Joe Delsen


This conversation is closed.

Does our belief of God's existence or non-existence not important to God (for God believers) but only important to all of us?

Looking from our world history and our debates, I believe these perspectives can agree on many things (among others):

1. We are free and we can choose to love and be happy and help other people to be loved and be happy as well; and because we can be weak and abuse our freedom, we also empower a government system to prevent or deal with our weaknesses.

2. We want to know the truth and let justice prevail. We want to be responsible and hold others to account and make sure our systems is just, equitable and earth-sustainable.

3. Failing to live to the good ideals of God or failing to be responsible in our personal and social duties will oppress or kill other people.

4. Using the idea of God or the idea that there is no God to empower people to oppress or kill other people is a bad idea.

5. Using our identities as God's people, or using our imperfect personal integrity as a moral authority in dealing with other people instead of the power of our common ideas does not seem to work in our cooperations.

Is it possible to translate and contribute the power of our beliefs or non-beliefs and agree on our common interests that will help setup systems that prevent, at the most, gross injustices and crimes from happening?, Systems that resolve crises and transform our systems into a just, equitable and earth-sustainable global home?

How can the power of our beliefs or non-beliefs strengthen our convictions to energize the hearts and minds of many people and achieve a critical number of caring and inspired people enough to transform our world?

more ...

  • thumb
    Jun 18 2011: Hi Joe
    I applaud you sentiment. Why can't we all just get along irrespective of our beliefs ? If only life were so simple, but , as you realise there are problems. If those intent on bombing, murder, rape, stealing, greed, selfishness etc etc., would desist then we may have a hope. There are a lot more problems to solve than mere beliefs.
    When there is no god then man elevates himself to that position & as history shows, mayhem ensues. Hitler, Caesar, Stalin, Mugabe, Amin, etc etc.
    I guess what matters is what is really true. I take the Christian perspective, as it makes most sense to me. I believe there is eternal life, and it is important to me to tell folks. If they dont want to hear then I'll not badger them. Likewise if I believe something is wrong I will say so. To me that is real care for folks. Who would let their children do anything they please & believe they are getting a good start in life ?
    So yes I will work with my fellow man for a better tomorrow, but that tomorrow can only be better while we have toleration, free speech, and general respect for one another's views.

    • thumb
      Jun 18 2011: Yes Peter we can work with other people to right the wrongs around us. These are indeed the language of our mutual interests - toleration, free speech and general respect, so are loving our neighbors and humanism.

      I think that we all have the concept of what is good and among our diverse soceity, we only differ in language. Some people choose to believe the importance of only our life here on earth and to me it doesn't matter when doing all these together we can also all go to heaven whether we believe it or not. (

      We can all agree that extremism of any belief or conviction is a bad idea and we do have the power to prevent this. I've looked into the essence of major religions and I don't see extremism as their core agenda.

      We have problems and this is precisely the reason to hope. We have the power of our hearts and minds, however we believe it is powered, to solve our problems.

      We can all work together and when we are dealing with diverse group of people, we need to translate our own perspectives in the simple language of our mutual interests.

      There is a great challenge among Christians to also transform our world and I think many people are doing that today but as we look at our problems today, more loving hearts and inspired minds need to contribute. I hope that you'll work with me or with other people to face this challenge.
      • thumb
        Jun 20 2011: Hi Joe
        I think as far as the Christian perspective goes there is one main problem. You obviously believe that mankind is basically good, & that he has the power to transform the world for the better. I think history testifies that the Christian church has carried it's fair share of the load when it comes to helping those in need. However, my perspective is that mankind is basically self-centered & incapable of changing the world for the better on his own. History bears this out.
        Also, from my perspective, the bible lays out the history of the world, from a Jewish perspective, from the creation to the end of time. So far it has been correct, & things are lining up for the Grand Finale'.

        "Solution 1. Resolve crisis and global risks that may further weaken our world. "
        We really need a World Government & World Army. Both in line with prophecy.

        "Solution 2. Transformation of our economic systems into an equitable and earth-sustainable economic model."
        Sounds like the "Mark of the Beast" solution. Well under way with the credit cards etc. In line with prophecy.

        Solutions 3-5 are along the same lines & require power to be global. None of this is new to Christians.

        It is all so sensible. If we get our hand "chipped" & it becomes our currency then all financial wrongdoings can be eradicated overnight. The government has total control of finances & can adjust interest rates etc at will.
        We see an uprising in many countries, formally dictatorships. Why not give them a hand & bring them into the "World Community" ?
        Why not have a World Church that encompasses all faiths, & do away with inter-faith bickering ?
        Why not impose a solution in Israel & stop the fighting ?
        We will get around to all these things, but, according to the bible at least, they wont work.

        So all we can do is try & help those around us, but the big picture has been decided already by the being who created us......In my humble opinion. :-)
        • thumb
          Jun 20 2011: Peter do you believe that everything has been predestined to happen and that only worthy Christians will be saved on the last day?

          Your definite answer I think would conclude our discussion.

          Let me clarify though what I'm saying in my website. From a religious perspective, we have the power to transform our world because we have also allowed the power of our Christian God to make it happen and since we only have one God, God would have lent His power too trough other faiths, cultures and convictions.

          In my description of our practical efforts to help our weaker brothers and sisters around the world, Solution 1 does not mean one world government or army. It is the inherent global security and stability that I think the developed nations and other nations are providing today. It's also the practical solution formed by diverse people like WEF in formulating the Risk Response Network.

          Solutions 2 to 3 simply means making our economic systems just.

          Solutions 4 to 5 simply means making democracy work or making the principles of freedom, justice and truth prevail.

          I'm not suggesting anything about chips in our body or a World Church. It's about putting our governing and economic information in the digital world so that the principles of justice (accountability) and truth (transparency) will make our democracy work. I'm not suggesting any world church, we keep our churches. If God had allowed other religions to flourish then there must be a purpose to it.
      • thumb
        Jun 20 2011: Hi Joe

        The question of predestination is a thorny one, & I doubt anyone can give a definitive answer. I look at it like this :- Each individual has the freedom to chose, but God knows what choices he/she will make. So from our perspective it is an unfolding picture, but to God it is a done deal. I know; clear as mud; but that's my rationalisation if you like. God is not affected by time, as He has no mass, so the beginning & end of history are the same to Him.

        There is no such thing as a "Worthy" Christian. A christian is by definition a person who realises that they are totally unworthy, & only by the Grace of God will they get off this planet alive.
        I don't know if that concludes our conversation or not; your choice.

        On the prophecy stuff, I merely point out what the bible predicts. The tendency is for everything to become global; Windows, Coke, Mastercard, you name it. Increasingly we in the UK are dictated to by Brussels to such an extent that folks don't think it worth voting. We voted in the 70's for a european economic community & have not had any opportunity to comment since, so the home of democracy has dropped the ball.
        The financial system is bankrupt & will need radical surgery. Our troops are stretched to braking point fighting fires all over the place. I would say that the pressure is certainly on for a global government.

        Anyway, I applaud your efforts & wish you the best. My efforts will be in the same sort of direction; & boy, have we both got our work cut out !

        • thumb
          Jun 21 2011: Hi Peter!, you did not give me a definitive answer on the christian's privilege for salvation so let me share with you what I understood from my studies of catholic teachings. One of the doctrine states that non-christians can also be saved because we are all God's children and therefore we are imbued by an intrinsic knowledge of what is good and bad (natural law). All our brothers and sisters are christians by "baptism by desire".

          I think our leaders are very capable and knowledgeable of our problems but when our international dialogs are bogged down by lack of cooperation, political short-sigthedness or conflicting business and national interests, then we need a new paradigm that can rise above these issues and guide us to put our global family in order.

          We make adjustments and sacrifices and what I think we all need to do is eliminate our wastes and excesses, improve our productivity and reduce the cost of our justice, welfare and healthcare systems by enabling the right dynamics of our hearts and minds - our love, our search for useful scientific knowledge and our true happiness.

          As christians, we know the reasons and answers to our problems and this has been a continuing challenge but as you know, the status quo seems to be not solving our problems. This is the reason why I think we need to escalate the power of our hearts and minds and translate our convictions in way that our diverse society can understand and drive it to transform our lives, our nations and our world.

          Trusting of our leaders does not seem enough that's why I would like to see the progress of our efforts in an organized information and social network systems.

          I believe that there is this great desire in many people to see and work for a just and happy global home. I have faith and hope and I can trust our fellow earth citizens seeing and working together in the days ahead translating and contributing the power of our convictions leaving a true legacy to our children.
      • thumb
        Jun 21 2011: Hi Joe
        " did not give me a definitive answer on the christian's privilege for salvation ..."

        " teachings. One of the doctrine states that non-christians can also be saved because we are all God's children and therefore we are imbued by an intrinsic knowledge of what is good and bad "
        Sorry if I was incomplete on salvation. The Roman Catholic church tends to make it's own rules; eg how can Mary be a virgin if Jesus had brothers & sisters; she was only a virgin until after Christ was born; common sense. For me it is the words of the bible that matter, & it is quite straightforward on the matter, eg;

        "Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
        Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

        The only reason I am saved is because I believe that what Jesus did paid for my sins, & my slate is; & will continually be; clean. This is mainline Christian doctrine as far as I am aware. We trust that the bible is the word of God. Because I believe this, I am motivated to help others, but no amount of effort on my part contributes in any way to my salvation.

        Many people have their own "Holy Books", & trust in them. It is up to each of us to come to our own conclusions. If you try & incorporate them all you will get a headache. I think your goals are admirable, & in line with what I would deem "Christian"; also in line with many other belief systems. We all want what's best for us & our children. Hopefully by now people are getting the message that 'more money' is not the answer, but who can blame the emerging nations for thinking that it is.

        The internet is certainly capable of uniting folk as never before, so you may have something .

  • thumb
    Jun 6 2011: Hi there,
    So I don't actually believe or not believe very strongly, so not sure my engine is powerful enough for you.
    But, what I would say might help.
    Can I ask a different question....
    Can the common ground between believers and non believers in God be a force for good?
    I love the sunshine and wet grass in the early morning.... Does it matter that God made it, it's here, and Believers and Non-Beleivers enjoy the same experience. I don't enjoy pancakes more because my wife has made them with love, than if I have the hotel buffet bar. I enjoy the experience per se.
    Can we extend this idea? Does it matter why we love one another, and I compassion and humanity for my fellow man? Does it matter why I want to live freely and contract and exchange with men and women in my community. So if the outcome is the same, does it matter why/what we believe?
    • thumb
      Jun 6 2011: Mr. Walker, I generally agree with your view. In my situation, even in small acts like my wife making a pancake, I like to turn in into moments of expressing our love (few words, small gestures) and it generally make me enjoy my pancake more.

      When we are working with other people with different backgrounds in formulating and working for solutions I also believe that our beliefs or non-beliefs does not matter, it only matters in our own private convictions or in the sharing of our convictions within our like-minded peers. I believe that the power of our convictions, however it is empowered, is enough to define our common interests and also becomes the force of good.

      Looking at the state of our world and our people today, we have big problems and there are more people with beliefs. How can we translate this power of beliefs into our common interests and joined it with the power of convictions of non-believers who seems to have a deeper understanding on how our world works?

      Do we have to wait for believers to be more educated and converted as non-believers (or vice versa) before we can transform our world? Would the basic understanding of the capabilities of our hearts and minds enough to power people to transform our world?
      • thumb
        Jun 6 2011: Nope, don't think we need to convert one or the other way.
        Non-believers and believers can flourish together in life.
        The opposite would be like saying Airbus can't get Jews and Muslims or Straights and Gays or Socialists and the rest of us, folks who dress up rubber for spanking and folks who have sex with the lights on, to work together. If we can do something amazing like build an airplane with these differences, getting on together in life outside of work and changing the World is easy.
        I just think Religious differences are a tiny thing compared to the common ground we have as amazing human beings who can work together to achieve great things.