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proving Koran

is there any proof that show Koran not from human and is from God?
1- It was opposite of most scientific and nonscientific beliefs of people of 1400 years ago that leaded to wars between prophet and Arabs. So Koran was not copied. People had 360 God and stars were daughters of God and many more silly beliefs. I suggest study context of Arabia at that time.
2- Koran said earth is round
3- Koran said sun will turn off one day
4- Koran has many amazing numbers in words letters ,.. that makes many amazing facts.(more than accidental)
5- Koran says sun is moving
6- It is 1400 years Koran is shouting http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:88 and Koran has many enemies but no one claimed could. Many tried but it was not more than joke. (themselves accepted. Fact in history until now)
Koran said human can pass layers of skies and earth and can go to skies but needs some power. and even said human can control moon and sun and what are in skies:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/55:33
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/45:13

7- Koran describes the steps of growth of fetus in womb in 7 presise.
8- Koran appeared in city of Mekka that many conservative Jews and Christians also lived there and they had high power. Also many enemies of prophet among Arab all were trying to disprove and destroy new prophet. Koran may times claimed you can not make a book or a chapter like Koran. Indeed if they could they made a book similar to Koran against Koran to not cost for war. But there is not still any book similar Koran.
9- Koran was said during 23 years by prophet. You know the ideas of a writer changes over time. But Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict.
10- There is many facts in history many famous people in Arab wanted to destroy Koran but no one could.
11- There is no proved conflict in Koran with science.

they are only some facts about Koran.

**before referring to a verse please read it yourself and do not copy from invalid and biased links**

Topics: God Koran atheism
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    Jun 29 2011: SR the onus of proving the Quran (is from God) is on you. I have taken each claim 1 to 11 made by you above and shown that there are doubts about each of them.

    Let us take only claims 2, 5 and 6 and show how not only do these claims not prove the Quran but disprove it.

    Claim 2. Even if the Quran said the Earth is round, it in no way proves the Quran is from God.

    However if the Quran says the Earth is flat then it disproves that Quran could be from an all knowing God.

    The Greek mathematician and poet Eratosthenes, almost 1,000 years before Muhammad, not only figured out the world was round but also calculated the circumference of the earth and the tilt of the Earth's axis both with remarkable accuracy.

    He did this only by observations, reason and calculations, without the help of any God.

    I have shown you nowhere does the Quran directly say the Earth is round. In every verse where it mentions the shape of the Earth it uses some description of flatness.

    Your argument of Easts and Wests, are mere observations and from that you can only arrive at a round Earth through logical deductions which the Quran never makes.

    Claim 5 – “Koran says sun is moving”

    Quran 21:33 “It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its ROUNDED course.”

    This again is from observation where the Sun, Moon and Stars APPEAR to move in a CIRCULAR ORBIT around the Earth.

    Again NEVER ONCE does the Quran ever say the Earth is moving. Because then again it APPEARS to be still.

    Take also that the Quran says 18:86 “Until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, HE FOUND IT SET IN A SPRING OF MURKY WATER: “

    And 36:38 “And the sun which runs to ITS RESTING-PLACE…”

    This clearly shows that the Quran thinks the Sun moves in a circular orbit around the Earth and sets in the Earth at night (its RESTING place), EVERYTHING THAT IT APPEARS TO DO WITH THE NAKED EYE.

    Surely an all knowing God would know this was not true?
    • Jun 29 2011: "I have shown you nowhere does the Quran directly say the Earth is round. In every verse where it mentions the shape of the Earth it uses some description of flatness."
      I am sorry for you. you are strong head. its your misundrestanding of Koran. Koran says earth is round.
      another verse:
      http://tanzil.net/#39:5
      in a flat earth how:
      1- night is folded ON day and
      2- day of folded ON night?
      please explain. this is description of flat earth or round earth?
      also about easts and wests and also other verses.

      "Your argument of Easts and Wests, are mere observations and from that you can only arrive at a round Earth through logical deductions which the Quran never makes."
      you are playing with words.
      any kind of observe however it is possible only in a round earth.

      "deductions which the Quran never makes."
      who said Koran made deductions?
      Koran says the result. not need to deductions.
      it is clear that Koran says earth is round no need to deductions.
      it is important Koran says earth is flat or round.
      deductions is irrelevant.

      "Quran 21:33 “It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its ROUNDED course.”"
      show me the Arabic word for rounded in Koran.
      Koran says in they are moving (like a ship in ocean. not swimming) in a PATH.
      it is the path a plant or star moves in universe and not necessarily circular. but possibly circular. it is path. not circular orbit. you are misquoting Koran.

      "Again NEVER ONCE does the Quran ever say the Earth is moving. Because then again it APPEARS to be still."
      I am sorry for you. Koran has at least 469 saying about earth. did you research them all?
      http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%B6
      read these and do not claim what you do not know:
      Koran says earth is moving. example:
      http://tanzil.net/#77:25 (birth with tight wings and moving fast)
      http://tanzil.net/#27:88
      http://tanzil.net/#20:53
      http://tanzil.net/#67:15 (a camel walking docile and calm)
    • Jun 29 2011: "Take also that the Quran says 18:86 “Until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, HE FOUND IT SET IN A SPRING OF MURKY WATER: “"
      found it means APPARENTLY.
      how many times I should repeat? do not you understand meaning of FOUND IT?
      it is kind of saying address of a place (probably Azerbaijan)

      "And 36:38 “And the sun which runs to ITS RESTING-PLACE…”

      This clearly shows that the Quran thinks the Sun moves in a circular orbit around the Earth and sets in the Earth at night (its RESTING place), EVERYTHING THAT IT APPEARS TO DO WITH THE NAKED EYE."
      how resting place means circular orbit???!!!

      [this is my personal idea: there is two possibility about Big Bang:
      1- universe will expand for ever.
      2- one day universe stop expanding and then starts collapsing back.
      and I think in this verse God says the 2 will happen]


      I ask you do not interpret Koran as you like and do not make story about sun and resting at night.

      i do not know really what you are looking for?
      are you really seeking truth or you have other goal?
      this is not behaviour of who is seeking truth.

      I said many times Koran has many verses about earth and if some one really wants to know truth and know and communicate God through Koran and who is honest first independently researches those verses all and then honestly decides Koran says earth is flat or round and what Koran says about sun,...
      but who had disease in his heart quickly searches in Google and first link finds against Koran copies here without reading even one page of Koran.
      if you are really not seeking truth and have other goal please do not waste my time.
      I am seeking who are relay seeking truth. not who claiming are seeking truth. they are very rare.
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        Jun 29 2011: @ SR “if you are really not seeking truth and have other goal please do not waste my time. I am seeking who are relay seeking truth. not who claiming are seeking truth. they are very rare.”

        I am seeking the truth. Why do you say that I am not? Is your definition of truth that the Quran is from God? If you start off with that belief, then any evidence contrary to that belief you will reject.

        Is your claim Quran is from God a HYPOTHESIS or an AXIOM? If it is an AXIOM then there is no debate.

        However if it is a hypothesis then it should be examined like any hypothesis in science. We have accept or reject the hypothesis according to the evidence. Even if one evidence is against the hypothesis, the hypothesis has to be rejected.

        I have only quoted from the Quran and only taken the translations of the expert scholars of Arabic. If the translations are wrong then it is for you to tell me the correct translations of that verse.

        If you are refusing to believe the evidence written in the verses, then SR it is YOU who are not seeking the truth and not being honest. You are not being honest with yourself. You are not admitting the truth which you know in your heart of hearts is true.
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        Jun 29 2011: In reply to my "Again NEVER ONCE does the Quran ever say the Earth is moving. Because then again it APPEARS to be still." You have said:

        @ SR “I am sorry for you. Koran has at least 469 saying about earth. did you research them all?
        http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%B6

        1. Most of those verses that mention the Earth say nothing about the shape of the Earth and NONE of them say anything about it moving. For example the first verse says "Make not mischief on the earth"

        2. IF that statement of mine is wrong it is for YOU to tell me which verse tells us the Earth is moving, not for me to do research and then report back to you. It is your hypothesis that the Quran is true.

        3. You have given some verses which YOU CLAIM say the Earth is moving. Your claim is false. NONE of them say it is moving.

        77:25 “Have We not made the earth a container” – You have said “birth with tight wings and moving fast” where did you get that translation from? (What is moving fast? The Earth?)

        67:15 “It is He who made the earth tame for you - so walk among its slopes and eat of His provision” – You have said “a camel walking docile and calm” I don’t know where the camel comes in but clearly it is talking about men walking on the Earth not the Earth walking anywhere or moving. (Here is the Earth moving slow?)

        27:88 “And you see the mountains, thinking them rigid, while they will pass as the passing of clouds. [It is] the work of Allah, who perfected all things. Indeed, He is Acquainted with that which you do.” Nothing about the Earth moving

        20:53 “[It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out] ..” Nothing about the Earth moving, but giving the impression that the Earth is flat.

        All the translations are from your link only.

        So again if there is even ONE verse that says the earth is moving please show me or accept that the Quran does not say the Earth is moving.

        Show me. Instead of asking me questions, provide some answers.
        • Jul 16 2011: J Ali -

          below you say, "Bin Laden and his like are not Muslims..they did not know anything of the Quran...people will always use what they can for their own good....they are not even human, they are terrorists"

          Please you scare me when you talk like this. Do you realize that is the same logic the Sunis use to kill Shias?

          This kind of reasoning gives them immunity to Qur'an 4:93 ''And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and CURSE him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.''

          Relax a little. Bin Laden and the like ARE Muslims and they ARE human. They may not have the right idea of Islam, but they are Muslims. They may not be nice humans but they are humans. Our fellow man. We must acknowledge this. I don't know what the answer is; Live and let live? educate? show love and understanding? fight them if they attack us?

          Whatever it is, we are all part of the same human family, you, me, them, the Chinese, the African, the European, the Eskimo, the good and the bad. Reason with them and try to get them to do good. God is good.

          Sadly, I think it is the Islamic scriptures that has lead them to this highly negative behavior. They think so too, they just don't see it as negative.
      • Jun 30 2011: SR - Be honest! The sun does not have a resting place, day or night. Therefor the Qur'an is wrong, and that's all it takes is one wrong statement and the whole premise of it being the exact word of God falls apart.
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          Jun 30 2011: Exactly
        • Jul 1 2011: Dear Elam,
          Koran did not say resting point at DAY OR NIGHT!
          please do not misquote Koran.
          Koran only said:
          SUN IS GOING TO ITS RESTING POINT.where is day or night? not said resting at night or day.
          I repeated this many times and again Richard repeat it and says Exactly!
          please look here and show me day or night:
          http://tanzil.net/#36:38
          if DAY OR NIGHT not found please say honestly you are wrong.
          Richard made me sad by this his behavior. he repeats false information after my explains and showing in Koran.

          this is what Richard said and you are repeating it without checking Koran.
          I am sorry for you and Richard. coping from liar links who cut or misquote or mix parts of Koran and make lies. I hope God send lie makers to Hell.

          some people are like housefly. they leave flowers and sit only on smelly things.
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          Jul 1 2011: SR Please understand, by saying the Sun does not have a resting place day or night, it means the Sun does not have a resting place ANYTIME, period!

          He is not saying the Quran said that. What he is pointing out is the Quran says the sun "runs to ITS RESTING-PLACE" and the Sun does not have a resting place anytime.

          Not during day, not during night, not in a billion years, not EVER.

          "Richard made me sad by this his behavior. he repeats false information after my explains and showing in Koran."

          It is YOU SR who keeps repeating false things. I point out the errors in your explanations and yet you continue with your explanations as though they are true.

          According to you anyone who points out the truth, if it contradicts the Quran, is like a housefly sitting on smelly things.

          In your mind I would say beautiful things if I told you I agreed with you, accepted all the unbelievable things you say, and stopped pointing out the truth.

          SR "Koran says earth is moving. example:
          http://tanzil.net/#77:25 (earth is moving like birth with tight wings and moving fast)"

          And the link says "Made We not the earth to be a housing"

          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/77:25

          NONE of them say the Earth is moving!

          YOU are lying SR. Stop lying.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 2 2011: You are all wrong..and sometimes (sorry SR, I love you btw) even SR is wrong..you do not understand Arabic and therefore the Quran..... I am too impatient for these kind of arguments... Ugh! I'm going to burst...! Richard I fully understand your arguments and the answers to them are very clear to me.....I'm just a little impatient to write them down.....I have only recently started to argue by the internet and it hasn't been fun...very frustrating actually...I prefer face to face arguments......how long has this been going on for?!!

          With SR's English, your sad misunderstanding and everyone throwing claims at each other...This is actually getting quite funny...but sad.

          Bye bye.....and if you want to ask me anything about Islam sometime,and you want to know the truth, with no misunderstanding, I am always here to help you out, Richard. Have a great worldly life!!

          :))
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          Jul 2 2011: Dont get me wrong. I love SR too. Its just that he exasperates the hell out of me. (SR thats just an English "expression". English is a funny language - with a lot of funny expressions, like day and night)
        • Jul 2 2011: "the Sun does not have a resting place ANYTIME, period!"
          are you astronomer?


          "NONE of them say the Earth is moving!"
          when they say earth is like x and x is a moving thing it means earth is moving.
          I am not interested to repeat this again.
          you can accept or not.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 2 2011: SR,

          http://tanzil.net/#2:285
          http://tanzil.net/#7:79
          http://tanzil.net/#11:17 -ويتلوه شاهد يعني امام علي -عليه السلام
          http://tanzil.net/#43:83
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          Jul 2 2011: ""the Sun does not have a resting place ANYTIME, period!"

          SR "are you astronomer?"

          1. No but when I was 12, I learned Newton's Laws of Motion. It follows from Newton's first law..
          2. From a reading of that verse along with the others such as "the setting-place of the sun", since the sun sets at night, the resting place it is obviously referring to, is the "murky spring" at the "setting-place of the sun", at night.
          3. In any case the Sun will never stop moving, as I said it follows from Newton's first Law of motion. Why dont you ask an astronomer?
          4. No verse of the Quran says the Earth moves in an orbit, like it says of the Sun and the Moon, which can be seen to move. The Earth cannot be seen or felt to move and the Quran has no such verse saying the Earth moves in an orbit.

          None of the verses you have referred to say the Earth is moving.

          SR "when they say earth is like x and x is a moving thing it means earth is moving"

          But each x they refer to is NOT a moving thing.

          77:25 - a housing, storehouse, repository, receptacle. None of them move, None of them revolve or rotate like the Earth.
          27:88 - we have been through this before. The hills will vanish like the clouds on the judgement day.
          20:53 - A bed spread out, or a cradle, none of them moving, they dont revolve or rotate like the Earth
          60:57 - The Earth is NOT moving docile as you claim. The verse says "It is He who made the earth submissive to you; therefore walk in its tracts" Its telling YOU and people to walk on the Earth. It is not saying the Earth is moving.

          Those are the only 4 verses you have referred to.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 2 2011: Richard, why are you arguing on something you know nothing about? You do not know Arabic or the Quran.....I think you just love arguing with SR...you'r having fun...you are just playing.... you don't understand Arabic or speak a word of it so just leave the Quran and go argue on something you know about..... you are offending me because you are acting ignorantly towards Islam's holy book......Ignorantly in the fact that you know nothing of the Quran and you don't understand what it is saying...The Quran is not for anyone to come and interpret, especially when you are reading translations...Are you not understanding this or are you just playing?...

          I would never argue against Evolution because I don't know a lot about it and If I were to argue you would certainly notice very funny and misunderstood claims by me.....I am seeing these ridiculous and funny claims from you, because you do not understand the Quran...so please stop...
        • Jul 2 2011: Richard, Please don't stop bringing an intelligent, sane, non-deluded rebuttal to S.R.'s tireless attempts to delude the world. Thank you for having the patience to "fight the good fight".

          J Ali, "The Quran is not for anyone to come and interpret"---I say that is exactly what it is for. The current state of the "Islamic world" proves that people take what they want from the book. Instead of Richard Dawson, you should be offended by the followers of your religion who poison Islam's name through their actions which they justify by this book. As far as "ridiculous and funny claims" go, I feel they are coming from your side of the argument. Does this mean I should be offended by you?

          If you want to put an end to the winning arguments of Richard Dawson in these debates with S.R., I would suggest convincing S.R. to stop posting these same debates. Good luck with that one though.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 2 2011: J Ali, "The Quran is not for anyone to come and interpret"---I say that is exactly what it is for. The current state of the "Islamic world" proves that people take what they want from the book. Instead of Richard Dawkins, you should be offended by the followers of your religion who poison Islam's name through their actions which they justify by this book.''


          And who told you that I am not offended by people who interpret the Quran for their own use...killing children, women and innocent lives..They are killing us also.....I am very offended by the people who claim to be followers of my religion and I stand firmly against them..

          If you had read what I was saying, I said that because the Quran is an Arabic book, no one can come and interpret it without full knowledge in all of the subjects needed to explain the Quran...Bin Laden and his like are not Muslims..they did not know anything of the Quran...people will always use what they can for their own good....they are not even human, they are terrorists... And Muslim scholars have always been standing against him, Wahabissm and Terrorism....We stand for Justice.....before America was attacked, we were being murdered for more than 1400 years.....Before New York, Madrid and London it was Karbala were a massacre took place....where the grandson of the prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) and his family (including his baby) and companions were murdered...Before America was attacked, my uncles and grandfathers were murdered one after the other for being Shia Muslims....Please read about our history....we have been oppressed since the first day the Prophet Muhammed died...... Islam is not what Al-Qaeda would have liked you to think it was.....

          ''The fact that you continue to win these arguments ''

          ''Fain would they extinguish Allah.s light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).''

          9:32

          Btw, I don't see any Richard Dawkins here.
        • Jul 2 2011: "Btw, I don't see any Richard Dawkins here"

          Good point. I apologize for my typo.

          I do not apologize for pointing out that being offended by a man who is having an intelligent debate on a subject is totally different from being truly offended by Murderers, rapists, and any animal who tries to pass him/herself off as a human. Save your "offense" for something worthy of it, please.

          To the point you made about your people being killed for years. I am offended by senseless murder. That type of thing has happened and continues to happen in every part of the world in varying degrees. THAT is what offended me, not an argument over the "perfection" of a book.

          I find it ironic that you use a verse from the Koran translated into English to make your last point. I understand it quite well, even though I did not read it in the original Arabic. ...Quite ironic indeed.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 2 2011: ''I do not apologize for pointing out that being offended by a man who is having an intelligent debate''

          I am offended because he doesn't understand the Quran to start arguing about it....Just like a scientist would be annoyed if anyone comes and starts arguing the theory of evolution with them.....making obvious mistakes and so on......

          ''that type of thing has happened and continues to happen''

          Well, to us it has been happening the first day the Prophet Muhammed died....not something new.... The Prophet Muhammed would be the most person against what Muslims are doing today...If you talk of Muslims being terrorists, Murderers....then yes but not all of them....If you talk of Muslims being uncivilized, then mostly yes....why do you think I like that>? do you think Islam teaches us to be like this??

          ''I find it ironic that you use a verse from the Koran translated into English to make your last point.''

          The Quran can be understood through translations, but not enough, not enough at all for someone to start arguing on verses..... I mean, all of Richards arguments are based on no understanding of Arabic..Arabic is absolutely vital to understanding the Quran and arguing on what it says and what it means..The Quran's ideas are open for discussion...but not what the Quran says..you need to be an expert at Arabic, Islam and more to understand what the Quran is saying......

          http://www.shiamultimedia.com/books/english/Ayatullah%20Jafar%20Subhani%20-%20Intoduction%20To%20The%20%20Science%20Of%20Tafseer%20Of%20The%20Quran.pdf

          Read this book please....


          An intelligent debate is only one if the arguments are based on full understanding....what I am saying is that Richard has got no clue what he is saying...because he does not understand the Quran.....I am not offended by the fact he is debating...we love debate...but I am offended by ignorant and unfair debates on the Quran with absolutely no understanding of it....... No one has one these debates, not Richard nor SR....
        • Jul 2 2011: "I am offended because he doesn't understand the Quran to start arguing about it....Just like a scientist would be annoyed if anyone comes and starts arguing the theory of evolution with them.....making obvious mistakes and so on......"

          You hit the nail on the head. I couldn't agree more. Scientists would be annoyed to debate a subject with someone who knows nothing about the facts they need to make their claim.This is quite different than being "offended" by someone arguing the counterpoint to a proposed debate about the "perfection" of a book. Beliefs are not facts. Interpretations are not facts. Who is to say that your interpretation is the one who the writer of the Koran (whoever that was), meant to be the correct one? I say that being annoyed and being offended are different. Be annoyed with Richard if you like, but don't be offended. Again, save your offense for something worthy of it.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 2 2011: ''Be annoyed with Richard if you like, but don't be offended.''

          ''This is quite different than being "offended" by someone arguing the counterpoint to a proposed debate about the "perfection" of a book.''

          ''beliefs are not facts. Interpretations are not facts.''

          Arguing must be through the proper understanding..... The Quran is the Book of Islam and like any other book or branch of knowledge there is a special way to argue on the Quran.....this can only be done with great understanding of Arabic.....otherwise we will keep going on and on with no understanding.....I have said that all of his arguments have clear answers...and that the main reason he is wrong is because he doesn't understand Arabic...I respect the idea of arguing greatly....I respect everyone who argues on anything.....I respect their arguments....but I find it ignorant and a waste of valuable time to start arguing on something you know nothing about.....That is not to say that the Quran can only be understood by Arabic experts...it can be understood by anyone in the world.....just in the right way from the right scholars of Islam who know what they are talking about....I hope you can understand this.....and maybe ''offended'' wasn't the right word to choose..so apologies if that annoyed you...I am just saying that it is very wrong and makes no one a winner as you claim......

          ''Who is to say that your interpretation is the one who the writer of the Koran (whoever that was), meant to be the correct one?''

          I did not say anything like that, I was talking of the moments before actual interpretation, someones background of knowledge into a particular subject, in this case- The Quran, Which Richard has none of due to the points explained. Which makes all his arguments worth nothing...not a winner, no one was....but still respect the way he argues...

          Thanks.
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          Jul 2 2011: J Ali - “ You do not know Arabic” True

          “or the Quran” Not true.

          I have copies of the English translations. I have not read the whole book admitted, because I find it too disjointed, repetitive and boring to read, but I can look up and search for any claims made by you or SR.

          JR “.....I think you just love arguing with SR...you'r having fun...you are just playing....”

          No I would rather involve my time elsewhere but I think this is important. In the meantime, since I do it, I might as well have some fun too.

          I am only quoting the Quran (since you object to the Hadith’s) and using straightforward logic to interpret it’s meaning. If you find that offensive, I am sorry but I am not going to stop, if SR wont stop either.

          I think I have proven my point to any unbiased reader.

          You are not reading a passage right when you ignore the actual theme of the passage to go tearing off after a word and trying to relate it to the Big Bang or the Sun turning into a Red Giant 4 billion years hence, when the obvious meaning is the Sun's daily revolution around the Earth and having its resting place at night in a muddy spring.

          J Ali “The Quran is not for anyone to come and interpret, especially when you are reading translations...Are you not understanding this”

          I am understanding what you are saying all right, but I’m not buying it. (I don’t accept your contention as being correct). This is just a way to wriggle out of the debate or challenge you yourself issued.

          J Ali “I would never argue against Evolution because I don't know a lot about it”

          No one stops you from learning about Evolution and then questioning it.

          Science invites questions and challenges to promote understanding and knowledge. If in the course of these questions and challenges you manage to disprove a theory it is modified to accommodate the new insight.

          It invites questions not submission.

          There is no idea or theory that is sacred in science.
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          Jul 2 2011: Don’t think I didn’t read those passages you quoted to SR, telling him to lay off.

          “Is he (to be counted equal with them) who relieth on a clear proof from his Lord, and a witness from Him reciteth it, …? Such believe therein, and whoso disbelieveth therein of the clans, the Fire is his appointed place. So be not thou in doubt concerning it. Lo! it is the Truth from thy Lord; but most of mankind believe not.”

          http://tanzil.net/#11:17

          Sure that is indeed a great argument.

          And more so when Muhammad and the Quran repeatedly challenge others to show their proof.

          But when they themselves are questioned or challenged for their proof it threatens the disbelievers with Hell Fire.

          Unfortunately for you I stopped believing in the Bogey-man a long time ago.

          Hell may frighten you but not me and not a whole lot of people who have either not been subjugated by that phobia to start off with, or have rationally overcome it.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: '' I am only quoting the Quran (since you object to the Hadith’s) and using straightforward logic to interpret it’s meaning.''

          Firstly I do NOT object to the Hadith and I have said that clearly.....

          I am not trying to force you to stop...I am asking you to, if you want you can continue....I don't really care because you don't understand Arabic....use your logical interpretations of the translations..and then at the end of it all you think you have defeated Islam, the Quran and all Muslims.... I am just trying to tell you how wrong that is...you are ignorant...

          ''I think I have proven my point to any unbiased reader.''

          Yes you certainly have....but I can also be unbiased in anything I don't understand....

          ''You are not reading a passage right when you ignore the actual theme of the passage to go tearing off after a word and trying to relate it to the Big Bang or the Sun turning into a Red Giant 4 billion years hence, when the obvious meaning is the Sun's daily revolution around the Earth and having its resting place at night in a muddy spring.''

          I'll keep it short, you don't understand a thing on the Quran....because you don't understand Arabic...

          ''This is just a way to wriggle out of the debate or challenge you yourself issued.''

          I never issued any challenge....you started claiming things, out of ignorance, and i tried to answer..then I just left you..because I don't argue with ignorant people....

          ''No one stops you from learning about Evolution and then questioning it.''

          I am saying that you don't know anything about the Quran so you can't question anything about what it seems to say to you through translations..YOU don't seem to be learning.

          ''Science invites questions and challenges to promote understanding and knowledge.''

          So does Islam, but not ignorantly and prejudicially... If it so difficult for you to understand this...then don't, and keep arguing.. I am not forcing you to stop.....just that, it won't affect any Muslim or the Quran or Islam..
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: ''It invites questions not submission.''

          Islam invites to submission to God, but only through thought and knowledge...I don't believe that a lot of Muslims of the world have true submission to Allah, because they don't have true knowledge.... it is blind following just like most other religious followers..You are judging Islam by its followers...Islam does not invite to blind following, The Quran is actually the most religious book I've seen denouncing Blind following....and that is why you find our philosophical and Kalam books mentioning in detail the ideas of others, arguing them rationally through logic and then giving what Islam says and proving it.... I invite you to come to our seminaries to see how we teach...

          '' Don’t think I didn’t read those passages you quoted to SR, telling him to lay off.''
          ''Sure that is indeed a great argument. ''

          I don't care if you read them or not..I didn't even post them for you...It was for SR as he is a fellow Muslim brother... You and your claims and arguments are nothing to me because they are based on no understanding.....I respect you...but you are of no value to me.....

          This shows your misunderstanding, who said the verse was an argument.....did I even give it as an argument?! I gave it for SR to read....

          ''But when they themselves are questioned or challenged for their proof it threatens the disbelievers with Hell Fire.''

          Not when they are questioned....but always, Glad Tidings and warnings.......The Quran was never challenged for proof, the Quran was first accepted by Arabs as the words of God... The Quran challenged the greatest of Arabs to produce one surah the likes of the Quran....no one could or ever will....If you don't like that then don't, I don't really care...

          ''Unfortunately for you I stopped believing in the Bogey-man a long time ago. ''

          No, not unfortunate for me. Unfortunate for you...I don't care about you one bit... and I can just ask you to wait and see....Death is not far away..
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: ''Science invites questions and challenges to promote understanding and knowledge''

          Muslims made modern science what it is today.....read our history, read about what is called the Islamic Golden Age.... Do you think we hate science or something?..Islam supports fact...Islam supports truth....Islam promotes knowledge...Please do not look at what Muslims are doing today....I look at them and I feel like cursing them just as much as you might curse them.......There is something above science, something above this universe.... Read our philosophical proofs...read what the likes of Avicenna had to say.... His books aren't even studied in universities today...why? You think we just ''believe''..... do you know how much I hate that thing about Christianity? that someone has to believe even if sometimes it doesn't make sense? Religion is not Mystery... Religion is rational logical and philosophical proof.... If intelligent design is refuted by evolution (as Richard Dawkins might like to say) then he still has tens of others of philosophical proofs to refute.... Lets see him stand against Avicenna...

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasir_al-Din_al-Tusi

          Read about this mans life and tell me where he wasn't scientific....

          Muslims may be changing from good to bad or from bad to worse,yes..they do not always represent Islam..Islam will stay forever..The Flag of the Quran will be here forever..the Flag of God will be here forever....the Flag of There is no God But Allah and Muhammed is his messenger will stay here forever..The same Islam..there will always be people on earth worshiping their Lord and your Lord, we don't care about Atheists ...Muslims might be uncivilized and destructors today ...but Islam is not Muslims....You can keep arguing if you like....with SR.

          Goodbye everybody.
        • J Ali

          • +1
          Jul 3 2011: Iqbal, did you just become Atheist or are you still Hindu? Were you even Hindu before? you confuse me a lot, you just seem to come in at the end of everything and leave differing comments..you give me a well needed laugh at the end these conversations..just popping up from nowhere with your delightful comments...thanks!.. so what do you believe in? are you an Atheist?
        • Jul 3 2011: Richard,
          "But each x they refer to is NOT a moving thing."
          they all are moving things.
          for example cradle. you say cradle is not moving. are you sure?
          cradle is for babies and is moving to baby not cry.
          I do not know what is cradle in New Zealand.
          or ذلول means a calm walking animal specially camel.
          also other words are moving things.
          if you not consider the moving meaning of them then how you translate those verses?
        • Jul 3 2011: "77:25 - a housing, storehouse, repository, receptacle. None of them move, None of them revolve or rotate like the Earth."
          Words you said are not the only meanings of کفاتا. It also has the meaning of a fast moving bird with closed wings.
          How you can understand which of meaning is correct in context?
          Also I do not say this meaning (fast bird) from myself.

          "27:88 - we have been through this before. The hills will vanish like the clouds on the judgment day. "
          this verse does not speak about vanishing or about judgment day. This is your unproved claim that this verse is about Judgment day. Yes there is possibility that this is about Judgment day but also there is possibility it is not about Judgment day that I showed proof that it is not about Judgment day.

          "20:53 - A bed spread out, or a cradle, none of them moving, they dont revolve or rotate like the Earth"
          مهادا does not mean bed. It is cradle which is for babies and is moving go and back to baby not cry. Please search the meaning of مهد

          "60:57 - The Earth is NOT moving docile as you claim. The verse says "It is He who made the earth submissive to you; therefore walk in its tracts" Its telling YOU and people to walk on the Earth. It is not saying the Earth is moving."
          Your verse number is wrong.
          It is http://tanzil.net/#67:15
          Please search ذلول it means a docile animal which before has been wild .
          It is mostly used for a calm walking camel.
          It is normal in Arab to call a calm walking camel ذلول.
          ذلول is a king of camel. For example people say: how much is price of that ذلول? Or I have a ذلول. It means calm walking camel.

          And this verse says: "he is who made earth for you docile"
          It means in past earth was moving wild (perhaps at first stages of age of earth) and then earth became moving calm like a wild animal that then becomes docile.

          Also your translate "It is He who made the earth submissive to you" says such thing. What means "He who made the earth submissive to you"?
          To be hones it does not mean earth
        • Jul 3 2011: Also your translate "It is He who made the earth submissive to you" says such thing. What means "He who made the earth submissive to you"?
          To be hones it does not mean earth before was moving wild then God made it submissive for human? Why a earth needs to be submissive ? Because human needs to live on it. And if it moves wild human can not live.

          But you insist they do not mean earth is moving.
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          Jul 3 2011: ''I am only quoting the Quran (since you object to the Hadith’s) and using straightforward logic to interpret it’s meaning.''

          J Ali – “Firstly I do NOT object to the Hadith ..”

          You do not object to the Hadith whenever it confirms your beliefs, and reject it when it doesn’t.

          The Quran says Muhammad was a perfect human being. The Hadiths and the Sira paint a very different picture, so you reject the bad bits, which are many.

          I am not playing that game. I would rather take the challenge using the Quran alone and not leave you or anyone with an excuse against my arguments.

          J Ali “It was for SR as he is a fellow Muslim brother... you are of no value to me…”

          I reject any ideology that makes you, in your mind, divide your fellow human beings into Muslim and non-Muslim. That, in your mind, makes you superior to your fellow human beings because of your belief. That makes humans into valueless creatures depending on their beliefs.

          Such an ideology can never be the right one for humans.

          You say I am of no value and that you will laugh at me when I am in Hell on the judgement day.

          Though your beliefs are ridiculous and absurd, your feelings, which are generated because of your beliefs, are not.

          I, who you condemn, because I do not believe in Allah or Muhammad, and point out errors in their writings, consider you as a fellow human being and would never wish any ill or harm to you or any stranger who has done me no harm.

          Tell me, why do you think that you are morally superior to me just because you believe in Allah and Muhammad?

          J Ali “Muslims made modern science what it is today..”

          That is absolutely not true. Modern science owes its antecedents to the Greek thinkers and scientists, Archimedes, Aristotle and others.

          Human thought is the product of humans, not Zeus or Apollo, or Ra, or Allah or any other god.

          The modern scientific renaissance and the fathers of modern science Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Dalton, Darwin, etc owed nothing to the Muslims.
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          Jul 3 2011: SR - your arguments are so childish and patently absurd as to be laughable.

          SR "I do not know what is cradle in New Zealand"

          1. The word is Bed OR Cradle
          2. Cradles in New Zealand are not whipped around and around like Earth around the Sun. Is that what is done in Iran?

          "My Lord neither erreth nor forgetteth, Who hath appointed the earth as a bed and hath threaded roads for you therein.."
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/20:53

          It is saying that God has made the Earth like a bed or cradle for humanity and has "threaded roads for us therein.." (though we and not Allah make roads).

          Who in his right mind would interpret that as the Earth moving around the Sun or moving at all?

          Stop this nonsense. None of those verses talk about the Earth moving at all. And none of them speak of the Earth moving in an orbit around the Sun.

          On the other hand the Quran talks about the Sun moving in an orbit, it talks about a place where the sun sets, and talks about the sun's resting place.

          "And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. (38) And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf. (39) It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit. (40)"

          Open your mind and stop lying to yourself SR.

          If the verse is talking about a red sky, it could be talking about the big bang or red giants, but maybe, just maybe, its talking about a red sky?
        • Jul 3 2011: @J Ali, I wish I had ample time to read the entire commentary going on here, but I don't. However, somewhere up there you mentioned that understanding Koran requires sufficient skills in the Arabic language, and going along your trace of thought, some understanding of the culture and history of Islamic world. I absolutely agree with you, and that's why I should point out it constitutes that Koran is not universal and timeless. How would you expect a non Muslim to accept its validity if he/she cannot even understand it? I guess it is something to ponder about!
          Update: I just saw Richard made the same point in a post and S.R. responding by learning Arabic online! However, that is merely an anachronism as I have to first accept validity of Koran and then go learn Arabic but not to learn Arabic and then accept the validity of Koran. That is there is nothing to make me learn Arabic at the first place!

          @S. R. Thanks for initiating this discussion although I try not to get involved with it more than this. I just want to point out I had lived in Iran for years and spend a great deal of deal of it studying Islam. The things you claimed about Islamic Clergy, I emphasize the word Clergy not regular people, are at best deceptive. Their crimes are evident to any human right activist.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: ''You do not object to the Hadith whenever it confirms your beliefs, and reject it when it doesn’t. ''

          There are authentic Hadith and there are inauthentic hadith, this is known by studying very precisely the chain of narrators and studying the matn and so on...... Which is done by a mujtahid and not by me.....

          '' I reject any ideology that makes you, in your mind, divide your fellow human beings into Muslim and non-Muslim.''

          I did not say that he was morally superior to you.. I said I gave him the verse because he understands it..... not because you are different... Because he has read it many times before.. You just want to force yourself to understand the Quran...even if you don't....

          ''I, who you condemn, because I do not believe in Allah or Muhammad, and point out errors in their writings,''

          You point out errors to what YOU understand of TRANSLATIONS...... You DO NOT understand the Quran.. it seems you never will either...

          ''They subjugated your minds in an ideology that you and SR and millions of others are still slaves to.''

          No, I am Allahs slave.....I think rationally of my ideas on God, his oneness, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the rest of Islam. Ali Bin Abi Talib, .Avicenna, Averroes, Nasir al Din Al Tusi, Mulla Sadra and others were not brainwashed...they reached a stage of thought which you will never ever reach...You think we are subjugated in an ideology because you think you have destroyed the Quran through your claims on translations and your ignorant understanding...You are ignorant of your ignorance..and that is what destroys people....I keep telling you, if you want you can continue with SR...just that you are wasting your time.....

          I am not going to argue with you anymore..... When pride and ignorance come together...someone like you is made..you know nothing about Islam..

          ''Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance is the death of knowledge.''

          Goodbye Richard... continue with your hate of Islam and not Muslims..Wait...
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: Dear Sometimes Someone, lovely name....

          ''as I have to first accept validity of Koran and then go learn Arabic but not to learn Arabic and then accept the validity of Koran.''

          Very true.,,and I have been saying that the Quran is for everyone and not just experts of Arabic.... Millions of people who do not speak Arabic have converted to Islam.....they did not know Arabic so how did they become Muslims? the answer is that the message of the Quran is not an Arabic message...it is for all of mankind.....just like any other message... The Quran can be explained fully by Muslim scholars to absolutely anyone....Translations of the Quran do not encompass at all the Arabic Quran..... so translations should really be very very long commentaries with full explanation of the Arabic.. What I was telling Richard is that he is reading these translations and then giving ignorant arguments...then at the end of everything he thinks he has defeated Islam and the Quran....and he then claims that we are running away....if I am running away from anything...it is Richards ignorance....

          For,

          '' Every time I argue with a knowledgeable person I win, Every time I argue with an ignorant person he defeats me.''

          He just doesn't seem to understand this....I hope you can.....Islam is welcome for anyone to question it and argue... but not through ignorance....you must know what you are arguing before you start to..that is obvious.... The Quran's ideas are very clear....Islam is very clear.... The miracle of Arabic in the Quran is not clear to anyone....only to experts of Arabic who -since the advent of Islam- cannot produce one chapter the likes of the Qurans surahs... The Quran's is not giving just an Arabic miracle.....it is giving Ideas through Arabic...the Ideas are important...the ideas can be understood by anyone....but the Arabic may not....there is no problem with that as the Quran is not here for us to just study Arabic...it wants us to listen to its ideas....

          Thanks.....
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: ''this is how you make people follow your religion eh? ''

          What do you do? you just come in at the end of everything with your comments....your comments deserve a thumbs down....I am not trying to make him follow my religion.... He hates Islam and its ideas..all he wants is for him to be right..and all I am telling him is that he is ignorant....If someone comes with an open heart and not a proud, prejudiced and ignorant heart (and that is the worst thing).....then, I will engage in talks with him.. We don't MAKE people follow Islam....it is up to them...their choice.. Richard has made his choice.. not just about Islam but about religion in general......What is wrong with waiting? we are all waiting for something...we are all dying......someday even Richard will die....someday you will die....someday I will die.....We can only wait and see...Life is to death and death is truth...and we will all find the truth at death..and ONLY Allah knows that day....
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: '' I don't think he hate Islam, he just points out the errors contained in Koran and thus disproving its authenticity from Allah''


          He does not point out anything... He is, as I have explained, very ignorant of Arabic and therefore the Quran....... He is arguing a translation... The translation may be wrong because the Quran is not....ALL his arguments don't apply one bit to the Arabic Quran......

          ''You keep ducking his arguments by saying Arabic is essential to understand Koran. ''

          No, I do not keep ducking....I am tired of arguing with him.....he just doesn't want to understand that he is arguing ignorantly.....he just wants to continue with what he thinks is right...I am not trying to force him to stop, merely pointing out his mistakes...

          ''what is your thought on those Clerics who knew Arabic at a masterly level and issue fatwas once in a while?''

          Who, Bin Laden?? Ibn Baz?? I talk of people like Allama Tabatabai like Allama Tabrasi like Jafar Subhani like Muhammed Baqir Al Sadr and like Avicenna...

          Bin Laden was not an expert on Arabic....nor was he on the Quran...

          ''so when one points out mistake in Koran he automatically becomes hater of Islam.''

          No.. But he must point it out in a knowledgeable way... not ignorantly...no one has pointed out a mistake in the Quran...just vague translations... If you want to understand this misunderstanding then read my comments to Elam on ''Allah deceiving in the Quran'' with other verses in those same comments.... Once someone understands Arabic properly...then no argument is in place....And that is why I am saying that no one has won... In fact, Richard has lost a lot of time.....if he has won these arguments....then he still has the QURAN to argue..which he hasn't due to his absolutely poor understanding of Arabic... He needs to have full understanding of Arabic poetry, full understanding of Arabic Grammar and Sarf, full understanding of Balagha...and much more.....which he doesn't and that is why he is ignorant.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: In fact, if you had read my comments you would have known that i am very much against sticking any Quranic verse on scientific fact...I have clearly said this..and our Shia scholars have also clearly said this.......I have only been replying to claims made by others....

          This universe is nothing....Allah is its creator.....and that is the main thing of the Quran...the main thing of our lives is Allah.... I want to see anyone from the scientists standing against Avicenna and his proofs.... Science is one thing and philosophy is another....they are not in conflict.....Philosophy explains Science and its existence..
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          Jul 3 2011: J Ali “I am Allahs slave...”

          What does that mean? Does it mean that Allah descends from the heavens and whispers in your ear telling you what to do?

          No. It means that before you go to the bathroom you consult the Quran, the “authentic” Hadiths and your Mullahs interpretation of them, which tell you how to go to the bathroom.

          That is the ideology invented by men to enslave you under some mythical Allah.

          When you do some act of kindness is it done out of the goodness of your heart, as many non-Muslims and agnostics and atheists, who you condemn to burn in the eternal fires of Hell, do?

          No you quote some verse in the Quran, which promises you heaven if you do it and hell if you don’t, to do it.

          That is the ideology invented by men to enslave you under some mythical Allah.

          Do you or SR think for yourself about the shape of the Earth or any scientific advance?

          No you spend your time studying the Quran, and when some atheist Nobel Prize winner discovers something by using his brain, you claim that the Quran discovered that 1400 years ago, because it said the sky was red and Allah is all-knowing, wise.

          That is the ideology invented by men to enslave you under some mythical Allah.

          @ Iqbal “It appears to me when science confirms a theory, you all of a sudden proudly announce that it was written 1400 yrs ago in Koran. tomorrow if science proves Earth is not moving around Sun then you would also say it was already mentioned in Koran 1400 yrs ago.”

          “Bin Laden was not an expert on Arabic....nor was he on the Quran...”

          Bin Laden was an Arabic speaker. He quoted the Quran extensively in his Fatwas. Everyone quotes the Quran or the Hadiths to do whatever they want to do, mostly to kill, bully, terrify and subjugate.

          Everyone says this is the correct, “True” Islam, not that one.

          But for none of these people arguing, has the penny dropped, none of them has cottoned on (realised), that the whole thing is a man made farce.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: Richard,

          I will not continue, after this, to argue with you...But let me quickly look at what you say...

          You repeated this ''That is the ideology invented by men to enslave you under some mythical Allah.''

          you mention words like invented and mythical....that makes it obvious that you have a problem with all religions -not just Islam- believing in God, clearly because you are an atheist, and that they are all mythical and man made..

          I have said many times that Islamic concept of God is based on philosophical proof that you, Richard Dawkins and every single Atheist on Earth will never be able to refute.... You never even mention these philosophical proofs given by Muslim philosophers such as Avicenna, Averroes and Mulla Sadra.... It shows that you know nothing about Islam or its beliefs..... Islamic beliefs are based on very logical and complex philosophical proofs that you will never want to understand- because you don't want to. After we prove God without doubt... That he has created everything in existence....Everything is his....why should we not be slaves to him? Can we, after proving philosophically that we completely owe our existence to him, not be slaves to him? Being a slave to Allah is doing everything he orders you to do...not seeing other than Allah in everything...because he has that right as our creator and owner..He does not need our worship, he does not need anything. Rather we need him...We are Allah's and unto him we will be returning..We believe Allah only orders us to do good... that everything he tells us to do is for our own Good... We believe Good is in itself good even before Allah orders us to do it... But for us, after we believe rationally in Allah, Everything good is done to be closer to Allah...Heaven is being close to Allah....Our good deeds are heaven....God's acceptance is heaven....Read about Imam Ali's life and his quotes on God...

          Contd..
        • Jul 3 2011: J Ali,

          How many times are you going to say you are not going to comment again to only comment again within hours?

          What does the Koran say about lying? The moral highground you profess is laughable.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: I do good deeds because they are good.....but not only because they are good, these good deeds are a bridge between a human and Allah (remember that we have philosophical proof of God's existence and oneness ) ...so that is why we say that if you do good deeds your whole life with no belief in God, your actions are equal to zero....our goal in life is not anything in life, it is something after life...Life is of no worth..Allah is the goal..Good actions are for us to reach God... To know God.... to be a slave to Allah...that is heaven..Purity of the heart is to live everything for Allah... We worship Allah not for heaven or for fear of hell..we worship Allah because he is worthy of worship... Heaven comes as a result of worship. Hell comes as a result of no worship.... our goal is Allah... and that is why it is considered Shirk to worship Allah for heaven and not for Allah...

          ''Do you or SR think for yourself about the shape of the Earth or any scientific advance?''

          I don't know about SR but for me, yes certainly....

          ''No you spend your time studying the Quran, and when some atheist Nobel Prize winner discovers something by using his brain, you claim that the Quran discovered that 1400 years ago''

          I love science(I'm 16 btw) ..our Muslim scientists of the past loved science...Islam wants us to love science..Muslims were great scientists..but not love for itself....Islam wants us to reach something above science,through science and through ourselves, and that is Allah... Science is but a creation of God.. it is beautiful and magnificent...but in itself it is worth nothing without Allah giving it existence and beauty...Allah is the goal of all goals....

          I have said a lot that the Quran is not a book of science...it is a book of guidance...guidance may sometimes be through science...and I am strongly against interpretation of verses scientifically even when clearly there is no match....because the Quran talks of something greater than science and this universe...
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: ''O mankind! you are they who stand in need of Allah, and Allah is He Who is the Self-sufficient, the Praised One.''

          35:15

          ''Say: Consider what is it that is in the heavens and the earth; and signs and warners do not avail a people who would not believe.''

          10:101

          ''And this world's life is naught but a play and an idle sport and certainly the abode of the hereafter is better for those who guard (against evil); do you not then understand?''

          6:39

          ''Allah amplifies and straitens the means of subsistence for whom He pleases; and they rejoice in this world's life, and this world's life is nothing compared with the hereafter but a temporary enjoyment.''

          13:26

          ''And this life of the world is nothing but a sport and a play; and as for the next abode, that most surely is the life-- did they but know!''

          29:64

          ''Know that the life of the world is only play, and idle talk, and pageantry, and boasting among you, and rivalry in respect of wealth and children; as the likeness of vegetation after rain, whereof the growth is pleasing to the husbandman, but afterward it drieth up and thou seest it turning yellow, then it becometh dry and crumbles away.And in the Hereafter there is grievous punishment, and (also) forgiveness from Allah and His good pleasure, whereas the life of the world is but matter of illusion.''

          57:20


          Finally, I recommend that you read what our philosophers and scholars have to say in their books...Read our philosophical proofs which are based on reason alone, by scholars such as Avicenna and M Sadra..the universe isn't just science....why are you throwing philosophy away.... Also read our scholarly books..Visit one of our holy shrines sometime, Visit Imam Ali bin Mosa Al Redha's shrine in Mashhad, Iran..you are welcome in our homes as a guest...read what we believe in from clear, pure sources..Be pure....I wish you the best of luck in your life....and I hope it will be filled with happiness...

          Goodbye.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Reza_shrine
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: Jason, I said I would not argue....but I am not arguing here...I found it important to COMMENT as an explanation in reply to Richard's last comment.... Maybe because I said ''I will not continue, after this, to argue with you'' you came to understand this..... wrong choice of words I guess... Sorry..

          On the other hand Islam also considers bad suspicion and early judgment of your fellow brethren to be a sin... Good suspicion is a good deed.... e.g. suspecting that your fellow brother is not lying...

          ''O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion; indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another......''

          49:12

          I will not argue, but I may explain and elaborate...
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          Jul 4 2011: J Ali “I am still open to honest questions..”

          Have you had a birthday recently? In science there are great questions and silly questions, but what is an honest question? And what is a dishonest question?

          It seems that any question that acknowledges the "truth" of the Quran etc. but just asks for clarifications is an "honest" question, whereas a question that challenges the truth of your beliefs is a "dishonest" question.

          Example:

          SR – The Proof Quran is from God - because the Quran says the Sun is moving.

          Me – But of course, the Sun can be seen to move around the Earth and set in the Earth. The Quran never once says the Earth moves around the Sun or indeed that the Earth moves at all, whereas it says the Sun moves in an orbit, that it has a setting place in the Earth and that it sets in a muddy spring.

          Can you show me one verse which shows that the Earth moves around the Sun or indeed that the Earth moves at all?

          Now is that an honest question?

          SR “Koran says earth is moving. example:
          http://tanzil.net/#20:53 (earth is moving like a cradle)”

          The Sahih International English translation of that verse reads:

          “[It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out] and inserted therein for you roadways and sent down from the sky, rain and produced thereby categories of various plants.”
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/20:53

          Question: How does that verse in any way show that the Earth moves, leave alone moves around the Sun?

          Is that an honest question?

          Alternatively - My God SR !! That verse indeed shows the Earth is moving !!
          This shows that the Quran 1400 years ago, from the ignorant Arabs of that time, figured out miraculously that the Earth was moving, and it revolved around the Sun.

          How did they figure this out? [Answer (of course we know this) Allah the all-knowing, wise, told them]

          That is an honest question?
        • Jul 4 2011: Richard,
          "When the barbaric Muslim armies conquered and destroyed"
          renaissance was caused by Muslims


          "I know Omar Khayyam better than you. He was no Muslim. "
          !!!!
          he was a great Muslim. All he has is from Koran. His poems are from Koran.

          "Islam discourages knowledge outside of itself."
          100% false. Islam has many rewards and encourages for knowledge and science. Little example: Gaber, Avesina,…

          "If it weren’t for Galileo and Kepler "
          Most of them has root is Muslim scientists.
          Did you know computer was not possible without Kharazmi?
          But also western scientists had valuable tries.


          "People like SR spend their lifetimes"
          How you know my lifetime?

          "your arguments are so childish and patently absurd as to be laughable."
          yes ignorant people usually have such reaction.

          "1. The word is Bed OR Cradle"
          Yes. But mostly it is for cradle and bed OF BABY.
          THEN WHY YOU NOT CONSIDER THE CARDLE WHICH IS MOVING? AND ONLY PICK THE WEAKER MEAN WHICH IS IN YOUR BENEFIT?


          "2. Cradles in New Zealand are not whipped around and around like Earth around the Sun. Is that what is done in Iran?"
          I did not say it is moving around sun. I only say it is a moving bed. This is enough to show that Koran says earth is moving. But you only stick to what yourself want and only say bed. OK. I can not force you accept cradle is moving bed. You are free to deny.

          "http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/20:53"
          why you pick only translates fitting your benefit?
          why not see:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/20:53
          A real researcher considers all and also tries to understand deep meaning of a word then conclude. Anyway مهادا means moving bed mostly for babies.
          Do you disagree cradle is moving?

          "(though we and not Allah make roads). "
          You make by power of Allah.
          It is like that say knife cuts the fruit. Not you!

          "Who in his right mind would interpret that as the Earth moving around the Sun or moving at all?"
          Any one who be honest and accept cradle means moving bed of babies.

          "Stop this nonsense.
        • Jul 4 2011: "Stop this nonsense. "
          Your insist that cradle is not moving is more nonsense. Stop it.

          "None of those verses talk about the Earth moving at all. "
          this is your claim. You not want to accept you are false about moving earth in Koran an try to prove it in any way. Mixing verses. Picking special translates. Befooling ,...

          "And none of them speak of the Earth moving in an orbit around the Sun. "
          I accept this at this time. (now I do not know verse for that). But Koran says earth is moving.

          "On the other hand the Quran talks about the Sun moving in an orbit, it talks about a place where the sun sets, and talks about the sun's resting place."
          oh my God! You again and again repeat same thing without notice or disproving my replies.
          They are different independent verses. Orbit not means around earth. It means sun has a path. Not said around earth. Koran says some one (not Allah) FOUND THAT sun sets in a place. Yes Koran says sun will rich to a resting place. Problem? You are not astronomer.

          "Open your mind and stop lying to yourself SR."
          Open your mind and stop lying to yourself Richard.


          "If the verse is talking about a red sky, it could be talking about the big bang or red giants, but maybe, just maybe, its talking about a red sky?"
          please first prove your claim about Koran saying earth is flat. Then jump to another topic. This is a trick for escaping.

          "Does it mean that Allah descends from the heavens and whispers in your ear telling you what to do? "
          Allah talks trough Koran. Also in sleep dreams (but not to anyone)

          "No you spend your time studying the Quran,"
          do not say what you do not know.


          "He quoted the Quran extensively in his Fatwas."
          oh your beliefs are made by TV. A liar TV.


          "SR – The Proof Quran is from God - because the Quran says the Sun is moving."
          Do not misquote me. I say Koran has thousands of wonder fact and this is only one. Not only this one alone proves. But considering all facts of Koran it proves. What I said in TED are only very few fa
        • Jul 4 2011: "SR – The Proof Quran is from God - because the Quran says."
          Do not misquote me. I say Koran has thousands of wonder fact and this is only one. Not only this one alone proves. But considering all facts of Koran it proves. What I said in TED are only very few facts about Koran. Not all. If some one spend all his life still can not finish learning Koran. Even if by a 1000 years life.

          "The Quran never once says the Earth moves "
          Koran says and I showed you but you not accept. I think an Arabic professional hones (even non-Muslim) is needed to judge here.

          Your repeating same thing without disproving my reply is exactly DOGMA.


          "The Sahih International English translation of that verse reads: "
          translate is for simple reading not for such discusses. Also other translates say cradle. Why you not consider cradle which is a moving bed for babies?

          Also why you not consider other verses I showed you? For example that saying mountains are moving like clouds. You mixt that verse with its previous verse to prove it is about Judgment day. But I said you first should prove they are linked and continuous which you did not care about this reply. And only you say it is obvious for me that verse is for Judgment day! This is prove?
          Also other verse saying earth is like ذلول which is a calm walking camel.
          Also other verse saying earth is کفاتا which had different meaning and you pick meaning in your benefit. But an expert picks meaning according context and other criteria.
          OK you still insist Koran not say earth is moving. I consider this your behaviour nothing but DOGMA.


          "How did they figure this out? [Answer (of course we know this) Allah the all-knowing, wise, told them]"
          If you know my reply before I speak so why you are talking me?
          Do you want I give you my TED password and you write my comments?
          I think you know what I will say in future.
          This is amazing ability. How you got it?
        • Jul 4 2011: Dear Richard,
          please reply this.
          bed has different words in Arabic each are different but all translated bed in English.
          Koran uses both فراش and مهد
          فراش means bed (what people sleep on it at night even Mattress is called فراش)
          مهد means (you say bed I say cradle which is moving bed for baby)
          this is مهد (in that verse مهادا ):

          http://www.up2.ir/image-B9D0_4A6D04C8.jpg

          http://anobanini.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5009&stc=1&d=1286800579

          http://www.iranak.info/Download/DIRDataBase8/632928527080781250_623398_koodak-va-gahvareh.jpg

          why Koran not said فراش in this verse but said فراش in other verses? and why said مهد about earth?
          when Koran uses فراش and مهد in different verses what it means?
          you speak such you seem professional in Arabic. so please answer this.
          I accept مهد (مهادا( means bed also. but it is weaker mean. and main mean is cradle.
          the Arabic Koran is important in research. not translated. translated are not 100% perfect and do not contain all meaning of Arabic word.
          translate is only for simple studying. not for research or for fighting on exact meaning of a Arabic word.
          I wonder why you insist on what you do not know perfect.
          I do not know what is your prophecy. (if you have any. you seem a jobless man filling you time and your life with typing same thing again and again in ted without first disproving replies. I do not know what you are really looking for in ted).
          but if you have any prophecy I prefer not argue in your prophecy which I am ignorant in your prophecy and I prefer to accept word of a professional and not argue it before I really study and know what I want to say perfect.
        • thumb
          Jul 4 2011: "renaissance was caused by Muslims"

          SR you constantly amaze me with your ignorance. All you seem to know are the fairy tales of your religion. Please educate yourself about the Renaissance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance#Origins

          SR "he [Omar Khayyam] was a great Muslim."

          When once you hear the roses are in bloom,
          Then is the time, my love, to pour the wine;
          Houris and palaces and Heaven and Hell-
          These are but fairy-tales, forget them all.
          Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayy%C3%A1m#Views_on_religion

          "Islam discourages knowledge outside of itself."

          SR "100% false."

          No true. Little example SR, the students from your country who are running away to the west, the state of science in Islamic states, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan.

          "Did you know computer was not possible without Kharazmi?"

          I was not taught Muslim fairy tales.

          "Indian mathematician Brahmagupta gave the first explanation of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system and the use of zero as both a placeholder and a decimal digit. Approximately around the year 825, Persian mathematician Al-Khwarizmi wrote a book, On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals, .. principally responsible for the diffusion of the Indian system of numeration in the Middle East and then Europe."

          "Around the 3rd century BC, Indian mathematician Pingala discovered the binary numeral system...still used today in all modern computers"

          Then Leibnitz and then Boole, and the first computer Alan Turing. All that Khwarizmi did was facilitate the spread of the Hindu decimals to the west. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computer_science

          SR "How you know my lifetime?"

          I see your lifetime over here spouting Islam and the Quran. I see your ignorance of everything else.

          "The Quran never once says the Earth moves " true.

          Your translation "He who appointed the earth to be a cradle for you, and therein threaded roads for you,.."

          Only a fool would say that means the Earth is movin
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jul 4 2011: ''Have you had a birthday recently?''

          Yes. thanks! That was a great question btw...
        • Jul 4 2011: "Please educate yourself about the Renaissance. "
          also you. please open your eyes and read:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe
          "Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe were numerous, affecting such varied areas as art, architecture, medicine, agriculture, music, language, education, law, and technology. "
          the books of Muslim scientists were heavily translated and it was base for Renaissance. Most of today techs have root in works of Muslims scientists.

          Also read:
          ***The Twelfth Century Renaissance: contact with Islamic science and learning awakened dormant European mental activity.
          http://www.medievalhistory.net/scientia.htm


          "SR "he [Omar Khayyam] was a great Muslim.""
          you read poems apparently. But do you know what means Khayyam by wine?
          not all understand his poems.
          The wine is "knowing God"
          When a Muslim reaches to high levels of knowing God that knowledge make them drunk . But not from alcohol. From enjoying of being near of God. Nearing to God is by high knowledge of God.
          They never drink one drop of alcohol.
          First understand meaning of poems then quote them.
          Each poem of them is from one verse of Koran. But in poem language.
          I think this is 3th time you say this about Khayyam and I before showed your poems from him showing mean of wine and proving he was Muslim. But you like always again and again repeat with no notice to my replies.

          You do not know Khayyam.

          ""Islam discourages knowledge outside of itself."

          SR "100% false."
          Koran and prophet saying has many many encourages to knowledge.
          few of them:
          http://www.ted.com/profiles/bio/id/892832
          So what are so many Muslim scientists in history?
          please

          "Little example SR, the students"
          yes but it is not as large as liar media make it big. Please compare it with England. Iran has very high number of students and education in Iran is free.
          Also Iranians want to catch knowledge of other countries.
        • Jul 4 2011: "I was not taught Muslim fairy tales."
          computer and Internet is based on works of:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%E1%B8%A5ammad_ibn_M%C5%ABs%C4%81_al-Khw%C4%81rizm%C4%AB

          "
          According to a prominent German journalist, Internet infrastructure based on the findings Khwarizmi, the Muslim scholar and founder of the science of algebra is established.

          The report quoted Alshrvq Aytna, Wolfgang Gunter Lrsh, editor of the German newspaper Frankfurter Lgmaynh Tsaytvng, said if the theories and concepts raised by a Muslim scholar, Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa Khwarizmi was not in today's world of computers and the Internet did not know.

          Kharazmi Persian astronomer and mathematician of great scientists who called him the father of algebra.

          According to the report, some prominent figures in science, mathematics, computer science as the intellectual father of the famous scientist.

          Lrsh said Khwarizmi's works translated into Latin in medieval Europe, new ideas and helped to achieve their current accounts in the math and science."

          http://www.fundacionbankinter.org/system/documents/8193/original/Chapter_3_Understanding_the_three_basic_layers.pdf

          "I see your lifetime over here spouting Islam and the Quran. "
          this is only a small part of my life.

          "Only a fool would say that means the Earth is movin"
          I am sorry for you. I am talking you rational and respectful. And showing you enough proof and evidence. And you reply according to your personality. It is usual when you can not reply my by proof.
        • thumb
          Jul 4 2011: SR
          1. You suffer from confirmation bias. You will see a splotch of ink and it will appear to you as miracle of Islam.

          2. Islam permits lying (Taqiyya) to deceive the enemy (non-Muslims) during war. According to Islam, Islam is in a constant state of war with Dar al Harab – the non-Muslim world and hence it is not sin to lie to us.

          3. Lying is the greatest sin in Science.

          4. The article you referred to Re: “Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe” contains a warning “This article may misquote or misrepresent many of its sources. Please see the cleanup page for more information.”

          5. The cleanup page says “A major cleanup is ongoing relating to Jagged 85 (talk • contribs) who has made over 63,000 article edits since 2005. It has been found that many edits involve the undue promotion of Islamic and other non-European scholarship and achievements. In addition, there has been a severe misuse of sources: misrepresenting what a source has asserted; reporting only one side from a source; quoting out of context; inventing claims using a source related to the topic but which does not verify the claim.”

          6. “With contributions to over 8,100 separate articles, it is unlikely that all of Jagged 85's edits will ever be fixed. And even if they were, these Wikipedia articles have already been reproduced all over the net by other sites which use Wikipedia as a source.”

          7. “Besides Jagged 85, other problems at Wikipedia include the use of some very suspect and pro-Islamic secondary sources, such as Paul Vallely's "How Islamic inventors changed the world", which is used as a source to validate false (and often absurd)[1] claims of Islamic inventions in over twenty separate articles,[2] and the use of a fraudulent translation of Muhammad's 'Farewell Sermon', along with a second version, without a primary source. Attempts to add the authentic version taken from al-Tabari, Vol IX, next to the other two at Wikipedia, were met with resistance and was ultimately unsuccessful.”
        • thumb
          Jul 4 2011: 8. “..this and the other examples cited above, highlight the constant problems that Wikipedia faces for Islam related articles.”

          9. Your Wikipedia link to Khwarizmi says “Another epithet given to him by al-Ṭabarī, "al-Majūsī," would seem to indicate that he was an adherent of the old Zoroastrian religion.”

          Of course Muslims will claim he was a Muslim.

          In any case the article does NOT say that computers would not be possible but for him. That is ridiculous.

          The quote you have given is not from the article but “a prominent German journalist”. Journalists are not sources of original “knowledge”.

          9. SR “do you know what means Khayyam by wine?.. "knowing God"

          I see and what did he mean by “Houris and palaces and Heaven and Hell- These are but fairy-tales, forget them all”?

          That is not the only verse, almost every verse he mocks Islam. For example:

          “And that inverted Bowl they call the Sky,
          Whereunder crawling coop'd we live and die,
          Lift not your hands to It for help--for It
          Moves as impotently as you or I.”

          “Each poem of them is from one verse of Koran. But in poem language.”

          Khayyam was a smart guy. He well knew the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death.

          Your “proof” that the Quran says the Earth is moving:-

          “He who appointed the earth to be a cradle for you, and therein threaded roads for you, and sent down water out of heaven, and therewith We have brought forth divers kinds of plants.”
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/20:53

          Yeah right!
        • Jul 5 2011: Iqbal?
          "where did your role model get his idea. Your role model "
          he had many references including Indian. So what? You want to get tax for Indian references? Indian scientists did not use any Iranian reference? This is off topic.
          Any scientist uses past works and develops science.
          He is not my role model. He is one example of thousands.
          Only in medicine there is at least 5000 famous book like book of "Canon of medicine" of Avecina from old Iranian scientists.

          What you want to prove?
          Indian scientists? OK I already accept. I am not enemy of Indian scientists.

          Richard,
          "1. You suffer from confirmation bias. You will see a splotch of ink and it will appear to you as miracle of Islam."
          I said only one example of thousands. Anyway this is off tioc. You can start new topic for it.

          "Islam is in a constant state of war "
          this not allow lie. Lie is allowed in when a Muslim captured in battle war. Not always as you say.

          "Please see the cleanup page for more information.”"
          yes. but this not change the matter. There are many valid references for huge translation of Islamic books. I am happy for this. Spreading knowledge is always good.
          Also you know the power of church and pressure on scientists like guallilo.
          What destroyed power of church and pressure on sciense? Islam made fought curch and made situation ready for runessance.
          Anyway this is off topic.

          "The cleanup page says"
          OK. but this is only for clue. If you interested start new topic. Many refrences exist. And long list of translated books.

          I am not fan of Jagged 85 but this not change matter.
          You also use link of wiki.

          "constant problems that Wikipedia faces for Islam related articles"
          It is problem of western users of wiki with Islam. Not wiki itself.


          "would seem to indicate that he was an adherent of the old Zoroastrian religion.” "
          yes seem. anyway Iranians before Islam were Zoroastrian. Perhaps his fathers was. But he himself is famous Muslim.

          "In any case the article does NOT say that computers would
        • Jul 5 2011: "In any case the article does NOT say that computers would not be possible but for him"
          his science specially algebra had a great contribution in computer.
          the word "algorithm" which is used in logic of any computer is the western word from name of this scientist?
          Do you know a computer without algorithm?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra

          "“a prominent German journalist”."
          He is not only a journalist. He is specialist in Islamic history also.

          "I see and what did he mean b “Houris and palaces and Heaven and Hell- These are but fairy-tales, forget them all”? "
          you should not take them literally. Please write Persian poem to I reply you. I do not understand well in English. I think it means do not pray God for heaven but pray God for only Love of God and leave low level rewards like houri. God itself is best reward.

          "That is not the only verse, almost every verse he mocks Islam."
          Agree. But not take them literally. Write me in Persian to I explain the meaning of poem. They are all metaphor .

          "Khayyam was a smart guy. He well knew the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death."
          Yes all know this. So what? Do you have any prove he was apostasy?
          This is off topic. Please start new topic for poems.

          "Your “proof” that the Quran says the Earth is moving:-"
          that translate alone was not my proof.difference of فراش & مهد was also in my proof.
          I meant not pick a translate fitting your benefit and consider all translates. also translations are not suitable for research. and a Koran researcher should know Arabic. Arabic is much more complex to be understood by translate.

          Iqbal,
          "S.R, so i hear you are liars."
          Why I am liar?!
          Because Muslims translated 2 Indian book?
          what is the relation?!!
          I do not remember I said Muslims did not translate 2 Indian books.

          why you think I have problem with Indian scientists?
          All Scientists use other references and develop science.
          I love all people of knowledge and science.
          All peoples are beholden to all scientists and teachers.
        • Jul 5 2011: Richard,
          I agree Einstein,
          but calling others stupid is easy. but some times we are stupid that think others are stupid.
          anyway if you have any proof Khayyam was apostasy I happy to see it.
          also I have many proof he was a great Muslim.
          and poems should not be taken literally.
          if he really was apostasy and so much brave to declare his apostasy in his poems so a simple question:
          why he was not killed?
          this is contradiction.
          one time you say he was not Muslim and your proof is his poems.
          one time you say he was smart guy. He well knew the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death.
          so if he was smart why so clear say in poems he drink wine ,....?
          if he was afraid being killed Indeed he did not make such poems.
          all Iranians know what wine means in his poems. and no one wanted to kill a poet for such poems.
          did you know:?
          Khayyam had both Arabic and Persian poems.
          Khayyam was called: Imam of Khorasan, philosopher, Guide of God
          Khayyam was a follower of Avesina in philosophy
          Khayyam translated one of the famous speeches of Avesina in oneness of God.
          Khayyam was a Islamic leader (marja) (who knows the sharia laws perfect and people ask him)
          Sufi people of his time considered Khayyam a Sufi.
          now his tomb is a famous place in Iran and people meet there. (if he was known as apostasy his tomb would be destroyed until now)

          http://tanzil.net/#57:23
          yesterday passed, do not remember it
          tomorrow that has not come yet do not shout
          do not build on not came and past
          be happy the moment and do not waste time.

          http://tanzil.net/#25:6
          http://tanzil.net/#86:9
          the eternal secrets not you know not me
          and this puzzle saying not you know not me
          the talk of me and you is from behind curtain
          when curtain falls not me remain not you

          http://tanzil.net/#74:38
          http://tanzil.net/#52:21
          if I am drunk from wine of Moghan
          if I am infidel or pagan or ilolater
          each group has guess about me
          I am what I am by myself
        • Jul 5 2011: http://tanzil.net/#14:32
          who made sky and earth and orbits
          much pain made on sad heart
          made many lips like ruby and hairs like musk
          in the drum of earth and trick of soil

          Khayyam always reminds death that this is what Prophet and God sayd:
          "increase remembrance of death"
          prophet

          http://tanzil.net/#29:57
          http://tanzil.net/#6:61

          about human:
          http://tanzil.net/#23:14
          http://tanzil.net/#2:28
          there is a cup that creation wisdom made it
          hundred kiss of love made on his brow
          the potter universe such a beautiful cup
          makes and again hits it on land

          some groups of Muslims did not understand philosophy and said philosophers are nonbelievers and pagan. and phylosophist had a special meaning. they called Khayyam phylosophist.
          Khayyam said:
          the enemy said in false that I am phylosophist
          God knows I am not what he said
          دشمن به غلط گفت که من فلسفیم
          ایزد داند که آنچه او گفـت نیم
          لیکن چو در این غم آشیان آمده‌ام
          آخر کم از آنکه من بدانم که کیم
          http://tanzil.net/#40:19

          other poem defining metaphors by Khayyam himself:
          چندانکه نگاه می کنم هر سویی
          در باغ روان است ز کوثر جویی
          صحرا چو بهشت است ز کوثر کم گوی
          بنشین به بهشت با بهشتی رویی

          translate is something like this:
          when I look around
          in garden is a river from Kowsar (a special pool in Heaven)
          Deseret is like Heaven, say less about Heaven
          sit in Heaven with a Houri

          this poem says there is no need to wait for death to enjoy Heaven. right now you can feel they enjoys of heaven by having close relation to God.
          for example here Khayyam says I already see the Heaven every where.
          if you be a friend of God your spiritual eye opens and you see Heaven around yourself already before death.

          considering this then read this:
          Some for the Glories of This World; and some
          Sigh for the Prophet's Paradise to come;
          Ah, take the Cash, and let the Promise go,
          Nor heed the Rumble of a distant Drum!

          again and again:
          do not take Khayyam poems literally. they are metaphor.
          people who want to justify drinking wine (even some Muslims) abuse Khayyam
        • thumb
          Jul 5 2011: Dear SR I was just generally reflecting on the wisdom and observation of Einstein. Not any reflection on you.

          "why he was not killed?"

          Because he was much smarter than the Clerics of his time who would have killed him. For example he convinced them that when he talked about wine, he was talking about "knowing God" and when he said “Houris and palaces and Heaven and Hell- These are but fairy-tales, forget them all” he said it meant - do not pray God for heaven but pray God for only Love of God.

          And the Clerics of his time believed him. But for even the slightly intelligent his message was clear. I have his entire Rubaiyat.

          PS None of those verses remotely matches those of the Quran.

          Quran "And those who believed and whose descendants followed them in faith - We will join with them their descendants, and We will not deprive them of anything of their deeds. Every person, for what he earned, is retained."

          Khayyam "if I am drunk from wine of Moghan
          if I am infidel or pagan or ilolater
          each group has guess about me
          I am what I am by myself"

          Those people who he convinced were not very intelligent.

          "when curtain falls not me remain not you" No heaven no hell

          "One thing I know that time flies
          One thing is true the rest is lies
          A rose that once has bloomed
          Forever dies"

          Iqbal - remove one sentence from your post. Be wise. There are things you cannot say.

          Also SR Avicenna was no doubt a very intelligent man and a great scientist before his time, but he was not infallible. For example he said that the planets shone with their own light and he based that on the Quran. Also his science was advanced for that time, but doesnt compare with modern science.

          The same with Khwarizmi. Khwarizmi may not have been a Muslim and Islam had nothing to do with the achievements of these people.

          They achieved what they did despite Islam not because of it. What Islam is doing to your country is very apparent to everyone and that is what it has been doing to people since its birth
        • Jul 5 2011: "Dear SR I was just generally reflecting on the wisdom and observation of Einstein. Not any reflection on you."
          sorry for my misunderstanding about you. I apologize you.

          "Because he was much smarter than the Clerics of his time who would have killed him. For example he convinced them that when he talked about wine, he was talking about "knowing God"..."
          OK this is welcomed as a hypothesis. I hope you have enough proof for your hypothesis.

          yes Avicenna Khwarizmi Khayyam Hafiz Rumi and thousands other which are not famous in west All were great and Intelligent Humans. and no one said they were infallible. this is clear. they should be compared to their own time.
          also Einstein was not infallible.

          "Also his science was advanced for that time, but doesnt compare with modern science."
          I disagree this. the Avesina knowledge is still up to date. many drugs which have secret formula are made from his books. companies does not buzz this but they use Avesina formulas and sell them you at high price.

          "They achieved what they did despite Islam not because of it. "
          disagree. just show me some like them in Iran before Islam enter Iran.
          if no Islam they did not exist. Islam encourages knowledge and science very much. if 8 years Iran-Iraq war that destroyed Iran was not imposed to Iran and if Iran was not under sanction and pressure by world then I showed you thousands of Avesina to you today.
          today Iran is under pressure of world/sanctions/UN/US/Israel/media/TV/Hollywood/Internet/war/terror of Iranian scientists and many more pressure. no bank in world accept any transaction to or from Iran and many more problems. Iran is still building the destroys of Iran-Iraq war. the war between two Muslim country made by US and supported by near all countries.
          in such consolidation how people can be free to pay attention to science and knowledge?
          in such sanctions and economic problems people are working for food and min. life but hope to God and stand all pressures because of God
        • thumb
          Jul 5 2011: SR your comprehension is not very good.

          All those verses you have quoted are mocking God and the empty promises of heaven and threats of hell.

          "sit in Heaven with a Houri" does not mean "right now you can feel they enjoys of heaven by having close relation to God." It means that be in the company of a good liberated woman and you will be in real heaven, not the fictional heaven invented by Muhammad.

          PS also reading your passages about the Quran I came across this:

          "And He subjected for you the sun and the moon, continuous [in orbit], and subjected for you the night and the day."

          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/14:33

          Clearly talking about the orbit of the sun about the Earth, you have to be blind or totally in denial not to see that.
        • Jul 6 2011: Richard,
          "All those verses you have quoted are mocking God and the empty promises of heaven and threats of hell."
          please reconsider.

          ""sit in Heaven with a Houri" does not mean"
          1- some Muslims right now before death can see Heaven around themselves and can see Hell around some people when they are walking but that people themselves do not see. (not imaginary or metaphor. they really see)
          such believers have a two dimensional vision they see both universe at same time.
          like people who have NDE visions. but such believers always see other universe (Heaven,...) for example: http://goo.gl/f47ZC

          2- I translated بهشتي رويي to Houri. but now I see it was not a perfect translate. let explain that poem detail:
          if you want to understand this poem well first you should know Kausar well:
          please read this about kausar http://goo.gl/hoxQn
          Kausar generally means all benefits and heritage of Muhammad (PBUH) including his large children (I am his children also) today and also the knowledge left from him and the scientists trained in Islam and any kind of benefit left after prophet.

          2- at Judgement day there is no sun nor light nor water and people seek little water to drink. and the only one has water is Muhammad (PBUH) which has a large pool of drinking water and there are guards that limit nonbelievers from cumming near Kausar pool.
          and prophet drinks water to his followers and believers.
          the water of Kausar is a reward for learning knowledge of prophet and following him.
          Kausar is an unlimited pool of absolute Knowledge from God in this world and water in Judgement day.

          when Kayyam says
          چندانکه نگاه می کنم هر سویی
          when I look around
          در باغ روان است ز کوثر جویی
          in garden [=world, which has many rivers (different channels of knowledge)] flows a river [one source of knowledge like a book or a speaker who is a great follower of prophet which has knowledge from prophet like Avesina or...] from kausar [a river from pool of knowledge of prophet]
        • Jul 6 2011: صحرا چو بهشت است ز کوثر کم گوی
          desert [world] is like Heaven [because if you follow knowledge of prophet you are already in Heaven. (Heaven already exist only you should decide to be in it)] do not talk about Kausar [instead of talking work and learn knowledge and do deeds that you can have Kausar]
          بنشین به بهشت با بهشتی رویی
          sit in Heaven [already you can be in heaven by learning knowledge from one river of Kowsar] with a human who has Heavenly face [who has knowledge of prophet]

          بهشتی رویی means who his face is like face of who are in Heaven
          بهشتی رویی is not necessarily Houri
          بهشتی means heavenly
          رویی means face
          بهشتی رویی means heavenly faced. means who is worthy to be in Heaven. while it can mean Houri but according to context and saying "I already see a river from Kausar" [can be the teacher of Khayyam which was Avesina or other source of knowledge of prophet (Kausar)] heavenly faced is a human who is source of knowledge of prophet.

          "PS also reading your passages about the Quran I came across this:"
          please show me "orbit" in Arabic text.
          دَائِبَيْنِ ۖ means moving very exact and preplanned in a path. but it does not say about shape of path. (circular or other)

          Dear Iqbal,
          I love you and I am no hurt from you.

          "You keep talking about Avicenna & company endlessly. what is your point?"
          1- Avesina is only one example of thousands of Islamic scholars
          2- only Avesina and few other are known and famous in world but many many more exist
          3- it you study about Avesina and his life and history about him you see he was a little student of Islam and prophet Muhammad (PBUH) all they had was from prophet and Koran.
          they have many many sayings about prophet and Koran. there is no doubt all they had was from Islam. Avesina said:
          "whenever I had a scientific problem I did a pray and asked God and God sent the solution to my mind after pray to God"
          I mean western people do not know Islam and only know few Islamic scholars. I say all they had was from Koran and Islam
        • Jul 6 2011: Dear Iqbal,
          "SR, I'm sure you find the above discovery mentioned in Koran 1400 years ago. "
          yes Koran says the story of some people in history who had ages even more than 1000.
          so this means age of 1000 or more is possible.
          http://tanzil.net/#29:14

          but remember Koran has a clear rule for humans:
          http://tanzil.net/#29:57
          there is no exception for humans.

          کل means all with no exception.

          WHAT IS COMING IS NEAR
        • thumb
          Jul 6 2011: SR I have proven that the Quran is not from God but a product of the Arabs 1400 years ago, beyond reasonable doubt, to any impartial reader.

          Anyone can read and judge for themselves.

          I will no longer be taking part in this discussion.

          I have learned somethings from you too, so thank you for that. Iran has produced Omar Khayyam and it has also produced you.

          Alike for those who for TO-DAY prepare,
          And those that after some TO-MORROW stare,
          A Muezzin from the Tower of Darkness cries
          "Fools ! your Reward is neither Here nor There!'
        • Jul 6 2011: Dear Friend Richard,

          "Anyone can read and judge for themselves."
          agree
          http://tanzil.net/#2:256


          have a nice life and a nice death!

          you are welcomed to my home if you decided to travel Iran.
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jul 6 2011: ''SR I have proven that the Quran is not from God but a product of the Arabs 1400 years ago, beyond reasonable doubt, to any impartial reader.''

          ''O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allah. believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.''

          4:170

          ''And could you see when they are made to stand before their Lord. He will say: Is not this the truth? They will say: Yea! by our Lord. He will say: Taste then the chastisement because you disbelieved.''

          6:30

          ''We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them save with truth, and lo! the Hour is surely coming. So forgive, (O Muhammad), with a gracious forgiveness.''

          15:85


          ''With truth have We sent it down, and with truth hath it descended. And We have sent thee as naught else save a bearer of good tidings and a warner.''

          17:105
        • Jul 7 2011: "I say all they had was from Vedas and Hinduism."
          this is off topic here. please start new topic on Vedas and Hinduism to talk them.

          "In India there are some ascetic who lived for more than 500 years. "
          also in Iran some non-ascetic lived more than 300. I not heard for more than 350 still

          Yeap no one knows about death. only Islam has knowledge about tasting death.

          You better talk to a kid SR. I 'm not a kid."
          better first show only one who could break this law of Koran then say such things.

          Richard,
          "He doesnt know a few things, like the sun does not move around the Earth or set in it, where the sperm comes from, etc etc."
          I think you will repeat same thing even until your last seconds of life. even after death at judgement day! how much I type comments was wasted

          "I shall come when I can see your women walking on the streets with their heads held high,"
          already their head us held up.

          "without their faces covered"
          already their face is not covered. I think you think Iran is Afghanistan. covering face is not Islamic rule. its personal prefer.

          "or a head scarf obscuring their lovely hair."
          Muslim woman is special for her husband. not like western or New Zealand women and girls that are shared for all men to enjoy their beauty. consider what you say also about your sister and mother.

          "When you treat all your citizens equally."
          already is

          "When Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians are not considered half citizens."
          already are not. they have parliament member. which country is like this?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

          "When their testimony in court, is not equivalent to half that of a Muslim man. When the testimony of their women is not worth 1/4 that of a Muslim man."
          this is true. but first you should understand it then critique.

          "6,000 years and it seems the average human has learned little since then."
          irrelevant. many things is old but true.

          thanks for advice.
          not be sure about death.
        • Jul 9 2011: it is miracle in view of Arab poets. ask one of them.
          also it is for 1400 years ago and still has no error of any kind.
          also it is very beautiful in musical sound and poem and also in meanings. please hear to some recitations fro here:of Koran.
          for example "abdul basit" is one famous reader (reciter) of Koran. people love to sit hours and only hear to him reciting Koran. it is more beautiful than any singing.
          for example:
          www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuO6BkfCQmA
    • Jun 29 2011: "Again NEVER ONCE does the Quran ever say the Earth is moving. Because then again it APPEARS to be still."

      Koran says earth is moving. example:
      http://tanzil.net/#77:25 (earth is moving like birth with tight wings and moving fast)
      http://tanzil.net/#27:88 (earth is moving like clouds)
      http://tanzil.net/#20:53 (earth is moving like a cradle)
      http://tanzil.net/#67:15 (earth is moving like a docile camel/animal walking calm)

      "I am seeking the truth. Why do you say that I am not?"
      because you do not accept your mistakes honestly and insist on your dogma against Koran.

      "Is your definition of truth that the Quran is from God? "
      truth is defined by wisdom and accepting rational arguments even is not in your benefit.

      'Is your claim Quran is from God a HYPOTHESIS or an AXIOM?"
      hypo

      "We have accept or reject the hypothesis according to the evidence."
      I doubt the option of accepting Koran is from God exist in your mind. it seems your mind only has one unchangeable option and the option of Koran is disabled. please first activate it.

      "only taken the translations of the expert scholars "
      oh! you call biased anti-Islam who only say lie the expert scholars!!!
      why you not use valid references like www.al-islam.org or www.makarem.ir?
      your references show your level of honesty. you use links of un-honest enemies of Koran for knowing Koran!
      it is like I go and ask about Evolution from a creationist who is not honest and do not know Evolution and say any lie about Evolution.

      "If the translations are wrong then "
      translation are not wrong. to be honest Koran is very hard to translate (actually impossible) and translators did their best but still there is errors and you should not insist on a poor translate.

      "it is for you to tell me the correct translations of that verse"
      did you ask me honestly before you make your claims? or did you check translations from different Arabic references?
      you only insist and not accept my correct translate.
      I accept REAL and VALID evidence.
      • thumb
        Jun 29 2011: SR "I doubt the option of accepting Koran is from God exist in your mind."

        Yes it does. But it has a very small probability not because of belief but based on evidence.

        Tell me honestly does the option of rejecting Koran is from God exist in your mind? Honestly please.

        Remember if only one evidence exists then the hypothesis has to be rejected.

        Remember also we are dealing with probabilities. What is the verse probably talking about? A red sky which is the simple thing it seems to be saying or the Sun turning into a Red Giant 4 billion years from now? Both could be true, but what is far more likely or probable?

        SR "I accept REAL and VALID evidence" but I am now giving translations only from your links - do you not accept even those?

        Again you have repeated "Koran says earth is moving. example:
        http://tanzil.net/#77:25 (earth is moving like birth with tight wings and moving fast)
        http://tanzil.net/#27:88 (earth is moving like clouds)
        http://tanzil.net/#20:53 (earth is moving like a cradle)
        http://tanzil.net/#67:15 (earth is moving like a docile camel/animal walking calm)"

        NONE of those verses say the Earth is MOVING. Please refer to the translations from your source and links I have shown you above. I am not going to repeat myself.

        Please show me the translation where they say the Earth is moving.

        SR "I ask you do not interpret Koran as you like and do not make story about sun and resting at night."

        I am not interpreting the Quran AS I LIKE! I am taking the translation from YOUR source:

        "And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point." Quran 36:37

        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/36:38

        Other translations
        Pickthall "And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him."
        http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslations.asp?Display=yes&SoraNo=36&Ayah=38&toAyah=38&Language=2&LanguageID=2&TranslationBook=3

        Royal Aal Al-Bayat Institute, Jordan "And the sun [which] runs to its resting-place."
        http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslations.asp?Display=yes&SoraNo=36&A
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jun 29 2011: Richard, the verse 27:88 is clearly saying that the mountains are moving the movement of clouds.....

          I can explain clearly all of your misconceptions about the Quran. I can really understand why you would think that this or that particular verse is a mistake by the Quran. But first, you must realize that you do not know something which is absolutely vital in understanding the Quran: Arabic.

          So, your claims have zero value and they are just a waste of time. You cannot continue reading translations and then making conclusion based on them. That is why when our scholars are asked about the permissibility of translations, they say that it is permissible, but they also say that it is impossible to translate the Arabic Quran into another language, because no language can encompass what the Quran is saying. I implore you to understand this.
        • Jun 30 2011: "Tell me honestly does the option of rejecting Koran is from God exist in your mind? Honestly please."
          exist but it is epsilon. please do not prejudice. it is because thousands of proofs and wondering facts about Koran and is not for dogma. while I do not see even one proof against Koran.

          "Remember if only one evidence exists then the hypothesis has to be rejected."
          agree. but all are doubt not rigid evidence.

          "Remember also we are dealing with probabilities."
          I am not. I only accept certain evidence.

          about red giant lets talk after earth. one by one.

          "NONE of those verses say the Earth is MOVING. "
          I am sorry for you. I ask you:
          1- read different translations of them and try to have a deep understand of the words in verses claimed to show meaning of moving earth.
          2- please write your own translate of them based on your research
          3- honestly judge they 4 verse MEAN (not strictly saying earth is moving) earth is moving or not?

          "I am not interpreting the Quran AS I LIKE!"
          yes Koran says sun is going to a rest place OK.
          but you said Koran says:
          1-you said sun rests EVERY NIGHT
          2-sun has has CIRCULAR ORBIT
          by story I mean above 2 item.
        • thumb
          Jun 30 2011: J Ali/SR: "But first, you must realize that you do not know something which is absolutely vital in understanding the Quran: Arabic."

          Can't you see what you are saying? This is a business. Man-made. Languages are mankind's invention. You are buying it. I'm not buying it.
          (Life and all of it's vast richness and wonder is here for you to explore and understand. Put down the holy books.... To quote a well-know business slogan: Just do it.)
      • thumb
        Jun 30 2011: Hi J Ali verse 27:88 says “And you see the mountains, thinking them rigid, while they will pass as the passing of clouds. [It is] the work of Allah, who perfected all things. Indeed, He is Acquainted with that which you do.”

        Clearly he is talking of the mountains and the mountains alone. He is also talking about the future tense. "they WILL PASS", not something that is happening on a regular basis every day.

        There is no passage in the Quran saying the Earth is moving equivalent to the one that says the Sun and the Moon are swimming in their orbits.

        To the unbiased reader the Quranic view is of a still, flat Earth with the Sun rising from it in the East and setting on it in the west. ("the sun [which] runs to its resting-place")

        I heard your contention that you cannot understand the Quran unless you know Arabic, but I have the following objections to that:

        1. Arabic is a language just like any other and so should be open to translation like any other language.

        2. If you claim Arabic cannot be translated into any other language, how can any non-Arabic speaker learn the language? It would have no equivalent in any other language

        3. If it is true that Arabic has no equivalent in any other language, why would Allah allegedly have chosen to communicate his alleged one true religion for all men in the only language that cannot be understood by all men – including most Muslims, since most Muslims do not speak Arabic?

        4. How is it that my understanding of the Quran, through English translations, is the same as Bin Laden’s on Jihad or Sheik Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz, the former Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia on the shape of the Earth?

        Sheik Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz issued a fatwa saying the Earth was flat in 1993.

        Both of them were devout Muslims, believed implicitly in the Quran, knew the Quran thoroughly, AND WERE ARABIC SPEAKERS!
        • Jun 30 2011: "they will pass"
          Dear friend. Koran says تمر . if you know little Arabic grammar it means IS passING.
          WILL is false translate.
          please first check different languages then conclude and do not conclude quick.
          for example please see:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.asad/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sarwar/27:88

          will pass is clearly false translate according to Arabic grammar and I wonder why they translated will pass. [ I think they taught by themselves: mountains are not moving! they are fixed. why Koran says they are moving?! lets translate will pass to stupid people do not befool Koran]

          "There is no passage in the Quran saying the Earth is moving"
          I showed you 4 verse. please research them.

          "To the unbiased reader the Quranic view is of a still, flat Earth"
          honest reader considers all translates and tries some in Arabic dics and then decides.

          "Arabic is a language just like any other"
          no no no. Arabic is amazing. no language like it.

          "how can any non-Arabic speaker learn the language?"
          for example:
          http://salamstudios.com/
          also online resources are available.
          this is nice:
          Quranic Arabic Corpus, an annotated linguistic resource which shows the Arabic grammar, syntax and morphology for each word in the Holy Quran.
          from:
          Language Research Group
          University of Leeds
          http://corpus.quran.com/

          but it is open source and newborn like wiki and has errors but good for learning Arabic.

          "only language that cannot be understood by all men "
          who said can not? it can but not simply by looking first translate. it needs more research.

          "since most Muslims do not speak Arabic?"
          Any Muslim Arab or non-Arab knows at least some Arabic. some non-Arab Muslims know Arabic better than Arabs for knowing Koran well and deep.
        • Jun 30 2011: about Bin Ladan:
          he is not Muslim. Alghaede was trained and militarized and supported with US to destroy true Islam. the 11 sep is all scenario of Zeonism to justify attack to Iraq and Afghanistan and killing millions of true Muslims.

          fatwa saying Earth flat:
          1- many of them are Courtier and their God is money. please do not judge about Islam by Muslims. many of Muslims are enemies of God.
          God said in Koran:
          http://tanzil.net/#4:136
          O believers! believe. why should a believer believe again? it means many believers are liars and in fact non-believers. they believe only in money.
          2- fatwa is like a doctor who decide on surgery. some times a doctor makes a mistake decisions but it is unintentional.
          Islam says:
          Muslims should research enough in Koran and Islam resources to find the detailed laws of every day needs OR a Muslim who has not such time should follow the best professional in Islamic knowledge he can find.
          who makes a fatwa is not God and perhaps have some errors. but a REAL BELIEVER Islamic marja (top specialist in Islamic knowledge like Ayatollah Makarem http://english.makarem.ir/biography/ ) usually has no error or very few cases of NOT PERFECT fatwa (not error).
          false fatwa are from Courtier religious leaders (Imam) and ignorant Muslims follow them.
          http://mannam.persiangig.com/11.jpg
          http://shia-news.com/files/fa/news/1389/1/11/4900_542.jpg
          please read my comments for Eduard here:
          http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html
          Imam is a general word and applies to different persons.
          the main meaning of Imam is: true successors of prophet:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_the_two_weighty_things
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        • Jun 30 2011: I do not know Bin Ladan is dead or alive.
          but I know Alghaede is now killing Shia Muslims in Pakistan. specially in Rurals.
          they have farmed mines around rural areas and controlling ways and people do not have food.
          please research who first time gave military airplanes to Alghaede.
          also can not you see facts showing 9/11 was a Plan of Zeonism?
          you are seeing crimes of them and still not believe?
          better to have a tripe to Palestine. perhaps you see and know them. then you believe conspiracy.
          perhaps such news are censored in your TV.
          anyway 9/11 conspiracy does not have few evidences.
          one day all secrets will be opened. its soon.
        • thumb
          Jun 30 2011: Yes we all have our hidden agendas don't we? We all have our ball and chain we drag around and call it our anchor. We all have our misconceptions, our reasons, our differences, our references... True?

          "it will be soon."
          That kind of phrasing makes me uneasy. Are you implying something?
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          Jun 30 2011: Regarding religions being businesse:

          The purpose of a business is to provide a product or service that people need and to do it in such a way as to make a living from it. Businesses require consumers. Businesses exchange products or services for an exchange of payment. They compete with others for the same market.
          Holy Books
          Prayer books
          Dogma
          Relics
          Cathedrals
          Mosques
          Temples
          Hierarchies
          Yamakas
          Prayer rugs
          Wailing Walls
          Friday/Saturday/Sunday meetings
          Holidays
          Saints
          Martyrs
          Miracles
          Schools
          Tax breaks
          Followers
          Tender (money, souls, etc.)

          Religions are businesses. They do much good around the world. But they are businesses that man made. Because of that fact alone they also do much bad in the world.

          Now the business of life.... That's a business we all need to use more of!
        • Jun 30 2011: SR - Let's not get into conspiracy theories. They do not prove the Qur'an. Do you really think the Zionists control Al Queda and all Muslims terrorists are actually Zionist dupes?

          All the people that actually flew the planes were Muslims, (mostly from Saudi Arabia). They spent their whole lives learning the Islamic scriptures as did bin Laden. They and their cohorts quote Islamic scriptures and use the Islamic battle cry, "Allahu Akbar" (Allah is greatest). I suppose the Jews taught them that.

          Let's move on.
        • Jul 2 2011: Dear Jim,
          you are right about business of religion.
          but this is not true about ALL religions.
          at least I am sure about Shia Islam you can not find any religious leader being rich. they all have simple or poor life and spend their own money for poor people.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad-Taqi_Bahjat_Foumani
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_al-Sistani
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naser_Makarem_Shirazi

          can you show one Shia religious leader be a businessman in religion?

          also you are free to buy or not buy church/mosque ,...
          but you are not free to not buy death. you MUST buy death. death is sold you you.
          also about Hell if you do not care God and religion.
          in Islam people are free to go or not go to mosque. but finally you should decide about religion and God.
          this is a sign of true religion:
          http://tanzil.net/#36:21
      • thumb
        Jun 30 2011: Dear SR you say "Koran says تمر . if you know little Arabic grammar it means IS passING. WILL is false translate. please first check different languages then conclude and do not conclude quick.
        for example please see:
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/27:88
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.asad/27:88
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/27:88
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/27:88
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/27:88"

        SR all the translations say it will happen "and thou shalt see the mountains, that thou supposest fixed, passing by like clouds .." shalt see means will see at some later date and only the mountains. Not the Earth.

        And what is that later date? When will that happen? The previous verse tells us 27:87, IT IS THE JUDGEMENT DAY "the Day when the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and the earth will start in fear,"

        Even if it is happening, it is describing what is happening on the Judgement day.

        Clearly this is not an every day event. It will happen, according to those verses 27:87 and 27:88 on the Judgement Day.

        "There is no passage in the Quran saying the Earth is moving"

        SR "I showed you 4 verse. please research them"

        What research do you want me to do? NONE of them in ANY translation say the Earth is moving. I have shown you. If they are moving YOU research them and show me a translation where they say the Earth is moving

        Show me a verse like Quran 21:33 “It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its ROUNDED course.” http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.yusufali/21:33

        It says the Sun swims along in an orbit. Obviously he is talking about the orbit around the Earth - what it appears to do.

        Show me a verse where it says the Earth goes in an orbit around the Sun, or indeed any orbit at all. Show me in fact any verse where it says the Earth is moving.

        J Ali I think you know what I am talking about?
        • Jun 30 2011: Dear Richard,
          you are right. the translations say "will move". but they are not correct. the Arabic word should be considered. not translate.
          about

          "it is describing what is happening on the Judgement day."
          this is one apparently possible interpret of this verse:
          about this verse Koran interpreters said two interpret:
          1- some say like you it is discretion of Judgement day.
          2- some disagree 1 and say it is for now because:

          1. and has conflict with other verses describing Judgement day. for example:
          http://tanzil.net/#56:5
          http://tanzil.net/#77:10
          http://tanzil.net/#78:20
          http://tanzil.net/#101:5

          2. there is no clear relation to past verse. although is not impossible.

          so it means current move of them.

          "What research do you want me to do?"
          please yourself translate them.
          when some says: earth is like x. and x is a moving thing then we can conclude earth is moving. please research them.
          Koran says earth is cradle. what means this?
          you want to Koran exactly say what you want?

          "each in its ROUNDED course.” "
          please consider all translates or even yourself try to translate it. as I checked only one translate used rounded. and all other not said circular or round. Koran only says sun is going in a special path to reach a resting point. nothing more.

          "Obviously he is talking about the orbit around the Earth - what it appears to do."
          !!!!
          it is not obvious for me. you are judging about Koran based on your Images about Koran. not based on what really Koran says.

          "Show me a verse where it says the Earth goes in an orbit around the Sun, or indeed any orbit at all. Show me in fact any verse where it says the Earth is moving"
          I already showed you 5 verse that MEANS earth is moving.
          but I currently can not show you a verse exactly say what you want.
          Koran is not write to be shown to you only and exactly what words you want.
          but if you research the 5 verse I showed you will find Koran say earth is moving.
          http://tanzil.net/#76:3
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jun 30 2011: Nop.
        • Jun 30 2011: SR - The Qur'an is supposed to be the exact word of God and you are attempting to prove that. Muhammad and Allah repeatedly said it is clear and contains clear proofs.

          If the Qur'an is the exact word of God why do we have so many additions to it in brackets ( ) added by the very human Islamic scholars in order to make it clear? We have no right to even read what is within those brackets and attribute it to God. Take away what is within the brackets and the message becomes muddled and impossible to understand. The material within the brackets influences the meaning and therefore has the potential to change the meaning. How is it you read what is within the brackets and say it the word of God?

          Am I wrong here? Do you have a Qur'an in Arabic that does not have any information added by the human scribes? You know there is not a singe copy of a complete Qur'an that can be dated to within 150 of Muhammad's death. So if it was written based on the oral reports ( isnads), the scribes must be very careful not to add or subtract a single word, lest they alter the exact word of God. If they have done that then no one is reading the correct Qur'an.

          Even so, Richard is right, language is simply a medium for humans to express themselves and is translatable. It may take a few more words etc. but the message is translatable.

          Based on what I have read, and I have read every word in the Qur'an many times and a good deal of the Hadith, the Islamic terrorists have a better understanding of what is being said than you do.
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        Jun 30 2011: J Ali you point me to a link that says the Sun moves around the centre of the Galaxy. I am aware of that.

        But the OBVIOUS apparent EVERYDAY movement of the Sun which everyone can observe EVERYDAY is its movement around the Earth.

        It APPARENTLY rises EVERYDAY in the East of the Earth, FROM the Earth and it APPARENTLY sets EVERYDAY in the west IN the Earth.

        To everyone the Earth is APPARENTLY still. It does not move. But the Sun appears to move around the Earth.

        All primitive societies believed that and the Arabs of Muhammad's time were a primitive society

        Now the Quran says about the Sun:

        21:33 “And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.”

        36:38 “And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him.”

        18:86 “Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring”

        These verses combined with the fact that not one verse in the Quran says the Earth is moving in an orbit, (and in fact not one verse in the Quran says the Earth is moving at all), perfectly matches the beliefs of the primitive Arabs, that the Sun moves around the Earth and the Earth is still.

        J Ali you imply that when the Quran is talking about the Sun going about its orbit, it is talking about the Sun moving around the centre of the Galaxy once every 230 million years, and not its apparent orbit everyday.

        I do not put 0 probability to that explanation, but examining those verses which explanation is more REASONABLE?

        Be honest and judge for yourself.

        All the verses that SR quotes as saying the Earth moves, do not say the Earth moves. He refers me to one verse which says the Earth is like a cradle or a bed, and asks me what that means. To him it means the Earth is going around the Sun, but to me it means the verse is saying the Earth is flat, another primitive belief.

        Now which explanation is more reasonable?
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jun 30 2011: Richard, I would love to reply and I have very clear answers. But I have already said that I will not. The reason is that I will have to give you countless lessons on Arabic for you to even understand what I am trying to tell you......this will take many many posts, comments and arguments....I am not willing to waste my time for this as I have, regretfully, in past conversations.....If you were me, you would have understood completely what I am feeling.... Do you know how frustrating this is?!

          The problem is that you are basing your arguments on translations that are vague and do not encompass the Arabic Quran......The Quran in Arabic is very clear and understandable... I am not saying translations should not be written....they are necessary and important..I am saying that it is very ignorant for you to base your arguments on translations.....your arguments should be in the form of honest questions..,,so that I can explain to you in Arabic.....If your attitude is that of someone who is arguing..we will never get anywhere as has happened before.....very long commentaries of the ARABIC Quran by our great modern Muslim scholars should be read and then you can ask, you can ask but not argue...because you will remain ignorant of Arabic.... The Quran is a miracle of Arabic.....the translations are not even Qurans, they are translations.

          I am very sorry if that disappoints you...but one thing I can honestly tell you is that ALL of your arguments against the Quran are false....and all are misunderstood...and that is so clear to me.... Maybe because of this misunderstanding, you think that I or any other Muslim believes what he reads with no thinking. While I have said many times that your arguments and all other arguments against the Quran have been mentioned in our own books, they are in fact full of them....we are not scared of them as your comments imply...and they are all answered in a clear logical way....

          Argue with S.R. who is more patient than me.

          Best of luck.
      • thumb
        Jun 30 2011: Then SR falls back to saying that I have misinterpreted it because I do not understand Arabic.

        Sorry SR I don’t buy that.

        I don’t have to understand Arabic. The people who translated the Quran understood Arabic allright, better than you.

        You may claim that Arabic is very advanced language, (though it beats me how the primitive Arabs invented such an advanced language), but even primitive English has words and concepts like moving or still, spheres and planes, round and flat, beds and balls.
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jun 30 2011: ''I don’t have to understand Arabic.''

          Yes you don't have to fully understand Arabic to understand the Quran..A Muslim scholar can teach you all of the Quran and what it says..... But to read translations of some verses which seem, at first sight, to be wrong and then to start arguing against the Quran, based on that translation. That is what is wrong. The Quran is an Arabic book..it is the best Arabic piece of literature ever..you are arguing based on translations.... you will never realize this because you don't understand the Arabic Quran.... I can really see where you go wrong in all of your arguments, because I understand Arabic....and as I said, that is very frustrating to me, and I become very sad when I see people understanding the Quran like this...... The Quran is not for just Arabs......it is for everyone....Every human can fully understand the Quran, every human can reach his full potential, every human can see Allah in everything even if he is not an Arab....

          ''O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.''

          49:12


          But he needs to ask people who understand what the original Quran is saying and that as a result leads him to knowing Arabic....just like everyone can understand the Theory of Evolution but not through himself.... A teacher teaches him....
        • Jul 1 2011: Richard.
          you still do not accept Koran says earth is moving?!!!!!
          oh my GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD! who is this Richard

          or still do not accept Koran says FOUND IT.
          “Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring”
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY

          HOW MANY TIMES I SHOULD REPEAT?
          I PREFER TALK SOME ONE ELSE.

          "I don’t have to understand Arabic. The people who translated the Quran understood Arabic allright, better than you."
          they have not translated for such exact scientific debates. translate is for studying.
          there are many books for deep meanings of Arabic words. some times a single words has many pages of explain.

          I accept about English.
          when you want to analyses an old and important text you should learn that language.
          but for simple studying you can use translates.
      • thumb
        Jul 1 2011: SR first you tell me that I cannot understand the Quran unless I learn Arabic. I say there is no need, as it should be translatable to English. You say no - Arabic is unlike any other language and cannot be translated. I ask, how then can Arabic be learned? Then you direct me to a place where I can learn it.

        But then if I can learn Arabic, then I can translate it. After all I will have to translate it in my head to understand it. But why should I spend my time learning it and then translating it when there are already experts in Arabic, who will be far more expert than me, who have already translated it?

        And another example of your flawed logic:-

        I ask you to produce even a single verse in the Quran which says the Earth is moving. You produce 4 verses. NONE of them says the Earth is moving.

        3 of them don’t speak of any movement WHATSOEVER of anything, leave alone the Earth.

        1 of them (27:88) talks of the mountains moving, not the whole Earth, and something that will happen, apparently on the Judgement Day.

        Here are the two verses 27:87 – 88 “The day the trumpet blast is sounded whoever is in the heavens and the earth will be terrified, save those whom God please, and all will appear before Him in abjectness. You will see the mountains and think they are firmly planted, but they will pass away like flying clouds: Artistry of God who perfected everything. He is indeed fully aware of what you do.”
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/27:88

        You admit that it could be the judgement day but say maybe not. But whatever day it is, it is the day that “the trumpet blast is sounded” and “whoever is in the heavens and the earth will be terrified, save those whom God please, and all will appear before Him in abjectness.”

        Now this does not happen everyday, even if it is not the judgement day. I hear no trumpet blasts, nor am I terrified, nor do I appear before “Him” in abjectness. It hasn’t happened in all of recorded history.
        • Jul 1 2011: "But then if I can learn Arabic, then I can translate it. "
          YES but translate is not valid for research. its used for reading Koran.
          for research should know Arabic.

          "But why should I spend my time learning it and then translating it when there are already experts in Arabic"
          ok. ask them 5 verse I showed about moving the earth.

          "I ask you to produce even a single verse in the Quran which says the Earth is moving. You produce 4 verses. NONE of them says the Earth is moving"
          proof. this only claim.
          when Koran says earth is a cradle or a calm walking camel does not it mean earth is moving.
          when some one says that girl is like moon what it means?
          understand it. Koran is not only and only an astronomy book. it has all aspects together. its is also poem.

          "talks of the mountains moving, not the whole Earth"
          in New Zealand mountains are walking or fixed in earth?

          "You admit that it could be the judgement day but say maybe not."
          I proved most probably it is not for Judgement day. I said some interpreters say it.
          also this is not only verse about moving earth.

          "Now this does not happen everyday,"
          it did not say every day. but according to grammar the verb تمر means passING
          what means ing in New Zealand?

          "I hear no trumpet blasts, "
          trumpet blasts is for previous verse speaking about Judgement day.
          first you should prove this verse is continuous of past verse and is not a new subject.
      • thumb
        Jul 1 2011: You say there is no clear relation of verse 27:88 to its previous verse 27:87, but admit it is “not impossible”.

        This is very funny indeed. Firstly because it seems to clearly follow from the previous verse, and secondly if the Quran is indeed so disjointed, can we really believe it is from God, rather than from some rambling and confused individual?

        If this is true then you have already disproved the Quran.

        In any case, to any reasonable person, this verse is NOT talking about the Earth moving around the Sun, or revolving on its axis, or moving at all.

        But the final straw comes from your conclusion. After agreeing that it COULD BE talking about an event, that will happen on the judgment day, (which is only the movement of the mountains and not the whole Earth), you conclude “so it means current move of them”.

        You have 100% certainty in your conclusion after admitting doubt in your premises!!

        No wonder when I asked you “Tell me honestly, does the option of rejecting Koran is from God exist in your mind?” You replied “exist but it is epsilon” (tending towards Zero). In your mind you are not prepared to accept that possibility, no matter what the evidence.

        But to conclude, you claim the Quran is from God because, according to your claim No. 5 “Koran says sun is moving”

        1. I have shown with the evidence above that MOST PROBABLY the Quran says the Sun is moving around a stationary Earth and sets IN the Earth at night.

        This casts serious doubts about the Quran, but is not 100% conclusive. I will grant you 0.1% doubt in this conclusion and J Ali's claim that the Quran maybe talking about its 270 million year journey around the centre of the Galaxy (although there is absolutely no evidence for this), rather than its daily journey around the Earth.

        BUT, and here is the clincher:
        • Jul 1 2011: many verses of Koran in independent of previous verse and this has no problem.
          its like a new sentence with a new subject in a text.

          "After agreeing that it COULD BE talking about an event, that will happen on the judgment day"
          yes could be. so you should first prove it. I showed some verses for disproving your idea.

          "You have 100% certainty in your conclusion after admitting doubt in your premises!!"
          not 100% but I showed proof for it.

          also it is not the only verse saying earth is moving. I showed 5.
          but you simple say:
          they do not say earth is moving. with no proof.
          those 5 verse MEANS earth is moving.

          "1. I have shown with the evidence above that MOST PROBABLY the Quran says the Sun is moving around a stationary Earth and sets IN the Earth at night."

          evidence for "around earth"?
          set in mud is APPARENTLY (FOUND IT).
      • thumb
        Jul 1 2011: 2. Whereas you pointed out “Koran says sun is moving”, you omitted to mention that THE KORAN ALSO SAYS THE SUN STOPS MOVING

        (36:38 “And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place;”)

        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/36:38

        This is obviously talking about the Sun resting at night.

        Now whether we are talking about the Sun’s apparent daily journey around the Earth, or its spinning on its axis, or its actual journey around the centre of the Galaxy, one thing is certain – the Sun never stops moving, there is no fixed resting-place.

        This conclusively, 100% proves that the Quran is false.

        Hallelujah SR ! Please do stop fretting about your imaginary Hell, which Islam frightens its followers with like the Bogey-man, and start enjoying life.

        Engage in song and dance. Try Ceroc or Rock n Roll.

        Do you listen to music? I invite you to listen to the Hallelujah chorus. It is very uplifting.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

        Enjoy. This is very different from your puritanical Iran.

        Finally in meeting this challenge about the Quran, we have probably inevitably offended people who revere Islam very much, but as Elam has put it so well "I just don't know how to say my piece about Islam without calling a spade a spade."

        This is something that Salim had pointed out right in the beginning that would inevitably happen.

        So Au revour, apologies and best wishes to you too.
        • Jul 1 2011: "This is obviously talking about the Sun resting at night."
          show me "night" in Koran or you are false.

          "THE KORAN ALSO SAYS THE SUN STOPS MOVING "
          Kora said sun is MOVING to a resting point. the stop can be 1 billion years later or tomorrow.
          not said at night.
      • thumb
        Jul 1 2011: SR "I PREFER TALK SOME ONE ELSE"

        Why SR? Is it because I point out the errors so clearly and you do not like it?

        SR "FOUND IT=APPARENTLY"

        Not to anyone who knows English. If I found you in your bath tub then I would actually see you in your bath tub, not apparently see you there.

        The Arabic word for "APPARENTLY"is not used in the verse.

        Here are the translations from many Arabic scholars:

        “Till he reached THE POINT OF THE SETTING SUN, and saw it set behind a muddy lake,” – Ahmed Ali
        “To the extent that when he reached THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,” Ahmed Raza Khan
        “until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,” Arberry
        “Until when HE REACHED THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he perceived it setting in a miry spring,” Daryababd (perceived it means he saw it)
        “Till, when HE REACHED THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,” Pickthall
        “To the West where HE FOUND THE SUN SETTING INTO A WARM SOURCE (spring) of water” Sarwar
        “Until when he reached THE PLACE WHERE THE SUN SET, he found it going down into a black sea”
        “Until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found it set in a spring of murky water”

        The Quran talks about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN - an actual place. There is no such place.

        I will come to your last argument which rests on a point of fact.

        "This is obviously talking about the Sun resting at night."

        SR "show me "night" in Koran or you are false"

        This is a false argument. If the Koran does not explicitly say the resting place is at night, that does NOT mean my argument is false. The implicit meaning is obvious.

        SR "Kora said sun is MOVING to a resting point. the stop can be 1 billion years later or tomorrow.
        not said at night."

        It does not say it rests at night but taking all those verses together it is obvious that is what the Koran is referring to.

        And the Sun will NEVER stop moving. Not tomorrow, not in a billion years, Not EVER.
        • Jul 2 2011: "Why SR? Is it because I point out the errors so clearly and you do not like it?"
          because this is your always behaviour:
          1- you make a false claim about Koran
          2- I disprove your claim
          3- you do not reply my prove and again and again repeat your first claim without disproving or notice to my reply.

          for example for moving earth I showed you 5 verse but you only say they do not say earth is moving without caring to my explains.
          or about earth setting in mud. I many times said it says "found it" which means apparantly. and you again repeat without replying my disprove.

          "Not to anyone who knows English."
          it is clear in Arabic and I think in English also. you are playing with words.

          "The Arabic word for "APPARENTLY"is not used in the verse."
          my friend! وجدها means found it or apparently.
          why Koran not said see it setting instead of found it?

          the word used in arabic is وجدها which is different of arabic words for seeing رويت

          "The Quran talks about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN - an actual place."
          you do not consider word وجدها found it which not means seeing.
          please check other words in Koran for seeing.

          "does not explicitly say the resting place is at night, that does NOT mean my argument is false."
          also not prove you are right. you are claiming with no proof.

          "The implicit meaning is obvious."
          not obvious

          "And the Sun will NEVER stop moving. Not tomorrow, not in a billion years, Not EVER. "
          astronomers should say it.
          the Big Bang says universe is expanding. and some say one day will stop expanding and some say expanding for ever.
          this verse can be related to stopping the expand of universe. perhaps.
      • thumb
        Jul 2 2011: ..
        SR
        1- It is YOU who make a false claim about the Koran
        2- It is I who disprove your claim
        3- It is YOU who repeat your first claim without noticing it has been disproved.

        SR "for example for moving earth I showed you 5 verse but you only say they do not say earth is moving without caring to my explains."

        You showed me only 4 verses and I have clearly disproved you. None of them say the Earth is moving. The Quran is unaware that the Earth moves, only that the Sun and Moon move, because they appear to. Look at the reply to Elam above.

        SR "or about earth setting in mud. I many times said it says "found it" which means apparantly. and you again repeat without replying my disprove.,,my friend! وجدها means found it or apparently"

        My friend ALL the Arabic experts who have translated that verse translate it as FOUND. He FOUND the Sun setting into a muddy spring. Google translate also translates the word as FOUND.
        http://translate.google.co.nz/translate_t?rlz=1C1CHMY_enNZ358NZ378&q=%D9%88%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%87%D8%A7&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wT

        FOUND = Discovered, established, ascertained, confirmed.

        You are a Persian speaker who has spent a lifetime studying the Quran in Arabic yet you know Bug--er all about Arabic. I give you a FAIL, a big Zero. Go back to class and learn Arabic then come back and talk to me.

        "does not explicitly say the resting place is at night, that does NOT mean my argument is false."

        SR "also not prove you are right. you are claiming with no proof"

        I am claiming with logic. From a reading of that verse along with the others such as "THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN", since the sun sets at night, the resting place it is obviously referring to, is the "murky spring" at the "THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN", at night.

        The Big Bang? Dont make me laugh. The Quran talks about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, and says it sets into a muddy spring, what would it know about the Big Bang.
        • Jul 2 2011: "You showed me only 4 verses and I have clearly disproved you. "
          which disprove?

          "None of them say the Earth is moving. "
          you only repeat this as disprove!

          "FOUND = Discovered, established, ascertained, confirmed."
          1-found it means apparently.
          2- even if your claim is true it is what he (zul-gharnanin) see not what God said. that is story of zul-gharnanin

          "SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN", since the sun sets at night, the resting place it is obviously referring to, is the "murky spring" at the "THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN", at night."
          you are mixing two different verse.
          even if there your mix is valid still:
          1- it says found it (apparantly) which is different of Arabic words for seeing
          2- even if your claim is true (little possibility) it is only what zulgharnin said. Koran also quotes what Faroh or many other people said. not any thing Koran quotes from people are accepted by Koran. it is only quoting.

          "The Big Bang? Don't make me laugh. The Quran talks about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, and says it sets into a muddy spring, what would it know about the Big Bang. "
          I can talk you about Big Bang in Koran but I prefer not talk you more.
          earth is enough.
          I prefer talk wise and honest people who accept mistakes. who are real truth seekers.
          I do not remember only one time you admitted one mistake.
          you are a proud and head strong man.
          Christian people are much better.
    • Jul 4 2011: Dear Richard, im with you in any word that you wrote, but http://cectic.com/comics/069.png.
      • Jul 5 2011: Dear Bran,
        why yourself not show your knowledge and logic?
        accusing others that they do not understand rules is not fair before play them.
        show your play.
        what law I not understand?
        what is accepted law in west is not accepted in Islam.
        but logic and wisdom is accepted anywhere.
        also this is not a war.
        this is a talk for developing knowledge of both side.
        to be honest I learned many things from people in TED.
        • Jul 8 2011: Dear S.R How to show logic and knowlede in topic when somebody wants to prove tha some old book is writen by nonexisting god. There are so many gods in this word, and you are convinced that your is the real one,and others gods are just fictional. You know,the concet of a spherical Earth dates back to ancient Greek philosophy, and they had like 17 gods, so they must be real one then . What we know about our universe and science is from people who were courious and wanted to understand the reality and laws of nature, you on the other side are taking that knowledge from humans away and giving all the credit to some god and you want to talk about logic. So now ,please tell me what have you learnd from Richard Dawson or people like him?
      • Jul 8 2011: Dear Bran,
        "How to show logic and knowlede in topic when somebody wants to prove tha some old book is writen by non-existing god."
        what is the problem?
        you think it is non-existing God and I think it is existing God.

        "You know,the concet of a spherical Earth dates back to ancient Greek philosophy, and they had like 17 gods, so they must be real one then ."
        who said who says earth is round is God?!
        Koran has thousands of wonders and they all together show this book is from God. not only this one.

        ". What we know about our universe and science is from people who were courious and wanted to understand the reality and laws of nature, you on the other side are taking that knowledge from humans away and giving all the credit to some god and you want to talk about logic."
        please notice.
        what proves Koran is that Koran is a book from 1400 years ago and still has no scientific error. I did not give the credit of science to Koran. I say if Koran is from humans so should have errors.

        "So now ,please tell me what have you learnd from Richard Dawson or people like him?"
        from Richard I learned he has dogma and repeats same things without notice or disproving my replies. but from other people on TED I learned many useful things.
        • Jul 8 2011: But why did god first creates our universe with errors, and life with so many errors then waited so long and write a book with no errors?
          And please find answer for me in koran for that god paradox
          If He can make such a mountain, there is something which He cannot do: He cannot lift the mountain,
          If He cannot make such a mountain, there is something which He cannot do: He cannot make the mountain.
      • Jul 9 2011: what error you mean has universe?
        if universe have any error will not work so exact and all planets and stars and everything will have accidents and our earth will not work so exact and calm around sun.
        all stars and planets have influence on each other according to gravity.
        please explain what error in universe you mean?
        I disagree your default that universe has error.
        please note that God has no limitation but universe is made of material and material has limitations and any creation with material has limitations according to properties of material.
        for example material has time, weight, dimensions, place that are limitations.

        "He cannot lift the mountain,"
        why you think God can not lift the mountain? do you have proof?
        for example you can cut your hand. but when you do not do this it means you cannot cut your hand?!

        "He cannot make the mountain."
        God can make any king of mountain.
        why you say that? I not understand what you mean.
        • Jul 9 2011: I'm probably out of my mind that I comment in this discussion as you've been beating the same dead horse all along and do not show any sign of rationality. Having said that, I need to emphasize Bran's point when he said you should not argue with a believer as they don't know they basic rules of the game. Also,

          1. What Bran means by imperfect universe is that if God was perfect and created the universe perfectly, why would there be the need to send Koran in the first place. If He needs to prove himself, then there was something wrong with his creation that he needs correction.

          2. The mountain example is a well known paradox and it is surprising that you don't understand it. Bran asks you "can God create a mountain big enough that he cannot lift?" If you say yes then it means God is not perfect and if you say no the same. I'm sure you don't have a convincing answer for that as you have not shown any sign of logical reasoning in your previous posts.

          3. I think it behooves you to first to prove existence of God and then proving the Koran is from Him. So it is upon you to partake in the "prove/disprove atheism discussion" and if you ratify their problems then you could give convincing answer here.

          4. It is very dishonest of you to try represent Persian scholars as whom they are not. It is intellectually wrong to interpret Khayyam's poetry by giving ridiculous metaphors. How would you feel if someone does the same thing to Koran and make outrageous claims.

          5. You and J Ali didn't give any convincing response to my previous comment. Say non-Arabic speaking people believe in Islam does not solve the logical contradiction that I pointed out exists in your reasoning.

          6, I've seen brilliant scientists from Iran but I guess when it comes to critical reasoning the education system does a very poor job. Quoting Wikipedia and Howstuffworks is not how you should conduct research. Everyone can alter those sources, you need to give credible sources.
        • Jul 9 2011: I only provided some of my observations and didn't mean to belittle you. In fact I should admit I've seen other religious groups that don't even accept science and find it against their religious. So it is at least good that you're trying to prove your religion scientifically although you're not using a scientific method at all.

          I'd suggest you read Spinoza as a starter to see how one gives rational proofs. You moreover need to improve your logic. If I may, I'd like to refer you to works by Bertrand Russell on religion. He has a great prose and I'm sure you'd enjoy.

          On the other hand, you've been blaming Westerners as ignorant of Middle-Eastern science and culture while you know little about their culture.
      • Jul 9 2011: "do not show any sign of rationality"
        I hope you show enough proof instead of accusing without proof.

        your points:
        1- what is the relation with error of universe?!
        God not need to prove himself. why you think so?
        sending Koran is not for proving God.
        people are free to believe or not believe God. but if some one wanted to believe there is enough proof for him. this is not need of God. this is guide of God.

        2- sorry It is not well known for me. I not heard it.
        "can God create a mountain big enough that he cannot lift?"
        God can created any thing. but this is not a "thing"
        what you say is impossible rationally at all.
        right now God is lifting all the universe by controlling its parts (stars, planets,...)
        please ask God possible things. can you fit earth inside an egg?

        3- proving existence of God is in other topics like:
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/1599/who_is_god.html
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/1602/why_don_t_people_believe_in_go.html
        please read my comments there.
        it is offtopic here. also proving Koran is in fact proving God.

        4-"It is very dishonest of you to try represent Persian scholars as whom they are not. "
        iran has thousands like them and all Muslim. no doubt. but some have more than one nationality. this not change matter. they are thousands. also past Iran was very large containing many today countries.
        it is not interpret. I showd enough proof. please read them. what means kausar? it is clear. not personal interpret.
        no problem other interprets are welcomed and we discuss them. anyway any interpret needs proofs and evidence.

        5- what comment exactly you mean?
        non-arabic people know arabic also and anso use specialists. you do not know medicine but use a doctor. perhaps you have arab friends or you can use dics and many websites for arabic language. this is a scape from argument.
        6- I know what you mean. there is lack of English references. which ref. you have problem?
        • Jul 9 2011: I only give you one example from the previous comment to show that you "do not show any sign of rationality." I don't intend to accuse you but you're very emotional on this topic and that hampers your judgement. For example you just said that: "proving Koran is in fact proving God." No it does not. You argument is like saying proving Relativity correct makes it from Einstein. Relativity can be correct without being produced by Einstein and one doesn't imply the other. This example alone does not show that you're irrational per se ans everyone makes mistakes but considering the fact whenever there is a rational argument your response is way off makes you so. My next points would also support my current argument so I'm not accusing you without evidence.

          1. In number 1 I simply paraphrased what Bran wanted to say and I don't have enough information to draw any kinds of conclusion on that topic. I am personally not sure yet that we poses free will so having the choice in believing is irrelevant now. So again you have to first prove that I have free will then try to convince me that I have the choice of believing in Koran.

          2. It is widely known as the "Omnipotence Paradox." There is a good article here http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omnipotence/ but I'm sure if you search you find other credible sources.

          3. I have to read those and get back to you on that.

          4. Writing lengthy discussion does not constitute a proof. You simply distorted what the poem says. The "Kausar" does not mean what you say in that context and you know it. Considering the rest of Kayyam's work it is clear that he doesn't mean what you want him to mean.

          The fact that other interpretations of Koran are welcomed as it is so open ended for anyone to abuse it is the source of many issues that we have such as extremist to use it in order to justify killing indecent people. Also the idea of having proof and evidence for your interpretation is again a fallacy as if there were proof then it would
        • Jul 9 2011: be logical deduction not interpretation.

          5. Again here you completely miss the point and being completely irrational. Not knowing medicine to recognizing a doctor is not as to not knowing Arabic to recognize validity of Koran. Medicine to doctor is as Koran to its sum of knowledge (roughly). So not knowing medicine is the same as not having that knowledge. Your example in fact emphasizes my point, you don't consult a doctor who you don't understand his language, of course in metaphorical sense.

          But as I said you don't get the point, or probably deliberately avoiding it. If knowing Arabic (by which I mean the culture and all you quoted in you discussion above) is a prerequisite to understanding Koran there is nothing to necessitate learning Arabic to me and if I don't know Arabic, Koran doesn't make sense to me so it is not valid to me and so on.

          6. All the ones which you referenced and are community edited.

          Anyhow, I won't probably come back though I'll read your response to this. Also, I didn't mean to offend you (particularly when I said you don't show any sign of rationality, by that I didn't mean you are incapable of being so but rather chose to not being so) thus if I sounded judgmental at points, my apologies.
      • Jul 9 2011: "although you're not using a scientific method at all."
        please note here is not a lab and we do not want to conduct a scientific research.
        what we claim is this:
        Koran has no conflict and contradiction with CERTAIN science (not hypothesis)
        this is a simple compare. this is not a scientific research needing scientific method.

        "I'd suggest you read Spinoza as a starter to see how one gives rational proofs. "
        no problem. but are you ready to read my recommended books also?
        please pick one of Spinoza proofs and write it short here.

        "You moreover need to improve your logic."
        sure. I am a simple human with errors and evils.

        please pick one logic of Bertrand Russell and show here.

        yes I know little about western culture
        • Jul 9 2011: ˝I am a simple human with errors and evils˝
          We all are that, we all have errors, that because we are part of evolution, and we are evolving from simple life to more complex one. I have no problem with that, we have proof for that. That is science. I know that after Im dead all my memmory and my personality is going to nonexistence and my body is going to decompose. What you believe is that after you are dead you are going to better place and live you life with all you dead ancestors and so on. So why would god in the first place create this life if there is another better one after this where is logic to that. Would not be more logical that god is trynig to overcome himself and improve ,rather than playing childish games with some universe and life. If you see us humans, the genius is always trying to improve values of things not to decrease them, god is doing it backward.

          And thank you Sometimes Someone for longer view, its hard for me because english is like my 3 language and isnt very fluent yet :)
      • Jul 9 2011: Dear Bran,
        "I know that after Im dead all my memmory and my personality is going to nonexistence and my body is going to decompose. "
        are you sure place of memory is brain?
        is science sure about this?
        Koran says memory is stored in soul and is protected by God after death and will be returned to your new body at Judgement day.
        also after death you have your memory but you leave your body and you will be soul with a transparent body until the Judgement day that you will have a new body like your current body. right now your body is made of soil (foods of your mother).
        brain is only a terminal between body and soul.
        http://www.al-islam.org/gallery/kids/Books/unseen/title.htm
        http://www.al-islam.org/the-hereafter/

        "What you believe is that after you are dead you are going to better place and live you life with all you dead ancestors and so on. "
        perhaps I go to a worse place. people change during life and I am not sure God has accepted my good deeds. God does not accept any good deed.

        "So why would god in the first place create this life "
        God Intended to be known so created world and human and free will and wisdom and good and evil.

        "Would not be more logical that god is trynig to overcome himself and improve"
        1- we have no power against God. did you decide to be born? or can you not die?
        2- God is not responsible to any one.
        3- the goal of God for creating human is not good life of human. goal is to God be known. if you consider the goal of life only welfare of human then OK this is not rational. but you do not define the goal of life and creation. God defined it.

        "trying to improve values of things"
        what you define value?
        some one defines calve food or enjoy or money or power or welfare or other.
        we define value nearing to God and making friendship with God.
      • Jul 10 2011: Sometimes Someone ,
        "You argument is like saying proving Relativity correct makes it from Einstein. "
        You are right about Relativity .
        But about Koran please note that no human claimed is writer of Koran. Even Muhammad (PBUH)
        Also by proving Koran I mean proving that Koran is not from any human. If this is proved there is no competitor for God.
        This is not all the argument. And please do not call me irrational before knowing the argument complete.
        If Koran be correct then who is its writer? (there is man proofs Koran can not be from human)

        "I am personally not sure yet that we poses free will "
        doubt between two option proved free will.


        "you have to first prove that I have free will then try to convince me that I have the choice of believing in Koran."
        Before that you should prove you are human then free will!
        Any topic has some assumptions. This is assumed in this topic and needs other topic. This is not irrational.

        "Omnipotence Paradox."
        This has a simple reply:
        it is logically impossible. If anything is possible God can do it. By definition God has maximally power and you say can God create a stone that can not lift?
        This is Impossible. First you prove it is possible then God can do it.
        Omnipotence Paradox is not a rational and logical argument. It is clear that impossible is not possible. Impossible is "nothing" that God can do it. If anything is possible God can do it. This is not rational. If you think much to such irrational paradoxes you will become crazy.
        Lets talk rational.

        "Writing lengthy discussion does not constitute a proof."
        Agree. Also saying this does not disprove it.

        "The "Kausar" does not mean what you say in that context and you know it. "
        Kausar is famous. If you do not know something please do call it distortion. Kausar is a famous word in Koran:
        http://tanzil.net/#108:1
        Please do not claim. If you have other possible meaning show it.
      • Jul 10 2011: "Considering the rest of Kayyam's work it is clear that he doesn't mean what you want him to mean."
        No problem. Why you not prove this. I can discuss any poem. I showed proof. But you only claim (about Khayyam)


        "The fact that other interpretations of Koran are welcomed as it is so open ended for anyone to abuse it "
        Agree. And many apparently Muslims do this. But when considering proofs and evidences of each interpret not all of them are correct. Interpret with no proof is not valid.
        About killing please note the emperor justifying Koran for killing never care about proofs and simply kills who want to disprove his interpret.
        Please see the life of:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        They wanted to disprove interpret of Muslim emperors and they killed or jailed.

        "be logical deduction not interpretation."
        My interpret of that poem has enough evidence. Also OK anywhere you feel I am interpreting false please ask me proof.

        "medicine"
        Many people accuse me I am hiding behind Arabic language and claim westerns can not understand Arabic. I mean you can use a Arabic professional like a doctor to ask if my claims about errors (not perfect) translations are true or not.
        I said many times: translation is suitable for simple studying. But when discussing on social Arabic words it needs deep knowing of meaning of that word and only one translate is not enough for a proof.

        "6. All the ones which you referenced and are community edited."
        Not all. www.al-islam.org is community edited? Or www.makarem.ir


        you can call me irrational. and I am not hurt.
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      Jul 16 2011: I am sorry just to clarify and save time before entering the fray. Is there any proof that could ever be given to SR or any other Muslim advocate that the Koran and Mohammed are wrong?

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