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proving Koran
is there any proof that show Koran not from human and is from God?
1- It was opposite of most scientific and nonscientific beliefs of people of 1400 years ago that leaded to wars between prophet and Arabs. So Koran was not copied. People had 360 God and stars were daughters of God and many more silly beliefs. I suggest study context of Arabia at that time.
2- Koran said earth is round
3- Koran said sun will turn off one day
4- Koran has many amazing numbers in words letters ,.. that makes many amazing facts.(more than accidental)
5- Koran says sun is moving
6- It is 1400 years Koran is shouting http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:88 and Koran has many enemies but no one claimed could. Many tried but it was not more than joke. (themselves accepted. Fact in history until now)
Koran said human can pass layers of skies and earth and can go to skies but needs some power. and even said human can control moon and sun and what are in skies:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/55:33
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/45:13
7- Koran describes the steps of growth of fetus in womb in 7 presise.
8- Koran appeared in city of Mekka that many conservative Jews and Christians also lived there and they had high power. Also many enemies of prophet among Arab all were trying to disprove and destroy new prophet. Koran may times claimed you can not make a book or a chapter like Koran. Indeed if they could they made a book similar to Koran against Koran to not cost for war. But there is not still any book similar Koran.
9- Koran was said during 23 years by prophet. You know the ideas of a writer changes over time. But Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict.
10- There is many facts in history many famous people in Arab wanted to destroy Koran but no one could.
11- There is no proved conflict in Koran with science.
they are only some facts about Koran.
**before referring to a verse please read it yourself and do not copy from invalid and biased links**
Jocelyne . 10+
Why do we focus so much on such minute details such as; 'Koran says sun is moving' - seriously, does this even matter?
Can we please focus on the beautiful message the Koran is trying to express. The same message the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita etc are all trying to express -Loving, understanding, compassion... How come we are missing the point when it's that simple?
Why do we keep doing this?
Comment deleted
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"prophet (a sex addict)"
Muhammad (PBUH) was not a sex addict. proof: 1- he married late and before marriage was poor and had not woman. 2- his first wife was not young. 3- he had only one wife until his first wife died. after death of his first wife (when himself was no longer young) he had only one young wife because of political reasons not for sex. also she was not child. she was adult and her age is not clear in history but most probably she has been 15-17 at marriage. yes some references say 6 years. but all references should be considered not only one. some references say more than 20.
'Only the religion of Koran has such a concept of Allah who collide with an uneducated, polygamist, child lover prophet. no respect for other gods of other religions."
uneducated was to God prove knowledge of prophet had not any human source.
"polygamist"
what is problem of polygamist? it is allowed in Islam and Koran. a Muslim can have up to 4 wife but has very hard terms and a Muslim prefer 1 because of hard terms. In Iran polygamist is very rare.
about prophet it was especial orders of God and not for all Muslims. and his wives were widows and each case has especial story. i asked you many times study about his marriages. I can not explain all here.
because you do not like polygamy so it should be banned by God? you decide for God?
"child lover prophet."
this is false. no proof in valid history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt7vS7kxc50
"no respect for other gods of other religions."
no Koran respect God of Judaism and Christianity and God of prophets like Abraham and so on. but not consider cow and deity and stars and so on as God.
"no true religion in the world asks its followers to "lie" under certain circumstances. "
lie in Islam is great sin and not ask. but allowed only in 3 especial condition. not always.
"no true religion in the world ask its founder to marry a child."
agree. and not asked Islam. show evidence from Koran.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Islam not asked. but allowed in special conditions with hard terms.
do you know other true religions? Buddhism is not true religion. but Christianity and Judaism are true religions from God. are you sure they ban it? not church. but what Christ said.
"no true religion in the world ask its founder to marry wife of another man."
yes. also Islam. Islam not allow it. unless wife divorce and spend a special period of time then can marry new man.
"no true religion in the world ask its followers to fight with enemy."
fight in Islam has many rules and in especial cases like defend Islam allow fight. if some want to kill your family and friends what you do? stand and watch? or defend?
any religion not allow fight when needed is stupid. please first understand fight rules in Islam.
fight potentially is not bad. hos to use it can be bad. its like knife.
"no true religion in the world promises its followers houris (prostitutes?) in heaven."
so you do not know true religions.
"no true religion in the world treats its Allah as a pimp."
virgins are reward of believers. no problem. are you jealous?
what cows give their believers as reward? dung? milk? meat? [sorry when you do not respect my prophet I talk so]
"a Greek thinker had arrived at the same conclusion long before. don't make him a prophet of Allah."
yes. and I did not claim so. thousands of wonders of Koran together prove it. not only one.
""Koran said sun will turn off one day"
ok i agree."
now people know it. please consider it in context of tribal Arab of 1400 years ago. they had not NASA.
"" Koran says sun is moving"
what is the big deal here? a child of 1 yr old could say that."
child say apparently. but actually sun is moving. not relative.
"are you talking about the shouting from the loud speakers daily morning"
it means defiance ; gage to people make a verse like Koran. no one in history could until know. even great arab poets
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
human eye has not microscope and sonography.
""Koran may times claimed you can not make a book or a chapter like Koran"
ask a monkey with a typewriter."
no worthy to reply. I doubt you one day learn to talk respectfully. fear the punishment of God.
this is clear in history that no one could during history although many Arab poets and others tried
Jim Moonan 30+
For the most part I've listened to the debate, since others within it had more expertise on the subject. Here are the questions I still have:
Why would God's Word be so cryptic? And only in Arabic?
Why would God create a world that includes immeasurable pain and suffering for some but not for others?
Why would there be so many different religious beliefs, all claiming to be the Word of God?
How can any book claiming to be the Word of God not include recognition of the fact that our understanding changes as we evolve and therefore come out with subsequent editions to address those changes?
SR, I can almost hear your responses as I write. Your loyalty to the Koran is, I suppose, noble but in my opinion misguided. We agree to disagree I guess. When I tell you that I haven't read much of the Koran and don't intend to, I say that not because I don't care about finding out the meaning of life and beyond, but precisely because of it. I am fervent about it. I've also largely stopped reading other traditional religious books. I get it. I see what good they can provide and I see their limitations. I get it. I have moved on, I'm following other maps, listening to other people and to my own mind and heart. I am formulating my own thoughts.
Elam and Richard, I have learned a ton from both of you. Not much in regards to whether or not the Koran is the word of God - I kind of knew that already, having been brought up in a Irish Catholic family. I think what I have been most impressed with is your intellect and ambition to seek answers based on all knowledge - not just one reference. Peace and thanks.
Out of characters...
Elam Waltzing
The Islamic perspective of God leaves us with a God that acts like a tyrant. He threatens and points out with great clarity that he will personally participate in torturing us, his creation, in Hell. Then he offers us a paradise if we follow his guidelines, that is wholly separate from him and contains physical aspects that is assumed to be of interest or value to us. Paradise seems to appeal to what some would want if they still had earthly concerns after death, which I find strange. Heaven in the Bible is spending time communing with God and being in God's presence, which seems to make sense if God is good and the source of all life and knowledge and indeed where we came from. To be fair there is also some depiction's of Heaven in the Bible which include streets of gold etc. As if we humans would be interested in that after death.
Questions remain: How could God be willing and able to participate in tormenting and torturing his creation in Hell once their physical life on earth is done?
How is this morally possible?
How can God do this and also call himself Merciful and Forgiving, especially when he says that the infidel disbelievers will never be forgiven or released from their Hellish torment?
How can God be Loving, Merciful, and Forgiving and still literally “curse” certain members of his creation? This is decidedly schizophrenic.
It appears that only if one believes Allah is God first, can you justify this nonsense.
Con't.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"The Islamic perspective of God leaves us with a God that acts like a tyrant. "
God is both merciful and tyrant (tyrant while Just. without neglecting any little good deed)
God is not only tyrant. he is tyrant for his enemies who fight God. not fir his friends. all human have equal opportunity in their life to be friend of God or friend of Satan (enemy of God).
so better to see all aspects of God not only one aspect.
it is like a fair boss who say: it you work well I double your wage and if work bad I fire you. then a lazy employee say: the boss is tyrant. and a clever says: what a bounteous boss.
actually believing God is all Love and not send anyone to Hell is not a real Image of God and Indeed is false Image. if so then God is stupid to created world and life and human. from first God could send all to heaven and also if so then what about evil people who do any kind of evil deed and kill other and steal and so on then no punish! this human is equal to a good human who help others and loves humans? no. God is not all Love. God is Just.
http://www.shiamultimedia.com/englishbooks1.html
"that is wholly separate from him"
paradise is not separate of God. humans can meet God in paradise. meeting God is one reward of human in paradise.
"Paradise seems to appeal to what some would want if they still had earthly concerns after death, which I find strange. "
human before and after death is same and one soul. only changing body. like changing cloth. and same interests.
"How could God be willing and able to participate in tormenting and torturing his creation in Hell once their physical life on earth is done? "
simply!. why God should be as you want? God is not responsible to anyone and do anything wants. this is mind of Jews who want to God behave as they want.
why not? what is the problem with sending human to fire?
its like you make a doll and burn it. doll has not any right against you.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
it is moral. because God said it to humans and gave humans enough time (life) to avoid it. so it is moral. if God did not say it, it was not moral.
also do not compare the human-human relations to God-human relations. the existence of human is from God and human has no right from God. we should thank God that created us from nothing. but a human can not burn other human and is not moral.
"How can God do this and also call himself Merciful and Forgiving,"
God has two kind of mercy. the entire mercy only for life and is for all humans. giving food, water air eye ear think brain wisdom knowledge and so on is for all and is entire merciful. the especial merciful is only for friends of God and God never called himself merciful for his enemies.
merciful has terms. it is like a bank says: we give loan. OK. with what term? any one can get loan?
" especially when he says that the infidel disbelievers will never be forgiven or released from their Hellish torment? "
when God said this? human has opportunity to return to God until his last second of life and God forgive him. one infidel disbeliever came to prophet and became believer while they spent all their life disbelieving and accidentally died same day without even one praying and prophet said he entered paradise because he returned God and God forgiven him.
this is very amazing:
http://tanzil.net/#39:53 (all)
also Satan cheat some believers spending all their life believing at final seconds of life and they die disbeliever and God Hell. only powerful belief with enough proof can pass the hard induces of false beliefs by Satan before death. Satan do his best before death.
"How can God be Loving, Merciful, and Forgiving and still literally “curse” certain members of his creation? This is decidedly schizophrenic. "
Love of God is for who obey God and hate of God is for who disobey God. this is clear. God never said his Love is for all equal even cruel evil emperors.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
why God should Love all people even extreme humans?
http://tanzil.net/#5:100
http://tanzil.net/#11:24
are they equal?
Elam Waltzing
Who among us has never done any wrong?
Allah only does positive things for those who 'fear him and obey the messenger'. All others will meet him in Hell where he will take out his anger on them in violent acts perpetrating endless pain and humiliation that could only come from a source of hatred.
Why?
Did the creator of the Universe have such enormous hatred for what he was creating?
Is he a Sadist torturing and humiliating us for his own pleasure? Humiliating humanity does not make sense in the context of God. Humiliating and tormenting people is negative and hateful energy which simply cannot be justified. Oh ya, 'might makes right', 'the ends justify the means'. This philosophy doesn't work. Life is a journey, the ends do not justify the means. The means, that which you do and think, represent your position in life. Doing bad things to get the result you want is a really poor, if not impossible, position for God to take in my opinion.
Furthermore why does Allah say the Qur'an's message is a confirmation of Biblical scriptures which bring a message of love, and then change the message to one of spite and hatred. Love is only doled out (if at all) to those who follow his instructions explicitly.
This scripture leaves me with a quiet assurance that Allah has got it all wrong.
Gotta go.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
people have free will. do not you see disbelievers?
God forces his will to animals. they have no free will.
believe with force has no value. this exactly why human go to paradise and animals no.
“Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”
please first understand Koran well.
what Koran says is this:
1- God guides all humans EQUAL by sending prophets. prophets are not only for believers.
2- some appreciate God and hear to prophets and get reward.
3- some do not care prophets and curse prophets and say prophets are magicians and liars. they worth punish and the punish of them is: “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”
so please note “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.” is kind of punish for select of them. this is not at first. at first God guides all equal. if you read the past and after of verses you get it.
"Who among us has never done any wrong? "
this punish is not for who do a wrong. God forgives thousands times. this is for who there is not even a tiny possibility of return to God and has done so many evil deeds that is drawn extreme in evil and has destroyed all bridges his behind. this is not for all evil people. few people has such condition. God is merciful and does not punish by one wrong. make sure this rule is not for you.
this is for leaders and heads of evil in world. who are extreme evil with no little good.
"Allah only does positive things for those who 'fear him and obey the messenger'. All others will meet him in Hell"
no no. God is merciful. and forgives. please do not make a cruel Image of God. please see all aspects of God together.
http://tanzil.net/#39:53
I think you need some balance:
please see this example of 422 verses about mercy of God to become balanced;
http://tanzil.net/#search/root/%D8%B1%D8%AD%D9%85
the mercy of God overtook his angry
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
because God is impartial ; just ; righteous
"Did the creator of the Universe have such enormous hatred for what he was creating? "
this is required for knowing God. if God not do this God will not be known.
God love himself and Love means "no other" so who disobey God means loves a thing other than God and so God does not love who love anything other than God. obeying unless God means loving unless God. how God love who love a thing other than God?
how God love who loves food more than God? or money or other things? who gives money to orphan because of God proves that Loves God more than God. and his claim of love is not lie.
God loves only himself and and who love other thing God not love him. only who forget anything unless God become like God and same as God and God love him. not loving is known hate by us.
God said:
who Love me, I Love him. and who I love him I kill him. and who I kill his wergild is on me
and who his wergild is on me, I myself am his wergild.
"Is he a Sadist torturing and humiliating us for his own pleasure?"
not for pleasure. God has no need to pleasure. this is attribute of God.
its like blue that is attribute of sky.
"Humiliating humanity does not make sense in the context of God."
God is not human. human-human relation is different of human-God relation.
we have nothing against God.
"Furthermore why does Allah say the Qur'an's message is a confirmation of Biblical scriptures which bring a message of love"
if you do more and more and more research and research and research you will find [perhaps at end of your life] that both are same message of Love. but if you not interpret Love as you like.
a true love is what beloved wants. not what I want.
when you could remove yourself and all be God then you and God are one like a drop in ocean and you become God.
Hafiz:
you yourself are your curtain, so stand up from between.
[it means if you really Love God and leave yourself you meet God. even before death]
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Questions like "Is there life after death? Is there life elsewhere in our galaxy or beyond? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven? Is there a Hell? Etc."
Can not be solved using religion. They should be solved by wisdom of each human individually. Religion is the next step. If some one accepted God exist then asks how I can know and near to God. Religion of for nearing and becoming friend of God. Not for replying such questions.
I try answer your hard questions with my limited knowledge:
"Why would God's Word be so cryptic? "
This is for Love. God loves human and made this game (world and life) and wanted to human know and find God little by little not at once. If human know God at once then human was angel and knowledge with no free will has no value. Its like a robot that you copy all the books to its mind. So finding and loving God while you have option to not know God and be evil has more beauty and value in the God-human relation. It is because Love.
[also a girl shows her beauties step by step to make the man her lover]. This is kind of coquetry.
"And only in Arabic?"
Some reply from Koran:
http://tanzil.net/#14:4
http://tanzil.net/#41:44
http://tanzil.net/#26:198
http://tanzil.net/#12:2
http://tanzil.net/#39:28
Also Arabic is very powerful language.
"Why would God create a world that includes immeasurable pain and suffering for some but not for others?"
God is Just and gives reward to cover pains. In this world or after death.
Also pains and sicks are for healthy humans to think and know the value of Gift of God (health)
"Two gift are unknown: health and security" prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
Also all humans have pain and problems even rich people. No problem is impossible In this world.
"life and problems are mixed" prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
"Why would there be so many different religious beliefs, all claiming to be the Word of God?"
God built the belief and religion inside the human and human can not live without any kind of belief. Religion is one inner
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"Why would there be so many different religious beliefs, all claiming to be the Word of God?"
God built the belief and religion inside the human and human can not live without any kind of belief. Religion is one inner need of human.
Also belief to a superior being (even a deity or money or cow) is an inner need of human.
"understanding changes as we evolve and therefore come out with subsequent editions to address those changes?"
All holy books (like Torah Bible Koran) are the same from same God and the next is the subsequent edition of past. Humans make them different and make them for themselves. Book are for all humans and not for a special nation.
"Your loyalty to the Koran is, I suppose, noble but in my opinion misguided."
No problem. I am happy to you help me I understand my mistakes.
"I am fervent about it. I've also largely stopped reading other traditional religious books. I get it. I see what good they can provide and I see their limitations. I get it. I have moved on, I'm following other maps, listening to other people and to my own mind and heart. I am formulating my own thoughts."
I do not want you accept Koran and Islam. I only want you start hearing others and using your own think instead of media think for you.
You have open mind and you worth the name of human!
Sophie Otto
CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW, FOR THE COMPLETE WORK OF AHMAD VON DENFFER::
http://islamworld.net/docs/UUQ/index.html
AN INTRODUCTION TO THE SCIENCES OF THE QUR'AN
NOBODY REALLY CARES WHAT YOU WILL THINK AFTER READING IT,
BUT YOU ARE INFORMED FROM NOW ON.
ISLAM IS BEYOND YOUR UNDERSTANDING, AND IT IS MENTIONED SO
IN THE QUR'AN, THE HOLY MESSAGE WILL BE CLEAR ONLY TO THOSE
WHO ARE READY FOR IT AND WHO DESERVE IT, THE HIGHER YOUR
INTELLECTUAL AND EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE BALANCE, THE MORE
EASIER IT IS TO PERCEIVE THE MESSAGE OF QUR'AN, THE MORE PH.Ds
ONE LIKELY HAVE OBTAINED AND MORE PRACTICES EXPERIENCED IN
THEIR KNOWLEDGE IN LIFE, THE MORE LIKELY ONE TO UNDERSTAND THE
CLEAR MESSAGE OF THE UNIVERSAL ISLAM - ONE ENERGY WHERE ALL COME FROM
AND WHERE ALL WILL RETURN, REGARDLESS OF IF THEY BELIEVE IT OR NOT, WANT IT OR NOT.
DO NOT SAY THAT YOU WERE NOT TOLD SO.
Comment deleted
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"ISLAM IS BEYOND YOUR UNDERSTANDING"
not mean you can not understand Islam.
it means Islam is an unlimited ocean of knowledge that if all human add their think and try and science together still can not finish knowledge of Islam and every one can learn and near God using Islam as much as he can.
it means knowledge of Islam is much higher than capacity of any human.
how much your stomach can drink from an ocean of wine?
also ocean is limited but Islam is unlimited.
Jim Moonan 30+
Elam Waltzing
"Inclusive = good, exclusive = bad." That's it.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
all?!
Elam Waltzing
Jim Moonan 30+
It would be wise for all of us to step back, just for a moment, and see what has happened within this conversationGo ahead... Step back just for a moment, and be self-critical. It helps more than it hurts. What good has come from it? How has the dialog helped shed light? Where are each of us now? Reflect and learn. If you don't it will be your loss...
I have learned much. A sincere "thank you" to all.
Elam Waltzing
It seems like there is nothing more to say after this. Just reflect, look at the other guys point of view with compassion and understanding. Thus we learn and grow. I have learned some important things from this debate. And I have accepted some revised knowledge which I did not have before.
I'm of the belief that I can receive a spiritual message, i.e. read the Bible, Tao, Buddha etc. and make my own analysis, I can do some research and talk to other people and revise my interpretations accordingly. I like to search for the core message in spiritual thought.
When I read the Qur'an and do the same thing. SR tells me that the words on the page mean something different than what they say and that there is a world conspiracy trying to cover up the truth that only Islam can unlock.
If I come to a conclusion other than the 'right one' then I am listening to propaganda. If I accept what they spoon feed me, like SR has done, then I am on the right path.
I personally find this offensive. In my opinion, SR has bought into the Islamic propaganda hook, line and sinker. He is not able to consider that this doctrine is not an accurate depiction of God. He is not willing to consider that God may not be Allah. It appears as though he is not willing or able to reason on his own.
Convince me that there is no God and I will accept it. Convince me that Yahwey is God and I will accept it. Convince me that Allah is God and I will accept it. So far the more I study Islam the more I am convinced that Allah is not God. Thank God! This is very liberating. Islam seems to imprison its faithful in endless rituals and convoluted reasoning which doesn't stand up to independent scrutiny. The endless bickering and threats of punishment in hell also don't sit well with me. The core message of Islam is arrogant and short on spiritual awareness from my point of view, with no proof.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
you use words show you are not still sure.
research and research.
Raj Bhakta
You can't just prove a religious text is right because some of its predictions are somehow reflected in discoveries in modern science and such.
The only evidence you do have at your disposal (as do other religious activists) is going to lie in pseduscience and pseudophilosophy which can't be proven. Yeah, if you have good intellectual skills you may be able to put up a good argument with certain evidence by questioning the validity and such but you may NEVER SCIENTIFICALLY prove any book is "right". Science has done a good job in its attempt to filter knowledge and feed it to humanity the right way instead of just feeding humanity something that "looks right".
You'll be caught in an infinite regression of argumentation if you attempt to prove the Koran or any religious text for that matter with just argumentation of pseudoscientific and psuedophilosophical claims.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes. this shows the value of Koran. Koran will never be filtered with sciense.
please instead of accusing me prove one error in Koran.
any book from human has errors especially 1400 years after writing.
Stephen Lewis
"But Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict."
This is a claim you make in a response.
"only one word of Koran has conflict in text but is not important in meaning."
Lets assume Koran is truth. Mans interpretation of Koran is fallible.
I believe you have doubts. If you were complete with your own thoughts, you would not find it so compelling to prove it to anyone else. I too am on the fence and am waiting for someone to convince me I'm wrong. It is the nature of man to seek answers.
The truth is as long as you are happy and I am happy then we are happy. You and I will meet our ends one day. Let's let our truths be realized then. Peace
Ed Schulte 50+
With all due respect I trust that you are aware that the Richard Dawson you have seen exchanging with could well have been the same RD as the author of "The God Delusion" ??
"He is sympathetic to Robert Pirsig's statement in Lila that "when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion"
with only 5 days left before closure it would good if some of the TRUE potential of the Koran were to be brought out.,
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
first please look at this long list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions
I agree "when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion"
but this is not true about Abraham religions.
Abraham religions have not human sources.
but other human made religions like atheism and Buddhism and so on you are correct.
believing that God not exist without proof is delusion.
what you mean by TRUE potential of the Koran? example?
Jason Kather 10+
Please give your thoughts on the following excerpt taken from an Islamic reference:
"The common notion of abrogation, that is, canceling of one law or code by another, is based on the idea that a new law is needed because of a mistake or shortcoming in the previous one. It is clearly inappropriate to ascribe a mistake in law-making to God, Who is perfect, and whose creation admit of no flaws.
However, in the Quran, the abrogating verses mark the end of the validity of the abrogated verses because their heed and effect was of a temporary or limited nature. In time the new law appears and announces the end of the validity of the earlier law. Considering that Quran was revealed over a period of twenty-three years in ever-changing circumstances, it is not difficult to imagine the necessity of such laws.
It is in this light that we should regard the wisdom of abrogation within the Quran:
"And when we put a revelation in place of (another) revelation and Allah knows best what He reveals -- they say: you are just inventing it. Most of them do not know. Say: The Holy Spirit (Gibril) has revealed it from your hand with truth and as a guidance and good news for those who have surrendered (to God)" [16:101-102]"
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2656
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I explained this here:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html
please read carefully.
it is not changing mind in God. it is changing command according to change in context of human life.
example:
people came to home of prophet and sit there and not go out. and prophet did not say them go your home. they only sit and not any question or useful talk. only wasting time.
so God sent a verse and said:
who wants to visit prophet should pay one coin.
then no one visited prophet unless Ali. Ali came to prophet and asked him questions and learned the knowledge from God about every thing.
then God again sent a verse:
if you want to visit prophet not need to pay money any more. the past rule is cancelled.
I hope you got it.
it is in fact teaching to people. not God has problem.
Jason Kather 10+
I will go into more detail as to how the teachings of the Koran got progressively more hostile as the book reaches the end. The earlier teachings were much more about love and the later were much more about smiting enemies of Islam. There are clear contradictions in the Koran. This proves your #9 point wrong.
By the way, you didn't convince me of anything else concerning the perfection of the book in question.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Koran is update and fresh until end of world.
can you show some example that needs abrogated?
also Koran has many verses of Love. but people do not know it well.
'There are clear contradictions in the Koran."
example? the claim does not prove.
this is not for convincing the perfection. it needs your interest and time and more study.
Jason Kather 10+
The verse that Abrogated (nullified) the Peace Verses.
An example of the abrogation: There are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience that have been cancelled and replaced by one, single verse. This verse is called the verse of the sword:
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." Surah 9:5
Verses that support the verse of the Sword
1) “Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of believers” (Surah 9:14).
2) “O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque” (Surah 9:28).
3) “The Jews call ‘Uzayr a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!” (Surah 9:30).
4) “O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell – an evil refuge indeed” (Surah 9:73).
5) “O ye who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him” (Surah 9:123)"
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
fight in Islam has many rules and is not for any kind of non Muslims.
this is not fair picking only sword verses.
please consider all and understand in which conditions Islam allow fight.
also wars after prophet with pagan Arab emperors in the name of Islam is different of wars of prophet himself.
Jason Kather 10+
1) “Those who believe (in the Qua’an), and the Christians and the Sabians – any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve” (Surah 2:62).
2) “Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplish his purpose” (Surah 2:109).
3) “But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them – barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind” (Surah 5:13).
4) “Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself no protector or intercessor except Allah: if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in rejecting Allah” (Surah 6:70)."
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
they are apparently conflict verses. but they are defining different conditions and different rules. all verses should be considered together and any action should have conflict with even one verse of Koran. unless it is not Islamic. the verses are limitations for actions of Muslims and define how Muslims should behave. but few Muslims obey all verses of Koran. usually Muslims pick the verse fitting their benefit.
Jason Kather 10+
6) “And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury); but say, ‘We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)” (Surah 29:46).
7) “And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): worship none but Allah” (Surah 2:83).
8) “Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that we are sincere (in our faith) in Him?” (Surah 2:139)
9) “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors” (Surah 2:190)
10) “But fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there” (Surah 2:191)
11) “But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful” (Surah 2:192)."
Jason Kather 10+
13) “So if they dispute with thee, say: ‘I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me,’ And say to the People of the Book and so to those who are unlearned: ‘do ye (also) submit yourself? If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message” (Surah 3:20).
14) “Let not the Believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers; if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourself from them” (Surah 3:28).
15) “Those men – Allah knows what is in their hearts; so keep clear of them, but admonish them, and speak to them a word to reach their souls” (Surah 4:63) .
16) “He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: but if any turn away, we have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds)” (Surah 4:80).
17) “But Allah records their nightly (plots): so keep clear of them, and put thy trust in Allah” (Surah 4:81).
18) “Then fight in Allah’s cause – thou art held responsible only for thyself” (Surah 4:84).
19) “Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore, if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of ) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)” (Surah 4:90).
20) “O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the Symbols of Allah, nor of the Sacred Month” (Surah 5:2)."
http://www.islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
but it is not abrogated.
verses of Koran totally should be done. not only one that fit benefit.
this is problem of Muslims. not Islam and Koran and God.
Muslim is different of Islam.
Islam is a perfect instruction but Muslims are not perfect.
the people Koran was sent to them did not have value of Koran.
Koran also say this:
http://tanzil.net/#47:38
this verse shows God is not satisfied from Arabs that God sent Koran to them and God wants to substitute them with another people to use Koran better.
Jason Kather 10+
You're just not telling the truth.
" no verse is abrogated in Koran.
they are apparently conflict verses. but they are defining different conditions and different rules"
Abrogation is taught in Islam. Explain: "And when we put a revelation in place of (another) revelation and Allah knows best what He reveals -- they say: you are just inventing it. Most of them do not know. Say: The Holy Spirit (Gibril) has revealed it from your hand with truth and as a guidance and good news for those who have surrendered (to God)" [16:101-102]" if it is not the basis for the Abrogation of verses.
Conflicted verses proves your #9 claim 100% wrong. The Verse of the Sword is a perfect example to disprove many of your arguments. I can show other examples as well, but I will not move on until you truthfully address this example.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I have explained this many times before.
please read it here:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html
this is an example of what you say:
example:
people came to home of prophet and sit there and not go out. and prophet did not say them go your home. they only sit and not any question or useful talk. only wasting time.
so God sent a verse and said:
who wants to visit prophet should pay one coin.
then no one visited prophet unless Ali. Ali came to prophet and asked him questions and learned the knowledge from God about every thing.
then God again sent a verse:
if you want to visit prophet not need to pay money any more. the past rule is cancelled.
I hope you got it.
it is in fact teaching to people. not God has problem.
please note Abrogation is different of contradict.
when Koran Abrogates a verse clearly say that the past verse about this subject is Abrogated from now. this is conflict?
it is like a commander in a war orders : go ahead and some days later says: the past command is Abrogated and now come back. this is not conflict.
also about peace and fight verses if you read them carefully and exactly you find they have not conflict because each verse is for diffrent people and diffrent condition. if Koran have two verse in this form:
1- fight x people in condition y
2- peace x people in condition y
then you are OK this is conflict
but if say:
1- fight x people in condition y
2- peace z people in condition w
then this is not contradict
Koran not say fight any kind of non muslim. also Koran say killing some kind of muslims.
please read verses carefully and know exactly who Koran say to fight.
Jason Kather 10+
Which claim are you standing by?
"No verse is abrogated in Koran."
Or...
"please note Abrogation is different of contradict.
when Koran Abrogates a verse clearly say that the past verse about this subject is Abrogated from now."
If I am going to continue to debate this subject with you, I insist on you being truthful for the future exchanges. I also suggest not attempting to confuse the actual subject by using poor comparisons to hypothetical situations. Argue your points from the information quoted from the Koran, the book in question.
Tell me what THE VERSE OF THE SWORD means to you---But only do it if you are going to answer truthfully. Then explain to me how that does not contradict with the 20 "friendly" verses I listed above.
I am willing to discuss other clear examples of contradiction in the Koran, but let's get to the truth about this one first.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
my language is not english.
I had a misunderstanding of Abrogation.
I say:
Koran has Abrogation but this is not error or contradiction. the Abrogations in Koran are clear and show the change of order of God for change in behavior of people. this is not error.
about THE VERSE OF THE SWORD it says fighting to some ESPECIAL people. please do not misinterpret Koran about who should be fought. first understand who and in what condition Koran says should be fought. then say your argument.
if Koran say fight people X IF they did behavior Y this not mean Koran says all non muslims should be killed.
for example Koran says kill who pray things other than God IF they wanted to kill you. this has 2 term.
I only say please be honest and first understand what Koran says and do not misquote Koran.
many non muslims are respected by Koran and Islam and many Muslims should be killed according Koran.
Jason Kather 10+
There you go with X and Y explanations again. Please tell me what The verse of the sword means to you and how it does not contradict the 20 "friendly" verses I quoted above. Please tell me TRUTHFULLY if The Verse of the Sword is seen as an abrogating verse (I know the answer already, but I want to see if you will admit it).
You say that the Koran has no contradictions. If the Koran says two different things, it has contradictions. Abrogation of verses proves the Koran says two different things.
I am not sure that you had a misunderstanding of abrogation, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. We are making some progress here, but it seems you keep trying to slow it down.
Again, I say that if there was need to change orders from Allah in the 23 years it took to write the book, how is it not needed to change much more in the 1400 years since then? Please give an honest answer for this too.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
please read here:
http://goo.gl/j66hs
"Please tell me TRUTHFULLY if The Verse of the Sword is seen as an abrogating verse "
it is not abrogating verse.
it is not general and is for special people.
"The command was not general but only refers to particular groups of the Makkan idolaters who were notorious offenders. They used to harass the Muslims whenever they found them helpless and when overpowered prayed for amnesty by making treaties which they used to break before their ink was dried. "
"You say that the Koran has no contradictions. If the Koran says two different things, it has contradictions."
yes. Koran in few cases says clearly that a past command is Abrogated and this new command should be done. this is Abrogation and are few known cases. contradiction is completely different thing.
"Abrogation of verses proves the Koran says two different things.'
yes two different thing. but the past is clearly cancelled by new clear command. did you read my example of Abrogation? (paying money for visiting prophet)
about peace and sword verses you say there is no Abrogation or contradiction and each verse is for different people and different case.
http://goo.gl/j66hs
"Again, I say that if there was need to change orders from Allah in the 23 years it took to write the book, how is it not needed to change much more in the 1400 years since then? "
only few cases needed change that God clearly in Koran made changes and cleared the changes and few abrogations finished by finishing of revelation of Koran. if needed more abrogation Indeed God did it before finishing revelation.
"how is it not needed to change much more in the 1400 years since then? '
some needed change not mean always Koran should change. this argument is not valid.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
http://tanzil.net/#9:1
please read here about this subject:
http://www.al-islam.org/peace-jihad-in-islam/3.htm
http://www.al-islam.org/peace-jihad-in-islam/
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S.R. Ahmadi 20+
you do not know how much Iqbal made me angry and I controlled myself it is some month he is throwing me such thing about Islam. finally I decided to show him how is not respecting others. this was only one lesson to him and now I apologize him.
back or front to Kaaba is not important. obeying real God is important. and God said we pray in this form.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
we are brothers. peace and talk is better.
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S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Elam Waltzing
you say, "why war?
we are brothers. peace and talk is better." Agreed. Therefore stop following the Qur'an. The basic idea of Islam is that there will be peace only when everyone in the world see's it their way.
Qur'an 8:39 "(Believers), fight them until there is no more persecution, and all worship is devoted to Allah alone:"
Not reason with them, not patiently show them your message until the see the validity or beauty of it. No, fight them means in a physical sense. Your country was defeated militarily by Muslim aggressors from Arabia, as was most of the Middle East. Islam failed when reason alone was used, only after the Hijrah when Muslims used aggression, terror and war against their neighbors did the religion flourish. Don't lie, you know this is the truth. Read the Hadith. Muhammad ordered his followers to invite others to join Islam and pay the taxes. If they refused, his followers were to fight them until they were subdued.
History is written by the victors. If the Muslims had not overpowered Persia by force and then brainwashed to people into believing Islam, you would not be a Muslim today. You would independently read the Qur'an for the first time and probably (like me) think "this is crap"!
Does Islam have the one and only true message? Well if you have to spend lifetimes explaining the contradictions, historical falseness, divergence from previous scripture that it is supposed to confirm and outright lies in the scripture, then No.
You think the reasoning of these explanations is sound but it only works if you start out believing in the Qur'an and use convoluted reasoning to explain it. In the end, an open mind will admit that Islam creates separation.
How can peace be found by forcing everyone to Submit to a particular doctrine? This requires dictatorial rule and tyranny. Kinda like what you see in all Islamic countries in the world today.
Once again: You can surrender to Love, but you cannot be in Submission to it.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Quran is not a cause of war. war exist in anyway. war is nature of human. the Palestinians killed are for Quran?
anything we follow war always exist. can you show one day in history of human with no war?
100% peace is impossible.
peace is better but some times there is no solution unless war. like defend.
war is last solution like cutting sick organ of body.
talk and logic in peace is better.
"Qur'an 8:39 "(Believers), fight them "
please do not pick war verse. also pick peace verse. war in Islam has many rules and not any non Muslim should be killed. who block hearing by people should be killed. not all.
"Not reason with them, "
please be honest. Koran is not only this verse.
fight them. who are them? them is defined. please do not interpret "them" by yourself
'Islam failed when reason alone was used"
please be honest. Muhammad sent letter to Persia empire and he turned off it. this is reason? they even did not want to talk Muslims. the first letter of Islam was tear up and no talk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_letters_to_the_Heads-of-State
"Don't lie, you know this is the truth."
oh my God! you know better what is truth. truth is not what Freemason Jews feed him.
"Muhammad ordered his followers to invite others to join Islam and pay the taxes."
he started by sending letter and inviting to talk. but they replied letter by war.
what means tearing up a letter?
also please distinguish wars of Muhammad (PBUH) himself and wars of pagan Arab emperors after prophet in the name of Islam.
"If they refused, his followers were to fight them until they were subdued."
this is not in Hadith. Koran clearly say:
http://tanzil.net/#2:256 people are free to accept or not accept Islam. please first understand Islam. fight is with Kings (like church) that isolate their people from truth about Islam and feed lie about Islam to their people. Islam only wants to talk free and all hear free. who block talk, Islam fight him.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"History is written by the victors. If the Muslims had not overpowered Persia by force and then brainwashed to people into believing Islam, "
all have history. not only arabs. Persia itself has history.
Persians are not monkey. they select by think an wisdom. this is Indeed false that Islam spread with sword.
"Does Islam have the one and only true message?"
there is no God but Allah.
"You think the reasoning of these explanations is sound but it only works if you start out believing in the Qur'an and use convoluted reasoning to explain it. I'
please do not prejudice. ocean of knowledge and reason exist about Islam. you only know little.
"How can peace be found by forcing everyone to Submit to a particular doctrine? "
who forced?
http://tanzil.net/#2:256
please first understand Islam. you have dark Image of Islam. your Image is not true.
if a Muslim force other to accept Islam he is not Muslim. he is pagan and should go Hell.
http://tanzil.net/#2:256
this is opposite to order of God.
Islam not fight for forcing other accept Islam. people are free to accept or not. fight is for other reason.
"Once again: You can surrender to Love, but you cannot be in Submission to it. "
your define of Love differs with mine.
but submission to God is best.
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S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I hope health for Richard,
please do not misquote Koran.
http://tanzil.net/#6:101 says: God has no child and never had any spouse. does not say what you say.
so as the default of your logic is false no need further reply.
about http://tanzil.net/#5:46 again misquote. Koran said only Bible (the book from God to Jesus (PBUH). an not said all books of new testimonials.
about earth and sun there is no doubt scenario of Richard was wrong and we had lots of talk please read them. no need to repeat.
"in their rounded celestial"
please show the ROUNDED in Arabic text of Kora. Koran said in their path. not said the shape of path.
"Although it does not explicitly say so, it obviously means its resting place at night. "
!!!
not said but is obvious?!!! how is obvious? are you God who said Koran? the resting point can be tomorrow or one billions years later. anyway you have no evidence that this resting point is "at night."
"actual setting place of the Sun in a muddy"
Koran says the story of Zul-Gharnain (perhaps Alexander) that he FOUND SUN SETTING. found it means APPARENTLY. NOT ACTUAL. it is addressing of a place (perhaps Azerbaijan)
"NOT ONCE in the Quran, does it talk about the Earth moving around the Sun."
I am not sure about it perhaps said. needs reserach. but so what? Koran is not only astronomy book. also Koran said sun is moving.
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S.R. Ahmadi 20+
it means when God has no spouse so Logically impossible to God have a son. it is irrelevant to power.
the 5:46 uses word انجيل which first is not plural. it means only one book (Bible). about translate usually Muslims do not know the difference between Bible and new testimonials and Gospel and usually consider them same. Muslims mostly know only Bible. and think like Koran there is only one book of Bible in Christianity and mostly do not know about others.
Gospel or new testimonials or Bible all means for Muslims one thing (usually. but some know it).
Muslims only recognize one book of Bible of time of Jesus (PBUH) as the book of Jesus (PBUH)
"along with the previous 3 points "
please do not mix irrelevant points of Koran to justify your claim. the story of zul-gharnain is different. it is story about what he apparently see. it is not what God says about earth.
how it means earth is flat? please clarify.
did you read our past comments?
"sets in the Earth at night."
please show me "at night" in Arabic Koran. and it is what zul-gharnan found it (apparently).
"This is also consistent with the prevalent belief of the times"
if you know history Koran has thousands of contradict with beliefs of that time.
Koran is from God. not from scientists of that time.
please first prove your claims then conclude.
"“swim along” in their rounded celestial "
i asked you show the "rounded" in arabic text of Koran.
when I said the moon is OK?
when I said Sun revolving around the centre of our galaxy ?
please show the "rounded" in arabic text of Koran.
"PS The sun doesnt set in Azerbaij "
when I said it?
you have not read past comments.
but i repeat again:
before continuing about earth setting in mud please read here if you are rational:
quran.al-islam.org
please read the commentary of that verse.
it is what zul-gharnain apparently see.
"where sun apparently set in mud" is a special place in earth
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S.R. Ahmadi 20+
who said this?
http://tanzil.net/#21:33
Koran says all of them (sun and earth) are moving in a path (like ship moving in sea like swimming)
but not said "rounded" orbit as Richard claimed.
please show me 'rounded"
"Is there in your mind just the teeniest weeniest bit of doubt that my explanation, rather than yours, is the right one? "
depends on your logic and proof. please do not accuse me for dogma. and show your rigid proof instead of claims.
“What would you accept as proof that the Koran is not perfectly true?”
proof is clear and no need to play with words.
"My explanation is much more reasonable than yours,"
Is there in your mind just the teeniest weeniest bit of doubt that my explanation, rather than yours, is the right one?
What is the probability in % age that you have, in your mind, to the POSSIBILITY that my explanation is the right one rather than yours?
What would you accept as proof that your claims about Koran are wrong?
only rigid proof shows which of us are correct.
accusing other side to dogma does not prove anything.
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S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes all "things" are possible for God. but what is impossible is not a "thing".
impossible does not exist logically. and is not a thing.
also this is a reply to who believed God is a man.
birth and child is for spices and spices are material. God is not material at all so how can be similar to material?
God is not human nor animal not material not have time nor have place. birth has no meaning about God. birth and children has meaning for material.
"why then is it logically possible, according to the Quran, for Mary to have a son without a spouse?"
although she had no husband God sent an angle to pregnant her by miracle. anyway she did not got pregnant alone.
"The Quran has the same ignorance as Muhammad and Muslims."
Koran says the انجيل (Bible) which means the book God sent to Jesus (PBUH). if bible is not the name of book God sent to Jesus (PBUH) what is correct name? Koran talks about it. not all testimonials.
not important what is translated. Koran means the book God sent to Jesus (PBUH) himself.
please see:
http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AC%D9%8A%D9%84
specially:
http://tanzil.net/#57:27
this says "we gave Jesus (PBUH) the انجيل" you translate انجيل what you like . bible or gospel or other. Koran means what was given to Jesus (PBUH) from God. not apostles.
inside testimonials the Torah and Bible was from God and other written by people later. not all is from people. each prophet (Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (PBUT)) had one book from God by revelation. and other is from people.
although today the original books of Jesus and Moses (PBUH) are not available 100% original and are partially deviated. but today Koran is 100% what exited from mouth of Muhammad (PBUH)
"He did not know it, "
each prophet know the past books word by word by Knowledge from God. many christian leaders came to prophet and he told them bible better than themselves.
I think gospel is not correct translate.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
friend. the did you read the story of zul-gharnain?
it is what he see apparantly when he reached to a special land. it is not saying of God. it is a story and what zalgharnin see. also God said many things quoted from evil people. it not mean it is saying from God. so it is mixing the irrelevant verses.
for example I say:
I went to a land where the sun never set. what mean this? this mean this is about the north pole. OK? it is also about a place. not what God says about sun.
"The Sun and the Moon “swim along” in their rounded celestial spheres"
oh my God! how many times I should repeat?
please show me "rounded" in Arabic Koran. it not said rounded. it means only path.
please do not repeat same thing before replying me.
"the sun rests (at night because that’s when the Sun sets) in a muddy spring (according to you in Azerbaijan).
"
where is "at night"?
muddy is apparently and is what a man see in a special land.
there are other verses. but you not seem rational. first read my replies. and do not repeat same thing before disproving my replies.
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S.R. Ahmadi 20+
because it means earth is round.
"This says nothing about the shape of the Earth at all. "
please assume two condition:
1- earth is flat
2- earth is round
and check this verse matches which?
how it is possible in flat earth?
"This is obviously from the pagan rituals that preceded Islam when idolaters worshipped the Kaaba."
they had 360 God and killed cow for God and stars were daughters of God. there is no similarity between Islam and Arab pagans.
"To pray with your backside facing the Kaaba is blasphemous. "
side is not important. obeying God is important.
"It is perfectly logical to pray facing Mecca on a flat Earth."
also on flat earth.
"If you were exactly on the opposite side of the Globe, which way would you face? "
this is defined in Islam. you can find reply of such questions in:
www.makarem.ir
"It is obvious the Quran does not have a clue about the roundness of the Earth."
I wonder how is obvious with no proof. pray to mecca does not mean earth is flat.
it is also correct in round earth.
"Not once in the Quran, does it talk about the Earth moving at all. "
please first read past comments carefully.
"In answer you produced 4 verses, which YOU claimed, said the Earth was moving. In fact NONE of them do."
this is your claim. proof?
"No one reading those verses could come to the conclusion they are saying the Earth is moving."
cradle is a moving object.
Koran also uses فراش in other verse which is fixed flat bed. why used مهد cradle here? and not used فراش؟ the difference of فراش and مهد is in moving of مهد
http://www.up2.ir/image-B9D0_4A6D04C8.jpg
http://anobanini.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5009&stc=1&d=1286800579
http://www.iranak.info/Download/DIRDataBase8/632928527080781250_623398_koodak-va-gahvareh.jpg
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S.R. Ahmadi 20+
bed has other word I explained it. bed= فراش
مهد = cradle. not bed. even if bed it means bed of baby.
"This is obviously metaphorical"
yes. actually earth is not cradle. but each metaphor has a message. metaphore is not 100% meaningless.
"the Earth as a flat firm place where roads have been laid out by Allah, for men to move on."
why flat? when said this verse flat?
"2. Not all cradles even in modern times move."
usually move. specially in 1400 years ago and in Arab community. the meaning in arab language is important. because Koran is arabic.
http://www.up2.ir/image-B9D0_4A6D04C8.jpg
http://anobanini.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5009&stc=1&d=1286800579
http://www.iranak.info/Download/DIRDataBase8/632928527080781250_623398_koodak-va-gahvareh.jpg
why Koran not said فراش in this verse but said فراش in other verses? and why said مهد about earth?
when Koran uses فراش and مهد in different verses what it means?
no it is certain.
"3. The meaning one gets from that verse is that "
this is mean you get. and needs proof based on original arabic language.
also I showed 4 verse for moving earth. not only this one.
possibility is not important. proof and evidence is important. you want to determine truth by voting and %?
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S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I can not see the "rounded". where is it?
the Arabic world is فلک which means path or orbit (not necessarily rounded, any shape) like the path of ship in sea. (predefined)
also it is not IMMATERIAL because you made a scenario about Koran based on such false interprets of Koran.
"That is what you can see with the naked eye."
where is rounded?
yes Koran says sun is moving. also science says this (see J Ali link). but Koran not said sun is moving around earth.
"he found it "
what means this:
1- it is what he (zul-gharnain (perhaps Alexsander) see not what Koran say. this is a quote (can be false).
2- found it means apparently. like: I traveled where sun never set (pole)
please be honest and do not try to prove something with misinterpret. use some rigid proof and honestly leave such kind of proof. what are you looking for? disproving Koran in any method? (even irrational method)
"The place of the setting of the Sun. Allah is saying this."
no if you read the story complete the place is a country. did you read the commentary from quran.al-islam.org?
"The place of the setting of the Sun. Allah is saying this."
please do not interpret as you like.
Allah said he reached a place that there he FOUND IT setting in mud. it means in that place he see the sun setting in mud. in that country the nature was like this. like north pole that sun never set.
what means found it setting?
"He is not talking about the Torah because he says that's what preceded it - he is talking about the Gospel which was not given to Jesus,"
in many verses talks about the book given to Jesus (PBUH)(انجيل. (gospel is a translate (possibly wrong))
please reply what is the name book Jesus (PBUH) himself received from God?
Koran clearly says "book received from God".
please check other translates.
mistake should have proof.
also check all translates.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/5:46
not all translated Gospel.
also what is difference of bible and Gospel?
Jesus (PBUH) himself had a book and Christians at time of life of him had that book and used it but when he disappeared the church collected all books of Jesus (PBUH) from people and until year 150 people had not Book of Jesus (PBUH).
then at year 150 church made 4 versions of Bible and distributed it to people.
Koran means the Book at time of Jesus (PBUH) himself. not books written after him.
can you clear me what is different of Bible and Gospel?
and do you agree Jesus (PBUH) himself had a book from God? what happened for that book?
Thomas Jones 100+
You have opened a dialogue to "prove the Koran" and you have said you are willing to accept "proof" that the Koran is NOT true.
Then, you demonstrate a deliberate and determined unwillingness to consider any "proof" that is presented to you.
So, let me ask you a simple question (and please provide a simple, concrete, unqualified answer):
What would you accept as proof that the Koran is not perfectly true?
If your answer is, "Nothing - the Koran cannot be proven to be untrue - it is perfect," or if your answer is, "I am willing to accept 'anything' that proves it is untrue [while you secretly hold to the belief that nothing can prove it is not true] then I suggest you are being deceptive in your invitation to discuss this topic openly and objectively.
The kind of answer I am looking for from you is: "If you can find one factual error in the Koran, I will accept that it is not perfectly true," or, "If you can find one discrepancy between science and the Koran, I will accept that it is not inerrant," or, "If you can find a discrepancy between how the Koran represents another religion and how that religion represents itself, I will accept that the Koran is not inerrant."
In other words, in concrete, unambiguous, unequivocal terms, tell us what you would accept as proof.
Please do not "deflect" by responding to something other than this very simple question:
My Dear S.R. Ahmadi,
What will you accept as proof that the Koran contains mistakes, errors and is not "perfect?"
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"What would you accept as proof that the Koran is not perfectly true?"
please PROVE any kind (scientific historical rational or other) of error in Koran.
or "If you can find one factual error in the Koran, I will accept that it is not perfectly true," or, "If you can find one discrepancy between science and the Koran, I will accept that it is not inerrant,"
please note me and you both are human and all humans have same logic. unless things like math not existed.
so please do not challenge me what is proof.
we all know what is proof.
I only mean do not believe anything TV feed you or links feed you are true.
I say:
leave your links and yourself read Koran and do a research then show your own proof.
copy&paste from an invalid link with no think is not proof.
the world is spreading propaganda against Islam and Koran and western people believe them.
I say:
for a moment assume all you heard about Islam is wrong and start your own research based on valid references. ( I do not say believe anything my links say. accept only your own think and wisdom but use valid sources and do not believe anything TV show you like Bin Laban Aisha etc...)
www.al-islam.org
www.shiamultimedia.com/englishbooks.html
www.makarem.ir
I think you know the news about "the news of the world" magazine.
http://www.presstv.com/usdetail/188911.html
this is only one example.
people are grown up with such media. they are trainer of children.
Thomas Jones 100+
The reason I ask you what you will accept as proof is that you seem completely unwilling to accept any "proof" that is offered to you. I have seen many very simple examples that are very clear. And you reject them. I am not going to repeat them because there is no reason to believe you will accept them simply because I am writing them.
I know of several errors in the Koran and, again, I have no intention of telling you what they are because I already know how you will respond: You will say that my "sources" are wrong - or my interpretation is wrong - or that the error does not appear in Arabic - etc - etc - etc.
You discount all "proof" by saying things like it it is not proof I only think it is proof, or some such thing.
I suspect that no matter what "proof" is presented to you, you will simply say it comes from "an invalid link" and then you will direct me to a "valid link."
The thing is, S.R. Ahmadi, that, for you, any link that is critical of the Koran is an "an invalid link" and the ONLY links you accept as "valid" support your belief.
This is intellectual naivety.
This is what I think: You are simply unwilling to accept there are any errors in the Koran so there is no point in trying to prove to you there are any. Again, you will simply say the link (or the person) who has provided the proof does not really know what they are talking about.
I also think you are using this discussion as a means to get people to read the Koran and the 'valid links' that you are so helpful in providing because you believe that if a "true seeker" reads them he or she will embrace Islam.
In other words, you have no intention of changing your mind - no matter what proof is provided. And you think you might find a seeker or two by "pretending" to engage in an open and objective discussion.
This, as I am sure you can see, is a form of deception. Perhaps it is self-deception. But it is deception nonetheless.
Now, I would not try to prove anything .. to you.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
all you said does not prove Koran has error.
why you think any I reject anything about Koran?
also what is problem reading my links?
do you fear reading them?
I think you are fearing from my links.
human is enemy of what do not know.
yes I say different replies like this link is not valid or this translate is not correct. but I show proof for my reply. i do not only say your interpret of Koran is false. if my reply has not enough proof you can challenge my reply.
anyway you are free to prove or not prove any error in Koran.
but what I see from you is only insisting on your beliefs and prejudice about Koran.
I prefer method of Elam,
he do research and show some questions without prejudice and we continue talking.
you do not show any proof and only repeat your beliefs about Koran.
this method will not lead you in truth.
I only can say you have prejudice about me.
if no one showed me a rigid proof it does not mean I not will to accept any proof.
I accepted some proofs from ted users especially about Evolution.
but Koran is from God and God has absolute knowledge and his book has no error.
this is not my fault no one can disprove Koran. this is power and knowledge of God.
Ed Schulte 50+
I will have to post here as this tread is not functioning on "reply"
Re the "missing line" I agree with you But again this is not my choice of translation but that of local Muslims ...you would have to sak them why
I do agree with you take the line must be included ...here are examples from others who do include....
Nicholson.
My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless;
‘Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved.
Shahriar Shahriari
My place is the no-place
My image is without face
Neither of body nor the soul
I am of the Divine Whole.
Barks
Am not an entity in this world or the next,
Did not descend from Adam and Eve or any
Origin story. My place is placeless, a trace
Of the traceless. Neither body or soul.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
OK
this poem totally says that Rumi is so much Loving God that does not want anything But God.
human is composed of body and soul.
body has only 5 sense.
but soul has many more senses
the senses of soul are potential and not active by default
when some one starts growing spiritually his soul becomes more and more powerful and can optionally exit the body. (optional death). it is something like NDE which you go out of body and can see your body from above and you can go anywhere you want even go out of universe with no limit because soul is not material to have limit of time and place.
whey you are sleep you see dreams and go places while your eye of head is closed.
it is eye of soul (one sense of soul) but at sleep usual people have not free will in sleep. but who their soul is grown they have free will of soul. when they leave their body (at sleep or awake) they can decide where to go or to soul of who speak (even speak with "face of God" وجه الله) with their soul while their body is inactive or active, sleep or awake
such people feel extreme love with God and if they have enough growth and requirements they can meet God when they leave their body. such situation has extreme enjoy (enjoy is perceived with soul, not body. bod is like a sensor and brain is a terminal to send information to soul).
meeting God when leaving body has a very very extreme enjoy that no one can understand it unless himself experiences it. it is like you feel you want to explode from inside and only few humans can stand such extreme enjoy.
when Rumi is in such condition noting has any value and interest for him and says such poem. when a human experiences such enjoy at near of God does not want to trade one moment of such enjoy with all the world and all tings inside it. this is what means Rumi in this poem.
such level of spiritual growth only and only can be reached by fearing God and knowing God:
this is detailed instruction of reaching such level:
http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/193.htm
Ed Schulte 50+
Thanks for this flowing and peaceful response
And this leads now to the opportunity of "understanding" (not the "proving" ) the Essence of what is behind the words ....essence arising out of the contemplative approach.
Re "when Rumi is in such condition noting has any value and interest for him " and the appreciation Iranian Sufi expression "on the convex surface of the eighth sphere" dwells here
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
did you know suf means wool and sufi means who wears wool cloths (the cheapest cloth which usually was symbol of poor people in past). or who have much money but give it to poor people and themselves have no interest in money or welfare.
also prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was wearing wool cloths because there is a law in Islam: the top leader of a society should live at the level of the poorest person of that society. for example a leader of country can eat a food only if all people have enough money to buy it.
actually real sufi is very rare today. and many of who claim are sufi are doing business and are not real sufi.
the leader and head and role model of real sufi is Ali (PBUH) (above link is part of sayings of Ali).
if a sufi does not follow Ali is not a real sufi and only claims that is sufi.
the behavior of a real sufi should not have any conflict with Ali guides.
one day the Arab King of that time said: Ali does not give money to poor people. Ali had a garden and was producing dates and selling it and giving its money to poor people (but at night by covered face to poor people do not know Ali to sense shame. so no one knew who is giving them food)
when Ali heard this saying from that King said to his workers sell dates and collect its monies. for some days they collected the gold coins of selling dates and it became a hill and they covered on it by dates. then Ali invited that King to his garden and said to one of workers walk near that Hill and uncover some of gold coins as unintentional to the King see coins. that worker did what Ali said and the King saw the gold coins and asked: what is this?
Ali said: this is the bounty of my income.
his cloth was simple and the food of Ali himself was bread and salt or bread and water or milk.
one day his daughter took food for Ali: bread and milk and salt and Ali said:
when you have seen I eat a food with two feeding?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
for example some false sayings of today sufis:
1- when soul grow spiritually the eyes of soul open and see some non-material spiritual lumine things (out of material world. something like sleep dream but while being consciousnesses). but Satan some times shows some fake lumine objects to soul and the man things is seeing God or angels of God. some sufi can not distinguish it and consider themselves accepted by God.
2- some sufis say that when you become a sufi you become friend of God and then no need do do Islamic rules like praying or fasting because God does not want such things from his friends and they are for simple Muslims and you can do anything you like (even evil deeds which are sin and disobeying God). but this is false and God rules does not change even for prophets.
Ed Schulte 50+
first person singular, present tense.
Re: this particular poem .....you can share your version if you wish ....Persian language is fine
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Persian:
چه تدبیر ای مسلمانان که من خود را نمیدانم. نه ترسا نه یهودم من نه گبر و نه مسلمانم
نه شرقیم نه غربیم نه بریم نه بحریم نه از ارکان طبیعیم نه از افلاک گردانم
نه از هندم نه از چینم نه ار بلغار و سقسینم نه از ملک عراقینم نه از خاک خراسانم
نه از خاکم نه از آبم نه از بادم نه از آتش نه از عرشم نه از فرشم نه ازکونم نه از کانم
نه از دنیا نه از عقبی نه از جنت نه دوزخ نه از آدم نه از حوا نه از فردوس و رضوانم
هوالاول هوالاخر هوالظاهر هوالباطن که من جز هو و یا من هو کس دیگر نمیدانم
مکانم لا مکان باشد نشانم بی نشان باشد نه تن باشد نه جان باشد که من از جان جانانم
دوئی را چون برون کردم دو عالم را یکی دیدم یکی بینم یکی جویم یکی دانم یکی خوانم
اگر در عمر خود روزی دمی بی تو برآوردم از آن روز و از آن ساعت پشیمانم پشیمانم
زجام عشق سر مستم دو عالم رفته ازدستم به جز رندی و قلاشی نباشد هیچ سامانم
اگر دستم دهد روزی دمی با تو در این خلوت دو عالم زیر پای آرم همی دستی بر افشانم
الا ای شمس تبریزی چنان مستم در این عالم که جزمستی و سرمستی دگر چیزی نمی دانم.
parts about God are removed in your version.
this part which is after "nor paradise or its porter.;" My place is the placeless, " is removed:
هوالاول هوالاخر هوالظاهر هوالباطن که من جز هو و یا من هو کس دیگر نمیدانم
which is about God and means:
he is first, he is last, he is apparent, he is inside that I unless he and O! he I do no know any one else
generally that verse means Rumi is so much drawn in love of God that unless God does not know anything and he has forgotten and forgiven anything about himself like his town or anything and only and only knows God and anything has no value for him unless God. this is the highest level of Loving God that a human can reach and is very hard to reach.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Ed Schulte 50+
other then is one.
"I Am"
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
can you find the complete version or I say it?
sorry what yo mean by "I Am"?
Ed Schulte 50+
But in the spirit of TED's desire to promote "understanding" ( see the TED intro) I would like to here what interpretation will be shared wrt this Rumi poem
What is to be done, O Muslims, for I know myself not,
Neither a Christian am I, nor Jew, nor Magian nor Muslim.
Neither of the East am I nor West, nor of the land, nor sea;
Nor of nature's quarry, nor of heavens circling above.
I am not made of earth or water, not of wind or fire;
Nor am I of the Divine Throne nor of floor carpeting,
Nor of the realm of the cosmos, nor of minerals.
I am not from India, nor China, nor Bulgaria, nor Turkistan;
I am not from the kingdom of the two Iraqs, nor from the earth
of Khorasan.
Neither of this world am I nor the next; nor of heaven nor hell;
Nor from Adam nor Eve nor of Eden, nor paradise or its porter.
My place is the placeless, my mark the markless;
Not either body nor soul for I am myself the Beloved.
Rumi, Diwan-i Shams-i Tabrizi
Translation by Seyyed Hossein Nasr.
Post note: This poem is used by Muslims in my area when they introduce a performance of traveling Dervishes
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
this poem is not complete and some parts of it [I think intentionally] has been cut.
very beautiful poem.
I was shocked by this poem. I have not been seen this before.
advice:
please take care about Dervishes. mostly their beliefs are mix of Islam and non-Islam. they some times abuse poems.
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J Ali
many of my family members have been killed by suicide bombers,,,, if you think they are just attacking non-Muslims then you are wrong....they kill more Muslims then non-Muslims.... I hate them just as much as you.... they are not Islam.
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J Ali
''And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.''
4:93
Doing What Islam asks you to do is not Islam.....Islam is belief and righteous action..and not just action....they do not have the right beliefs and they kill innocent humans... Read about Imam Hussain and Ashura.... the Army who massacred the Progeny of the Prophet on that day did pray and so on....but they were not Muslims..
Thomas Jones 100+
I'll check in again later.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Thomas Jones 100+
Why is it important to you to prove the Koran?
That is a much more interesting discussion than trying to prove something that cannot be proven.
Christians have spent a good deal of time "proving the bible" - and there is still no agreement, by the way. And they have about a 500-year head start on the Koran.
Here's a quote from a typical Christian website: "...Christianity is not a blind faith. It is the only religion that can prove itself, and a main source of that proof is the Bible."
So, how about this: We all accept the Koran might or might not be true (it cannot be (transactionally) "proven" either way - so let's stop "arguing" the point) and you share with us why it is so important to you that the Quran: القرآن be true.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"Why is it important to you to prove the Koran?"
because I Love God and I see many people are disproving God.
"something that cannot be proven."
why you think so? if people do enough research it can be proved.
please do not compare Bible with Koran.
today Bible is written by human. but not Koran.
no agreement is not for proof or disprove. actually accepting Koran or Bible has conflict with worldly enjoys. and it is hard for people to neglect enjoys like wine. so people prefer do not agree.
"a quote from a typical Christian website:"
nearly all religions claim this about themselves. but it is duty of a wise human to research and seek and find which claim is true.
"So, how about this: We all accept the Koran might or might not be true"
this has no value because this is always true for everything.
this is an always true statement.
its important for me because every one has one important idea and wants to spread it.
Thomas Jones 100+
QUOTE: "Why is it important to you to prove the Koran?"
because I Love God and I see many people are disproving God.
So you want to prove the Koran because you love God.
Do you think you have to prove the Koran to prove your love of God?
What if you had been born 2000 years ago (or 10,000) - how would you prove your love of God then?
QUOTE: "please do not compare Bible with Koran. today Bible is written by human. but not Koran."
I am not comparing the Koran with the Bible. I am comparing the commitment Christians have to the Bible to the commitment Muslims have to the Koran.
I think you will find that Christians are just as committed to "proving" their book is the ONLY word of God as Muslims are committed to proving the Koran is THE word of God.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
No. Love is something in heart (not physical heart) and i have no need to prove my love to you.
"What if you had been born 2000 years ago (or 10,000) - how would you prove your love of God then?"
I am not proving my Love. I am spreading my ideas
"I am not comparing the Koran with the Bible. I am comparing the commitment Christians have to the Bible to the commitment Muslims have to the Koran."
not any commitment is real commitment. also some Indians have commitment to cows and believe they are Gods. I mean do not Judge about Koran based on your images in your mind. please Judge about Koran independent with your think and knowledge.
"Christians are just as committed to "proving" their book "
proving which Bible? they themselves know there is different versions of bible and its not clear which is truth and they know many false information is mixed into bible.
but there is only one version of Koran text and there is no doubt this Koran is exactly what prophet of God said.
all near 2 Billion Muslim only have one version of Koran text even different cults.
I know church made people escape from religion. but this is irrelevant to Koran.
Thomas Jones 100+
No. Love is something in heart (not physical heart) and i have no need to prove my love to you."
Hi S.R. Ahmadi,
I asked you why it is important that to prove the Koran and you said because "I love God ..."
And now you are saying you have no need to prove your love. (I never implied you had to prove your love to me or to anyone else ... you did.)
QUOTE: "I am not proving my Love. I am spreading my ideas"
I would disagree with you there. You are not spreading your ideas. You are spreading someone else's ideas that you believe strongly.
QUOTE: "...not any commitment is real commitment. "
So you are saying your commitment is real and the Christians' commitment is not?
Some Christians would say the same thing about you.
Who do you think is right?
Could you both be right?
Could you both be wrong?
QUOTE: "I mean do not Judge about Koran based on your images in your mind."
I am not judging the Koran at all. I am engaging in a discussion with you.
QUOTE: " ...please Judge about Koran independent with your think and knowledge."
Would you like me to judge the Koran based on what you think and on your knowledge?
QUOTE: "... there is only one version of Koran text and there is no doubt this Koran is exactly what prophet of God said."
That there is only one is not confirmation of its fidelity or veracity.
You believe the Koran was spoken by Allah, heard by The Prophet Mohammad, and written down by the Sabahas and that, for these reasons, it is undeniably true.
Am I correct?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
agree. my ideas are influenced from Koran. but also mixing my own study and knowledge with Koran I also found new Ideas. for example by studying atomic physics of Evolution then reading Koran I found new Ideas. but basically I agree you my ideas are based on Koran.
"So you are saying your commitment is real and the Christians' commitment is not?"
if we consider original versions of religions (at time of prophet) both my commitments and Christians commitments are real and true. but today false information has mixed to true religions (for example God is a human or trinity or some false beliefs in Islam)
but totally today Islam is much more original and real and truth compared with Christianity.
also even if we have access to 100% original Christianity religion today God does not accept believing it because God sent the more updated religion for humans.
"Some Christians would say the same thing about you."
yea all religions say this about other religions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions
"Who do you think is right?"
my reply this question is not valid. its like a seller say my product is best product. its duty of each individual human to seek reply of this question for himself. because IF hell exist (no one could prove it not exist) no one can help you escape from Hell. so it is duty of each individual human. I did my research and I am open to new information and this is one reason I am at TED. I want to check if there is any new belief can overcome my current beliefs or not (with enough proof. not claims from biased people).
also I am ready to share my researches and help people in saving time in research. I can reply some FAQ that usually people counter in seeking God and true religions. and people are free to accept and discuss my replies or not.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes its possible.
there is only one truth. 2+2 can not be both 4 and 5
both can be right if beliefs have no conflict.
"Could you both be wrong?"
yes its possible.
but in real world I think some of my beliefs maybe false. not all. also about christians. not all of their beliefs are wrong. Indeed some common beliefs exist.
also I believe finding truth is not impossible.
seeker is finder.
"I am not judging the Koran at all. I am engaging in a discussion with you."
I happy to see a human discussing without prejudice about Islam and Koran.
usually western people think all Muslims are something like Bin Ladan.
"That there is only one is not confirmation of its fidelity or veracity."
yes and I did not said so. but this is part of proving fidelity and veracity of Koran.
there is no doubt in Koran for a real SEEKER.
"You believe the Koran was spoken by Allah, heard by The Prophet Mohammad, and written down by the Sabahas and that, for these reasons, it is undeniably true."
actually proving validity of Koran being exactly from God is not so short and simple.
every doubt has studies and discussed very deep among Muslim scientists and historians and researchers and family tree specialists and has very tough methods. I can not say them in 2000 char. but if you interested I can refer you to some references. although most best references are not available in English. but still some good references can be found in English.
Thomas Jones 100+
Christians would disagree with you there - again, a typical quote from a Christian website: "The Bible is God's inspired, inerrant Word representing Absolute Truth and our final authority in all matters..." - That is present tense; present day. And unequivocal.
Muslims say that the Koran came later and supersedes the Bible. Christians say the Bible came first and the Koran is irrelevant (at best.)
QUOTE: "...there is no doubt in Koran for a real SEEKER."
No doubt.
If what one is seeking is to be found in the Koran, then a seeker of such knowledge will, no doubt, be satisfied.
But what if what a PARTICULAR SEEKER is seeking is not to be found in the Koran? Or in any other book? Then what? Then the Koran. And every other book will fill the seeker with doubt.
This is a challenging question for "True Believers." The True Believers I know have a sense that because they have found what they are seeking, in, say, the Bible, that all other true seekers will also find what they are looking for in the same place.
The flaw, as I am sure you can see, is the assumption that all seekers are seeking the same thing.
QUOTE: "actually proving validity of Koran being exactly from God is not so short and simple."
And yet you are attempting to do so on a website "filled with" humanists, secularists, skeptics, and various and sundry other non-believers.
You are brave. Or foolish. Maybe a little of both? ;-)
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
actually believers are a wide range of believers. they all are not the same.
most of them know false information is mixed in bible during history. while also some like believers you say exist today. but I have a simple question from them: which version of bible do you think is truth? how you ensure your version of bible is true?
also if such Christians exist so what?
"Muslims say that the Koran came later and supersedes the Bible."
Muslims do not say this. this is false. Muslims believe bible and Jesus (PBUH) and also Torah and Moses (PBUH) there is many sayings of those prophets in islam and Muslims respect and follow them.
what Muslims say is this:
God sent a more complete book for humans according changes to human life context and deviations in old scriptures and a real believer should accept all messengers of God the same.
"Christians say the Bible came first and the Koran is irrelevant (at best.)"
OK. I am not professional in Christianity religion. better to not say anything.
"If what one is seeking is to be found in the Koran"
I do not meed a seeker seek inside Koran. a seeker first seeks the proofs and evidences about validity of Koran then if convinced starts reading Koran.
"But what if what a PARTICULAR SEEKER is seeking is not to be found in the Koran. Or in any other book? Then what? Then the Koran. And every other book will fill the seeker with doubt."
Koran is not alone. Koran has a heavy thing with itself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_the_two_weighty_things
please read my reply to Eduard here:
http://live12.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html?c=266738
the "people of message" never say "I do not know" if you ask any kind of question. you can ask them.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
how you define "true believer" believe in what? if some one believes in God and believes God set some prophets then accepts all prophets the same. prophets are like postmans.
there is a Persian poem:
musk is what itself smells. not what seller says.
true believer is not who says I am true believer. you have enough wisdom to find who is true believer.
does a true believer accept one messenger of same message sender and reject other messenger?
"The flaw, as I am sure you can see, is the assumption that all seekers are seeking the same thing."
agree.
"And yet you are attempting to do so on a website "filled with" with humanists, secularists, skeptics, and various and sundry other non-believers."
please do not prejudice. you are wise enough to distinguish wrong and true claims.
first hear then judge.
http://tanzil.net/#39:18
if I ask you prove me Evolution probably you say me same reply and ask me read some references. because it is not possible in a short comment.
"You are brave. Or foolish. Maybe a little of both? ;-) "
better you decide it.
Thomas Jones 100+
Excellent attitude.
Although, I'm not sure if you'll have much luck finding unbiased people.
I like playing thought experiments. Here is one that relates to a question I asked you earlier:
Imagine you were born, say, 7000 years ago. How would you find your true heart's desire then?
There would be no Koran. No Bible. No books. Just you - and your heart - and your longing.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
this is my rule:
I hear all voices and select best.
if at 7000 years ago some one told me there is a Hell after death I asked him explain and show me some proof.
if no one said me such thing I did not notice this and did my regular life.
as this is an unreal condition this is hard to reply. but please note heart has two aspect: one part of heart ask you do good deeds and one part ask you do evil deeds. (not religious deeds) for example what you heart says about steal at 7000 years ago? (there is no police no law no religion no book,...)
lets do not Imagine unreal problems while our real problems are not solved.
the real problem is this:
1- we are human
2- we have wisdom
3- we have free will to accept God/Hell/Koran/after death or not accept
4- some things called prophets (at least Koran) exist today (as a message and warning before death about after death) that can not be neglected
now what we should do?
God does not punish without enough warning and proof and evidence left in earth accessible for human and enough time for finding and understanding then (a whole life). unless God is cruel to send human in Hell.
but people wast their life with plays and games.
Thomas Jones 100+
You are missing the point (perhaps intentionally?) - the point is not whether the Bible (or the Koran) is true or not - the point is the quality of the belief that their adherents share.
I believe in ___________. [Fill in the blank.]
You seem to think that what you put in the blank has an impact on the operative phrase: "I believe in."
It doesn't. Unless you are looking from outside of the belief system.
So you look at a Christian who says I believe in the Bible - and you ask, "Which one? [And I am not saying it is not a valid question.] But from the point of view of the Christian, it is meaningless.
So, now, you say, "I believe in the Koran," and some people might ask, "How can you believe in such nonsense - it is the work of Satan?"
And to you the question is meaningless (and probably offensive.)
I am talking about "belief." Not the Koran or the Bible.
QUOTE: "Muslims say that the Koran came later and supersedes the Bible."
Muslims do not say this. this is false.
Yes you do - and no it is not. If you were to read one thing in the Bible and a contradictory thing in the Koran, which one would you do?
But, again, that is not the point.
QUOTE: "...please do not prejudice."
I'm not, this is how many on the site describe themselves. It is not a judgment. It is an observation.
QUOTE: "You are brave. Or foolish. Maybe a little of both? ;-) ... better you decide it."
Some things people should decide for themselves. ;-)
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
And to you the question is meaningless (and probably offensive.)"
no this is a normal question in Islam and always discussed and is open to be asked.
there is no banned question in Islam.
you can ask any question.
also about this question please read my comments here:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/815/the_end_of_the_world.html
and please ask any question.
its not offensive at all. I become happy to some one ask this me.
there is a Persian poem:
who has clear account why should fear being asked?
"I am talking about "belief." Not the Koran or the Bible."
OK. ask anything.
"which one would you do?"
according to my past research I accept Koran. (please note this is not blindly but has years of research in background)
"It is not a judgment. It is an observation."
agree but this is not 100%.
there is a Persian poem.
who is bitten by snake fears from every black and white rope.
"Some things people should decide for themselves. ;-) "
so I ask the same question from you.
my reply is:
my evils are more than my goods.
Thomas Jones 100+
this is my rule:
I hear all voices and select best.
if at 7000 years ago some one told me there is a Hell after death I asked him explain and show me some proof.
if no one said me such thing I did not notice this and did my regular life.
as this is an unreal condition this is hard to reply. but please note heart has two aspect: one part of heart ask you do good deeds and one part ask you do evil deeds. (not religious deeds) for example what you heart says about steal at 7000 years ago? (there is no police no law no religion no book,...)"
You are violating the law of my thought experiment. You are carrying with you the understanding you have now and assuming you would be able to know it "then." This is a wrong assumption.
You are just answering the question if I lived then and know what I know now, this is what I would do (more or less.)
To quote Hu Jintao: "Emancipate your mind."
Just imagine you live 7000 years ago. You know nothing of heaven or hell or God or Satan.
How would you fulfill your heart's desire?
(And just pretend that these ideas about a "good heart" and an "evil heart" are not true.)
-------------------------
QUOTE: "lets do not Imagine unreal problems ..."
The assumption is what follows are "real problems."
Can you see they are only "real" if you believe in them. And even then, not everyone does. And that you believe them does not make them a universal problem.
1- we are human
2- we have wisdom
3- we have free will to accept God/Hell/Koran/after death or not accept
4- some things called prophets (at least Koran) exist today (as a message and warning before death about after death) that can not be neglected
now what we should do?
Many Christians say if you believe in the Koran and do not believe in Jesus (exclusively,) you are going to go to hell.
Now what should we do?
And they said it first.
Now what should we do?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
please read my reply again. my reply was:
1- if some one warned me I heard him
2- if no warn I did my regular life
this is not based on what I know today
I said: IF X IF Y
also this is really hard to reply. as our mind has shaped and any reply is influenced with our current knowledge.
"You are just answering the question if I lived then and know what I know now, this is what I would do (more or less.)"
I not said if I new what I now know. I said if some thing like a prophet warned me.
Just imagine you live 7000 years ago. You know nothing of heaven or hell or God or Satan."
in this case I has no belief about after death. and perhaps I was influenced by superstition of people and perhaps I was praying a deity. fossils and findings show human always had beliefs in after death life even million years ago.
I think absolutely non-believer human not exist. even believing in Big Bang (with nearly no knowledge about it and its past) as a kind of creator is kind pf belief system.
according your scenario my reply is:
two possibility: I was a believer (praying a statue) or non believer (but believing in material is all is made world) and it depends on the culture I grew up in it.
"Can you see they are only "real" if you believe in them."
no. by real I mean conditions and facts exist in our current time and our life.
I can not believe in Koran but real is that Koran exist is and is available. I can not reject existence of Koran and its wonders.
I can not reject this fact that science has no answer to this:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
this is real. real is not what we believe.
if I believe you are not human you are not really human?
"And that you believe them does not make them a universal problem."
agree. they are problem for my belief.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I can not decide for you what to do.
each human himself has enough wisdom to decide.
If i want to reply. i say:
I hear both well and then decide according to my wisdom.
I believe both.
I consider possibility that bible is truth but church is doing business and doing marketing to keep its customers paying tax for buying expensive cloths and so on.
I did check and research bible to find if bible really said what church claims or not.
"Many Christians say if you believe in the Koran and do not believe in Jesus (exclusively,) you are going to go to hell."
I agree this.
I believe both Koran and Jesus (PBUH) and I do not disbelieve Jesus (PBUH).
please watch this:
http://www.watchislam.com/videos/video.php?vid=3-Yusuf
some things church says is not even said one time in Bible.
for example trinity.
can you find word trinity in Bible?
Thomas Jones 100+
Here's my impression (not that you asked for it but it is an open forum:)
1) You have no real interest in "proving the Koran" you already believe that it is true and has been proven.
2) You have no real interest in considering that your faith is, in any way, misguided.
3) You believe that people who do not accept your point of view are wrong.
4) You believe you can "change people's minds" (if they would only open their eyes and hearts) - or maybe, more accurately, you secretly believe you might find a true seeker and guide them to the truth.
5) You believe you are honouring God by asserting your faith.
6) You believe in heaven and hell and that Islam is the "path" to the former and the path away from the latter.
Is that a, more or less, accurate impression of the situation?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
your discuss is different but most discuss here is about proving Koran. my main interest is proving Koran because I believe the most valid word of God TODAY is Koran.
2) I consider but if I see enough proof and evidence. I have not seen yet. as I said before one reason of me being on ted is to find if some one can prove I am misguided.
3) perhaps my points of view have problems but I believe people who not accept Koran are wrong. but they are two type: some are interested to know Koran (seekers) some not interested.
4) I do not believe this. because I think I have not such ability and until today I could not do this and this is not my goal. I only want to spread what i know and I do not care if people change or not. I believe I can spread some true information about Koran and God. while I have errors.
5) yes but by spreading Koran and clearing wrong information about Koran. not by asserting my faith.
6) yes.
again i say I am open to questions and challenges about my beliefs.
Thomas Jones 100+
Forgive me for being so blunt but I do not believe you. You say you are open to a discussion that might "disprove" the Koran and, yet, you counter every rational argument with an assertion that is belief-based.
Try to understand that you are asserting you believe in book that was dictated to an illiterate man by Allah Himself.
Unless you are willing to abandon your beliefs [and you're not], no one will be able to "prove" the Koran is anything you do not believe it to be. (Do you get that?)
My advice: Give up the facade of objectivity and openly express your belief.
QUOTE: "...one reason of me being on ted is to find if some one can prove I am misguided."
I can not speak for the founders of TED but I suggest it is not the mandate of TED, or the responsibility of people who frequent TED, to prove you are misguided. (And, even if some us "volunteered" to take a shot - it is evident you have no desire to change.)
QUOTE: "...I believe people who not accept Koran are wrong. but they are two type: some are interested to know Koran (seekers) some not interested."
So basically you're fishing for converts? How is that working out?
QUOTE: "...I can spread some true information about Koran and God."
Again, how is that working out for you?
QUOTE: "...[You believe you are honouring God by asserting your faith.] yes but by spreading Koran and clearing wrong information about Koran. not by asserting my faith.
"Asserting you faith" is an idiom, it means asserting your faith in __________.... [in this case, the Koran] So by sharing your belief in, and understanding of, the Koran, you are honouring Allah.
Here's my advice: Be open and direct.
Also I recommend you refrain from telling people they are flies that leave the flowers to sit on smelly things. I doubt you will get the reaction you are looking for.
QUOTE: "again i say I am open to questions and challenges about my beliefs."
Again, I do not believe you.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
this topic and other topics like
http://www.ted.com/conversations/2328/is_koran_scientifically_a_mira.html
are full of this.
but please not can you show me a certain proof in them disproving Koran?
if I not accept is not for my dogma it is that they are not really proof. they are only false claims that when arguing and discuss people escape. they only leave tons of comments and some discuss and then escape. you call this proof?
people start copying a log list or errors of Koran blindly from links that themselves do not know what are they saying. you mean I should accept them all? when they can not show enough proof.
"Try to understand that you are asserting you believe in book that was dictated to an illiterate man by Allah Himself."
agree. what is problem?
"(Do you get that?)" no. I did not understand that sentence. (language)
"My advise: Give up the facade of objectivity and openly express your belief."
I an clear. but when talking with who does not believe in Koran I temporarily should assume Koran is not false. this is required in talk. unless they say I do not know scientific method.
hypothesis>test>answer
"it is evident you have no desire to change.)"
already ted changed me. especially about evolution.
"So basically you're fishing for converts? How is that working out?"
I said before I am not convertor and I have no converted any one. I do not care if people convert or not. also God does not care:
http://tanzil.net/#76:3
http://tanzil.net/#2:256
I said many times I only want to spread and talk Koran.
I do not think ted is suitable place for fishing. better places exist. it is wasting time fishing on ted.
also another question (I am not convertor):
what is problem of converting? why you fear converting? do you fear also converting to atheism same?
"Again, how is that working out for you?"
I not seeking convert. today is age of information. people are not donkey.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
please note my faith in x is different of x
I consider my personal errors in Koran and so I prefer to assert Koran itself instead of my faith in Koran.
"Here's my advice: Be open and direct."
this is direct: I want to spread Koran and explain people their wrong thinks about Koran and God and I do not care who changed and who not change. but if some one ask me questions I feel responsibility to answer him.
also other people on ted advices me I respect the scientific method and first I consider my claims as hypothesis and then try to check them without having any belief.
I do not know which advice I should follow in ted. I am confused. in any way I am accused.
"people they are flies that leave the flowers to sit on smelly things. "
sorry I said this about special people not all. because they leave whole the Koran and only insist in some evil behaviors of Muslims or insist on some APPARENTLY errors of Koran without reading even one page of Koran. what you call them? at first look they seem professionals in Koran but soon it is found they only copy blindly from anti-Koran links with no think.
"Again, I do not believe you. "
I do not want to you believe me. if you do so you are not human. only believe yourself wisdom.
but I ask you do not escape and hear me and then yourself think.
http://tanzil.net/#74:49
Comment deleted
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
instead of assertion your beliefs about me. please show me one RATIONAL argument I have countered.
I have both accepted and countered arguments here.
can you show some examples that are really rational?
"TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE ASSERTING YOU BELIEVE IN BOOK THAT WAS DICTATED TO AN ILLITERATE MAN BY ALLAH HIMSELF."
already understand and agree. do you think I am wrong? OK why you not prove?
I do not understand last paragraph.
Thomas Jones 100+
There is no problem - for you.
But - think about this - you initiate a discussion "to prove" (or disprove) something that is predicated on an assertion that many of your audience categorically rejects.
That is, on a forum where (I suspect) the majority of the people you are addressing do not believe in Allah, you assert the Koran is true because it was dictated by Allah. And then you ask them to "disprove your assertion."
This has nothing to do with whether your beliefs are true or not but, surely you can see that asking a group of people who do not believe in Allah to prove to you that the Koran is not true is futile.
No matter what they say, you will not believe them.
Do you see that?
QUOTE: "it is evident you have no desire to change.)"
already ted changed me. especially about evolution.
Let me clarify: It is evident you have no desire to change your beliefs regarding Islam and the Koran.
QUOTE: "I said before I am not convertor and I have no converted any one. I do not care if people convert or not."
So you are not interested in the people who "are interested to know Koran (seekers)?"
QUOTE: "I said many times I only want to spread and talk Koran."
My impression is you do not want to talk about the Koran - you want people to agree with your views about the Koran. (That's my impression.)
QUOTE: what is problem of converting? why you fear converting? do you fear also converting to atheism same?
What do you think?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
not important. why I should talk so that people like it? I hate such behavior.
I am clear and I do not care people hate or love me.
I do not need any fan.
I am not interested where people are not interested to hear me. I am considering leaving TED.
"asking a group of people who do not believe in Allah to prove to you that the Koran is not true is futile."
agree. and I did not ask them. any one is free to select a topic and participate it.
please do not decide about others.
if I know it is futile I do not waste time and leave ted.
"No matter what they say, you will not believe them."
again and again please do not prejudice me. I learned and believed many things from people on ted.
"Let me clarify: It is evident you have no desire to change your beliefs regarding Islam and the Koran."
if some one show enough proof I change.
why you not consider that Koran is truth?
you have a assumption and you assert it: I should accept people without notice to what I say. you have a assume that I am wrong and you accuse me why I not accept people and you assume I am irrational. please consider the possibility that Koran is true and people are wrong. why you think always the majority is true?
did you know near 50 years ago a huge number of scientists said cigar is good for health?
please if not disprove of Koran happens it not mean I have dogma. if you proved and I did not accept it is dogma. but you did not prove anything still. you are only asserting your beliefs with no logical argument. you think you are right before argument.
"So you are not interested in the people who "are interested to know Koran (seekers)?""
If some one is interested I reply and talk him. but I do not care who change or not.
"My impression is you do not want to talk about the Koran - you want people to agree with your views about the Koran. (That's my impression.)"
Indeed I have errors. better to people not follow me. and directly use source (Koran)
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
i think media like TV by bin ladan and so on has made a very dark Image of Islam in your mind and you fear nearing Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia
Thomas Jones 100+
I do not believe you have countered a single rational argument (although I have not read the whole thread)
Can you provide an example?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I do not understand what you mean.
I feel contradictions in your sayings.
example for what?
you said:
"YOU COUNTER EVERY RATIONAL ARGUMENT WITH AN ASSERTION THAT IS BELIEF-BASED."
and I asked you show one example of those every.
sorry English is not my language and some times I not understand you.
perhaps I am wrong
Thomas Jones 100+
You have heard the expressions: "Actions speak louder than word" and "Know thyself."
Well your actions would indicate that you do care if people are changed or not. Perhaps you want them to experience the joy you feel at having found something you believe in. Perhaps you want to wipe away some misconceptions people have about the Koran and allow them to see it the way you see and experience it. Fine. Share your experience. That belongs to you.
People can see that and appreciate it ... even if they never accept the Koran (and face it, most will not.)
QUOTE: "...other people on ted advices me I respect the scientific method and first I consider my claims as hypothesis and then try to check them without having any belief."
It's not bad advice. You seem to be challenging people to "prove" the Koran is not true. But it is you who is asserting that it is true, not them. Can you prove (within the scientific meaning of the term) that Allah dictated the Koran to Mohammad? Of course, you cannot.
QUOTE: I do not know which advice I should follow in ted. I am confused. in any way I am accused.
I suspect you are "accused" because you have issued a contrived challenge and then assume the rules of the challenge apply to us but not to you. You cannot "prove" the Koran is true. You cannot prove Allah exists. And then you challenge us to prove it is not true and that he doesn't exist.
It is not a challenge we even invited (I don't think) - and yet you "accuse" us of not "disproving" your assertions. It's as if you see our inability to disprove your assertions as somehow validating them.
They cannot be proven. They cannot be disproven.
Many of us simply see them as nonsense.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes. prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has such saying:
"Invite people without your tongue"
"Well your actions would indicate that you do care if people are changed or not."
OK agree.
"Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps"
yes Perhaps.
Perhaps you seek some one to fill your time instead of going cinema.
"Can you prove (within the scientific meaning of the term) that Allah dictated the Koran to Mohammad? Of course, you cannot."
yes I can if you be patient and interested enough.
how much you are ready to pay for this? (not money, time)
"You cannot "prove" the Koran is true."
Koran has thousands of wonders. ask some of them from an Arab friend.
also if no one can prove an error in Koran this is part of prove.
my prove (on of them) is simple:
Koran is from 1400 years ago and if was from human should have many errors today.
"You cannot prove Allah exists. "
I can. for example look this:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
this is not all
"And then you challenge us to prove it is not and that he doesn't."
when I wanted this? I am talking about Koran.
if Koran has no error from 1400 years ago this has not any meaning?
also this is a challenge for who disbelieve existence of God.
"It's as if you see our inability to disprove your assertions as somehow validating them."
yes. I respect beliefs of people and I not want people feel embarrassment against their friends. I want to disprove them respectfully and peacefully.
"They cannot be proven. They cannot be disproven."
They can be proven. They cannot be disproven.
but each people comes and throw me some doubts and false information from links and then escape. they even do not read my replies and links.
"Many of us simply see them as nonsense. "
I hope one day "Many of us" feel risk of Hell after death and then not see them nonsense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
J Ali
Islamic Philosophy has proven this with proofs that the Atheists of the West are too scared to come near to....I mean, Why are Avicenna's books not studied in Western universities? Why do Atheists like Richard Dawkins never even mention the proofs of Islamic philosophy?...please refute our proofs before you say a word..please stand against Avicenna..Please stand against Mulla Sadra....Allah is God...God exists.. You are wasting your life and what is coming after it if you don't believe in God... And maybe that is why SR is inviting you- Maybe not in the best way-to Islam....because inviting to the infinitely good is not to be questioned.. Questioning it does not make sense..Islam is the submission to Allah, God...the one who created you from nothing...the one who blessed you with everything you have..The one to whom we belong and the one to whom we will all return....SR invites you to him....to eternal happiness....to the true life...
''What is the life of this world but amusement and play? but verily the Home in the Hereafter,- that is life indeed, if they but knew.''
29:64
''And He giveth you of all ye ask of Him, and if ye would count the bounty of Allah ye cannot reckon it. Lo! man is verily a wrong-doer, an ingrate.''
14:34.
Maybe it is SR's English, maybe it is the complete misunderstanding between all of us...maybe it is some people lying, maybe it is that we are all not open-minded...Maybe it is that this conversation was wrong in the first place..here at this place..Maybe things like this shouldn't be argued in this way on the internet....Maybe it is that some of us are completely blind...Maybe some of us just have to wait and see..
''O mankind ! what has beguiled you from your Lord, the Gracious one,''
82:6
''And when We bestow favor on man, he turns aside and behaves proudly, and when evil afflicts him, he is despairing.''
17:83
''That to thy Lord is the final Goal''
53:42
Peace..
Thomas Jones 100+
"sorry English is not my language and some times I not understand you.
perhaps I am wrong"
You're doing a pretty good job considering English is not your mother-tongue. I think I have answered your question in subsequent posts but basically what it means is: It is rational to assert you cannot prove that the Koran or the Bible or the Upanishads are true. But we could prove they are not true (for example if they contained errors or false information.)
That is "rational."
Now, to use the Bible, as an example, many people have found lots of errors in it and many other people (we call them Christians) reject the rational findings and assert the Bible is inerrant - without error.
This is a belief-based rejection of a rational argument.
The same could be said for the Koran. Scholars might find errors in the Koran but "true believers" simply assert that any errors are errors of perception or interpretation (which is the same thing the Christians say.)
True Muslims see the perfection in the Koran. Infidels do not.
So if someone sees an error, they must not be a true Muslim.
This is a belief-based response.
It is quite convincing in many respects but - outside of the faith - it is not considered very robust.
[I am simplifying in the hope you will understand my English.]
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
this is what you said and I do not what you mean by every... . please forgive me.
"It is rational to assert you cannot prove that the Koran or the Bible or the Upanishads are true. But we could prove they are not true (for example if they contained errors or false information.)"
it is not rational. because you do not know our proofs for Koran.
rational is to do not say some thing certain when you do not know.
today bible has errors but not Koran.
when you could prove one error in Koran then it is rational.
about Bible I agree you. but not Koran.
"The same could be said for the Koran."
why?! if i see a stupid Canadian then I can conclude all Canadians are stupid?
you do not know Koran.
this is false logic.
""true believers" simply assert that any errors are errors of perception or interpretation"
so what is the solution?
this means Koran is not truth?
you have enough wisdom to first hear their reply then conclude.
this logic is called dogma. (conclude before hearing)
"True Muslims see the perfection in the Koran. Infidels do not."
this is false.
do you know what is definition of Infidels in islam?
do you think any non-muslim is Infidels?
did you know some muslims are Infidels?
"So if someone sees an error, they must not be a true Muslim."
he is not blind follower of his father. seeing error is sign of think and research.
"This is a belief-based response."
yes. but I do not want to give you such response. this is your belief that I give such response.
any error can be discussed and proved or disproved.
"It is quite convincing in many respects but - outside of the faith - it is not considered very robust."
agree. Koran says:
http://tanzil.net/#53:23
a Muslim should not follow father blindly.
I understand your English. only few cases I not understand that I say you.
Thomas Jones 100+
Can you prove (within the scientific meaning of the term) that Allah dictated the Koran to Mohammad?
"yes I can..."
No, you cannot. You believe you can.
"how much you are ready to pay for this? (not money, time)"
It's a good question but I have little to no interest in you "proving" something you believe to be true. Its enough that you believe it. I do not need proof. My interest in this conversation is to engage with another human.
"You cannot "prove" the Koran is true."
Koran has thousands of wonders. ask some of them from an Arab friend.
also if no one can prove an error in Koran this is part of prove.
my prove (on of them) is simple:
Koran is from 1400 years ago and if was from human should have many errors today.
It does have many errors. Many have been pointed out to you. You counter there are no errors in the Arabic version. (Which is nonsense.)
A belief-based response.
"You cannot prove Allah exists. "
I can.
YOU can prove Allah exists!? My you must be truly great.
Or did you mean you could direct me to something that you believe proves Allah exists?
"They cannot be proven. They cannot be disproven."
They can be proven. They cannot be disproven.
This is a belief-based response.
I hope one day "Many of us" feel risk of Hell after death and then not see them nonsense.
Now is this your true charcater showing through? We must believe what you believe or we will go to hell?
And is that how you "want to disprove them [us] respectfully and peacefully." Threaten them [us] with hell?
Sadly, you are a bit late. The Christians got that one first - so according to them and their God - it is you who will be going to hell. For all of eternity. No coffee breaks.
Oh, and their book is older than yours and it's inerrant.
That too is a belief-based response.
(One I do not believe, by the way.)
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
These are belief-based responses. because you still have not heard my response.
"I have little to no interest in you "proving" something you believe to be true. Its enough that you believe it. I do not need proof. My interest in this conversation is to engage with another human."
proving without using my beliefs needs a serious man with interest and time. God and religion and truth are not cheap to be a hobby. thanks for your honesty.
I prefer to spend my time with serous people. it needs deep engaging in history and historical evidences and proofs and is not possible in short time.
if one day you decided you need a proof I am ready ( if I was alive and God wanted)
"It does have many errors. Many have been pointed out to you."
yes. but none had enough proof. internet is full of such apparently errors and they only copy while have not read Koran.
"This is a belief-based response."
I asked you ask an arab friend (not Muslim friend) to explain you wonders of Koran in literature and poem and musical and so on. no arab poet could challenge Koran in history. this is belief-based response?!!!
"Now is this your true charcater showing through? We must believe what you believe or we will go to hell?"
not you a wise human considers this risk independent of religion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
"Threaten them [us] with hell?"
when I said this? please do not misquote me. I have not such power.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
OK. so wait and see true result after death.
I heard a story: (I do not know true or false)
church was selling Heaven lands to people.
one day some came to church and asked:
how much is price of Hell?
church: what? it has no customer you are crazy to buy it. it is free.
the man signed the contract of Hell and bought it and said people:
do not worry no need to buy Heaven because Hell is mine and I do not let any one enter it so you all will go to Heaven.
"Oh, and their book is older than yours and it's inerrant.
That too is a belief-based response.
(One I do not believe, by the way.)"
none of them prove God and Hell and Heaven not exist.
perhaps all we (Muslims) and Christians are lying but still this not mean Hell not exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
this is a rational and logical argument like Insurance.
Thomas Jones 100+
Quoting scripture does not "prove" Allah exists. I have read that apples exist. But if I have not eaten one they are just a possibility - a dream to me.
Do not quote scripture to me unless you know of what it speaks and could write the scripture in the sands with the tears of your own heart.
Peace.
J Ali
Please show me where I said that they prove Allah? I talked about proof of Allah's existence in the first paragraph.... You and all the Atheists of the west will never read and study the philosophy of Islam...the books of our philosophers...the books of Avicenna, Ibn Rushd, Mulla Sadr and so forth...God is not like an apple...you must be dead serious about God..which means you read everything great great philosophers have said....Maybe you are just not interested..
''Do not quote scripture to me unless you know of what it speaks''
I quoted the verses to tell you what I was feeling... I did not say to you that it proves itself..just what I was feeling..If you want proof that God, Allah, exists then read the books of our philosophers and scholars (especially since you love to read)..If you want proof the Koran is from God, then this is not the right place... I feel that all of you are ignorant of what our scholars say...of what the Quran says...of what Islam says.... And maybe you have a right.... Maybe Bin Laden and his group destroyed our image..Maybe we didn't stand roughly in Bin Laden's face as the Quran and the Prophet orders us to....maybe the focus is on them and not on the Golden Age of Islamic science and philosophy.. and not on the knowledge we have... That is why I feel sad.. We are too misunderstood....
Peace...
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S.R. Ahmadi 20+
he created human to God be known. but Judgement is necessary because God is Just and anyone doing any good or evil should see the result. this is a law of God:
http://tanzil.net/#99:7
why you think God created people just to Judge them?!
animals do not have Judgement because they have not Wisdom and free will.
Heaven and Hell is because of wisdom.
but health is not value for God. for God obeying God and knowing God is value.
God compensate health problems with rewards at judgement day.
"so on the judgment day he will leave you alone"
why leave alone?
"you didnt answer any of my guestions"
what are exactly your questions? I think I have replied all your questions.
", you are just paraphrasing koran "
we do not let ourselves to interpret Koran as our personal opinions. we interpret according to sayings of prophet and Fourteen Infallible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
"You even dont understand my guestions"
sorry please ask questions clear to get answers.
just hidding behind one old book. "
we use our knowledge and wisdom and science first to test Koran then we accepted it. not blindly following Koran.
"When you dont have some real answer "
I do not understand what question you mean.
"you just say, god say so "
sorry. this is your false think. there is tons of proofs before sayings this.
"And the only think you are doing is proving koran with koran"
sorry if you see the title of this topic this is not what you say. this is proving Koran with not finding any contradiction or error in it. and not conflict with science. you could not prove any error in Koran and then misquote me (proving Koran with Koran). this is your think. but we do not prove Koran with Koran. first prove one error in Koran then say this.
"I wish you great imaginary life my human fellow."
life with no God and creator is Imaginary.
what is your reply to this:?
http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
Imaginary reply!
Ward Miller
I am reminded of a chat I had with a Sudanese friend in Khartoum a few years back. We were talking about his Ramadan fast during which he could not eat until after sundown. I made what I thought was a good-natured observation and asked what a Muslim would do at the one of the Earth's poles should Ramadan fall during a time when the sun would not rise or set. My friend was not the most educated man and was not aware of this phenomenon. He got very angry and concluded that either I was wrong, was lying, or that the world was not round after all, anything to preserve the literal truth of his faith. It was an awkward moment.
I would also like to respond to a few postings saying that we English speakers have no business responding to Mr. Ahmadi because we cannot read the Koran in Arabic. Since Mr. Ahmadi chose to post in English to a predominantly English-speaking audience, he must have expected to be able to make a compelling case and defend it in English. Claiming that we have no standing to argue is an inane point.
It is clear, however, that a language barrier (among other things) is interfering with the progress of the discussion. Mr. Ahmadi and Mr. Dawson seem to be speaking past each other without being able to agree on what the cited texts say. It would be helpful if Mr. Ahmadi would provide English translations that he accepts as accurate.
Thanks for listening.
J Ali
Hi Ward,
If indeed this story is true....then I also agree with you that it is truly awkward... your observation is very good-natured and it has been studied by the scholars of Islam...they are not scared of it...maybe it was just your friend's ignorance...Islam does not support ignorance at all.....
The answer to your question is answered by Islamic jurisprudence which says that if he is in a place where the sun does not rise or set for a very very long time, e.g. the north pole... then when Ramadan begins, fasting becomes obligatory on him, but since he is in a place where he cannot fast...he must leave to another place where he can...either in Ramadan or after it is finished... if he cannot leave to another place then he doesn't have to leave...because the Quran says
''......and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion.....''
22:78
If leaving his place just to fast is a great difficulty then he simply doesn't have to leave or fast... Islam doesn't want a person to do the impossible...it wants to keep everything easy for its followers...
Hope that answers your question...
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S.R. Ahmadi 20+
first i do not know why all your comments are related to sex. do you have any sex problem?
are you married?
but about your doubt:
in Islam rules the need for sex is not considered as حرج (difficulties) people can be patient on sex while having no serous problem.
such sever need that this father (perhaps Indian) has made for himself is like need for drug or cigar that can not be considered a rational need.
but in emergency conditions some rules of Islam changes. for example in Islam easing the meat of dead animals (without slaughter, for example naturally dead) is banned. but in emergency conditions it is allowed.
or in war conditions there is not needed to Muslims do pray in usual form. they even can do pray at sleeping position.
difficulties in that verse means problems that are really very hard or dangerous or impossible to do for a person and this not include need for sex.
also marriage is very recommended in Islam and God ordered (not recommended) to parents and believers to make marriage for their youngs and God promised if they are poor I make then needless:
http://tanzil.net/#24:32
helping youngs to marriage is one of the best rewarded works by God and Muslims usually help and give money and needed accessories to people who need marriage but can not.
also marriage in soon ages is recommended in Islam.
prophet said:
"daughter is like fruit on tree. if it be picked later than its time will be expired."
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
in Islam each Muslim should be professional in Islamic knowledge or select a professional (marja) to ask him.
so lets ask a professional:
http://english.makarem.ir/estefta/?mit=451
the explain in Persian language is more detail:
http://persian.makarem.ir/compilation/book.php?bcc=28783&itg=7&bi=242&s=ct
different Marja may have different reply (fatwa) but mostly they say:
they people have day and night (while actually is day) according high and low level of sun. anyway they need sleep. and pray should be done according to that time of day ad night. (time is important not darkness)
some other say you can select a point on earth as reference and pray and fast according it.
some say pray and fast is not necessary for you.
Ed Schulte 50+
Re "yes Avicenna Khwarizmi Khayyam Hafiz Rumi and thousands other which are not famous in west All were great and Intelligent Humans. and no one said they were infallible. this is clear. "
Actually Rumi is the most quoted poet in the west has been so for sometime ...atleast 10 years ..so IOW just getting primed for Yunus Emre :-)
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
where are you?
why not participate this topic?
this post was originally started for your suggest.
you say:
"I do of course imply that any new information can change my opinion."
OK. Koran is a new Information.
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S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I do not know participate it or not.
I feel people on TED are not interested to here me. so I am considering leaving TED. (if this is right)
about Christophe perhaps you are right. other possibility can be that no one can disprove Koran or find any contradiction in Koran (with proof, not claims)
I agree religion is old argument. but I disagree Islam is old argument. perhaps you are comparing with Christianity and church.
"Our (my) viewpoint is that you are incapable of learning"
actually I learned many things from TED and I am studying every day. specially I changed my view about Evolution by learning from TED.
if some one show me enough proof I learn. but I can not accept claims without enough proof.
"You simply bend or ignore the information put in front of you to suit your current beliefs. "
please say a sample what is front of me that I have ignored? (and had enough proof)
"right-back-at-ya"
what means?
"How is that new information?"
I mean new for a person. not new in history. if some one had not considered Koran serious and deep it is new for him.
"babies take more then 1 minute"
sorry please explain your points about baby. I did not understand.
also please note atheism and materialism are older than religion.
I can show you talk between believers and atheists and materialists from time of Adam to today. at time of any prophet. Noah was firs prophet who introduced religion to humans and after 1000 years of try only 7 people accepted him.
for example this is a talk between atheists and Muslims near 1000 years ago:
http://www.al-islam.org/mufaddal/
its a short book and I recommend you read it. because its not from any human and its sayings are originally from God and revealed to Imam Sadiq (PBUH)
Ed Schulte 50+
wrt " I think Sun is moving because religious authority didn't sanction Earth rotation pre-Galilean days "
The whole fixation on the use of the word "Sun" here has been an entertainment,
Firstly the use of "Sun" and Aten etc is common enough but what is missed far to often ...is the fact that books such as the Koran have levels of understanding just as the HUman consciousness has levels of understanding.
To some still the only context "Sun" can refer to is that which is the source of Material / Reflected light this earth revolves around.
BUT (and it is a BIG BUT indeed!!!) if one is open enough consciously then the Context of "SUN" can easily ref to the source of the NON-reflected /// NON -Material light. IOW .........Consciousness BEFORE it comes into form.
And That "SUN" (source as it is experienced) then does indeed seem / feel / to be a progression towards a resting place because it is a felt progression into deeper and deeper "Stillness". Or as the one name Jesus puts it "The Peace that knows no other"
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I could not understand your English.
what you want to say?
Ed Schulte 50+
Peace be with you and yours
I, like "sometimes someone" am following this thread with "interest" as I too have had and continue to have rich experience with the people who reference the Koran as a guidance in the HUman aspect of HUman BEings.
The comment "sometimes someone" made wrt the "behavior of the Clerics " is a valuable one BUT it requires expansion to include the Clerics of ALL the Abrahamic Religions, CHRISTIANS and JUDEO-Christians as well. And "interesting" enough Their behavior is VERY similar to much of the behavior currently active on this thread.
WRT the "SUN" confusion I will drop in with a note at the end of the life of this thread but for now will use the same Poem I used on another thread.
Reality
-
In love, nothing exists between heart and heart.
Speech is born out of longing,
True description from the real taste.
The one who tastes, knows;
the one who explains, lies.
How can you describe the true form of Something
In whose presence you are blotted out?
And in whose being you still exist?
And who lives as a sign for your journey?
-
~ Rabia al-Basi
J Ali
Asalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Baraktuh- May Peace, Mercy and Blessings of Allah be upon you...
I want you to listen to the Quran in Arabic.....this proves nothing.....I would just like you to listen to it... The Quran which inspired and guided Rabia Al Basri in every walk of her life......
here is a link of Sheikh Muhammed Siddiq Al Minshawi reciting the Quran.....listen to it fully...if you want.
http://shiavoice.com/play-k3s28.html
Here is another link
http://www.althkr.com/951.html
Ed Schulte 50+
Re " Ed Schulte please educate yourself about the Dead Sea Scrolls:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls"
And may I suggest you do like wise Mr Dawson?
....wikipedia is the the ideal "mis-information" service .....try a Library instead .....are you familiar with the phrase "a little knowledge is VERY dangerous" ? Wikipedia is a very good example.
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Ed Schulte 50+
Re " If only you looked at the link Richard "
Well in fact ...I have watch it evolve Lqbai ....as I was doing my own reachers of TDSC and MHL and especially the St Thomas Gospels ...so the "if only" doesn't apply other then the reinforce the fact that 75 / 80 % is VERY inaccurate....the more "not acceptable" because it is not approved by the religious authorities is not there and not a surprise is it?? A great deal is riding on Old Lies and relative truths.
as for "not all library books" well that is potentially true IqbaL BUT then one is allowed to detect the difference be it wed info / media info / book info and test the truths for oneself
E G 10+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Imam Sajjad said in:
http://www.al-islam.org/sahifa
"My God!
When you was lost to be found now?"
E G 10+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"If the Koran is from Allah have it need to be proved correct?"
Allah has absolute knowledge so his book should not have any error.
this is first step.
if proved it shows this book at least is not from human
the next step is determining from who is this book.
no one unless Allah claimed Koran is from him
and also there is no important candidate competing God in writing Koran.
J Ali
I hope people who are searching for the truth, can understand what I have said. If you want to ask about the Quran then you are very welcome. If you want to ask about our beliefs then you are also very welcome. But if you want to read translations which may be very vague sometimes, if you want to read translations of verses that can only be understood through Arabic, the language of the Quran, and if you then want to start arguing on them, You can do that . But it is very wrong....
Whoever thinks that these arguments are hate-arguments then he is wrong.... I don't hate anyone, nor does anyone - I think- on this thread..... We want understanding between us....we want dialogue.....We want to destroy Bin Laden's false ideas just as much as you want to.... And more than 1 billion Muslims in the world have the same ideas.... We want co-existence....
''.....surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.''
2:190
''....surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.''
2:222
''...and Allah does not love the unjust.''
3:140
''...and Allah loves the patient.''
3:146
''Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust.''
3:159
''...Lo! Allah loveth the equitable.''
5:142
''.......and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.''
5:64
''....surely Allah does not love the treacherous.''
8:58
''And do not turn your face away from people in contempt, nor go about in the land exulting overmuch; surely Allah does not love any self-conceited boaster''
31:18
''And the slaves of the Beneficent Allah are they who walk on the earth in humbleness, and when the ignorant address them, they say: Peace''
25:63
Peace.
J Ali
But I must admit that people like Richard did not lie, they gave honest translations of the Quran,they didn't just lie. For that I give them many thanks and I applaud their honesty... The problem with people of this group is what In have constantly said about not understanding Arabic and what it does to your understanding of the Quran....I have written a lot about this so you may read my comments.... I fully understand why people who don't understand Arabic would say that this or that verses is false...and I have tried, frustratingly, to explain to them where they went false. I then decided I should just stop as this is just a waste of valuable time and no one is understanding anything... I encourage everyone to read translations of the Quran, but to start basing arguments on translations of the Quran is absolutely wrong.. Knowing that the Quran is the Arabic miracle, I know very well why that is wrong....
I, as a Muslim, love all humans....I may dislike their ideas....The Quran tells us to be kind to non-Muslims if they do not fight us or drive us out of our homes
'' Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.''
60:8
Truly, we love being just. And we come in peace and I hope we can dialogue more and more, but only honestly.
Contd Above.
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J Ali
Yes that is true.... But it wasn't the Prophet Muhammed ( btw I am not going to argue with you, so don't bother giving me links or anything else)
''J Ali, even if you threaten to kill me, i would still love you.''
Me too.. But I would definitely defend myself.
J Ali
''And continue to remind, for surely the reminder profits the believers.''
51:55
J Ali
''I have only been sent to perfect good manners''
-Prophet Muhammed (Peace be Upon Him)...
I find all religions to have beauty and humanity in them....
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I many times explained about marriages of prophet.
only one wife of prophet was young
prophet only had one wife until his first wife died and then prophet was old man.
then other marriages of prophet was by order of God and each case had different reason mostly political and educational.
Arab tribes became united when a marriage happen between them.
also for example Muslims did not respect captured non-Muslims and did not considered them as human and did not hear to prophet to respect them and prophet married to a captured woman to Muslims learn and respect them as humans.
each case has its own story.
please do not prejudice based on few thing you hear. Research, Research, Research,
"J Ali, even if you threaten to kill me, i would still love you. "
Islam never starts any war. but who start war against Islam will get a sever reply.
not any non-Muslim is infidel
please do not consider any one who do a behavior in the name of Islam (like suicide bombing) equal to Islam.
many of Muslims are infidel