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proving Koran

is there any proof that show Koran not from human and is from God?
1- It was opposite of most scientific and nonscientific beliefs of people of 1400 years ago that leaded to wars between prophet and Arabs. So Koran was not copied. People had 360 God and stars were daughters of God and many more silly beliefs. I suggest study context of Arabia at that time.
2- Koran said earth is round
3- Koran said sun will turn off one day
4- Koran has many amazing numbers in words letters ,.. that makes many amazing facts.(more than accidental)
5- Koran says sun is moving
6- It is 1400 years Koran is shouting http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:88 and Koran has many enemies but no one claimed could. Many tried but it was not more than joke. (themselves accepted. Fact in history until now)
Koran said human can pass layers of skies and earth and can go to skies but needs some power. and even said human can control moon and sun and what are in skies:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/55:33
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/45:13

7- Koran describes the steps of growth of fetus in womb in 7 presise.
8- Koran appeared in city of Mekka that many conservative Jews and Christians also lived there and they had high power. Also many enemies of prophet among Arab all were trying to disprove and destroy new prophet. Koran may times claimed you can not make a book or a chapter like Koran. Indeed if they could they made a book similar to Koran against Koran to not cost for war. But there is not still any book similar Koran.
9- Koran was said during 23 years by prophet. You know the ideas of a writer changes over time. But Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict.
10- There is many facts in history many famous people in Arab wanted to destroy Koran but no one could.
11- There is no proved conflict in Koran with science.

they are only some facts about Koran.

**before referring to a verse please read it yourself and do not copy from invalid and biased links**

Topics: God Koran atheism
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    Jun 29 2011: SR the onus of proving the Quran (is from God) is on you. I have taken each claim 1 to 11 made by you above and shown that there are doubts about each of them.

    Let us take only claims 2, 5 and 6 and show how not only do these claims not prove the Quran but disprove it.

    Claim 2. Even if the Quran said the Earth is round, it in no way proves the Quran is from God.

    However if the Quran says the Earth is flat then it disproves that Quran could be from an all knowing God.

    The Greek mathematician and poet Eratosthenes, almost 1,000 years before Muhammad, not only figured out the world was round but also calculated the circumference of the earth and the tilt of the Earth's axis both with remarkable accuracy.

    He did this only by observations, reason and calculations, without the help of any God.

    I have shown you nowhere does the Quran directly say the Earth is round. In every verse where it mentions the shape of the Earth it uses some description of flatness.

    Your argument of Easts and Wests, are mere observations and from that you can only arrive at a round Earth through logical deductions which the Quran never makes.

    Claim 5 – “Koran says sun is moving”

    Quran 21:33 “It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its ROUNDED course.”

    This again is from observation where the Sun, Moon and Stars APPEAR to move in a CIRCULAR ORBIT around the Earth.

    Again NEVER ONCE does the Quran ever say the Earth is moving. Because then again it APPEARS to be still.

    Take also that the Quran says 18:86 “Until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, HE FOUND IT SET IN A SPRING OF MURKY WATER: “

    And 36:38 “And the sun which runs to ITS RESTING-PLACE…”

    This clearly shows that the Quran thinks the Sun moves in a circular orbit around the Earth and sets in the Earth at night (its RESTING place), EVERYTHING THAT IT APPEARS TO DO WITH THE NAKED EYE.

    Surely an all knowing God would know this was not true?
    • Jun 29 2011: "I have shown you nowhere does the Quran directly say the Earth is round. In every verse where it mentions the shape of the Earth it uses some description of flatness."
      I am sorry for you. you are strong head. its your misundrestanding of Koran. Koran says earth is round.
      another verse:
      http://tanzil.net/#39:5
      in a flat earth how:
      1- night is folded ON day and
      2- day of folded ON night?
      please explain. this is description of flat earth or round earth?
      also about easts and wests and also other verses.

      "Your argument of Easts and Wests, are mere observations and from that you can only arrive at a round Earth through logical deductions which the Quran never makes."
      you are playing with words.
      any kind of observe however it is possible only in a round earth.

      "deductions which the Quran never makes."
      who said Koran made deductions?
      Koran says the result. not need to deductions.
      it is clear that Koran says earth is round no need to deductions.
      it is important Koran says earth is flat or round.
      deductions is irrelevant.

      "Quran 21:33 “It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its ROUNDED course.”"
      show me the Arabic word for rounded in Koran.
      Koran says in they are moving (like a ship in ocean. not swimming) in a PATH.
      it is the path a plant or star moves in universe and not necessarily circular. but possibly circular. it is path. not circular orbit. you are misquoting Koran.

      "Again NEVER ONCE does the Quran ever say the Earth is moving. Because then again it APPEARS to be still."
      I am sorry for you. Koran has at least 469 saying about earth. did you research them all?
      http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%B6
      read these and do not claim what you do not know:
      Koran says earth is moving. example:
      http://tanzil.net/#77:25 (birth with tight wings and moving fast)
      http://tanzil.net/#27:88
      http://tanzil.net/#20:53
      http://tanzil.net/#67:15 (a camel walking docile and calm)
    • Jun 29 2011: "Take also that the Quran says 18:86 “Until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, HE FOUND IT SET IN A SPRING OF MURKY WATER: “"
      found it means APPARENTLY.
      how many times I should repeat? do not you understand meaning of FOUND IT?
      it is kind of saying address of a place (probably Azerbaijan)

      "And 36:38 “And the sun which runs to ITS RESTING-PLACE…”

      This clearly shows that the Quran thinks the Sun moves in a circular orbit around the Earth and sets in the Earth at night (its RESTING place), EVERYTHING THAT IT APPEARS TO DO WITH THE NAKED EYE."
      how resting place means circular orbit???!!!

      [this is my personal idea: there is two possibility about Big Bang:
      1- universe will expand for ever.
      2- one day universe stop expanding and then starts collapsing back.
      and I think in this verse God says the 2 will happen]


      I ask you do not interpret Koran as you like and do not make story about sun and resting at night.

      i do not know really what you are looking for?
      are you really seeking truth or you have other goal?
      this is not behaviour of who is seeking truth.

      I said many times Koran has many verses about earth and if some one really wants to know truth and know and communicate God through Koran and who is honest first independently researches those verses all and then honestly decides Koran says earth is flat or round and what Koran says about sun,...
      but who had disease in his heart quickly searches in Google and first link finds against Koran copies here without reading even one page of Koran.
      if you are really not seeking truth and have other goal please do not waste my time.
      I am seeking who are relay seeking truth. not who claiming are seeking truth. they are very rare.
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        Jun 29 2011: @ SR “if you are really not seeking truth and have other goal please do not waste my time. I am seeking who are relay seeking truth. not who claiming are seeking truth. they are very rare.”

        I am seeking the truth. Why do you say that I am not? Is your definition of truth that the Quran is from God? If you start off with that belief, then any evidence contrary to that belief you will reject.

        Is your claim Quran is from God a HYPOTHESIS or an AXIOM? If it is an AXIOM then there is no debate.

        However if it is a hypothesis then it should be examined like any hypothesis in science. We have accept or reject the hypothesis according to the evidence. Even if one evidence is against the hypothesis, the hypothesis has to be rejected.

        I have only quoted from the Quran and only taken the translations of the expert scholars of Arabic. If the translations are wrong then it is for you to tell me the correct translations of that verse.

        If you are refusing to believe the evidence written in the verses, then SR it is YOU who are not seeking the truth and not being honest. You are not being honest with yourself. You are not admitting the truth which you know in your heart of hearts is true.
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        Jun 29 2011: In reply to my "Again NEVER ONCE does the Quran ever say the Earth is moving. Because then again it APPEARS to be still." You have said:

        @ SR “I am sorry for you. Koran has at least 469 saying about earth. did you research them all?
        http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%B6

        1. Most of those verses that mention the Earth say nothing about the shape of the Earth and NONE of them say anything about it moving. For example the first verse says "Make not mischief on the earth"

        2. IF that statement of mine is wrong it is for YOU to tell me which verse tells us the Earth is moving, not for me to do research and then report back to you. It is your hypothesis that the Quran is true.

        3. You have given some verses which YOU CLAIM say the Earth is moving. Your claim is false. NONE of them say it is moving.

        77:25 “Have We not made the earth a container” – You have said “birth with tight wings and moving fast” where did you get that translation from? (What is moving fast? The Earth?)

        67:15 “It is He who made the earth tame for you - so walk among its slopes and eat of His provision” – You have said “a camel walking docile and calm” I don’t know where the camel comes in but clearly it is talking about men walking on the Earth not the Earth walking anywhere or moving. (Here is the Earth moving slow?)

        27:88 “And you see the mountains, thinking them rigid, while they will pass as the passing of clouds. [It is] the work of Allah, who perfected all things. Indeed, He is Acquainted with that which you do.” Nothing about the Earth moving

        20:53 “[It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out] ..” Nothing about the Earth moving, but giving the impression that the Earth is flat.

        All the translations are from your link only.

        So again if there is even ONE verse that says the earth is moving please show me or accept that the Quran does not say the Earth is moving.

        Show me. Instead of asking me questions, provide some answers.
        • Jul 16 2011: J Ali -

          below you say, "Bin Laden and his like are not Muslims..they did not know anything of the Quran...people will always use what they can for their own good....they are not even human, they are terrorists"

          Please you scare me when you talk like this. Do you realize that is the same logic the Sunis use to kill Shias?

          This kind of reasoning gives them immunity to Qur'an 4:93 ''And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and CURSE him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.''

          Relax a little. Bin Laden and the like ARE Muslims and they ARE human. They may not have the right idea of Islam, but they are Muslims. They may not be nice humans but they are humans. Our fellow man. We must acknowledge this. I don't know what the answer is; Live and let live? educate? show love and understanding? fight them if they attack us?

          Whatever it is, we are all part of the same human family, you, me, them, the Chinese, the African, the European, the Eskimo, the good and the bad. Reason with them and try to get them to do good. God is good.

          Sadly, I think it is the Islamic scriptures that has lead them to this highly negative behavior. They think so too, they just don't see it as negative.
      • Jun 30 2011: SR - Be honest! The sun does not have a resting place, day or night. Therefor the Qur'an is wrong, and that's all it takes is one wrong statement and the whole premise of it being the exact word of God falls apart.
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          Jun 30 2011: Exactly
        • Jul 1 2011: Dear Elam,
          Koran did not say resting point at DAY OR NIGHT!
          please do not misquote Koran.
          Koran only said:
          SUN IS GOING TO ITS RESTING POINT.where is day or night? not said resting at night or day.
          I repeated this many times and again Richard repeat it and says Exactly!
          please look here and show me day or night:
          http://tanzil.net/#36:38
          if DAY OR NIGHT not found please say honestly you are wrong.
          Richard made me sad by this his behavior. he repeats false information after my explains and showing in Koran.

          this is what Richard said and you are repeating it without checking Koran.
          I am sorry for you and Richard. coping from liar links who cut or misquote or mix parts of Koran and make lies. I hope God send lie makers to Hell.

          some people are like housefly. they leave flowers and sit only on smelly things.
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          Jul 1 2011: SR Please understand, by saying the Sun does not have a resting place day or night, it means the Sun does not have a resting place ANYTIME, period!

          He is not saying the Quran said that. What he is pointing out is the Quran says the sun "runs to ITS RESTING-PLACE" and the Sun does not have a resting place anytime.

          Not during day, not during night, not in a billion years, not EVER.

          "Richard made me sad by this his behavior. he repeats false information after my explains and showing in Koran."

          It is YOU SR who keeps repeating false things. I point out the errors in your explanations and yet you continue with your explanations as though they are true.

          According to you anyone who points out the truth, if it contradicts the Quran, is like a housefly sitting on smelly things.

          In your mind I would say beautiful things if I told you I agreed with you, accepted all the unbelievable things you say, and stopped pointing out the truth.

          SR "Koran says earth is moving. example:
          http://tanzil.net/#77:25 (earth is moving like birth with tight wings and moving fast)"

          And the link says "Made We not the earth to be a housing"

          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/77:25

          NONE of them say the Earth is moving!

          YOU are lying SR. Stop lying.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 2 2011: You are all wrong..and sometimes (sorry SR, I love you btw) even SR is wrong..you do not understand Arabic and therefore the Quran..... I am too impatient for these kind of arguments... Ugh! I'm going to burst...! Richard I fully understand your arguments and the answers to them are very clear to me.....I'm just a little impatient to write them down.....I have only recently started to argue by the internet and it hasn't been fun...very frustrating actually...I prefer face to face arguments......how long has this been going on for?!!

          With SR's English, your sad misunderstanding and everyone throwing claims at each other...This is actually getting quite funny...but sad.

          Bye bye.....and if you want to ask me anything about Islam sometime,and you want to know the truth, with no misunderstanding, I am always here to help you out, Richard. Have a great worldly life!!

          :))
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          Jul 2 2011: Dont get me wrong. I love SR too. Its just that he exasperates the hell out of me. (SR thats just an English "expression". English is a funny language - with a lot of funny expressions, like day and night)
        • Jul 2 2011: "the Sun does not have a resting place ANYTIME, period!"
          are you astronomer?


          "NONE of them say the Earth is moving!"
          when they say earth is like x and x is a moving thing it means earth is moving.
          I am not interested to repeat this again.
          you can accept or not.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 2 2011: SR,

          http://tanzil.net/#2:285
          http://tanzil.net/#7:79
          http://tanzil.net/#11:17 -ويتلوه شاهد يعني امام علي -عليه السلام
          http://tanzil.net/#43:83
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          Jul 2 2011: ""the Sun does not have a resting place ANYTIME, period!"

          SR "are you astronomer?"

          1. No but when I was 12, I learned Newton's Laws of Motion. It follows from Newton's first law..
          2. From a reading of that verse along with the others such as "the setting-place of the sun", since the sun sets at night, the resting place it is obviously referring to, is the "murky spring" at the "setting-place of the sun", at night.
          3. In any case the Sun will never stop moving, as I said it follows from Newton's first Law of motion. Why dont you ask an astronomer?
          4. No verse of the Quran says the Earth moves in an orbit, like it says of the Sun and the Moon, which can be seen to move. The Earth cannot be seen or felt to move and the Quran has no such verse saying the Earth moves in an orbit.

          None of the verses you have referred to say the Earth is moving.

          SR "when they say earth is like x and x is a moving thing it means earth is moving"

          But each x they refer to is NOT a moving thing.

          77:25 - a housing, storehouse, repository, receptacle. None of them move, None of them revolve or rotate like the Earth.
          27:88 - we have been through this before. The hills will vanish like the clouds on the judgement day.
          20:53 - A bed spread out, or a cradle, none of them moving, they dont revolve or rotate like the Earth
          60:57 - The Earth is NOT moving docile as you claim. The verse says "It is He who made the earth submissive to you; therefore walk in its tracts" Its telling YOU and people to walk on the Earth. It is not saying the Earth is moving.

          Those are the only 4 verses you have referred to.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 2 2011: Richard, why are you arguing on something you know nothing about? You do not know Arabic or the Quran.....I think you just love arguing with SR...you'r having fun...you are just playing.... you don't understand Arabic or speak a word of it so just leave the Quran and go argue on something you know about..... you are offending me because you are acting ignorantly towards Islam's holy book......Ignorantly in the fact that you know nothing of the Quran and you don't understand what it is saying...The Quran is not for anyone to come and interpret, especially when you are reading translations...Are you not understanding this or are you just playing?...

          I would never argue against Evolution because I don't know a lot about it and If I were to argue you would certainly notice very funny and misunderstood claims by me.....I am seeing these ridiculous and funny claims from you, because you do not understand the Quran...so please stop...
        • Jul 2 2011: Richard, Please don't stop bringing an intelligent, sane, non-deluded rebuttal to S.R.'s tireless attempts to delude the world. Thank you for having the patience to "fight the good fight".

          J Ali, "The Quran is not for anyone to come and interpret"---I say that is exactly what it is for. The current state of the "Islamic world" proves that people take what they want from the book. Instead of Richard Dawson, you should be offended by the followers of your religion who poison Islam's name through their actions which they justify by this book. As far as "ridiculous and funny claims" go, I feel they are coming from your side of the argument. Does this mean I should be offended by you?

          If you want to put an end to the winning arguments of Richard Dawson in these debates with S.R., I would suggest convincing S.R. to stop posting these same debates. Good luck with that one though.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 2 2011: J Ali, "The Quran is not for anyone to come and interpret"---I say that is exactly what it is for. The current state of the "Islamic world" proves that people take what they want from the book. Instead of Richard Dawkins, you should be offended by the followers of your religion who poison Islam's name through their actions which they justify by this book.''


          And who told you that I am not offended by people who interpret the Quran for their own use...killing children, women and innocent lives..They are killing us also.....I am very offended by the people who claim to be followers of my religion and I stand firmly against them..

          If you had read what I was saying, I said that because the Quran is an Arabic book, no one can come and interpret it without full knowledge in all of the subjects needed to explain the Quran...Bin Laden and his like are not Muslims..they did not know anything of the Quran...people will always use what they can for their own good....they are not even human, they are terrorists... And Muslim scholars have always been standing against him, Wahabissm and Terrorism....We stand for Justice.....before America was attacked, we were being murdered for more than 1400 years.....Before New York, Madrid and London it was Karbala were a massacre took place....where the grandson of the prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) and his family (including his baby) and companions were murdered...Before America was attacked, my uncles and grandfathers were murdered one after the other for being Shia Muslims....Please read about our history....we have been oppressed since the first day the Prophet Muhammed died...... Islam is not what Al-Qaeda would have liked you to think it was.....

          ''The fact that you continue to win these arguments ''

          ''Fain would they extinguish Allah.s light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).''

          9:32

          Btw, I don't see any Richard Dawkins here.
        • Jul 2 2011: "Btw, I don't see any Richard Dawkins here"

          Good point. I apologize for my typo.

          I do not apologize for pointing out that being offended by a man who is having an intelligent debate on a subject is totally different from being truly offended by Murderers, rapists, and any animal who tries to pass him/herself off as a human. Save your "offense" for something worthy of it, please.

          To the point you made about your people being killed for years. I am offended by senseless murder. That type of thing has happened and continues to happen in every part of the world in varying degrees. THAT is what offended me, not an argument over the "perfection" of a book.

          I find it ironic that you use a verse from the Koran translated into English to make your last point. I understand it quite well, even though I did not read it in the original Arabic. ...Quite ironic indeed.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 2 2011: ''I do not apologize for pointing out that being offended by a man who is having an intelligent debate''

          I am offended because he doesn't understand the Quran to start arguing about it....Just like a scientist would be annoyed if anyone comes and starts arguing the theory of evolution with them.....making obvious mistakes and so on......

          ''that type of thing has happened and continues to happen''

          Well, to us it has been happening the first day the Prophet Muhammed died....not something new.... The Prophet Muhammed would be the most person against what Muslims are doing today...If you talk of Muslims being terrorists, Murderers....then yes but not all of them....If you talk of Muslims being uncivilized, then mostly yes....why do you think I like that>? do you think Islam teaches us to be like this??

          ''I find it ironic that you use a verse from the Koran translated into English to make your last point.''

          The Quran can be understood through translations, but not enough, not enough at all for someone to start arguing on verses..... I mean, all of Richards arguments are based on no understanding of Arabic..Arabic is absolutely vital to understanding the Quran and arguing on what it says and what it means..The Quran's ideas are open for discussion...but not what the Quran says..you need to be an expert at Arabic, Islam and more to understand what the Quran is saying......

          http://www.shiamultimedia.com/books/english/Ayatullah%20Jafar%20Subhani%20-%20Intoduction%20To%20The%20%20Science%20Of%20Tafseer%20Of%20The%20Quran.pdf

          Read this book please....


          An intelligent debate is only one if the arguments are based on full understanding....what I am saying is that Richard has got no clue what he is saying...because he does not understand the Quran.....I am not offended by the fact he is debating...we love debate...but I am offended by ignorant and unfair debates on the Quran with absolutely no understanding of it....... No one has one these debates, not Richard nor SR....
        • Jul 2 2011: "I am offended because he doesn't understand the Quran to start arguing about it....Just like a scientist would be annoyed if anyone comes and starts arguing the theory of evolution with them.....making obvious mistakes and so on......"

          You hit the nail on the head. I couldn't agree more. Scientists would be annoyed to debate a subject with someone who knows nothing about the facts they need to make their claim.This is quite different than being "offended" by someone arguing the counterpoint to a proposed debate about the "perfection" of a book. Beliefs are not facts. Interpretations are not facts. Who is to say that your interpretation is the one who the writer of the Koran (whoever that was), meant to be the correct one? I say that being annoyed and being offended are different. Be annoyed with Richard if you like, but don't be offended. Again, save your offense for something worthy of it.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 2 2011: ''Be annoyed with Richard if you like, but don't be offended.''

          ''This is quite different than being "offended" by someone arguing the counterpoint to a proposed debate about the "perfection" of a book.''

          ''beliefs are not facts. Interpretations are not facts.''

          Arguing must be through the proper understanding..... The Quran is the Book of Islam and like any other book or branch of knowledge there is a special way to argue on the Quran.....this can only be done with great understanding of Arabic.....otherwise we will keep going on and on with no understanding.....I have said that all of his arguments have clear answers...and that the main reason he is wrong is because he doesn't understand Arabic...I respect the idea of arguing greatly....I respect everyone who argues on anything.....I respect their arguments....but I find it ignorant and a waste of valuable time to start arguing on something you know nothing about.....That is not to say that the Quran can only be understood by Arabic experts...it can be understood by anyone in the world.....just in the right way from the right scholars of Islam who know what they are talking about....I hope you can understand this.....and maybe ''offended'' wasn't the right word to choose..so apologies if that annoyed you...I am just saying that it is very wrong and makes no one a winner as you claim......

          ''Who is to say that your interpretation is the one who the writer of the Koran (whoever that was), meant to be the correct one?''

          I did not say anything like that, I was talking of the moments before actual interpretation, someones background of knowledge into a particular subject, in this case- The Quran, Which Richard has none of due to the points explained. Which makes all his arguments worth nothing...not a winner, no one was....but still respect the way he argues...

          Thanks.
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          Jul 2 2011: J Ali - “ You do not know Arabic” True

          “or the Quran” Not true.

          I have copies of the English translations. I have not read the whole book admitted, because I find it too disjointed, repetitive and boring to read, but I can look up and search for any claims made by you or SR.

          JR “.....I think you just love arguing with SR...you'r having fun...you are just playing....”

          No I would rather involve my time elsewhere but I think this is important. In the meantime, since I do it, I might as well have some fun too.

          I am only quoting the Quran (since you object to the Hadith’s) and using straightforward logic to interpret it’s meaning. If you find that offensive, I am sorry but I am not going to stop, if SR wont stop either.

          I think I have proven my point to any unbiased reader.

          You are not reading a passage right when you ignore the actual theme of the passage to go tearing off after a word and trying to relate it to the Big Bang or the Sun turning into a Red Giant 4 billion years hence, when the obvious meaning is the Sun's daily revolution around the Earth and having its resting place at night in a muddy spring.

          J Ali “The Quran is not for anyone to come and interpret, especially when you are reading translations...Are you not understanding this”

          I am understanding what you are saying all right, but I’m not buying it. (I don’t accept your contention as being correct). This is just a way to wriggle out of the debate or challenge you yourself issued.

          J Ali “I would never argue against Evolution because I don't know a lot about it”

          No one stops you from learning about Evolution and then questioning it.

          Science invites questions and challenges to promote understanding and knowledge. If in the course of these questions and challenges you manage to disprove a theory it is modified to accommodate the new insight.

          It invites questions not submission.

          There is no idea or theory that is sacred in science.
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          Jul 2 2011: Don’t think I didn’t read those passages you quoted to SR, telling him to lay off.

          “Is he (to be counted equal with them) who relieth on a clear proof from his Lord, and a witness from Him reciteth it, …? Such believe therein, and whoso disbelieveth therein of the clans, the Fire is his appointed place. So be not thou in doubt concerning it. Lo! it is the Truth from thy Lord; but most of mankind believe not.”

          http://tanzil.net/#11:17

          Sure that is indeed a great argument.

          And more so when Muhammad and the Quran repeatedly challenge others to show their proof.

          But when they themselves are questioned or challenged for their proof it threatens the disbelievers with Hell Fire.

          Unfortunately for you I stopped believing in the Bogey-man a long time ago.

          Hell may frighten you but not me and not a whole lot of people who have either not been subjugated by that phobia to start off with, or have rationally overcome it.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: '' I am only quoting the Quran (since you object to the Hadith’s) and using straightforward logic to interpret it’s meaning.''

          Firstly I do NOT object to the Hadith and I have said that clearly.....

          I am not trying to force you to stop...I am asking you to, if you want you can continue....I don't really care because you don't understand Arabic....use your logical interpretations of the translations..and then at the end of it all you think you have defeated Islam, the Quran and all Muslims.... I am just trying to tell you how wrong that is...you are ignorant...

          ''I think I have proven my point to any unbiased reader.''

          Yes you certainly have....but I can also be unbiased in anything I don't understand....

          ''You are not reading a passage right when you ignore the actual theme of the passage to go tearing off after a word and trying to relate it to the Big Bang or the Sun turning into a Red Giant 4 billion years hence, when the obvious meaning is the Sun's daily revolution around the Earth and having its resting place at night in a muddy spring.''

          I'll keep it short, you don't understand a thing on the Quran....because you don't understand Arabic...

          ''This is just a way to wriggle out of the debate or challenge you yourself issued.''

          I never issued any challenge....you started claiming things, out of ignorance, and i tried to answer..then I just left you..because I don't argue with ignorant people....

          ''No one stops you from learning about Evolution and then questioning it.''

          I am saying that you don't know anything about the Quran so you can't question anything about what it seems to say to you through translations..YOU don't seem to be learning.

          ''Science invites questions and challenges to promote understanding and knowledge.''

          So does Islam, but not ignorantly and prejudicially... If it so difficult for you to understand this...then don't, and keep arguing.. I am not forcing you to stop.....just that, it won't affect any Muslim or the Quran or Islam..
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: ''It invites questions not submission.''

          Islam invites to submission to God, but only through thought and knowledge...I don't believe that a lot of Muslims of the world have true submission to Allah, because they don't have true knowledge.... it is blind following just like most other religious followers..You are judging Islam by its followers...Islam does not invite to blind following, The Quran is actually the most religious book I've seen denouncing Blind following....and that is why you find our philosophical and Kalam books mentioning in detail the ideas of others, arguing them rationally through logic and then giving what Islam says and proving it.... I invite you to come to our seminaries to see how we teach...

          '' Don’t think I didn’t read those passages you quoted to SR, telling him to lay off.''
          ''Sure that is indeed a great argument. ''

          I don't care if you read them or not..I didn't even post them for you...It was for SR as he is a fellow Muslim brother... You and your claims and arguments are nothing to me because they are based on no understanding.....I respect you...but you are of no value to me.....

          This shows your misunderstanding, who said the verse was an argument.....did I even give it as an argument?! I gave it for SR to read....

          ''But when they themselves are questioned or challenged for their proof it threatens the disbelievers with Hell Fire.''

          Not when they are questioned....but always, Glad Tidings and warnings.......The Quran was never challenged for proof, the Quran was first accepted by Arabs as the words of God... The Quran challenged the greatest of Arabs to produce one surah the likes of the Quran....no one could or ever will....If you don't like that then don't, I don't really care...

          ''Unfortunately for you I stopped believing in the Bogey-man a long time ago. ''

          No, not unfortunate for me. Unfortunate for you...I don't care about you one bit... and I can just ask you to wait and see....Death is not far away..
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: ''Science invites questions and challenges to promote understanding and knowledge''

          Muslims made modern science what it is today.....read our history, read about what is called the Islamic Golden Age.... Do you think we hate science or something?..Islam supports fact...Islam supports truth....Islam promotes knowledge...Please do not look at what Muslims are doing today....I look at them and I feel like cursing them just as much as you might curse them.......There is something above science, something above this universe.... Read our philosophical proofs...read what the likes of Avicenna had to say.... His books aren't even studied in universities today...why? You think we just ''believe''..... do you know how much I hate that thing about Christianity? that someone has to believe even if sometimes it doesn't make sense? Religion is not Mystery... Religion is rational logical and philosophical proof.... If intelligent design is refuted by evolution (as Richard Dawkins might like to say) then he still has tens of others of philosophical proofs to refute.... Lets see him stand against Avicenna...

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasir_al-Din_al-Tusi

          Read about this mans life and tell me where he wasn't scientific....

          Muslims may be changing from good to bad or from bad to worse,yes..they do not always represent Islam..Islam will stay forever..The Flag of the Quran will be here forever..the Flag of God will be here forever....the Flag of There is no God But Allah and Muhammed is his messenger will stay here forever..The same Islam..there will always be people on earth worshiping their Lord and your Lord, we don't care about Atheists ...Muslims might be uncivilized and destructors today ...but Islam is not Muslims....You can keep arguing if you like....with SR.

          Goodbye everybody.
        • J Ali

          • +1
          Jul 3 2011: Iqbal, did you just become Atheist or are you still Hindu? Were you even Hindu before? you confuse me a lot, you just seem to come in at the end of everything and leave differing comments..you give me a well needed laugh at the end these conversations..just popping up from nowhere with your delightful comments...thanks!.. so what do you believe in? are you an Atheist?
        • Jul 3 2011: Richard,
          "But each x they refer to is NOT a moving thing."
          they all are moving things.
          for example cradle. you say cradle is not moving. are you sure?
          cradle is for babies and is moving to baby not cry.
          I do not know what is cradle in New Zealand.
          or ذلول means a calm walking animal specially camel.
          also other words are moving things.
          if you not consider the moving meaning of them then how you translate those verses?
        • Jul 3 2011: "77:25 - a housing, storehouse, repository, receptacle. None of them move, None of them revolve or rotate like the Earth."
          Words you said are not the only meanings of کفاتا. It also has the meaning of a fast moving bird with closed wings.
          How you can understand which of meaning is correct in context?
          Also I do not say this meaning (fast bird) from myself.

          "27:88 - we have been through this before. The hills will vanish like the clouds on the judgment day. "
          this verse does not speak about vanishing or about judgment day. This is your unproved claim that this verse is about Judgment day. Yes there is possibility that this is about Judgment day but also there is possibility it is not about Judgment day that I showed proof that it is not about Judgment day.

          "20:53 - A bed spread out, or a cradle, none of them moving, they dont revolve or rotate like the Earth"
          مهادا does not mean bed. It is cradle which is for babies and is moving go and back to baby not cry. Please search the meaning of مهد

          "60:57 - The Earth is NOT moving docile as you claim. The verse says "It is He who made the earth submissive to you; therefore walk in its tracts" Its telling YOU and people to walk on the Earth. It is not saying the Earth is moving."
          Your verse number is wrong.
          It is http://tanzil.net/#67:15
          Please search ذلول it means a docile animal which before has been wild .
          It is mostly used for a calm walking camel.
          It is normal in Arab to call a calm walking camel ذلول.
          ذلول is a king of camel. For example people say: how much is price of that ذلول? Or I have a ذلول. It means calm walking camel.

          And this verse says: "he is who made earth for you docile"
          It means in past earth was moving wild (perhaps at first stages of age of earth) and then earth became moving calm like a wild animal that then becomes docile.

          Also your translate "It is He who made the earth submissive to you" says such thing. What means "He who made the earth submissive to you"?
          To be hones it does not mean earth
        • Jul 3 2011: Also your translate "It is He who made the earth submissive to you" says such thing. What means "He who made the earth submissive to you"?
          To be hones it does not mean earth before was moving wild then God made it submissive for human? Why a earth needs to be submissive ? Because human needs to live on it. And if it moves wild human can not live.

          But you insist they do not mean earth is moving.
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          Jul 3 2011: ''I am only quoting the Quran (since you object to the Hadith’s) and using straightforward logic to interpret it’s meaning.''

          J Ali – “Firstly I do NOT object to the Hadith ..”

          You do not object to the Hadith whenever it confirms your beliefs, and reject it when it doesn’t.

          The Quran says Muhammad was a perfect human being. The Hadiths and the Sira paint a very different picture, so you reject the bad bits, which are many.

          I am not playing that game. I would rather take the challenge using the Quran alone and not leave you or anyone with an excuse against my arguments.

          J Ali “It was for SR as he is a fellow Muslim brother... you are of no value to me…”

          I reject any ideology that makes you, in your mind, divide your fellow human beings into Muslim and non-Muslim. That, in your mind, makes you superior to your fellow human beings because of your belief. That makes humans into valueless creatures depending on their beliefs.

          Such an ideology can never be the right one for humans.

          You say I am of no value and that you will laugh at me when I am in Hell on the judgement day.

          Though your beliefs are ridiculous and absurd, your feelings, which are generated because of your beliefs, are not.

          I, who you condemn, because I do not believe in Allah or Muhammad, and point out errors in their writings, consider you as a fellow human being and would never wish any ill or harm to you or any stranger who has done me no harm.

          Tell me, why do you think that you are morally superior to me just because you believe in Allah and Muhammad?

          J Ali “Muslims made modern science what it is today..”

          That is absolutely not true. Modern science owes its antecedents to the Greek thinkers and scientists, Archimedes, Aristotle and others.

          Human thought is the product of humans, not Zeus or Apollo, or Ra, or Allah or any other god.

          The modern scientific renaissance and the fathers of modern science Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Dalton, Darwin, etc owed nothing to the Muslims.
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          Jul 3 2011: SR - your arguments are so childish and patently absurd as to be laughable.

          SR "I do not know what is cradle in New Zealand"

          1. The word is Bed OR Cradle
          2. Cradles in New Zealand are not whipped around and around like Earth around the Sun. Is that what is done in Iran?

          "My Lord neither erreth nor forgetteth, Who hath appointed the earth as a bed and hath threaded roads for you therein.."
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/20:53

          It is saying that God has made the Earth like a bed or cradle for humanity and has "threaded roads for us therein.." (though we and not Allah make roads).

          Who in his right mind would interpret that as the Earth moving around the Sun or moving at all?

          Stop this nonsense. None of those verses talk about the Earth moving at all. And none of them speak of the Earth moving in an orbit around the Sun.

          On the other hand the Quran talks about the Sun moving in an orbit, it talks about a place where the sun sets, and talks about the sun's resting place.

          "And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. (38) And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf. (39) It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit. (40)"

          Open your mind and stop lying to yourself SR.

          If the verse is talking about a red sky, it could be talking about the big bang or red giants, but maybe, just maybe, its talking about a red sky?
        • Jul 3 2011: @J Ali, I wish I had ample time to read the entire commentary going on here, but I don't. However, somewhere up there you mentioned that understanding Koran requires sufficient skills in the Arabic language, and going along your trace of thought, some understanding of the culture and history of Islamic world. I absolutely agree with you, and that's why I should point out it constitutes that Koran is not universal and timeless. How would you expect a non Muslim to accept its validity if he/she cannot even understand it? I guess it is something to ponder about!
          Update: I just saw Richard made the same point in a post and S.R. responding by learning Arabic online! However, that is merely an anachronism as I have to first accept validity of Koran and then go learn Arabic but not to learn Arabic and then accept the validity of Koran. That is there is nothing to make me learn Arabic at the first place!

          @S. R. Thanks for initiating this discussion although I try not to get involved with it more than this. I just want to point out I had lived in Iran for years and spend a great deal of deal of it studying Islam. The things you claimed about Islamic Clergy, I emphasize the word Clergy not regular people, are at best deceptive. Their crimes are evident to any human right activist.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: ''You do not object to the Hadith whenever it confirms your beliefs, and reject it when it doesn’t. ''

          There are authentic Hadith and there are inauthentic hadith, this is known by studying very precisely the chain of narrators and studying the matn and so on...... Which is done by a mujtahid and not by me.....

          '' I reject any ideology that makes you, in your mind, divide your fellow human beings into Muslim and non-Muslim.''

          I did not say that he was morally superior to you.. I said I gave him the verse because he understands it..... not because you are different... Because he has read it many times before.. You just want to force yourself to understand the Quran...even if you don't....

          ''I, who you condemn, because I do not believe in Allah or Muhammad, and point out errors in their writings,''

          You point out errors to what YOU understand of TRANSLATIONS...... You DO NOT understand the Quran.. it seems you never will either...

          ''They subjugated your minds in an ideology that you and SR and millions of others are still slaves to.''

          No, I am Allahs slave.....I think rationally of my ideas on God, his oneness, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the rest of Islam. Ali Bin Abi Talib, .Avicenna, Averroes, Nasir al Din Al Tusi, Mulla Sadra and others were not brainwashed...they reached a stage of thought which you will never ever reach...You think we are subjugated in an ideology because you think you have destroyed the Quran through your claims on translations and your ignorant understanding...You are ignorant of your ignorance..and that is what destroys people....I keep telling you, if you want you can continue with SR...just that you are wasting your time.....

          I am not going to argue with you anymore..... When pride and ignorance come together...someone like you is made..you know nothing about Islam..

          ''Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance is the death of knowledge.''

          Goodbye Richard... continue with your hate of Islam and not Muslims..Wait...
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: Dear Sometimes Someone, lovely name....

          ''as I have to first accept validity of Koran and then go learn Arabic but not to learn Arabic and then accept the validity of Koran.''

          Very true.,,and I have been saying that the Quran is for everyone and not just experts of Arabic.... Millions of people who do not speak Arabic have converted to Islam.....they did not know Arabic so how did they become Muslims? the answer is that the message of the Quran is not an Arabic message...it is for all of mankind.....just like any other message... The Quran can be explained fully by Muslim scholars to absolutely anyone....Translations of the Quran do not encompass at all the Arabic Quran..... so translations should really be very very long commentaries with full explanation of the Arabic.. What I was telling Richard is that he is reading these translations and then giving ignorant arguments...then at the end of everything he thinks he has defeated Islam and the Quran....and he then claims that we are running away....if I am running away from anything...it is Richards ignorance....

          For,

          '' Every time I argue with a knowledgeable person I win, Every time I argue with an ignorant person he defeats me.''

          He just doesn't seem to understand this....I hope you can.....Islam is welcome for anyone to question it and argue... but not through ignorance....you must know what you are arguing before you start to..that is obvious.... The Quran's ideas are very clear....Islam is very clear.... The miracle of Arabic in the Quran is not clear to anyone....only to experts of Arabic who -since the advent of Islam- cannot produce one chapter the likes of the Qurans surahs... The Quran's is not giving just an Arabic miracle.....it is giving Ideas through Arabic...the Ideas are important...the ideas can be understood by anyone....but the Arabic may not....there is no problem with that as the Quran is not here for us to just study Arabic...it wants us to listen to its ideas....

          Thanks.....
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: ''this is how you make people follow your religion eh? ''

          What do you do? you just come in at the end of everything with your comments....your comments deserve a thumbs down....I am not trying to make him follow my religion.... He hates Islam and its ideas..all he wants is for him to be right..and all I am telling him is that he is ignorant....If someone comes with an open heart and not a proud, prejudiced and ignorant heart (and that is the worst thing).....then, I will engage in talks with him.. We don't MAKE people follow Islam....it is up to them...their choice.. Richard has made his choice.. not just about Islam but about religion in general......What is wrong with waiting? we are all waiting for something...we are all dying......someday even Richard will die....someday you will die....someday I will die.....We can only wait and see...Life is to death and death is truth...and we will all find the truth at death..and ONLY Allah knows that day....
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: '' I don't think he hate Islam, he just points out the errors contained in Koran and thus disproving its authenticity from Allah''


          He does not point out anything... He is, as I have explained, very ignorant of Arabic and therefore the Quran....... He is arguing a translation... The translation may be wrong because the Quran is not....ALL his arguments don't apply one bit to the Arabic Quran......

          ''You keep ducking his arguments by saying Arabic is essential to understand Koran. ''

          No, I do not keep ducking....I am tired of arguing with him.....he just doesn't want to understand that he is arguing ignorantly.....he just wants to continue with what he thinks is right...I am not trying to force him to stop, merely pointing out his mistakes...

          ''what is your thought on those Clerics who knew Arabic at a masterly level and issue fatwas once in a while?''

          Who, Bin Laden?? Ibn Baz?? I talk of people like Allama Tabatabai like Allama Tabrasi like Jafar Subhani like Muhammed Baqir Al Sadr and like Avicenna...

          Bin Laden was not an expert on Arabic....nor was he on the Quran...

          ''so when one points out mistake in Koran he automatically becomes hater of Islam.''

          No.. But he must point it out in a knowledgeable way... not ignorantly...no one has pointed out a mistake in the Quran...just vague translations... If you want to understand this misunderstanding then read my comments to Elam on ''Allah deceiving in the Quran'' with other verses in those same comments.... Once someone understands Arabic properly...then no argument is in place....And that is why I am saying that no one has won... In fact, Richard has lost a lot of time.....if he has won these arguments....then he still has the QURAN to argue..which he hasn't due to his absolutely poor understanding of Arabic... He needs to have full understanding of Arabic poetry, full understanding of Arabic Grammar and Sarf, full understanding of Balagha...and much more.....which he doesn't and that is why he is ignorant.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: In fact, if you had read my comments you would have known that i am very much against sticking any Quranic verse on scientific fact...I have clearly said this..and our Shia scholars have also clearly said this.......I have only been replying to claims made by others....

          This universe is nothing....Allah is its creator.....and that is the main thing of the Quran...the main thing of our lives is Allah.... I want to see anyone from the scientists standing against Avicenna and his proofs.... Science is one thing and philosophy is another....they are not in conflict.....Philosophy explains Science and its existence..
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          Jul 3 2011: J Ali “I am Allahs slave...”

          What does that mean? Does it mean that Allah descends from the heavens and whispers in your ear telling you what to do?

          No. It means that before you go to the bathroom you consult the Quran, the “authentic” Hadiths and your Mullahs interpretation of them, which tell you how to go to the bathroom.

          That is the ideology invented by men to enslave you under some mythical Allah.

          When you do some act of kindness is it done out of the goodness of your heart, as many non-Muslims and agnostics and atheists, who you condemn to burn in the eternal fires of Hell, do?

          No you quote some verse in the Quran, which promises you heaven if you do it and hell if you don’t, to do it.

          That is the ideology invented by men to enslave you under some mythical Allah.

          Do you or SR think for yourself about the shape of the Earth or any scientific advance?

          No you spend your time studying the Quran, and when some atheist Nobel Prize winner discovers something by using his brain, you claim that the Quran discovered that 1400 years ago, because it said the sky was red and Allah is all-knowing, wise.

          That is the ideology invented by men to enslave you under some mythical Allah.

          @ Iqbal “It appears to me when science confirms a theory, you all of a sudden proudly announce that it was written 1400 yrs ago in Koran. tomorrow if science proves Earth is not moving around Sun then you would also say it was already mentioned in Koran 1400 yrs ago.”

          “Bin Laden was not an expert on Arabic....nor was he on the Quran...”

          Bin Laden was an Arabic speaker. He quoted the Quran extensively in his Fatwas. Everyone quotes the Quran or the Hadiths to do whatever they want to do, mostly to kill, bully, terrify and subjugate.

          Everyone says this is the correct, “True” Islam, not that one.

          But for none of these people arguing, has the penny dropped, none of them has cottoned on (realised), that the whole thing is a man made farce.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: Richard,

          I will not continue, after this, to argue with you...But let me quickly look at what you say...

          You repeated this ''That is the ideology invented by men to enslave you under some mythical Allah.''

          you mention words like invented and mythical....that makes it obvious that you have a problem with all religions -not just Islam- believing in God, clearly because you are an atheist, and that they are all mythical and man made..

          I have said many times that Islamic concept of God is based on philosophical proof that you, Richard Dawkins and every single Atheist on Earth will never be able to refute.... You never even mention these philosophical proofs given by Muslim philosophers such as Avicenna, Averroes and Mulla Sadra.... It shows that you know nothing about Islam or its beliefs..... Islamic beliefs are based on very logical and complex philosophical proofs that you will never want to understand- because you don't want to. After we prove God without doubt... That he has created everything in existence....Everything is his....why should we not be slaves to him? Can we, after proving philosophically that we completely owe our existence to him, not be slaves to him? Being a slave to Allah is doing everything he orders you to do...not seeing other than Allah in everything...because he has that right as our creator and owner..He does not need our worship, he does not need anything. Rather we need him...We are Allah's and unto him we will be returning..We believe Allah only orders us to do good... that everything he tells us to do is for our own Good... We believe Good is in itself good even before Allah orders us to do it... But for us, after we believe rationally in Allah, Everything good is done to be closer to Allah...Heaven is being close to Allah....Our good deeds are heaven....God's acceptance is heaven....Read about Imam Ali's life and his quotes on God...

          Contd..
        • Jul 3 2011: J Ali,

          How many times are you going to say you are not going to comment again to only comment again within hours?

          What does the Koran say about lying? The moral highground you profess is laughable.
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: I do good deeds because they are good.....but not only because they are good, these good deeds are a bridge between a human and Allah (remember that we have philosophical proof of God's existence and oneness ) ...so that is why we say that if you do good deeds your whole life with no belief in God, your actions are equal to zero....our goal in life is not anything in life, it is something after life...Life is of no worth..Allah is the goal..Good actions are for us to reach God... To know God.... to be a slave to Allah...that is heaven..Purity of the heart is to live everything for Allah... We worship Allah not for heaven or for fear of hell..we worship Allah because he is worthy of worship... Heaven comes as a result of worship. Hell comes as a result of no worship.... our goal is Allah... and that is why it is considered Shirk to worship Allah for heaven and not for Allah...

          ''Do you or SR think for yourself about the shape of the Earth or any scientific advance?''

          I don't know about SR but for me, yes certainly....

          ''No you spend your time studying the Quran, and when some atheist Nobel Prize winner discovers something by using his brain, you claim that the Quran discovered that 1400 years ago''

          I love science(I'm 16 btw) ..our Muslim scientists of the past loved science...Islam wants us to love science..Muslims were great scientists..but not love for itself....Islam wants us to reach something above science,through science and through ourselves, and that is Allah... Science is but a creation of God.. it is beautiful and magnificent...but in itself it is worth nothing without Allah giving it existence and beauty...Allah is the goal of all goals....

          I have said a lot that the Quran is not a book of science...it is a book of guidance...guidance may sometimes be through science...and I am strongly against interpretation of verses scientifically even when clearly there is no match....because the Quran talks of something greater than science and this universe...
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: ''O mankind! you are they who stand in need of Allah, and Allah is He Who is the Self-sufficient, the Praised One.''

          35:15

          ''Say: Consider what is it that is in the heavens and the earth; and signs and warners do not avail a people who would not believe.''

          10:101

          ''And this world's life is naught but a play and an idle sport and certainly the abode of the hereafter is better for those who guard (against evil); do you not then understand?''

          6:39

          ''Allah amplifies and straitens the means of subsistence for whom He pleases; and they rejoice in this world's life, and this world's life is nothing compared with the hereafter but a temporary enjoyment.''

          13:26

          ''And this life of the world is nothing but a sport and a play; and as for the next abode, that most surely is the life-- did they but know!''

          29:64

          ''Know that the life of the world is only play, and idle talk, and pageantry, and boasting among you, and rivalry in respect of wealth and children; as the likeness of vegetation after rain, whereof the growth is pleasing to the husbandman, but afterward it drieth up and thou seest it turning yellow, then it becometh dry and crumbles away.And in the Hereafter there is grievous punishment, and (also) forgiveness from Allah and His good pleasure, whereas the life of the world is but matter of illusion.''

          57:20


          Finally, I recommend that you read what our philosophers and scholars have to say in their books...Read our philosophical proofs which are based on reason alone, by scholars such as Avicenna and M Sadra..the universe isn't just science....why are you throwing philosophy away.... Also read our scholarly books..Visit one of our holy shrines sometime, Visit Imam Ali bin Mosa Al Redha's shrine in Mashhad, Iran..you are welcome in our homes as a guest...read what we believe in from clear, pure sources..Be pure....I wish you the best of luck in your life....and I hope it will be filled with happiness...

          Goodbye.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Reza_shrine
        • J Ali

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          Jul 3 2011: Jason, I said I would not argue....but I am not arguing here...I found it important to COMMENT as an explanation in reply to Richard's last comment.... Maybe because I said ''I will not continue, after this, to argue with you'' you came to understand this..... wrong choice of words I guess... Sorry..

          On the other hand Islam also considers bad suspicion and early judgment of your fellow brethren to be a sin... Good suspicion is a good deed.... e.g. suspecting that your fellow brother is not lying...

          ''O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion; indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another......''

          49:12

          I will not argue, but I may explain and elaborate...
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          Jul 4 2011: J Ali “I am still open to honest questions..”

          Have you had a birthday recently? In science there are great questions and silly questions, but what is an honest question? And what is a dishonest question?

          It seems that any question that acknowledges the "truth" of the Quran etc. but just asks for clarifications is an "honest" question, whereas a question that challenges the truth of your beliefs is a "dishonest" question.

          Example:

          SR – The Proof Quran is from God - because the Quran says the Sun is moving.

          Me – But of course, the Sun can be seen to move around the Earth and set in the Earth. The Quran never once says the Earth moves around the Sun or indeed that the Earth moves at all, whereas it says the Sun moves in an orbit, that it has a setting place in the Earth and that it sets in a muddy spring.

          Can you show me one verse which shows that the Earth moves around the Sun or indeed that the Earth moves at all?

          Now is that an honest question?

          SR “Koran says earth is moving. example:
          http://tanzil.net/#20:53 (earth is moving like a cradle)”

          The Sahih International English translation of that verse reads:

          “[It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out] and inserted therein for you roadways and sent down from the sky, rain and produced thereby categories of various plants.”
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/20:53

          Question: How does that verse in any way show that the Earth moves, leave alone moves around the Sun?

          Is that an honest question?

          Alternatively - My God SR !! That verse indeed shows the Earth is moving !!
          This shows that the Quran 1400 years ago, from the ignorant Arabs of that time, figured out miraculously that the Earth was moving, and it revolved around the Sun.

          How did they figure this out? [Answer (of course we know this) Allah the all-knowing, wise, told them]

          That is an honest question?
        • Jul 4 2011: Richard,
          "When the barbaric Muslim armies conquered and destroyed"
          renaissance was caused by Muslims


          "I know Omar Khayyam better than you. He was no Muslim. "
          !!!!
          he was a great Muslim. All he has is from Koran. His poems are from Koran.

          "Islam discourages knowledge outside of itself."
          100% false. Islam has many rewards and encourages for knowledge and science. Little example: Gaber, Avesina,…

          "If it weren’t for Galileo and Kepler "
          Most of them has root is Muslim scientists.
          Did you know computer was not possible without Kharazmi?
          But also western scientists had valuable tries.


          "People like SR spend their lifetimes"
          How you know my lifetime?

          "your arguments are so childish and patently absurd as to be laughable."
          yes ignorant people usually have such reaction.

          "1. The word is Bed OR Cradle"
          Yes. But mostly it is for cradle and bed OF BABY.
          THEN WHY YOU NOT CONSIDER THE CARDLE WHICH IS MOVING? AND ONLY PICK THE WEAKER MEAN WHICH IS IN YOUR BENEFIT?


          "2. Cradles in New Zealand are not whipped around and around like Earth around the Sun. Is that what is done in Iran?"
          I did not say it is moving around sun. I only say it is a moving bed. This is enough to show that Koran says earth is moving. But you only stick to what yourself want and only say bed. OK. I can not force you accept cradle is moving bed. You are free to deny.

          "http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/20:53"
          why you pick only translates fitting your benefit?
          why not see:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/20:53
          A real researcher considers all and also tries to understand deep meaning of a word then conclude. Anyway مهادا means moving bed mostly for babies.
          Do you disagree cradle is moving?

          "(though we and not Allah make roads). "
          You make by power of Allah.
          It is like that say knife cuts the fruit. Not you!

          "Who in his right mind would interpret that as the Earth moving around the Sun or moving at all?"
          Any one who be honest and accept cradle means moving bed of babies.

          "Stop this nonsense.
        • Jul 4 2011: "Stop this nonsense. "
          Your insist that cradle is not moving is more nonsense. Stop it.

          "None of those verses talk about the Earth moving at all. "
          this is your claim. You not want to accept you are false about moving earth in Koran an try to prove it in any way. Mixing verses. Picking special translates. Befooling ,...

          "And none of them speak of the Earth moving in an orbit around the Sun. "
          I accept this at this time. (now I do not know verse for that). But Koran says earth is moving.

          "On the other hand the Quran talks about the Sun moving in an orbit, it talks about a place where the sun sets, and talks about the sun's resting place."
          oh my God! You again and again repeat same thing without notice or disproving my replies.
          They are different independent verses. Orbit not means around earth. It means sun has a path. Not said around earth. Koran says some one (not Allah) FOUND THAT sun sets in a place. Yes Koran says sun will rich to a resting place. Problem? You are not astronomer.

          "Open your mind and stop lying to yourself SR."
          Open your mind and stop lying to yourself Richard.


          "If the verse is talking about a red sky, it could be talking about the big bang or red giants, but maybe, just maybe, its talking about a red sky?"
          please first prove your claim about Koran saying earth is flat. Then jump to another topic. This is a trick for escaping.

          "Does it mean that Allah descends from the heavens and whispers in your ear telling you what to do? "
          Allah talks trough Koran. Also in sleep dreams (but not to anyone)

          "No you spend your time studying the Quran,"
          do not say what you do not know.


          "He quoted the Quran extensively in his Fatwas."
          oh your beliefs are made by TV. A liar TV.


          "SR – The Proof Quran is from God - because the Quran says the Sun is moving."
          Do not misquote me. I say Koran has thousands of wonder fact and this is only one. Not only this one alone proves. But considering all facts of Koran it proves. What I said in TED are only very few fa
        • Jul 4 2011: "SR – The Proof Quran is from God - because the Quran says."
          Do not misquote me. I say Koran has thousands of wonder fact and this is only one. Not only this one alone proves. But considering all facts of Koran it proves. What I said in TED are only very few facts about Koran. Not all. If some one spend all his life still can not finish learning Koran. Even if by a 1000 years life.

          "The Quran never once says the Earth moves "
          Koran says and I showed you but you not accept. I think an Arabic professional hones (even non-Muslim) is needed to judge here.

          Your repeating same thing without disproving my reply is exactly DOGMA.


          "The Sahih International English translation of that verse reads: "
          translate is for simple reading not for such discusses. Also other translates say cradle. Why you not consider cradle which is a moving bed for babies?

          Also why you not consider other verses I showed you? For example that saying mountains are moving like clouds. You mixt that verse with its previous verse to prove it is about Judgment day. But I said you first should prove they are linked and continuous which you did not care about this reply. And only you say it is obvious for me that verse is for Judgment day! This is prove?
          Also other verse saying earth is like ذلول which is a calm walking camel.
          Also other verse saying earth is کفاتا which had different meaning and you pick meaning in your benefit. But an expert picks meaning according context and other criteria.
          OK you still insist Koran not say earth is moving. I consider this your behaviour nothing but DOGMA.


          "How did they figure this out? [Answer (of course we know this) Allah the all-knowing, wise, told them]"
          If you know my reply before I speak so why you are talking me?
          Do you want I give you my TED password and you write my comments?
          I think you know what I will say in future.
          This is amazing ability. How you got it?
        • Jul 4 2011: Dear Richard,
          please reply this.
          bed has different words in Arabic each are different but all translated bed in English.
          Koran uses both فراش and مهد
          فراش means bed (what people sleep on it at night even Mattress is called فراش)
          مهد means (you say bed I say cradle which is moving bed for baby)
          this is مهد (in that verse مهادا ):

          http://www.up2.ir/image-B9D0_4A6D04C8.jpg

          http://anobanini.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5009&stc=1&d=1286800579

          http://www.iranak.info/Download/DIRDataBase8/632928527080781250_623398_koodak-va-gahvareh.jpg

          why Koran not said فراش in this verse but said فراش in other verses? and why said مهد about earth?
          when Koran uses فراش and مهد in different verses what it means?
          you speak such you seem professional in Arabic. so please answer this.
          I accept مهد (مهادا( means bed also. but it is weaker mean. and main mean is cradle.
          the Arabic Koran is important in research. not translated. translated are not 100% perfect and do not contain all meaning of Arabic word.
          translate is only for simple studying. not for research or for fighting on exact meaning of a Arabic word.
          I wonder why you insist on what you do not know perfect.
          I do not know what is your prophecy. (if you have any. you seem a jobless man filling you time and your life with typing same thing again and again in ted without first disproving replies. I do not know what you are really looking for in ted).
          but if you have any prophecy I prefer not argue in your prophecy which I am ignorant in your prophecy and I prefer to accept word of a professional and not argue it before I really study and know what I want to say perfect.
        • thumb
          Jul 4 2011: "renaissance was caused by Muslims"

          SR you constantly amaze me with your ignorance. All you seem to know are the fairy tales of your religion. Please educate yourself about the Renaissance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance#Origins

          SR "he [Omar Khayyam] was a great Muslim."

          When once you hear the roses are in bloom,
          Then is the time, my love, to pour the wine;
          Houris and palaces and Heaven and Hell-
          These are but fairy-tales, forget them all.
          Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayy%C3%A1m#Views_on_religion

          "Islam discourages knowledge outside of itself."

          SR "100% false."

          No true. Little example SR, the students from your country who are running away to the west, the state of science in Islamic states, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan.

          "Did you know computer was not possible without Kharazmi?"

          I was not taught Muslim fairy tales.

          "Indian mathematician Brahmagupta gave the first explanation of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system and the use of zero as both a placeholder and a decimal digit. Approximately around the year 825, Persian mathematician Al-Khwarizmi wrote a book, On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals, .. principally responsible for the diffusion of the Indian system of numeration in the Middle East and then Europe."

          "Around the 3rd century BC, Indian mathematician Pingala discovered the binary numeral system...still used today in all modern computers"

          Then Leibnitz and then Boole, and the first computer Alan Turing. All that Khwarizmi did was facilitate the spread of the Hindu decimals to the west. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computer_science

          SR "How you know my lifetime?"

          I see your lifetime over here spouting Islam and the Quran. I see your ignorance of everything else.

          "The Quran never once says the Earth moves " true.

          Your translation "He who appointed the earth to be a cradle for you, and therein threaded roads for you,.."

          Only a fool would say that means the Earth is movin
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jul 4 2011: ''Have you had a birthday recently?''

          Yes. thanks! That was a great question btw...
        • Jul 4 2011: "Please educate yourself about the Renaissance. "
          also you. please open your eyes and read:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe
          "Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe were numerous, affecting such varied areas as art, architecture, medicine, agriculture, music, language, education, law, and technology. "
          the books of Muslim scientists were heavily translated and it was base for Renaissance. Most of today techs have root in works of Muslims scientists.

          Also read:
          ***The Twelfth Century Renaissance: contact with Islamic science and learning awakened dormant European mental activity.
          http://www.medievalhistory.net/scientia.htm


          "SR "he [Omar Khayyam] was a great Muslim.""
          you read poems apparently. But do you know what means Khayyam by wine?
          not all understand his poems.
          The wine is "knowing God"
          When a Muslim reaches to high levels of knowing God that knowledge make them drunk . But not from alcohol. From enjoying of being near of God. Nearing to God is by high knowledge of God.
          They never drink one drop of alcohol.
          First understand meaning of poems then quote them.
          Each poem of them is from one verse of Koran. But in poem language.
          I think this is 3th time you say this about Khayyam and I before showed your poems from him showing mean of wine and proving he was Muslim. But you like always again and again repeat with no notice to my replies.

          You do not know Khayyam.

          ""Islam discourages knowledge outside of itself."

          SR "100% false."
          Koran and prophet saying has many many encourages to knowledge.
          few of them:
          http://www.ted.com/profiles/bio/id/892832
          So what are so many Muslim scientists in history?
          please

          "Little example SR, the students"
          yes but it is not as large as liar media make it big. Please compare it with England. Iran has very high number of students and education in Iran is free.
          Also Iranians want to catch knowledge of other countries.
        • Jul 4 2011: "I was not taught Muslim fairy tales."
          computer and Internet is based on works of:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%E1%B8%A5ammad_ibn_M%C5%ABs%C4%81_al-Khw%C4%81rizm%C4%AB

          "
          According to a prominent German journalist, Internet infrastructure based on the findings Khwarizmi, the Muslim scholar and founder of the science of algebra is established.

          The report quoted Alshrvq Aytna, Wolfgang Gunter Lrsh, editor of the German newspaper Frankfurter Lgmaynh Tsaytvng, said if the theories and concepts raised by a Muslim scholar, Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa Khwarizmi was not in today's world of computers and the Internet did not know.

          Kharazmi Persian astronomer and mathematician of great scientists who called him the father of algebra.

          According to the report, some prominent figures in science, mathematics, computer science as the intellectual father of the famous scientist.

          Lrsh said Khwarizmi's works translated into Latin in medieval Europe, new ideas and helped to achieve their current accounts in the math and science."

          http://www.fundacionbankinter.org/system/documents/8193/original/Chapter_3_Understanding_the_three_basic_layers.pdf

          "I see your lifetime over here spouting Islam and the Quran. "
          this is only a small part of my life.

          "Only a fool would say that means the Earth is movin"
          I am sorry for you. I am talking you rational and respectful. And showing you enough proof and evidence. And you reply according to your personality. It is usual when you can not reply my by proof.
        • thumb
          Jul 4 2011: SR
          1. You suffer from confirmation bias. You will see a splotch of ink and it will appear to you as miracle of Islam.

          2. Islam permits lying (Taqiyya) to deceive the enemy (non-Muslims) during war. According to Islam, Islam is in a constant state of war with Dar al Harab – the non-Muslim world and hence it is not sin to lie to us.

          3. Lying is the greatest sin in Science.

          4. The article you referred to Re: “Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe” contains a warning “This article may misquote or misrepresent many of its sources. Please see the cleanup page for more information.”

          5. The cleanup page says “A major cleanup is ongoing relating to Jagged 85 (talk • contribs) who has made over 63,000 article edits since 2005. It has been found that many edits involve the undue promotion of Islamic and other non-European scholarship and achievements. In addition, there has been a severe misuse of sources: misrepresenting what a source has asserted; reporting only one side from a source; quoting out of context; inventing claims using a source related to the topic but which does not verify the claim.”

          6. “With contributions to over 8,100 separate articles, it is unlikely that all of Jagged 85's edits will ever be fixed. And even if they were, these Wikipedia articles have already been reproduced all over the net by other sites which use Wikipedia as a source.”

          7. “Besides Jagged 85, other problems at Wikipedia include the use of some very suspect and pro-Islamic secondary sources, such as Paul Vallely's "How Islamic inventors changed the world", which is used as a source to validate false (and often absurd)[1] claims of Islamic inventions in over twenty separate articles,[2] and the use of a fraudulent translation of Muhammad's 'Farewell Sermon', along with a second version, without a primary source. Attempts to add the authentic version taken from al-Tabari, Vol IX, next to the other two at Wikipedia, were met with resistance and was ultimately unsuccessful.”
        • thumb
          Jul 4 2011: 8. “..this and the other examples cited above, highlight the constant problems that Wikipedia faces for Islam related articles.”

          9. Your Wikipedia link to Khwarizmi says “Another epithet given to him by al-Ṭabarī, "al-Majūsī," would seem to indicate that he was an adherent of the old Zoroastrian religion.”

          Of course Muslims will claim he was a Muslim.

          In any case the article does NOT say that computers would not be possible but for him. That is ridiculous.

          The quote you have given is not from the article but “a prominent German journalist”. Journalists are not sources of original “knowledge”.

          9. SR “do you know what means Khayyam by wine?.. "knowing God"

          I see and what did he mean by “Houris and palaces and Heaven and Hell- These are but fairy-tales, forget them all”?

          That is not the only verse, almost every verse he mocks Islam. For example:

          “And that inverted Bowl they call the Sky,
          Whereunder crawling coop'd we live and die,
          Lift not your hands to It for help--for It
          Moves as impotently as you or I.”

          “Each poem of them is from one verse of Koran. But in poem language.”

          Khayyam was a smart guy. He well knew the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death.

          Your “proof” that the Quran says the Earth is moving:-

          “He who appointed the earth to be a cradle for you, and therein threaded roads for you, and sent down water out of heaven, and therewith We have brought forth divers kinds of plants.”
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/20:53

          Yeah right!
        • Jul 5 2011: Iqbal?
          "where did your role model get his idea. Your role model "
          he had many references including Indian. So what? You want to get tax for Indian references? Indian scientists did not use any Iranian reference? This is off topic.
          Any scientist uses past works and develops science.
          He is not my role model. He is one example of thousands.
          Only in medicine there is at least 5000 famous book like book of "Canon of medicine" of Avecina from old Iranian scientists.

          What you want to prove?
          Indian scientists? OK I already accept. I am not enemy of Indian scientists.

          Richard,
          "1. You suffer from confirmation bias. You will see a splotch of ink and it will appear to you as miracle of Islam."
          I said only one example of thousands. Anyway this is off tioc. You can start new topic for it.

          "Islam is in a constant state of war "
          this not allow lie. Lie is allowed in when a Muslim captured in battle war. Not always as you say.

          "Please see the cleanup page for more information.”"
          yes. but this not change the matter. There are many valid references for huge translation of Islamic books. I am happy for this. Spreading knowledge is always good.
          Also you know the power of church and pressure on scientists like guallilo.
          What destroyed power of church and pressure on sciense? Islam made fought curch and made situation ready for runessance.
          Anyway this is off topic.

          "The cleanup page says"
          OK. but this is only for clue. If you interested start new topic. Many refrences exist. And long list of translated books.

          I am not fan of Jagged 85 but this not change matter.
          You also use link of wiki.

          "constant problems that Wikipedia faces for Islam related articles"
          It is problem of western users of wiki with Islam. Not wiki itself.


          "would seem to indicate that he was an adherent of the old Zoroastrian religion.” "
          yes seem. anyway Iranians before Islam were Zoroastrian. Perhaps his fathers was. But he himself is famous Muslim.

          "In any case the article does NOT say that computers would
        • Jul 5 2011: "In any case the article does NOT say that computers would not be possible but for him"
          his science specially algebra had a great contribution in computer.
          the word "algorithm" which is used in logic of any computer is the western word from name of this scientist?
          Do you know a computer without algorithm?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra

          "“a prominent German journalist”."
          He is not only a journalist. He is specialist in Islamic history also.

          "I see and what did he mean b “Houris and palaces and Heaven and Hell- These are but fairy-tales, forget them all”? "
          you should not take them literally. Please write Persian poem to I reply you. I do not understand well in English. I think it means do not pray God for heaven but pray God for only Love of God and leave low level rewards like houri. God itself is best reward.

          "That is not the only verse, almost every verse he mocks Islam."
          Agree. But not take them literally. Write me in Persian to I explain the meaning of poem. They are all metaphor .

          "Khayyam was a smart guy. He well knew the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death."
          Yes all know this. So what? Do you have any prove he was apostasy?
          This is off topic. Please start new topic for poems.

          "Your “proof” that the Quran says the Earth is moving:-"
          that translate alone was not my proof.difference of فراش & مهد was also in my proof.
          I meant not pick a translate fitting your benefit and consider all translates. also translations are not suitable for research. and a Koran researcher should know Arabic. Arabic is much more complex to be understood by translate.

          Iqbal,
          "S.R, so i hear you are liars."
          Why I am liar?!
          Because Muslims translated 2 Indian book?
          what is the relation?!!
          I do not remember I said Muslims did not translate 2 Indian books.

          why you think I have problem with Indian scientists?
          All Scientists use other references and develop science.
          I love all people of knowledge and science.
          All peoples are beholden to all scientists and teachers.
        • Jul 5 2011: Richard,
          I agree Einstein,
          but calling others stupid is easy. but some times we are stupid that think others are stupid.
          anyway if you have any proof Khayyam was apostasy I happy to see it.
          also I have many proof he was a great Muslim.
          and poems should not be taken literally.
          if he really was apostasy and so much brave to declare his apostasy in his poems so a simple question:
          why he was not killed?
          this is contradiction.
          one time you say he was not Muslim and your proof is his poems.
          one time you say he was smart guy. He well knew the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death.
          so if he was smart why so clear say in poems he drink wine ,....?
          if he was afraid being killed Indeed he did not make such poems.
          all Iranians know what wine means in his poems. and no one wanted to kill a poet for such poems.
          did you know:?
          Khayyam had both Arabic and Persian poems.
          Khayyam was called: Imam of Khorasan, philosopher, Guide of God
          Khayyam was a follower of Avesina in philosophy
          Khayyam translated one of the famous speeches of Avesina in oneness of God.
          Khayyam was a Islamic leader (marja) (who knows the sharia laws perfect and people ask him)
          Sufi people of his time considered Khayyam a Sufi.
          now his tomb is a famous place in Iran and people meet there. (if he was known as apostasy his tomb would be destroyed until now)

          http://tanzil.net/#57:23
          yesterday passed, do not remember it
          tomorrow that has not come yet do not shout
          do not build on not came and past
          be happy the moment and do not waste time.

          http://tanzil.net/#25:6
          http://tanzil.net/#86:9
          the eternal secrets not you know not me
          and this puzzle saying not you know not me
          the talk of me and you is from behind curtain
          when curtain falls not me remain not you

          http://tanzil.net/#74:38
          http://tanzil.net/#52:21
          if I am drunk from wine of Moghan
          if I am infidel or pagan or ilolater
          each group has guess about me
          I am what I am by myself
        • Jul 5 2011: http://tanzil.net/#14:32
          who made sky and earth and orbits
          much pain made on sad heart
          made many lips like ruby and hairs like musk
          in the drum of earth and trick of soil

          Khayyam always reminds death that this is what Prophet and God sayd:
          "increase remembrance of death"
          prophet

          http://tanzil.net/#29:57
          http://tanzil.net/#6:61

          about human:
          http://tanzil.net/#23:14
          http://tanzil.net/#2:28
          there is a cup that creation wisdom made it
          hundred kiss of love made on his brow
          the potter universe such a beautiful cup
          makes and again hits it on land

          some groups of Muslims did not understand philosophy and said philosophers are nonbelievers and pagan. and phylosophist had a special meaning. they called Khayyam phylosophist.
          Khayyam said:
          the enemy said in false that I am phylosophist
          God knows I am not what he said
          دشمن به غلط گفت که من فلسفیم
          ایزد داند که آنچه او گفـت نیم
          لیکن چو در این غم آشیان آمده‌ام
          آخر کم از آنکه من بدانم که کیم
          http://tanzil.net/#40:19

          other poem defining metaphors by Khayyam himself:
          چندانکه نگاه می کنم هر سویی
          در باغ روان است ز کوثر جویی
          صحرا چو بهشت است ز کوثر کم گوی
          بنشین به بهشت با بهشتی رویی

          translate is something like this:
          when I look around
          in garden is a river from Kowsar (a special pool in Heaven)
          Deseret is like Heaven, say less about Heaven
          sit in Heaven with a Houri

          this poem says there is no need to wait for death to enjoy Heaven. right now you can feel they enjoys of heaven by having close relation to God.
          for example here Khayyam says I already see the Heaven every where.
          if you be a friend of God your spiritual eye opens and you see Heaven around yourself already before death.

          considering this then read this:
          Some for the Glories of This World; and some
          Sigh for the Prophet's Paradise to come;
          Ah, take the Cash, and let the Promise go,
          Nor heed the Rumble of a distant Drum!

          again and again:
          do not take Khayyam poems literally. they are metaphor.
          people who want to justify drinking wine (even some Muslims) abuse Khayyam
        • thumb
          Jul 5 2011: Dear SR I was just generally reflecting on the wisdom and observation of Einstein. Not any reflection on you.

          "why he was not killed?"

          Because he was much smarter than the Clerics of his time who would have killed him. For example he convinced them that when he talked about wine, he was talking about "knowing God" and when he said “Houris and palaces and Heaven and Hell- These are but fairy-tales, forget them all” he said it meant - do not pray God for heaven but pray God for only Love of God.

          And the Clerics of his time believed him. But for even the slightly intelligent his message was clear. I have his entire Rubaiyat.

          PS None of those verses remotely matches those of the Quran.

          Quran "And those who believed and whose descendants followed them in faith - We will join with them their descendants, and We will not deprive them of anything of their deeds. Every person, for what he earned, is retained."

          Khayyam "if I am drunk from wine of Moghan
          if I am infidel or pagan or ilolater
          each group has guess about me
          I am what I am by myself"

          Those people who he convinced were not very intelligent.

          "when curtain falls not me remain not you" No heaven no hell

          "One thing I know that time flies
          One thing is true the rest is lies
          A rose that once has bloomed
          Forever dies"

          Iqbal - remove one sentence from your post. Be wise. There are things you cannot say.

          Also SR Avicenna was no doubt a very intelligent man and a great scientist before his time, but he was not infallible. For example he said that the planets shone with their own light and he based that on the Quran. Also his science was advanced for that time, but doesnt compare with modern science.

          The same with Khwarizmi. Khwarizmi may not have been a Muslim and Islam had nothing to do with the achievements of these people.

          They achieved what they did despite Islam not because of it. What Islam is doing to your country is very apparent to everyone and that is what it has been doing to people since its birth
        • Jul 5 2011: "Dear SR I was just generally reflecting on the wisdom and observation of Einstein. Not any reflection on you."
          sorry for my misunderstanding about you. I apologize you.

          "Because he was much smarter than the Clerics of his time who would have killed him. For example he convinced them that when he talked about wine, he was talking about "knowing God"..."
          OK this is welcomed as a hypothesis. I hope you have enough proof for your hypothesis.

          yes Avicenna Khwarizmi Khayyam Hafiz Rumi and thousands other which are not famous in west All were great and Intelligent Humans. and no one said they were infallible. this is clear. they should be compared to their own time.
          also Einstein was not infallible.

          "Also his science was advanced for that time, but doesnt compare with modern science."
          I disagree this. the Avesina knowledge is still up to date. many drugs which have secret formula are made from his books. companies does not buzz this but they use Avesina formulas and sell them you at high price.

          "They achieved what they did despite Islam not because of it. "
          disagree. just show me some like them in Iran before Islam enter Iran.
          if no Islam they did not exist. Islam encourages knowledge and science very much. if 8 years Iran-Iraq war that destroyed Iran was not imposed to Iran and if Iran was not under sanction and pressure by world then I showed you thousands of Avesina to you today.
          today Iran is under pressure of world/sanctions/UN/US/Israel/media/TV/Hollywood/Internet/war/terror of Iranian scientists and many more pressure. no bank in world accept any transaction to or from Iran and many more problems. Iran is still building the destroys of Iran-Iraq war. the war between two Muslim country made by US and supported by near all countries.
          in such consolidation how people can be free to pay attention to science and knowledge?
          in such sanctions and economic problems people are working for food and min. life but hope to God and stand all pressures because of God
        • thumb
          Jul 5 2011: SR your comprehension is not very good.

          All those verses you have quoted are mocking God and the empty promises of heaven and threats of hell.

          "sit in Heaven with a Houri" does not mean "right now you can feel they enjoys of heaven by having close relation to God." It means that be in the company of a good liberated woman and you will be in real heaven, not the fictional heaven invented by Muhammad.

          PS also reading your passages about the Quran I came across this:

          "And He subjected for you the sun and the moon, continuous [in orbit], and subjected for you the night and the day."

          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/14:33

          Clearly talking about the orbit of the sun about the Earth, you have to be blind or totally in denial not to see that.
        • Jul 6 2011: Richard,
          "All those verses you have quoted are mocking God and the empty promises of heaven and threats of hell."
          please reconsider.

          ""sit in Heaven with a Houri" does not mean"
          1- some Muslims right now before death can see Heaven around themselves and can see Hell around some people when they are walking but that people themselves do not see. (not imaginary or metaphor. they really see)
          such believers have a two dimensional vision they see both universe at same time.
          like people who have NDE visions. but such believers always see other universe (Heaven,...) for example: http://goo.gl/f47ZC

          2- I translated بهشتي رويي to Houri. but now I see it was not a perfect translate. let explain that poem detail:
          if you want to understand this poem well first you should know Kausar well:
          please read this about kausar http://goo.gl/hoxQn
          Kausar generally means all benefits and heritage of Muhammad (PBUH) including his large children (I am his children also) today and also the knowledge left from him and the scientists trained in Islam and any kind of benefit left after prophet.

          2- at Judgement day there is no sun nor light nor water and people seek little water to drink. and the only one has water is Muhammad (PBUH) which has a large pool of drinking water and there are guards that limit nonbelievers from cumming near Kausar pool.
          and prophet drinks water to his followers and believers.
          the water of Kausar is a reward for learning knowledge of prophet and following him.
          Kausar is an unlimited pool of absolute Knowledge from God in this world and water in Judgement day.

          when Kayyam says
          چندانکه نگاه می کنم هر سویی
          when I look around
          در باغ روان است ز کوثر جویی
          in garden [=world, which has many rivers (different channels of knowledge)] flows a river [one source of knowledge like a book or a speaker who is a great follower of prophet which has knowledge from prophet like Avesina or...] from kausar [a river from pool of knowledge of prophet]
        • Jul 6 2011: صحرا چو بهشت است ز کوثر کم گوی
          desert [world] is like Heaven [because if you follow knowledge of prophet you are already in Heaven. (Heaven already exist only you should decide to be in it)] do not talk about Kausar [instead of talking work and learn knowledge and do deeds that you can have Kausar]
          بنشین به بهشت با بهشتی رویی
          sit in Heaven [already you can be in heaven by learning knowledge from one river of Kowsar] with a human who has Heavenly face [who has knowledge of prophet]

          بهشتی رویی means who his face is like face of who are in Heaven
          بهشتی رویی is not necessarily Houri
          بهشتی means heavenly
          رویی means face
          بهشتی رویی means heavenly faced. means who is worthy to be in Heaven. while it can mean Houri but according to context and saying "I already see a river from Kausar" [can be the teacher of Khayyam which was Avesina or other source of knowledge of prophet (Kausar)] heavenly faced is a human who is source of knowledge of prophet.

          "PS also reading your passages about the Quran I came across this:"
          please show me "orbit" in Arabic text.
          دَائِبَيْنِ ۖ means moving very exact and preplanned in a path. but it does not say about shape of path. (circular or other)

          Dear Iqbal,
          I love you and I am no hurt from you.

          "You keep talking about Avicenna & company endlessly. what is your point?"
          1- Avesina is only one example of thousands of Islamic scholars
          2- only Avesina and few other are known and famous in world but many many more exist
          3- it you study about Avesina and his life and history about him you see he was a little student of Islam and prophet Muhammad (PBUH) all they had was from prophet and Koran.
          they have many many sayings about prophet and Koran. there is no doubt all they had was from Islam. Avesina said:
          "whenever I had a scientific problem I did a pray and asked God and God sent the solution to my mind after pray to God"
          I mean western people do not know Islam and only know few Islamic scholars. I say all they had was from Koran and Islam
        • Jul 6 2011: Dear Iqbal,
          "SR, I'm sure you find the above discovery mentioned in Koran 1400 years ago. "
          yes Koran says the story of some people in history who had ages even more than 1000.
          so this means age of 1000 or more is possible.
          http://tanzil.net/#29:14

          but remember Koran has a clear rule for humans:
          http://tanzil.net/#29:57
          there is no exception for humans.

          کل means all with no exception.

          WHAT IS COMING IS NEAR
        • thumb
          Jul 6 2011: SR I have proven that the Quran is not from God but a product of the Arabs 1400 years ago, beyond reasonable doubt, to any impartial reader.

          Anyone can read and judge for themselves.

          I will no longer be taking part in this discussion.

          I have learned somethings from you too, so thank you for that. Iran has produced Omar Khayyam and it has also produced you.

          Alike for those who for TO-DAY prepare,
          And those that after some TO-MORROW stare,
          A Muezzin from the Tower of Darkness cries
          "Fools ! your Reward is neither Here nor There!'
        • Jul 6 2011: Dear Friend Richard,

          "Anyone can read and judge for themselves."
          agree
          http://tanzil.net/#2:256


          have a nice life and a nice death!

          you are welcomed to my home if you decided to travel Iran.
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jul 6 2011: ''SR I have proven that the Quran is not from God but a product of the Arabs 1400 years ago, beyond reasonable doubt, to any impartial reader.''

          ''O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allah. believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.''

          4:170

          ''And could you see when they are made to stand before their Lord. He will say: Is not this the truth? They will say: Yea! by our Lord. He will say: Taste then the chastisement because you disbelieved.''

          6:30

          ''We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them save with truth, and lo! the Hour is surely coming. So forgive, (O Muhammad), with a gracious forgiveness.''

          15:85


          ''With truth have We sent it down, and with truth hath it descended. And We have sent thee as naught else save a bearer of good tidings and a warner.''

          17:105
        • Jul 7 2011: "I say all they had was from Vedas and Hinduism."
          this is off topic here. please start new topic on Vedas and Hinduism to talk them.

          "In India there are some ascetic who lived for more than 500 years. "
          also in Iran some non-ascetic lived more than 300. I not heard for more than 350 still

          Yeap no one knows about death. only Islam has knowledge about tasting death.

          You better talk to a kid SR. I 'm not a kid."
          better first show only one who could break this law of Koran then say such things.

          Richard,
          "He doesnt know a few things, like the sun does not move around the Earth or set in it, where the sperm comes from, etc etc."
          I think you will repeat same thing even until your last seconds of life. even after death at judgement day! how much I type comments was wasted

          "I shall come when I can see your women walking on the streets with their heads held high,"
          already their head us held up.

          "without their faces covered"
          already their face is not covered. I think you think Iran is Afghanistan. covering face is not Islamic rule. its personal prefer.

          "or a head scarf obscuring their lovely hair."
          Muslim woman is special for her husband. not like western or New Zealand women and girls that are shared for all men to enjoy their beauty. consider what you say also about your sister and mother.

          "When you treat all your citizens equally."
          already is

          "When Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians are not considered half citizens."
          already are not. they have parliament member. which country is like this?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

          "When their testimony in court, is not equivalent to half that of a Muslim man. When the testimony of their women is not worth 1/4 that of a Muslim man."
          this is true. but first you should understand it then critique.

          "6,000 years and it seems the average human has learned little since then."
          irrelevant. many things is old but true.

          thanks for advice.
          not be sure about death.
        • Jul 9 2011: it is miracle in view of Arab poets. ask one of them.
          also it is for 1400 years ago and still has no error of any kind.
          also it is very beautiful in musical sound and poem and also in meanings. please hear to some recitations fro here:of Koran.
          for example "abdul basit" is one famous reader (reciter) of Koran. people love to sit hours and only hear to him reciting Koran. it is more beautiful than any singing.
          for example:
          www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuO6BkfCQmA
    • Jun 29 2011: "Again NEVER ONCE does the Quran ever say the Earth is moving. Because then again it APPEARS to be still."

      Koran says earth is moving. example:
      http://tanzil.net/#77:25 (earth is moving like birth with tight wings and moving fast)
      http://tanzil.net/#27:88 (earth is moving like clouds)
      http://tanzil.net/#20:53 (earth is moving like a cradle)
      http://tanzil.net/#67:15 (earth is moving like a docile camel/animal walking calm)

      "I am seeking the truth. Why do you say that I am not?"
      because you do not accept your mistakes honestly and insist on your dogma against Koran.

      "Is your definition of truth that the Quran is from God? "
      truth is defined by wisdom and accepting rational arguments even is not in your benefit.

      'Is your claim Quran is from God a HYPOTHESIS or an AXIOM?"
      hypo

      "We have accept or reject the hypothesis according to the evidence."
      I doubt the option of accepting Koran is from God exist in your mind. it seems your mind only has one unchangeable option and the option of Koran is disabled. please first activate it.

      "only taken the translations of the expert scholars "
      oh! you call biased anti-Islam who only say lie the expert scholars!!!
      why you not use valid references like www.al-islam.org or www.makarem.ir?
      your references show your level of honesty. you use links of un-honest enemies of Koran for knowing Koran!
      it is like I go and ask about Evolution from a creationist who is not honest and do not know Evolution and say any lie about Evolution.

      "If the translations are wrong then "
      translation are not wrong. to be honest Koran is very hard to translate (actually impossible) and translators did their best but still there is errors and you should not insist on a poor translate.

      "it is for you to tell me the correct translations of that verse"
      did you ask me honestly before you make your claims? or did you check translations from different Arabic references?
      you only insist and not accept my correct translate.
      I accept REAL and VALID evidence.
      • thumb
        Jun 29 2011: SR "I doubt the option of accepting Koran is from God exist in your mind."

        Yes it does. But it has a very small probability not because of belief but based on evidence.

        Tell me honestly does the option of rejecting Koran is from God exist in your mind? Honestly please.

        Remember if only one evidence exists then the hypothesis has to be rejected.

        Remember also we are dealing with probabilities. What is the verse probably talking about? A red sky which is the simple thing it seems to be saying or the Sun turning into a Red Giant 4 billion years from now? Both could be true, but what is far more likely or probable?

        SR "I accept REAL and VALID evidence" but I am now giving translations only from your links - do you not accept even those?

        Again you have repeated "Koran says earth is moving. example:
        http://tanzil.net/#77:25 (earth is moving like birth with tight wings and moving fast)
        http://tanzil.net/#27:88 (earth is moving like clouds)
        http://tanzil.net/#20:53 (earth is moving like a cradle)
        http://tanzil.net/#67:15 (earth is moving like a docile camel/animal walking calm)"

        NONE of those verses say the Earth is MOVING. Please refer to the translations from your source and links I have shown you above. I am not going to repeat myself.

        Please show me the translation where they say the Earth is moving.

        SR "I ask you do not interpret Koran as you like and do not make story about sun and resting at night."

        I am not interpreting the Quran AS I LIKE! I am taking the translation from YOUR source:

        "And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point." Quran 36:37

        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/36:38

        Other translations
        Pickthall "And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him."
        http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslations.asp?Display=yes&SoraNo=36&Ayah=38&toAyah=38&Language=2&LanguageID=2&TranslationBook=3

        Royal Aal Al-Bayat Institute, Jordan "And the sun [which] runs to its resting-place."
        http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslations.asp?Display=yes&SoraNo=36&A
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jun 29 2011: Richard, the verse 27:88 is clearly saying that the mountains are moving the movement of clouds.....

          I can explain clearly all of your misconceptions about the Quran. I can really understand why you would think that this or that particular verse is a mistake by the Quran. But first, you must realize that you do not know something which is absolutely vital in understanding the Quran: Arabic.

          So, your claims have zero value and they are just a waste of time. You cannot continue reading translations and then making conclusion based on them. That is why when our scholars are asked about the permissibility of translations, they say that it is permissible, but they also say that it is impossible to translate the Arabic Quran into another language, because no language can encompass what the Quran is saying. I implore you to understand this.
        • Jun 30 2011: "Tell me honestly does the option of rejecting Koran is from God exist in your mind? Honestly please."
          exist but it is epsilon. please do not prejudice. it is because thousands of proofs and wondering facts about Koran and is not for dogma. while I do not see even one proof against Koran.

          "Remember if only one evidence exists then the hypothesis has to be rejected."
          agree. but all are doubt not rigid evidence.

          "Remember also we are dealing with probabilities."
          I am not. I only accept certain evidence.

          about red giant lets talk after earth. one by one.

          "NONE of those verses say the Earth is MOVING. "
          I am sorry for you. I ask you:
          1- read different translations of them and try to have a deep understand of the words in verses claimed to show meaning of moving earth.
          2- please write your own translate of them based on your research
          3- honestly judge they 4 verse MEAN (not strictly saying earth is moving) earth is moving or not?

          "I am not interpreting the Quran AS I LIKE!"
          yes Koran says sun is going to a rest place OK.
          but you said Koran says:
          1-you said sun rests EVERY NIGHT
          2-sun has has CIRCULAR ORBIT
          by story I mean above 2 item.
        • thumb
          Jun 30 2011: J Ali/SR: "But first, you must realize that you do not know something which is absolutely vital in understanding the Quran: Arabic."

          Can't you see what you are saying? This is a business. Man-made. Languages are mankind's invention. You are buying it. I'm not buying it.
          (Life and all of it's vast richness and wonder is here for you to explore and understand. Put down the holy books.... To quote a well-know business slogan: Just do it.)
      • thumb
        Jun 30 2011: Hi J Ali verse 27:88 says “And you see the mountains, thinking them rigid, while they will pass as the passing of clouds. [It is] the work of Allah, who perfected all things. Indeed, He is Acquainted with that which you do.”

        Clearly he is talking of the mountains and the mountains alone. He is also talking about the future tense. "they WILL PASS", not something that is happening on a regular basis every day.

        There is no passage in the Quran saying the Earth is moving equivalent to the one that says the Sun and the Moon are swimming in their orbits.

        To the unbiased reader the Quranic view is of a still, flat Earth with the Sun rising from it in the East and setting on it in the west. ("the sun [which] runs to its resting-place")

        I heard your contention that you cannot understand the Quran unless you know Arabic, but I have the following objections to that:

        1. Arabic is a language just like any other and so should be open to translation like any other language.

        2. If you claim Arabic cannot be translated into any other language, how can any non-Arabic speaker learn the language? It would have no equivalent in any other language

        3. If it is true that Arabic has no equivalent in any other language, why would Allah allegedly have chosen to communicate his alleged one true religion for all men in the only language that cannot be understood by all men – including most Muslims, since most Muslims do not speak Arabic?

        4. How is it that my understanding of the Quran, through English translations, is the same as Bin Laden’s on Jihad or Sheik Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz, the former Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia on the shape of the Earth?

        Sheik Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz issued a fatwa saying the Earth was flat in 1993.

        Both of them were devout Muslims, believed implicitly in the Quran, knew the Quran thoroughly, AND WERE ARABIC SPEAKERS!
        • Jun 30 2011: "they will pass"
          Dear friend. Koran says تمر . if you know little Arabic grammar it means IS passING.
          WILL is false translate.
          please first check different languages then conclude and do not conclude quick.
          for example please see:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.asad/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/27:88
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sarwar/27:88

          will pass is clearly false translate according to Arabic grammar and I wonder why they translated will pass. [ I think they taught by themselves: mountains are not moving! they are fixed. why Koran says they are moving?! lets translate will pass to stupid people do not befool Koran]

          "There is no passage in the Quran saying the Earth is moving"
          I showed you 4 verse. please research them.

          "To the unbiased reader the Quranic view is of a still, flat Earth"
          honest reader considers all translates and tries some in Arabic dics and then decides.

          "Arabic is a language just like any other"
          no no no. Arabic is amazing. no language like it.

          "how can any non-Arabic speaker learn the language?"
          for example:
          http://salamstudios.com/
          also online resources are available.
          this is nice:
          Quranic Arabic Corpus, an annotated linguistic resource which shows the Arabic grammar, syntax and morphology for each word in the Holy Quran.
          from:
          Language Research Group
          University of Leeds
          http://corpus.quran.com/

          but it is open source and newborn like wiki and has errors but good for learning Arabic.

          "only language that cannot be understood by all men "
          who said can not? it can but not simply by looking first translate. it needs more research.

          "since most Muslims do not speak Arabic?"
          Any Muslim Arab or non-Arab knows at least some Arabic. some non-Arab Muslims know Arabic better than Arabs for knowing Koran well and deep.
        • Jun 30 2011: about Bin Ladan:
          he is not Muslim. Alghaede was trained and militarized and supported with US to destroy true Islam. the 11 sep is all scenario of Zeonism to justify attack to Iraq and Afghanistan and killing millions of true Muslims.

          fatwa saying Earth flat:
          1- many of them are Courtier and their God is money. please do not judge about Islam by Muslims. many of Muslims are enemies of God.
          God said in Koran:
          http://tanzil.net/#4:136
          O believers! believe. why should a believer believe again? it means many believers are liars and in fact non-believers. they believe only in money.
          2- fatwa is like a doctor who decide on surgery. some times a doctor makes a mistake decisions but it is unintentional.
          Islam says:
          Muslims should research enough in Koran and Islam resources to find the detailed laws of every day needs OR a Muslim who has not such time should follow the best professional in Islamic knowledge he can find.
          who makes a fatwa is not God and perhaps have some errors. but a REAL BELIEVER Islamic marja (top specialist in Islamic knowledge like Ayatollah Makarem http://english.makarem.ir/biography/ ) usually has no error or very few cases of NOT PERFECT fatwa (not error).
          false fatwa are from Courtier religious leaders (Imam) and ignorant Muslims follow them.
          http://mannam.persiangig.com/11.jpg
          http://shia-news.com/files/fa/news/1389/1/11/4900_542.jpg
          please read my comments for Eduard here:
          http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html
          Imam is a general word and applies to different persons.
          the main meaning of Imam is: true successors of prophet:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_the_two_weighty_things
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        • Jun 30 2011: I do not know Bin Ladan is dead or alive.
          but I know Alghaede is now killing Shia Muslims in Pakistan. specially in Rurals.
          they have farmed mines around rural areas and controlling ways and people do not have food.
          please research who first time gave military airplanes to Alghaede.
          also can not you see facts showing 9/11 was a Plan of Zeonism?
          you are seeing crimes of them and still not believe?
          better to have a tripe to Palestine. perhaps you see and know them. then you believe conspiracy.
          perhaps such news are censored in your TV.
          anyway 9/11 conspiracy does not have few evidences.
          one day all secrets will be opened. its soon.
        • thumb
          Jun 30 2011: Yes we all have our hidden agendas don't we? We all have our ball and chain we drag around and call it our anchor. We all have our misconceptions, our reasons, our differences, our references... True?

          "it will be soon."
          That kind of phrasing makes me uneasy. Are you implying something?
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          Jun 30 2011: Regarding religions being businesse:

          The purpose of a business is to provide a product or service that people need and to do it in such a way as to make a living from it. Businesses require consumers. Businesses exchange products or services for an exchange of payment. They compete with others for the same market.
          Holy Books
          Prayer books
          Dogma
          Relics
          Cathedrals
          Mosques
          Temples
          Hierarchies
          Yamakas
          Prayer rugs
          Wailing Walls
          Friday/Saturday/Sunday meetings
          Holidays
          Saints
          Martyrs
          Miracles
          Schools
          Tax breaks
          Followers
          Tender (money, souls, etc.)

          Religions are businesses. They do much good around the world. But they are businesses that man made. Because of that fact alone they also do much bad in the world.

          Now the business of life.... That's a business we all need to use more of!
        • Jun 30 2011: SR - Let's not get into conspiracy theories. They do not prove the Qur'an. Do you really think the Zionists control Al Queda and all Muslims terrorists are actually Zionist dupes?

          All the people that actually flew the planes were Muslims, (mostly from Saudi Arabia). They spent their whole lives learning the Islamic scriptures as did bin Laden. They and their cohorts quote Islamic scriptures and use the Islamic battle cry, "Allahu Akbar" (Allah is greatest). I suppose the Jews taught them that.

          Let's move on.
        • Jul 2 2011: Dear Jim,
          you are right about business of religion.
          but this is not true about ALL religions.
          at least I am sure about Shia Islam you can not find any religious leader being rich. they all have simple or poor life and spend their own money for poor people.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad-Taqi_Bahjat_Foumani
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_al-Sistani
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naser_Makarem_Shirazi

          can you show one Shia religious leader be a businessman in religion?

          also you are free to buy or not buy church/mosque ,...
          but you are not free to not buy death. you MUST buy death. death is sold you you.
          also about Hell if you do not care God and religion.
          in Islam people are free to go or not go to mosque. but finally you should decide about religion and God.
          this is a sign of true religion:
          http://tanzil.net/#36:21
      • thumb
        Jun 30 2011: Dear SR you say "Koran says تمر . if you know little Arabic grammar it means IS passING. WILL is false translate. please first check different languages then conclude and do not conclude quick.
        for example please see:
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/27:88
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.asad/27:88
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/27:88
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/27:88
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/27:88"

        SR all the translations say it will happen "and thou shalt see the mountains, that thou supposest fixed, passing by like clouds .." shalt see means will see at some later date and only the mountains. Not the Earth.

        And what is that later date? When will that happen? The previous verse tells us 27:87, IT IS THE JUDGEMENT DAY "the Day when the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and the earth will start in fear,"

        Even if it is happening, it is describing what is happening on the Judgement day.

        Clearly this is not an every day event. It will happen, according to those verses 27:87 and 27:88 on the Judgement Day.

        "There is no passage in the Quran saying the Earth is moving"

        SR "I showed you 4 verse. please research them"

        What research do you want me to do? NONE of them in ANY translation say the Earth is moving. I have shown you. If they are moving YOU research them and show me a translation where they say the Earth is moving

        Show me a verse like Quran 21:33 “It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its ROUNDED course.” http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.yusufali/21:33

        It says the Sun swims along in an orbit. Obviously he is talking about the orbit around the Earth - what it appears to do.

        Show me a verse where it says the Earth goes in an orbit around the Sun, or indeed any orbit at all. Show me in fact any verse where it says the Earth is moving.

        J Ali I think you know what I am talking about?
        • Jun 30 2011: Dear Richard,
          you are right. the translations say "will move". but they are not correct. the Arabic word should be considered. not translate.
          about

          "it is describing what is happening on the Judgement day."
          this is one apparently possible interpret of this verse:
          about this verse Koran interpreters said two interpret:
          1- some say like you it is discretion of Judgement day.
          2- some disagree 1 and say it is for now because:

          1. and has conflict with other verses describing Judgement day. for example:
          http://tanzil.net/#56:5
          http://tanzil.net/#77:10
          http://tanzil.net/#78:20
          http://tanzil.net/#101:5

          2. there is no clear relation to past verse. although is not impossible.

          so it means current move of them.

          "What research do you want me to do?"
          please yourself translate them.
          when some says: earth is like x. and x is a moving thing then we can conclude earth is moving. please research them.
          Koran says earth is cradle. what means this?
          you want to Koran exactly say what you want?

          "each in its ROUNDED course.” "
          please consider all translates or even yourself try to translate it. as I checked only one translate used rounded. and all other not said circular or round. Koran only says sun is going in a special path to reach a resting point. nothing more.

          "Obviously he is talking about the orbit around the Earth - what it appears to do."
          !!!!
          it is not obvious for me. you are judging about Koran based on your Images about Koran. not based on what really Koran says.

          "Show me a verse where it says the Earth goes in an orbit around the Sun, or indeed any orbit at all. Show me in fact any verse where it says the Earth is moving"
          I already showed you 5 verse that MEANS earth is moving.
          but I currently can not show you a verse exactly say what you want.
          Koran is not write to be shown to you only and exactly what words you want.
          but if you research the 5 verse I showed you will find Koran say earth is moving.
          http://tanzil.net/#76:3
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jun 30 2011: Nop.
        • Jun 30 2011: SR - The Qur'an is supposed to be the exact word of God and you are attempting to prove that. Muhammad and Allah repeatedly said it is clear and contains clear proofs.

          If the Qur'an is the exact word of God why do we have so many additions to it in brackets ( ) added by the very human Islamic scholars in order to make it clear? We have no right to even read what is within those brackets and attribute it to God. Take away what is within the brackets and the message becomes muddled and impossible to understand. The material within the brackets influences the meaning and therefore has the potential to change the meaning. How is it you read what is within the brackets and say it the word of God?

          Am I wrong here? Do you have a Qur'an in Arabic that does not have any information added by the human scribes? You know there is not a singe copy of a complete Qur'an that can be dated to within 150 of Muhammad's death. So if it was written based on the oral reports ( isnads), the scribes must be very careful not to add or subtract a single word, lest they alter the exact word of God. If they have done that then no one is reading the correct Qur'an.

          Even so, Richard is right, language is simply a medium for humans to express themselves and is translatable. It may take a few more words etc. but the message is translatable.

          Based on what I have read, and I have read every word in the Qur'an many times and a good deal of the Hadith, the Islamic terrorists have a better understanding of what is being said than you do.
      • thumb
        Jun 30 2011: J Ali you point me to a link that says the Sun moves around the centre of the Galaxy. I am aware of that.

        But the OBVIOUS apparent EVERYDAY movement of the Sun which everyone can observe EVERYDAY is its movement around the Earth.

        It APPARENTLY rises EVERYDAY in the East of the Earth, FROM the Earth and it APPARENTLY sets EVERYDAY in the west IN the Earth.

        To everyone the Earth is APPARENTLY still. It does not move. But the Sun appears to move around the Earth.

        All primitive societies believed that and the Arabs of Muhammad's time were a primitive society

        Now the Quran says about the Sun:

        21:33 “And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.”

        36:38 “And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him.”

        18:86 “Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring”

        These verses combined with the fact that not one verse in the Quran says the Earth is moving in an orbit, (and in fact not one verse in the Quran says the Earth is moving at all), perfectly matches the beliefs of the primitive Arabs, that the Sun moves around the Earth and the Earth is still.

        J Ali you imply that when the Quran is talking about the Sun going about its orbit, it is talking about the Sun moving around the centre of the Galaxy once every 230 million years, and not its apparent orbit everyday.

        I do not put 0 probability to that explanation, but examining those verses which explanation is more REASONABLE?

        Be honest and judge for yourself.

        All the verses that SR quotes as saying the Earth moves, do not say the Earth moves. He refers me to one verse which says the Earth is like a cradle or a bed, and asks me what that means. To him it means the Earth is going around the Sun, but to me it means the verse is saying the Earth is flat, another primitive belief.

        Now which explanation is more reasonable?
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jun 30 2011: Richard, I would love to reply and I have very clear answers. But I have already said that I will not. The reason is that I will have to give you countless lessons on Arabic for you to even understand what I am trying to tell you......this will take many many posts, comments and arguments....I am not willing to waste my time for this as I have, regretfully, in past conversations.....If you were me, you would have understood completely what I am feeling.... Do you know how frustrating this is?!

          The problem is that you are basing your arguments on translations that are vague and do not encompass the Arabic Quran......The Quran in Arabic is very clear and understandable... I am not saying translations should not be written....they are necessary and important..I am saying that it is very ignorant for you to base your arguments on translations.....your arguments should be in the form of honest questions..,,so that I can explain to you in Arabic.....If your attitude is that of someone who is arguing..we will never get anywhere as has happened before.....very long commentaries of the ARABIC Quran by our great modern Muslim scholars should be read and then you can ask, you can ask but not argue...because you will remain ignorant of Arabic.... The Quran is a miracle of Arabic.....the translations are not even Qurans, they are translations.

          I am very sorry if that disappoints you...but one thing I can honestly tell you is that ALL of your arguments against the Quran are false....and all are misunderstood...and that is so clear to me.... Maybe because of this misunderstanding, you think that I or any other Muslim believes what he reads with no thinking. While I have said many times that your arguments and all other arguments against the Quran have been mentioned in our own books, they are in fact full of them....we are not scared of them as your comments imply...and they are all answered in a clear logical way....

          Argue with S.R. who is more patient than me.

          Best of luck.
      • thumb
        Jun 30 2011: Then SR falls back to saying that I have misinterpreted it because I do not understand Arabic.

        Sorry SR I don’t buy that.

        I don’t have to understand Arabic. The people who translated the Quran understood Arabic allright, better than you.

        You may claim that Arabic is very advanced language, (though it beats me how the primitive Arabs invented such an advanced language), but even primitive English has words and concepts like moving or still, spheres and planes, round and flat, beds and balls.
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jun 30 2011: ''I don’t have to understand Arabic.''

          Yes you don't have to fully understand Arabic to understand the Quran..A Muslim scholar can teach you all of the Quran and what it says..... But to read translations of some verses which seem, at first sight, to be wrong and then to start arguing against the Quran, based on that translation. That is what is wrong. The Quran is an Arabic book..it is the best Arabic piece of literature ever..you are arguing based on translations.... you will never realize this because you don't understand the Arabic Quran.... I can really see where you go wrong in all of your arguments, because I understand Arabic....and as I said, that is very frustrating to me, and I become very sad when I see people understanding the Quran like this...... The Quran is not for just Arabs......it is for everyone....Every human can fully understand the Quran, every human can reach his full potential, every human can see Allah in everything even if he is not an Arab....

          ''O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.''

          49:12


          But he needs to ask people who understand what the original Quran is saying and that as a result leads him to knowing Arabic....just like everyone can understand the Theory of Evolution but not through himself.... A teacher teaches him....
        • Jul 1 2011: Richard.
          you still do not accept Koran says earth is moving?!!!!!
          oh my GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD! who is this Richard

          or still do not accept Koran says FOUND IT.
          “Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring”
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY
          FOUND IT=APPARENTLY

          HOW MANY TIMES I SHOULD REPEAT?
          I PREFER TALK SOME ONE ELSE.

          "I don’t have to understand Arabic. The people who translated the Quran understood Arabic allright, better than you."
          they have not translated for such exact scientific debates. translate is for studying.
          there are many books for deep meanings of Arabic words. some times a single words has many pages of explain.

          I accept about English.
          when you want to analyses an old and important text you should learn that language.
          but for simple studying you can use translates.
      • thumb
        Jul 1 2011: SR first you tell me that I cannot understand the Quran unless I learn Arabic. I say there is no need, as it should be translatable to English. You say no - Arabic is unlike any other language and cannot be translated. I ask, how then can Arabic be learned? Then you direct me to a place where I can learn it.

        But then if I can learn Arabic, then I can translate it. After all I will have to translate it in my head to understand it. But why should I spend my time learning it and then translating it when there are already experts in Arabic, who will be far more expert than me, who have already translated it?

        And another example of your flawed logic:-

        I ask you to produce even a single verse in the Quran which says the Earth is moving. You produce 4 verses. NONE of them says the Earth is moving.

        3 of them don’t speak of any movement WHATSOEVER of anything, leave alone the Earth.

        1 of them (27:88) talks of the mountains moving, not the whole Earth, and something that will happen, apparently on the Judgement Day.

        Here are the two verses 27:87 – 88 “The day the trumpet blast is sounded whoever is in the heavens and the earth will be terrified, save those whom God please, and all will appear before Him in abjectness. You will see the mountains and think they are firmly planted, but they will pass away like flying clouds: Artistry of God who perfected everything. He is indeed fully aware of what you do.”
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/27:88

        You admit that it could be the judgement day but say maybe not. But whatever day it is, it is the day that “the trumpet blast is sounded” and “whoever is in the heavens and the earth will be terrified, save those whom God please, and all will appear before Him in abjectness.”

        Now this does not happen everyday, even if it is not the judgement day. I hear no trumpet blasts, nor am I terrified, nor do I appear before “Him” in abjectness. It hasn’t happened in all of recorded history.
        • Jul 1 2011: "But then if I can learn Arabic, then I can translate it. "
          YES but translate is not valid for research. its used for reading Koran.
          for research should know Arabic.

          "But why should I spend my time learning it and then translating it when there are already experts in Arabic"
          ok. ask them 5 verse I showed about moving the earth.

          "I ask you to produce even a single verse in the Quran which says the Earth is moving. You produce 4 verses. NONE of them says the Earth is moving"
          proof. this only claim.
          when Koran says earth is a cradle or a calm walking camel does not it mean earth is moving.
          when some one says that girl is like moon what it means?
          understand it. Koran is not only and only an astronomy book. it has all aspects together. its is also poem.

          "talks of the mountains moving, not the whole Earth"
          in New Zealand mountains are walking or fixed in earth?

          "You admit that it could be the judgement day but say maybe not."
          I proved most probably it is not for Judgement day. I said some interpreters say it.
          also this is not only verse about moving earth.

          "Now this does not happen everyday,"
          it did not say every day. but according to grammar the verb تمر means passING
          what means ing in New Zealand?

          "I hear no trumpet blasts, "
          trumpet blasts is for previous verse speaking about Judgement day.
          first you should prove this verse is continuous of past verse and is not a new subject.
      • thumb
        Jul 1 2011: You say there is no clear relation of verse 27:88 to its previous verse 27:87, but admit it is “not impossible”.

        This is very funny indeed. Firstly because it seems to clearly follow from the previous verse, and secondly if the Quran is indeed so disjointed, can we really believe it is from God, rather than from some rambling and confused individual?

        If this is true then you have already disproved the Quran.

        In any case, to any reasonable person, this verse is NOT talking about the Earth moving around the Sun, or revolving on its axis, or moving at all.

        But the final straw comes from your conclusion. After agreeing that it COULD BE talking about an event, that will happen on the judgment day, (which is only the movement of the mountains and not the whole Earth), you conclude “so it means current move of them”.

        You have 100% certainty in your conclusion after admitting doubt in your premises!!

        No wonder when I asked you “Tell me honestly, does the option of rejecting Koran is from God exist in your mind?” You replied “exist but it is epsilon” (tending towards Zero). In your mind you are not prepared to accept that possibility, no matter what the evidence.

        But to conclude, you claim the Quran is from God because, according to your claim No. 5 “Koran says sun is moving”

        1. I have shown with the evidence above that MOST PROBABLY the Quran says the Sun is moving around a stationary Earth and sets IN the Earth at night.

        This casts serious doubts about the Quran, but is not 100% conclusive. I will grant you 0.1% doubt in this conclusion and J Ali's claim that the Quran maybe talking about its 270 million year journey around the centre of the Galaxy (although there is absolutely no evidence for this), rather than its daily journey around the Earth.

        BUT, and here is the clincher:
        • Jul 1 2011: many verses of Koran in independent of previous verse and this has no problem.
          its like a new sentence with a new subject in a text.

          "After agreeing that it COULD BE talking about an event, that will happen on the judgment day"
          yes could be. so you should first prove it. I showed some verses for disproving your idea.

          "You have 100% certainty in your conclusion after admitting doubt in your premises!!"
          not 100% but I showed proof for it.

          also it is not the only verse saying earth is moving. I showed 5.
          but you simple say:
          they do not say earth is moving. with no proof.
          those 5 verse MEANS earth is moving.

          "1. I have shown with the evidence above that MOST PROBABLY the Quran says the Sun is moving around a stationary Earth and sets IN the Earth at night."

          evidence for "around earth"?
          set in mud is APPARENTLY (FOUND IT).
      • thumb
        Jul 1 2011: 2. Whereas you pointed out “Koran says sun is moving”, you omitted to mention that THE KORAN ALSO SAYS THE SUN STOPS MOVING

        (36:38 “And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place;”)

        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/36:38

        This is obviously talking about the Sun resting at night.

        Now whether we are talking about the Sun’s apparent daily journey around the Earth, or its spinning on its axis, or its actual journey around the centre of the Galaxy, one thing is certain – the Sun never stops moving, there is no fixed resting-place.

        This conclusively, 100% proves that the Quran is false.

        Hallelujah SR ! Please do stop fretting about your imaginary Hell, which Islam frightens its followers with like the Bogey-man, and start enjoying life.

        Engage in song and dance. Try Ceroc or Rock n Roll.

        Do you listen to music? I invite you to listen to the Hallelujah chorus. It is very uplifting.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

        Enjoy. This is very different from your puritanical Iran.

        Finally in meeting this challenge about the Quran, we have probably inevitably offended people who revere Islam very much, but as Elam has put it so well "I just don't know how to say my piece about Islam without calling a spade a spade."

        This is something that Salim had pointed out right in the beginning that would inevitably happen.

        So Au revour, apologies and best wishes to you too.
        • Jul 1 2011: "This is obviously talking about the Sun resting at night."
          show me "night" in Koran or you are false.

          "THE KORAN ALSO SAYS THE SUN STOPS MOVING "
          Kora said sun is MOVING to a resting point. the stop can be 1 billion years later or tomorrow.
          not said at night.
      • thumb
        Jul 1 2011: SR "I PREFER TALK SOME ONE ELSE"

        Why SR? Is it because I point out the errors so clearly and you do not like it?

        SR "FOUND IT=APPARENTLY"

        Not to anyone who knows English. If I found you in your bath tub then I would actually see you in your bath tub, not apparently see you there.

        The Arabic word for "APPARENTLY"is not used in the verse.

        Here are the translations from many Arabic scholars:

        “Till he reached THE POINT OF THE SETTING SUN, and saw it set behind a muddy lake,” – Ahmed Ali
        “To the extent that when he reached THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,” Ahmed Raza Khan
        “until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,” Arberry
        “Until when HE REACHED THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he perceived it setting in a miry spring,” Daryababd (perceived it means he saw it)
        “Till, when HE REACHED THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a muddy spring,” Pickthall
        “To the West where HE FOUND THE SUN SETTING INTO A WARM SOURCE (spring) of water” Sarwar
        “Until when he reached THE PLACE WHERE THE SUN SET, he found it going down into a black sea”
        “Until, when HE REACHED THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found it set in a spring of murky water”

        The Quran talks about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN - an actual place. There is no such place.

        I will come to your last argument which rests on a point of fact.

        "This is obviously talking about the Sun resting at night."

        SR "show me "night" in Koran or you are false"

        This is a false argument. If the Koran does not explicitly say the resting place is at night, that does NOT mean my argument is false. The implicit meaning is obvious.

        SR "Kora said sun is MOVING to a resting point. the stop can be 1 billion years later or tomorrow.
        not said at night."

        It does not say it rests at night but taking all those verses together it is obvious that is what the Koran is referring to.

        And the Sun will NEVER stop moving. Not tomorrow, not in a billion years, Not EVER.
        • Jul 2 2011: "Why SR? Is it because I point out the errors so clearly and you do not like it?"
          because this is your always behaviour:
          1- you make a false claim about Koran
          2- I disprove your claim
          3- you do not reply my prove and again and again repeat your first claim without disproving or notice to my reply.

          for example for moving earth I showed you 5 verse but you only say they do not say earth is moving without caring to my explains.
          or about earth setting in mud. I many times said it says "found it" which means apparantly. and you again repeat without replying my disprove.

          "Not to anyone who knows English."
          it is clear in Arabic and I think in English also. you are playing with words.

          "The Arabic word for "APPARENTLY"is not used in the verse."
          my friend! وجدها means found it or apparently.
          why Koran not said see it setting instead of found it?

          the word used in arabic is وجدها which is different of arabic words for seeing رويت

          "The Quran talks about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN - an actual place."
          you do not consider word وجدها found it which not means seeing.
          please check other words in Koran for seeing.

          "does not explicitly say the resting place is at night, that does NOT mean my argument is false."
          also not prove you are right. you are claiming with no proof.

          "The implicit meaning is obvious."
          not obvious

          "And the Sun will NEVER stop moving. Not tomorrow, not in a billion years, Not EVER. "
          astronomers should say it.
          the Big Bang says universe is expanding. and some say one day will stop expanding and some say expanding for ever.
          this verse can be related to stopping the expand of universe. perhaps.
      • thumb
        Jul 2 2011: ..
        SR
        1- It is YOU who make a false claim about the Koran
        2- It is I who disprove your claim
        3- It is YOU who repeat your first claim without noticing it has been disproved.

        SR "for example for moving earth I showed you 5 verse but you only say they do not say earth is moving without caring to my explains."

        You showed me only 4 verses and I have clearly disproved you. None of them say the Earth is moving. The Quran is unaware that the Earth moves, only that the Sun and Moon move, because they appear to. Look at the reply to Elam above.

        SR "or about earth setting in mud. I many times said it says "found it" which means apparantly. and you again repeat without replying my disprove.,,my friend! وجدها means found it or apparently"

        My friend ALL the Arabic experts who have translated that verse translate it as FOUND. He FOUND the Sun setting into a muddy spring. Google translate also translates the word as FOUND.
        http://translate.google.co.nz/translate_t?rlz=1C1CHMY_enNZ358NZ378&q=%D9%88%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%87%D8%A7&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wT

        FOUND = Discovered, established, ascertained, confirmed.

        You are a Persian speaker who has spent a lifetime studying the Quran in Arabic yet you know Bug--er all about Arabic. I give you a FAIL, a big Zero. Go back to class and learn Arabic then come back and talk to me.

        "does not explicitly say the resting place is at night, that does NOT mean my argument is false."

        SR "also not prove you are right. you are claiming with no proof"

        I am claiming with logic. From a reading of that verse along with the others such as "THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN", since the sun sets at night, the resting place it is obviously referring to, is the "murky spring" at the "THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN", at night.

        The Big Bang? Dont make me laugh. The Quran talks about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, and says it sets into a muddy spring, what would it know about the Big Bang.
        • Jul 2 2011: "You showed me only 4 verses and I have clearly disproved you. "
          which disprove?

          "None of them say the Earth is moving. "
          you only repeat this as disprove!

          "FOUND = Discovered, established, ascertained, confirmed."
          1-found it means apparently.
          2- even if your claim is true it is what he (zul-gharnanin) see not what God said. that is story of zul-gharnanin

          "SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN", since the sun sets at night, the resting place it is obviously referring to, is the "murky spring" at the "THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN", at night."
          you are mixing two different verse.
          even if there your mix is valid still:
          1- it says found it (apparantly) which is different of Arabic words for seeing
          2- even if your claim is true (little possibility) it is only what zulgharnin said. Koran also quotes what Faroh or many other people said. not any thing Koran quotes from people are accepted by Koran. it is only quoting.

          "The Big Bang? Don't make me laugh. The Quran talks about THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, and says it sets into a muddy spring, what would it know about the Big Bang. "
          I can talk you about Big Bang in Koran but I prefer not talk you more.
          earth is enough.
          I prefer talk wise and honest people who accept mistakes. who are real truth seekers.
          I do not remember only one time you admitted one mistake.
          you are a proud and head strong man.
          Christian people are much better.
    • Jul 4 2011: Dear Richard, im with you in any word that you wrote, but http://cectic.com/comics/069.png.
      • Jul 5 2011: Dear Bran,
        why yourself not show your knowledge and logic?
        accusing others that they do not understand rules is not fair before play them.
        show your play.
        what law I not understand?
        what is accepted law in west is not accepted in Islam.
        but logic and wisdom is accepted anywhere.
        also this is not a war.
        this is a talk for developing knowledge of both side.
        to be honest I learned many things from people in TED.
        • Jul 8 2011: Dear S.R How to show logic and knowlede in topic when somebody wants to prove tha some old book is writen by nonexisting god. There are so many gods in this word, and you are convinced that your is the real one,and others gods are just fictional. You know,the concet of a spherical Earth dates back to ancient Greek philosophy, and they had like 17 gods, so they must be real one then . What we know about our universe and science is from people who were courious and wanted to understand the reality and laws of nature, you on the other side are taking that knowledge from humans away and giving all the credit to some god and you want to talk about logic. So now ,please tell me what have you learnd from Richard Dawson or people like him?
      • Jul 8 2011: Dear Bran,
        "How to show logic and knowlede in topic when somebody wants to prove tha some old book is writen by non-existing god."
        what is the problem?
        you think it is non-existing God and I think it is existing God.

        "You know,the concet of a spherical Earth dates back to ancient Greek philosophy, and they had like 17 gods, so they must be real one then ."
        who said who says earth is round is God?!
        Koran has thousands of wonders and they all together show this book is from God. not only this one.

        ". What we know about our universe and science is from people who were courious and wanted to understand the reality and laws of nature, you on the other side are taking that knowledge from humans away and giving all the credit to some god and you want to talk about logic."
        please notice.
        what proves Koran is that Koran is a book from 1400 years ago and still has no scientific error. I did not give the credit of science to Koran. I say if Koran is from humans so should have errors.

        "So now ,please tell me what have you learnd from Richard Dawson or people like him?"
        from Richard I learned he has dogma and repeats same things without notice or disproving my replies. but from other people on TED I learned many useful things.
        • Jul 8 2011: But why did god first creates our universe with errors, and life with so many errors then waited so long and write a book with no errors?
          And please find answer for me in koran for that god paradox
          If He can make such a mountain, there is something which He cannot do: He cannot lift the mountain,
          If He cannot make such a mountain, there is something which He cannot do: He cannot make the mountain.
      • Jul 9 2011: what error you mean has universe?
        if universe have any error will not work so exact and all planets and stars and everything will have accidents and our earth will not work so exact and calm around sun.
        all stars and planets have influence on each other according to gravity.
        please explain what error in universe you mean?
        I disagree your default that universe has error.
        please note that God has no limitation but universe is made of material and material has limitations and any creation with material has limitations according to properties of material.
        for example material has time, weight, dimensions, place that are limitations.

        "He cannot lift the mountain,"
        why you think God can not lift the mountain? do you have proof?
        for example you can cut your hand. but when you do not do this it means you cannot cut your hand?!

        "He cannot make the mountain."
        God can make any king of mountain.
        why you say that? I not understand what you mean.
        • Jul 9 2011: I'm probably out of my mind that I comment in this discussion as you've been beating the same dead horse all along and do not show any sign of rationality. Having said that, I need to emphasize Bran's point when he said you should not argue with a believer as they don't know they basic rules of the game. Also,

          1. What Bran means by imperfect universe is that if God was perfect and created the universe perfectly, why would there be the need to send Koran in the first place. If He needs to prove himself, then there was something wrong with his creation that he needs correction.

          2. The mountain example is a well known paradox and it is surprising that you don't understand it. Bran asks you "can God create a mountain big enough that he cannot lift?" If you say yes then it means God is not perfect and if you say no the same. I'm sure you don't have a convincing answer for that as you have not shown any sign of logical reasoning in your previous posts.

          3. I think it behooves you to first to prove existence of God and then proving the Koran is from Him. So it is upon you to partake in the "prove/disprove atheism discussion" and if you ratify their problems then you could give convincing answer here.

          4. It is very dishonest of you to try represent Persian scholars as whom they are not. It is intellectually wrong to interpret Khayyam's poetry by giving ridiculous metaphors. How would you feel if someone does the same thing to Koran and make outrageous claims.

          5. You and J Ali didn't give any convincing response to my previous comment. Say non-Arabic speaking people believe in Islam does not solve the logical contradiction that I pointed out exists in your reasoning.

          6, I've seen brilliant scientists from Iran but I guess when it comes to critical reasoning the education system does a very poor job. Quoting Wikipedia and Howstuffworks is not how you should conduct research. Everyone can alter those sources, you need to give credible sources.
        • Jul 9 2011: I only provided some of my observations and didn't mean to belittle you. In fact I should admit I've seen other religious groups that don't even accept science and find it against their religious. So it is at least good that you're trying to prove your religion scientifically although you're not using a scientific method at all.

          I'd suggest you read Spinoza as a starter to see how one gives rational proofs. You moreover need to improve your logic. If I may, I'd like to refer you to works by Bertrand Russell on religion. He has a great prose and I'm sure you'd enjoy.

          On the other hand, you've been blaming Westerners as ignorant of Middle-Eastern science and culture while you know little about their culture.
      • Jul 9 2011: "do not show any sign of rationality"
        I hope you show enough proof instead of accusing without proof.

        your points:
        1- what is the relation with error of universe?!
        God not need to prove himself. why you think so?
        sending Koran is not for proving God.
        people are free to believe or not believe God. but if some one wanted to believe there is enough proof for him. this is not need of God. this is guide of God.

        2- sorry It is not well known for me. I not heard it.
        "can God create a mountain big enough that he cannot lift?"
        God can created any thing. but this is not a "thing"
        what you say is impossible rationally at all.
        right now God is lifting all the universe by controlling its parts (stars, planets,...)
        please ask God possible things. can you fit earth inside an egg?

        3- proving existence of God is in other topics like:
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/1599/who_is_god.html
        http://www.ted.com/conversations/1602/why_don_t_people_believe_in_go.html
        please read my comments there.
        it is offtopic here. also proving Koran is in fact proving God.

        4-"It is very dishonest of you to try represent Persian scholars as whom they are not. "
        iran has thousands like them and all Muslim. no doubt. but some have more than one nationality. this not change matter. they are thousands. also past Iran was very large containing many today countries.
        it is not interpret. I showd enough proof. please read them. what means kausar? it is clear. not personal interpret.
        no problem other interprets are welcomed and we discuss them. anyway any interpret needs proofs and evidence.

        5- what comment exactly you mean?
        non-arabic people know arabic also and anso use specialists. you do not know medicine but use a doctor. perhaps you have arab friends or you can use dics and many websites for arabic language. this is a scape from argument.
        6- I know what you mean. there is lack of English references. which ref. you have problem?
        • Jul 9 2011: I only give you one example from the previous comment to show that you "do not show any sign of rationality." I don't intend to accuse you but you're very emotional on this topic and that hampers your judgement. For example you just said that: "proving Koran is in fact proving God." No it does not. You argument is like saying proving Relativity correct makes it from Einstein. Relativity can be correct without being produced by Einstein and one doesn't imply the other. This example alone does not show that you're irrational per se ans everyone makes mistakes but considering the fact whenever there is a rational argument your response is way off makes you so. My next points would also support my current argument so I'm not accusing you without evidence.

          1. In number 1 I simply paraphrased what Bran wanted to say and I don't have enough information to draw any kinds of conclusion on that topic. I am personally not sure yet that we poses free will so having the choice in believing is irrelevant now. So again you have to first prove that I have free will then try to convince me that I have the choice of believing in Koran.

          2. It is widely known as the "Omnipotence Paradox." There is a good article here http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omnipotence/ but I'm sure if you search you find other credible sources.

          3. I have to read those and get back to you on that.

          4. Writing lengthy discussion does not constitute a proof. You simply distorted what the poem says. The "Kausar" does not mean what you say in that context and you know it. Considering the rest of Kayyam's work it is clear that he doesn't mean what you want him to mean.

          The fact that other interpretations of Koran are welcomed as it is so open ended for anyone to abuse it is the source of many issues that we have such as extremist to use it in order to justify killing indecent people. Also the idea of having proof and evidence for your interpretation is again a fallacy as if there were proof then it would
        • Jul 9 2011: be logical deduction not interpretation.

          5. Again here you completely miss the point and being completely irrational. Not knowing medicine to recognizing a doctor is not as to not knowing Arabic to recognize validity of Koran. Medicine to doctor is as Koran to its sum of knowledge (roughly). So not knowing medicine is the same as not having that knowledge. Your example in fact emphasizes my point, you don't consult a doctor who you don't understand his language, of course in metaphorical sense.

          But as I said you don't get the point, or probably deliberately avoiding it. If knowing Arabic (by which I mean the culture and all you quoted in you discussion above) is a prerequisite to understanding Koran there is nothing to necessitate learning Arabic to me and if I don't know Arabic, Koran doesn't make sense to me so it is not valid to me and so on.

          6. All the ones which you referenced and are community edited.

          Anyhow, I won't probably come back though I'll read your response to this. Also, I didn't mean to offend you (particularly when I said you don't show any sign of rationality, by that I didn't mean you are incapable of being so but rather chose to not being so) thus if I sounded judgmental at points, my apologies.
      • Jul 9 2011: "although you're not using a scientific method at all."
        please note here is not a lab and we do not want to conduct a scientific research.
        what we claim is this:
        Koran has no conflict and contradiction with CERTAIN science (not hypothesis)
        this is a simple compare. this is not a scientific research needing scientific method.

        "I'd suggest you read Spinoza as a starter to see how one gives rational proofs. "
        no problem. but are you ready to read my recommended books also?
        please pick one of Spinoza proofs and write it short here.

        "You moreover need to improve your logic."
        sure. I am a simple human with errors and evils.

        please pick one logic of Bertrand Russell and show here.

        yes I know little about western culture
        • Jul 9 2011: ˝I am a simple human with errors and evils˝
          We all are that, we all have errors, that because we are part of evolution, and we are evolving from simple life to more complex one. I have no problem with that, we have proof for that. That is science. I know that after Im dead all my memmory and my personality is going to nonexistence and my body is going to decompose. What you believe is that after you are dead you are going to better place and live you life with all you dead ancestors and so on. So why would god in the first place create this life if there is another better one after this where is logic to that. Would not be more logical that god is trynig to overcome himself and improve ,rather than playing childish games with some universe and life. If you see us humans, the genius is always trying to improve values of things not to decrease them, god is doing it backward.

          And thank you Sometimes Someone for longer view, its hard for me because english is like my 3 language and isnt very fluent yet :)
      • Jul 9 2011: Dear Bran,
        "I know that after Im dead all my memmory and my personality is going to nonexistence and my body is going to decompose. "
        are you sure place of memory is brain?
        is science sure about this?
        Koran says memory is stored in soul and is protected by God after death and will be returned to your new body at Judgement day.
        also after death you have your memory but you leave your body and you will be soul with a transparent body until the Judgement day that you will have a new body like your current body. right now your body is made of soil (foods of your mother).
        brain is only a terminal between body and soul.
        http://www.al-islam.org/gallery/kids/Books/unseen/title.htm
        http://www.al-islam.org/the-hereafter/

        "What you believe is that after you are dead you are going to better place and live you life with all you dead ancestors and so on. "
        perhaps I go to a worse place. people change during life and I am not sure God has accepted my good deeds. God does not accept any good deed.

        "So why would god in the first place create this life "
        God Intended to be known so created world and human and free will and wisdom and good and evil.

        "Would not be more logical that god is trynig to overcome himself and improve"
        1- we have no power against God. did you decide to be born? or can you not die?
        2- God is not responsible to any one.
        3- the goal of God for creating human is not good life of human. goal is to God be known. if you consider the goal of life only welfare of human then OK this is not rational. but you do not define the goal of life and creation. God defined it.

        "trying to improve values of things"
        what you define value?
        some one defines calve food or enjoy or money or power or welfare or other.
        we define value nearing to God and making friendship with God.
      • Jul 10 2011: Sometimes Someone ,
        "You argument is like saying proving Relativity correct makes it from Einstein. "
        You are right about Relativity .
        But about Koran please note that no human claimed is writer of Koran. Even Muhammad (PBUH)
        Also by proving Koran I mean proving that Koran is not from any human. If this is proved there is no competitor for God.
        This is not all the argument. And please do not call me irrational before knowing the argument complete.
        If Koran be correct then who is its writer? (there is man proofs Koran can not be from human)

        "I am personally not sure yet that we poses free will "
        doubt between two option proved free will.


        "you have to first prove that I have free will then try to convince me that I have the choice of believing in Koran."
        Before that you should prove you are human then free will!
        Any topic has some assumptions. This is assumed in this topic and needs other topic. This is not irrational.

        "Omnipotence Paradox."
        This has a simple reply:
        it is logically impossible. If anything is possible God can do it. By definition God has maximally power and you say can God create a stone that can not lift?
        This is Impossible. First you prove it is possible then God can do it.
        Omnipotence Paradox is not a rational and logical argument. It is clear that impossible is not possible. Impossible is "nothing" that God can do it. If anything is possible God can do it. This is not rational. If you think much to such irrational paradoxes you will become crazy.
        Lets talk rational.

        "Writing lengthy discussion does not constitute a proof."
        Agree. Also saying this does not disprove it.

        "The "Kausar" does not mean what you say in that context and you know it. "
        Kausar is famous. If you do not know something please do call it distortion. Kausar is a famous word in Koran:
        http://tanzil.net/#108:1
        Please do not claim. If you have other possible meaning show it.
      • Jul 10 2011: "Considering the rest of Kayyam's work it is clear that he doesn't mean what you want him to mean."
        No problem. Why you not prove this. I can discuss any poem. I showed proof. But you only claim (about Khayyam)


        "The fact that other interpretations of Koran are welcomed as it is so open ended for anyone to abuse it "
        Agree. And many apparently Muslims do this. But when considering proofs and evidences of each interpret not all of them are correct. Interpret with no proof is not valid.
        About killing please note the emperor justifying Koran for killing never care about proofs and simply kills who want to disprove his interpret.
        Please see the life of:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles
        They wanted to disprove interpret of Muslim emperors and they killed or jailed.

        "be logical deduction not interpretation."
        My interpret of that poem has enough evidence. Also OK anywhere you feel I am interpreting false please ask me proof.

        "medicine"
        Many people accuse me I am hiding behind Arabic language and claim westerns can not understand Arabic. I mean you can use a Arabic professional like a doctor to ask if my claims about errors (not perfect) translations are true or not.
        I said many times: translation is suitable for simple studying. But when discussing on social Arabic words it needs deep knowing of meaning of that word and only one translate is not enough for a proof.

        "6. All the ones which you referenced and are community edited."
        Not all. www.al-islam.org is community edited? Or www.makarem.ir


        you can call me irrational. and I am not hurt.
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      Jul 16 2011: I am sorry just to clarify and save time before entering the fray. Is there any proof that could ever be given to SR or any other Muslim advocate that the Koran and Mohammed are wrong?
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    Jul 23 2011: Why do we invest so much energy trying to constantly prove and figure out if these small details written in the Koran were written by man or God? Does it really matter, is it that important that we must have arguments over them?

    Why do we focus so much on such minute details such as; 'Koran says sun is moving' - seriously, does this even matter?

    Can we please focus on the beautiful message the Koran is trying to express. The same message the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita etc are all trying to express -Loving, understanding, compassion... How come we are missing the point when it's that simple?

    Why do we keep doing this?
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    Jul 22 2011: I believe there are things that, as yet, are beyond our comprehension (Is there life after death? Is there life elsewhere in our galaxy or beyond? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven? Is there a Hell? Etc.) ; but what I have found out is that to use any religion as the only map for finding out what those answers are is like working with a single, antiquated tool.
    For the most part I've listened to the debate, since others within it had more expertise on the subject. Here are the questions I still have:
    Why would God's Word be so cryptic? And only in Arabic?
    Why would God create a world that includes immeasurable pain and suffering for some but not for others?
    Why would there be so many different religious beliefs, all claiming to be the Word of God?
    How can any book claiming to be the Word of God not include recognition of the fact that our understanding changes as we evolve and therefore come out with subsequent editions to address those changes?
    SR, I can almost hear your responses as I write. Your loyalty to the Koran is, I suppose, noble but in my opinion misguided. We agree to disagree I guess. When I tell you that I haven't read much of the Koran and don't intend to, I say that not because I don't care about finding out the meaning of life and beyond, but precisely because of it. I am fervent about it. I've also largely stopped reading other traditional religious books. I get it. I see what good they can provide and I see their limitations. I get it. I have moved on, I'm following other maps, listening to other people and to my own mind and heart. I am formulating my own thoughts.
    Elam and Richard, I have learned a ton from both of you. Not much in regards to whether or not the Koran is the word of God - I kind of knew that already, having been brought up in a Irish Catholic family. I think what I have been most impressed with is your intellect and ambition to seek answers based on all knowledge - not just one reference. Peace and thanks.
    Out of characters...
    • Jul 22 2011: Hi Jim, I ask the same questions, especially the first two. I'm glad you have decided to comment here, you have an open mind and I'm sure your quest for spiritual understanding will enrich your life as you look into various teachings and see how they square with your mind and heart. Your thoughts have helped me, and I appreciate that. I would like to respond to SR on a couple more threads but I may not have time. For now I would like to close with a few questions which I struggle to reconcile with my heart and mind.

      The Islamic perspective of God leaves us with a God that acts like a tyrant. He threatens and points out with great clarity that he will personally participate in torturing us, his creation, in Hell. Then he offers us a paradise if we follow his guidelines, that is wholly separate from him and contains physical aspects that is assumed to be of interest or value to us. Paradise seems to appeal to what some would want if they still had earthly concerns after death, which I find strange. Heaven in the Bible is spending time communing with God and being in God's presence, which seems to make sense if God is good and the source of all life and knowledge and indeed where we came from. To be fair there is also some depiction's of Heaven in the Bible which include streets of gold etc. As if we humans would be interested in that after death.

      Questions remain: How could God be willing and able to participate in tormenting and torturing his creation in Hell once their physical life on earth is done?
      How is this morally possible?
      How can God do this and also call himself Merciful and Forgiving, especially when he says that the infidel disbelievers will never be forgiven or released from their Hellish torment?
      How can God be Loving, Merciful, and Forgiving and still literally “curse” certain members of his creation? This is decidedly schizophrenic.

      It appears that only if one believes Allah is God first, can you justify this nonsense.

      Con't.
      • Jul 23 2011: Dear Elam,
        "The Islamic perspective of God leaves us with a God that acts like a tyrant. "
        God is both merciful and tyrant (tyrant while Just. without neglecting any little good deed)
        God is not only tyrant. he is tyrant for his enemies who fight God. not fir his friends. all human have equal opportunity in their life to be friend of God or friend of Satan (enemy of God).
        so better to see all aspects of God not only one aspect.
        it is like a fair boss who say: it you work well I double your wage and if work bad I fire you. then a lazy employee say: the boss is tyrant. and a clever says: what a bounteous boss.
        actually believing God is all Love and not send anyone to Hell is not a real Image of God and Indeed is false Image. if so then God is stupid to created world and life and human. from first God could send all to heaven and also if so then what about evil people who do any kind of evil deed and kill other and steal and so on then no punish! this human is equal to a good human who help others and loves humans? no. God is not all Love. God is Just.
        http://www.shiamultimedia.com/englishbooks1.html

        "that is wholly separate from him"
        paradise is not separate of God. humans can meet God in paradise. meeting God is one reward of human in paradise.

        "Paradise seems to appeal to what some would want if they still had earthly concerns after death, which I find strange. "
        human before and after death is same and one soul. only changing body. like changing cloth. and same interests.

        "How could God be willing and able to participate in tormenting and torturing his creation in Hell once their physical life on earth is done? "
        simply!. why God should be as you want? God is not responsible to anyone and do anything wants. this is mind of Jews who want to God behave as they want.
        why not? what is the problem with sending human to fire?
        its like you make a doll and burn it. doll has not any right against you.
      • Jul 23 2011: "How is this morally possible? "
        it is moral. because God said it to humans and gave humans enough time (life) to avoid it. so it is moral. if God did not say it, it was not moral.
        also do not compare the human-human relations to God-human relations. the existence of human is from God and human has no right from God. we should thank God that created us from nothing. but a human can not burn other human and is not moral.

        "How can God do this and also call himself Merciful and Forgiving,"
        God has two kind of mercy. the entire mercy only for life and is for all humans. giving food, water air eye ear think brain wisdom knowledge and so on is for all and is entire merciful. the especial merciful is only for friends of God and God never called himself merciful for his enemies.
        merciful has terms. it is like a bank says: we give loan. OK. with what term? any one can get loan?

        " especially when he says that the infidel disbelievers will never be forgiven or released from their Hellish torment? "
        when God said this? human has opportunity to return to God until his last second of life and God forgive him. one infidel disbeliever came to prophet and became believer while they spent all their life disbelieving and accidentally died same day without even one praying and prophet said he entered paradise because he returned God and God forgiven him.
        this is very amazing:
        http://tanzil.net/#39:53 (all)

        also Satan cheat some believers spending all their life believing at final seconds of life and they die disbeliever and God Hell. only powerful belief with enough proof can pass the hard induces of false beliefs by Satan before death. Satan do his best before death.

        "How can God be Loving, Merciful, and Forgiving and still literally “curse” certain members of his creation? This is decidedly schizophrenic. "
        Love of God is for who obey God and hate of God is for who disobey God. this is clear. God never said his Love is for all equal even cruel evil emperors.
      • Jul 23 2011: if God is righteous so should punish evil people and reward good people. this is clear.
        why God should Love all people even extreme humans?
        http://tanzil.net/#5:100
        http://tanzil.net/#11:24
        are they equal?
    • Jul 22 2011: Again, the Allah depicted in the Qur'an is an unabashed megalomaniac tyrant who forces his will on people. People who choose poorly need forgiveness and guidance but “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”
      Who among us has never done any wrong?

      Allah only does positive things for those who 'fear him and obey the messenger'. All others will meet him in Hell where he will take out his anger on them in violent acts perpetrating endless pain and humiliation that could only come from a source of hatred.

      Why?

      Did the creator of the Universe have such enormous hatred for what he was creating?

      Is he a Sadist torturing and humiliating us for his own pleasure? Humiliating humanity does not make sense in the context of God. Humiliating and tormenting people is negative and hateful energy which simply cannot be justified. Oh ya, 'might makes right', 'the ends justify the means'. This philosophy doesn't work. Life is a journey, the ends do not justify the means. The means, that which you do and think, represent your position in life. Doing bad things to get the result you want is a really poor, if not impossible, position for God to take in my opinion.

      Furthermore why does Allah say the Qur'an's message is a confirmation of Biblical scriptures which bring a message of love, and then change the message to one of spite and hatred. Love is only doled out (if at all) to those who follow his instructions explicitly.

      This scripture leaves me with a quiet assurance that Allah has got it all wrong.

      Gotta go.
      • Jul 23 2011: "Again, the Allah depicted in the Qur'an is an unabashed megalomaniac tyrant who forces his will on people. "
        people have free will. do not you see disbelievers?
        God forces his will to animals. they have no free will.
        believe with force has no value. this exactly why human go to paradise and animals no.

        “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”
        please first understand Koran well.
        what Koran says is this:
        1- God guides all humans EQUAL by sending prophets. prophets are not only for believers.
        2- some appreciate God and hear to prophets and get reward.
        3- some do not care prophets and curse prophets and say prophets are magicians and liars. they worth punish and the punish of them is: “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”

        so please note “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.” is kind of punish for select of them. this is not at first. at first God guides all equal. if you read the past and after of verses you get it.

        "Who among us has never done any wrong? "
        this punish is not for who do a wrong. God forgives thousands times. this is for who there is not even a tiny possibility of return to God and has done so many evil deeds that is drawn extreme in evil and has destroyed all bridges his behind. this is not for all evil people. few people has such condition. God is merciful and does not punish by one wrong. make sure this rule is not for you.
        this is for leaders and heads of evil in world. who are extreme evil with no little good.

        "Allah only does positive things for those who 'fear him and obey the messenger'. All others will meet him in Hell"
        no no. God is merciful. and forgives. please do not make a cruel Image of God. please see all aspects of God together.
        http://tanzil.net/#39:53
        I think you need some balance:
        please see this example of 422 verses about mercy of God to become balanced;
        http://tanzil.net/#search/root/%D8%B1%D8%AD%D9%85

        the mercy of God overtook his angry
      • Jul 23 2011: "Why? "
        because God is impartial ; just ; righteous

        "Did the creator of the Universe have such enormous hatred for what he was creating? "
        this is required for knowing God. if God not do this God will not be known.
        God love himself and Love means "no other" so who disobey God means loves a thing other than God and so God does not love who love anything other than God. obeying unless God means loving unless God. how God love who love a thing other than God?
        how God love who loves food more than God? or money or other things? who gives money to orphan because of God proves that Loves God more than God. and his claim of love is not lie.
        God loves only himself and and who love other thing God not love him. only who forget anything unless God become like God and same as God and God love him. not loving is known hate by us.
        God said:
        who Love me, I Love him. and who I love him I kill him. and who I kill his wergild is on me
        and who his wergild is on me, I myself am his wergild.

        "Is he a Sadist torturing and humiliating us for his own pleasure?"
        not for pleasure. God has no need to pleasure. this is attribute of God.
        its like blue that is attribute of sky.

        "Humiliating humanity does not make sense in the context of God."
        God is not human. human-human relation is different of human-God relation.
        we have nothing against God.

        "Furthermore why does Allah say the Qur'an's message is a confirmation of Biblical scriptures which bring a message of love"
        if you do more and more and more research and research and research you will find [perhaps at end of your life] that both are same message of Love. but if you not interpret Love as you like.
        a true love is what beloved wants. not what I want.
        when you could remove yourself and all be God then you and God are one like a drop in ocean and you become God.

        Hafiz:
        you yourself are your curtain, so stand up from between.

        [it means if you really Love God and leave yourself you meet God. even before death]
    • Jul 23 2011: Dear Jim,
      Questions like "Is there life after death? Is there life elsewhere in our galaxy or beyond? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven? Is there a Hell? Etc."
      Can not be solved using religion. They should be solved by wisdom of each human individually. Religion is the next step. If some one accepted God exist then asks how I can know and near to God. Religion of for nearing and becoming friend of God. Not for replying such questions.

      I try answer your hard questions with my limited knowledge:
      "Why would God's Word be so cryptic? "
      This is for Love. God loves human and made this game (world and life) and wanted to human know and find God little by little not at once. If human know God at once then human was angel and knowledge with no free will has no value. Its like a robot that you copy all the books to its mind. So finding and loving God while you have option to not know God and be evil has more beauty and value in the God-human relation. It is because Love.
      [also a girl shows her beauties step by step to make the man her lover]. This is kind of coquetry.

      "And only in Arabic?"
      Some reply from Koran:
      http://tanzil.net/#14:4
      http://tanzil.net/#41:44
      http://tanzil.net/#26:198
      http://tanzil.net/#12:2
      http://tanzil.net/#39:28
      Also Arabic is very powerful language.

      "Why would God create a world that includes immeasurable pain and suffering for some but not for others?"
      God is Just and gives reward to cover pains. In this world or after death.
      Also pains and sicks are for healthy humans to think and know the value of Gift of God (health)
      "Two gift are unknown: health and security" prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

      Also all humans have pain and problems even rich people. No problem is impossible In this world.
      "life and problems are mixed" prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

      "Why would there be so many different religious beliefs, all claiming to be the Word of God?"
      God built the belief and religion inside the human and human can not live without any kind of belief. Religion is one inner
    • Jul 23 2011: Dear Jim,
      "Why would there be so many different religious beliefs, all claiming to be the Word of God?"
      God built the belief and religion inside the human and human can not live without any kind of belief. Religion is one inner need of human.
      Also belief to a superior being (even a deity or money or cow) is an inner need of human.

      "understanding changes as we evolve and therefore come out with subsequent editions to address those changes?"
      All holy books (like Torah Bible Koran) are the same from same God and the next is the subsequent edition of past. Humans make them different and make them for themselves. Book are for all humans and not for a special nation.

      "Your loyalty to the Koran is, I suppose, noble but in my opinion misguided."
      No problem. I am happy to you help me I understand my mistakes.

      "I am fervent about it. I've also largely stopped reading other traditional religious books. I get it. I see what good they can provide and I see their limitations. I get it. I have moved on, I'm following other maps, listening to other people and to my own mind and heart. I am formulating my own thoughts."
      I do not want you accept Koran and Islam. I only want you start hearing others and using your own think instead of media think for you.
      You have open mind and you worth the name of human!
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        • J Ali

          • +1
          Jul 11 2011: ''well i have a bad experience. i have witnessed a suicide bomber shouting "ALLAHU AKBAR" before he blew himself up. ''

          many of my family members have been killed by suicide bombers,,,, if you think they are just attacking non-Muslims then you are wrong....they kill more Muslims then non-Muslims.... I hate them just as much as you.... they are not Islam.
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        • J Ali

          • +1
          Jul 11 2011: ''now tell me why you call them un-Islamist.''


          ''And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.''

          4:93

          Doing What Islam asks you to do is not Islam.....Islam is belief and righteous action..and not just action....they do not have the right beliefs and they kill innocent humans... Read about Imam Hussain and Ashura.... the Army who massacred the Progeny of the Prophet on that day did pray and so on....but they were not Muslims..
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    Jun 23 2011: "Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict."

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html

    http://i.imgur.com/9RH4F.jpg
    • Jun 23 2011: Dear Simon,
      no problem.
      I strongly claim all claimed contradiction about Koran are apparently contradiction and are doubt. but no one can prove them certainly and they are false.
      please also you first reply what is your goal?
      do you want to seriously know truth?
      are you ready to pay the price of truth?

      I can not write a book about the long list of those apparently contradictions in Koran.
      so please pick any you like.
      and then what will happen if it was wrong?
      only spending some time talking? or you really are seeking truth?

      Dear Christophe,
      also you please pick one you like and also please reply and then what will happen if it or any other you showed was wrong?
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        Jun 23 2011: My apologies for the image link. It was a little juvenile but funny :)
        I'm going to reply to this and your comment above to Christoph.

        Ok to begin with yes I do seek truth. I place a higher value on truth than anyone I know.
        There are many points I would like to raise here but it would derail the conversation into various tangents so I'll refrain.
        Keeping on topic, I will present one contradiction from the Koran that I assume you will attempt to clarify in some way as to dispel the contradiction.
        I will say however that even if you dispell all self contradicitons from the Koran it wouldn't nessessarly be true. There are no self contradicions in the story of "goldilocks and the three bears" but that doesn't mean it's not fantasy. The presence of contradictions gaurentees falsehood/error, their absence does not gaurentee truth.

        Here is my specific contradiction for you:
        Non Muslims are OK - "Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve." 18:29
        vs
        Non Muslims should be killed - "They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve ... take them and kill them wherever ye find them." 4:89
        • Jun 23 2011: Dear Simon Tovey,
          "I will say however that even if you dispell all self contradicitons from the Koran it wouldn't nessessarly be true. "
          agree. but usually any book written by a human has self contradicitons if search inside it.

          "Here is my specific contradiction for you"
          first:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/18:29
          second:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:89

          "take them and kill them wherever ye find them"
          who are "them"? non-Muslims? why?
          the second is not about non Muslims. it is about some Muslims.
          if you read its previous verse you see:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:88
          "groups concerning the hypocrites"
          it is about hypocrites Muslims which are living in Muslim community but in fact they are spy and trying to destroy Islam and Muslims.

          why non-Muslims think Muslims love to kill non-Muslims?
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqYNydEH5Sk
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuMLZGKh4HU&playnext=1&list=PL1B867BF2B1E509C9
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ5dN68tvQc
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jun 23 2011: Simon, if you had any understanding of Arabic and if you had given the translation with what was after the part you gave....

          ''And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve; surely We have prepared for the iniquitous a fire, the curtains of which shall encompass them about; and if they cry for water, they shall be given water like molten brass which will scald their faces; evil the drink and ill the resting-place.''

          you would have know that the verse is not telling you to disbelieve and it's not giving you the right to do so........the verse is a warning, just like if someone is going to hit your child and you tell him ''come on, hit him if you want, lets see you do it....'' as a warning.....Arabic is vital here to understand this verse and all the verses of the Quran..

          that is why after the part you mentioned immediately it says ''surely We have prepared for the iniquitous a fire......''

          the verse never said its ok do not believe.....

          therefore there is no contradiction in place........

          just for your information.....Islam doesn't tell us to kill any non-muslim....why is it that the Quran is always quoted out of context?!........it only tells us to kill non-Muslims who attack us in war.....then we have the right to kill them in self-defence just like any other human community which is attacked.....

          read this verse

          ''Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.''

          60:8

          nearly all of the so called ''contradictions'' in the Quran are the result of no understanding of Arabic and misunderstanding translations which can be vague.....so these are all contradictions which apply on something which is not the Quran.....
        • Jun 24 2011: Dear Simon Tovey,
          what is your reply?
          please honestly reply and if it is not contradiction honestly respect truth and say it is not contradiction.
          Richard forced me to get verifications from people about seeing my comments.
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        Jun 24 2011: It seems that the quotes I gave were rather selective. My trust in that particular site has gone down considerably. Regardless, I dont think the contracition has been entirely dispeled. However the text and translations are so vauge as to allow for such a range of possible meaning that discussions of this kind are near pointless.
        While I still think the Koran will have internal contradicions I don't have the time or the energy to explore them with you. There are otheres in this conversation obviously more knowledgable than I in these matters so I'll leave this point for them to take up.

        Hypothetically speaking, lets say the Koran is free of contradictions:
        So what? As I have previously stated, many other works of fiction are without contradiction too.
        • J Ali

          • 0
          Jun 24 2011: ''However the text and translations are so vauge as to allow for such a range of possible meaning that discussions of this kind are near pointless.''

          I could not agree more......The Quran is so beautiful that you cannot grasp its beauty in another language other than Arabic...translations lose a lot of meaning...I mean, if you listened to the Quran in Arabic you would probably be in tears........and that is why I ask people to read the Quran in Arabic....study the Quran in Arabic, continuously ask the scholars of Islam who have spent their lives studying the Quran......they are not afraid of questions...they love them....they want to explain the truth and beauty of Islam to people...... the likes of Bin Laden are not scholars or even Muslims......

          ''Islam is submission, submission is certainty, certainty is the affirmation of the truth, and affirmation of the truth is acknowledgement, acknowledgement is performance of what is obligatory, performance of what is obligatory is action''

          Ali Bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him)

          Islam is knowledge and action.......Islam is peace....Islam is purity....Islam is love....Islam is the truth

          ''And say "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."

          17:81

          ''Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good acceptance of Allah. that is the supreme felicity.''

          9:72

          when you love someone.....the greatest happiness for you is not for yourself to live in heavens from him......it is the fact that the one you love has accepted you....that is the greatest happiness.......


          ''My lord, I did not worship you in fear of Hell.....and not in longing for heaven......But I found you worthy of worship, so I worshiped you.''

          Ali Bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him)

          I hope you can read Islam from Islam.......and not from people who hate Islam.
        • Jun 25 2011: "Regardless, I dont think the contracition has been entirely dispeled.'
          no problem. show other contradiction.
          how many you like. and we talk it.
          please only be honest in talk.

          "While I still think the Koran will have internal contradicions "
          how you think this while you have no evidence?

          "Hypothetically speaking, lets say the Koran is free of contradictions:
          So what? "
          any book of a human specially at 1400 years ago Indeed has contradictions. this means Koran is not from human. and next step is that find source of Koran. perhaps it is God!

          "many other works of fiction are without contradiction too."
          this is impossible. any text from human has contradictions.
          human mind is not perfect and is changing, has forgetting, has errors ,...
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        Jun 24 2011: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/day.html

        Take this one for example.
        I verified it with your translation, and it corresponds.
        • J Ali

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          Jun 24 2011: Christophe,

          firstly what do you mean by 'my' (S.R?) translation?

          secondly, let us look at the first verse mentioned.... 22:47

          lets read it in full and in context......unlike the website...

          ''Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is just like a thousand years of your reckoning.''

          The prophet would tell them that if they would not believe they would be punished......so they would ask him to hasten the punishment....but Allah knows the right time to punish them..........so it then finally says that there is no difference between one day and a thousand years (thousand is the largest number in Arabic) in God's sight..and that it does not make a difference....now or later......again, this is clear in Arabic...and in context....

          so this verse is out of question......I don't understand why people quote out of context....but anyway...

          so there are only two verses now in question.......

          the second verse.... 32:5

          ''He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.''

          this verse is talking of the day of judgment...... ''then it ascendeth unto him in a Day'' this means that everything will go back to Allah....the end of the universe which is part of the Day of judgment

          bearing in mind that Day means ''period of time'' which is obvious.......this verse talks of a one thousand year period which is PART of the Day of judgment in which '' it ascendeth unto him....''

          it did not say that ALL of the Day (meaning period) of judgment was one thousand years...it was talking about one part...

          the third verse- 70:4 - talks of fifty thousand years....it is talking of ALL of judgment day...because the verses after it talk of everything that will happen on that day.....

          so the day of judgment is divide up into fifty stages each of which is like a thousand years of our counting....

          Contd....
        • J Ali

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          Jun 24 2011: That is why when our sixth Imam Jafar Al Sadiq (peace be upon him) was asked about these verses he said.....

          ''There are fifty stages on the day of judgment, each stage is like a thousand years of your counting. And then he read this verse : ''in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.''...

          I hope that answers your question...... as you can see.....we need to know Arabic and context well along with enough knowledge of the Quranic verses.... and we also need to know what the Prophet and his Holy Progeny have said before we can start claiming that there are contradictions in the Quran....

          thanks...
        • Jun 25 2011: Dear Christophe Cop,
          "http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/day.html

          Take this one for example.
          I verified it with your translation, and it corresponds."
          first you should know there is two word in Arabic and in Koran usually both translated to "day"
          they are نهار and يوم
          you easily can check then in dictionary.
          they are both translated as day. but there is difference between them.
          this is consequences of نهار in Koran:
          http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D9%86%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%B1
          and this is consequences of يوم in Koran:
          http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%85
          you can check translations.
          can you do a search and say what is difference?
          or accept my honest explain of their difference and do not claim i am interpreting Koran for my benefit.

          2)
          the translate of 70:4 is not honest in your link.
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/70:4

          your link says:
          " Unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years. "
          and they have removed the first part of verse.

          the 22:47 says the length of يوم (only in a special case means day) "with Allah" is "a thousand years of what ye reckon. "

          but the 70:4 never said length of يوم (only in a special case means day) "with Allah" is...

          so where is the contradiction?
          if second said "with Allah" then it was contradiction.
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        Jun 24 2011: @ J Ali

        So now you are doing an interpretation of the Koran... which means it cannot be taken literally.
        This means that one needs to agree to what the 'right' interpretation is... (or are there objective standards for it, and if so, what are they).

        There is no description in the Koran that says how it should be read and interpreted... or what does and what doesn't be taken literally.
        As such it is not reliable on its own and needs heuristics.
        A source of knowledge that can be interpreted in different ways is not a reliable source of knowledge.
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    Jun 26 2011: Hey want to watch a scientist argue against Muslims on these very same points? Check this out!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T5Pm7qLH50

    PZ Myers is "ambushed" by iERA, an Islamic group who goes around spreading the "science" of the Koran. If you don't know who PZ Myers is, he is the author of the blog Pharyngula http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
    • Jun 27 2011: can yourself say one rigid proof?
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        Jun 27 2011: Proof that god doesn't exist? I don't have to. The same reason I don't have to disprove the existence of unicorns; I don't have the burden of proof. You are the one making a claim, that there is this other thing in the universe.
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    Jun 25 2011: SR - With all due respect, of course....

    Which passage in the Koran says that you must defend it against all disbelievers?????? Why do you do it? For selfish reasons? To make your faith stronger? To become more knowedgeable? To understand and empathize with others? To secure a place in heaven?

    This conversation seems to have a common thread and that isthat humans have very strong beliefs!!!!! Beliefs are not truths. Truths are not facts.
    If you allow the church and state to become tangled together, you suffocate. Allow them to flourish seperately and each will benefit you and make you whole. As I've said before, "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's" It's the only way I see usa living together without being at each other's throats all the time.
    • Jun 26 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
      "Which passage in the Koran says that you must defend it against all disbelievers??????"
      why you think I am defending Koran against disbelievers?
      I am spreading truth. disbelievers are not important for me.
      truth seekers are important for me.
      truth seekers can be believer or disbeliever.
      Koran does not need defend. God defend it. please read:
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/15:9
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/41:41 , 42
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/41:40
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/72:26 ,27

      is Bible protected by God like Koran?

      "Why do you do it? "
      I am spreading my ideas. should not I?

      "To make your faith stronger?"
      also this is from my goals.

      "To become more knowedgeable? "
      yes also. I learn about other religions and beliefs.

      "To understand and empathize with others? "
      yes

      "To secure a place in heaven? "
      no. for it many other ways exist.

      "This conversation seems to have a common thread and that isthat humans have very strong beliefs!!!!! Beliefs are not truths."
      not all people are the same. and not all are not truth. but most beliefs are not truth.

      Truths are not facts."
      what you mean?

      "Allow them to flourish seperately"
      this is not God wants. God wants the opposite. if I do such it is disobeying God and it is sin.

      "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's"
      as I said before this is not for all conditions. this is for when a believer has no chance and no power against Ceasar like time of Jesus (PBUH). and a wise human does not suicide. but when there is min. req. chance then this is not what God wants.
      are you sure Jesus (PBUH) said that saying for all times and did not say only for time of suicide?

      "living together without being at each other's throats all the time."
      living together with who? with who support and kill peoples in other lands and destroy and occupy their homes? this is what Jesus (PBUH) said? living with then and God angry with you?
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    Jun 25 2011: S.R. my friend, why you are opening up same discussion again and again? If you believe something just believe it with out being cause of any harm to anyone.
    Do you want to be a preacher of Islam here in TED? If so just declare it.
    If you find The Quran to be the only book to be true and provides all solution, just go with it.
    Next time you need new way of energy development don't look in to any book of science just get it from there.
    Next time you need any remedy for a disease , don't look in to the book medical science just get it from the Quran.
    Destroy all nuclear plants your country has, and create new ones as per knowledge of The only True book to you.

    Just don't try to swallow everyone what you believe please.
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      Jun 25 2011: Let's hope that by the time he opens his 4th thread about the Koran, people will get tired of him and stop engaging him.
      • Jun 25 2011: people are free to engage which topic. and they can decide themselves.
        if a topic is not interesting it will automatically stop engaging him.
        but real facts show topic is Koran is hot.
        the past topic had 500 comments and this became very long only 2 days.
        so please let people decide freely on topic and do not impose your opinions and if you do not like a topic simple do not read it.
        also if you have any rational argument about Koran based on your own research and wisdom you are welcomed (not coping from biased and anti-islam links)
    • Jun 25 2011: Dear Salim,
      "S.R. my friend, why you are opening up same discussion again and again?"
      1- Christoph wanted to we talk about proving Koran
      2- TED admin forced past topic to be closed soon.

      each person has interests.
      "Do you want to be a preacher of Islam here in TED? If so just declare it."
      I declared before many times. I want to spread truth about God. and what he wants. Islam is general and I only want to spread true Islam.

      "If you find The Quran to be the only book to be true and provides all solution, just go with it."
      i want to spread ideas of Koran and TED is for this. any problem?

      "Just don't try to swallow everyone what you believe please. "
      people are free to hear me or not.
      if you are not interested simply do not read this topic.
      TED has enough topics for you if you are not interested in my topics.
      I do not know why I should not spread my ideas while others can. this seems discrimination.
      there are many repeated topics about atheism, evolution and other.
      why when my topics are repeated (because of forces of admin on closing) then they are bad?
      do you have this idea about all repeated topics or only Koran?
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        Jun 26 2011: Dear S.R. Ahmad

        iIf there was request to have this discussion again that's fine. I definitely don't support any force closure of any subject unless it's valgur, discriminating, attacking or racial. Neither I support any discrimination to you or anyone.

        Yes you are right I can ignore topics that I am not interested in, but just opened up this as it is the same subject where I participated , and seen the effort of Richard with which you agreed to be acquainted with Sceintfic processes so opened up again . Seems all the efforts of Richard went in vein!

        !Well that's your liberty though, it really doesn't make sense once you agree to learn reasoning and logic in scientific way than ignoring it and going back to your belief and circular logic.

        I know how sacred and unquestionable The Quran is to Islamist like you, so just making you aware; such discussion will open up lot points which you will be unable to digest.

        Have lot more discussion .....
        • Jun 27 2011: we talk much bit with no proof of any of claims.

          "ignoring it "
          ignoring what?
          that talk was not finish and was forced by admin to close. can you show a clear proof there?

          "I know how sacred and unquestionable The Quran is to Islamist like you"
          no no no.
          Koran is open to question. all can ask about Koran. Muslims are open to question.

          "just making you aware; such discussion will open up lot points which you will be unable to digest"
          i do not know what you mean.
          I am sure about Koran 1000% and I have no little doubt.
          can you say one example?
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        Jun 27 2011: Dear S.R, sorry for my poor english though those are pretty simple as I couldn't communicate right with you. Don't know how you will continue with friends like Richard whose mother toungue is English.Well by saying "Ignoring It' I echoed your suggestion of Ignoring subject of not interesting to me. Though I explained why I opened this thread.

        If you are open to face all the challenges that's fine ...... just take care no one being targeted with Blasphemy law of any country .........with something someone can't digest due to your discussion.

        As you are asking for example I am just reminding my question and your answer related to inheritance math in your other thread , which is self explanatory and guess still fresh in your mind though was deleted by admin.....

        From your many comments I understand , what you saying is all the translations of The Quran are invalid what ever may be the language (though you mentioned English specifically as that's the common language between us, I can refer translation of my language but you will not understand , as I will not if you say something in Fersi)...... To understand The Quran one must have mastery in Arabic.... am I right ?If so, what does it mean ?
        • Jun 28 2011: I agree you.
          Koran is like an ocean.
          any one can eat from it as the size his stomach (knowledge and Arabic language) but this not mean who do not know Arabic will not understand anything from Koran.

          the problem is that the people with very negative [false] Image about Islam and Koran who never read even one page of Koran come and copy paste some lies about Koran that they are very professional debates about Koran which need prophecy in Arabic language. such cases are few but those people only insist on them and leave majority of Koran.
          most parts of Koran can be understood in English.
          but if some one want to fight Koran using errors of translations there is not few options for him in translations.
          all people can read and use Koran. but who wants to discuss about Koran should know Arabic and read Koran many times. unless simple should say:
          "I do not know Koran"

          its like I do not know astronomy and physics and and i start critique Big Bang theory. or I do not know biology and I start critiquing Evolution theory.
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        Jun 29 2011: Dear S.R.I think again it's my poor English for which you are talking something else than what I raised in my last post.

        You haven't answered my question, and commented supporting something what I didn't say !!
        • Jun 29 2011: sorry please ask again clear.
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        Jul 5 2011: was loud and clear, please try again.
  • Jun 24 2011: Proving something requires truth, which in element means verifying a result. This is completely impossible with an ancient text. Even if it predicted certain things happening, this can just be put down to coincidence. No less explainable than a winning lottery ticket.

    Proof requires evidence, religion is called "faith" as it requires belief without evidence.
    • Jun 24 2011: "Proving something requires truth"
      wisdom can determine truth from false.

      "Proof requires evidence,"
      evidence is that Koran and not having conflict with wisdom and science.
      " religion is called "faith" as it requires belief without evidence. "
      religion is based on WISDOM and KNOWLEDGE. unless it is superstition .
      • Jun 25 2011: Wisdom;

        the ability or result of an ability to think and act utilizing knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense, and insight
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    Jun 23 2011: .
    The Quran is not the only book which contains "facts" about the world.

    In fact, all great religious texts contain some science and some predictions which proved to be true.

    Some examples:

    -Buddhist scriptures -- much older than the Quran -- say that you can eliminate physical pain purely by meditation. Modern medical science has shown this to be true.
    -Hindu calendars are super-scientific and based on exact calculations of the elliptic trajectories of heavenly bodies, long before the advent of telescopes
    -Taoist scriptures say that one day we will prove that a single thing can be in two different places at the same time. Quantum-mechanics proved this to be right.

    In short, it's not because the Quran contains some scientific facts, that the entire book is factual - and thus demonstrates the "fact" that "god exists". Let alone that the book itself would be written by god or his representative on Earth. This is a flawed way of reasoning.

    When I write a book containing 99.9% facts, but then I add that the world is ruled by a purple spaghetti monster, you cannot conclude that this latter fact must be true, simply because all the other facts are true.

    If you did conclude that, you are a-scientific and illogical.
    • Jun 24 2011: Dear Laurens Rademakers,
      "In fact, all great religious texts contain some science and some predictions which proved to be true"
      agree. but they all are partially truth and Koran 100% truth with no error.

      please note Koran is from 1400 years ago.
      do you know any book from 1400 years ago 99.9% true today?
      • Comment deleted

        • Jun 25 2011: "all religious books are 100% true."
          Koran says there is only one God and some say there is lots of God.
          both are truth?
          is it possible 2+2 equals both 4 and 400?
          is 1=20?

          so all are not truth.

          "1. If you play with your Arabic language, i'll play with Sanskrit language. "
          make sure I not play. enemies of Koran play. so I try show enough proof for Arabic language.

          "If you say Arabic words has no equal English translation"
          some of them not have. for example there are more than hundred word for different types of camel or sword in Arabic. how many has English? Arab has one word for each type of something.

          "4. If you say Allah is the true God, i'll say Bahama is the true God. "
          if you mean there is only one God then they are the same with two name. but Koran is 0% deviated over time while other holy books are partially deviated Intentionally.

          "5. if you say Koran is 1400 yrs ago, i'll say Vedas 5000 yrs ago."
          truth is important.
          a book that says there are 20 or more God can not be considered truth 100%.

          "6. If you talk about Avicenna, I'll bring out Newton.'
          OK and we are wise enough to know which are correct about God. each person has his own prophecy. Avesina was a philosopher. was newton philosopher?

          "its pointless to prove either your religion or my religion is the best and the truest."
          no. it has point. we as a wise human should decide about:
          1- God exist?
          2- if exist what wants from us?
          3- does God accept any kind of religion?

          "can you please interpret what i meant? "
          sorry. talk clear what you mean.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jun 26 2011: "Square root of 25 has two solutions but the absolute values remain the same. The existence of one God is impossible. Koran is not proof. "
          please do not play with math.
          clearly reply:
          is it possible one book says there is only one God exist and other book says 20 Gods exist and both are truth?

          "all holy books are 100% true except Koran."
          please do not write claims and your beliefs with no proof. if you want to do so I am not interested talk you. if it is rational logic then there is two possiblity:
          1- all holy books are 100% true except Koran.
          2- Koran is 100% true except all holy books.

          please be rational or do not talk me.
          claim is not proof.

          "for example sun setting in the muddy waters"
          I replied it in this topic. please read it. it said he "found ir" setting in ... it means address of a special place (probably near Azerbaijan). read my comment for it.

          do not misquote Koran and do not cut "found it".

          "Same with other languages."
          OK. does they have more than 100 word for same thing?

          "Nice jokes. Vedas are same 5000 yrs ago, 100 yrs ago, 1 day ago."
          i studied veds. you know northern people of India are mainly Iranian immigrants in ancients at time of ARIA at Iran. and the source of veds is poems Iranians taken to India from Iran.
          do you have a valid proof for source of vedas?

          "What was the take on Koran by Avicenna?"
          are you really read his works? he made revolution in philosophy. mr. j Ali said some books for it in this topic. please look them.

          "Leave that to kids to decide. "
          OK seems you not care about after death. so wait to see it after your death when you have no chance for decide.

          "Those are simple English words. Try again. "
          i tried. sorry my language is not English.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jun 27 2011: Dear Iqbal nazir,
          "You are degrading all other religion which at least shows some reverence to their God. "
          it is only rational. religions have grade according to wisdom. it is not by me. it is by wisdom and truth and science.

          "" Koran is 100% true except all holy books."
          Again Koran can't be, because Koran degrades God."
          please do not misquote me.
          I said logically different possibilities exist. consider all.

          why Koran degrades God.
          God had unlimited high grade in Koran.
          God should be cow to not be degraded?
          what is your define of degrades?
          do you know perfect what Koran says about God?

          "Koran is making such a senseless claim and a fictional book is not a proof, may be a good read."
          such sayings is not from a rational and polite human. so I am not interested talk such human. if you have any rational argument show it unless be silent and only hear to learn.

          "don't try to give new meanings to your Arabic word. The translations are made by experts in Arabic language. plz don't fool people. "
          open your eyes and see "found if" in translate of that verse. but enemies of Koran cut it in their links.

          "ok give the relevant word in Arabic which has 100 meanings.
          I said before. camel. or sword.

          I wish you could say one thing with rigid proof.
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    Jun 23 2011: :D

    "2- Koran said earth is round"

    how cool, it was well known to the ancient greeks :) eratosthenes even calculated its diameter. we don't even know how old that knowledge is.
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      Jun 24 2011: ^^^^^^^^^
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      Jun 24 2011: @ Krisztián ""2- Koran said earth is round" how cool, it was well known to the ancient greeks :) eratosthenes even calculated its diameter. we don't even know how old that knowledge is."

      And how cool when it does not even say so, but says it is flat. And the Sun moves around the Earth and sets in a muddy spring at night.

      Quran 18:86 "Till, when he [the traveller Zul-qarnain] reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring, ..."

      About the Flat Earth too many verses to recount.
    • Jun 24 2011: "how cool, it was well known to the ancient greeks"
      so why church said earth is flat?

      @Richard Dawson,
      "And how cool when it does not even say so"
      I do not know how much time I should explain you. I think your eyes has problems. I should ask your verification to see my comment from now on.
      please say what means these verse in Koran:?
      شرق=East
      مشارق=plural form of شرق and means Easts (many east)
      مغزب=West مغارب=Wests
      please check in Arabic text of Koran it is مشارق or مشرق
      you can easily check difference of مشرق and مشارق in a Arabic dictionary or ask an Arab friend.
      http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2837:5:7%29
      there are many verse in Koran using Easts and Wests.
      if earth is flat then should have only one east and one west. so why Koran says Easts and Wests.
      please open your eyes and read these 3 sample verse and then reply. do not forget to reply about these 3 verse. you only repeat one poor translate of one verse without notice to other verses about earth. I think this is more then 4th time I am explaining you about earth is round in earth and you only repeat your first claims as if you have not seen my replies. you made me angry by this behavior. I doubt you want to learn truth about Koran. perhaps you have other goal by repeating same thing.
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/37:5
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/70:40
      http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/7:137
      also there are many other verse in Koran showing earth is round. what you refer is only one translate that translator could not find any better word in English for مددنا that you are abusing that translation.

      "Sun moves around the Earth "
      this is lie. Koran only said sun is moving. but not around earth.
      show that verse if you are not liar.

      "sets in a muddy spring at night."
      it is for saying address by a prophet inside a story and is the sign of a special place in earth.
      you or who said this lie mixed parts from different verses to make lies about Koran.
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        Jun 24 2011: what church? before columbus set sail to find the new world, the school of salamanca, a catholic group of scholars, heard him about the plan. columbus argued that the earth can be circumnavigated, and presented calculations about the size of the earth. the school of salamanca argued that those calculations are known to be incorrect, and the actual size of the globe is much greater. the school of salamanca was spot on, columbus was wrong. luckily, they found a new continent, and thus they were saved from the otherwise inevitable death of the entire crew, and the loss of all ships.

        columbus was a lucky fool. the catholics were scientific. pity that later they turned against science.
        • Jun 25 2011: "what church?"
          I mean generally. church was controlling science at time of Koran appearance.
          please say their dates to compare with date of Koran.
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        Jun 25 2011: SR there is a simple but most important principle in science:

        If the evidence contradicts your beliefs, you must reject your beliefs. Not try and force-fit the evidence to your beliefs.
        • Jun 25 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
          agree.
          also you respect this principal about your beliefs about Koran.
          and please prove your claims instead of showing principals.
          you claimed Koran says earth is flat.
          please prove it.
          you refer to a poor translate about مددنا
          مددنا does not mean flat. it is a verb.
          please look:
          http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2850:7:2%29
          that means making a high/low land into a rough land. how it means earth is flat? flat has two meaning. one means rough one means like a plate.
          I am showing you evidences to you do not think I am justifying meaning.
          also Koran does not have only that one verse about earth.
          if you really want to see what Koran says about earth and do not have other goal you should consider all that verses together. not only one that apparently fits your goal.
        • Jun 25 2011: SR - You are right, I looked up the sun setting in a muddy spring verse and it is actually 4 verses, 18:83 - 86. My mistake.

          These verses are all together in the Qur'an and they make a complete thought. It is not as though we have brought them all together from different parts of the Qur'an. It is quoted exactly as the Qur'an has it. So why do you call it a lie?

          I am only referring to these 4 verses which are strung together chronologically in the Qur'an. No one has "mixed parts from different verses to make lies about Koran".

          It says the sun set in muddy, hot water and that Dhu'l Qurain went there.

          If that is not what it meant, and these words don't mean what they say, then please tell us what they mean.
        • Jun 26 2011: Dear Elam,
          "So why do you call it a lie? "
          I said about this:
          "Sun moves around the Earth "
          Koran when said this?
          Koran only said sun is moving. not said moving around earth.

          "I am only referring to these 4 verses"
          yes. I said that for Richard not you. I think you are a honest seeker of truth.
      • Jun 25 2011: S.R. - The verse Richard is referring to about the sun setting in a muddy spring is as follows:

        Qur'an 18:83 "They ask you about Dhu'l-Qarnain [Alexander]. Say, 'I will cite something of his story. We gave him authority in the land and means of accomplishing his goals. So he followed a path until he reached the setting place of the sun. He saw that it set in black, muddy, hot water. Near it he found people."

        S.R. you say, "it is for saying address by a prophet inside a story and is the sign of a special place in earth.
        you or who said this lie mixed parts from different verses to make lies about Koran."

        Nope. Just one verse, Qur'an 18:83. Based on the facts that we have today it's a good chance it is a lie though.
        • Jun 25 2011: "S.R. - The verse Richard is referring to about the sun setting in a muddy spring is as follows:"
          1- it is not one verse. it is 4 verse. from 83 to 86
          please see:
          http://quran.al-islam.org/query.php?t_arabic=on&t_shakir=on&t_yusufali=on&t_pickthal=on&t_ali=on&sura=18&SavedSura=1&fromaya=83&toaya=86&searchtext=

          "Nope. Just one verse, Qur'an 18:83. Based on the facts that we have today it's a good chance it is a lie though."
          Richard said:
          "And the Sun moves around the Earth and sets in a muddy spring at night."
          I meant that. it not from one verse. and where Koran said sun move "around earth"? I hope he accept his mistakes. I do not remember he accept his mistakes. only copies from links of blind and deaf enemies of Koran and seems not see my replies and repeat same thing again and again without replying my replies.
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          Jun 25 2011: SR "1- it is not one verse. it is 4 verse. from 83 to 86"

          The 4 verses tell the story of how Dhu’l-Qarneyn travelled to the place where the Sun set in a muddy spring. 18:83 - 86 :-

          83 They will ask thee of Dhu’l-Qarneyn. Say: I shall recite unto you a remembrance of him.
          84 Lo! We made him strong in the land and gave him unto every thing a road.
          85 And he followed a road
          86 Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu’l- Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness."

          What "mistake" are you talking about? Its says this guy Dhu’l- Qarneyn was given a road to the west which he followed till he came to the place where the Sun set in a muddy spring.

          And you have not refuted even one thing I have written.

          Without the shadow of a doubt the Quran says the Earth is FLAT.

          Your title is very Apt - you are trying to prove the Quran correct despite its many errors.

          PS Doesnt the mighty Allah know that the Jews DO NOT say that Ezra is the son of Allah? Any Jew or Christian or anyone who has read the Bible will tell you that. How come Allah is ignorant of the religion and beliefs of the Jews? But this can easily be explained if Muhammad wrote the Quran or many bits of it, because he was quite ignorant of much of the Jewish and Christian religions.

          9:30 "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah,..."

          Just one of the hundreds of errors in the Quran.
        • Jun 25 2011: "What "mistake" are you talking about?"
          "And the Sun moves around the Earth and sets in a muddy spring at night."
          "The 4 verses tell the story of how Dhu’l-Qarneyn "
          this refers to this part:
          " and sets in a muddy spring at night."
          this first part:
          "And the Sun moves around the Earth"
          is made of two part:
          "And the Sun moves " which is mixed from other part of Koran.
          "around the Earth" this is not in Koran.

          mistake is this:
          "And the Sun moves around the Earth" and also mixing different verses.
          also other mistakes explained in other comments.

          "And you have not refuted even one thing I have written.'
          oh!. read other comments carefully. for example you claimed دحاها has no root.

          "PS Doesnt the mighty Allah know that the Jews DO NOT say that Ezra is the son of Allah?"
          Allah knows. let talk it after earth. one by one.
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        Jun 25 2011: you don't seem to understand. church never held the position that the earth is flat. it seems that you simply ignore facts, and rely on your beliefs instead. but if you have sources that proves your point, go ahead and post them.
        • Jun 26 2011: Dear Krisztián Pintér,
          you are right. the church believed Ptolemaic model. and in Ptolemaic model the earth is round. first time Aristotle proved earth is round at 340 B.C. and before it Hellene believed earth is flat. at medieval church believed:
          1- sun is turning around earth
          2- earth is center of universe
          and church forced Galileo to accept it.
          also better to know the source of knowledge of philosophers like Aristotle were other prophets. the concept of God and souls and many philosophical concepts of Hellene always had source in prophets.
          I checked my sources saying church said earth is flat and they were poor and my references say church said sun was moving around earth. only few poor links 9weblog) said earth is flat about church.
          its good to check Koran about earth turning around sun.
          Koran says sun is moving to a special place and will stop in that place.
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/36:38
          perhaps it means the expansion of Big bang will stop one day.
          about earth moving around sun I should study it in Koran.
          also please note it was my personal mistake and Islamic references does not say it about church and it does not show any error in Koran.
          anyhow thanks for your point. I learned it from you. and I changed my idea about church about this subject. appreciate.
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      Jun 25 2011: SR we have been through all this before!

      The verse 55:17 “Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests!”, you agreed refers to the two apparent Easts and Wests during the Summer and Winter Solstices.

      The apparent Easts and Wests are from SIMPLE OBSERVATION, like the apparent movement of the Sun and Stars etc.

      Just because WE can deduce that the apparent difference of the positions of East and west from the spherical shape of the Earth and its trajectory around the Sun, does this mean that Muhammad or the 7th Century Arabs or the Quran also deduced or realised this?

      NO, They didn't have a clue!

      How do we know?

      Because EVERY verse in the Quran talking about the shape of the Earth DESCRIBES IT AS FLAT. (15:19, 20:53, 43:10, 50:7, 51:48, 71:19, 78:6, 79:30, 88:20 and 91:6 )

      Some Muslims today claim the Arabic word “dahaha”, used in verse 79:30, which means spread or stretched, is from the root duhiya which means ostrich egg, attempting to link dahaha with roundness. (The verse 79:30 literally translates: “and after that He spread out the earth”)

      Unfortunately Duhiya is not a root word and furthermore it doesn't even mean the egg of an ostrich! It means the place in sand where an ostrich lays its egg!

      After laying its egg in a hole in the sand the Ostrich spreads the sand out flat on top of it with its feet to hide it.

      Also there is another inconvenient fact.

      NOT ONCE in describing the shape of the Earth does the Quran say it is spherical or round, when it has a word for it. Surely it would be a simple matter, if the Quran wanted to say the Earth was spherical, to actually say so??

      And here is the clincher Quran 18:83-86:

      The Quran talks of a place where the Sun sets in the Earth. Not where it APPEARS to set, but a place where it ACTUALLY sets!

      “And he followed a road Till, WHEN HE REACHED THE SETTING-PLACE OF THE SUN, HE FOUND IT SETTING IN A MUDDY SPRING, and found a people thereabout."

      Why must you hide your head in the sand from the truth SR?
      • Jun 25 2011: "SR we have been through all this before!"
        agree. and I wonder you have seen my replies of not. I write short and I hope you at least do little research about my replies. I assume you have min. req. intelligence and it is not needed to I reply you by detail and only mention is enough for you. but seems I should write detail for you.

        "you agreed refers to the two apparent Easts and Wests during the Summer and Winter Solstices. "
        agree. the two max and min point for sunset and sunrise is possible when earth is round. how this phenomena happens when earth is flat? this proves Koran agree earth is round. please how it is possible if earth is flat? this is much higher than only earth is round.

        "The apparent Easts and Wests are from SIMPLE OBSERVATION, like the apparent movement of the Sun and Stars etc."
        SIMPLE OBSERVATION says there is one sunrise. how SIMPLE OBSERVATION says many sunrises? this is not rational reply. or explain.

        "NO, They didn't have a clue!"
        this is only a claim. talk by proof not claim.
        Muhammad had absolute knowledge of everything from God.
        and Koran is not from Muhammad. Koran is from God. the creator of earth.

        "Because EVERY verse in the Quran talking about the shape of the Earth DESCRIBES IT AS FLAT. (15:19, 20:53, 43:10, 50:7, 51:48, 71:19, 78:6, 79:30, 88:20 and 91:6 )"
        this is only a long list of claims with no proof. all verses about earth say it is round.
        please pick one and show your proof for that. I have not time to reply all of them here. pick one with proof.

        "the root duhiya which means ostrich egg"
        why you not ask an Arabic specialist. does not exist such thing in New Zealand?
        please do not prejudice about a word in a language you do not know. this is not professional. simply ask a specialist. or search root of that word in internet. it means both spreading out and has root meaning in ostrich egg. so it means making something spreader out in a large egg form. like pottery both flat and round. (flat by meaning of not high/low)
      • Jun 25 2011: "Unfortunately Duhiya is not a root word"
        sorry. you do not know Arabic. It has root and its root is د ح و
        The root:
        http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=dHw#(79:30:4)
        Do you accept it has root? (if no reply I consider as your acceptance)
        Also it has meaning of egg of an ostrich. Unfortunately there is few English reference. But many Arabic reference. I am honest But if you not accept it has meaning of egg of an ostrich in native Arabic language I can do search and find a valid English reference.

        "It means the place in sand where an ostrich lays its egg!"
        Reference?

        "when it has a word for it. Surely it would be a simple matter, if the Quran wanted to say the Earth was spherical, to actually say so??"
        I replied this also before. But as you do not see or forget I repeat:
        Koran is not only for one time. Koran is for all time to end of world. And should contain all knowledge and should be fresh for every time even for time of advances in future. So Koran should contain high volume of knowledge in only one book. Koran has tones of facts about earth not only earth is round. If you want to compact 1000 book into one book you have no way to use method of Koran.

        "The Quran talks of a place where the Sun sets in the Earth. Not where it APPEARS to set, but a place where it ACTUALLY sets! "
        I am sorry for you. Koran said APPEARS to set.
        Have you read that verse ever? Or only copied from a link?
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/18:86
        Do you see the word وَجَدَهَا before Sun sets?
        What means that word?
        It means "found it" sets that means APPEARS to set.
        Please verify that if you have seen this reply. And what is your reply. I hope if you are wrong honestly admit it.
        [I do not want your admit. Only do not repeat same thing again and again after my replies. But you forced me I treat you same as your behavior.]
        Also please read this about that doubt:
        http://goo.gl/zAunH

        Why must you hide your head in the sand from the truth Richard?
        you are not patient.
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          Jun 25 2011: Yes I am not very patient though some people say that with you I have had the patience of Job.

          "how SIMPLE OBSERVATION says many sunrises?" dont you see one every day? How many in a year?

          The answer to all your questions about the meaning of Daha used in that verse:

          http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur%27an

          Quran 9:30 "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah,..."

          The Jews do not say or believe that.

          Just one of the hundreds of errors in the Quran.

          Take your head out of the sand SR look at the truth - which is the Quran is just a book full of errors and wrong things.
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          Jun 25 2011: "when it has a word for it. Surely it would be a simple matter, if the Quran wanted to say the Earth was spherical, to actually say so??"

          SR - "I replied this also before. But as you do not see or forget I repeat:
          Koran is not only for one time. Koran is for all time to end of world. And should contain all knowledge and should be fresh for every time even for time of advances in future. So Koran should contain high volume of knowledge in only one book."

          How do any of these claims of yours in any way answer my question?

          SR - "Koran has tones of facts about earth not only earth is round. If you want to compact 1000 book into one book you have no way to use method of Koran."

          What? This makes no sense. And it again does not answer my question.

          If the Quran wanted to say the Earth was round it could simply have said so, instead it said things like 15:19 "And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable;.. "

          Leaving you to explain that a carpet can also be a sphere?? and ignoring the fact that mountains are neither firm nor immovable, but they shake and grow and wear down and disappear.

          PS A rectangle or a square can never be a sphere. From topology a spherical surface can never be flattened out to the rectangular shape of a carpet.
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          Jun 26 2011: Richard I seriously seriously admire your zeal!
        • J Ali

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          Jun 26 2011: RIchard, how many times do I explain that you don't understand the Quran, you don't understand Arabic.....you don't understand that the Quran says that the earth is round......and how many times have you just ignored me and ran away, commenting somewhere else......?

          You are going to keep going on and on on how the Quran says the earth is flat.....and you won't listen to what we say........you know, if I knew the Quran says the earth is shaped flat I would leave the Quran......but it doesn't.....all your claims are just very weak claims coming from someone who only understands what WikiIslam says to him....

          as I said before, there is absolutely no point arguing with you, because you are not arguing on the Quran, you are arguing on something else.....I respect that you like to argue... but I am not the least bit moved by your weak arguments.......because to me it is so clear how ignorant you are of Arabic and everything else needed to understand the Quran.....to me, it is very clear how wrong your arguments are.....

          ''When I argue with a knowledgeable person I always win, but when I argue with an ignorant person, he always defeats me....''

          I hope you can understand....
      • Jun 25 2011: ""how SIMPLE OBSERVATION says many sunrises?" dont you see one every day? How many in a year?"
        1-in this scenario there is only one east that everyday sun sets there not many Easts. so why Koran says "Easts"?

        please clearly and honestly reply:
        2- did you accept دحاها has root and you was wrong?
        3- do you still believe دحاها does not mean like egg of an ostrich?
        4- did you accept when Quran talks of a place where the Sun sets in the Earth says where it APPEARS to set?

        "The answer to all your questions about the meaning of Daha used in that verse:

        http://www.wikiislam.net"
        oh! this is your reference of truth? how do you know this is reference of truth about Koran?
        the source of wiki software is free and I can download it and register a domain and start a wiki site in less then one hour then I am admin and I can change any part of wiki as I want.
        if you look it you see clearly it is anti Islam and biased. then you use it as a reference of true information about Koran. it is a collection of lies about Islam. I am interested to know based on which proof you considered it truth.
        please leave your links and your yourself knowledge and wisdom and show the proofs of yourself not throw me an invalid link and change subject of debate.

        "The Jews do not say or believe that."
        please let first finish the debate of earth. in past I thought if you leave a debate and change debate it means you have accepted you are wrong and I did not want to insist you accept your mistake but I was false. I see you again and again repeat your first claims. also about other subjects. you claimed bacteria is asexual. and you made other claims and leaved them and changed the subject like a sparrow from one bough to another.

        please reply above 4 question honestly.

        "Take your head out of the sand SR look at the truth - which is the Quran is just a book full of errors and wrong things."
        what you mean by truth? wikiislam.net?
        so prove only one error yourself. not throwing links without your proof.
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          Jun 25 2011: 1. "Why Quran says Easts?" -

          Possibly because the observable Easts keep changing with the season, a matter of simple observation. Every primitive people observed the same thing, and they had no explanation for it except for some supernatural deity like Allah being the cause.

          2. "did you accept دحاها has root and you was wrong?"

          No. I have shown you a source where it says it does not have a root. But even if it has a root, it is of no great consequence. The word in the verse means spread or stretch.

          3. "do you still believe دحاها does not mean like egg of an ostrich?"

          Of course the Arabic is clear in this. It means to spread or stretch. Every English translation of that verse by the most eminent scholars of Arabic translate it as spread or stretch.

          Even your favourite Shia site translates it thus: "And afterwards spread out the earth" http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/79:30.

          There is NO HINT of it ever meaning an ostrich egg! Why dont YOU admit it?

          4. "did you accept when Quran talks of a place where the Sun sets in the Earth says where it APPEARS to set?"

          Of course not. The Quran is again quite clear in this.

          The sun sets into a muddy pool at a certain place at night. "when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring". Why dont YOU admit it?

          Re: WikiIslam your argument against it carries no weight. You are running down the site, without answering the arguments it presents.

          Arguments stand alone of the presenter. Arguments do not become invalid because of the character of the presenter.
        • J Ali

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          Jun 25 2011: ''Possibly because the observable Easts keep changing with the season, a matter of simple observation.''

          Again, if you had read all the verses......

          ''And We made the people who were deemed weak to inherit the easts of the lands and the wests of it which We had blessed; and the good word of your Lord was fulfilled in the children of Israel because they bore up (sufferings) patiently; and We utterly destroyed what Firon and his people had wrought and what they built.''

          7:137

          so they inherited the observable changing Easts now did they?! haha....they inherited that observable phenomena..?!! The Quran replies to you itself and it interprets itself...

          read this before you get close to translating or understanding the Quran..

          http://www.shiamultimedia.com/books/english/Ayatullah%20Jafar%20Subhani%20-%20Intoduction%20To%20The%20%20Science%20Of%20Tafseer%20Of%20The%20Quran.pdf

          Introduction - The Science of Tafsir......


          ''دحاها has no root''

          Ok.. now that is too bad to even get a reply....but anyway...if you had the least bit of knowledge on verbs in Arabic you would have known that they ALL have roots.....there is no point arguing this one.....you don't understand Arabic at all.....so don't speak of it.....


          It means to stretch.. so? Do you just want the Quran to be wrong even if it is not?! The verse means stretched which does not mean flat earth - if you knew anything on Arabic and didn't just listen to WikiIslam- stretched as in made it flat (opposite of mountainous areas)

          just like when we read in Geography books.....flat ground....flat land (أرض)....or flat city.....no one ever suspected them of saying the earth is flat.....

          this is made even clearer when we read the other verses which mention mountains right after they mention the flat earth......if you do not want to accept that- and you obviously won't because you don't want to accept anything- then don't

          ''And it is He Who spread out the earth, and placed therein firm mountains.....''

          13:3

          Contd...
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          Jun 25 2011: "It means to stretch..... so?"

          So it does not mean an Ostrich egg. Thank you for confirming this

          "Do you just want the Quran to be wrong even if it is not?!"

          No I have no desire either way. I just observe it to be wrong.
        • J Ali

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          Jun 25 2011: Richard, I never claimed it meant Ostrich egg...no one of our famous scholars even claimed this........but the fact is the Quran does not say the Earth is flat......it says the earth is round..please try to understand this well....and read my comment well....please stop arguing about this......leave it to people who understand Arabic much much better than you....who are experts in Arabic and the Quran and know all the verses by heart....you are just making yourself look ignorant by arguing.....it is like for some ordinary guy to argue with a physicist on The theory of relativity...so many mistakes will be made.... anyway,as you say ''I have no desire either way''...

          ''1 Say: O unbelievers!
          2 I do not serve that which you serve,
          3 Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
          4 Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
          5 Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
          6 You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion. ''

          Chapter 109.

          ''I just observe it to be wrong.''

          With all due respect, who are you to observe the Quran wrong? did you even observe it in Arabic?? you are observing translations.......read the link I sent you on the introduction to Tafsir please.....


          I explained my view in my response to you.......you are very very ignorant Richard......you will keep denying everything....always......there is no point in trying to argue with you..which does not make you a winner, it makes you a loser.....Richard, Remember my name.....and I will remember yours......I want to laugh at you on the Day of judgment just as you might be laughing now.........just wait.....not many years until death will hunt you down......you are probably laughing at this too....I will not argue with you again because ignorant people should not be argued.....

          Thanks.
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          Jun 25 2011: "Richard, Remember my name.....and I will remember yours.." When you die your brain which holds memories ceases to function and disintergrates. So how will you remember me.

          "I want to laugh at you on the Day of judgment."

          Though that is an unlikely scenario, that is not a very pleasant thought or desire. Why do you hate people who reason against your beliefs?

          Keep an open mind and try and be more humane and compassionate. Dont believe in fairy tales and hateful myths.

          PS "I never claimed it meant Ostrich egg...no one of our famous scholars even claimed this..."

          But your famous scholar S.R. Ahmadi claimed this. "3- do you still believe دحاها does not mean like egg of an ostrich?"
        • J Ali

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          Jun 25 2011: unlikely.....we will see.......fairy tales and myths.....fine.....lets see..

          I do not hate people....or people who 'reason' against my belief........if you even reason......

          and I will not be laughing at you out of hate.....I will be laughing just as you laugh at me.....and the Quran....disrespecting the Quran.....just like I know you don't hate me....because a human does not hate...I wish Guidance for you....

          I do not hate you now.....nor will I on the Day of judgment......I will just be so happy that I am (If God wills) in heaven and you were wrong ignorantly......you have time before you die.....because if death comes to you, you will have no place to go......and I will look at you on the day of judgment ( If God wills).....and laugh....laugh out of happiness....I will remember this......

          again, I do not hate you.....or any other human being.....I hate your ignorance..which is not you or part of you...I hate your beliefs.....but I respect your reasoning....and I listen to your reasoning very well....I am not scared of your ''reasoning'' but I just want you to read What Muslim Scholars actually say about Islam and do not go to sites like WikiIslam....you do not ask an enemy to describe his foe.......you ask the foe to describe himself..you live with the foe to see who he is.........every single thing said against Islam has been answered many many times before by many many Muslim Scholars......it is time to leave these stopping points and go straight to the destination and see what it has..which many westerners have already done....that is why Islam is the fastest growing religion...........I promise you, it is beautiful....it is peace.....it is life....it is eternal life.....It is submission to God.....which does not mean praying and worshipping and becoming a monk....it means being a human fully. living everything for God....helping humans to be close to God.....giving charity to be close to God..being a Human to be close to God....knowing who you are...
      • Jun 26 2011: Dear Richard,
        "How do any of these claims of yours in any way answer my question?"
        Read again and you will understand. Consider possible problem in yourself understanding. Its clear:
        Koran does not want to day only earth is flat. Koran wants to say many many knowledge in one book. And so should use different facts in only one word. Also it is method of Koran for protecting it from deviation. If it was a word like round it could be easily changed to flat by enemies of God who deviated Torah and Bible.

        "What? This makes no sense. And it again does not answer my question."
        It means Koran has many more information in compact form. Koran does not want to say only that earth is round. Wants to say many more in min. possible words. Like one stone two bird.

        "Leaving you to explain that a carpet can also be a sphere??"
        Yes. Sure. Assume a very large sphere with a carpet on it. There is no contradiction. But if you assume a football then no.

        "and ignoring the fact that mountains are neither firm nor immovable, "
        Not ignored. Read Koran. Koran said then we made mountains in earth.

        "but they shake and grow and wear down and disappear.'
        It is description of the end day of world not today. Please first Read Koran then spread false information.

        "PS A rectangle or a square can never be a sphere."
        Agree. Relation? Koran dis not said earth is like carpet. فرشنا is a verb. فرش is the noun means carpet. Koran said فرشنا not فرشنا . فرش is a verb meaning making a high/low land rough like a carpet. It is about roughness not about shape of carpet. The meaning of فرشنا is "making a place suitable for sitting"
        If Koran said: shape of earth is like a carpet then you was right. Please search meaning of فرشنا from any valid reference.

        "Possibly because the observable Easts keep changing with the season, "
        This is not a simple observe. It is scientific. Also this is correct only when earth is round and is false when earth is flat. This logic does not prove any error in Koran.
      • Jun 26 2011: "
        2. "did you accept دحاها has root and you was wrong?"

        No. "
        You are very head strong . Even a Arab child know it has root. Did your eyes see this link I sent for you before?
        http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=dHw#(79:30:4)
        Also:
        http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/Arabic/dHw%3AI.html
        Or simply search "root دحو" in Google.
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=root+%D8%AF%D8%AD%D9%88
        Open your eyes and read them and then honestly reply if it has root or not. (if you are honest)

        "
        3. "do you still believe دحاها does not mean like egg of an ostrich?"

        Of course the Arabic is clear in this. "
        Are you Arab. You are right about spreading out It has more than one meaning.

        "Even your favorite Shia site translates it thus: "And afterwards spread out "
        Its not shia. It has not the best Shia translations of Koran. Like Makarem translation. Yes its main meaning is spreading out. But also means in a form of a ostrich egg. It is translate not a detailed commentary. Translator wrote it for honest people. Not for who are looking for evasion to use it against Islam.

        "There is NO HINT of it ever meaning an ostrich egg! Why dont YOU admit it?"
        There is but I could not find in English. In Arabic is.
        Open your eyes:
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%D8%AF%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%87%D8%A7+ostrich+egg
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGQLGBYZMUU
        Are they Hint or not?
        But certain references are Arabic references. Why you not ask an Arab friend of yourself?

        "
        4. "did you accept when Quran talks of a place where the Sun sets in the Earth says where it APPEARS to set?"

        Of course not. "
        oh my god! What means the وجدها "found it" before "setting..."?????
        Read it again with open eyes:
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/18:86
        How you translate it?
        Please be honest.
        Please a honest human judge between me and Richard about this.

        "Re: WikiIslam your argument against it carries no weight. You are running down the site, without answering the arguments it presents. "
        They are too much. Pick one and be honest.
  • thumb
    Jul 21 2011: TO ALL THOSE INQUIRING TO KNOW WHAT QUR'AN IS ALL ABOUT.
    CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW, FOR THE COMPLETE WORK OF AHMAD VON DENFFER::

    http://islamworld.net/docs/UUQ/index.html

    AN INTRODUCTION TO THE SCIENCES OF THE QUR'AN

    NOBODY REALLY CARES WHAT YOU WILL THINK AFTER READING IT,
    BUT YOU ARE INFORMED FROM NOW ON.

    ISLAM IS BEYOND YOUR UNDERSTANDING, AND IT IS MENTIONED SO
    IN THE QUR'AN, THE HOLY MESSAGE WILL BE CLEAR ONLY TO THOSE
    WHO ARE READY FOR IT AND WHO DESERVE IT, THE HIGHER YOUR
    INTELLECTUAL AND EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE BALANCE, THE MORE
    EASIER IT IS TO PERCEIVE THE MESSAGE OF QUR'AN, THE MORE PH.Ds
    ONE LIKELY HAVE OBTAINED AND MORE PRACTICES EXPERIENCED IN
    THEIR KNOWLEDGE IN LIFE, THE MORE LIKELY ONE TO UNDERSTAND THE
    CLEAR MESSAGE OF THE UNIVERSAL ISLAM - ONE ENERGY WHERE ALL COME FROM
    AND WHERE ALL WILL RETURN, REGARDLESS OF IF THEY BELIEVE IT OR NOT, WANT IT OR NOT.
    DO NOT SAY THAT YOU WERE NOT TOLD SO.
    • Comment deleted

      • Jul 23 2011: Dear Iqbal,
        "ISLAM IS BEYOND YOUR UNDERSTANDING"
        not mean you can not understand Islam.
        it means Islam is an unlimited ocean of knowledge that if all human add their think and try and science together still can not finish knowledge of Islam and every one can learn and near God using Islam as much as he can.
        it means knowledge of Islam is much higher than capacity of any human.
        how much your stomach can drink from an ocean of wine?
        also ocean is limited but Islam is unlimited.
    • thumb
      Jul 22 2011: Sophie - Heard all of that before... It's too bad that Islam is so exclusive. Thanks for the heads up. Btw, why did you shout it? Never mind....
      • Jul 22 2011: Jim - A friend of mine, a poet, has resolved life's energy into this very simplified thought.

        "Inclusive = good, exclusive = bad." That's it.
      • Jul 23 2011: "Heard all of that before"
        all?!
    • Jul 22 2011: Thanks Sofie, that is a great link. I will get some info from it for sure.
  • thumb
    Jul 21 2011: For a moment, late in this debate, I want to stand one more time on my soapbox...

    It would be wise for all of us to step back, just for a moment, and see what has happened within this conversationGo ahead... Step back just for a moment, and be self-critical. It helps more than it hurts. What good has come from it? How has the dialog helped shed light? Where are each of us now? Reflect and learn. If you don't it will be your loss...

    I have learned much. A sincere "thank you" to all.
    • Jul 21 2011: Thanks for the advice Jim. This is a good idea, it always improves the perspective.

      It seems like there is nothing more to say after this. Just reflect, look at the other guys point of view with compassion and understanding. Thus we learn and grow. I have learned some important things from this debate. And I have accepted some revised knowledge which I did not have before.

      I'm of the belief that I can receive a spiritual message, i.e. read the Bible, Tao, Buddha etc. and make my own analysis, I can do some research and talk to other people and revise my interpretations accordingly. I like to search for the core message in spiritual thought.
      When I read the Qur'an and do the same thing. SR tells me that the words on the page mean something different than what they say and that there is a world conspiracy trying to cover up the truth that only Islam can unlock.
      If I come to a conclusion other than the 'right one' then I am listening to propaganda. If I accept what they spoon feed me, like SR has done, then I am on the right path.
      I personally find this offensive. In my opinion, SR has bought into the Islamic propaganda hook, line and sinker. He is not able to consider that this doctrine is not an accurate depiction of God. He is not willing to consider that God may not be Allah. It appears as though he is not willing or able to reason on his own.
      Convince me that there is no God and I will accept it. Convince me that Yahwey is God and I will accept it. Convince me that Allah is God and I will accept it. So far the more I study Islam the more I am convinced that Allah is not God. Thank God! This is very liberating. Islam seems to imprison its faithful in endless rituals and convoluted reasoning which doesn't stand up to independent scrutiny. The endless bickering and threats of punishment in hell also don't sit well with me. The core message of Islam is arrogant and short on spiritual awareness from my point of view, with no proof.
      • Jul 23 2011: I ask you more research. and not prejudice before enough research.
        you use words show you are not still sure.
        research and research.
  • Jul 20 2011: Many religious texts have overlying themes in philosophy, "science", and the like that are "proved" according to many religious individuals attempting to validate their faith and their own self trust in the book itself. But anyone familiar with scientific thinking knows that that's not how you "prove" things.

    You can't just prove a religious text is right because some of its predictions are somehow reflected in discoveries in modern science and such.

    The only evidence you do have at your disposal (as do other religious activists) is going to lie in pseduscience and pseudophilosophy which can't be proven. Yeah, if you have good intellectual skills you may be able to put up a good argument with certain evidence by questioning the validity and such but you may NEVER SCIENTIFICALLY prove any book is "right". Science has done a good job in its attempt to filter knowledge and feed it to humanity the right way instead of just feeding humanity something that "looks right".

    You'll be caught in an infinite regression of argumentation if you attempt to prove the Koran or any religious text for that matter with just argumentation of pseudoscientific and psuedophilosophical claims.
    • Jul 20 2011: "Science has done a good job in its attempt to filter knowledge and feed it to humanity the right way instead of just feeding humanity something that "looks right"
      yes. this shows the value of Koran. Koran will never be filtered with sciense.
      please instead of accusing me prove one error in Koran.
      any book from human has errors especially 1400 years after writing.
  • Comment deleted

    • Jul 15 2011: Hello,
      I hope health for Richard,
      please do not misquote Koran.
      http://tanzil.net/#6:101 says: God has no child and never had any spouse. does not say what you say.
      so as the default of your logic is false no need further reply.

      about http://tanzil.net/#5:46 again misquote. Koran said only Bible (the book from God to Jesus (PBUH). an not said all books of new testimonials.

      about earth and sun there is no doubt scenario of Richard was wrong and we had lots of talk please read them. no need to repeat.

      "in their rounded celestial"
      please show the ROUNDED in Arabic text of Kora. Koran said in their path. not said the shape of path.

      "Although it does not explicitly say so, it obviously means its resting place at night. "
      !!!
      not said but is obvious?!!! how is obvious? are you God who said Koran? the resting point can be tomorrow or one billions years later. anyway you have no evidence that this resting point is "at night."

      "actual setting place of the Sun in a muddy"
      Koran says the story of Zul-Gharnain (perhaps Alexander) that he FOUND SUN SETTING. found it means APPARENTLY. NOT ACTUAL. it is addressing of a place (perhaps Azerbaijan)

      "NOT ONCE in the Quran, does it talk about the Earth moving around the Sun."
      I am not sure about it perhaps said. needs reserach. but so what? Koran is not only astronomy book. also Koran said sun is moving.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 15 2011: the type of CANNOT you say is a LOGICAL CANNOT. not about ability and power.
          it means when God has no spouse so Logically impossible to God have a son. it is irrelevant to power.

          the 5:46 uses word انجيل which first is not plural. it means only one book (Bible). about translate usually Muslims do not know the difference between Bible and new testimonials and Gospel and usually consider them same. Muslims mostly know only Bible. and think like Koran there is only one book of Bible in Christianity and mostly do not know about others.
          Gospel or new testimonials or Bible all means for Muslims one thing (usually. but some know it).
          Muslims only recognize one book of Bible of time of Jesus (PBUH) as the book of Jesus (PBUH)

          "along with the previous 3 points "
          please do not mix irrelevant points of Koran to justify your claim. the story of zul-gharnain is different. it is story about what he apparently see. it is not what God says about earth.

          how it means earth is flat? please clarify.
          did you read our past comments?

          "sets in the Earth at night."
          please show me "at night" in Arabic Koran. and it is what zul-gharnan found it (apparently).

          "This is also consistent with the prevalent belief of the times"
          if you know history Koran has thousands of contradict with beliefs of that time.
          Koran is from God. not from scientists of that time.
          please first prove your claims then conclude.

          "“swim along” in their rounded celestial "
          i asked you show the "rounded" in arabic text of Koran.
          when I said the moon is OK?

          when I said Sun revolving around the centre of our galaxy ?
          please show the "rounded" in arabic text of Koran.

          "PS The sun doesnt set in Azerbaij "
          when I said it?
          you have not read past comments.
          but i repeat again:
          before continuing about earth setting in mud please read here if you are rational:
          quran.al-islam.org
          please read the commentary of that verse.
          it is what zul-gharnain apparently see.
          "where sun apparently set in mud" is a special place in earth
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 15 2011: "Why should it be talking about different things about the Sun and the Moon when it mentions them in the same sentence?"
          who said this?
          http://tanzil.net/#21:33
          Koran says all of them (sun and earth) are moving in a path (like ship moving in sea like swimming)
          but not said "rounded" orbit as Richard claimed.
          please show me 'rounded"

          "Is there in your mind just the teeniest weeniest bit of doubt that my explanation, rather than yours, is the right one? "
          depends on your logic and proof. please do not accuse me for dogma. and show your rigid proof instead of claims.

          “What would you accept as proof that the Koran is not perfectly true?”
          proof is clear and no need to play with words.

          "My explanation is much more reasonable than yours,"
          Is there in your mind just the teeniest weeniest bit of doubt that my explanation, rather than yours, is the right one?

          What is the probability in % age that you have, in your mind, to the POSSIBILITY that my explanation is the right one rather than yours?

          What would you accept as proof that your claims about Koran are wrong?

          only rigid proof shows which of us are correct.
          accusing other side to dogma does not prove anything.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 16 2011: "but it is claimed that for Allah all things are possible."
          yes all "things" are possible for God. but what is impossible is not a "thing".
          impossible does not exist logically. and is not a thing.
          also this is a reply to who believed God is a man.
          birth and child is for spices and spices are material. God is not material at all so how can be similar to material?
          God is not human nor animal not material not have time nor have place. birth has no meaning about God. birth and children has meaning for material.

          "why then is it logically possible, according to the Quran, for Mary to have a son without a spouse?"
          although she had no husband God sent an angle to pregnant her by miracle. anyway she did not got pregnant alone.

          "The Quran has the same ignorance as Muhammad and Muslims."
          Koran says the انجيل (Bible) which means the book God sent to Jesus (PBUH). if bible is not the name of book God sent to Jesus (PBUH) what is correct name? Koran talks about it. not all testimonials.
          not important what is translated. Koran means the book God sent to Jesus (PBUH) himself.
          please see:
          http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AC%D9%8A%D9%84
          specially:
          http://tanzil.net/#57:27
          this says "we gave Jesus (PBUH) the انجيل" you translate انجيل what you like . bible or gospel or other. Koran means what was given to Jesus (PBUH) from God. not apostles.

          inside testimonials the Torah and Bible was from God and other written by people later. not all is from people. each prophet (Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (PBUT)) had one book from God by revelation. and other is from people.
          although today the original books of Jesus and Moses (PBUH) are not available 100% original and are partially deviated. but today Koran is 100% what exited from mouth of Muhammad (PBUH)

          "He did not know it, "
          each prophet know the past books word by word by Knowledge from God. many christian leaders came to prophet and he told them bible better than themselves.

          I think gospel is not correct translate.
        • Jul 16 2011: "They are not irrelevant. They are from the Quran all talking about the Suns motion. "
          friend. the did you read the story of zul-gharnain?
          it is what he see apparantly when he reached to a special land. it is not saying of God. it is a story and what zalgharnin see. also God said many things quoted from evil people. it not mean it is saying from God. so it is mixing the irrelevant verses.

          for example I say:
          I went to a land where the sun never set. what mean this? this mean this is about the north pole. OK? it is also about a place. not what God says about sun.

          "The Sun and the Moon “swim along” in their rounded celestial spheres"
          oh my God! how many times I should repeat?
          please show me "rounded" in Arabic Koran. it not said rounded. it means only path.
          please do not repeat same thing before replying me.

          "the sun rests (at night because that’s when the Sun sets) in a muddy spring (according to you in Azerbaijan).
          "
          where is "at night"?
          muddy is apparently and is what a man see in a special land.

          there are other verses. but you not seem rational. first read my replies. and do not repeat same thing before disproving my replies.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 16 2011: "Why should we explain what the people of the 7th century meant by that? "
          because it means earth is round.

          "This says nothing about the shape of the Earth at all. "
          please assume two condition:
          1- earth is flat
          2- earth is round
          and check this verse matches which?
          how it is possible in flat earth?

          "This is obviously from the pagan rituals that preceded Islam when idolaters worshipped the Kaaba."
          they had 360 God and killed cow for God and stars were daughters of God. there is no similarity between Islam and Arab pagans.

          "To pray with your backside facing the Kaaba is blasphemous. "
          side is not important. obeying God is important.

          "It is perfectly logical to pray facing Mecca on a flat Earth."
          also on flat earth.

          "If you were exactly on the opposite side of the Globe, which way would you face? "
          this is defined in Islam. you can find reply of such questions in:
          www.makarem.ir

          "It is obvious the Quran does not have a clue about the roundness of the Earth."
          I wonder how is obvious with no proof. pray to mecca does not mean earth is flat.
          it is also correct in round earth.

          "Not once in the Quran, does it talk about the Earth moving at all. "
          please first read past comments carefully.

          "In answer you produced 4 verses, which YOU claimed, said the Earth was moving. In fact NONE of them do."
          this is your claim. proof?

          "No one reading those verses could come to the conclusion they are saying the Earth is moving."
          cradle is a moving object.
          Koran also uses فراش in other verse which is fixed flat bed. why used مهد cradle here? and not used فراش؟ the difference of فراش and مهد is in moving of مهد
          http://www.up2.ir/image-B9D0_4A6D04C8.jpg

          http://anobanini.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5009&stc=1&d=1286800579

          http://www.iranak.info/Download/DIRDataBase8/632928527080781250_623398_koodak-va-gahvareh.jpg
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 16 2011: "It talks of a bed or cradle. This is obviously metaphorical"
          bed has other word I explained it. bed= فراش
          مهد = cradle. not bed. even if bed it means bed of baby.

          "This is obviously metaphorical"
          yes. actually earth is not cradle. but each metaphor has a message. metaphore is not 100% meaningless.

          "the Earth as a flat firm place where roads have been laid out by Allah, for men to move on."
          why flat? when said this verse flat?

          "2. Not all cradles even in modern times move."
          usually move. specially in 1400 years ago and in Arab community. the meaning in arab language is important. because Koran is arabic.
          http://www.up2.ir/image-B9D0_4A6D04C8.jpg

          http://anobanini.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5009&stc=1&d=1286800579

          http://www.iranak.info/Download/DIRDataBase8/632928527080781250_623398_koodak-va-gahvareh.jpg

          why Koran not said فراش in this verse but said فراش in other verses? and why said مهد about earth?
          when Koran uses فراش and مهد in different verses what it means?

          no it is certain.

          "3. The meaning one gets from that verse is that "
          this is mean you get. and needs proof based on original arabic language.

          also I showed 4 verse for moving earth. not only this one.

          possibility is not important. proof and evidence is important. you want to determine truth by voting and %?
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 18 2011: "I SHOWED YOU ROUNDED!!!! did you not read the link? I pasted it too. BUT EVEN IF IT IS NOT ROUNDED SO WHAT!!! IT IS IMMATERIAL!! FORGET ROUNDED!"
          I can not see the "rounded". where is it?
          the Arabic world is فلک which means path or orbit (not necessarily rounded, any shape) like the path of ship in sea. (predefined)
          also it is not IMMATERIAL because you made a scenario about Koran based on such false interprets of Koran.

          "That is what you can see with the naked eye."
          where is rounded?
          yes Koran says sun is moving. also science says this (see J Ali link). but Koran not said sun is moving around earth.

          "he found it "
          what means this:
          1- it is what he (zul-gharnain (perhaps Alexsander) see not what Koran say. this is a quote (can be false).
          2- found it means apparently. like: I traveled where sun never set (pole)
          please be honest and do not try to prove something with misinterpret. use some rigid proof and honestly leave such kind of proof. what are you looking for? disproving Koran in any method? (even irrational method)

          "The place of the setting of the Sun. Allah is saying this."
          no if you read the story complete the place is a country. did you read the commentary from quran.al-islam.org?

          "The place of the setting of the Sun. Allah is saying this."
          please do not interpret as you like.
          Allah said he reached a place that there he FOUND IT setting in mud. it means in that place he see the sun setting in mud. in that country the nature was like this. like north pole that sun never set.
          what means found it setting?

          "He is not talking about the Torah because he says that's what preceded it - he is talking about the Gospel which was not given to Jesus,"
          in many verses talks about the book given to Jesus (PBUH)(انجيل. (gospel is a translate (possibly wrong))
          please reply what is the name book Jesus (PBUH) himself received from God?
          Koran clearly says "book received from God".
          please check other translates.

          mistake should have proof.
          also check all translates.
        • Jul 18 2011: http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedraza/5:46
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/5:46
          not all translated Gospel.
          also what is difference of bible and Gospel?
          Jesus (PBUH) himself had a book and Christians at time of life of him had that book and used it but when he disappeared the church collected all books of Jesus (PBUH) from people and until year 150 people had not Book of Jesus (PBUH).
          then at year 150 church made 4 versions of Bible and distributed it to people.
          Koran means the Book at time of Jesus (PBUH) himself. not books written after him.
          can you clear me what is different of Bible and Gospel?
          and do you agree Jesus (PBUH) himself had a book from God? what happened for that book?
  • thumb
    Jul 14 2011: Hi S.R. Ahmadi,

    You have opened a dialogue to "prove the Koran" and you have said you are willing to accept "proof" that the Koran is NOT true.

    Then, you demonstrate a deliberate and determined unwillingness to consider any "proof" that is presented to you.

    So, let me ask you a simple question (and please provide a simple, concrete, unqualified answer):

    What would you accept as proof that the Koran is not perfectly true?

    If your answer is, "Nothing - the Koran cannot be proven to be untrue - it is perfect," or if your answer is, "I am willing to accept 'anything' that proves it is untrue [while you secretly hold to the belief that nothing can prove it is not true] then I suggest you are being deceptive in your invitation to discuss this topic openly and objectively.

    The kind of answer I am looking for from you is: "If you can find one factual error in the Koran, I will accept that it is not perfectly true," or, "If you can find one discrepancy between science and the Koran, I will accept that it is not inerrant," or, "If you can find a discrepancy between how the Koran represents another religion and how that religion represents itself, I will accept that the Koran is not inerrant."

    In other words, in concrete, unambiguous, unequivocal terms, tell us what you would accept as proof.

    Please do not "deflect" by responding to something other than this very simple question:

    My Dear S.R. Ahmadi,

    What will you accept as proof that the Koran contains mistakes, errors and is not "perfect?"
    • Jul 14 2011: Hi Thomas,
      "What would you accept as proof that the Koran is not perfectly true?"
      please PROVE any kind (scientific historical rational or other) of error in Koran.
      or "If you can find one factual error in the Koran, I will accept that it is not perfectly true," or, "If you can find one discrepancy between science and the Koran, I will accept that it is not inerrant,"

      please note me and you both are human and all humans have same logic. unless things like math not existed.
      so please do not challenge me what is proof.
      we all know what is proof.
      I only mean do not believe anything TV feed you or links feed you are true.
      I say:
      leave your links and yourself read Koran and do a research then show your own proof.
      copy&paste from an invalid link with no think is not proof.
      the world is spreading propaganda against Islam and Koran and western people believe them.
      I say:
      for a moment assume all you heard about Islam is wrong and start your own research based on valid references. ( I do not say believe anything my links say. accept only your own think and wisdom but use valid sources and do not believe anything TV show you like Bin Laban Aisha etc...)
      www.al-islam.org
      www.shiamultimedia.com/englishbooks.html
      www.makarem.ir

      I think you know the news about "the news of the world" magazine.
      http://www.presstv.com/usdetail/188911.html
      this is only one example.
      people are grown up with such media. they are trainer of children.
      • thumb
        Jul 14 2011: Hi S.R. Ahmadi,

        The reason I ask you what you will accept as proof is that you seem completely unwilling to accept any "proof" that is offered to you. I have seen many very simple examples that are very clear. And you reject them. I am not going to repeat them because there is no reason to believe you will accept them simply because I am writing them.

        I know of several errors in the Koran and, again, I have no intention of telling you what they are because I already know how you will respond: You will say that my "sources" are wrong - or my interpretation is wrong - or that the error does not appear in Arabic - etc - etc - etc.

        You discount all "proof" by saying things like it it is not proof I only think it is proof, or some such thing.

        I suspect that no matter what "proof" is presented to you, you will simply say it comes from "an invalid link" and then you will direct me to a "valid link."

        The thing is, S.R. Ahmadi, that, for you, any link that is critical of the Koran is an "an invalid link" and the ONLY links you accept as "valid" support your belief.

        This is intellectual naivety.

        This is what I think: You are simply unwilling to accept there are any errors in the Koran so there is no point in trying to prove to you there are any. Again, you will simply say the link (or the person) who has provided the proof does not really know what they are talking about.

        I also think you are using this discussion as a means to get people to read the Koran and the 'valid links' that you are so helpful in providing because you believe that if a "true seeker" reads them he or she will embrace Islam.

        In other words, you have no intention of changing your mind - no matter what proof is provided. And you think you might find a seeker or two by "pretending" to engage in an open and objective discussion.

        This, as I am sure you can see, is a form of deception. Perhaps it is self-deception. But it is deception nonetheless.

        Now, I would not try to prove anything .. to you.
        • Jul 14 2011: Dear Thomas Jones,
          all you said does not prove Koran has error.
          why you think any I reject anything about Koran?
          also what is problem reading my links?
          do you fear reading them?
          I think you are fearing from my links.
          human is enemy of what do not know.
          yes I say different replies like this link is not valid or this translate is not correct. but I show proof for my reply. i do not only say your interpret of Koran is false. if my reply has not enough proof you can challenge my reply.
          anyway you are free to prove or not prove any error in Koran.
          but what I see from you is only insisting on your beliefs and prejudice about Koran.
          I prefer method of Elam,
          he do research and show some questions without prejudice and we continue talking.
          you do not show any proof and only repeat your beliefs about Koran.
          this method will not lead you in truth.
          I only can say you have prejudice about me.
          if no one showed me a rigid proof it does not mean I not will to accept any proof.
          I accepted some proofs from ted users especially about Evolution.
          but Koran is from God and God has absolute knowledge and his book has no error.
          this is not my fault no one can disprove Koran. this is power and knowledge of God.
  • Jul 8 2011: This discussion is very tiresome, and yet, here I am weighing in.

    I am reminded of a chat I had with a Sudanese friend in Khartoum a few years back. We were talking about his Ramadan fast during which he could not eat until after sundown. I made what I thought was a good-natured observation and asked what a Muslim would do at the one of the Earth's poles should Ramadan fall during a time when the sun would not rise or set. My friend was not the most educated man and was not aware of this phenomenon. He got very angry and concluded that either I was wrong, was lying, or that the world was not round after all, anything to preserve the literal truth of his faith. It was an awkward moment.

    I would also like to respond to a few postings saying that we English speakers have no business responding to Mr. Ahmadi because we cannot read the Koran in Arabic. Since Mr. Ahmadi chose to post in English to a predominantly English-speaking audience, he must have expected to be able to make a compelling case and defend it in English. Claiming that we have no standing to argue is an inane point.

    It is clear, however, that a language barrier (among other things) is interfering with the progress of the discussion. Mr. Ahmadi and Mr. Dawson seem to be speaking past each other without being able to agree on what the cited texts say. It would be helpful if Mr. Ahmadi would provide English translations that he accepts as accurate.

    Thanks for listening.
    • J Ali

      • +1
      Jul 8 2011: '' I made what I thought was a good-natured observation and asked what a Muslim would do at the one of the Earth's poles should Ramadan fall during a time when the sun would not rise or set. My friend was not the most educated man and was not aware of this phenomenon. He got very angry and concluded that either I was wrong, was lying, or that the world was not round after all, anything to preserve the literal truth of his faith. It was an awkward moment.''

      Hi Ward,

      If indeed this story is true....then I also agree with you that it is truly awkward... your observation is very good-natured and it has been studied by the scholars of Islam...they are not scared of it...maybe it was just your friend's ignorance...Islam does not support ignorance at all.....

      The answer to your question is answered by Islamic jurisprudence which says that if he is in a place where the sun does not rise or set for a very very long time, e.g. the north pole... then when Ramadan begins, fasting becomes obligatory on him, but since he is in a place where he cannot fast...he must leave to another place where he can...either in Ramadan or after it is finished... if he cannot leave to another place then he doesn't have to leave...because the Quran says

      ''......and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion.....''

      22:78

      If leaving his place just to fast is a great difficulty then he simply doesn't have to leave or fast... Islam doesn't want a person to do the impossible...it wants to keep everything easy for its followers...

      Hope that answers your question...
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 9 2011: Dear Iqbal,
          first i do not know why all your comments are related to sex. do you have any sex problem?
          are you married?

          but about your doubt:
          in Islam rules the need for sex is not considered as حرج (difficulties) people can be patient on sex while having no serous problem.
          such sever need that this father (perhaps Indian) has made for himself is like need for drug or cigar that can not be considered a rational need.
          but in emergency conditions some rules of Islam changes. for example in Islam easing the meat of dead animals (without slaughter, for example naturally dead) is banned. but in emergency conditions it is allowed.
          or in war conditions there is not needed to Muslims do pray in usual form. they even can do pray at sleeping position.

          difficulties in that verse means problems that are really very hard or dangerous or impossible to do for a person and this not include need for sex.
          also marriage is very recommended in Islam and God ordered (not recommended) to parents and believers to make marriage for their youngs and God promised if they are poor I make then needless:
          http://tanzil.net/#24:32
          helping youngs to marriage is one of the best rewarded works by God and Muslims usually help and give money and needed accessories to people who need marriage but can not.
          also marriage in soon ages is recommended in Islam.
          prophet said:
          "daughter is like fruit on tree. if it be picked later than its time will be expired."
    • Jul 8 2011: Dear Ward,
      in Islam each Muslim should be professional in Islamic knowledge or select a professional (marja) to ask him.
      so lets ask a professional:
      http://english.makarem.ir/estefta/?mit=451

      the explain in Persian language is more detail:
      http://persian.makarem.ir/compilation/book.php?bcc=28783&itg=7&bi=242&s=ct

      different Marja may have different reply (fatwa) but mostly they say:
      they people have day and night (while actually is day) according high and low level of sun. anyway they need sleep. and pray should be done according to that time of day ad night. (time is important not darkness)

      some other say you can select a point on earth as reference and pray and fast according it.

      some say pray and fast is not necessary for you.
  • Comment deleted

    • Jun 26 2011: "I'm coping the source here."
      do not copy before research. many links have false information.

      the books Muslim and Bukhari are not 100% correct and have errors.
      the marriage age of Aisha is studied and it was 15-17 years at marriage.
      did you read all Hadith books? did you read all the books of Bukhari and Muslim? or you only insist in some errors in them without any notice to many other valid Hadith books?
      this is clearly collected by a biased man.
      the real age of Aisha was 15-17 years at marriage.

      what you copied are collection of some errors in among ocean of information and books saying other things.
      what is your goal?
      you want to seek truth?
      or you want to find some errors in Islam and stick to them until end of your life.
      if you are honest please study Islam from valid sources and then you know truth. not to like a house fly go and sit on a smelly thing and leave flowers and then say I do not see any flower here.
      I ask you watch this and do not repeat same thing again and again after my replies again and again.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt7vS7kxc50
      please be honest and if you REALLY are not seeking truth please not talk me.
  • Comment deleted

    • thumb
      Jun 24 2011: lol Matthieu, our friend SR is at it again having been disproved so many times.

      Elam Waltzing has taken the claim that the Quran hasnt been changed apart above.

      The Verse of self praise 2:23 claims "And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful."

      The challenge in this verse is followed, in the very next verse, by the affirmation that such a task is impossible, and threatens with "the Fire whose fuel is men and stones" those who disbelieve this verse. lol

      "But if ye cannot - AND OF A SURETY YE CANNOT - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith."

      The reasoning of Islam is circular indeed.

      If you're a Muslim, you believe that the Quran is the word of God, and since it is the word of God it is without error. If it is without error then the verse that you cannot "produce a surah the like thereof" is also true.

      If it is without error then all the errors and contradictions in the Quran are not errors or contradictions, as a matter of faith.

      They are just errors of translations, understanding etc. The Quran does not say the Earth is flat and the Sun is a small object that moves around the Earth and sets in a muddy spring at night. etc etc...

      We have been through this before. This belief above is hard wired into their thinking like the 3 laws of Robot, for Robots.
    • Jun 24 2011: "growth of the foetus description is completely wrong"
      proof? I replied you about that. did you read my reply? مضغه is a specific word in Arabic and has no special English equivalent and usually is translated as "some thing like a small flesh" or "some thing like some chewed flesh".
      I ask you study about meaning of مضغه

      http://quran.al-islam.org/query.php?t_arabic=on&t_shakir=on&t_yusufali=on&t_pickthal=on&t_ali=on&sura=23&SavedSura=1&fromaya=14&toaya=&searchtext=
      http://quran.al-islam.org/query.php?t_arabic=on&t_shakir=on&t_yusufali=on&t_pickthal=on&t_ali=on&sura=22&SavedSura=1&fromaya=5&toaya=&searchtext=

      "Richard Dawson has found some contradictions."
      he does not accept evidence that Koran says earth has more than one east and west and this means earth is not flat and only repeats a poor translate. only repeats same things even if I show tons of evidence Koran says earth is round.

      "Elam Waltzing has taken the "
      why you not wait some to I reply and conclude before my reply? it seems you are not seeking truth about Koran. I do not know what are you looking for.

      what you mean by using lol? this is not sign of a rational and respectful argument.

      "The reasoning of Islam is circular indeed. "
      the reason is that Islam has many deaf and blind enemies that not see truth (friends of Satan) and can you show any one in history made a book like Koran and won this challenge?

      "If you're a Muslim, you believe that the Quran is the word of God"
      a Muslim accept Koran by wisdom and rational argument and evidences.

      "If it is without error then all the errors and contradictions in the Quran are not errors or contradictions, as a matter of faith."
      also "Koran says earth is flat" is a faith.

      "They are just errors of translations,"
      reply about those 3 verse.
      • thumb
        Jun 24 2011: ha you're dreaming if you think I'm going that road again! Might as well shout at a brick wall. Good luck with your crusade.
        • Jun 25 2011: TED admin closed that topic and this topic is mainly for Christoph derived from this topic:

          "Could you pick out 1 proof out of the Koran (preferably the one that you think is the best) for its validity? We can then discuss about it (maybe in another topic?) and see if it holds and under what assumptions."
          http://www.ted.com/conversations/1602/why_don_t_people_believe_in_go.html?c=270185

          "Good luck with your crusade."
          this is a peaceful talk for truth. but Richard makes me angry.
        • Jun 25 2011: "You are committed to the idea that it is perfect truth"
          simply prove I am wrong.

          "I don't see any evidence whatsoever that you are open to changing your commitment to this idea."
          how I change when I do not see any evidence against Koran? so you think I am not open to change. first show me evidence then I change. not first I change then you [perhaps] show evidence.

          "and I suspect you may have abandoned the threads about science."
          it is because of TED admin closing topics before their original time set by author of topic.

          yes Koran has priority for me. but I spend time for other.
          about your comment about hypothesis and theory the topic was closed after your comment. in Persian is the same but I read mostly English about science.

          anyway if you can prove any error in Koran you are welcome. (prove. not coping claims)
        • Jun 26 2011: "Please tell me now how you know what is true about reality. "
          first by wisdom I compared different ideologies. but wisdom only can compare and has errors and is not perfect. when by wisdom and science we selected best way which fits perfect with wisdom and science then we ensure it. but if we found any conflict in it with wisdom or science we doubt it and search for better search. but always we should research other options to make sure we have selected best choice about truth. but I ensure you if you select TRUE Islam you can reach 100% certainty based on your try and research. but not all Muslims do enough research and not all Muslims are true Muslim. today Islam has many cults and not all are true. I have not found even one conflict of any kind in Shia Islam and Ali (PBUH). after prophet true Islam was restricted and simple people can not find it without research.

          "I use the scientific method. "
          its limited only to nature and material. its not about truth. each work needs suitable tool. for truth you should wisdom first. not only science. but science is good for comparing religions and knowing nature. truth can not be found by ONLY science.

          "No one can enumerate a list of all concrete facts about a domain. "
          who has absolute knowledge can.

          "My knowledge is only useful if I can share it with others and they can verify it."
          knowledge is not only empirical and materialist science. also wisdom leads knowledge.
          if you mix wisdom and science you see nature has a creator and designer.
          http://www.al-islam.org/mufaddal/
          who has no science will not understand it. science alone has limits and lacks.
          wisdom is not True knowledge. any healthy adult human has wisdom. but in different levels. wine is corrosive to wisdom. wisdom is logic and controls human from doing anything likes to do. what says you: "do not do that evil deed" is your wisdom. wisdom+science leads to knowledge. science without wisdom is only a database of information. wisdom is built in human.
        • Jun 26 2011: "My UTR tells me that Adam and Eve are myths."
          this is normal. but your UTR is not perfect and contains false information and needs more and more research.
          *** knowledge is more than you cal learn it all. so select from knowledge its most beneficial***

          "I think my UTR is a better guide to reality than your book."
          after years of research I found Koran is 100% truth. not one morning I decided Koran is truth.
        • Jun 26 2011: "the more I believe the correct word is "delusion""
          its only your believe.

          "Please be aware that all such claimed knowledge of supernatural phenomena is purely subjective and is entirely dependent on cultural factors. "
          I disagree about Islam. Islam is different. do you know Muhammad had 70 war mostly with Arabs because he had conflict with their cultural factors. how you explain this conflict?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_Muhammad
          I agree you unless about Islam.
          also Islam is mixed in many regions with culture. but still it not mean Islam is totally man made. you do not know Islam and compare it with old and deviated religions.

          'If you grew up in a predominantly Christian country you would likely be Christian. "
          perhaps. I happy it not happened.

          not all humans follow their fathers beliefs blind.
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/21:54

          "Michael Shermer's"
          he is correct about old and deviated religions and man made religions. but Islam is not like them.

          "For you are absolutely convinced you are right, and the only reason you have engaged in conversation with me (or anyone here on TED) is the hope of converting me (us) to your belief. In my case, I assure you that isn't going to happen."
          when people can not talk rationally say such things.
          it is not my Goal. only your think.
          I want to spread truth about God and its not important for me who accept and who not accept.
          also conversion in is happening specially i Europe heavily if you want or not want.
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/9:33
          it is will of God and no one can stop it.
          please wait and watch. Europe is becoming Muslim.
          no one can stop truth.
        • thumb
          Jun 30 2011: "ha you're dreaming if you think I'm going that road again! Might as well shout at a brick wall. Good luck with your crusade." I actually laughed out loud a lot to this one!
      • Jun 29 2011: SR - If you think the growth of the fetus description in the Qur'an is right, tell me how long does the Qur'an say it takes from conception to birth?
  • thumb
    Jun 23 2011: Please describe the usefulness proselytizing.
    I'm curious to hear your answer.
    • Jun 24 2011: what you mean?
      please ask clear to I describe.
      • thumb
        Jun 24 2011: What is the usefulness of talking about the Koran to people with an intent to sway their beliefs?
        Is it a moral obligation?
        • Jun 24 2011: "What is the usefulness of talking about the Koran to people with an intent to sway their beliefs? "
          nothing but wasting time.
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/13:31

          but also there are people seeking truth. they are my cause for writing.


          "Is it a moral obligation? "
          yes. a good human should spread truth.
  • Comment deleted

    • Jul 23 2011: Dear Iqbal,
      "prophet (a sex addict)"
      Muhammad (PBUH) was not a sex addict. proof: 1- he married late and before marriage was poor and had not woman. 2- his first wife was not young. 3- he had only one wife until his first wife died. after death of his first wife (when himself was no longer young) he had only one young wife because of political reasons not for sex. also she was not child. she was adult and her age is not clear in history but most probably she has been 15-17 at marriage. yes some references say 6 years. but all references should be considered not only one. some references say more than 20.

      'Only the religion of Koran has such a concept of Allah who collide with an uneducated, polygamist, child lover prophet. no respect for other gods of other religions."
      uneducated was to God prove knowledge of prophet had not any human source.
      "polygamist"
      what is problem of polygamist? it is allowed in Islam and Koran. a Muslim can have up to 4 wife but has very hard terms and a Muslim prefer 1 because of hard terms. In Iran polygamist is very rare.
      about prophet it was especial orders of God and not for all Muslims. and his wives were widows and each case has especial story. i asked you many times study about his marriages. I can not explain all here.
      because you do not like polygamy so it should be banned by God? you decide for God?

      "child lover prophet."
      this is false. no proof in valid history.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt7vS7kxc50

      "no respect for other gods of other religions."
      no Koran respect God of Judaism and Christianity and God of prophets like Abraham and so on. but not consider cow and deity and stars and so on as God.

      "no true religion in the world asks its followers to "lie" under certain circumstances. "
      lie in Islam is great sin and not ask. but allowed only in 3 especial condition. not always.

      "no true religion in the world ask its founder to marry a child."
      agree. and not asked Islam. show evidence from Koran.
    • Jul 23 2011: "no true religion in the world ask its founder to marry many widows."
      Islam not asked. but allowed in special conditions with hard terms.
      do you know other true religions? Buddhism is not true religion. but Christianity and Judaism are true religions from God. are you sure they ban it? not church. but what Christ said.

      "no true religion in the world ask its founder to marry wife of another man."
      yes. also Islam. Islam not allow it. unless wife divorce and spend a special period of time then can marry new man.

      "no true religion in the world ask its followers to fight with enemy."
      fight in Islam has many rules and in especial cases like defend Islam allow fight. if some want to kill your family and friends what you do? stand and watch? or defend?
      any religion not allow fight when needed is stupid. please first understand fight rules in Islam.
      fight potentially is not bad. hos to use it can be bad. its like knife.

      "no true religion in the world promises its followers houris (prostitutes?) in heaven."
      so you do not know true religions.

      "no true religion in the world treats its Allah as a pimp."
      virgins are reward of believers. no problem. are you jealous?
      what cows give their believers as reward? dung? milk? meat? [sorry when you do not respect my prophet I talk so]

      "a Greek thinker had arrived at the same conclusion long before. don't make him a prophet of Allah."
      yes. and I did not claim so. thousands of wonders of Koran together prove it. not only one.

      ""Koran said sun will turn off one day"
      ok i agree."
      now people know it. please consider it in context of tribal Arab of 1400 years ago. they had not NASA.

      "" Koran says sun is moving"
      what is the big deal here? a child of 1 yr old could say that."
      child say apparently. but actually sun is moving. not relative.

      "are you talking about the shouting from the loud speakers daily morning"
      it means defiance ; gage to people make a verse like Koran. no one in history could until know. even great arab poets
    • Jul 23 2011: "if you marry many women it is easy to tell about all reproductive function."
      human eye has not microscope and sonography.

      ""Koran may times claimed you can not make a book or a chapter like Koran"
      ask a monkey with a typewriter."
      no worthy to reply. I doubt you one day learn to talk respectfully. fear the punishment of God.
      this is clear in history that no one could during history although many Arab poets and others tried
  • Jul 19 2011: This is a claim you made in your opening statement.
    "But Koran has not even one internal contradiction or conflict."

    This is a claim you make in a response.
    "only one word of Koran has conflict in text but is not important in meaning."

    Lets assume Koran is truth. Mans interpretation of Koran is fallible.

    I believe you have doubts. If you were complete with your own thoughts, you would not find it so compelling to prove it to anyone else. I too am on the fence and am waiting for someone to convince me I'm wrong. It is the nature of man to seek answers.

    The truth is as long as you are happy and I am happy then we are happy. You and I will meet our ends one day. Let's let our truths be realized then. Peace
  • Comment deleted

    • Jul 18 2011: Dear Ed,
      first please look at this long list:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions
      I agree "when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion"
      but this is not true about Abraham religions.
      Abraham religions have not human sources.
      but other human made religions like atheism and Buddhism and so on you are correct.
      believing that God not exist without proof is delusion.

      what you mean by TRUE potential of the Koran? example?
  • Jul 16 2011: S.R. Ahmadi,

    Please give your thoughts on the following excerpt taken from an Islamic reference:

    "The common notion of abrogation, that is, canceling of one law or code by another, is based on the idea that a new law is needed because of a mistake or shortcoming in the previous one. It is clearly inappropriate to ascribe a mistake in law-making to God, Who is perfect, and whose creation admit of no flaws.

    However, in the Quran, the abrogating verses mark the end of the validity of the abrogated verses because their heed and effect was of a temporary or limited nature. In time the new law appears and announces the end of the validity of the earlier law. Considering that Quran was revealed over a period of twenty-three years in ever-changing circumstances, it is not difficult to imagine the necessity of such laws.

    It is in this light that we should regard the wisdom of abrogation within the Quran:

    "And when we put a revelation in place of (another) revelation and Allah knows best what He reveals -- they say: you are just inventing it. Most of them do not know. Say: The Holy Spirit (Gibril) has revealed it from your hand with truth and as a guidance and good news for those who have surrendered (to God)" [16:101-102]"

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2656
    • Jul 18 2011: Dear friend,
      I explained this here:

      http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html

      please read carefully.
      it is not changing mind in God. it is changing command according to change in context of human life.

      example:
      people came to home of prophet and sit there and not go out. and prophet did not say them go your home. they only sit and not any question or useful talk. only wasting time.
      so God sent a verse and said:
      who wants to visit prophet should pay one coin.
      then no one visited prophet unless Ali. Ali came to prophet and asked him questions and learned the knowledge from God about every thing.
      then God again sent a verse:
      if you want to visit prophet not need to pay money any more. the past rule is cancelled.
      I hope you got it.
      it is in fact teaching to people. not God has problem.
      • Jul 18 2011: So even if you convince me of everything else, I have to be certain that the world has changed much more in the 1400 years since the Koran was written than the 23 years it took to write it. The logical conclusion to this is that MANY, MOST, THE VAST MAJORITY of the Koran needs to be abrogated and is therefore not relevant to modern day man. This makes the book anything but perfect.

        I will go into more detail as to how the teachings of the Koran got progressively more hostile as the book reaches the end. The earlier teachings were much more about love and the later were much more about smiting enemies of Islam. There are clear contradictions in the Koran. This proves your #9 point wrong.

        By the way, you didn't convince me of anything else concerning the perfection of the book in question.
        • Jul 20 2011: when God sends a new religion/book/prophet it means the past religion is not working more and needs a new original and updated version.
          Koran is update and fresh until end of world.
          can you show some example that needs abrogated?
          also Koran has many verses of Love. but people do not know it well.

          'There are clear contradictions in the Koran."
          example? the claim does not prove.

          this is not for convincing the perfection. it needs your interest and time and more study.
      • Jul 20 2011: "THE VERSE OF THE SWORD
        The verse that Abrogated (nullified) the Peace Verses.

        An example of the abrogation: There are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience that have been cancelled and replaced by one, single verse. This verse is called the verse of the sword:

        "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." Surah 9:5

        Verses that support the verse of the Sword

        1) “Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of believers” (Surah 9:14).

        2) “O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque” (Surah 9:28).

        3) “The Jews call ‘Uzayr a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!” (Surah 9:30).

        4) “O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell – an evil refuge indeed” (Surah 9:73).

        5) “O ye who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him” (Surah 9:123)"
        • Jul 20 2011: please read some verse before and after it.
          fight in Islam has many rules and is not for any kind of non Muslims.
          this is not fair picking only sword verses.
          please consider all and understand in which conditions Islam allow fight.

          also wars after prophet with pagan Arab emperors in the name of Islam is different of wars of prophet himself.
      • Jul 20 2011: "Some of the verses abrogated by the verse of the Sword:

        1) “Those who believe (in the Qua’an), and the Christians and the Sabians – any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve” (Surah 2:62).

        2) “Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplish his purpose” (Surah 2:109).

        3) “But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them – barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind” (Surah 5:13).

        4) “Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself no protector or intercessor except Allah: if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in rejecting Allah” (Surah 6:70)."
        • Jul 20 2011: no verse is abrogated in Koran.
          they are apparently conflict verses. but they are defining different conditions and different rules. all verses should be considered together and any action should have conflict with even one verse of Koran. unless it is not Islamic. the verses are limitations for actions of Muslims and define how Muslims should behave. but few Muslims obey all verses of Koran. usually Muslims pick the verse fitting their benefit.
      • Jul 20 2011: "5) “But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah” (Surah 8:61)

        6) “And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury); but say, ‘We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)” (Surah 29:46).

        7) “And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): worship none but Allah” (Surah 2:83).

        8) “Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that we are sincere (in our faith) in Him?” (Surah 2:139)

        9) “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors” (Surah 2:190)

        10) “But fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there” (Surah 2:191)

        11) “But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful” (Surah 2:192)."
      • Jul 20 2011: "12) “But there is no compulsion in religion” (Surah 2:256).

        13) “So if they dispute with thee, say: ‘I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me,’ And say to the People of the Book and so to those who are unlearned: ‘do ye (also) submit yourself? If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message” (Surah 3:20).

        14) “Let not the Believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers; if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourself from them” (Surah 3:28).

        15) “Those men – Allah knows what is in their hearts; so keep clear of them, but admonish them, and speak to them a word to reach their souls” (Surah 4:63) .

        16) “He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: but if any turn away, we have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds)” (Surah 4:80).

        17) “But Allah records their nightly (plots): so keep clear of them, and put thy trust in Allah” (Surah 4:81).

        18) “Then fight in Allah’s cause – thou art held responsible only for thyself” (Surah 4:84).

        19) “Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore, if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of ) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)” (Surah 4:90).

        20) “O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the Symbols of Allah, nor of the Sacred Month” (Surah 5:2)."

        http://www.islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml
        • Jul 20 2011: I agree you.
          but it is not abrogated.
          verses of Koran totally should be done. not only one that fit benefit.
          this is problem of Muslims. not Islam and Koran and God.
          Muslim is different of Islam.
          Islam is a perfect instruction but Muslims are not perfect.
          the people Koran was sent to them did not have value of Koran.
          Koran also say this:
          http://tanzil.net/#47:38
          this verse shows God is not satisfied from Arabs that God sent Koran to them and God wants to substitute them with another people to use Koran better.
      • Jul 20 2011: S.R. Ahmadi,

        You're just not telling the truth.

        " no verse is abrogated in Koran.
        they are apparently conflict verses. but they are defining different conditions and different rules"

        Abrogation is taught in Islam. Explain: "And when we put a revelation in place of (another) revelation and Allah knows best what He reveals -- they say: you are just inventing it. Most of them do not know. Say: The Holy Spirit (Gibril) has revealed it from your hand with truth and as a guidance and good news for those who have surrendered (to God)" [16:101-102]" if it is not the basis for the Abrogation of verses.

        Conflicted verses proves your #9 claim 100% wrong. The Verse of the Sword is a perfect example to disprove many of your arguments. I can show other examples as well, but I will not move on until you truthfully address this example.
        • Jul 21 2011: Dear friend,
          I have explained this many times before.
          please read it here:
          http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html

          this is an example of what you say:
          example:
          people came to home of prophet and sit there and not go out. and prophet did not say them go your home. they only sit and not any question or useful talk. only wasting time.
          so God sent a verse and said:
          who wants to visit prophet should pay one coin.
          then no one visited prophet unless Ali. Ali came to prophet and asked him questions and learned the knowledge from God about every thing.
          then God again sent a verse:
          if you want to visit prophet not need to pay money any more. the past rule is cancelled.
          I hope you got it.
          it is in fact teaching to people. not God has problem.


          please note Abrogation is different of contradict.
          when Koran Abrogates a verse clearly say that the past verse about this subject is Abrogated from now. this is conflict?
          it is like a commander in a war orders : go ahead and some days later says: the past command is Abrogated and now come back. this is not conflict.

          also about peace and fight verses if you read them carefully and exactly you find they have not conflict because each verse is for diffrent people and diffrent condition. if Koran have two verse in this form:
          1- fight x people in condition y
          2- peace x people in condition y
          then you are OK this is conflict
          but if say:
          1- fight x people in condition y
          2- peace z people in condition w
          then this is not contradict

          Koran not say fight any kind of non muslim. also Koran say killing some kind of muslims.
          please read verses carefully and know exactly who Koran say to fight.
      • Jul 21 2011: S.R. Ahmadi,

        Which claim are you standing by?

        "No verse is abrogated in Koran."

        Or...

        "please note Abrogation is different of contradict.
        when Koran Abrogates a verse clearly say that the past verse about this subject is Abrogated from now."

        If I am going to continue to debate this subject with you, I insist on you being truthful for the future exchanges. I also suggest not attempting to confuse the actual subject by using poor comparisons to hypothetical situations. Argue your points from the information quoted from the Koran, the book in question.

        Tell me what THE VERSE OF THE SWORD means to you---But only do it if you are going to answer truthfully. Then explain to me how that does not contradict with the 20 "friendly" verses I listed above.

        I am willing to discuss other clear examples of contradiction in the Koran, but let's get to the truth about this one first.
        • Jul 23 2011: sorry,
          my language is not english.
          I had a misunderstanding of Abrogation.
          I say:
          Koran has Abrogation but this is not error or contradiction. the Abrogations in Koran are clear and show the change of order of God for change in behavior of people. this is not error.

          about THE VERSE OF THE SWORD it says fighting to some ESPECIAL people. please do not misinterpret Koran about who should be fought. first understand who and in what condition Koran says should be fought. then say your argument.
          if Koran say fight people X IF they did behavior Y this not mean Koran says all non muslims should be killed.
          for example Koran says kill who pray things other than God IF they wanted to kill you. this has 2 term.
          I only say please be honest and first understand what Koran says and do not misquote Koran.
          many non muslims are respected by Koran and Islam and many Muslims should be killed according Koran.
      • Jul 23 2011: S.R. Ahmadi,

        There you go with X and Y explanations again. Please tell me what The verse of the sword means to you and how it does not contradict the 20 "friendly" verses I quoted above. Please tell me TRUTHFULLY if The Verse of the Sword is seen as an abrogating verse (I know the answer already, but I want to see if you will admit it).

        You say that the Koran has no contradictions. If the Koran says two different things, it has contradictions. Abrogation of verses proves the Koran says two different things.

        I am not sure that you had a misunderstanding of abrogation, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. We are making some progress here, but it seems you keep trying to slow it down.

        Again, I say that if there was need to change orders from Allah in the 23 years it took to write the book, how is it not needed to change much more in the 1400 years since then? Please give an honest answer for this too.
        • Jul 23 2011: 1- your verses of sword and peace are not considered as verses of "Abrogated" in Koran. Abrogated verses are few known verses that a verses is clearly Abrogated by a new verse. but your examples does not include Abrogated verses.

          please read here:
          http://goo.gl/j66hs

          "Please tell me TRUTHFULLY if The Verse of the Sword is seen as an abrogating verse "
          it is not abrogating verse.
          it is not general and is for special people.

          "The command was not general but only refers to particular groups of the Makkan idolaters who were notorious offenders. They used to harass the Muslims whenever they found them helpless and when overpowered prayed for amnesty by making treaties which they used to break before their ink was dried. "

          "You say that the Koran has no contradictions. If the Koran says two different things, it has contradictions."
          yes. Koran in few cases says clearly that a past command is Abrogated and this new command should be done. this is Abrogation and are few known cases. contradiction is completely different thing.

          "Abrogation of verses proves the Koran says two different things.'
          yes two different thing. but the past is clearly cancelled by new clear command. did you read my example of Abrogation? (paying money for visiting prophet)

          about peace and sword verses you say there is no Abrogation or contradiction and each verse is for different people and different case.
          http://goo.gl/j66hs

          "Again, I say that if there was need to change orders from Allah in the 23 years it took to write the book, how is it not needed to change much more in the 1400 years since then? "
          only few cases needed change that God clearly in Koran made changes and cleared the changes and few abrogations finished by finishing of revelation of Koran. if needed more abrogation Indeed God did it before finishing revelation.

          "how is it not needed to change much more in the 1400 years since then? '
          some needed change not mean always Koran should change. this argument is not valid.
        • Jul 23 2011: please read the whole story and do not cut one verse:
          http://tanzil.net/#9:1

          please read here about this subject:
          http://www.al-islam.org/peace-jihad-in-islam/3.htm

          http://www.al-islam.org/peace-jihad-in-islam/
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      • Jul 16 2011: Dear The Crusader,
        you do not know how much Iqbal made me angry and I controlled myself it is some month he is throwing me such thing about Islam. finally I decided to show him how is not respecting others. this was only one lesson to him and now I apologize him.

        back or front to Kaaba is not important. obeying real God is important. and God said we pray in this form.
    • Jul 16 2011: why war?
      we are brothers. peace and talk is better.
      • Comment deleted

        • Jul 16 2011: OK no problem. I accept and talk any critique about Islam. but from who really want to know. not from who does not hear the reply and only wants to curse Muslims in the face of critique.
      • Jul 16 2011: SR -

        you say, "why war?
        we are brothers. peace and talk is better." Agreed. Therefore stop following the Qur'an. The basic idea of Islam is that there will be peace only when everyone in the world see's it their way.

        Qur'an 8:39 "(Believers), fight them until there is no more persecution, and all worship is devoted to Allah alone:"

        Not reason with them, not patiently show them your message until the see the validity or beauty of it. No, fight them means in a physical sense. Your country was defeated militarily by Muslim aggressors from Arabia, as was most of the Middle East. Islam failed when reason alone was used, only after the Hijrah when Muslims used aggression, terror and war against their neighbors did the religion flourish. Don't lie, you know this is the truth. Read the Hadith. Muhammad ordered his followers to invite others to join Islam and pay the taxes. If they refused, his followers were to fight them until they were subdued.

        History is written by the victors. If the Muslims had not overpowered Persia by force and then brainwashed to people into believing Islam, you would not be a Muslim today. You would independently read the Qur'an for the first time and probably (like me) think "this is crap"!

        Does Islam have the one and only true message? Well if you have to spend lifetimes explaining the contradictions, historical falseness, divergence from previous scripture that it is supposed to confirm and outright lies in the scripture, then No.

        You think the reasoning of these explanations is sound but it only works if you start out believing in the Qur'an and use convoluted reasoning to explain it. In the end, an open mind will admit that Islam creates separation.

        How can peace be found by forcing everyone to Submit to a particular doctrine? This requires dictatorial rule and tyranny. Kinda like what you see in all Islamic countries in the world today.

        Once again: You can surrender to Love, but you cannot be in Submission to it.
        • Jul 18 2011: "Therefore stop following the Qur'an."
          Quran is not a cause of war. war exist in anyway. war is nature of human. the Palestinians killed are for Quran?
          anything we follow war always exist. can you show one day in history of human with no war?
          100% peace is impossible.
          peace is better but some times there is no solution unless war. like defend.
          war is last solution like cutting sick organ of body.
          talk and logic in peace is better.

          "Qur'an 8:39 "(Believers), fight them "
          please do not pick war verse. also pick peace verse. war in Islam has many rules and not any non Muslim should be killed. who block hearing by people should be killed. not all.

          "Not reason with them, "
          please be honest. Koran is not only this verse.
          fight them. who are them? them is defined. please do not interpret "them" by yourself

          'Islam failed when reason alone was used"
          please be honest. Muhammad sent letter to Persia empire and he turned off it. this is reason? they even did not want to talk Muslims. the first letter of Islam was tear up and no talk.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_letters_to_the_Heads-of-State

          "Don't lie, you know this is the truth."
          oh my God! you know better what is truth. truth is not what Freemason Jews feed him.

          "Muhammad ordered his followers to invite others to join Islam and pay the taxes."
          he started by sending letter and inviting to talk. but they replied letter by war.
          what means tearing up a letter?
          also please distinguish wars of Muhammad (PBUH) himself and wars of pagan Arab emperors after prophet in the name of Islam.

          "If they refused, his followers were to fight them until they were subdued."
          this is not in Hadith. Koran clearly say:
          http://tanzil.net/#2:256 people are free to accept or not accept Islam. please first understand Islam. fight is with Kings (like church) that isolate their people from truth about Islam and feed lie about Islam to their people. Islam only wants to talk free and all hear free. who block talk, Islam fight him.
        • Jul 18 2011: also zekat tax is paid by Muslims direct to poor people. not to government.

          "History is written by the victors. If the Muslims had not overpowered Persia by force and then brainwashed to people into believing Islam, "
          all have history. not only arabs. Persia itself has history.
          Persians are not monkey. they select by think an wisdom. this is Indeed false that Islam spread with sword.

          "Does Islam have the one and only true message?"
          there is no God but Allah.

          "You think the reasoning of these explanations is sound but it only works if you start out believing in the Qur'an and use convoluted reasoning to explain it. I'
          please do not prejudice. ocean of knowledge and reason exist about Islam. you only know little.

          "How can peace be found by forcing everyone to Submit to a particular doctrine? "
          who forced?
          http://tanzil.net/#2:256
          please first understand Islam. you have dark Image of Islam. your Image is not true.
          if a Muslim force other to accept Islam he is not Muslim. he is pagan and should go Hell.
          http://tanzil.net/#2:256
          this is opposite to order of God.

          Islam not fight for forcing other accept Islam. people are free to accept or not. fight is for other reason.

          "Once again: You can surrender to Love, but you cannot be in Submission to it. "
          your define of Love differs with mine.
          but submission to God is best.
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    • Jul 12 2011: Ed,
      OK
      this poem totally says that Rumi is so much Loving God that does not want anything But God.
      human is composed of body and soul.
      body has only 5 sense.
      but soul has many more senses
      the senses of soul are potential and not active by default
      when some one starts growing spiritually his soul becomes more and more powerful and can optionally exit the body. (optional death). it is something like NDE which you go out of body and can see your body from above and you can go anywhere you want even go out of universe with no limit because soul is not material to have limit of time and place.
      whey you are sleep you see dreams and go places while your eye of head is closed.
      it is eye of soul (one sense of soul) but at sleep usual people have not free will in sleep. but who their soul is grown they have free will of soul. when they leave their body (at sleep or awake) they can decide where to go or to soul of who speak (even speak with "face of God" وجه الله) with their soul while their body is inactive or active, sleep or awake
      such people feel extreme love with God and if they have enough growth and requirements they can meet God when they leave their body. such situation has extreme enjoy (enjoy is perceived with soul, not body. bod is like a sensor and brain is a terminal to send information to soul).
      meeting God when leaving body has a very very extreme enjoy that no one can understand it unless himself experiences it. it is like you feel you want to explode from inside and only few humans can stand such extreme enjoy.
      when Rumi is in such condition noting has any value and interest for him and says such poem. when a human experiences such enjoy at near of God does not want to trade one moment of such enjoy with all the world and all tings inside it. this is what means Rumi in this poem.
      such level of spiritual growth only and only can be reached by fearing God and knowing God:
      this is detailed instruction of reaching such level:
      http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/193.htm
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        • Jul 12 2011: sorry what you mean by "on the convex surface of the eighth sphere" ?

          did you know suf means wool and sufi means who wears wool cloths (the cheapest cloth which usually was symbol of poor people in past). or who have much money but give it to poor people and themselves have no interest in money or welfare.
          also prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was wearing wool cloths because there is a law in Islam: the top leader of a society should live at the level of the poorest person of that society. for example a leader of country can eat a food only if all people have enough money to buy it.
          actually real sufi is very rare today. and many of who claim are sufi are doing business and are not real sufi.
          the leader and head and role model of real sufi is Ali (PBUH) (above link is part of sayings of Ali).
          if a sufi does not follow Ali is not a real sufi and only claims that is sufi.
          the behavior of a real sufi should not have any conflict with Ali guides.
          one day the Arab King of that time said: Ali does not give money to poor people. Ali had a garden and was producing dates and selling it and giving its money to poor people (but at night by covered face to poor people do not know Ali to sense shame. so no one knew who is giving them food)
          when Ali heard this saying from that King said to his workers sell dates and collect its monies. for some days they collected the gold coins of selling dates and it became a hill and they covered on it by dates. then Ali invited that King to his garden and said to one of workers walk near that Hill and uncover some of gold coins as unintentional to the King see coins. that worker did what Ali said and the King saw the gold coins and asked: what is this?
          Ali said: this is the bounty of my income.

          his cloth was simple and the food of Ali himself was bread and salt or bread and water or milk.
          one day his daughter took food for Ali: bread and milk and salt and Ali said:
          when you have seen I eat a food with two feeding?
        • Jul 12 2011: today sufi have mixed some superstition and false information to real "knowing of God".
          for example some false sayings of today sufis:

          1- when soul grow spiritually the eyes of soul open and see some non-material spiritual lumine things (out of material world. something like sleep dream but while being consciousnesses). but Satan some times shows some fake lumine objects to soul and the man things is seeing God or angels of God. some sufi can not distinguish it and consider themselves accepted by God.


          2- some sufis say that when you become a sufi you become friend of God and then no need do do Islamic rules like praying or fasting because God does not want such things from his friends and they are for simple Muslims and you can do anything you like (even evil deeds which are sin and disobeying God). but this is false and God rules does not change even for prophets.
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    • Jul 11 2011: Dear Ed,
      Persian:
      چه تدبیر ای مسلمانان که من خود را نمیدانم. نه ترسا نه یهودم من نه گبر و نه مسلمانم
      نه شرقیم نه غربیم نه بریم نه بحریم نه از ارکان طبیعیم نه از افلاک گردانم
      نه از هندم نه از چینم نه ار بلغار و سقسینم نه از ملک عراقینم نه از خاک خراسانم
      نه از خاکم نه از آبم نه از بادم نه از آتش نه از عرشم نه از فرشم نه ازکونم نه از کانم
      نه از دنیا نه از عقبی نه از جنت نه دوزخ نه از آدم نه از حوا نه از فردوس و رضوانم
      هوالاول هوالاخر هوالظاهر هوالباطن که من جز هو و یا من هو کس دیگر نمیدانم
      مکانم لا مکان باشد نشانم بی نشان باشد نه تن باشد نه جان باشد که من از جان جانانم
      دوئی را چون برون کردم دو عالم را یکی دیدم یکی بینم یکی جویم یکی دانم یکی خوانم
      اگر در عمر خود روزی دمی بی تو برآوردم از آن روز و از آن ساعت پشیمانم پشیمانم
      زجام عشق سر مستم دو عالم رفته ازدستم به جز رندی و قلاشی نباشد هیچ سامانم
      اگر دستم دهد روزی دمی با تو در این خلوت دو عالم زیر پای آرم همی دستی بر افشانم
      الا ای شمس تبریزی چنان مستم در این عالم که جزمستی و سرمستی دگر چیزی نمی دانم.

      parts about God are removed in your version.
      this part which is after "nor paradise or its porter.;" My place is the placeless, " is removed:
      هوالاول هوالاخر هوالظاهر هوالباطن که من جز هو و یا من هو کس دیگر نمیدانم
      which is about God and means:
      he is first, he is last, he is apparent, he is inside that I unless he and O! he I do no know any one else

      generally that verse means Rumi is so much drawn in love of God that unless God does not know anything and he has forgotten and forgiven anything about himself like his town or anything and only and only knows God and anything has no value for him unless God. this is the highest level of Loving God that a human can reach and is very hard to reach.
    • Jul 11 2011: please reply in the same tread.
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    • Jul 11 2011: I mean some complete sentences are cut from inside this poem of Rumi.
      can you find the complete version or I say it?

      sorry what yo mean by "I Am"?
  • Comment deleted

    • Jul 11 2011: Hi,
      this poem is not complete and some parts of it [I think intentionally] has been cut.
      very beautiful poem.
      I was shocked by this poem. I have not been seen this before.

      advice:
      please take care about Dervishes. mostly their beliefs are mix of Islam and non-Islam. they some times abuse poems.