TED Conversations

S. Ahmadi

TEDCRED 20+

This conversation is closed. Start a new conversation
or join one »

proving Koran

is there any proof that show Koran not from human and is from God?
1- It was opposite of most scientific and nonscientific beliefs of people of 1400 years ago that leaded to wars between prophet and Arabs. So Koran was not copied. People had 360 God and stars were daughters of God and many more silly beliefs. I suggest study context of Arabia at that time.
2- Koran said earth is round
3- Koran said sun will turn off one day
4- Koran has many amazing numbers in words letters ,.. that makes many amazing facts.(more than accidental)
5- Koran says sun is moving
6- It is 1400 years Koran is shouting http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:88 and Koran has many enemies but no one claimed could. Many tried but it was not more than joke. (themselves accepted. Fact in history until now)
Koran said human can pass layers of skies and earth and can go to skies but needs some power. and even said human can control moon and sun and what are in skies:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/55:33
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/45:13

7- Koran describes the steps of growth of fetus in womb in 7 presise.
8- Koran appeared in city of Mekka that many conservative Jews and Christians also lived there and they had high power. Also many enemies of prophet among Arab all were trying to disprove and destroy new prophet. Koran may times claimed you can not make a book or a chapter like Koran. Indeed if they could they made a book similar to Koran against Koran to not cost for war. But there is not still any book similar Koran.
9- Koran was said during 23 years by prophet. You know the ideas of a writer changes over time. But Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict.
10- There is many facts in history many famous people in Arab wanted to destroy Koran but no one could.
11- There is no proved conflict in Koran with science.

they are only some facts about Koran.

**before referring to a verse please read it yourself and do not copy from invalid and biased links**

Topics: God Koran atheism
+3
Share:

Showing single comment thread. View the full conversation.

  • thumb
    Jul 22 2011: I believe there are things that, as yet, are beyond our comprehension (Is there life after death? Is there life elsewhere in our galaxy or beyond? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven? Is there a Hell? Etc.) ; but what I have found out is that to use any religion as the only map for finding out what those answers are is like working with a single, antiquated tool.
    For the most part I've listened to the debate, since others within it had more expertise on the subject. Here are the questions I still have:
    Why would God's Word be so cryptic? And only in Arabic?
    Why would God create a world that includes immeasurable pain and suffering for some but not for others?
    Why would there be so many different religious beliefs, all claiming to be the Word of God?
    How can any book claiming to be the Word of God not include recognition of the fact that our understanding changes as we evolve and therefore come out with subsequent editions to address those changes?
    SR, I can almost hear your responses as I write. Your loyalty to the Koran is, I suppose, noble but in my opinion misguided. We agree to disagree I guess. When I tell you that I haven't read much of the Koran and don't intend to, I say that not because I don't care about finding out the meaning of life and beyond, but precisely because of it. I am fervent about it. I've also largely stopped reading other traditional religious books. I get it. I see what good they can provide and I see their limitations. I get it. I have moved on, I'm following other maps, listening to other people and to my own mind and heart. I am formulating my own thoughts.
    Elam and Richard, I have learned a ton from both of you. Not much in regards to whether or not the Koran is the word of God - I kind of knew that already, having been brought up in a Irish Catholic family. I think what I have been most impressed with is your intellect and ambition to seek answers based on all knowledge - not just one reference. Peace and thanks.
    Out of characters...
    • Jul 22 2011: Hi Jim, I ask the same questions, especially the first two. I'm glad you have decided to comment here, you have an open mind and I'm sure your quest for spiritual understanding will enrich your life as you look into various teachings and see how they square with your mind and heart. Your thoughts have helped me, and I appreciate that. I would like to respond to SR on a couple more threads but I may not have time. For now I would like to close with a few questions which I struggle to reconcile with my heart and mind.

      The Islamic perspective of God leaves us with a God that acts like a tyrant. He threatens and points out with great clarity that he will personally participate in torturing us, his creation, in Hell. Then he offers us a paradise if we follow his guidelines, that is wholly separate from him and contains physical aspects that is assumed to be of interest or value to us. Paradise seems to appeal to what some would want if they still had earthly concerns after death, which I find strange. Heaven in the Bible is spending time communing with God and being in God's presence, which seems to make sense if God is good and the source of all life and knowledge and indeed where we came from. To be fair there is also some depiction's of Heaven in the Bible which include streets of gold etc. As if we humans would be interested in that after death.

      Questions remain: How could God be willing and able to participate in tormenting and torturing his creation in Hell once their physical life on earth is done?
      How is this morally possible?
      How can God do this and also call himself Merciful and Forgiving, especially when he says that the infidel disbelievers will never be forgiven or released from their Hellish torment?
      How can God be Loving, Merciful, and Forgiving and still literally “curse” certain members of his creation? This is decidedly schizophrenic.

      It appears that only if one believes Allah is God first, can you justify this nonsense.

      Con't.
      • Jul 23 2011: Dear Elam,
        "The Islamic perspective of God leaves us with a God that acts like a tyrant. "
        God is both merciful and tyrant (tyrant while Just. without neglecting any little good deed)
        God is not only tyrant. he is tyrant for his enemies who fight God. not fir his friends. all human have equal opportunity in their life to be friend of God or friend of Satan (enemy of God).
        so better to see all aspects of God not only one aspect.
        it is like a fair boss who say: it you work well I double your wage and if work bad I fire you. then a lazy employee say: the boss is tyrant. and a clever says: what a bounteous boss.
        actually believing God is all Love and not send anyone to Hell is not a real Image of God and Indeed is false Image. if so then God is stupid to created world and life and human. from first God could send all to heaven and also if so then what about evil people who do any kind of evil deed and kill other and steal and so on then no punish! this human is equal to a good human who help others and loves humans? no. God is not all Love. God is Just.
        http://www.shiamultimedia.com/englishbooks1.html

        "that is wholly separate from him"
        paradise is not separate of God. humans can meet God in paradise. meeting God is one reward of human in paradise.

        "Paradise seems to appeal to what some would want if they still had earthly concerns after death, which I find strange. "
        human before and after death is same and one soul. only changing body. like changing cloth. and same interests.

        "How could God be willing and able to participate in tormenting and torturing his creation in Hell once their physical life on earth is done? "
        simply!. why God should be as you want? God is not responsible to anyone and do anything wants. this is mind of Jews who want to God behave as they want.
        why not? what is the problem with sending human to fire?
        its like you make a doll and burn it. doll has not any right against you.
      • Jul 23 2011: "How is this morally possible? "
        it is moral. because God said it to humans and gave humans enough time (life) to avoid it. so it is moral. if God did not say it, it was not moral.
        also do not compare the human-human relations to God-human relations. the existence of human is from God and human has no right from God. we should thank God that created us from nothing. but a human can not burn other human and is not moral.

        "How can God do this and also call himself Merciful and Forgiving,"
        God has two kind of mercy. the entire mercy only for life and is for all humans. giving food, water air eye ear think brain wisdom knowledge and so on is for all and is entire merciful. the especial merciful is only for friends of God and God never called himself merciful for his enemies.
        merciful has terms. it is like a bank says: we give loan. OK. with what term? any one can get loan?

        " especially when he says that the infidel disbelievers will never be forgiven or released from their Hellish torment? "
        when God said this? human has opportunity to return to God until his last second of life and God forgive him. one infidel disbeliever came to prophet and became believer while they spent all their life disbelieving and accidentally died same day without even one praying and prophet said he entered paradise because he returned God and God forgiven him.
        this is very amazing:
        http://tanzil.net/#39:53 (all)

        also Satan cheat some believers spending all their life believing at final seconds of life and they die disbeliever and God Hell. only powerful belief with enough proof can pass the hard induces of false beliefs by Satan before death. Satan do his best before death.

        "How can God be Loving, Merciful, and Forgiving and still literally “curse” certain members of his creation? This is decidedly schizophrenic. "
        Love of God is for who obey God and hate of God is for who disobey God. this is clear. God never said his Love is for all equal even cruel evil emperors.
      • Jul 23 2011: if God is righteous so should punish evil people and reward good people. this is clear.
        why God should Love all people even extreme humans?
        http://tanzil.net/#5:100
        http://tanzil.net/#11:24
        are they equal?
    • Jul 22 2011: Again, the Allah depicted in the Qur'an is an unabashed megalomaniac tyrant who forces his will on people. People who choose poorly need forgiveness and guidance but “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”
      Who among us has never done any wrong?

      Allah only does positive things for those who 'fear him and obey the messenger'. All others will meet him in Hell where he will take out his anger on them in violent acts perpetrating endless pain and humiliation that could only come from a source of hatred.

      Why?

      Did the creator of the Universe have such enormous hatred for what he was creating?

      Is he a Sadist torturing and humiliating us for his own pleasure? Humiliating humanity does not make sense in the context of God. Humiliating and tormenting people is negative and hateful energy which simply cannot be justified. Oh ya, 'might makes right', 'the ends justify the means'. This philosophy doesn't work. Life is a journey, the ends do not justify the means. The means, that which you do and think, represent your position in life. Doing bad things to get the result you want is a really poor, if not impossible, position for God to take in my opinion.

      Furthermore why does Allah say the Qur'an's message is a confirmation of Biblical scriptures which bring a message of love, and then change the message to one of spite and hatred. Love is only doled out (if at all) to those who follow his instructions explicitly.

      This scripture leaves me with a quiet assurance that Allah has got it all wrong.

      Gotta go.
      • Jul 23 2011: "Again, the Allah depicted in the Qur'an is an unabashed megalomaniac tyrant who forces his will on people. "
        people have free will. do not you see disbelievers?
        God forces his will to animals. they have no free will.
        believe with force has no value. this exactly why human go to paradise and animals no.

        “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”
        please first understand Koran well.
        what Koran says is this:
        1- God guides all humans EQUAL by sending prophets. prophets are not only for believers.
        2- some appreciate God and hear to prophets and get reward.
        3- some do not care prophets and curse prophets and say prophets are magicians and liars. they worth punish and the punish of them is: “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”

        so please note “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.” is kind of punish for select of them. this is not at first. at first God guides all equal. if you read the past and after of verses you get it.

        "Who among us has never done any wrong? "
        this punish is not for who do a wrong. God forgives thousands times. this is for who there is not even a tiny possibility of return to God and has done so many evil deeds that is drawn extreme in evil and has destroyed all bridges his behind. this is not for all evil people. few people has such condition. God is merciful and does not punish by one wrong. make sure this rule is not for you.
        this is for leaders and heads of evil in world. who are extreme evil with no little good.

        "Allah only does positive things for those who 'fear him and obey the messenger'. All others will meet him in Hell"
        no no. God is merciful. and forgives. please do not make a cruel Image of God. please see all aspects of God together.
        http://tanzil.net/#39:53
        I think you need some balance:
        please see this example of 422 verses about mercy of God to become balanced;
        http://tanzil.net/#search/root/%D8%B1%D8%AD%D9%85

        the mercy of God overtook his angry
      • Jul 23 2011: "Why? "
        because God is impartial ; just ; righteous

        "Did the creator of the Universe have such enormous hatred for what he was creating? "
        this is required for knowing God. if God not do this God will not be known.
        God love himself and Love means "no other" so who disobey God means loves a thing other than God and so God does not love who love anything other than God. obeying unless God means loving unless God. how God love who love a thing other than God?
        how God love who loves food more than God? or money or other things? who gives money to orphan because of God proves that Loves God more than God. and his claim of love is not lie.
        God loves only himself and and who love other thing God not love him. only who forget anything unless God become like God and same as God and God love him. not loving is known hate by us.
        God said:
        who Love me, I Love him. and who I love him I kill him. and who I kill his wergild is on me
        and who his wergild is on me, I myself am his wergild.

        "Is he a Sadist torturing and humiliating us for his own pleasure?"
        not for pleasure. God has no need to pleasure. this is attribute of God.
        its like blue that is attribute of sky.

        "Humiliating humanity does not make sense in the context of God."
        God is not human. human-human relation is different of human-God relation.
        we have nothing against God.

        "Furthermore why does Allah say the Qur'an's message is a confirmation of Biblical scriptures which bring a message of love"
        if you do more and more and more research and research and research you will find [perhaps at end of your life] that both are same message of Love. but if you not interpret Love as you like.
        a true love is what beloved wants. not what I want.
        when you could remove yourself and all be God then you and God are one like a drop in ocean and you become God.

        Hafiz:
        you yourself are your curtain, so stand up from between.

        [it means if you really Love God and leave yourself you meet God. even before death]
    • Jul 23 2011: Dear Jim,
      Questions like "Is there life after death? Is there life elsewhere in our galaxy or beyond? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven? Is there a Hell? Etc."
      Can not be solved using religion. They should be solved by wisdom of each human individually. Religion is the next step. If some one accepted God exist then asks how I can know and near to God. Religion of for nearing and becoming friend of God. Not for replying such questions.

      I try answer your hard questions with my limited knowledge:
      "Why would God's Word be so cryptic? "
      This is for Love. God loves human and made this game (world and life) and wanted to human know and find God little by little not at once. If human know God at once then human was angel and knowledge with no free will has no value. Its like a robot that you copy all the books to its mind. So finding and loving God while you have option to not know God and be evil has more beauty and value in the God-human relation. It is because Love.
      [also a girl shows her beauties step by step to make the man her lover]. This is kind of coquetry.

      "And only in Arabic?"
      Some reply from Koran:
      http://tanzil.net/#14:4
      http://tanzil.net/#41:44
      http://tanzil.net/#26:198
      http://tanzil.net/#12:2
      http://tanzil.net/#39:28
      Also Arabic is very powerful language.

      "Why would God create a world that includes immeasurable pain and suffering for some but not for others?"
      God is Just and gives reward to cover pains. In this world or after death.
      Also pains and sicks are for healthy humans to think and know the value of Gift of God (health)
      "Two gift are unknown: health and security" prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

      Also all humans have pain and problems even rich people. No problem is impossible In this world.
      "life and problems are mixed" prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

      "Why would there be so many different religious beliefs, all claiming to be the Word of God?"
      God built the belief and religion inside the human and human can not live without any kind of belief. Religion is one inner
    • Jul 23 2011: Dear Jim,
      "Why would there be so many different religious beliefs, all claiming to be the Word of God?"
      God built the belief and religion inside the human and human can not live without any kind of belief. Religion is one inner need of human.
      Also belief to a superior being (even a deity or money or cow) is an inner need of human.

      "understanding changes as we evolve and therefore come out with subsequent editions to address those changes?"
      All holy books (like Torah Bible Koran) are the same from same God and the next is the subsequent edition of past. Humans make them different and make them for themselves. Book are for all humans and not for a special nation.

      "Your loyalty to the Koran is, I suppose, noble but in my opinion misguided."
      No problem. I am happy to you help me I understand my mistakes.

      "I am fervent about it. I've also largely stopped reading other traditional religious books. I get it. I see what good they can provide and I see their limitations. I get it. I have moved on, I'm following other maps, listening to other people and to my own mind and heart. I am formulating my own thoughts."
      I do not want you accept Koran and Islam. I only want you start hearing others and using your own think instead of media think for you.
      You have open mind and you worth the name of human!

Showing single comment thread. View the full conversation.