not non muslims.

        "Qurayza people, or the people of Kaybar (who were just minding their own business)"
        You do not know history and you are doing prejudice. Jews were free but themselves started the war. It was not for their religion. Please first study history. Not any jew is good. Also jew can have legal crime.
        Many jews lived with prophet in peace. Only some had problems (not for religion but political)

        "Tell me how Muslim bandits attacking and robbing the merchant caravans of the Quraysh"
        Muslims were isolated and under sanction out of city by Arab Kings and even did not have food. If they did not attack they died for food.

        You do not know what Is Love. God itself is not Love.
        • Jul 23 2011: SR - Me: "Most Christians believe, I think, that God dwells inside us"

          You: "Heart (soul) of human is potentially home of God. But only enter pure clean home. (no evil in the heart)" Who do you know that is perfect, totally pure with no bad in them?

          Me: "If God is omniscient and created all the world then God is not a being separate from us."
          You: "Yes but God is not material. http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/1.htm " Agreed. Nice link BTW, beautifully said except the propensity of Allah to claim that he put rocks/mountains on the earth to stabilize it seems out of place.

          Positive energy; I'm going with that which produces or is intended to produce good. What is good? That which benefits everything and everyone.

          I don't see why God needs us to love him/her in order for him/her to love us. It makes sense that God would love us despite out faults, and that it is not conditional on our loving him. God does not need our love, it is us that needs his love, which we can only get if it is available. If he holds out on us until we love him first, it is not a very good plan for our salvation.

          You, "God is not representative of anything" I disagree, God is representative of everything, it is all his.

          you say, "Why God should be responsible to Love? " Well as above, it is our only hope of salvation. Love is the only thing that could solve all human problems. Is God's hatred or indifference going to bring about our salvation? Likewise solve our problems with hatred or indifference?

          Me; "always Muslims fighting non Muslims. "
          You: "Disagree.
          Example:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews " Okay, sorry. Not well spoken by me.

          you: "You do not know history and you are doing prejudice. Jews were free but themselves started the war." Please show me a Hadith or historical account that shows the Jews struck the first blow had an army or were even remotely interested in fighting the Muslims in either Qurayza or Khaybar.
      • Jul 20 2011: You do not know what Is Love. God itself is not Love. But God created Love.

        "That's why I believe the Jewish version of events"
        Please do not have dogma and first study Islam correct and then decide.

        "At this point I see Islam as the poorest of all attempts to define spiritual reality. "
        You have a false Image of Islam from propaganda of enemies of Islam.

        "The Bible does not claim to be the exact word of God, other than the (10) commandments given to Moses."
        correct. we call them Torah. What about Jesus (PBUH)? What he was given? We call what he was given Bible but not available today.


        "The Bible was written by Jewish scribes depicting their history as it happened along with some inspirational insights into their God and his involvement in the events. They provided prophesies etc."
        Agree and then distributed trough church. But this not mean Jesus (PBUH) himself not given anything from God.

        "Muhammad changed the Judeo/Christian scriptures, piece of cake"
        This is wrong and impossible. Muhammad was uneducated and not wrote anything in his life.
        If you read history of Islam well you understand. What you say mostly is similar to propaganda and is not your own research.

        "The Qur'an is not flawless. "
        Prove one.

        "Forget the Bible, forget the Qur'an. "
        Then what if Hell existed after our death? Can you save from Hell?

        "How can Muhammad's version be true, and everyone else, including those who have no stake in the matter, be false? "
        This is your Image. More research more similar.

        Open your mind, stop being so fixated on the perspective given to you only through the Jewish and freemasonry world.

        "This is a serious invitation."
        Much thanks. I consider it but I can not now. I have good Iranian friends in Vancouver.
        Also I seriously Invite you to Iran and I provide any help to you while you are here.


        "But the acceptable logic is that which complies with the Qur'an"
        The fact is that Koran is fact not fact is Koran. We accept proof and evidence not propaganda.

        "
        • Jul 23 2011: SR -
          you say, "What about Jesus (PBUH)? What he was given? We call what he was given Bible but not available today. " Jesus was not given anything in terms of a message. He claimed to be the son of God and therefore God, bringing us the message of God right from the horses mouth. This was considered blasphemy, hence he was put on trial and crucified. He said a bunch of interesting things while he was here. Ever read them? Don't bother trying to get it from Islamic sources, they will be prejudiced, they know nothing about Jesus.

          Me: "The Qur'an is not flawless. "
          You: "Prove one." Many of the Qur'an's mistakes have been pointed out to you. No point, you won't accept the truth or valid reasoning.

          You keep accusing me of being influenced by propaganda. You too are influenced by propaganda. Everyone is. We look for truth but must first find our way out of our influences and education. Is there other ways of looking at it? I think so. It's too bad we have a different view of God but this in not a requirement of our friendship as far as I'm concerned. So maybe some day we will meet and 'the clear light in me will see the clear light in you' and we will be friends knowing that we want to do good and we simply enjoy each other. Nemaste.
      • Jul 20 2011: "But it is 100% different than what Jesus had to say"
        Did you directly heard what he said?

        "You're suggesting a complete change of spiritual concepts. "
        no I study bible and many parts of Bible is like Koran. But some important parts is removed from bible.

        "This is not possible if Yahweh and Allah are the same God."
        You know little and you are at start of way. You should research until end of your life. Seeker is finder. Leave what you hear and yourself research.

        ". I like it better than the Qur'an"
        What God likes is better.
        Yes all love and not working is good and all like it. Who hate it? But no pain no gain. What God want is important not what you like. People like to be lazy and have easiest way.

        "that Jewish scribes purposely altered the whole of their scriptures just to foil him. "
        Sorry what means?

        "And again Muhammad refers to the Torah"
        by Torah Koran means what only Moses (PBUH) was given and today is not easily found. Jews hide original version from people.

        "If Jesus was the Messiah, then he is God, and Allah is not."
        do you know the meaning of messiah?
        Messiah is not God. This word literally is related to "touch" and has special meaning and is name (attribute) of Jesus (PBUH) in Koran.

        "Please point me to a copy of the un-deviated Torah."
        in the today torah there is story of after death of Moses (PBUH). So this is one evidence it is not from Moses (PBUH) himself and is writer later.
        We accept only parts of scripture not conflicting Koran. Original bible perhaps can be found today but I am sure it is not easy. I can not show you today the original version of Torah. This is one reason God sent Koran.
        We do not rejects some parts of Torah only for conflicting Koran. Also some parts conflict with logic and rational think.

        I said 150 AD only for Bible. Not Torah.

        "the conspiracy required to wipe out and alter all written material (which clearly didn't happen"
        Not wipe out. But revisioning.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_%28neg
      • Jul 20 2011: "the conspiracy required to wipe out and alter all written material (which clearly didn't happen"
        Not wipe out. But revisioning.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_%28negationism%29

        "is impossible, and obviously didn't happen."
        It is relative. Not 100% impossible and not 100% possible.
        Also not obvious. Perhaps obvious for people who only use TV and popular media for learning and not go to library.


        Dear Elam,
        I respect your Interest and research in religion.
        this is your professional job of your personal interest?
      • Jul 20 2011: "Jesus said, "except that you become as a child, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." "
        please do not interpret sayings of Jesus (PBUH) without enough proof.
        It means the relation of you and God should be relation of a child and father. A child accept anything from father and obey father. It means you should not be proud against God. A child know his food and cloth and life and everything is from his father so respect his father.

        This is not about message of God. This is about how to behave to God.
        Please read the next verses of it.


        "I do understand its basic principles enough to decide to follow it if I thought it was on the right path."
        You even do not know its basics. You have misunderstanding of Islam. And I am sure you are heavily influenced from propaganda against Islam.

        "Especially if Islam existed throughout the time between Abraham and after Jesus to 150 AD."
        if Islam says all prophets had religion of Islam. It not means this ARABIC name should be found in past religions. Islam is by meaning. Not by name. Islam is arabic name and means obeying and submission to God. This is the core concept of All religions of God. But developed by sending new prophets and people who love world always deviated sayings of prophets. Because prophets are the highest danger for who use peoples are customers (in fact slaves) for their companies. And this is story of all history not only today. But they could not deviated Koran because God guaranteed protection of Koran.
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/15:9
      • Jul 23 2011: Dear Elam,
        "Who do you know that is perfect, totally pure with no bad in them?"
        Who obey God in all aspects of life and thinks.

        "Positive energy; I'm going with that which produces or is intended to produce good. "
        It is wisdom which is inside any human. Please note. Wisdom=ability of controlling "self" and not doing what "self " wants. Wisdom=ability of accepting advice. Wisdom= controlling self and not doing evil deeds and thinks.
        Also more knowledge makes wisdom more powerful.
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/2353/what_is_wisdom_and_can_wisdom.html
        Knowledge is base of wisdom. By wisdom human controls himself.
        Animals do not have wisdom.

        "What is good?"
        Good is relative. For example some say homosexual is good and some say evil.
        But in Islam obeying God is good and disobeying God is evil. God created each good/evil according to one of his attributes to using them God can be known. Knowledge is good and not knowing is bad. So with knowledge we know one attribute of God that God is absolute knowledge. Power is good and weak is bad so when we power that made universe we know the power of God and so on.

        "I don't see why God needs us to love him/her in order for him/her to love us."
        Love is for knowing God. Love of God is different of Love of human. Love of God means nearing God and knowing him and removing curtains between human and God and step by step meeting God.

        "God does not need our love'
        Yes. God not need anything unless is not God. But God Intended to be known and love is needed to human know God. God loves human and human loved God. No love no knowing God. First you should love something to start knowing it.

        "it is us that needs his love, which we can only get if it is available. '
        Agree.

        "If he holds out on us until we love him first, it is not a very good plan for our salvation."
        First God loved human by creating human and creating all inside the universe for human and sending prophets for guide of human. This is not enough for proving God loves huma
      • Jul 23 2011: "If he holds out on us until we love him first, it is not a very good plan for our salvation."
        First God loved human by creating human and creating all inside the universe for human and sending prophets for guide of human. This is not enough for proving God loves human?

        "You, "God is not representative of anything" I disagree, God is representative of everything, it is all his. "
        Yes God all the nature and universe is face of God. And we can know God by nature. But that saying can have some wrong interpret.

        "Love is the only thing that could solve all human problems."
        Agree. By loving God, we become like God and get power from God. But I disagree God itself is Love. God created Love but itself is not Love.
        Also:
        http://tanzil.net/#22:47
        God is not responsible to anyone "But Allah will never fail in His promise."

        Real problem of human is after death. Human never dies. Only change body. Human is soul mainly. Not body.

        "Okay, sorry. Not well spoken by me."
        I love your honesty and fair talk. You are different of others.

        "Please show me a Hadith or historical account that shows the Jews struck the first blow had an army or were even remotely interested in fighting the Muslims in either Qurayza or Khaybar."
        Please read this and if you needed more western reference let me know.
        http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/29.htm
        Please note:
        1- Untill death of prophet many Jews were living in city of prophet (Medina) with peace and there was no problem between jews and Muslims. Even a wonam Jew gave a poison food to prophet that it was the cause of death of prophet later. Prophet asked her why you did this: she said: I said myself if he is prophet of God the poison not kill him and if is fake prophet better to be killed. Prophet smiled and forgiven her. Many Jews were living with Muslims in peace.

        2- The Jews Khaybar had a peace contract with Muslims but Jews did not respected that contract and it was the cause of war.
      • Jul 23 2011: Dear Elam,
        "Jesus was not given anything in terms of a message. "
        Disagree. He received. Even if not available later. What is your proof?
        If can not prove at least not deny and say perhaps.

        "He claimed to be the son of God "
        He did not claim so. And even if did it is metaphor and should not be taken literally.

        "and therefore God"
        He never claimed this. Please show your proof and evidence.

        "bringing us the message of God right from the horses mouth. "
        Oh my God! The angel Gabriel is for revelation. Why horses? Please show evidence. Perhaps you are misquoting.

        "This was considered blasphemy, hence he was put on trial and crucified."
        Please watch this movie:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Messiah_%28Iranian_film%29

        Yes. I hear from here:
        http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/audio/?source=4&aid=28

        "they know nothing about Jesus."
        not be sure. Knowledge of prophet is from God.

        "Many of the Qur'an's mistakes have been pointed out to you. No point, you won't accept the truth or valid reasoning. "
        To be honest they had not enough proof.

        "You too are influenced by propaganda."
        I accept. Please explain me to know truth.

        'Is there other ways of looking at it?"
        The only way is research and research and research.
        Prophet Muhammad (PBUH):
        "seek knowledge from cradle to grave"

        "So maybe some day we will meet and 'the clear light in me will see the clear light in you' and we will be friends knowing that we want to do good and we simply enjoy each other. Nemaste."
        perhaps. if death let us and God wanted it. [God gets angry when some one tell: "I will do this in future" and do not say "if God wanted"]
        Also Internet can play the role.
        Also you are invited to Iran.
  • Jun 28 2011: Dear Jim moonan,
    "First, to forego thinking and expressing your own thoughts is a terrible waste of a gift. Second, to not express your own thoughts is to deny yourself free will. Where's the truth in that?"
    When I said them?

    "Rational thought? You claim that Islam is an expression of rational thought? How did Muhammad write the Koran? You say it's a miracle? What's rational about a miracle? It's not rational thought you are exercising, it's circular reasoning."
    what is your problem.
    Please be clear.
    What circular reasoning you mean?
    Its your prejudice.
    If some one uses Koran as an accepted base are you sure he have not had enough research about Koran before?
  • Jun 28 2011: Dear Elam,
    "The interesting thing here is that it was not me who said they were kept pure, or changed. It was Allah and Muhammad. "
    perhaps you are not liar. I do not know you. you are quoting from Intentionally false and biased references. If you quote with no think and research and with no checking the Koran yourself then you are partner of a liar.
    Please note when Koran Bible or Torah it means the original book of time of related prophet. Not deviated versions of today . Please leave your links and show researches of yourself.
    "There is no reason for Islam if the Judaeo scriptures were not perverted. "
    Original scriptures say Islam prophet clear.

    Please note Allah is Arabic language. And no need to exactly Allah be mentioned in Torah.

    "You say the dead sea scrolls prove nothing. I disagree. "
    do not misquote me. I say:
    the oldest scriptures available today are still written many years after prophet.
    Oldest torah is for at least 2000 years after Moses (PBUH).

    if you really want to research Islam use valid references like:
    www.al-islam.org
    www.makarem.ir

    not use references of enemies of Islam.
    • Jun 29 2011: SR - I gave you 4 quotes I think from the Qur'an on a different post that said the previous scriptures were revealed by Allah and kept pure etc. then i showed you one that said they had been corrupted although I know there is at least one more.

      my statement is "There is no reason for Islam if the Judaeo scriptures were not perverted. " It is true and you know it so just say 'agreed' and let's move on.

      I think your exact quote was, "the dead sea scrolls are insignificant". I still disagree.

      you say, "the oldest scriptures available today are still written many years after prophet.
      Oldest torah is for at least 2000 years after Moses (PBUH)."

      Not true. I have dealt with this on another post as well. Moses lived 1200 AD. Dead Sea Scrolls date from 250 BC to 70 AD. So more like 1000 years. Muhammad lived 570 - 632 AD. So again you are factually wrong. And there is really no other kind of wrong to be.

      If you really want to learn about Moses, read the Bible it was written by his people. It is chronological set in the context of history and told in the minutest detail. It is an amazing story which could only have been told by the people that were there. It will blow you away. The versions in the Qur'an are pathetic. Allah doesn't seem to know what he is talking about.

      I'm serious, read the biblical account and you will find the jumble of tales in the Qur'an are totally deficient.

      Do not be afraid. Read it.
      • Jun 29 2011: "I gave you 4 quotes I think from the Qur'an "
        1- I mean yourself check the quoted text in Koran. your refs intentionally cut parts or change translate of Koran for sophistication. I ask you check them from here:
        quran.al-islam.org
        then copy here translate of them from above link (not your reference) then I reply claims.(if God wanted)

        "and kept pure"
        you mean Koran says that previous scriptures are kept pure even today?
        please show verse number and yourself check it from quran.al-islam.org

        "my statement is "There is no reason for Islam if the Judaeo scriptures were not perverted. ""
        yes IF. you know this IF is not true today. so how you are telling something unreal?
        IF sky is not blue then I am bill gates.
        the truth is that previous scriptures are deviated by enemies of Islam and God.

        "I think your exact quote was, "the dead sea scrolls are insignificant". I still disagree."
        I say they are significant but not 100% true. because they were deviated many years ago. bible was deviated right when Jesus (PBUH) became hidden.

        what you mean by 1200 AD?!
        what is your evidence for the latest book of Moses (PBUH) available today?
        how many books God sent to Moses (PBUH)
        the 30 days death funeral of Moses (PBUH) (detailed story of 30 days after his dead) are recorded in old testimonies. it shows they are writtern by people after death of Moses (PBUH). also many other proofs exist they are deviated and not original.
        also how many books God sent to Moses (PBUH)? only 1 book of Torah? or 39 books written by liars?
        http://tanzil.net/#2:79

        there are many many proofs that Koran text of today is exactly words existed from mouth of prophet. if you are really ready to research it I can help you.

        "If you really want to learn about Moses, read the Bible"
        which version of Bible? which is more truth?
        also Koran has many information about Moses (PBUH)

        "Do not be afraid. Read it. "
        which version?
        I not afraid. they are deviated.
        until year 170 people had no bible then church made.
  • Comment deleted

    • Jun 28 2011: Momitur Rahman,

      I am very sorry if I upset you. I do not mean any harm. I do not consider myself and atheist, just a truth seeker and for me that means opening up to all possibilities. This is not easy. As you can see I am very resistant to Islam's doctrine but that does not mean I am against anyone who believes in it.

      Truly there are a lot of great people from every walk of life. I respect and am actually beginning to like SR Ahmadi and J Ali who have engaged me in some spirited discussion on this matter.

      The topic here is "proving the Qur'an". If we all thought it was the truth there would be nothing to talk about except congratulating ourselves on our common perspective.

      Quite frankly I am blown away by what the Islamic scriptures say about their prophet. To me it seems unbelievable how readily they condemn him.

      I've listened to Lesley Hazleton's talk a dozen times now and read the transcript carefully. And I believe it obfuscates the truth. Should I believe what she says just because she is being conciliatory to the religion? I am bringing forth a number of quotes that at least appear to shed a different light on the subject.

      Please, I don't hate anybody and i may disagree with Islam's doctrine but I do not condemn anyone who believes it.
      • Jun 28 2011: ''what the Islamic scriptures say about their prophet.''

        The Prophet had many enemies even after his death.......that is why you find many hadeeths which are very false which were made up by Jews and Christians who hated Islam like Kab Al Ahbar.......you cannot just keep looking at Hadiths and then judging Islam by them, even when they are false......
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      Jun 28 2011: Momitur Rahman If you are an atheist then I presume you do not believe in Allah, or Mohammad or the Quran? Can you tell us can why you have become an atheist and why you disagree with Islam's doctrine?

      I think you are misreading Elam, he is not condemning those who believe in Islam. There is no hate there. The argument here is only about proving the Quran (that it is from God). Naturally if it is not from God, then all its claims about Allah, Islam and Muhammad are false.

      I have listened to both sides of the arguments and I feel that Elam has a point.

      Although I'm an agnostic, I have read the Bible and know about it more than the Quran. One thing I know there is no mention of Muhammad, or Islam in the Bible ( the Bible includes the Jewish scriptures).

      J Ali pointed to a site which claimed to show Muhammad in the Bible. I have had a look at that and all the verses it claims mentions Muhammad - none of them do.
      Genesis 21:13 says "I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring" but no prophets come from that line. Nor can it be said that all Arabs are descended from Ishmael like Jews claim they are from Isaac. Ishmael married an Egyptian I think and Abraham himself was from Ur in Mesopotamia.

      Here is a map of his journeys: http://www.drshirley.org/geog/geog05.html all far far away from Mecca. According to the Bible Abraham never was in Mecca, the name never appears in the Bible. Paran is not Mecca nor is Baca, a place near Jerusalem.

      The only prophet those passages mention are Deuteronomy 18:15 which mentions it will be from "your fellow Israelites" Nor does the name Muhammad ever occur in the Bible.

      Its also interesting that J Ali pointed to the oldest complete Bible discovered, which is much older than Muhammad or Islam. Its online and also contains an Epistle of Barnabas. (Not to be confused by the Gospel of Barnabas, which SR keeps referring to, fabricated during the Ottomans). He accepts the divinity of Christ.
      • Jun 28 2011: ''I have listened to both sides of the arguments and I feel that Elam has a point.''

        Changing the verses, interpreting them while he writes them, not knowing how obviously wrong what he is trying to claim is and then when we explain it to him because of his poor understanding of Arabic he refuses to accept.........and then he starts throwing claims in the air...

        ''Here is a map of his journeys''

        the map is based on what the Bible says.....we believe what the Quran says.

        And Richard, if you want I could get a former atheist Muslim convert here to tell us why he converted.....we are not here to do that....

        As for Mohammed (peace be upon him) in the Bible, Muslims will be claiming he is mentioned, while Christians and atheists etc will be claiming not.....no point in arguing it anyway....

        One important thing to mention is that there were Christians and Jews at the time of Mohammed (peace and blessings be upon him) and many converted to Islam and none questioned what Mohammed claimed about the Bible and Torah......if they had claimed such a thing against him then it would have been mentioned and it would have become very famous between the people in Makkah who hated Mohammed (peace and blessings be upon him)......
        • Jun 29 2011: J Ali -

          you say - ""There is no chance men would have been convicted or exonerated in an Islamic court without referencing the most appropriate Hadith unless they simply didn't exist at the time. "
          agree. such stupid and ignorant Muslims are not few. But this not prove all hadith are fake."

          You must read your own scriptures. When you look into the Hadith one finds that they converted rather than losing their heads or being forced to pay the Jizah tax which is far more onerous than the Zakat for Muslims.

          Looking closely I find that Islam was spread by the sword, not reason. Any one who spoke out against the prophet once he was in power was killed. Just like any other tyrannical dictator ship.
        • Jun 29 2011: "Looking closely I find that Islam was spread by the sword,"
          this is from blind people who can not see facts of Islam.
          this is temporarily and people are not stupid.
          why today European people are becoming Muslim? they are under sword?
          Islam spreads rational.
          sword can work only in short time.
      • Jun 29 2011: Elam, I think you quoted the wrong guy....
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    Jun 27 2011: The following numbers correspond to S.R.'s "facts"about the Koran:
    1.Any science that is in the Koran is most likely borrowed from the scientific views of the time. The scientific views of the time were taken directly from the Greeks. And it isn't surprising that Islam differs from other religions of its time, just as Christianity and Judaism did when they first got rolling.

    2. No, it talked about the sun going into the mud.

    3. That's quite the stretch from what the Koran actually says. Any "end of the world" scenario could point to the destruction of the sun, so this does not speak to any truth of the matter.

    4. So does the bible and many other books.

    5. The sun isn't running and it has no destination.

    6. The old testament has been around for even longer and people still believe in it... even Muslims.

    7.No it does not. Skeletal growth occurs after much of the soft exterior tissue.

    8. And all three religions of Abraham say Jerusalem is a holy land, so what?

    9. Example:
    a) "Those who believe [in the Qur.an], and those who follow the Jewish [Scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any one who believe in God and the last day, and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Sura 2:62).

    b) "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam [Submission to God] he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritual good" (Sura 3:85)

    10. And the Romans wanted to get rid of christians and everyone wanted to get rid of the jews. Guess who is still around today...

    11. Refer to #7
    • Jun 28 2011: welcome new Koran researcher!
      "1.Any science that is in the Koran is most likely borrowed from the scientific views of the time. "
      do you know the science of that time?specially in Arabia. they are joke for today.
      you know is 14000 years later. stop claims and show one error with rigid error with research of yourself not copying with no research.

      "2. No, it talked about the sun going into the mud."
      its address of a place and Koran said "found it setting ..." means apparently set in mud..

      "3. That's quite the stretch from what the Koran actually says. Any "end of the world" scenario could point to the destruction of the sun, so this does not speak to any truth of the matter. "
      why it not made story in other way? anyway Koran said sun will turn off one day. also it said turning off. not destroying sun.

      "4. So does the bible and many other books."
      yes but they are mix of true and false. many versions of bible!
      Koran is 100% truth. any error with proof?

      "5. The sun isn't running and it has no destination."
      haha! its moving read astronomy.

      I resume reading rest of your comments.
      first only proof one thing then
  • Jun 27 2011: [cont.]Dear Elam,
    "Yet, there isn't even a scrap from that period. "
    I am very sorry for you. Many exist in museums. Even the letters of prophet himself exist today. There is no doubt in Koran text.

    "Christianity can claim more than 5,500 known Greek fragments and manuscripts of the Renewed Covenant, 10,000 Latin Vulgates and at least 9,500 other early versions, adding up to 25,000 Renewed Covenant sources still in existence"
    Yes but made by man and by church. Not from God.

    "Islam cannot provide a single manuscript until well into the eighth century"
    Claiming is easy!

    "why Muslims were unable to forward a single manuscript from this much later period? "
    Muslims are able. real truth seeker can not be found. All only repeat such lies.

    "I do appreciate the information with regards to the difference between Sunni and Shia interpretation of Bukhari. I didn't know that."
    Its not related Bukhari. Its only a collection like many other.
    Please read:
    http://www.al-islam.org/index.php?sid=255289765&t=74&cat=74


    "Just because you say it, even if 1.5 billion people ( Muslims) say it, it doesn't make it true. "
    Agree. It only says only one version of TEXT of Koran exist. Not like Bible that has many versions in TEXT. The truth has other proves.

    'So far neither you or SR have refuted the errant statements in Qur'an 3:67 or 5:20, and your rebuttal of 20:70 fails to address the non existent prophets that Moses referred to."
    Have you yourself read them directly from Koran? Or only copy with no research?

    "While we are at it. Where is the Jewish holy land that the Qur'an refers to in 5:21?"
    Koran says God said to children of israel go to Jurshalim. So what? It means that land is for them for ever? God said only for that time.
    • Jun 28 2011: SR - Yes, I have read the Qur'an and studied it in detail. I have also read and studied the Bible in detail (something I can tell you haven't done) as well as some other religions.

      Meanwhile you still haven't explained to me what you think the meaning of 3:67 or 5:20 is or the prophet issue in 20:70.

      you say, "Koran says God said to children of israel go to Jurshalim. So what? It means that land is for them for ever? God said only for that time."

      What verse in the Qur'an indicates this was only temporary? If you come up with one it will only prove that the God of the Qur'an and the God of the Bible are not the same. I am looking forward to your response ( or J Ali's) to the fact that the Dead Seas Scrolls prove the Torah has not changed and that Muhammad or Ahmed is not predicted in it like he claims.

      In another post you say, ""On them we find Yahweh's name written 6,868 times"
      yes. Allah is Yahweh in Arabic language." Camel dung! You may substitute the name Allah for God but it is not Yahweh. Yahweh and Allah are completely different Gods. The Qur'an came after and the Judeo scriptures which have not changed.

      I'm not going to buy it when someone comes along and says that everything that went before is not true and his entirely different message is true when he can't provide any proof what so ever. In fact the deper I look the less sense Islam makes.

      Muhammad was always dogged by the fact that he had no proof. When the Meccans probed him for an answer he eventually got frustrated and had this to say:

      Qur'an 69:43 "This is a Message sent down from the Lord of men and jinn. And if the Messenger were to attribute any false words to Us, We would seize him and cut his aorta. None of you would be able to stop Us. So truly this is a Message for those who fear...

      Wow! I believe in Santa Clause and since he hasn't seized me and cut my aorta that must mean that he is God too! This is not proof, this is just plain stupid.
      • Jun 28 2011: "I have read the Qur'an and studied it in detail."
        according you your comments I am 100% sure your knowledge from Koran is from biased and false references and your Image about Koran is false.
        I am sure you yourself have not researched Koran and very bad references you use.
        your comments are shouting your references have source in lies of Zionists and anti-Islam missionary writers the are students of Satan. they are who controlled church to destroy original Christianity and deviated Bible and now are trying to destroy Islam. when they can not kill Muslims and can not deviate Koran spread lies.

        I do not know you.
        but if you are really seeking truth I strongly recommend you reconsider about the references feeding your mind.
        • Jun 29 2011: SR- I think your image about Koran is false. I don't think you are willing to read what it really says, approaching it with an open mind. I think you have preconceived notions or have learned it without questioning it. You are following the doctrine of what you have been told and using all the excuses that you have been taught to explain away what your scriptures really say.

          You are a good guy. You see the questions and struggles I have with it. The hard copy I have in my hand is: 'A new translation by M.A.S Abdel Haleem, Oxford world's classics, published by the 'Oxford University Press and I use other on line translations.

          You couldn't possibly read the Qur'an and not be touched by how much threatening and fear mongering is going on there. Allah does not treat his creation very nice and he does not use sound reasoning.

          The Hadith do not portray a favorable picture of Muhammad and his ministry either. But that discussion would be off topic.
      • Jun 29 2011: Dear Elam,
        you are coping from that oxford Koran?

        also I said your "knowledge" of Koran. not your translation of Koran.
    • Jun 28 2011: SR- Thanks for the link. Lots to read here when i get time.
      • Jun 28 2011: you welcome.
        I will be happy if any one ask me any question.
        asking is hardest work people can not do.
        asking is price of truth.
        but proud people never can ask questions.
        human is like a tree with fruits of knowledge.
        how much knowledge is more the head of human comes more dawn. (courtesy )
        the head of trees with no fruit is up. (proud)
        asking is sign of knowledge.
        people are 2 category:
        1- who do not know and do not know that do not know
        2- who do not know but know that do not know

        I think you are from second category.
        also I hope to move myself from 1 to 2
  • Jun 27 2011: [cont.]Dear Elam,
    Each saying should be checked first then used. They collected sayings to they not be destroyed. They had not enough time to both collect and check validity well. They left the checking validity for next researchers. They only tried to protect sayings from destroying in history.

    "For example, the Qur'an refers to three daily prayers (surahs 11:114, 17:78, 30:17). "
    No Koran says five. If interested I explain. But you can simply find it by search.


    "But God should have a consistent message if he is telling the truth."
    The original versions are consistent. But man made scriptures not.
    http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/20:60

    "SR - Why do you deny what the Qur'an and Hadith say? '
    This is false. Prove it. Only show verse number and refer to valid and checked Hadith not error Hadith.

    "I've already quoted you the passages that say the Qur'an was memorized in different ways,"
    Do not misqute me. Koran was memorized by at least 500 known companions. Same text and same meaning. But different reading and accent.

    "so therefore is can not possibly be letter for letter the word of God. "
    all memorizers of Koran never had conflict about text or words of Koran. Only in different readings and pronunciations in some few cases. (small signs under and above words of Koran).

    "When you can't answer one of my questions"
    Check other treads.

    "Proof, verse?"
    i should refer you to Arabic historical references. Are you serious to research them?
    also please search in www.al-islam.org about that. If you really interested I should work and prepare you a list of proofs. But I need a serious truth seeker then I am his free assistant.

    "As we both know if Ali wrote anything down there is no surviving evidence of it. "
    Why?
    The Koran from that time wrote on animal skins are aviable today. Come Iran I show you some in museum. Like:
    http://www.imamreza.net/eng/gallery/index.php?pic=94
    http://www.imamreza.net/eng/gallery/index.php?pic=93
    [cont.]
    • Jun 28 2011: SR- you say, ""But God should have a consistent message if he is telling the truth."
      The original versions are consistent. But man made scriptures not."

      Many people have given you contradictory verses from the Qur'an in these discussions.

      There is even a verse in the Qur'an to deal with it. Qur'an 2:106 "When we cancel a Verse or throw it into oblivion, We replace it with a better one." Or: "Whatever Revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We substitute something better." In the context of God, this is senseless.

      Allah wants us to believe that the creator of the universe, is capricious and unreliable, changing his mind by canceling prior truths and changing his divine revelations. If God can't get it right the first time then perhaps he isn't God.

      You continually say that there were 500 people who immediately memorized the surahs as soon as they were revealed to Muhammad. Not true.

      Eight years into the prophet's mission we have this:
      Tabari VI:98 "The situation deteriorated, hostility became bitter, and people withdrew from one another, displaying open hatred, the Meccan chiefs conspired to seduce their sons, brothers, and clansmen away from the new religion. It was a trial which severely shook the Muslims who had followed the Prophet. Some were seduced. The MAIN BODY went to Abyssinia because of the coercion they were being subjected to in Mecca. His fear was that they would be seduced from their religion." "There is a difference of opinion as to the number of those who emigrated in stealth and secret. Some say there were eleven men and four women. ...Ibn Ishaq claims there were ten."

      This says that the "main body" was only 15 people. I'm not sure how many surahs had been revealed by this time but it was more than 25.

      BTW, thanks for the invitation to come to Iran and have you show me through some of the museums. That would be truly amazing! For now I will pass, but you never know where life will lead.
      • Jun 28 2011: ''Allah wants us to believe that the creator of the universe, is capricious and unreliable, changing his mind by canceling prior truths and changing his divine revelations. If God can't get it right the first time then perhaps he isn't God.''


        ''Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?''

        2:106

        ''The Jews say: "(Allah)'s hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter.......''

        5:64

        Naskh is when a law mentioned in a verse is changed with the end of its time by another verse......

        What Jews and Christians would say is that that is impossible as it would make God not all-knowing.....

        What we respond to it is that the first law is for a special time and place when the second law comes, it then is the law....because of time change........

        for example: In Makkah, Muslims were not allowed to defend themselves against the Meccans who were oppressing them.......because if they did, they would have been terminated......

        When they made the Hijra to Medina and they gained strength, then the verse came down as naskh to the previous verses in Makkah, they were now allowed to defend themselves and fight the unbelievers....
        • Jun 29 2011: J Ali - there are so many statements in the Qur'an you need to explain how they have a different meaning then what they say. It must be tough for Muslims. See my posts below to SR.

          You give the example that it changes because the strategy of Muhammad and his Muslim followers changed as it did between when they were strong enough to fight the Meccans and when they were not. And that is the reason for God changing a verse of his divine revelation. Wow, that sounds like situational scripture to me. Well, Muhammad did say "war is deceit".
        • Jun 29 2011: "there are so many statements in the Qur'an you need to explain how they have a different meaning then what they say. It must be tough for Muslims."
          there is nothing tough in Koran.
          please ask any question from Koran.
          but please do not copy here what you are not sure and only see in any invalid link.
          first yourself research then if was true then research.

          DISTANCE OF TRUTH AND LIE IS 4 FINGER
      • Jun 28 2011: Dear Elam,
        "Many people have given you contradictory verses from the Qur'an in these discussions. "
        they are apparently contradict. which have a rigid proof?
        also did not you see my replies.
        can you show one contradictions with a rigid proof?
        please do not throw me tons of lies about Koran to me and then say :" I have proved"
        only show one contradiction with enough proof and wait for reply.

        "There is even a verse in the Qur'an to deal with it. Qur'an 2:106 "When we cancel a Verse or throw it into oblivion, We replace it with a better one.""
        I replied it before please read:
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html

        its not changing mind. its for changing context of society.

        yes at start of Islam few people accepted it. but soon they became thousands.

        please check other treads starting with your name.
        • Jun 29 2011: SR - Why do you not understand what 'abrogate means'? You cannot explain away this verse and say that it does not mean what it says. Your explanations don't hold up. the Qur'an was changed as it was revealed it says so right in the Qur'an.

          In your commentary on "Understanding the Koran" you say, "Koran has two part of verses. some are clear and some are complicated and has more than one possible meaning. this aspect of Koran is always used during history to justify behavior different groups of Muslims. and huge amount of mistranslations, misinterpreting, and false commentary of Koran has published in books"

          Does that sound like 'clear' or 'clear proofs' to you? Scripture is supposed to communicate with us from God. There is no other purpose. What you are saying is the Koran is not very clear. Somewhere else you said it requires a special 'infallible' (fellow human) to tell us the meaning if we want to be sure of the meaning. If so, the Islamic God is not doing a good job of communicating with us, and it is not clear.
      • Jun 29 2011: "SR - Why do you not understand what 'abrogate means'?"
        I Know.
        it means cancelling past command with new contradict command.
        did you read my reply about it here:
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html
        ?
        there are few cases of abrogate in Koran and both old and new command are in Koran.
        its like that a commander says to soldier go ahead and tomorrow says come back.
        it is for change in context.

        "Does that sound like 'clear' or 'clear proofs' to you?"
        Koran clearly replied this question:
        http://tanzil.net/#3:7
        but God clearly said the solution for unclear parts. please my reply to question of "what a man should do in order to understand the Koran?"
        here:
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html

        also about clear message:
        clear message does not mean necessarily whole the Koran.
        http://tanzil.net/#4:174
        http://tanzil.net/#16:82

        "If so, the Islamic God is not doing a good job of communicating with us, and it is not clear."
        why? each of them have lots of accurate and correct commentaries of Koran and other absolute knowledge.
        please read here about Imam sadiq and Geber as a little example.
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/2680/extinction_of_human_being_in_p.html
        for example this book is a highly valuable book form one of those 14:
        http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/
        as a friend I recommend you read it before your death.
        also last of them is alive today.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        unfortunately most of Muslims do not use the great knowledge of The_Fourteen_Infallibles and say only Koran and sunnah is enough.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_the_two_weighty_things
  • thumb
    Jun 26 2011: Dear SR, You are great and Koran is also great. May Koran should forgive all its satans :-)
    • Jun 27 2011: Dear Sri Ramakrishna,
      my evils are more than my goods
  • Jun 26 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
    [cont. from past comment]
    "Satan???? What you call "satan" I call bad decision making."
    Satan is what say you to do evil deeds. bad decision making is a result of obeying Satan. When you are in choice of a good and evil. What say you do the good is your WISDOM which is a messenger of God and what says you to do evil choice is SATAN which is who cheated Adam to eat from banned tree.
    Also Satan can influence your soul and your mind and your brain and your decisions and distinguishing between thinks from God or Satan is not easy. Some times people obey Satan and they think they are obeying God.
    Satan is not story. You can find it in your mind when deciding between a good and a evil. But Satan is not material and can not be seen by eye of head like God and angels.

    "Other than what you read in the Koran, do you know for certainty that there is a heaven and a hell?"
    No. but using my wisdom and research and science and years of research I found Koran and true Islam is truth and so I accepted Hell based on Koran and Koran is based on years of my research.
    All prophets are the same and all are from one God. But people change their religions for their benefits.
  • Jun 26 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
    "
    I watched the video of the preacher who converted to Islam.

    This man's view of religion is an embarrassment!!!
    We here in US see way,…"
    please note it is his past and he has left it.

    "They've shopped around and tried on every religious coat on the rack and then they find one that fits them"
    If a wise human want to find best religion in world what is the method? Is anything other?

    "Then they go out and become religious businessmen who convert and collect money."
    Do you have any evidence he is making money by Islam. Muslim do not have music like west. So who is the customer? There is no music in mosque.
    Please do not say what you do not know about others. Do you like others speak about you with no evidence?

    "Very embarrassing example of human thought and spirit."
    why embarrassing ? because his beliefs are not same as you?

    "Please, if this is your example of who a Muslim is, of what Islam is, keep it far away from me!!!"
    Actually I have a big problem:
    LACK OF ENGLISH INFORMATION.
    And what I show you is best aviable ENGLISH case I KNOW IN ITTERNET. And not necessarily BEST CASE. If you come Iran I can show you better live cases.
    Please search his name "yusuf estes" in YouTube abd watch his other videos. It is not best case I know. But I do know good english sources for video.

    "Yes it is different."
    Is it possible to conflict thing both be truth? Indeed one has problems.

    "Somebody wrote it for him."
    Who? I not mean writer. The source. Writer is like a printer.

    "the only "god" is that immaterial consciousness that allows me to think. "
    Does it have any other attributes?
  • Jun 26 2011: S.R.Ahmadi, what would you like to hear from us, that koran is from god ,that your god and religion is the truth. Thats what you belive and you have that idea to convert smart people into islam. Its just an old book full of mistakes likeand other old religious books,it has some nice massages some bad ones and that all it is. Its a man writen book. For you, we are just infidels ,and thats the real truth here. I mean whats the point of arguing with a believer.
    Now, TED you can delete my post, because i probably offendet some believers
    • Jun 26 2011: Dear Bran Corvus,
      1- my goal is not converting people. it is what Jim Moonan thinks.

      "Its just an old book full of mistakes"
      OK. so prove only one. claim is not proof.

      Koran is far different of other old religions books. please do not see Koran based on your Images.

      'Its a man writen book"
      who wrote it? Muhammad (PBUH) did not wrote anything in his life. he was uneducated.

      "For you, we are just infidels "
      no no no.
      why think so?

      "I mean whats the point of arguing with a believer."
      perhaps a believer has truth.

      "Now, TED you can delete my post, because i probably offendet some believers "
      you did not offend me.
  • Jun 26 2011: "On them we find Yahweh's name written 6,868 times"
    yes. Allah is Yahweh in Arabic language.

    Potato is potato in any language?
    this is simple I do not know why you not understand. A child know it.
    Dear Elam Waltzing ,
    "Mecca, I think we have a problem. "
    Yes agree. Problem is that nonbelievers are controlling it in name of Islam.
    do you think any Arab King in history is true representative of God?
    http://mannam.persiangig.com/11.jpg
    http://shia-news.com/files/fa/news/1389/1/11/4900_542.jpg
  • Jun 26 2011: Dear Elam Waltzing ,
    "There is no chance men would have been convicted or exonerated in an Islamic court without referencing the most appropriate Hadith unless they simply didn't exist at the time. "
    agree. such stupid and ignorant Muslims are not few. But this not prove all hadith are fake. Today hadiths are researched and original and fake hadiths are known very much. But not still 100%


    "SR - You ask for a pic of the Sassanian coin."
    I checked them. I could read some text. They are no Koran. They are some famous Islamic slogans. Also there is a rule in Islam only who has clean body and washed hands should touch Koran. And so Koran text is not used in public places like coin.
    Koran has enough proof. Not need to coin. Only a honest and wise and real truth seeker human is needed.

    "The Qur'an acknowledges that the Bible is ancient history's most detailed and accurate account of a people and their relationship with their Creator."
    when Koran said this? Show verse. Quran.al-islam.org
    Bible in Koran means original bible of Jesus (PBUH).

    "Qur'an claims that Allah inspired the Biblical scriptures and that they were kept pure from corruption. "
    oh my God! Most Your information are false. Show that verse. Koran said both Torah and Bible were deviated by children of Israel.(today they are called Zionist)

    "So, if the Bible has not been changed beyond recognition, the Qur'an is not true. "
    You misquote Koran without showing verse then disprove it. Interesting!

    "Dead Sea scrolls were"
    the Bible was deviated right after disappearance of Jesus (PBUH)
    Dead Sea scrolls are also invalid.

    "the Children of Israel, the Jews, could not have "changed the words from their right places"
    So read Torah. The story of after death of Moses (PBUH) is described detail in them. How is possible?
    http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:79

    One time you say Koran says Torah is unchanged. One time you say Koran says Torah is changed!!!! You are disproving yourself.
    • Jun 29 2011: SR - in following up on my comment you missed my point.

      you copied my comment and added as follows:

      "There is no chance men would have been convicted or exonerated in an Islamic court without referencing the most appropriate Hadith unless they simply didn't exist at the time. "
      agree. such stupid and ignorant Muslims are not few. But this not prove all hadith are fake.

      The point was that THERE WERE NO HADITH until the early 9th century. The first appearance of their use in court. A hundred and fifty years of Islamic rule and not a single hadith to be found.
      • Jun 29 2011: "The point was that THERE WERE NO HADITH until the early 9th century. "
        this is absolutely false.
        did you check
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_letters_to_the_Heads-of-State
        such documents exist today.
        many Eadith existed.
        but because paper was not used in time of prophet writings was on animals skins and bones and mostly hadiths was kept by memorizing and transferred to next generations.
        ONLY AND ONLY AND ONLY when a hadith is valid that it be tough checked all the quoter chain of a hadith should be checked to be honest and not liar people and then a hadith is considered valid.
        also a Hadith is checked in many ways for example a hadith first should be checked with Koran and if any conflict with Koran it is false Hadith.
  • Jun 26 2011: Dear Elam Waltzing ,"SR - here's the link to the Yemeni Qur'an. "
    "According to writer Toby Lester, his examination revealed "unconventional verse orderings, minor textual variations, and rare styles of orthography and artistic embellishment."
    So what?

    "unconventional verse orderings"
    Koran was revealed verse by verse. And finally prophet collected all together but changed the order from timely to chapters and subject. Muslims know this and this is not change in text.

    "minor textual variations"
    1- this is normal. It not mean different meaning.
    2- It is for different calligraphy and writing method.
    3- The meaning is same while minor difference in text
    4- Minor differences are only 1 important word and few other are related to different pronunciations.

    "and rare styles of orthography and artistic embellishment"
    Not important.
    Finally this not prove any change in Koran text. Today Koran is original in text. Only different are in pronunciation and reading method. Only one difference in part of one world of Koran exist that is not important in meaning.

    "However I couldn't find any documents proving that Muhammad's name was scribed in Arabic documents before the 8th century."
    It was not for it. He is 14th from "The Fourteen Infallibles" and he is alive today.
    About what you want I showed you the letters of prophet to heads of states.
    The name of prophet can be seen in them. Its only one sample. Many other exist.

    "What we are looking for here is some confirmation outside of the Qur'an and Sunnah, something that confirms their existence."
    I am sorry for you. You do not know history (even non Muslim historians) only one example: read Bertrand Russell works about history of Islam. Also museums are full of cloths, shoe and Korans and many thing of life of prophet. I invite you to iran to show you some important museums. Or go to saudi Arabia and see museums. Please do not read only from enemies of Islam.

    "Humphreys was a historian who looked into this."
    Who is he?
  • Jun 26 2011: [...] cont. of past comment
    Muslim is a general noun like "good". A real Christian is a Muslim and accepts Koran.


    "Islam, however, has no credibility unless Muhammad can disprove the Biblical accounting, as he based Islam on his variant of the Torah."
    Torah was written at least 2000 years after Moses (PBUH) and is deviated. God send one book not 39. wonder!: the whole story of long death ceremony of Moses (PBUH) is described in Torah. How it is from Moses (PBUH)? He was alive after death? Torah and Bible are deviated.

    Please note:
    KORAN MEANS ORIGINAL TORAH AND BIBLE. Which only were aviable at life of Moses and Jesus (peace on them) and then deviated.

    "None of these men were apostles. Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Job, Aaron, and Solomon weren't even prophets. David was one of many writers of Psalms."
    God sent 124000 prophet.

    "Is it really believable that all the prophets and patriarchs of the Bible were actually Muslims?"
    yes. you do not know meaning of word Muslim. It is like word good. Who obey God is Muslim.

    "How, pray tell, "
    Prophet says how to pray.

    "can Allah be God, "
    Allah God yahve allare same thing in different languages.

    "Arabs be God’s chosen people, "
    No. why? All people are equal. Only God decided to send Koran in Arabia. Nothing more.

    "Muhammad be God’s favored messenger,"
    yes. he is prophet of all prophets. He has a prize: his religion never expired.

    "and Mecca be sacred territory if Yahweh had Moses lead the Jews out of bondage and then ultimately into the "Holy Land" of Israel? Why not Arabia?"
    I do not know. Its God decision. It is not me or you business.

    "Muhammad’s criminal and immoral past,"
    prove it. not any war is criminal. Some times there is no way but war. War is last way and was defend.
    Also distinguish between wars of prophet and wars of nonbeliever cruel Arab emperors after prophet (who prophet killed their evil fathers) in the name of Islam.
    • Jun 28 2011: SR - Too many threads, like you say let's stick with one at a time. I meant to reply to this yesterday but got side tracked by other threads.

      you say, "A real Christian is a Muslim and accepts Koran." No, a Christian by definition is one who believes Jesus was the son of God, died for our sins and was resurrected. You base your statement on your belief that whatever is said in the Qur'an is true and then you ignore facts to coincide with what the Qur'an says.

      I do not accept the Qur'an is truth. By using the Qur'an to prove itself to me you prove nothing. I need something more. Qur'an says one thing, Bible says another. Why should I believe Qur'an and not Bible?

      Here is the link to the Dead Sea Scrolls. I must take back some of what I said.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

      This is what it says:
      “These manuscripts generally date between 150 BCE and 70 CE.” "While some of the Qumran biblical manuscripts are nearly identical to the Masoretic, or traditional, Hebrew text of the Old Testament, some manuscripts of the books of Exodus and Samuel found in Cave Four exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content." "It is now becoming increasingly clear that the Old Testament scripture was extremely fluid until its canonization around 100 AD."

      So even if there were some differing texts, nothing has changed since 100 AD, over 500 years before Muhammad. The Masoretic text of Muhammad’s day matches today’s Torah - verbatim.

      In 625 AD, while talking to the Jews of Medina, Muhammad said, Ishaq:269 'you know quite well that the Qur'an is from Allah. You will find it WRITTEN IN THE TORAH WHICH YOU HAVE.'

      If this is true, then anyone could simply show it in any legitimate manuscript from any where in the world at any time, and the issue would be resolved.
      In the Torah the Jews had in 625 AD as in today's, there is no mention of Muhammad as a prophet at any time anywhere. So either he is lying or if I am wrong, just show me a quote.
      • Jun 29 2011: "No, a Christian by definition is one who believes Jesus was the son of God, died for our sins and was resurrected. You base your statement on your belief that whatever is said in the Qur'an is true and then you ignore facts to coincide with what the Qur'an says."
        Christian or Muslim is not 0 or 1.
        they are a range.
        if some one only say: I witness there is not God but Allah and Muhammad is messenger of God. then he is a Muslim. but Muslim has unlimited levels. the prophet is the highest level of Muslim.
        also Christianity is not 0 1
        today Christians are Christians. but by real Christian we mean who researches in Bible and his religion and tries to find the most original sayings of Jesus (PBUH).
        today many deviations and superstition are mixed in Christianity (also in Islam and Judaism).
        some examples of superstition:
        1- trinity.
        2- prophet is son of God
        3- prophet died for our sins

        what you defined is only one type of a Christian.
        they church leaders know truth about Islam but hide it from Christians because in that case they will lose their power.

        "I do not accept the Qur'an is truth."
        this is your right and sign of a wise human. but I hope you research it more from valid references.

        "By using the Qur'an to prove itself to me you prove nothing"
        agree.

        "Qur'an says one thing, Bible says another. Why should I believe Qur'an and not Bible?"
        which bible you mean? original versions of holy books have no conflict. all are from one God (in different languages). but today only original version of Koran is available. if you find original versions of Bible and Torah they guide you to Koran and final prophet.

        "Why should I believe Qur'an and not Bible?"
        because your wisdom and research about validity of Koran.
        FOOD COMES TO YOU BUT
        TRUTH DOES NOT COME TO YOU AND YOU SHOULD SEEK TRUTH.

        thanks for your useful link about Dead_Sea_Scrolls.
        I have a question:
        how much is time between them and time of Moses (PBUH)? are you sure they are what prophet said?
      • Jun 29 2011: "The Masoretic text of Muhammad’s day matches today’s Torah"
        sorry what means?

        "In 625 AD, while talking to the Jews of Medina, Muhammad said, Ishaq:269 'you know quite well that the Qur'an is from Allah. You will find it WRITTEN IN THE TORAH WHICH YOU HAVE.'
        "
        sorry I could not find it?. what you mean by Ishaq:269? I doubt such verse exist in Koran. please first yourself check it from quran.al-islam.org then writer the verse number by number.
        please note that different versions of Torah and Bible exist but only professionals and religious leaders know what is truth and they keep truth hidden from people. original Torah and Bible are kept secret from people.
        if some one do enough research in Torah will find Koran is truth. but people only copy from biased links and believe first thing they see in a link and do not do research to make sure.

        you show me original Torah and Bible and you do not misquote Koran then problems are solved.
    • Jun 28 2011: SR - Having trouble posting so I'll just continue here.

      After all if Muhammad was lying for personal gain, it wouldn't be the first time.
      After the battle of Badr, Ka'b bin Ashraf urged the people of Yathrib to: Ishaq:365 "Drive off that fool of yours so that you might be safe from talk that makes no sense. Why do you taunt those who mourn over their dead? They lived good lives, and as such we must remember them. But now you have become like jackals."
      While planing to kill Ka’b bin Ashraf: Ishaq:365/Tabari VII:94 "Muhammad bin Maslamah said, 'O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.' 'Say what you like.' Muhammad replied. 'You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.'" The moment this man walked out of the room, Muhammad must have doubled over laughing. The stooge was willing to commit murder yet he was concerned about lying. And while that's hilarious in a macabre sort of way, consider the value of Muhammad’s absolution since he had just approved lying! No prophet of the Bible would approve lying.
      You say, “Torah was written at least 2000 years after Moses (PBUH) and is deviated.” Wrong. The best historians can surmise is that Moses lived around 1200 B.C. At the latest 1400. I got this info from one of the sites you or J Ali gave me to read, but I have also read it elsewhere. The Dead Sea Scrolls have the story of Moses in them and they date from 250 B.C to 70 AD. Do the math.
      You say, “God send one book not 39.” Who says? The Judeo scriptures are written over a 1500 year period with meticulous attention to history and circumstance. They tell an ongoing story of the Jewish people and the other societies they encountered. This helps to prove their veracity because we can reconcile it with history such as the Babylonian exile and other major political events that occurred during this time and recorded in non Biblical documents. So we know they are giving us a fairly accurate portrayal of the events surrounding the Biblical characters.

      Con't.
      • Jun 29 2011: first:
        what you mean by ishaq? it is a book? what is the complete name of book?
        it is Koran chapter? which chapter? koran has not such chapter?
        it is person? there are two hadith quoter in history of islam with the same name:
        Ishaq bin Ammar (bin means son)
        which of them you mean?
        one of them is known as a liar man.
        please use valid references.

        about lie in Islam:
        lie is great sin and only has 3 exception:
        1- in what when you are captured by enemy
        2- when you want to connect the relation of two huffed friends.
        3- lie promises to your wife only for increasing love relation between a husband and a wife. (only special cases not any lie to wife)

        about date of Torah by your math still Torah is for near 1000 years after Moses (PBUH).
        please note only what God revealed to prophet can be considered word or God.
        you say:
        "The Judeo scriptures are written over a 1500 year period with meticulous attention to history and circumstance. "
        so why we should consider them the word of God?
        http://tanzil.net/#2:79

        we only consider the Torah and Bible at time of Moses and Jesus (PBUH) the word of God.
        today original sayings of them can be found (not today Torah and Bible are 100% false) but it needs much research and simple people usually do not research in religion and see surface of religion.
    • Jun 28 2011: SR -The Qur'an has no such leg to stand on when giving account of events that preceded Muhammad. So why should I believe them instead of the Bible?
      You say, “the whole story of long death ceremony of Moses (PBUH) is described in Torah. How it is from Moses (PBUH)? He was alive after death?”
      Thank you for proving my point! I never said Moses wrote the Torah, neither does the Bible. No, it was Allah continually referred to it as “the book of Moses”. The word Torah means “instructions” Moses was just one of the characters. So are you suggesting that Allah doesn't know what he is talking about?
      You say, “KORAN MEANS ORIGINAL TORAH AND BIBLE. Which only were aviable at life of Moses and Jesus (peace on them) and then deviated.”
      What do you mean, ' original Torah and Bible were only available at time of Moses and Jesus', these men lived 1200 years apart.
      Koran simply means 'to recite'. If you are trying to say that the original Torah and Bible were actually the same as the Qur'an is today then you are delusional. They have nothing in common. The message is opposite as I have pointed out in another post and will expand upon later. The Torah was written about 2000 years before the Qur'an and stands alone irregardless of whether the Q even exists.

      There is nothing in world history to support your claim, but everyone knows the Torah was written prior to Jesus who lived somewhere between 2 AD and 50 AD according to historical records.

      Your understanding of what the Bible is, is very poor. The Torah, Prophets and Psalms together compose what is called the 'Old Covenant' part of the bible. The Gospels (New Covenant) were written about Jesus after his death. Not given to him as the Allah says, since he was already dead.

      “God sent 124000 prophet.” Prove it.

      -There is no such word as Muslim in the Hebrew language that the Torah was written in, so no one back then was calling themselves a Muslim as Allah falsely claims. What language do you think Moses spoke?
      • Jun 29 2011: "Qur'an has no such leg to stand on "
        what you mean by leg?

        "Thank you for proving my point! I never said Moses wrote the Torah, neither does the Bible. "
        please note:
        God sent one book Torah to Moses (PBUH) then enemies of God (nonbeliever Jews who wanted world and money and power changed it and added many more books to it. old testimonies.)

        also God sent one book to Jesus (PBUH) then the church (influence by who changed Torah (today Zionists)) collected all Bibles from people after Jesus (PBUH) and until many years people had no bible then at year 170 church made 4 deviated versions of Bible and distributed it to people. some references say Paul (a Jew) could enter church like a spy and was an enemy of God and changed Bible.

        you are right scriptures are human made. but this not mean God not exist and God not send any original book to Moses and Jesus (PBUH)

        "Koran simply means 'to recite'. If you are trying to say that the original Torah and Bible were actually the same as the Qur'an is today then you are delusional."
        please read careful and do not misquote me.
        the original Bible is more complete than original Torah and Koran is more complete then both previous books. but non of them have any conflict with each other. today only original version of Koran is available easily and old scriptures are hard to find original but still possible by try and research.

        "The message is opposite as I have pointed out i"
        you are using deviated and human made versions of scriptures. not original.

        Koran itself has enough proof. if you know Arabic or Persian you will have no doubt. no need to deviated books mention it. how who is enemy of Koran write the name of Koran in the books writes in the name of God?
        the Koran is not in their benefit.

        "Moses was just one of the characters."
        do not say that. fear God. Moses (PBUH) was a prophet of God.

        "Koran simply means 'to recite'"
        yes. i mean when Koran says Torah Koran means original torah.
      • Jun 29 2011: "There is nothing in world history to support your claim"
        what claim?
        Torah and Bible are clearly deviated.

        "Old Covenant"
        I know about old and new Covenant. but God send only one book to Moses and only one to Jesus (peace on them)
        the other books are not valid unless from certain known chain of quoters and with tough research.

        "“God sent 124000 prophet.” Prove it."
        its prove is not easy first you should accept validity of some historical non-English reference books.

        "There is no such word as Muslim "
        koran is in arabic language. you should first translate Muslim and then seek it in old books.
        do you know what means word Muslim?

        "What language do you think Moses spoke?"
        hebraic

        but Koran is Arabic.
    • Jun 28 2011: SR- You say, “"Muhammad’s criminal and immoral past, prove it”

      I gave you a quote earlier that shows Muhammad counselling one of his followers that it is ok to lie in order to kill one of the poets/journalists of his time who gave him bad press. And that is only a minor part of his immoral behaviour. But this is off topic, so let's not go there right now.

      BTW the Torah was available to Jesus and he quoted it and referred to it often. If there is no word 'Allah' in Hebrew, and that is the language that Moses spoke, how could he have said what Allah says he did?

      i.e. Qur'an 20:60 "Pharaoh devised his plot. Moses said, 'Woe to you! Forge not a lie against Allah, lest He destroy you by torment!'" Remember the Qur'an is word for word the exact sayings of Allah. So if Moses being a Hebrew, speaking Hebrew had no word for Allah in his language, how could he have said that?

      Muhammad often referred to himself as a messenger and told the Jew that he was their prophet. That must have been funny to the Jews since Yahweh never used humans as "messengers." Angels are Yahweh's messengers; it's what the Hebrew word for "angel" means. Men were called to be rabbis (teachers), prophets, and priests. " If Allah inspired the Torah and knows all things he should have known this.

      Qur'an 7:157: "Those who follow the Messenger (Muhammad), the Prophet who can neither read nor write whom they find written in the Torah... Prophets were not messengers for Yahweh yet you say Allah and Yahweh are the same God.

      Camel dung. Sounds to me like Allah is doing a lousy job of plagiarizing.
      • Jun 29 2011: yes Muhammad killed many. but all was according to Koran and not immoral.
        what you define moral?
        morel is determined by God laws which are in Koran.

        "BTW the Torah was available to Jesus and he quoted it and referred to it often. If there is no word 'Allah' in Hebrew, and that is the language that Moses spoke, how could he have said what Allah says he did?"
        Dear friend again and again:
        ALLAH IS ARABIC OF GOD AND YAHVEH. THE ARE THE SAME ONLY DIFFERENT LANGUAGE.

        if you only translate god to Arabic your problem is solved.

        in Arabic Allah means God.

        "So if Moses being a Hebrew, speaking Hebrew had no word for Allah in his language, how could he have said that?"
        I am sorry for you.
        Allah is only Arabic language and same as god in Torah.

        for example we in Iran say سيب زميني but if I come in your country and say سيب زميني you do not understand so I should say "potato". but they are the same.

        "Muhammad often referred to himself as a messenger and told the Jew that he was their prophet. "
        Muhammad (PBUH) like other prophets is prophet from one God to all humans. not only to Arab people.

        "Yahweh never used humans as "messengers." "
        so what is Moses (PBUH)? he was not human? also Jesus and Abraham and Noah (peace on them) were not humans?

        "Angels are Yahweh's messengers"
        yes but angels only speak prophets (revelation) and prophets speak people.

        "Qur'an 7:157: "Those who follow the Messenger (Muhammad), the Prophet who can neither read nor write whom they find written in the Torah."
        yes they find but in other language. what is the conflict?
        you do not see language of one word in two book with same meaning.
        please first read it yourself:
        http://tanzil.net/#7:157

        Koran is Arabic. why God should speak Hebrew in Koran?
        or why God should speak Arabic in Torah?

        "Camel dung. Sounds to me like Allah is doing a lousy job of plagiarizing. "
        please be polite and do not go slower.
  • Jun 26 2011: Dear Elam Waltzing ,
    "The 20thSura has Moses meeting with Pharaoh but has nothing to do with Moses"
    Oh! Many parts of Koran is about Moses (PBUH) not only 20th sura.
    Read them all.

    Dear Friend. I think you are copying Koran verses from an invalid link. Please first yourself check them from here:
    www.tanzil.net
    And
    Quran.al-islam.org
    Then write here. I am sure many of them are misquoted and if you read Koran direct they will be solved.
    Please do not copy before any research.

    "While every surah attests to the fact the Qur'an wasn't divinely inspired,"
    You do not know Koran. You know Koran false from channel of enemies of Koran.

    "This one is a real prize. Crucifixion was invented by the Assyrians, but not until 500 B.C. Moses returned to Pharaoh in 1200 B.C. "
    I did not understand what you mean. Please explain it and first check yourself in Koran.

    Furthermore, A moral God cannot compete for the prize of "most severe punisher."
    Why? God not need prize. God can be both at same time.

    "Please explain this to me. I am having trouble reconciling the Qur'an with rational thought."
    What is irrational?
    For example a loving mother punishes child.

    "The Bible doesn't mention Muhammad, Muslims, Islam, Allah, Mecca, or the Ka'aba."
    Deviated yes. But original mentioned. Do you know Gospel of barnabas?
    Also Bible called Muhammad (PBUH) by name of Ahmad.
    Reason is Bible is deviated. After Jesus (PBUH) all bibles collected from people and until year 170 people had no bible then church made 4 deviated version of bible.

    "Muhammad fancied himself a Jewish prophet "
    Evidence?

    "the Messiah even."
    Evidence? Please show Koran verse.
    I am sorry. I think you only copy with no research.

    "He claimed that Islam was the original religion of Abraham. "
    Yes. But do you know what means Islam?
    Islam means submission. All prophets had submission to God. God never changed his religion but developed it time by time and all were Muslim.
    Muslim is a general noun like "good". A real Christian is a Mu
  • thumb
    Jun 25 2011: 9- Koran was said during 23 years by prophet. You know the ideas of a writer changes over time. But Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict.

    Wrong, many many internal contradictions and conflicts.

    10- There is many facts in history many famous people in Arab wanted to destroy Koran but no one could.

    Wrong Uthman destroyed all copies of the Koran except his.

    11- There is no proved conflict in Koran with science.

    Wrong hundreds of contradictions.

    Conclusion the Koran is not from God and hence the hypothesis is disproven.
    • Jun 26 2011: "Wrong, many many internal contradictions and conflicts. "
      again claims with no proof. please show your own argument and do not copy an invalid link with a long list of lies. I have no time to reply all them. pick one and write your argument with think and research of yourself.

      "Wrong Uthman destroyed all copies of the Koran except his."
      it was a form of standardization of READING METHOD (the small signs above and under text showing the correct pronunciation). and then the published it in large number.
      it is not destroy. destroy is replying to claim of Koran that no one can make a book like Koran

      "Wrong hundreds of contradictions."
      instead of large claims. only show one with rigid proof.

      "Conclusion the Koran is not from God and hence the hypothesis is disproven. "
      yes but based on unproved false claims apparently true made by enemies of God who deviated Torah and Bible and who changed Torah and changed 1 book of God to 39 book.
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/2:79
      when they could not deviate Koran like Bible and Koran they made such lies and distribute them in Internet to control think of people and sell them their products.
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    Jun 25 2011: 4- Koran has many amazing numbers in words letters ,.. that makes many amazing facts.(more than accidental). What figure do you define as “more than accidental “

    5- Koran says sun is moving – Yep – around the Earth. So did all primitive people. You can see the Sun is moving. This does not prove the Koran is from God. In fact it disproves it.

    6- It is 1400 years Koran is shouting http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:88 ("If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."

    That shouting is ridiculous. It does not prove Koran is from God. In fact it disproves it. An intelligent being would not make such a ridiculous statement.

    “and Koran has many enemies but no one claimed could. Many tried but it was not more than joke. (themselves accepted. Fact in history until now)” – What a laugh. Is that what they teach you in your history books in your country?

    “Koran said human can pass layers of skies and earth and can go to skies but needs some power. and even said human can control moon and sun and what are in skies:”
    http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/55:33

    You are self deluded SR. In fact what that verse says, according to your link “O company of jinn and mankind, if you are able to pass beyond the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass. You will not pass except by authority [from Allah]”.

    It is challenging humans to travel in space and says you cannot except with the permission of Allah.


    I do not recall the Russians or Americans or Chinese taking any such permission. This again disproves the Quran

    http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/45:13 – Meaningless but does not say what you claim.


    7- Koran describes the steps of growth of fetus in womb in 7 presise.

    Wrong – we have been through this before

    8 - No proof here
    • Jun 26 2011: "That shouting is ridiculous. It does not prove Koran is from God."
      please read some history and see many people specially great Arab poets in big challenges tries but themselves admitted they can not. please study it.

      "You are self deluded SR. "
      You are self deluded Richard and this is one of them.
      why you not use logic and argument to prove it? such claims and curses are signs of a weak man in logic.
      use your wisdom and logic and be honest.

      "An intelligent being would not make such a ridiculous statement."
      why? it is a proof that Koran is not from human and God will sue you based on this fact.
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/76:3

      "It is challenging humans to travel in space and says you cannot except with the permission of Allah."
      agree. any action of us is by permission of Allah even your breathing.

      "I do not recall the Russians or Americans or Chinese taking any such permission."
      agree. this is meaning of رحمن in start of Koran chapters:
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/1:1
      "the Entirely Merciful," means God permits all humans use creatures and power of God. but only until death. and after death the the Especially Merciful.of God is only for believers
      "In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful. (1) "

      "Meaningless but does not say what you claim."
      سخر لکم means God mane what is in sky under control of human. what means سخر؟

      "Wrong – we have been through this before"
      yes we talked but not proved it is wrong.

      8
      history is clear.
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    Jun 25 2011: “proving Koran” [is from God]

    This is YOUR contention so YOU have to prove it.

    “is there any proof that show Koran not from human and is from God?”

    Now you have switched from proving the Koran to disproving the Koran. The onus of proof is on YOU. YOU prove that it is from God.

    As with any hypothesis tested under scientific principles – if even one of your contentions fails your hypothesis that the Koran is from God fails.

    So let us examine your contentions:

    1- It was opposite of most scientific and nonscientific beliefs of people of 1400 years ago that leaded to wars between prophet and Arabs. So Koran was not copied. People had 360 God and stars were daughters of God and many more silly beliefs. I suggest study context of Arabia at that time.

    Wrong there were plenty of people who did not believe in 360 Gods etc. There were Jews and Christians in Arabia during the time of Muhammad. It is probable that he got his ideas from them and invented his own religion based on their religion, with himself as the most important character.
    It is also probable that when they did not accept his religion when he got the chance he turned against them and exterminated them from Arabia.

    2- "Koran said earth is round".

    This does not prove that the Koran is from God, even if true, which it is not. Other people for over a 1,000 years before the Quran said the Earth was round. They did not say God told them, they reasoned it out. And as a matter of fact as I have shown below and elsewhere the Koran says the Earth is Flat. Disproving that it could be from an all-knowing God.

    3- "Koran said sun will turn off one day".

    I don’t know of that claim. Please show me. Even if true it does not prove The Koran is from God. As with all religious myths, some will be coincidentally correct. But how does it say the Sun will turn off? Will it become a Red Giant swallowing the Earth? Will it collapse and explode in a Supernova?
    • Jun 26 2011: "Now you have switched from proving the Koran to disproving the Koran. The onus of proof is on YOU. YOU prove that it is from God."
      in you do not interrupt I do. I have limited time and you consume my time by repeating same thing again and again. I started this topic for Christoph. not for you. you go ans stick to your beliefs until you die and see their results by your own eyes. this topic is for honest people seeking truth who admit their mistakes and do not insist them.

      "Wrong there were plenty of people who did not believe in 360 Gods etc."
      all tribes of Arabia had them and prayed them. how much you know history of Arabia. each tribe had a special God of 360 God. the Biggest of them were LAAT and OZZA

      "This does not prove that the Koran is from God"
      by this one you are correct. but considering all facts of Koran together it proves is from God.

      "I don’t know of that claim. Please show me."
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/81:1

      "Even if true it does not prove The Koran is from God.'
      Dear friend. each fact of them is like a piece of a puzzle. only one piece does not show any thing. but if you see all pieces together you see God. (what I said are only few examples. wondering facts of Koran are unlimited.


      "Will it become a Red Giant swallowing the Earth? Will it collapse and explode in a Supernova?"
      they are from Richard Dawson holy book?! :)

      "Red Giant"
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/55:37

      "collapse and explode in a Supernova? "
      Koran said such thing.
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        Jun 27 2011: To conserve space and time I will only reply to your replies which are relevant.

        2. "Koran said earth is round".

        Me - This does not prove that the Koran is from God, even if true, which it is not.

        SR - by this one you are correct. but considering all facts of Koran together it proves is from God.

        Me - We can only consider one statement at a time. You agree that even the Quran did say the Earth was round it would not prove the Quran was from God.

        However I contend it says the Earth is flat. And will you agree that IF indeed it does say it is flat then the Quran cannot be from God?

        The basis on which I say the Quran says the Earth is flat are the following:

        1. Every verse on the shape of the Earth gives some description of flatness. Spread, stretched, bed, cradle, carpet.
        2. No verse describes it as round, which it could easily have done.
        3. It talks of a place where the Sun sets on the Earth

        You say that it says the Earth is round on the basis that it talks of many Easts and Wests, sunrises and sunsets. And these because of our modern knowledge can be best explained by a spherical Earth revolving around the Sun. But this is no guarantee nor indeed is there any evidence that the writers of the Quran also knew this

        So will you agree that there is a plausible case that I might be correct, and that you might be wrong in your conclusions?

        3- "Koran said sun will turn off one day"

        Me - I don’t know of that claim. Please show me. Even if true it does not prove The Koran is from God. As with all religious myths, some will be coincidentally correct.

        SR - 81:1 "When the sun is overthrown"

        Me - That verse gives the impression of some powerful creature (the sun) being conquered or overthrown rather than a physical thing being turned off.

        And it doesn't rule out my contention that like other religious myths, some bits of it may have some resemblance to current scientific knowledge coincidentally.

        It in no way describes the end of the sun in any accurate manner
        • Jun 27 2011: "Me - We can only consider one statement at a time. "
          yes but when one finished we go to next. like a puzzle parts. this is like all other researches is step by step. you want to know all the Koran at one minute?

          "You agree that even the Quran did say the Earth was round it would not prove the Quran was from God. "
          I agreed if some one want to judge Koran ONLY by this one fact. but Koran has not only one fact. I said like puzzle. by one part you can not see the large pic.

          "However I contend it says the Earth is flat."
          no problem. please only talk on this and when finished this start other debate. for time.

          "1. Every verse on the shape of the Earth gives some description of flatness. Spread, stretched, bed, cradle, carpet."
          proof? verse number? accurate arabic meaning of each word you claim? not only translate fits your benefit:
          http://corpus.quran.com/faq.jsp#translation

          "2. No verse describes it as round, which it could easily have done."
          if you want exactly Koran say what you want OK Koran not said exactly in english: "earth is round because Richard wants".
          but if you research and consider all verses of earth they totally say earth is round.

          "3. It talks of a place where the Sun sets on the Earth"
          it is for address. it said "found it" which means apparently. what means apparently?
          please reply all my past questions.

          "But this is no guarantee nor indeed is there any evidence that the writers of the Quran also knew this"
          no other way is possible.
          so please is there any other shape possible in this case? flat earth has not many east and west.
          Koran said in 3 different verse:
          1- ease and west
          2- two ease and two west
          3- Easts and Wests

          how a flat earth has many east and west.
          all verses should be considered together.

          SR - 81:1 "When the sun is overthrown" "
          1-understand translate of کورت well
          2-conquered is false
          3- overthrown is not accurate
          anyway by your scenario it will turn off also
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        Jun 27 2011: According to scientific knowledge several billion years from now the Sun will grow into a red giant forming a planetary nebula. After the outer layers are ejected the extremely hot stellar core will slowly cool and fade as a white dwarf over many billions of years. (I was wrong about the Supernova it is too small to form one).

        Me - "But how does it say the Sun will turn off? Will it become a Red Giant swallowing the Earth? Will it collapse and explode in a Supernova?"

        SR - 55:37 "And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh rosy like red hide "

        Me - This does not talk of the Sun at all. We have all seen the sky becoming red and that is the impression one gets of what the verse is talking about. Also it talks about the heaven which "splitteth asunder". It could very well be talking about phenomena which have already been observed.

        In any case will you agree that verse is not an accurate description of a Red Giant star and could very well be talking about other things rather than the Sun becoming a Red Giant.

        And where does it talk about it becoming a White Dwarf at the end of its life?

        None of this proves the Quran is from God, which is your contention and in fact it casts serious doubts on your hypothesis.
        • Jun 27 2011: I will not continue you unless I see your honesty in talk.
          please first finish earth debate and prove it is flat in Koran or accept it is round in Koran.
          and accept your mistakes to prove you are honest. for example do you accept دحاها has root?
          then I can continue talking you.
          I am only interested to talk real truth seekers.
          talking who is not real truth seeker is wasting time with no result.
          you can have your beliefs and not talk me. but if you are seeking truth and be honest and clear any prejudice and dark Image about about Muslims and Koran (like terrorist, Bin laden 11 sep. Aisha was child Islamophobia and so on) then am ready to talk you.
          I started this topic for Christoph and real honest truth seekers who first research and then say something. not who blindly only copy from not honest links and do not accept anything but their beliefs like atheism materialism and so on and there is no min. chance for change in their rigid beliefs.
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        Jun 27 2011: PS :-

        SR "you go ans stick to your beliefs until you die and see their results by your own eyes. "

        I had the impression that you cant see things "with your own eyes" after you are dead. That is because both the eyes, through which we see and the brain, through which we analyse what we see, cease to function and decompose after death.

        However if you believe that we will be able to "see with our own eyes" after we are dead, and see the truth moreover, can I suggest we all postpone this debate till after we are dead, when we can resume our chat?
        • Jun 27 2011: please note human has two kind of eye:
          1- eye of head which is home and food of worms and insects after death.
          2- eye of soul which is the eye you see things in sleep dreams when your eye of head is closed.

          I assumed you do not take words literally and have min. intelligence to get it that I do not mean eye of head.
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        Jun 27 2011: SR "do you accept دحاها has root?"

        I do not know Arabic, so I think we were both mistaken about what we were talking about. J Ali also made the same mistake. This is known as talking at cross purposes.

        I did not claim that dahaha or daha the word used in verse 79:30 did not have a root. What I said was the following:

        1. It means spread or stretched. J Ali admits it means that.
        2. The word duhiya being a noun is not a root word and it means the place in sand where an ostrich lays its egg (the nest of the Ostrich)

        The important point here is that the verse reads “and after that He spread out the earth”. You claimed it meant that the Earth was shaped like an Ostrich egg. J Ali admitted that it does not say that.

        Are you satisfied now?

        You talk about rigid beliefs. None of my beliefs are "1000%" as you say your belief is on Islam. I am willing to change my beliefs if you give me the slightest reasonable evidence. But none of what you have said is in the least bit plausible.

        If you "1000%" believe in Islam obviously you will never change your beliefs, or accept things that are reasonable. Like my arguments about the Quran saying the Earth is flat, or that when the Quran says "And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh rosy like red hide ", that is not an accurate or reasonable description of the Sun turning into a Red Giant.

        PS
        SR - "human has two kind of eye:
        1- eye of head which is home and food of worms and insects after death.
        2- eye of soul which is the eye you see things in sleep dreams when your eye of head is closed."

        What we see when we dream is also in our brain. There are no two kinds of eyes. After you are dead your brain ceases to function and decomposes. I am not aware you can dream or think or talk without a brain
        • Jun 27 2011: ''J Ali also made the same mistake''

          Richard, I speak Arabic, and I have been studying Arabic for a long time.....what mistake did I make? not very nice of you.

          some people who think دحاها means ostrich egg...they are the ones that could be mistaken....but I only gave you pure Arabic.....and I explained the verses clearly.....

          That is why I get annoyed when you, not knowing Arabic (as you admit), start trying to explain the Quran..or learning from the very biased WikiIslam while I am telling you that they are wrong and that they don't understand Arabic.....to me, your claims are ridiculous but I am having a hard time trying to make you understand that.....
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        Jun 27 2011: SR - ""But this is no guarantee nor indeed is there any evidence that the writers of the Quran also knew this"
        no other way is possible.
        so please is there any other shape possible in this case? flat earth has not many east and west.
        Koran said in 3 different verse:
        1- ease and west
        2- two ease and two west
        3- Easts and Wests

        SR you do not seem to be understanding the simple thing I am pointing out to you.

        There is a man who sees a ship approach on a calm sea. He notes he first sees the mast, then the lower part of the ship and then the whole ship. People have been seeing this for thousands of years since men have been sailing. But few people reasoned out that this meant the Earth was curved.

        I agree that no other explanation was reasonable. But no where does the Quran say because the East-West shifts with the seasons therefore the world is round and it revolves around the sun in so many days. It does not connect the dots. Instead it talks about the Earth many times and each time uses some description of flatness when it does.

        I fail to see how you cant understand this simple thing. I now leave it to someone else to explain this to you if you still dont understand.
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        Jun 27 2011: J Ali "Richard, I speak Arabic, and I have been studying Arabic for a long time.....what mistake did I make? not very nice of you"

        Dear J Ali - the "mistake" that we were talking about different words. You dahaha a verb and the word used in the verse and I about duhiya. We were arguing about a mistaken impression each of us had. There was no intention of me to be "not nice".

        talk at cross purposes = when two people don't understand each other because they are talking about two different things (but don't realise it)

        I feel your antagonism against me in your words. Please do not have any, I have none towards you. I speak straight from my heart and what I genuinely understand. If I hurt you I am sorry.
        • Jun 27 2011: Oh, ok.... and Richard, I have no antagonism towards you also.....I respect you a lot, as a thinking human being.....if you felt antagonism from me...then I too am sorry....
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    Jun 25 2011: S.R. Ahmadi, I think that knowing and believing the truth is a universal concept expressed in different perspectives, beliefs, scientific knowledge and other cultural and personal convictions.

    I sense that the arguments against Koran or its prophets does not mean that you cannot know the truth through it, as you said "a Muslim accept Koran by wisdom and rational argument and evidences".

    I have ambivalence about this "moral persecution" or "intellectual persecution" that is prevalent even today that makes us think that the credibility of someone is defined by a certain act that destroys all the possibility that beyond this the truth can still be known.

    I think the challenge for you my friend is to translate your convictions of truth into the language of our mutual interests like the people below are proposing:

    “A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.” Albert Einstein, 1954

    "Our righteous minds were designed to unite us into teams, divide us against other teams and blind us to the truth ... we need to step out of the moral matrix and cultivate moral humility.. we are passionately involved to improve our world but we are also passionately committed to the truth ... and use our passionate commitment to the truth and turn it into a better future for us all." (Jonathan Haidt, TED talk 2008)
    • Jun 26 2011: Dear Joe Delsen,
      "I have ambivalence about this "moral persecution" or "intellectual persecution" that is prevalent even today that makes us think that the credibility of someone is defined by a certain act that destroys all the possibility that beyond this the truth can still be known."
      agree and I had not such claim nor Muslims. Wisdom and science and other tools can find truth. But each have errors and limits.

      "This delusion is a kind of prison for us, r"
      Please note I am not expressing myself. I hate this. This causes misguiding people. I try only quote Koran and valid true sayings of prophet.

      "Jonathan Haidt, TED talk 2008)"
      I agree it.

      I think you do not know me perfect. I am not spreading my own ideas. I try only spread ideas and truth from Koran and have minimum sayings from myself. If there is something from myself it is my personal mistake.

      Also I count not understand what you exactly mean?
      Do you have any clear suggest for me? You are welcomed.
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        Jun 26 2011: Mr. Ahmadi,
        "This delusion is a kind of prison for us" - I agree, there's a better word for Einstein's "delusion". The point I'm driving at is the same as your statement "each have errors and limits" which Einstein termed as "prison".

        I do want to understand you and so far what I know about you is that you know the truth and you want to share it and it is your firm belief that it is found in the Koran and that you also agree that "Wisdom and science and other tools can find truth".

        I had thought that latin is the most precise language and now I'm fascinated in your thinking that the arabic language is also very precise. More reasons for me to need to understand you.

        First let me state what I believe who really you are. You are a very precious human being, therefore very important and of great worth. Among many other great characteristics that defines your true identity, you being a conscious being or your firm belief as God's child gives me the solid reason as I do, to deeply respect you and care for you as my brother. That's not all. I know that you are a very intelligent person and you have a great good will.

        Assessing from your current credential today based on your TED information, you have indeed gone a great length in achieving your greatest potential. Your great potential as warranted by your true inner worth and identity as I earlier described.

        My goal and my vision is to bring awareness to the underlying unity of our faiths and convictions and help ignite the power of our hearts and minds to transform our world. This is my challenge to you also. To translate and contribute the power of your beliefs and convictions of the truth as you know it, in a universal language that avoids bias like prejudice, close minds and uncaring concern; in matters that deals with our mutual interests. If other people do or not believe about our way to heaven or their peril to hell, then this is not part of our mutual interests. continued ... 1 of 2
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        Jun 26 2011: Amazingly, when we talk only about mutual interests of basic human rights and advancing the principles of freedom, justice and truth to guide our system of government and business, we may all in the end merit to go to heaven whether we believe it or not.

        We do all believe in God or something or some idea or concept that would describe God anyway. We should all be moving in the same path, for there is indeed a clear path. We just need to clear and brighten it with the power of our ignited hearts and minds. http://Bit.Ly/ThePowerInfo
        • Jun 27 2011: Dear Joe Delsen,
          you re right.
          We just need to clear and brighten it with the power of our ignited hearts and minds.
  • Comment deleted

    • Jun 26 2011: Dear Iqbal nazir,
      "Fondling a child by a 53 yr old man is not a good precedent for religious upbringing."
      Agree. If you mean prophet it is not real. Prophet married Aisha at age of 15-17 and it was not bad in culture of that time and that place. Also that marriage was imposed to prophet and prophet accepted it for political reasons and making unity in Muslims. Prophet had only one young wife Aisha and other were not young. Also I replied this many times before please read them.

      "Please do not say what you don't know about God/Allah. "
      Which of my saying exactly you mean? Do not talk general.

      I ask you research about marriage of prophet from a valid source.
      Distance of lie and truth is 4 finger. Not all you hear is true.
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    Jun 24 2011: Selected lyrics from the Tony award winning Broadway show, "The Book of Mormon . :)
    Title: I Believe link to song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfTlyuZphf8&feature=player_detailpage


    I believe that the Lord, God, created the universe.
    I believe that He sent His only Son to die for my sins.
    And I believe that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America

    I believe that God has a plan for all of us.
    I believe that plan involves me getting my own planet.
    And I believe; that the current President of The Church, Thomas Modson, speaks directly to God.

    I believe that Satan has a hold of you
    I believe that the Lord, God, has sent me here
    And I believe that in 1978, God changed his mind about black people!

    I believe that God lives on a planet called Kolob.
    I believe that Jesus has his own planet as well.
    And I believe that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri.
    If you believe, the Lord will reveal it.
    And you'll know it's all true. You'll just feel it.
    You'll be a Mormon
    And, by gosh!
    A Mormon just believes!
    Oh, I believe.
    I believe.
    /////////////////////////


    The church of latter day saints believe some interesting stuff too. Same god even....

    This makes me want to be a Mormon. Not like "for the rest of my life" kind of thing, but more like a few weeks to see what it is like. We'll call it summer recreational research.
  • Jun 23 2011: Dear Christophe Cop,

    SOME facts of Koran:
    1- It was opposite of most scientific and nonscientific beliefs of people of 1400 years ago that leaded to wars between prophet and Arabs. So Koran was not copied. People had 360 God and stars were daughters of God and many more silly beliefs. I suggest study context of Arabia at that time.
    2- Koran said earth is round
    3- Koran said sun will turn off one day
    4- Koran has many amazing numbers in words letters ,.. that makes many amazing facts.(more than accidental)
    5- Koran says sun is moving
    6- It is 1400 years Koran is shouting http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:88 and Koran has many enemies but no one claimed could. Many tried but it was not more than joke. (themselves accepted. Fact in history until now)
    Koran said human can pass layers of skies and earth and can go to skies but needs some power. and even said human can control moon and sun and what are in skies:
    http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/55:33
    http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/45:13

    7- Koran describes the steps of growth of fetus in womb in 7 presise.
    8- Koran appeared in city of Mekka that many conservative Jews and Christians also lived there and they had high power. Also many enemies of prophet among Arab all were trying to disprove and destroy new prophet. Koran may times claimed you can not make a book or a chapter like Koran. Indeed if they could they made a book similar to Koran against Koran to not cost for war. But there is not still any book similar Koran.
    9- Koran was said during 23 years by prophet. You know the ideas of a writer changes over time. But Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict.
    10- There is many facts in history many famous people in Arab wanted to destroy Koran but no one could.
    11- There is no proved conflict in Koran with science.

    And many more. Each item has longer explain.

    Pick any you like.
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      Jun 23 2011: Let's say for a moment that everything in the Koran is true.

      So what? Nice book. Use it along with the many many other books and knowledge that we also know to be true. Why must it be the ONLY book of truth?

      You and I have exchanged ideas often over the past couple of months and I feel I know you to a certain degree, as you must me!!

      Although you sound to me to be quite well versed in the Koran, knowing you as I do, I'm sure your response will be that you are not - that there is still much for you to learn from the Koran. OK, that may be true, but I think it is a crucial mistake to think the Koran is the only source of guidance for living life.

      That's why I keep saying, "Life is passing you by. Time waits for no one."

      There is so much more to experience and learn than the religious teachings of the koran or any other one book.
      • Jun 23 2011: Dear Jim,
        humans are two kind:
        some want to know truth.
        some not care about truth.

        from both many like to find some ways to make themselves calm about truth and internal suffers.
        I feel many people on TED basically do not want to find truth. or only want to find something like theories to calm themselves.

        why we want to find truth?
        if you find the truth what then will do?
        many people know the truth but still do not change their life based on that truth because some times truth says you should give up some enjoys and some benefits.
        are you ready to change your life as truth says you?
        or you only claim as a slogan:
        "I am seeking truth"
        if truth say you you should give all your monies to an orphan child do you accept truth?
        if truth say you you should not drink wine are you ready to give up wine?
        please first decide about yourself how much you are ready to pay for truth?

        "Let's say for a moment that everything in the Koran is true.

        "So what? "
        if so then Koran says there is a God and hell and heaven and you should obey God. do you accept?

        "Why must it be the ONLY book of truth?"
        Koran is not the only book of truth. but Koran is the only book we can be 100% ensured it is 100% truth. other books of truth are partially not truth and we do not know clearly which parts are truth and which parts are not truth.

        "Koran is the only source of guidance for living life."
        when I said the only?
        wisdom is other
        also others exist

        "Life is passing you by. Time waits for no one."
        agree. so we should decide about Hell and God before we die and lose opportunity of life.
        please not you could born a stone or a tree. but you worn human and this is an opportunity that stones does not have. but there is no Hell for stones. they have no wisdom. Heaven and Hell is only for human because only human has wisdom.

        "There is so much more to experience and learn than the religious teachings of the koran "
        yes, but first should solve basic questions
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          Jun 23 2011: ME: "Let's say for a moment that everything in the Koran is true."So what?

          "YOU: if so then Koran says there is a God and hell and heaven and you should obey God. do you accept?

          No! Are you the Converter????!!!! Something can be true for you but not for me. I seek my own truths.Religions may provide some guidance in terms of how to live life, but less and less so as the years, decades, centuries add up because religions refuse to change as we evolve - It would render them as charlatans.

          Here's what I think: God did not write that book or any other book. God does not write books, make movies, paint, dance, sing, or any of that - we do. People. The only place where God dwells is in my heart. My God is not your God, your God is not your neighbor's God, yourt neighbor's God is not another's God. God is you. Hell is war. Hell is suffering. Heaven is love. Heaven is peace. Heaven is kindness. Heaven is knowledge. Heaven is life. Life is passing you by. Time waits for no one.

          "if truth say you you should give all your monies to an orphan child do you accept truth?if truth say you you should not drink wine are you ready to give up wine?please first decide about yourself how much you are ready to pay for truth?"

          As for paying the price for truth, I pay it every day. It's not easy. But at least I'm getting my money's worth.
        • Jun 23 2011: @ S.R. Ahmadi, You say, "please first decide about yourself how much you are ready to pay for truth?

          talking with people that basically do not want to pay the cost of truth is only wasting time.
          how much you are ready to change yourself based on truth?"

          Let's look at some facts. The Qur'an stands alone, there is no independent historical documents that verify its' authenticity. Not a single historical artifact has been found to justify its claims. There is no reference to Allah, Muhammad, Mecca, or the Ka'aba independent of the Qur'an or Hadith.

          The earliest Qur'anic writings all differ with each other, and they conflict with the present version. Coins from 685 A.D. have inscriptions that don't match today’s surahs. The scripture inside the Dome of the Rock (691 A.D.) also varies. Further, the earliest copies of the Qur'an were written without vowels and the diacritical dots that modern Arabic uses to determine what letter is intended. It wasn't until the late eighth century, more than a hundred and fifty years after Muhammad’s death, that Islamic scholars added diacritical marks to clear up countless ambiguities. In doing so, they chose the letters and vowels - and thus the current words, punctuation, and meaning. They translated what was essentially code into what we are reading today.

          Then there is the problem of the parchments themselves. The oldest fragments date to the eighth century, not the seventh. They were found in a paper grave on the loft rafters of the Mosque of Saria'a in 1972. Aberrations from the accepted text abound, including the order of the verses, textual variations, and artistic embellishments. Gerd Puin, the leader of the German team analyzing the scrolls said, "Revisions are very clearly written over earlier, washed-off versions. What the Yemeni Qur'ans suggest is an evolving text rather than the word of God revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad."

          Muhammad is the only person in all the world that heard its revelations.
        • Jun 23 2011: The perfection claim Allah makes on behalf of his Qur'an would be impossible even if Allah were god. Language is an imperfect tool. One word can mean many things and meanings often change with inflection. Connotation is altered by context, something the Qur'an lacks. Knowing the time, place, and parties to a conversation is required to establish the intended implication. For example, the Classical Arabic word used for fighting could just as easily be translated killing. And the word for virgin is indistinguishable from the classical Arabic word for white grape.
          After saying the Qur'an was so well written jinn and men couldn't conspire to compose the likes of it, we discover that Muhammad doesn't measure up and there is no Qur'an: Qur'an 17:90 "They say, 'We shall not believe you (Muhammad), until you cause a spring to gush forth from the earth [like Moses]. Or until you have a garden, and cause rivers to flow in their midst [like you claim Allah does]. Or you cause the sky to fall upon us in chunks, as you say will happen [like Yahweh did to Sodom and Gomorrah]. Or you bring angels before us face to face [like Abraham]. Or you have a house adorned with gold [like David or Solomon], or you ascend up into the skies [like Yahshua (Jesus)]. No, we shall not have faith in you unless you send down to us a book that we can read [like the Bible].'" This surah was the seventieth chronologically, and yet the Meccans claimed Muhammad didn't have anything to read. There was no Qur'an. There were no miracles.
          Qur'an 3:7 "He it is Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are entirely clear verses, decisive, or fundamental (with established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are unclear or allegorical. As for those who are perverse, they follow the part that is not entirely clear, trying (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it and searching for hidden meanings.

          con't.
        • Jun 23 2011: continued, Qur'an 3:7 But no one knows its explanation or meaning except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: 'We believe in the Book; the whole of it (clear and unclear) is from our Lord.' None will grasp the Message except men of understanding." If no one can understand it but Allah, then why reveal it? Scripture is supposed to be for our guidance.

          The 66th surah is called "Prohibition." Incredibly, it is focused on Muhammad’s sexual indulgences. The only thing it "prohibited" was criticism of the prophet's decadent lifestyle. Qur'an 66:1 "O Prophet! Why forbid yourself that which Allah has made lawful to you? You seek to please your consorts. And Allah is Forgiving, Most Kind. Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows." Here's the rub. Earlier, Muhammad said that his god approved a maximum of four wives, inclusive of sex slaves. But he woke up one morning and had at least six times that number. He needed to prune his harem or get his god to amend the Qur'an - to cut his favorite prophet a deal. He chose the latter. In doing so, he made a mockery of his scripture. But not to worry; he banned mocking in the previous surah.
          The passage contained a fatal line for a prophet: "Allah has sanctioned the dissolution of your vows." A "sanction" is permission or approval. It authorizes or ratifies something. In this context "dissolution" means to abrogate, dissolve, or break. A "vow" is a solemn promise, a pledge or an earnest declaration. Muhammad’s principal vows were that he was the Messenger of God, that the Qur'an was revealed by Allah, and that following his example would lead to paradise. If you are a Muslim and are reliant on these promises, be forewarned: "Allah has sanctioned the dissolution of [Muhammad’s] vows."!!

          Is this stuff really the truth?
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          Jun 23 2011: Elam -- This is some amazing information, much of which I had not been familiar with but much of which I think my friend Richard Dawson would heartily agree with (are you listening Richard?) Very powerful rebuke of Islam. The fact of the matter is that it is not Islam exclusively that owns such disfunctional dogma. Many religions are in the same boat.

          But it will not be seen by SR or others who are so locked into the clutches of religion as anything more than words from the "unbelievers"

          But I certainly hear you and look forward to more of your knowledge on the subject. Afterall, it's knowledge that we are after...
        • Jun 24 2011: Thank you Jim, I have been looking into Islam as of late and I do not find it a credible religion. Other religions may not be any more credible, but Islam is the only one to make the preposterous claim that it is the exact word of God as revealed word for word preserved perfectly, inerrant and unchanged.

          This is a really foolhardy position to take as any mistake or error in the Qur'an will prove that it is a fraud.

          I'm challenging the premise that it is unchanged since it was revealed and showing how that is not true, i.e.:

          In Bukhari's Hadith Collection alone we find a sea of disturbing and contradictory claims regarding the compilation of Allah’s book. There were differing versions, even in Muhammad’s day: "Ibn Abbas asked, 'Which of the two readings of the Qur'an do you prefer?' The Prophet answered, 'The reading of Abdallah ibn Mas'ud.' Then Abdallah came to him, and he learned what was altered and abrogated." This is reasonably clear. The Hadith says that portions of the Qur'an were conflicting, changed, and cancelled.
          .....
          Bukhari:V6B61N513: "Allah’s Apostle said, 'Gabriel [whom Muhammad said had 600 wings] recited the Qur'an to me in one way. Then I requested him and continued asking him to recite it in other ways, and he recited it in several ways till he ultimately recited it in seven different ways.'"

          This frivolity is important because it exposes a lie that sits at the heart of Islam. It’s irrational to think God would shift from a reliance on literate Jewish prophets to an illiterate Arab. The foundation of Islamic teaching is based upon the notion that God chose Arabs because they had good memories. Therefore, they reason, the Qur'an wouldn't be changed the way the Bible was corrupted. All Islamic schools from Alazahr to Pakistan are centered around this position. The Qur'an was forgotten; it was changed and recited by so many people it was corrupted beyond hope before it ever found paper.

          There is zero archeological or historical support.
      • Jun 23 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
        "Although you sound to me to be quite well versed in the Koran, knowing you as I do, I'm sure your response will be that you are not - that there is still much for you to learn from the Koran."
        most Christians have many false Images about God and Islam.
        false Images about God and Islam makes many problems.

        please watch this video to we both have more near view about God and Islam.
        http://www.watchislam.com/videos/video.php?vid=3-Yusuf
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          Jun 26 2011: I watched the video of the preacher who converted to Islam.

          This man's view of religion is an embarrassment!!!
          We here in US see way, way too much of this kind of religious-minded person in our present-day society. Religion to them IS a business. They've shopped around and tried on every religious coat on the rack and then they find one that fits them, that they think makes them look "good", wear it, and declare it to be "the best coat" and all the others as shabby.

          Then they go out and become religious businessmen who convert and collect money.
          Very embarrassing example of human thought and spirit.

          Please, if this is your example of who a muslim is, of what Islam is, keep it far away from me!!!
      • Jun 24 2011: Dear Jim,
        "No! Are you the Converter????!!!! "
        no. I am trying to show truth. concerting is by people themselves. no one can change any one before any one himself want.

        "I seek my own truths."
        How many truth exist?
        is your own truth different of my own truth?

        "Religions may provide some guidance in terms of how to live life, but less and less so as the years, decades, centuries add up because religions refuse to change as we evolve - It would render them as charlatans."
        religion has other things. Religion is love.

        "God did not write that book "
        So what is source of Koran? Muhammad (PBUH) was uneducated and did not write anything in his life.

        "The only place where God dwells is in my heart"
        also Satan dwells in your heart. How you distinguish them in your heart without care to messages of God?
        Many times we are following Satan and we think it is God.

        "My God is not your God'
        How many God exist?

        Hell is disobeying God and obeying yourself and Heaven is obeying God.
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          Jun 25 2011: "How many truth exist?
          is your own truth different of my own truth?"

          Yes it is different.

          "So what is source of Koran? Muhammad (PBUH) was uneducated and did not write anything in his life."

          Somebody wrote it for him.

          "also Satan dwells in your heart. How you distinguish them in your heart without care to messages of God?
          Many times we are following Satan and we think it is God."

          You misunderstood. I was telling you that for me, the only "god" is that immaterial consciousness that allows me to think. Not my brain, but what happens when I use my brain.

          Satan???? What you call "satan" I call bad decision making.

          During childhood catholics are told all kinds of bible stories to help them understand the catholic version of christian religion. The stories are meant to help childfren understand what they are not developmentally ready to fathom in terms of intellectual capacity/ability.

          But as they mature into adulthood they are expected to shed those stories and understand the principles in an adult way, not in the simplistic, child-like way they first learned, but something more nuanced and personalized.
          I am not a practicing catholic by any stretch of the imagination, but to me this is at least better than your child-like, simplistic interpretation of your religion.

          Other than what you read in the koran, do you know for certainty that there is a heaven and a hell?
      • Jun 24 2011: Dear Elam Waltzing,
        "there is no independent historical documents that verify its' authenticity. "
        Oh! What?!
        Do you know anything about history of Islam and Arabia? If you want to read them your life is not enough.
        can you show two different text of Koran?


        "There is no reference to Allah, Muhammad, Mecca, or the Ka'aba independent of the Qur'an or Hadith."
        thousands of old books exist.


        "The earliest Qur'anic writings all differ with each other, and they conflict with the present version. "
        Only one text of Koran exist. At least 500 known companion or prophet memorized Koran as soon as each verse revealed. But different reading method exist. Only one text.

        "Coins from 685 A.D. have inscriptions that don't match today’s surahs. "
        evidence? and what is their text?

        "Further, the earliest copies of the Qur'an were written without vowels and the diacritical dots that modern Arabic uses"
        they are different calligraphy but all were memorized by many people the same.

        "fifty years after Muhammad’s death, that Islamic scholars added diacritical marks"
        Yes but the text was memorized by hundreds with audit of prophet and only one text or Koran exist. Those texts did not have dot but people did knew the dot by memory.

        "Revisions are very clearly written over earlier, washed-off versions. What the Yemeni Qur'ans suggest is an evolving text rather than the word of God revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad."

        " washed-off versions"
        Those versions are not in text. They are in reading method of only one text.

        "evolving text"
        It means same text with mote dot and signs above and under words for exact reading and pronunciation. Does not mean change in text.

        "Muhammad is the only person in all the world that heard its revelations. "
        So at least 500 known companion or prophet heard and memorized Koran with audit and correction of prophet did not exist. Please note memorizing Koran had high reward then and always and Koran was protected by memorizing not by text.
        • Jun 24 2011: S.R. Remember we are looking for the truth here not trying to obscure it.

          Fact: All of the original books which comprise Islam, the Qur'an (Allah's Angelic Recital), the Hadith (Reports from Islam's Founders), the Sira (Biography of Muhammad), and Tak'rith (History of Islam's Beginnings), were first written just outside Baghdad, between 750-923 A.D. (or 120-290 years after Muhammad’s death).

          Yes, these were based on the oral traditions handed down.

          Fact: Not a single document has been f