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Learning to forgive is 'the PhD" of being human. True or False? It represents the highest level of human development or does it?
***Edited:
We are at beyond the half time mark so I would like to add another question:
What are the elements of a good apology?
What are the elements of a lousy apology?
Forgiveness is a very difficult thing to give.
It is necessary to forgive?
Is it right to forgive?
Who deserves forgiveness?
Who doesn't deserve forgiveness?
Does a person have to ask for forgiveness to deserve it?
Can you accept being forgiven when you have hurt someone?
What does forgiving do for the person who forgives?
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Pascal-Xavier Van de Goor
I don't think there are elements that every apology should have but I remember having read a research somewhere (I don't remember the source, sorry) which concluded that an apology has more effect when you don't say it immediately. I realise and feel that too. When somebody apologies the day (or more) after the unfortunate event I'm more likely to say "it's okay" and mean it because I had time to think it through and place it. When I've done wrong and realise it I always say sorry right away but the next time I see that person I'll say it again "I'm sorry about last time, I didn't mean to". That approach to apologising is very powerful in my opinion.
It is necessary to forgive? Yes! To forgive is to let go which alows you to move forward. By letting go I don't mean to forget about it, some things can't be erased from your mind. By forgiving you give those events a place in your mind and when you're somehow remembered of that event you won't feel anxious anymore and put all your energy in "why did that happen to me" and so on. You might think about it for a moment but since you've made peace with it by forgiving (yourself and or the other(s)) you won't suffer (that much) from it.
Is it right to forgive? I can't see why it would be wrong. Forgiving is a powerful act and can only be respected. People who don't want to forgive will carry a grudge for their whole life, that's a lot of wasted energy you could have used to laugh.
Who deserves forgiveness? That's a hard one. The bible says everyone deserves it but in my view some really shouldn't be forgiven. On the other hand you forgive in the first place for yourself. It's up to you to decide whether or not you want to put your energy in hating somebody for the rest of your life. I think it's not worth it.
By forgiving somebody you make clear to that person that he or her has done you wrong, even though they don't realise it. You can accept being forgiven but you need to forgive yourself too.
Ronald Kimani
What made some 'voice' in your subconscious speak to you? And do we assume that the same voice didnt speak to the other patients? It did. That voice speaks to all of us, and you choose to listen, and "awaken". Others choose not to listen. In my view, that entire experience was your lesson which you prepared for yourself, so enable you grasp some reality about life that you needed to have, and move on the the next level of your learning. You could just as asily have chosen to ignore the voice, and turned into another victim. But you didn't, and their lies the biggest difference to how two people react to any situation. I want to bet that after your experience you become different in some major way, if not in terms of world view then in terms of your self view. Once you learn something about your real self, there is no turning back. And that to me is the purpose of all 'suffering'. In all pain lies a lesson for each one of us, just as in all death lies a gift for those left behind. It just takes time, patience and understanding for the lesson to come through.
Again, I struggle to put into words the image and feeling that your words created in me. I can only say that I was really happy to read them. Thank you!
Helen Hupe 30+
Debra Smith 200+
Ed Schulte 50+
Yes and it takes just enough energy to move away from a habit of self centered-ness to Self only so that the confidence of Ghandi's words become established in SELF
and your simile of horse fits in with Rumis "The Guest House" ....and when he say "your afflictions are a smooth gliding Horse"
Debra Smith 200+
I am wondering if there is a mindset at work here which makes your responsibility to your own spiritual enlightenment and observer status more critical than helping another person in distress? Is the 'other' entirely responsible for his own path and if so is the role of helper somehow a defective spiritual state in this enlightened world view?
Jim Moonan 50+
Debra Smith 200+
Jim Moonan 50+
On occasion, one child will do another child harm. They do it in all kinds of ways. Children, truth be told, can be cruel!!! It is almost always the case, when incidents occur that involve forgiveness of a child by a child, that an adult steps in (as they should) to mediate the process. It is often the case, however, that the mediator (adult) immediately insists that the child at fault apologize. Typically, nothing is expected of the victim. If you watch closely, most often neither the “forgiver” nor the "forgivee" are at all sincere about their part in the forgiveness process.
In following this great discussion it occurs to me that, just like almost everything else we want to see happen in life, education is the key. In this case, maybe parents, educators and others in the role of mediating forgiveness between two children go about it a little differently. Maybe the focus/emphasis should be as much on the ability of a person to forgive as on being forgiven. It makes perfect sense when you think about it, doesn't it? Or not?
Debra Smith 200+
Jim Moonan 50+
Colleen Steen 500+
Debra Smith 200+
Debra Smith 200+
The only way the cycle is going to be broken is for ALL parties to start realizing the ramifications of their actions. We can try to "evaluate their state of mind" all we want. They are not going to change, until they learn how to evaluate themselves.
I absolutley agree. However, my point all along and in this instance too is that you cannot make a cake without the ingredients. We all want and need people to evaluate themselves- both victims and perpetrators but I think -IF THEY KNEW HOW TO DO IT THEY WOULD HAVE DONE IT ALREADY!
You have helped me clarify my point and my thinking again. We could demand, insist, belittle, abandon or meditate on it for an eternity but if they do not have the 'light' it is not going to happen. That is where the humanity and the caring of everyone else comes into play.
Andrea on the FREEDOM question brought in some great insight about this and I'm going there now to bring some of it back because it is very relevant here.
Colleen Steen 500+
Debra Smith 200+
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"A friend brought Beth the snail with potted wild violets. Which left her initially overwhelmed wondering how she’d care for it from her imprisoned physical state. Engaging solutions, Beth noticed what they brought. Namely, life she hadn’t perceived possible at that point.
Caring for the snail, she began appreciating it as exemplary of life. She took responsibility (James’ term) for her access by meeting the snails needs. In these ways she constructed even while accessing this little freedom, on her own. And as you note, now engages others by sharing her story of discovery.
I contend this access (hers first, ours vicariously) was abetted exogenously. Her friend co-created her freedom.
While others brought bouquets of cut flowers in attempts to cheer her, this friend brought living things from woods -- where Beth once sought solace. The cut flowers withered and died, leaving Beth the problem of disposing them, if not a reminder of her vulnerability.
The simple organic gifts (violets and snail) offered potentials she could engage and nurture. (And bring to mind comments by Tim and Birdia.)
Thus her friend provided opportunity for Beth to reach a life-sustaining potential, by building a self-healing “in-situ” ecosystem. A powerful reminder and impetus to embrace her heretofore unperceived self-agency in accessing this freedom, even while she was otherwise physically dependent on others.
Engaging this she discovered her capacity to build a "mini-culture" in an otherwise stifling place. This free-space was unmistakably (if unintentionally) co-created by her friend.
Michael M 30+
I think you are right that education is key. Sometimes it may come back to begin to teach again simple common courtesies. I am not talking about the 15 minute film on "Being Courteous" but maybe it wasn't so bad after all. Teaching people to forgive and to accept forgiveness would not be so bad.
Colleen
Yes we need to break the cycle. I so totally agree with that and that everyone in the cycle needs to understand it. Sounds strange, but at some level that includes us all! The other point that is true is that being cyclical we need to teach it as such. We have too much "linear-think" going on. We want to blame someone, so we keep going back until we find one who isn't a victim, but victimizes. We need to start realizing that many problems like this are all wrapped up in a systems approach not a linear cause and effect approach.
Debra Smith 200+
We need to start realizing that many problems like this are all wrapped up in a systems approach not a linear cause and effect approach.
That is a vital piece of the puzzle!
Colleen Steen 500+
When you say it is a "systems approach" are you not putting it "out there" somewhere?
To me, it doesn't sound at all strange to say "that includes us all". There is a quote by Ernest Holmes in "Science of Mind" that I love, because it reminds me of reality. "One of the great difficulties in the new order of thought is that we are likely to indulge in too much theory and too little practice". We need to stop talking about "it" and BE "it".
Debra Smith 200+
Colleen Steen 500+
Debra Smith 200+
In fact a systems approach means not 'out there' but out there, in here and all around.
Colleen Steen 500+
No Debra, I speak from my heart. I don't like to label myself and I'm not particularly fond of someone else labeling me either, as we've discussed previously.
I told you, there was/is nothing to forgive because I didn't blame or judge you in any way. You are always accepted in my heart. Labels are not.
Michael M 30+
Actually taking a systems approach to looking at problems can lead to very specific focussing on what the real problem is. Also, it looks at problems as a whole. Now speaking about our court system, violators and people violated, that becomes a huge problem! Again, in this perspective larger society has to have a place in the system. I also believe firmly that a systems approach can show you where the real leverage in the system exists.
On on one-on-one approach it helps to look at all sides of the cyclical nature of most things. As I said we are way to linear think. Cause and effect are not necessarily close to each in time or space, things don't happen in the direct sequences we sometimes look for. Helping both the violator and the violated to see what is happening around them could have a profound effect.
I think forgiveness is one of those parts of that cyclical nature of things. It demands that people encounter their responsibility in the situation. Not that the one violated is responsible for the act against him, but in the sense that everyone owns up to the situation. Forgiveness says in spite of the hurt I received I forgive your actions.
Colleen Steen 500+
That's why I volunteered in the shelter and family center, dept. of corrections, facilitating several programs, evaluating and advocating with children in state custody, facilitated self-empowerment workshops and support groups, volunteered in a terminal care facility, and guest lectured at the univ. for years on these topics...thanks for the reminders:>)
Comment deleted
Debra Smith 200+
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3512/what_does_suicide_mean_to_you.html
Ed Schulte 50+
and the forgiveness subject thread served well to touch on other past TED subjects , Failure, being a good example.
Did see the new Suicide one but am not inclined to go there.....if the subject where "Endless Life " I would be interested ....but "Suicide" under the topic of "forgiveness" would be fruit full. There is much communication between a Being who terminates his/her mortal body existence and those Loved ones still in mortal-ness..it continues on through the transitional phases well into the Noetical ...is was a very interesting exposure for this one ...a gift of a kind .....the person ....a so called bi-polar--is doing well
Ed Schulte 50+
..I too love to watch children interact ...and it is true that they can APPEAR to be "mean" But I say APPEAR because ...in the context which I will remain ...no matter what.....the Appearance is an external one.
This is not their true being any more then it is an adults true being-ness.
Which is the whole an only understanding of this topic of “forgiveness”Re Educating ….it is impossible the Educate a “forgiving” mentality….it would be just as you observed in those Children …neither will “mean it” in the heat of the action. True little beautiful beings they are….when their Pain Body takes over ….Why try to hid it /cover it over with “Nice, Nice”..IT THE PAIN BODY and that is what PB does.
So rather then teach …why not take advantage of the fact that most Human beings arrive in form have a Pain Body in tow and let it become a topic of Conversation?
“O I feel a visit from PB coming so be watchful should your want to join in”, (no forgiveness expected OR asked for”) Tolle points out that once it is OK for children to openly talk about PB they give it a name and they are first to point out when Mommy and Daddy’s PB come out to feed. "Mommy that just your PB talking"Any summary of Forgiveness must focus on the “What” that causes the shift into unconsciousness in the first place…and then that "What" turns around and expects other to forgive for their unconsciousness …..and gets Stoked if they don’t receive it.
June 14....Dr D. R. Hawkins...This came in on a shared consciousness so will add it as it does address "appearances" so looks like just enough space to
The world is actually entertainment. Like amusement, it is meant to be worn lightly. Heaven is within and is revealed by awareness. The world is merely an appearance. Its melodrama is an artifice of the distorted sense of perception. It leads one to think that the world is large, powerful, and permanent and that the Self is small, weak, and transitory; exactly the opposite is true.
Debra Smith 200+
Living with 5 of my own day in and day out from conception to adulthood gave me a good chance to see them and love them in all their complexity and it took a total investment of my life to nurture them as people to go out into the world to be constructive people who care about others as well as themselves. Some people are equipped to invest in others while some have a different focus.
Each person is entitled to their own beliefs and practices.
One key function that I wanted my kids to own as they went into the world is forgiveness. Another is the ability to remember that they were a member of the human race with rights and obligations. While their personal development was important it should not be done at the expense of or in neglect of human beings surrounding them.
Ronald Kimani
1. As humanity we have in the past chosen to learn who we are through pain. Sad, perhaps and tough too.
2. We all have a soul that needs to learn, heal, grow and so far it has been confined to learning through pain & fear.
3. We all experience all aspects of reality, healthy/ unhealthy, rich/poor, thief/saint/ murderer/victim. I've been a slave as well as a slave master, male & female, lived a long life, died young..in many 'past' lives.
4. I planned all the experiences that I face today. There is a reason for everything, otherwise the universe is just plain chaotic, things happening and colliding by pure chance. I may not understand it as a child, or as a grieving father, but the fact that I don't understand something now does not, at least to me, mean it is pointless.
I know all these, at the core of my heart, to be true but modern science demands that I MUST prove it otherwise it is all in my mind. However, I am on Ted Conversations to share and learn. I only ask that my truth be accepted as mine, for now.
Debra Smith 200+
Cornelia Coricovac
William Devitt
As to the PhD - love - unconditional love is the real PhD of human development.
Debra Smith 200+
Michael M 30+
Helen Hupe 30+
Debra Smith 200+
Once you have hurt someone and you understand that a conscious decision to do it better is a good start and that begins with turning around and engaging differently.
Helen Hupe 30+
Debra Smith 200+
Thanks- mea culpa is an important thiing to say and know.
Conte Di Salaparuta Mordeforte
Benvenuti.
Ed Schulte 50+
Re:
What does forgiving do for the person who forgives?
Non¬reaction to the ego in others is one of the most effective ways not only of going beyond ego in yourself but also of dissolving the collective human ego. But you can only be in a state of nonreaction if you can recognize someone's behavior as coming from the ego, as being an expression of the collective human dysfunction. When you realize it's not personal, there is no longer a compulsion to react as if it were. By not reacting to the ego, you will often be able to bring out the sanity in others, which is the unconditioned consciousness as opposed to the conditioned. At times you may have to take practical steps to protect yourself from deeply unconscious people. This you can do without making them into enemies. Your greatest protection, however, is being conscious. Somebody becomes an enemy if you personalize the unconsciousness that is the ego. Non reaction is not weakness but strength. Another word for nonreaction is forgiveness. To forgive is to overlook, or rather to look through. You look through the ego to the sanity that is in every human being as his or her essence.
Ed Schulte 50+
for ushering in this exploration of "forgiveness" in this day and ago of open ""communication" it is clear that there is a VERY broad variety of understanding wrt"forgiveness"
I am going to connect her accumulated pointer with Tolle's A NEW EARTH
Forgiveness is a very difficult thing to give.
“Another word for nonreaction is forgiveness. To forgive is to overlook, or rather to look through. You look through the ego to the sanity that is in every human being as his or her essence.”
It is necessary to forgive?
“Forgiveness happens naturally when you see that it has no purpose other than to strengthen a false sense of self, to keep the ego in place. The seeing is freeing. Jesus' teaching to “Forgive your enemies” is essentially about the undoing of one of the main egoic structures in the human mind.”
Is it right to forgive? Who deserves forgiveness? /Who doesn't deserve forgiveness?
“If her/his past were your past, her pain your pain, her level of consciousness your level of consciousness, you would think and act exactly as she does. With this realization comes forgiveness, compassion, peace.”
Does a person have to ask for forgiveness to deserve it?
Another word for nonreaction is forgiveness. To forgive is to overlook, or rather to look through. You look through the ego to the sanity that is in every human being as his or her essence.
Can you accept being forgiven when you have hurt someone? “
Even if blame seems more than justified, as long as you blame others, you keep feeding the pain¬body with your thoughts and remain trapped in your ego. There is only one perpetrator of evil on the planet: human unconsciousness. That realization is true forgiveness. With forgiveness, your victim identity dissolves, and your true power emerges – the power of Presence. Instead of blaming the darkness, you bring in the light.”
Debra Smith 200+
What i really appreciate about this post is how clear it makes it that it is an inward journey. There are many times when people say the expression 'its nothing' when someone says thanks or apologizes. I think that comes close to what you are sharing. You are saying that the greater the understanding and compassion the less need there is to even feel offense. It is a nicer place to live.
But Ed do you still apologize when you step on someone's foot? I do. Not because I did it on purpose but because I am sad that I hurt them. If we see signs of hurt in anyone else it is not inconsistent with good manners or compassion to try to make it right.
PS- I think we have an acquaintence in real life in common.
Ed Schulte 50+
wrt what ET is saying ...the most important act/non-act is to observe the reactions of self from a state of non-judgement.
Do I say "sorry" or ask "forgiveness" if I where to step of a foot? actually it would be the state of consciousness I would be in rather then what I would say....there is much more to HUman presence then mere words can convey...and arise as that "fruit" of the "inward journey"
....there is an Energy field of Consciousness in which Compassion resides ...a Quality......it extend well beyond the physical body. This is not something a "mind" would/could understand/accept ...it can't because it can't comprehend it. But it can be felt ...and it does "effect" on a local to Global scale.
And it is, of course what is referred to as "A NEW Heaven and a NEW Earth" and is "as close as the large vain in the neck"
It is not something for a few but has always been "there", "here", as "inner/outer" as HUman BEings Consciousness.
Michael M 30+
Sorry to disagree a bit, but everyone judges...sometimes it is discernment of the moment, sometimes it is decision on right or wrong, sometimes it is condemnation.
Tell me about this energy field and how it makes real people in real situations be more ready to forgive. I mean it would be really cool, but who sees it and knows it? How do you use it? And most importantly, show me it is real...ah but you say I am asking for reason where none exists, no I am asking for proof where none exists.
The new heavens and new earth reference is interesting, how are we getting there? I would say you "consciousness stream" isn't helping much. I mean after all it has been around a while and I don't see many effects.
We need real live people, doing real live love towards others in concrete ways to be able to have a world where forgiveness is the norm. We need concrete demonstrations of love to those who are unlovely.
Let's try that.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Jaime Lubin 10+
Debra Smith 200+
Jaime Lubin 10+
Debra Smith 200+
In really traumatic incidents this turns into flashbacks which come unbidden and unwanted to your mind and highjack your attention. If this is severe it is actually a symptom of PTSD. In normal hurts and offenses of life it can happen in a mild form. Replaying, resifting and reconsidering the events in the woulda, shoulda, coulda mode can drive oneself crazy.
So acknowledging Jaime's 'black bird' and learning to shoo it off its roost is a good thing. Don't 'try not to think about it' because that makes it worse. Just let it come and land and acknowledge it and deliberately then turn your thinking to something else.
I love the way that Kathy speaks of letting your heart forget the pain. It does feel like your heart is deeply involved. In a weird way we do have to give ourselves permission to let go of the pain. Often that is because we have been wearing it like a shield.
Thomas Pisarchick 10+
Ed Schulte 50+
Yes and it is the "Sufi wink" a way of invitation to "come Home" Tolle says the same and the Keating's post/ref is the "How" (by one method of Meditation) mere 'words' not emanating from High Level consciousness remain just 'words;
Tolle
The mind cannot forgive. Only you can. You become present, you enter your body, you feel the vibrant peace and stillness that emanate from Being. That is why Jesus said: "Before you enter the temple, forgive."
an nay sayer will claim This sounds to me like denial and self-deception. When something dreadful happens to me or someone close to me - accident, illness, pain of some kind or death - I can pretend that it isn't bad, but the fact remains that it is bad, so why deny it? ????
You are not pretending anything. You are allowing it to be as it is, that's all. This "allowing to be" takes you beyond the mind with its resistance patterns that create the positive-negative polarities. It is an essential aspect of forgiveness. Forgiveness of the present is even more important than forgiveness of the past. If you forgive every moment - allow it to be as it is - then there will be no accumulation of resentment that needs to be forgiven at some later time.
It seems that most people need to experience a great deal of suffering before they will relinquish resistance and accept - before they will forgive. As soon as they do, one of the greatest miracles happens: the awakening of Being-consciousness through what appears as evil, the transmutation of suffering into inner peace. The ultimate effect of all the evil and suffering in the world is that it will force humans into realizing who they are beyond name and form."
And that last line really puts the dot on this whole "forgiveness" subject BUT will say again because it is of interest to this one that ....as long as HUmans dwell below the level of Compassion ...they will practice Revenge.
Debra Smith 200+
Later:
Ok, I think I have seen all your excellent postings. I hope that the way that they are out of step in responses does not hinder communication.
The mind cannot forgive only "you' can. This suggests to me that the hope comes from bringing our whole self to bear on the issue to make the choices. I agree- but I think there are a lot of people bringing every bit of clarity, mind body and soul that they have to their issues and they are still stumbling in the darkness of the first night after their houses have collapsed. They need some help and some 'things' to get there. Things like water, like light like hope, like directions. They might very well find it on their own but.............they are not pretending to be where they are and pretending will not get them further.
"It seems that most people need to experience a great deal of suffering before they will relinquish resistance and accept - before they will forgive. As soon as they do, one of the greatest miracles happens: the awakening of Being-consciousness through what appears as evil, the transmutation of suffering into inner peace. The ultimate effect of all the evil and suffering in the world is that it will force humans into realizing who they are beyond name and form."
Maybe your sentences here are true but what harm is there in handing them tools to cope and tools iwth which to build as they suffer in hopes of reducing the culmuative suffering and speeding up their process?
Forgiveness is one such tool. Diminishing it, saying it is old fashioned or not the most modern tool adds nothing to the mix. Then, when the person is stronger s/he will find even better ways as soon as s/he can or are able
Ed Schulte 50+
and as Linsay reminded this thread is due for your summary so... I will not enter the "true/false" of the question but rather continue to point to and suggest that the essential essence behind the question is to "know thy self" / "know who you are beyond name and form", first and formats, and then "Choose" ( the action of Will). That choosing, your action/reaction (called "forgiveness" here) , will be the TRUE reflection of that ""Know" ing", And this is NOT a Judgement ....simply a Reflection of ....YOU to YOU (the perceived 'other' in any interaction is YOU ).and therefore of God.
The quality of Love allowed to flow in that "choosing" is the distinguishing factor in the essence of that Knowing .. that "Realization" .and the "What" of my original first post here.
a Tolle quote to compliment Keating..the last paragraph of the Power of Now
"What you say about choice also applies to forgiveness, I suppose. You need to be fully conscious and surrender before you can forgive. ?
"Forgiveness" is a term that has been in use for 2,000 years, but most people have a very limited view of what it means. You cannot truly forgive yourself or others as long as you derive your sense of self from the past. Only through accessing the power of the Now, which is your own power, can there be true forgiveness. This renders the past powerless, and you realize deeply that nothing you ever did or that was ever done to you could touch even in the slightest the radiant essence of who you are. The whole concept of forgiveness then becomes unnecessary.
And how do I get to that point of realization?
When you surrender to what is and so become fully present, the past ceases to have any power. You do not need it anymore. Presence is the key. The Now is the key.
How will I know when I have surrendered?
When you no longer need to ask the question"
(In simple farmer lingo "It is a case of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it really doesn't matter)
Debra Smith 200+
Ed, thanks so much again for engaging.
I understand that it is going back to speak a language you and others have left behind to try to speak to me on this level. I appreciate and am grateful for the effot and even the sacrifice involved.
I enjoy the Tolle quotes vey much and I even suggest that I understand them and know them.
My plea is for those who have not or cannot open their eyelids.
For those who operate in a world of ghastly hurt and oppressions the language of forgiveness is vital.I see injured people whose eyes are closed in pain but whose ears are still working. In that case words may work. The concepts of forgiveness are the forefathers and foremothers of the concepts that many spiritual traditions advocate.
I think these concepts are worthy of respect and of sharing for people at any stage. If one is beyond them- don't use them - but at least recognize that they are the staircase that led you higher. People who have attained 'enlightenment' should be able to pick up the tools of a bygone era to offer triage, first aid and help even if you are certain the person is not as knowledgable. That is what doctors, nurses and surgeons do every day for the body.What help is it to have people fluttering around who are not modeling something better but who are declaring that people with greater wounds do it 'their way'?
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
.Lovely to have your voice, your gentle spirit and your vast wisdom in the conversation. We have laid out much to think about and draw from even if we leave it still somehow not understood..or perhaps not really desired...I am not sure which..
Please come and visit me in my new conversation which is really about Keatings work and Wilbers
"" Has culture evolved beyond belief systems "
just posted a few minutes ago and grows directly out of many conversations here at TED and the very very painful struggle many here in this community have with ideas like fear, ego, freedom, forgiveness, radical empathy.. . I am hoping we can point through this conversation to the need to get past "belief systems" and on to the eternal wisdoms which see us forward
If we are pierced by the same arrow we can sing as one for wisdom until we can sing no more.
.Peace & Many Blessings
Lindsay
Shokrullah Amiri 10+
Secondly; forgiveness is one of the characteristics of God; it is difficult to do; but if you managed, you are partially God
Debra Smith 200+
Somehow these words -when spoken by someone who is living in Afghanistan as I have learned from the "A Taste of Afganistan' question thread where you have posted such meaningful insights - touch me even more deeply.
and you remind me again as someone has already quoted "To err is human- to forgive divine.'
Thanks so much for sharing with us!
Shokrullah Amiri 10+
Forgiving; feeling; understanding; helping, and respecting each other are what I believe as one of those short definitions of human.
There is no difference between a human living in Afghanistan and a Human Living in West; it is a matter of what opportunities and motivation are provided to grow and learn. Afghans are thirsty to learn. So I am learning from you and Ted community.
Thanks to a website like ted.com and thanks to members like you.
Colleen Steen 500+
As a student in this world, I believe you speak very wise words. I believe we are all more the same than different, all connected, and when we realize this, feeling, understanding, helping, respecting each other are the natural things to do. I recognize all of us as teachers and students in the adventure of life, all here to support each other on the life journey. Thank you for being a part of the journey:>)
Comment deleted
Ed Schulte 50+
OK well I willadd one more responce to the Prof's quest
re "How does one unfurl the clenched self of fear and woundedness that prevents the 'seeing'?It seems to me to be the intersection between the enlightened soul who sees what you are advocating and the person who still functions in the world where forgiveness is needed "
It is not that one will noy function but rather as Keat ing say
'Part of this journey is to integrate these two capacities of human nature and of the brain to be physiologically accurate. This integration is meant to give us a capacity to live the mystery and the ups and downs and the pains and aches and joys and sorrows of human life, from the perspective of this interior source. And thus in our own persons become a transmission of the divine goodness of life and to make God’s presence transparent in our attitudes and behavior, but most importantly in our inmost being, where we’re prepared to be just what God made us to be and have no great desire to be anything else. "
and Rumi echos with with poetry
There is a Way between voice and presence
where information flows.
In disciplined silence it opens.
With wandering talkit closes
Rumi
Out beyond ideas of right doing and wrong doing
there is a field, I will meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the word is to full the talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase "each other"
doesn't make any sense.
Debra Smith 200+
Because most people use words, I use words. The people who are satisfied and safe are not my focus- their wordlessness might be a sign of great advancement but it could be a sign of deep indifference but it doesn't matter if they are not blocking my outstretched arms.
I will err on the side of caring. Those who reach their silence appear that they do not need anything. My focus is and always will be upon being on soft and caring person in a tough world with a sign that says:"In this moment -I KNOW its safter that way (big arrow) so follow your own light now that you see it".
In this process I grow, I love and I learn and often the lessons are around forgiveness.
Colleen Steen 500+
"How does one unfurl the clenched self of fear and woundedness that prevents the seeing" reminds me of another Rumi quote:
"I have lived on the lip of insanity
Wanting to know reasons
Knocking at the door
It opens
I've been knocking from the inside"
(Rumi)
Ed Schulte 50+
yes I used this Rumi on that "what is you favourite Poem" thread someone started a few months ago. Funny that there was GREAT consternation (by some) when Daniel's "What is Consciousness" thread ended by using Poetry .....now it is common as common can be all around TED
I work in Engineering / Construction where it is 'YOU WILL DO THIS' Company Policy that one hang on the wall a "Personal Safety Philosophy" So I uses Rumi's "The Guest House"
Very relevant to the "Forgiveness" subject here.
If one can NOT "forgive" one can't be an effective / Safe co-employee. People who have no openly displayed interest in "spiritual" say they "love that poem."
The Guest House
This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.
A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.
Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they're a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.
Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
~ Rumi ~
Debra Smith 200+
Edit:
PS The Guest House is a more hospitible place to be and to love from.
Ed Schulte 50+
Yes I can appreciate your sharing your perspective here ....(especially the point about using of 'words' ;-))but also I have to suggest that the most effective "helping hand" any individual HUman -BEing can do is is fulfil PERSONALLY that aspect of BEing here NOW in this form.
"Helping others" is something all HUmans are doing continually whether they are aware of it or not. This is so because there is a level of Consciousness which extents will beyond the physical body or any level the intellectual mind can Understand. BUT it is palpable, it can be "felt", therefore "Known" and that is again the "what" of essence ...which can;t be effected by the trivial positional -ities of the ego.
And the gaining of this "Knowing" is the gain which the "Parodical Son" ( an old story borrowed and made non-relevent in the Old Testament ....) because the Son has greater experience then the one who stayed "home".
So in that light, each of gains a great deal from what may look like "failures" and require "forgiveness" are …as the Guest House poems say “gifts from the beyond”.
This is a cleaver Rumi approach ...a Sufi wink...so to speak......I will post a Tolle which explains this
Debra Smith 200+
Almost as much as I love the Afghani gesture you shared. So in this you have taught me some of the virtue you find in silence - with a gesture you communicate acceptance and kindness and understanding. I like that common ground.
You offer me the illustration of the prodigal son and in return I offer the NT story of the precious one lost sheep (without trying to slant this to anyone spiritual tradition). The shepherd uses all his resources and his strength to recover just one sheep when he could have kept meditating. Instead he continued his spiritual practice while looking for and rescuing the sheep- so two gained from his enlightenment.
Colleen Steen 500+
I did not choose the Rumi passage to "identify" where "another is standing", nor did I suggest that "another is insane". The quote says: "I have lived on the lip of insanity...wanting to know reasons". I, Colleen Steen, have lived in that place of confusion, as I was dealing with a very violent abusive father, 24yr. abusive marriage, cancer and near fatal head injury. I often asked "why...why...why me". I was knocking from the inside, trying to find answers and free myself from the ego and judgement. When I could follow my "why me" question, with "why not me", I began to understand and heal. If you need to label it "passive aggressive", so be it.
Debra Smith 200+
The phrase was mine and the question was for third parties.
Colleen Steen 500+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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Debra Smith 200+
Ed Schulte 50+
re your " Well Ed, I'm glad you decided to pick cherries in this orchard" "
**eys lids slowly close ...as head gently sweeps a clockwise rotational movement over right shoulder** ;-)
( see **a taiste of Afganistan** )
Bob Van Oosterhout 20+
Letting go involves allowing ourselves to experience painful emotions without resistance and without dwelling on judgments about fault or blame. Resisting painful emotion creates tension which draws our mind to the transgression and stimulates more painful emotion. Letting go involves choosing not to take mental paths that involve blame, judgment or revenge. Most times we have to let go more than once and often many times over a period of weeks or months. Ultimately letting go frees us from mental and emotional aftereffects of our hurt and allows us to get on with our lives.
Reconciliation is the deeper level of forgiveness. It requires not only that we let go but also developing compassion and understanding. There are many situations where reconciliation is not appropriate or worth the effort. However, reconciliation is necessary for healthy long-term relationships. Once broken, trust needs to be rebuilt over the long term with verifiable evidence that it is deserved. Reconciliation requires openness of all people involved. I cannot reconcile with someone who thinks they did nothing wrong or is plotting how they might cheat me again.
The importance of letting go, reconciliation, and therefore forgiveness is easily discerned by looking at what happens when we don’t do it. Not letting go leads to anger, frustration, tension, stress, and often anxiety and/or depression. In addition to these, choosing not to reconcile with someone in a long-term relationship feeds miscommunication and mistrust, undermines cooperation and interferes with problem solving and peaceful co-existence.
Debra Smith 200+
I am always grateful that you care the way you do and that you share such practical tips and approaches with such a gentle style.
You do much good here at TED.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Ed Schulte 50+
Very direct question Debra …(I will respond to you and perhaps it will address that last part of your post re "look at" as well )
.and I am quit sure that you have noticed that 80 to 90 % of TED conversation circles around exactly that that…THE “clenched self of fear and wounded-ness “ It takes God’s finest creation to not let unconscious behavior rest for long does it ;-) ..(and the "other half" of HUman Being-hood just has to try and keep up!!! as best as possible ;-( )
OK ..the question is “How” …..and I am not going to point to Tolle this time I suspect you understand him well enough to also access this short sound talk by Father Keating ……
http://www.withinsight.com/meditation/#!state_link_10…..
Its could be titled “Enter your room” …….Keating is a high level conscious-ness LOC 650 and resonates with others such as Sufi Rumi and Yunus. I point to this Keating sound clip because of its efficient use of multiple approaches in such a short period of time. Also, it is unfortunately that in the “new age” overload Keating is not heard because he is …well…. he is Christian ….
.this is the old Sufi adage “Everything you ever needed to know it right there on the back of your eye lids” said VERY eloquently.
PS if you wish and want it….check around this wed page and you will find the transcript of the Keating talk.
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Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
.My all time favorite Keating is "Invitation to Love" Of all his works, "Invitation to Love" is written in the most "universal language" ..at least the first few chapters. In it he has a wonderful description of how we collect all this brokneness over the course of our lives..how we end up with an egoic " operating system..how we begin to disentangle that by recognizing how it is operating in every moment
Here is a wonderful quote that we could cut and paste as well into our conversation on freedom:
"When locked into our private worlds of narcissistic desires, we are not present to the needs of others when they seek help. The clarity wit which we see other people's needs and respond to them is in direct proportion to our interior freedom."
.Abbott Keating is dying now ,confined to the monastary . His heir apparent is the head of my community, Cynthia Bourgeault, whose writings are even more in a universal language than Abbot Keatings. Of her works, "The Wisdom Way of Knowing" is most accessible and universal.
It's a joy to me see these universally accessible works brought here to Ted and offered as a resource in conversations like this. (Thank you Ed.) They were written for people committed to and willing to take up a spiritual practice ,from a faith based Christian center, especially Abbott Keatings work, but they contain wisdoms that require neither faith nor spiritual practice. ( Just skip over the part s that don't click for you)
I hope you enjoy it Wongmo..you would like Bougeault especially she is a genius who speaks simply. and with great wisdom.
Ed Schulte 50+
and although I can't speak for Sounds True ( they are the ones creating thes Most valued recordings of Keating) I am sure they feel your Joy in Keating as do so many others. Keating, Tolle and a few others are here to direct HUmanity away from what DrH refers to as "The Ego's game board" not by removing or Killing the Ego but rather, as Tolle says, "disentangle" ourself from it.
.Keating will only "die" in a mortal sense, clearly he has, as the Sufi say "Die before you Die" , accomplished and resides in the infinate...or as he says himself
....."as it comes from emptiness into fullness. From all possibilities into the actualization of all possibilities, of which we happen to be just one. "
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
http://www.contemplative.org/cynthia.html
She is dazzlingly brilliant and utterly simple. She writes with amazing clarity and at a very human level. You'll enjoy her, I'm sure.
Debra Smith 200+
That is my own expression for what I see ' clenched self of fear and wounded-ness ' not a quote of some kind. It is what I see. So many people in a sort of charlie horse of pain and my heart wants them to stop hurting.
I promise you that as much as I sense that I am frustrating people with my questions sometimes- I know what I am after is important- for many people.
Ed Schulte 50+
but in the spirit of Sufi and Keating it is better said "Thank Us (because all we HUmans truly have is each other)
Debra yes I recognize that those are your words ...I responded because they used proprio-septive-ness ( body language) within.
As for "effort" this right off of day to day "discussions/sharing / flow" in this life so it is more like picking cherries. And yes it is very much a "language" thing so any input, such as High level mediation guidance does work wondering in getting intelectual "dis-intanglement" going.And on that note (after all you did plave this under the debate column) I say away from any debating the hows of moving the lower level energy of "Forgiveness" to the High Consciousness energy level of "Compassion" but will share this arrival to a Consciousness discussion group yesterday.
It relates directly to the point about "languaging" by way of ...indentifing "positionalities" and language=labeling so "Context" rather then "Content" leads to freedom from word bondage.
Dr D. R. Hawkins "June 10................. Detachment from positionalities—and especially the positionalities occasioned by labeling—leads to serenity, freedom, and security. Greater serenity arises from relating to the context of life rather than to the content, which is primarily a game board of interacting egos. This broader style of relating to life leads to greater compassion and emancipation from being at the effect of the world."
Debra Smith 200+
I know that we grew up in the same country but I sometimes find it hard to understand your writing style and I want to access what you are saying more deeply. If you knew me, you would know that there are few things that I dislike more than debating tactics. I don't know why I phrased this as a debate when I could have put it as a question but I guess I wanted people to be free to bring entirely different views to the table for our feast.
I think it has been a feast. Context is a very important element. I am deeply grateful for the generousity people have shown in opening up and comparing notes. I am also glad to be able to say - welcome to your world view, or I'm glad you're here, or that is a great new point or I do not understand. I am even more grateful to have the honour of reading the words of the many sincere people who have contributed here.
Conte Di Salaparuta Mordeforte
From Eckhart Tolle Noi possiamo vedere un schizzo da la "sua" saggezza: (lo stesso che Baghavad Gita )
"So do not be concerned with the fruit of your action- just give attention to the action itself"
E bello que questa conversazione 'e un spechio dove possiamo vedere un po di nostra capacita per la compasione, adesso tanto scomparsa e perdutta tra tanti pseudospiritual garbich.
Vi ringraziamo la tua acuta e tagliente proposta.
Debra Smith 200+
Conte Di Salaparuta Mordeforte
Amare e tutto.