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A TASTE of IRAN
talks there are a familiar thread “stand in their shoes; develop empathy; waging war when we don’t understand; peace and war, etc.”
All Iranians are invited with all kinds of mind (opened, closed, semi-opened)
All non-Iranians interested to know Iran as it is in real are Invited.
Let’s take up the challenge and make a joint effort to learn more about Iran.
this topic is made as a part of the series of ""A TASTE" SERIES: to explore the countries and cultures of those in conflict!" by recommendation of Dear friend Wongmo R.
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3131/a_taste_series_to_explore_t.html
please ask your questions about Iran.
other Iranians please participate.
Sen McGlinn
Many of the Bahais, and the other oppressed people of Iran, do leave, but most stay. There are many reasons,
first, many want to stay.
- They have families in Iran (many families are part-Bahai, because becoming Bahai is a matter of conviction, not of birth),
- they are farmers with land (because of the exclusion of Bahais from most forms of employment, Bahais are generally labourers, small shopkeepers, or farmers).
- Perhaps they hope that things will be better next year, or soon.
- They feel a religious obligation to Iran, as the cradle of the Bahai Faith (it is our 'Holy Land', as Palestine is the Holy Land for Christians), and patriotic attachment. The Bahai writings speak of a great future for Iran as a modern nation regaining its former glory (eg http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SDC/sdc-1.html#pg9 )
- They know from contact with Iranians who have left to settle in other countries that it is often very difficult to settle in a new country among strangers. Will the new country ever feel like home? Will the people accept me?
Second, they may be unable to leave. The government makes it difficult. To give one example, the Human Rights Activists' News Agency reported in June 2010 (http://tinyurl.com/shiraz50) that 50 young Baha'is from Shiraz, whose suspended sentences on charges of tutoring underprivileged children were coming to an end, had their sentences modified to include a travel ban. If they wish to leave, they have to post a bond of about US $50,000, forfeit if they do not return. (At one time Bahais would cross the border into Afghanistan, more recently it seems that the Turkish border has been more popular. Some can take the train and leave officially (see http://tinyurl.com/bahairefugees), but if they have no passport or they fear for their families in Iran, they leave illegally. This is physically difficult; it means walking through mountains and crossing rivers (see http://tinyurl.com/pouyas-story for an example).
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
why you did not reply my past questions?
you are hiding the facts about iranian Bahais trying to get power and destroy government of Iran both before and after revolution.
you are trying to show the problems only related to faith and hide the facts about spying activities of SOME bahai people in Iran.
you tryied to show Howeida was not bahai. but in book of your friend in this topic is written that Howeida was a bahai.
you only show some people are punished in Iran. but why?
it is only and only for their faith? or for activities like spying and deviating Koran and Islam?
many people are executed in USA. so I should only show pics and say they are killed for their beliefs?
each country has rules and every punish is not only for faith.
also I agree some stupid people exist in Iran that violate against Bahai people beyound the rules.
also pleas reply my past questions about Bahai faith and Koran and so on.
Sometimes Someone
I happen to have some close Baha'i friends as there are many of them residing in the area that I live. Moreover, a fair number of them are Iranian born and left the country due to the oppressive Regime. Critique of the political situation is beyond my field of expertise, but as far as the S.R. claims I know for the fact that they are incorrect as I asked my friends particularly about those.
SR: "iranian Bahais trying to get power and destroy government of Iran both before and after revolution."
Quoting my Baha'i friend, "It is against out basic religious tenets to overthrow or oppose any government. We are ordered to abide by the law of every land that we reside in as it has been the case with regards to Baha'is of Iran."
SR: "you are trying to show the problems only related to faith and hide the facts about spying activities of SOME bahai people in Iran."
There has been no evidence supporting these accusations. At least this is the position which Amnesty International, United Nation, US congress, and European Union has. I hope you have evidence for such baseless accusations as I can provide you with the link to each of these institutions position on Iranian Baha'is.
SR: "you tryied to show Howeida was not bahai. but in book of your friend in this topic is written that Howeida was a bahai."
What book are you talking about? Who is the author? What are the sources?
Even if you're hypothesis is true,and the politician was a Baha'i what does it have with the religion as a whole? I thought it was your assertion that don't judge all the Muslims based on the acts of a minority group, namely Ben Laden. Then you are committing the same act that you abhor so much!
Sen McGlinn
Hoveida was not a Bahai. Even if he was, why should Bahai children today be banned from universities, why should Bahai adults today be banned from most forms of employment, why should the cemeteries of the Bahais today be vandalised - not with a spray can here or there, by systematically with loaders and bulldozers - because one man years ago was a Prime Minister? Perhaps "some, not all," of the Bahai corpses were spies? The "thinking" SR exhibits is truly beyond belief.
In any case, Hoveida was not a Bahai. In a biography of Hoveida, "The Persian Sphinx," Abbas Milani cites Amir-Abbas Hoveida’s brother – Fereydoun Hoveida – writing (p47) “I was fourteen years old when I first heard the word ‘Baha’i’ and learned what it meant from a friend.” So he grew up in a non-Bahai family, even though his grandfather had been a Bahai. His parents had chosen not to be Bahais, and not tell their children about the Bahai Faith. Hoveida himself became a freemason and engaged in party politics, neither of which is compatible with being a Bahai.
Hoveida was repeatedly forced to deny he was ever a Baha’i. Yet, the rumors persisted and, after he had become Prime Minister, Hoveida began persecuting the Bahais to prove he was not a Baha’i himself. Documents from the Shah’s secret police (SAVAK) confiscated and made public after the 1979 revolution revealed that in 1967 he ordered the firing of Baha’is from the Ministry of Petroleum. In the same year, Hoveida also ordered termination of all Baha’i students who were studying nursing and were affiliated with Iran’s Ministry of Petroleum. (Velveleh Dar Shahr, p. 105. Online at: http://www.velvelehdarshahr.org/ )
Because loyalty to one's government is a Bahai principle, naturally Bahais cannot engage in spying against their government. In any case, they are under constant surveillance in Ira
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"Critique of the political situation is beyond my field of expertise"
if you do not know politics so why you engage in discussion you do not know?
the real problem of Bahai people in Iran is their secret political/spying/destroying Islamic revolution/secret connections to israel activities. but they hide behind faith and human right claims. Indeed many of them are not engaged in such political activities and are simple citizen and have not such problems in Iran and are living although all bahai people have some legal limitations in getting jobs or positions in Iran. thats governmental rule.
what I try to say is clear:
bahai people in Iran have two aspect:
1- faith aspect
2- political aspect (spying,...)
problems of them mostly is related to no.2 not no.1
"as I asked my friends particularly about those. "
what you asked them? you asked: was you a Israel spy in Iran? and what they said?
"There has been no evidence supporting these accusations."
I think you have not read my comments in this topic about ecidences. first read a topic then engage.
some ecidences are:
documents found in US embassy in Iran.
documents found in SAVAK of Iran at revloution
secret activities of Howeida
and others
"At least this is the position which Amnesty International, United Nation, US congress, and European Union has."
all of them are friends of Israel and Bahai faith is supported and abused by Israel. so they do their best for their friend.
"I hope you have evidence"
read my other comments here about Bahai.
"What book are you talking about? "
read this topic complete.
I cant not repeat same thing again.
"Then you are committing the same act that you abhor so much!"
please note I always try to use SOME before saying Bahai people.
although Bahai faith is diffrent of Bahai people.
about Bahai faith I asked some clear questions but not received any reply yet.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
finally he was Bahai or not???!!!
"naturally Bahais cannot engage in spying against their government."
their government is Iran or Israel?
please note again and again:
I am not talking about ALL bahai people. SOME.
Sometimes Someone
Dear SR, you utterly confuse me. In some of your posts in "the proving the Koran discussion" you claim it is perfectly OK to disagree with you and the Koran. Then, here not agreeing with the Koran is a crime with require punishment and constitute treason. Needless to note, I'm sure it is a basic teaching of Baha'i to accept validity of all religions and look at them through a progressive revelation lens which puts each religion into perspective its own time and space. So they clearly respect the Koran among other scriptures.
SR: "many people are executed in USA. so I should only show pics and say they are killed for their beliefs?"
I don't think anyone here has claimed US is infallible. Evey place in the world you go there are issues and problems. However, in U.S. we enjoy freedom of speech and religion (1st Amendment) which you are denying to the citizen of your country because they don't believe in YOUR religion in they way YOU want them to believe.
SR: "each country has rules and every punish is not only for faith."
I saw heartbreaking pictures where Baha'i cemeteries were ruined Baha'i houses burned in Sari. Is this part of the punishment. Who are you punishing for breaking what law?
SR: "also I agree some stupid people exist in Iran that violate against Bahai people beyound the rules."
It is interesting that you are agreeing to the fact it is part of the government's law to violate privacy of non-Muslim citizen. Although, please bear in mind my criticism is not solely related to Bahai's but all other religious group. I'm well aware that non-Shia Muslims are too being discriminated in the border cities of Iran by the your oppressive government which makes it demanding respect to Non-Muslim such an unattainable delusion in your country.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
please do not misquote me.
by punishment I mean punishment of governmental rules against spying and so on. not about religion. when I said this punishment is from Koran?
about deviating Koran I mean bahai people say we accept and believe Koran and at the same tome they say Baha-ollah was prophet of God while Koran clearly says prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was final prophet of God. how you solve this contradiction?
if you think bahai people are pressed only for their religion please reply this:
you know Israel is most important enemy of Iran.
how many Jew are now living in Iran?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
Iran has high population of jew.
why they are not treated like Bahai people?
RELIGION IS NOT PROBLEM OF BAHAI PEOPLE. PROBLEM IS SECRET POLITICAL ACTIVITIES.
Christians and many non-muslims are living free in Iran. they even have many parliament member.
"Baha'i to accept validity of all religions "
this is impossible. because Koran as base of Islam says Muhammad (PBUH) was final prophet but Bahai invented a prophet after him.
also that prophet is flexible some times God some times prophet some times Imam some times final savior of world.
"However, in U.S. we enjoy freedom of speech"
are you free to speech against Israel or Holocaust?
"I saw heartbreaking pictures where Baha'i cemeteries were ruined Baha'i houses burned in Sari. I"
for what time? after Iran revolution or before? for what reason? only faith? or political? please do not refer to bahai references.
"part of the government's law to violate privacy of non-Muslim citizen. "
please show me only one law in iran about "violate privacy of non-Muslim citizen"
"but all other religious group"
you do not know religions in Iran and you are influenced by propaganda against iran. all the world is pressing Iran using any tool. media sanction UN war ,...
non-Muslims are respected Iran. (who are not spy)
Sometimes Someone
Sometimes Someone
SR, you don't unfortunately think and just write whatever comes to your mind. You don't have slightest of knowledge about the topic you engage in. Baha'is are not a race but a religion which includes a wide range of racial groups. If the problem is not that of faith, why would you call them Baha'is instead of regular Iranian citizen.
SR, you said "although all bahai people have some legal limitations in getting jobs or positions in Iran. thats governmental rule." Does that make any sense to you? If they cannot get Jobs in governmental positions how would they spy? What information are they gathering. Accusation is simple, one can simply claim S.R. Ahmadi is spying in TED for the Iranian government. He is in TED all the time and tires to id who are against Islam. Having done that, he will attempt a cyber attack against them. Yeah, that easy.
SR: "what you asked them? you asked: was you a Israel spy in Iran? and what they said?"
You simply didn't read my comment or have very poor reading comprehension. What "ANY GOVERNMENT" means to you?
Your comments don't refer to any credible evidence. Just saying "documents found in US embassy in Iran.documents found in SAVAK of Iran at revloution.secret activities of Howeida and others" does not constitute evidence.
"Some" can mean 2 people as well as 95% of their population. Using the word some DOES NOT justifies your accusation.
I didn't misquote you! What I said was exactly what you implied. Either what you write is different from what you mean in which case I cannot help you and you need to see an specialist. Or you have no idea what you are talking about and you don't even understand it an hour latter.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I mean Bahai problems in iran. they are mostly political.
"Baha'is are not a race but a religion "
yes they are not race. also they are not religion. they are some people having Bahai religion.
do you underestand difference of bahaism and a Bahai person?
it is like Christianity and Christian.
I am not talking about bahai faith. I am talking about Bahai people of iran.
"why would you call them Baha'is instead of regular Iranian citizen."
because now I was not talikng generally about iranians I was talking about Bahai iranians.
"Does that make any sense to you?"
this is rule. like US that Iranians are limited in some Job positions. can a iranian have high political or military job? I think any country has such laws?
can Iranians have any job in israel?
"If they cannot get Jobs in governmental positions how would they spy?"
do you know what is spy?! a spy easily make fake documents like birth certificate. non governmental can be spy also.
"What information are they gathering."
you really do not know?
"Accusation is simple, one can simply claim S.R. "
read all my comments here. I showed some documents.
TED is public in Internet. not need to spy.
"What "ANY GOVERNMENT" means to you?"
means any government. I think you did not get my point. many religions are in Iran. why only Bahai has such problems? why only Bahai has so much support from israel?
"Your comments don't refer to any credible evidence. "
I put the Image of documents of SAVAK. they are not credible evidence? the original documents exist if you want to see.
"does not constitute evidence."
hah! so the links of Bahai sites are constitute evidence?
if you study more it is clear that israel is tryong to destroy Islamic revolution by abusing and supporting and brain washing Bahai people in Iran (also Bahai faith is changed during history by Israel to fit their needs. also central leading offices of Bahai faith are in Israel)
by some I mean not all of them are the same.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
when I said punishment is from Koran?
I said it about laws of Iran government about spying and so on.
but you got it about Koran.
Sometimes Someone
SR:
"you know Israel is most important enemy of Iran.
how many Jew are now living in Iran?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
Iran has high population of jew.
why they are not treated like Bahai people?"
The situation is widely different between the two cases. You accept Jews to be a religion sent by God as it is mentioned in the Koran while the very concept of Baha'i faith threatens the very fundamental belief which the extremest regime holds, and that being Islam is the best and completest, and newest of religions. Of course the treatment in the cases differ, if it didn't it would have been a surprise.
SR: "RELIGION IS NOT PROBLEM OF BAHAI PEOPLE. PROBLEM IS SECRET POLITICAL ACTIVITIES."
Again, the problem of which you are incapable of giving a concrete example, a case with substantial court evidence. Not some wage references.
SR. "are you free to speech against Israel or Holocaust?"
Search for Antisemitism in U.S.
"for what time? after Iran revolution or before? for what reason? only faith? or political? please do not refer to bahai references."
There were for recent years. You don't read the comments at all. The question was what kind of political act constitutes as the punishment destruction of cemeteries. Clearly, this kind punishment targets people of the religion not individual persons and to any person with mind represents discrimination against race and religion.
SR: "please show me only one law in iran about "violate privacy of non-Muslim citizen"
I think the previous comments have take care of that part. I don't see any need to reiterate. But for the sake of the discussion, the facebook accounts were used to crack down opposition after the election.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
are you Koran professional?
I mentioned that verse of Koran in this topic before.
I asked you read past comments and do not jump in a topic without reading past comments.
Koran clearly said it.
"The situation is widely different between the two cases."
yes i agree. I and we (Muslims) strongly claim Bahai faith is a human made religion and is not a religion sent from God at all.
but this is not the main reason of situation of Bahai people in Iran. main reason is secret political activities.
"concrete example,"
OK I need time for this concrete example you want.
but now the Hoveida is a example.
"Search for Antisemitism in U.S."
I know people going to jail for that.
please check my comments here:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3325/has_the_holocaust_card_been.html
"There were for recent years."
please show me the exact information to I can search about it.
"The question was what kind of political act constitutes as the punishment destruction of cemeteries."
are you sure such political act exist? some times some ignorant religious people do some things and then those people are punished in court. please do not consider this a rule.
please show some evidence about this.
about religion Bahai citizens have only some legal limitations. other are related to political activities of them. not religion. please do not mix religion and politics.
"I think the previous comments have take care of that part"
please show clearly a law of Iran "violate privacy of non-Muslim citizen"
they are some claims from Bahai links not iran law.
you can find Iran laws by googling.
"the facebook accounts were used to crack down opposition after the election."
sorry what you mean?
Sometimes Someone
I don't see any need to justify myself to you, but since you asked, I've lived in Iran and have conducted first hand research in many of the issues you simply deny here or misrepresent. I also learned both Arabic and Persian, and that's why I'm annoyed by many of your interpretations as the text does not imply what you claim.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
do you know Arabic?
so do know the verse in Koran saying Muhammad (PBUH) was final prophet?
not any one lived in Iran know everything about Iran.
do you know about Iran Iraq war?
please explain some about your first hand research.
you mean you asked from people influenced by propaganda of satellite channels like BBC?
Comment deleted
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
please be polite and show rational talks instead of such kind of talk. I consider this kind of escape.
"for not having the same opinion as yours. "
people not having same opinion have no problem. I showed you example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
also Iranian Christians or Iranian Zoroastrians or other minorities.
please understand different of religious differences and secret political activities.
"I can only hope you are not a member of the Basij militia group "
I am not. or I am not member of any political group. I am not interested in political talks but some people on ted asked me start this topic and some people started political talks here. when I see some political facts are abused in name of religion I feel responsibility to reply them.
"I'm feeling lucky to have seen enough Muslims and Iranians not to make any generalization based on your comments."
the majority of Iranians are unknown. and who are in benefit of west are made big in media like TV.
do you know near one million people voluntary were killed in Iran Iraq war? such people still are majority in Iran and each of them are equal to 10 simple people because they do not fear death (even love death) but they fear death (even fear being injured).
also I asked you show me the verse in Koran saying Muhammad (PBUH) was final prophet of God in Koran (if you know Arabic) but you claimed Koran has not such thing.
OK. this is that verse:
http://tanzil.net/#33:40
nice poem. also I say it to you.
do you know what said Nietzsche about Hafiz?
I do not know you are Iranian or not but I hope you have a nice life and a nice death!
Sometimes Someone
My previous comment was found to be on the offensive side. In the spirit of civility, I'd like to assure you it wasn't meant to insult you. I suppose my poor choice of words implied something utterly different from what I intended to say. I'd like to apologize to you if that was the case.
Although, I still don't see any points in further continuing this discussion as clearly we both have difficulties communicating our ideas across, and instead of bringing mutual understanding it would cause animosity and additional misunderstandings.
However, if I may, I'd like to make a suggestion which you might find of some help in your future discussions. I would have personally preferred if you could tell us more about the solutions the Koran offers about the problems we're facing now such as the Global Warming or World Poverty. I think people are generally more interested to see the practical side of ideas as opposed to pure theological reasoning. As you are well aware of, it is the deeds that indeed matter.
Thanks and I also wish you a nice life. With regards to death, Khayyam puts it impeccably,
Oh, come with old Khayyam, and leave the Wise
To talk; one thing is certain, that Life flies;
One thing is certain, and the Rest is Lies;
The Flower that once has blown for ever dies.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
its is nice idea about what Koran says about problems we're facing now such as the Global Warming or World Poverty.
I am ready. they need new topic.
here is off topic
but people basically disbelief in God and that Koran is from God.
I think the density of atheism in TED is high and Islam and Koran are usually attacked in TED.
but they are rally nice ideas and I consider it.
I think such topics exist and I should participate them.
anyway thanks for your idea and guide. I think it is better approach.
Richard Dawson 30+
Naiem Yeganeh "when you say we are Muslim Brothers, you are implicitly on the side of posing inequalities.
Lets say we are all brothers, Muslim and non-muslim doesn't matter."
Naiem Yeganeh with apologies to Omar Khayyam, One thing I know that time flies, what you have said is true, the rest is lies.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
many many families have motorcycle.
usually low income families have it.
and children grow up with motorcycle:
http://www.tabnak.ir/fa/news/172489/%D8%AA%D8%B5%D9%88%DB%8C%D8%B1-%DA%A9%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%B9%D8%B4%D9%82-%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%B1!
it can be bought by cheap price of even 200$
it has many applications.
many do business with it like taxi or posting parcels inside city in quick time.
and it is car for low income families.
http://cache-01.fozoolemahaleh.com/2010/12/farhang_iran.jpg
http://www.econews.ir/fa/Files/NewsImages/2009/51_6_Fixd.jpg
also girls use it:
http://rashtpatogh.ir/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/13036544601.jpg
and some times:
http://deznn.persiangig.com/image/big-pic3/tasadof.jpg
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
http://www.tabnak.ir/fa/news/173235/%D8%AA%D8%B5%D8%A7%D9%88%DB%8C%D8%B1-%DA%A9%D9%85%D8%AA%D8%B1-%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%AF%D9%87-%D8%B4%D8%AF%D9%87-%D8%A7%D8%B2-%D8%AA%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%B1-%D8%B1%D9%87%D8%A8%D8%B1%DB%8C-%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%84-60
terror of Mr. Khamenei, current leader of Iran after Khomeini.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhollah_Khomeini
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Khamenei
sha b
http://masihalinejad.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/44l02843.jpg
I'll just add that its photographer Maryam Majd is in prison now.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
who is maryam majd?
what says this pic?
what is source of this news?
please do not prejudice. I do not know her.and even I do not know if such human exist or not. Only I wan to check.
i only could find thousands of weblogs and not valid links plus bbc and voa copying the same news text.
can you please show a valid reference for that to I know who is really?
I really have no idea about it. I want to first make sure about this news.
Mario Tinoco
I have some questions about Iran that relates to my difficulty to understand Middle East dynamics (from outside is really really hard to understand complex historical process). A professor said to me that Iran is the modern Persia, but i don't like accepting just this as explanation of Iran (what is rather obvious, nothing can be explained like this), so:
- How do Persian culture relates to religion?
- How Iran relates to neighbors culture? The same professor said that no one likes Iran on Middle East cause of cultural differences, is that right?
- How do you guys relate to statements that Iran doesn't respect human rights? Is it true, rhetoric, ideological pressure from the West? (i live on Brazil and my country was recently criticized for supporting Iran, and i think this is a rather politicized question)
Hope none of my questions are stupid. If you wanna ask about Brazil i can explain some misconcepts too, we are usually portrayed as jungle monkeys.
sha b
What we have as a culture in Iran today is a mixture of Persian culture and religion, Sometime you can't tell them apart and sometime you can.
How Iran relates to neighbors culture?
I assume by Iran, You mean Iranian people, Not the government.
Arabs and Turks: Well when one looks back there is a long history of conflicts, wars and today? We still carry "cultural differences" with Arabs after all this time, Turks kind of had made their way inside, I have to admit Iranians sometimes don't like Arabs much, I can't say the same for Turks thought, a major ethnic group in Iran is Turks. Also in southern Iran there are Arabs who have mostly migrated to Iran a few generations before.
There are this countries:Iraq,Turkey,Armenia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan. Never noticed anything about Iranians general attitude toward others, they only noticeable one to me is Iraq, Which is an Arab country, who was as we all know at war with Iran not long ago.
And the other thing that comes to my mind is the Arabs constant try on renaming the Persian Gulf to Arabian Gulf.
"How do you guys relate to statements that Iran doesn't respect human rights? "
Like I have said before to others too, don't equate Iran's government with it's people. Who's human's rights is being talked about here? That's right:"ours". The ones that made that statement in the first place were ourselves. The West is just repeating it for their own benefit.
The way you putted it, sounded to me like you believed Brazil supported Iran's government out of goodness of its heart? Like if Lula has seen with his own eyes that people in Iran were getting killed, He'd say "ok, Who cares about money and power when someone is hurt? I am stopping any trades with Iran because I am compassionate like that".
Mario Tinoco
When you put "Like I have said before to others too, don't equate Iran's government with it's people." this was just the intention of my questioning. I've never met a iranian on my life so i couldn't know this. From outside we can rely mostly on media, and media can't get all the facts (or don't want to).
There was a recent case of the woman sentenced to be buried on ground and etc... That's just what i know about the case, because the media only portrayed this fact. There are no speculations about if the social consciousness is in favor of it. My intention was to discover if there was political cohesion between someone here at TED and the political elites of Iran (as i can see from the debate below this answer could be very different if S.R had responded).
But the most interesting thing you pointed out in your answer was the fact that media really portrays that Human Rights claims are something to be seen from outside to inside Iran. The fact that an Iranian that put his face on tv and lay some critics on the government and on human rights will probably get in to trouble helps the western media monopolizing that process.
About Lula's question, the political approach to Iran was based on purely ideological movements of his advisor on external affairs (Marco Aurélio Garcia, a stupid pig). The real interest was to create a movement where Brazil would be skirting on USA's influence to make an coalition of interests outside USA's arm. This would have an pragmatic objective cause Brazil aims a seat on Security Counsel. I found Lula's external affaris approach very stupid. Brazil has NOTHING in common with Iran, and no matters in common, and this was a stupid movement. USA's sanction on nuclear weapons matter on Iran proved that this was stupid, they pissed on it. Our new president tho (DIlma, Lula's sucessor) has changed brazilian position towards Human Rights and external affairs.
sha b
I think of Brazilians as *very* happy people.
Mario Tinoco
We work very hard around here, but the impression this symbols pass is that we are always on carnival hehe.
Jim Moonan 30+
I think virtually all cultures are largely misunderstood by those outside their own culture, and for good reason: people live within their own culture and it is hard to imagine another culture that is different.
For me, the thing that helps overcome that ignorance is conversations like this. Also having the opportunity to live in a place where there is multi-ethnicity.
Jason Kather 10+
I have never heard that negative reference used to describe Brazilian people either. I think American culture is fascinated with Brazil, not disrespectful toward Brazil. That is only what I have seen though.
sha b
Mario Tinoco
But many times, when asked, americans think we live on rainforest (a guy asked me on vegas if it was true that there were leopards on street on Rio de Janeiro). It's the same thing as most of brazilians think of all americans being the a typical new york citizen. The bad jokes and insults come with fat persons eating hamburguers (which is a image as bizarre as portraying us as monkeys).
And surely, talks like this are the best way to discover more about people. Especially this on Iran, which has a so different context than ours on the West.
PS: I hope i wasn't misunderstood, i love America and have some american friends, but these histories or images are perpetrated by some alienated persons.
Jim Moonan 30+
Thanks for being so honest and considerate -- You can never be too much of either one!
Linda Woodard
What I found to be interesting about this site, is that I think Americans are in the minority. By randomly looking at 20 pages of members, I saw that there were way more international Tedsters than there are American ones! And even though more than likely these Americans are not "geographically challenged" , we sure can learn a lot about other countries and their people by just reading and partaking in what this part of TED offers us.
Regards from Florida (and NO...I do not have alligators roaming my neighborhood ;-)!)
Mario Tinoco
Sometimes it creates problems -which is minor and sometimes funny- with celebrities too, that come here thinking that they can do anything (this is just an example, but Nick Oliveri of Queen of Stone Age got naked on the stage cause he thought Brazil was the country of carnival, all get naked, and this is not true).
sha b
Mario Tinoco
Like this one, on Simpson, which i find very disrespectful, although i love the series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCfdOVhkdwQ
If the person is alienated, and sees something like this, he will have only one view of people on Brazil: monkeys, jungle, and so on.
About the aligators, it's funny because in fact here where i live there are crocodiles (small ones tho) and i see them everyday. This is not common on Rio or Brazil tho. But i never associated Florida to alligators hehe.
Regards from Rio!
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"The same professor said that no one likes Iran on Middle East cause of cultural differences, is that right?"
this is different if you consider governments or people.
If you consider people near all countries like or even love Iran specially Iraq Syria turkey Bahrain Azerbaijan Egypt Pakistan (Shia people of Pakistan have huge religious pilgrims to Iran) Only in few countries some groups of people hate Iran specially Wahhabi people in Saudi Arabia (in Saudi Arabia there are two main sunny group which one is Wahhabi and near 10-15% shia. Only Wahhabi people hate Shia and Iran. Wahhabi people have power in saudi Arabia but government (Saudi family) is not so much friend with Wahhabi group. and few extreme branches of sunny people. But most sunny people like Iran and Shia Imams. Like Egypt people.
in mid east countries loving Iran in order:
But if you consider governments it is different and it determined by relation to US. How much a government has more close relation to US and Israel it has more bad relation to Iran. Iran and Israel are two opposite extreme. The only country has very bad relation with Iran in middle east is Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has extreme fear from Iran and US has some important military base in Saudi Arabia.
"- How do you guys relate to statements that Iran doesn't respect human rights?"
Islamic laws have some conflicts with UN human rights. So Iran does not respect them. For example in Islam the hand of thief should be cut and the punish of some Islamic crimes is being killed. For example if a married woman have sex with another man should be killed.
But according to UN pressures on Iran such rules are not carried out or limited.
Mario Tinoco
About Brazil doing business with Iran, i agree and Iran has a huge food market that would be great for Brazil answer this demand (food production is Brazil's driving economic force on international market).
But doing business is doing business. I'm not doing a moral critic on Iran, but on strategic thinking, aligning with Iran was an error, based on a unrealistic view that aligning with isolated countries can make Brazil be a leader of the interest of these countries. USA wrote down an sanction against Iran, and Brazil was forced to sign. This was PATHETIC, an awful error of diplomacy.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I disagree. doing business is a sign of friendship.
why US does not do business with Iran?
why US banned all US companies to do business with Iran.
Iran has no problem to do business with US companies. but it is banned by US government.
UN only banned some special businesses with Iran mainly related to nuclear.
but US illegally and out or UN rules forces all US companies and even forces all countries to stop business with Iran. why?
now no bank in world do any transaction with Iran.
but many countries and many companies does not care about US and do business with Iran. although some do business hidden to US does not know and make problem for them.
business and politics and strategy and moral are mixed. not separate.
"aligning with Iran was an error"
it depends on beliefs and related to religion.
US is big supporter of Israel and Israel has great in influence in US government and parliament.
if any parliament member in US say anything against Israel should say bye bye to parliament.
you mean Brazil should agree US and Israel in politics against Iran? why?
please note Brazil is not alone.
now many countries are with Iran and one by one countries are leaving US and joining Iran in world balance. Egypt revolution highly changed the balance in favor of Iran. Mubarak was puppet of Israel and Egypt quickly started biz and policy with Iran and now tied with Iran. the future is for Iran. because Iran has no nuclear military thing. and all Iran nuclear is peaceful and for energy and UN is watching everything related to nuclear in Iran and nothing found like nuclear nuke not found in Iraq. and work finally will know truth that all the sanctions has source in Israel and all US veto against Iran is for supporting Israel.
the two main pole in world are Israel and Iran. and US and UN are only puppets in hand of Israel. media is controlled but internet helps very much to people know truth.
world is changing and future is for Iran.
Mario Tinoco
Yes, i agree with you that US makes sanctions on Iran on economic, business and trade not because of nuclear weapons, but because it's interesting for Israel and they support Israel. But this is purely POLITICAL MOTIVATION. Brazil has no interest on Israel or Iran, or Middle East in general. There is no reason for Brazil meddling with this, no one -except for the ideological view. Aligning with Iran was a STRATEGIC error, not ideological error (if that exists) or in terms of amity or enmity.
For Brazil, doing business with Iran is just business and trade. For US, Israel, UN, it's not just business, for sure, it's politics.
And sorry, i don't want to opposite to your beliefs, but Iran and Israel are not the two main poles of the world, there is no main pole in the world, it's a web of interests.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
The past and current president are supporter of Iran and also new president and Brazil does not recognize business sanctions against Iran and have good business with Iran. Iran has huge business with Brazil. I heard some Brazilian company managers said me:
"Brazil is with Iran"
Brazilian people are very similar to Iran people in culture (said by a iranian woman married to Brazilian footballer)
About Iraq Iran had war and problem with Ba'ath Party leaded by Saddam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%27ath_Party
But Iraq people are mostly Shia and love Iranians. Recently after Saddam Iran has huge business with Iraq and because of high cost of transport of materials nearly only Iran is now reconstructing Iraq.
Iran has huge export to Iraq and Iraqi people prefer to buy from Iran.
Dear sha b,
"Like I have said before to others too, don't equate Iran's government with it's people."
I believe at least 60% or more of Iran people want Iran government because Islamic beliefs. And I consider majority of Iran people supporting government although people have many economic and job critiques with government.
"Lula has seen with his own eyes that people in Iran were getting killed,"
A president of a country is not is ignorant to get information from propaganda of media. Brazil president knows truth about Iran.
Dear mario,
About woman sentenced to be buried on ground :
Yes this is an Islamic law for a married woman having sex with other man. but according to UN pressures nearly is not carried out.
Please note Iran rules are made from Islamic rules.
Jim Moonan 30+
Those who might know, please comment on the following questions I have:
What are the typical jobs that Iranians do to make money?
What is the cultural arts climate like? Do you have music, art, entertainment from around the world?
How much social pressure (not official" - reality) Does the typical Iranian have on them to conform to political/ideological/Islamic views?
On a scale of 1-10, what would you say is is the level of freedom of speech?
Where do Iranians go on vacation?
Do Iranian families have pets?
How much of a multi-cultural environment does Iran have?
Can women participate in/do everthing that men can or are there extra restrictions on them because they are women?
Apart from politics/government, what countries/people do Iranians most admire? Least?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I reply according my knowledge and opinion:
What are the typical jobs that Iranians do to make money?
a large portion are governmental employee. the Oil has made government big and a large part of economy and Jobs is for government. also private businesses exist. nearly all kind of business exist. but some that have conflict with Islam are limited or banned. like music which is not completely banned but is limited to rules of Islam. specially about women singing and dancing.
What is the cultural arts climate like? Do you have music, art, entertainment from around the world?
officially arts and music and cinema are limited according to Islamic rules and international movies displaed in official media and TV are censored in some sexy parts. but in privet and home people use any kind they like by CD, DVD, satellite, Internet and so on.
How much social pressure (not official" - reality) Does the typical Iranian have on them to conform to political/ideological/Islamic views?
social (not official) pressure is only from extreme religious people but year by year it is becoming less and less because they are not so much supported by law and people prefer leave the pressure for government.
religious people only when feel serious danger for revolution or Islam take actions like parade.
On a scale of 1-10, what would you say is is the level of freedom of speech?
depends on subject. if not oppose of Islam and revolution 10. if yes depends its is really for knowledge (10) or is for destroying Islam or revolution in face or speech. (0)
Where do Iranians go on vacation?
many places like Shomal (coast of Caspian sea) or many other nice places
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
in rural mostly have hen and so no. but in cities mostly no. only few have. having dog inside home which human and dog breath same air is prohibited in Islam, but not for guarding out of home. only few people mostly who have western interests have dog and cat in cities.
How much of a multi-cultural environment does Iran have?
because at least near 95% of Iranians are Muslims culture has mostly Islamic background. but different ethnic and different regional have different cultures.
year by year according to more and more influence of western culture by Hollywood movies and media by CD DVD satellite and Internet people specially young's are absorbing western culture. and Islamic and western culture are side by side.
Can women participate in/do everything that men can or are there extra restrictions on them because they are women?
women should wear Hijab in public official places. although many of women do not wear Hijab completely as Islamic rules. in Islam the hair of woman should not bee seen by stranger man. but in streets hair of many women can be seen.
about Job there is few restrictions according to Islam. for example women can not be Judge in Islam. but driving management and near all jobs is allowed for women. although in Islam if a woman want to work out of home should have the permit of husband. and husbands usually permit. although Islam encourages 9not rule) women to stay home and try for training of child's. but many of women are have jobs in different areas.
Apart from politics/government, what countries/people do Iranians most admire? Least
US, Canada, Europe.
Iranians Muslims have no problem with people of countries specially Christians but have problem with policies and government specially support of Israel.
and if Iranian Muslims curse western countries they mean policies and government (because of supporting Israel) not the people.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
also as touching body of opposite gender is banned some Jobs are separated. for example a woman doctor can only touch woman patient.
usually women have lower wage than mans because of need for money.
usually women have lower education.
in Iran rules and in Islam husband should cover living costs of his wife and woman has no duty to work and have income for family. and the income duty is by man.
but many women prefer to work voluntary to help economy of family.
in more religious families working of women out of home is lower and usually women stay at home or work at home.
if a woman have any income or money or property it is for herself and is not for husband but in Islam rules (Iran laws are based on Islam) women should spent by consult and permit of husband.
woman has financial independent and all her properties is for herself even after divorce and husband can not get money from woman by law. but if a woman work out of home prefer to help in costs to her husband but it is not duty of woman.
in case of divorce the property of woman and man are for themselves and is not distributed but man should pay the dowry (a usually high price determined by woman at marriage like a guarantee for example a home) to woman and if not woman can sue husband and send him to prison. and also woman can ask wage for working in home of husband for training children and making food or even for milk to child and they are rights of woman.
in case of inheritance the portion of woman and man is not equal and man gets more (double) because all the cost of home is by man and woman has no duty in costs of home and family.
at marriage woman can set terms and limit the rights of husband.
love and family have high value in Iran families and rare mans have more than one wife because of heavy legal and Islamic duties and costs for having wife.
Richard Dawson 30+
How many wives are men allowed? What is the minimum age for marriage in Iran? Aside from judges what other jobs are not allowed? Waitresses? Can they be Bank Managers? Members of the Government? The President? Can a Christian or non-Muslim be a judge?
"also as touching body of opposite gender is banned some Jobs are separated. for example a woman doctor can only touch woman patient."
What about man doctor touching woman patient?
"usually women have lower wage than mans because of need for money." What do you mean by "need for money"?
"usually women have lower education."
But for the same education as the man or more, why does the woman get less wage?
sha b
"According to UNESCO world survey, Iran has the highest female to male ratio at primary level of enrollment in the world among sovereign nations, with a girl to boy ratio of 1.22 : 1.00." (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Iran#Women_in_education),
We have an entrance exam for universities, after it turned out girls are always coming on top, and the result would be more female university graduates, they changed the conditions of entering universities and put retractions for girls, it means a girl has to get a higher score to be in the same place(university/major) as a boy.
And even if that isn't enough, they also limited the (university-major)s who accepts girls.
Richard Dawson 30+
It seems that equality of women with men, though the men be inferior in education, is also prohibited in Islam.
Tim blackburn 30+
sha b
"typical jobs": that's a very general question, In any case I'd say only a minority are actually producing something, Most are a part of a chain that just buy someone's product and sell it to another.
"cultural arts climate " : We are "illegally" connected to art,music and cinema of the other countries(and sometimes or own country, cause a part of what is produced here is illegal too)-Iran's state TV might even show American movies too sometimes, But they are censored very vigorously, In some cases even the main story changes, I remember in the version of "The Fall of the Roman Empire" that I saw on TV, There was no Sophia Loren .
"How much social pressure (not official" - reality) Does the typical Iranian have on them to conform to political/ideological/Islamic views?":
That's what we all were talking about for the past week(s?). Start reading from the beginning of this thread. It's an official pressure, As someone who clashes with that pressure routinely I say very damn real indeed. To be honest I didn't get what are you asking...(not official" - reality)!? You mean do they say "We are putting pressure on you now"? (Ironically, sometimes they do that too- Like each year a few days before Summer, They warn people with "bad hijab" about what would happen to them:
http://www.a%yandenews.com/news/31194/ I intentionally put a % in the link, clear it in your address bar)
"On a scale of 1-10, what would you say is is the level of freedom of speech? "
1 /And that's because I am (semi)free on the internet.
Where do Iranians go on vacation? You mean out of country? Most rich people go to Dubai. others go to vacation too, to other cities, depending on the season and the occasion: This ones get more crowded during holidays :Northern Iran(Mazandaran & Gilan), Mashhad, Isfahan, Shiraz, Kish, Ahwaz or any other place actually)
Jim Moonan 30+
The recent conversation seemed to have gotten derailed into Islamic and Muslem back and forth and I think that almost always ends up with polarized opinions taking over...
Sorry you feel that way about Americans. I hope it is not based on Hollywood and movies and TV. My feeling is that every culture has it's pluses and minuses. I think respect and tolerance and education and freedom of speech and the pursuit of happiness on earth are important to me. What would you say are important ideals to you?
What do you consider to be extremist views in terms of politics and religion?
I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter". When societies have cultural and religious and political conflicts, what do you think are the right ways to overcome or at least control that conflict so that the people don't become hateful of other people?
sha b
And on Americans, Never had met any Americans actually, only on the internet, Why be sorry? I can like individuals, It's the " American culture" that I can't understand, What is generally considered favorable in a person in American culture. What is valued more by general American standards.
"one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter"
I guess we are talking about two different things, You are talking about Iran vs America, we are talking about what goes on"inside" Iran. Only inside Iran. terrorists/freedom fighters and ect sound so Afghanistan/America to me.
Well I don't know about "societies" and theories on countries in conflict. Here, Our concern is that people of different believes should be allowed(by the government) to be alive.
sha b
"How much of a multi-cultural environment does Iran have?"
multi-culturism is noticeable in our different ethnic groups, I guess it's only noticeable to ourselves. In any case we aren't unified by any standard. A very mixed culture. Thought there are things that we all share.
"Can women participate in/do everthing that men can or are there extra restrictions on them because they are women?"
Well, To name a few: I can't ride a bicycle or play volleyball outside when there are morality polices around. Also the number of women who can be accepted in some majors in universities are limited and in some majors no woman is allowed to be admitted.
The thing is in this area I rarely have a problem with people or society, the restrictions mostly come from the authorities and "their" pressure to keep women at home.
"Apart from politics/government, what countries/people do Iranians most admire? Least? "
Well, So far, It seems to me you think we are unified. Not really. I speak for myself I feel kind of more connected to native Americans ,Irish people, the continent of Africa, Greece, Spain and Latins. The least?... Americans are not my cup of tee.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"Also the number of women who can be accepted in some majors in universities are limited "
can you show evidence? as I now it was only a suggestion to parliament. but not accepted by parliament. perhaps I am wrong. can you show evidence?
as I know the girls are near 60% of university students. year by year girls are occupying universities more and more and boys are having smaller portion year by year.
university in Iran is free (also paid exist. but most universities and famous universities are governmental and free) and so young have great Entrance competition to enter university specially girls with no husband for attracting rich mans for marriage by having free higher education certificate.
I think you are influenced from propaganda against Iran about women rights.
"and in some majors no woman is allowed to be admitted."
which university you mean?
I know only Alzahra university that it for girls and has boy students but mostly girls.
or Imam Sadiq university has both boy and girl but separated.
as I know all universities has boy and girl. please let me know for my information.
""their" pressure to keep women at home."
in Iran women are free to work out of home and ONLY it is recommended to woman stay at home and it depends to the husband and woman is free choose which kind of husband and also can set terms in legal marriage contract.
do which pressure you mean for staying at home?
please show evidence for pressure.
sha b
How long has it been since you have seen seen any(BS, MS, PHD, any university) entrance exam's catalog(دفترچه کنکور)
Check out this years or the past years or the year before that,
The one I have recently came upon is this year, for "Science and Industry university":
توسعه اقتصادي و برنامه ريزي (12 مرد)
مديريت تكنولوژي (12 مرد)
مديريت اجرايي (15 مرد)
شيمي – شيمي فيزيك (9 مرد + 1 مرد شبانه)
شيمي – شيمي آلي (11 مرد)
شيمي – شيمي معدني (12 مرد)
شيمي - شيمي تجزيه (9 مرد)
فيزيك گرایش اتمی مولکولی (13 مرد)
فيزيك گرایش حالت جامد (14 مرد)
فوتونيك (8 مرد)
آمار رياضي (8 مرد)
رياضي محض گرایش آنالیز (8 مرد)
رياضي محض گرایش جبر (5 مرد)
رياضي محض گرایش هندسه (3 مرد)
رياضي كاربردي گرایش آنالیز عددی (18 مرد)
رياضي كاربردي گرایش تحقیق در عملیات (3 مرد)
مهندسي برق – الكترونيك (30 مرد + 1 مرد شبانه(
مهندسي برق – قدرت گرايش حفاظت شبكه (6 مرد(
مهندسي برق – قدرت گرايش سیستم های قدرت (9 مرد + 5 مرد شبانه)
مهندسي برق– قدرت ماشین های الکتریکی (15 مرد + 2 مرد شبانه)
مهندسي برق – مخابرات گرایش سیستم (12 مرد)
مهندسي برق – مخابرات گرایش میدان (19 مرد + 1 مرد شبانه)
مهندسي فناوري اطلاعات گرایش مخابرات امن (10 مرد)
مهندسي برق – كنترل کنترل و علائم (10 مرد)
مهندسي برق – كنترل (18 مرد)
راه آهن برقي (6 مرد)
مهندسي پزشكي – بيوالكتريك (12 مرد)
مهندسي شيمي گرايش ترموديناميك و سينتيك (15 مرد)
مهندسي شيمي گرايش طراحي فرآيندهاي جداسازی (6 مرد + 2 مرد شبانه)
مهندسي شيمي گرايش طراحي، شبيه سازي و كنترل فرآيندها (12 مرد + 3 مرد شبانه)
مهندسي صنايع – صنايع (17 مرد)
مهندسي حمل و نقل ريلي (2 مرد)
مهندسي صنايع - مديريت سيستم و بهره وري (14 مرد)
مهندسي سيستم هاي اقتصادي اجتماعي (17 مرد)
مهندسي حمل و نقل ريلي (2 مرد)
مهندسي عمران – سازه (17 مرد)
مهندسي عمران - مهندسي زلزله (21 مرد)
مهندسي عمران - مكانيك خاك و پي (18 مرد)
مهندسي عمران – راه و ترابري (15 مرد + 4 مرد شبانه)
مهندسي عمران – مهندسي آب (8 مرد)
مهندسي عمران – سازه هاي هيدروليكي (8 مرد)
مهندسي عمران – سازه هاي دريايي (8 مرد)
مهندسي عمران - برنامه ريزي حمل و نقل (19 مرد)
sha b
"I know the girls are near 60% of university students."
*If* it was fair, and equal opportunity was provided, Back then more girls get higher scores than boys, and that's why girls used to be ahead, Now the rules have changed to prevent that from happening, as I said before girls have to get a higher score for the same position as boys now.
"Which major?" Engineering and technical ones. Look at the number of sits that are reserved for one specific gender in any university's entrance exam, Are you kidding me?
Are you actually saying you haven't noticed that before?
"please show evidence for pressure."
Next time Petroleum, and Oil or Steel or any other big governmental company has announced that they are hiring, see the gender section.
Or when you are filling another entrance exam, take a look at the number of girls who can be admitted.
Or next time Ahmadinejhad is talking about the woman who used to drive a bus listen to it.
Debra Smith 200+
sha b
It's a...some kind of shared spirit among many Iranians(-in before SR says it's just a few Iranians who have been watching BBC).
To be honest, I don't enjoy being the only one from that "shared spirit" here. Maybe it's immature of me.
Linda Woodard
And going with that...I looked at your profile and noticed that you played volleyball. May I ask is it through a league or?? If you explained it and I missed it sorry. What other sports are females allowed to play. And on that same vein, may I ask about how Iranian women view working out and getting "toned" and such?? I am curious about this.
Thank you!!!!
Debra Smith 200+
That reminds me of something, LInda. I read that one of the major predictors of a woman's success in business and thus financially is whether or not she played sports as a child and teenager. Maybe it is true when you see the guts that Sha B demonstrates here!
***Let's just make sure we do not ask her any questions that would make it easy for someone who wanted to harm her could find her.
sha b
Yes, off course we have leagues, And not only volleyball, all sports have leagues for women too.
We play inside a gym: players, referee, staff, viewers(:not much viewers, mostly other teams and their staff, player's family members ) and anyone who is in is female.
"how Iranian women view working out and getting "toned" and such"
Most women don't have time for it. And some just don't feel the need to.
I am guessing maybe there are some that keep themselves out of sports in fear of becoming indelicate and un-fragile.
sha b
so @ Debra,
@ anyone else: don't read if you don't want to:
Debra:) That was the mother in you. Thank you.
Speaking as an anonymous and guts? Not to be confused by me acting humbly but I have seen people with real guts.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Check out this years or the past years or the year before that, "
the real stat of entrance shows girls are more than boys. usually girls are 50-60%
and as I know there is no rule about limiting girls for entering university.
"entrance exam's catalog(دفترچه کنکور) "
what you copied here is only a small part of hundreds of pages. in this page you are right.
but the fact is that usually girls are accepted more than boys in exam of entering university in Iran.
"*If* it was fair, and equal opportunity was provided, Back then more girls get higher scores than boys,"
so do you accepts girls are more than boys in universities?
also opportunity is already fair.
what you said was only a suggestion to parliament which was not accepted.
real stat shows girls are more. we are not in dream. real stat is important.
also please not out of women rights if girls have much higher entrance there will be some social problems in future. all things should not be taken for women rights.
who want to make propaganda relate everything to women right.
I heard women want to make parade to protest against why the word businessman is not businesswoman.
the real fact is that some are enemy of Islam use anything to destroy Islam even making propaganda about not real human rights.
"Which major?" Engineering and technical ones.
can you show evidence? I not sure abut that. but in Tehran university and polytechnic and some other that I know girls are same as boys in Engineering and technical. but usually girls themselves does not select such because their prefers and scores not limitations.
"Look at the number of sits that are reserved for one specific gender in any university's entrance exam, Are you kidding me?"
I know the fact that stat of girls is more. total is important. not one page.
Are you actually saying you haven't noticed that before?
sha b
Call me weak or whatever you want. But I didn't even read thorough your message this time.
This thread has become like my email inbox, I have to check it every day, Already 300and something comments and I don't see it stopping from increasing so fast in any near feature.
Wait for Naim or anyone else to take you from here. I am out.
Have a good life.(you'll be in for a lot of surprises, I'll tell you that much)
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
this is evidence?
in all of companies you said both woman and man are working. please refer to real stat. not your Imaginations and what you heard.
yes some places need only man. but please refer to total stat.
"Or when you are filling another entrance exam, take a look at the number of girls who can be admitted."
do you disagree totally girls enter universities more than boys?
I do not see any evidence from you.
one page of catalog is not evidence.
"Or next time Ahmadinejhad is talking about the woman who used to drive a bus listen to it."
woman are free to drive bus. I see many of them in Tehran.
please refer to valid stat and facts. you are showing only your personal beliefs perhaps influenced from propaganda against Iran.
woman have good rights in Iran. in some cases even more than west. specially about their rights in marriage.
does western woman have financial independent against their husband?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Dear Muhammad,
"You are confirming everyone's worst nightmare of Islam.
I read above that you quoted the expression the width between truth and lie are four fingers from the eye to the ear."
I want peace and please look below video's about nightmare of Islam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqYNydEH5Sk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuMLZGKh4HU&playnext=1&list=PL1B867BF2B1E509C9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ5dN68tvQc
Adib Masumian
http://bahai-library.com/pdf/2010_08/masumian_debunking.pdf (English)
http://bahai-library.com/pdf/2010_08/masumian_debunking_persian.pdf (Persian/فارسی)
Unlike the allegations put forth by Mr. Ahmadi—all of which are baseless and come from the vitriolic thought of Muslim clerics who have incentive to quell variance in thought in order to maintain "Islamic unity" and loyalty to the regime they have created—the rebuttals offered in this book are made on solid foundations, deriving their arguments from investigations done by both Baha'is and non-Baha'is. Most prominently, the notion of the Baha'i Faith being either a brainchild of Western imperialism or international Zionism is thoroughly refuted. It's not a particularly difficult task to accomplish when the initial arguments are totally fanciful.
For example, the idea that Baha'is who are arrested could not have been victimized simply for their religious affiliation—they must have been spies. Yes, Mr. Ahmadi; I am sure Mona Mahmudnizhad—a 16 year old Sunday school teacher, executed by hanging on June 18, 1983—was conducting espionage for Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Mahmudnizhad
http://bit.ly/mRZpFd (Same link as above in Persian)
We can also consider Abdu'l-Vahaab Kazemi, an 85 year old man who had never even left his village in Yazd, executed as a spy on September 8, 1980:
http://bit.ly/kYWVzy
I also urge the readership here to peruse this relevant open letter from 1983:
http://info.bahai.org/article-1-8-3-19.html
http://bit.ly/k9Y9ry (The above in Persian)
And you know the present regime would go right on executing Baha'i adherents just as their ideological precursors did only 30 years before, if it hadn't been made so obvious to them that the whole world is watching their every move.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
happy to know you.
first please note I do not know and I do not know every individual Baha'i. what I say is not about you. its general about Baha'i and SOME of Bahia having connection with Israel to destroy Iran Islamic revolution.
"masumian_debunking_persian.pdf "
I have read some of this book.
you asked in page 4 of this book:
it is claimed by Shia that Pahlavi government (before revolution) had relations with Bahais. if so why Islamic leaders and Pahlavi government both cooperated to destroy Bahai?
I can reply so:
1- it was before revolution and after revolution claimed that SOME Bahia people have connection to Israel in order to get power in Iran and make government.
2- underground Baha'i meetings (for example Howeyda, prime minister of Shah) were trying to get power in Iran and make new government after destroying Shad power. this is reason of enmity of Shah to Baha'i.
about Islamic leaders it is
3- Bahai faith has some beliefs clearly with contradiction with Koran and beliefs of Muslims. for example considering Mr. Baha-allah the new prophet (some times last savior and some times God) after prophet of Islam that is clearly in contradict with Koran saying Muhammad (PBUH) was final prophet of God:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/33:40
so no wonder both Pahlavi and Islam have problem with Baha'i.
also I saw in your book you mentioned Mr. Hoveida an Iranian bahai. please remind this to Mr. Sen. becaue he claimed Mr. Hoveida was not Bahai.
also you had pics of killed bahai in this book. so what? yourself mentioned in they book they killed for spying. also Iran revolution has at least one million killed. what proves some pics of killed people?
also I consider many of claims in that book invalid. for example England given the "sir" to mr. Baha-ollah. or his home was in Haifa or he received the noble peace price. the noble peace prize is under control of Israel like UN.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
So what you say about documents found in Savak or at US embassy
at Iran revolution? They show SOME Bahai people like Hoveida had relations with Israel and Baha'i community and had plans to get power from Shah.
"For example, the idea that Baha'is who are arrested could not have been victimized simply for their religious affiliation—they must have been spies. Yes, Mr. Ahmadi; I am sure Mona Mahmudnizhad—a 16 year old Sunday school teacher, executed by hanging on June 18, 1983—was conducting espionage for Israel:"
1- I repeated many times I not defend any behavior happening in large Iran. In that wiki (not valid) link it is claimed she was forced to become Muslim. This is strict conflict with Islam:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:256
So I doubt to that claims of that wiki link be true. Or perhaps some Ignorant Muslim has done mistakes. This is not related to Koran and Islam. Stupid people can be found in any religion and any country. Do you like I find a stupid person in your religion or country and press you by throwing that fact to you?
If you have any argument about islam please use Koran. Or if about Iran please refer to Iran laws. Not to some behaviors of some Muslim.
Also I have you a main question:
if those Bahai are killed ONLY AND ONLY for religion and fait so why so many Bahei are living in Iran for at least 30 years and have not executed still?!!
Please accept the fact Indeed there is a difference between Bahais arrested or executed and Bahais who are living free in Iran. Do you deny this fact?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Also who wrote that letter are right but not 100%. Because not all Iranian Bahai are spy.
"And you know the present regime would go right on executing Baha'i adherents just as their ideological precursors did only 30 years before,"
maybe. I do not know future.
"if it hadn't been made so obvious to them that the whole world is watching their every move."
perhaps. Iran is under pressure of UN sanctions. But I consider the main reason
1-connections and supports from Israel.
2- Clear contradictions with Koran and Islam
also can I ask you:
1- what is exactly mr. baha-ollah? prophet of God? final savior? God? a simple human?
2-did he agree Koran? even http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/33:40 (Muhammad (PBUH) was final prophet)?
3- marriage with sister and daughter is allowed or banned in Baha'i faith? (not example)
please reply my questions clearly. and do not reply by some general unrelated information.
Sen McGlinn
"Sorry again for my English.I thought belief=religion.I agree with you.Anything that's negative towards anyone should be fight against.They teach people to be anti-sunni as well?"
Your English is good, but English is slippery. "Belief" can mean a religion, like Shi'ism, and that is worthy of respect. But belief can also mean one doctrine, or it can mean an ideology, like communist beliefs. I understand that you meant: we should respect the religion of the people of Iran, and then I agree with you.
Yes, the state-supported ideological classes that teach anti-Bahaism, also teach people what is wrong (as they see it) with Sunnism. They call Sunnism Wahhabism. You can get an idea from this article in Fars new agency advertising the success of one of these seminars (NB the image is offensive):
http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8901260159
In the picture, the blue with the star on it represents Judaism, the crown of thorns is Christianity, the red side is the Arabs/Sunni/Saudi kind of Islam, and the skull of course is death.
Fars News Agency is an important one, usually called a semi-official agency (it is apparently government-funded and controlled) - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fars_News_Agency.
Here's another Fars News Agency report (very offensive image):
http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8811190694
This one is targeted just at the Bahais, who are supposed to be spreading moral corruption among children and youth, using "my princess friends" disposable cups.
You can imagine the effect on the minds of the people, when they are faced with such hateful materials every day, when children get it at school, and the mosques which should be holy places are used to spread it, and it even reaches into universities.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
who call Sunnism Wahhabism? Iran? if you mean Iran this is not true. in Iran Sunnism is considered a branch of Islam and is respectable and in Iran Sunny people are called brothers. sunny
Sunnism has many branches and most of them has no problem with Shiaism and Iran has no problem with them. for example Iran has very good relation with sunny Muslims in Egypt.
the only branch of Sunnism that Iran has problem with is Wahhabism. Wahhabism is mainly in Saudi Arabia and has very extreme enmity and hate to Shia Muslims and even they wish to kill all Shia Muslims and killed many of shia untill now. also they are now killing Shia people in Bahrain by sending Wahhabi soldiers and military machines and others support to Bahrain cruel goverment to kill more and more Shia in Bahrain.
most cruel news you hear from Bahrain these days has source in Wahhabism.
bahrain has been part of Iran until recent years and Britain separated it from Iran.
in Iran Sunnism is not called Wahhabism. Wahhabism is only one branch of Sunnism.
"In the picture, the blue with the star on it represents Judaism, the crown of thorns is Christianity,"
not true. blue is symbol of Zeonism (not Judaism) and crown of thorns is US (support of US to Israei. not Christianity. Christianity is respected in Iran and many Christians are living in Iran with peace). and red is Wahhabism (not all Arabs). for example Iraqi and Egyptians are Arabs but Iranians and them love each other.
"(it is apparently government-funded and controlled)"
I do not know it is independent or semi. but what about BBC and CNN and VOA? BBC is 100% funded by England government and. most US large media are servants of Israel.
" (very offensive image):"
its about Baha'i and child abuse by Baha'i people in Iran. and the real pic is not shown. that pic is only symbolic.
it seems in Baha'i faith child abuse and homosexual and marriage with sister and daughter is allowed.
people are not stupid and find truth
Sen McGlinn
another sort-of-question SR asks is "as I know it is banned in Bahai that non bahai people know believes [beliefs] of Bahai. right?"
Naturally there is no truth at all in this. Bahai beliefs are available to everyone, published in hundreds of different languages, posted on internet sites, in Wikipedia and Britannica and Encyclopaedia Iranica etc... And SR could have proven this for himself with a 30-second search. But he does not seek the truth, he seeks confirmation of prejudices. Every system of "othering" a people has to include this theme of a secret teaching or secret behaviour which, somehow, is know to the propagandists of the prejudice. For example, if you want to spread hate about red-headed people, you claim they have a secret plot to seize power, or that they have secret meetings open only to red-headed people. Of course people say to themselves, "the red-headed people I know are not like that." But then, if there was a SECRET red-headed plot to rule the world, you wouldn't know about it, would you. So perhaps it does exist. So the sowers of prejudices spread mistrust and doubt to other people. Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam said for example: "Malaysians learn about the Baha'i faith in school.I am pretty sure they have no links with the Jews/Zionist/Israel. However, what S.R said did raise some questions.Who knows,right? anything is possible..."
In this case, it is about Bahais, but it could equally well be antisemitism, or racial prejudice, or ethnic prejudice. If you start to think that the XX might have a secret plot to seize power, or secret meetings where they insult your mother, etc., you become suspicious of that group. The plot could be so very very secret, no evidence ever comes out. Nobody can prove the plot does not exist. Best to play it safe and distrust them, ban them from universities, from government work ... and so a whole society can slide in paranoia and bigotry. Fear of the "other" is a potent poison
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Plus, you did not add another half of my comment which was that I don't like to accuse anyone without proof.What I meant was I wont accuse Baha'i s of incest in their culture.I need to study more about your religion.Give me time please.
Please,Sen.No hatred.No war.Just peace.
Sen McGlinn
you can ask me anything.
The articles in wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith
the BBC religions site
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/bahai/
and Encyclopaedia Iranica
http://www.iranica.com/articles/bahaism-index
are good. The Bahai scriptures are online, for example
http://reference.bahai.org/en/ (also in Persian and Arabic)
or
http://bahai-library.com/
or you can download them all in a search engine, which includes many other religious sources (1000 books of 10 world religions in English), at
http://bahai-education.org/ocean/
Then if you want to know about, say, incest, you choose the Bahai bookshelf in Ocean, type in "incest" and you find : "It is difficult to imagine a more reprehensible perversion of human conduct than the sexual abuse of children, which finds its most debased form in incest. (The Universal House of Justice, 1992, Violence and Sexual Abuse of Women and Children)
It is difficult to keep calm with S.R.Ahmadi. I do not understand why he is allowed on TED forums. These are some of the things he has said about Bahais:
- Bahai Faith is a fake religion made by Imperialism and supported by Israel for destroying Islam.
- Bahai Faith always sent secret information of Iran to Israel.
- they had many insults to Muslim leaders and Islamic schools.
- they wish fall of Iran revolution and getting power after it.
- Baha'i Faith was and still is a puppet of Israel inside Islam community for spying and destroying Islam.
- they are potentially ready to become agent of Israel ... it is a pre-planned process and takes many years to a bahai be ready for this job.
- marriage with daughter and sister is allowed in Baha'i faith ...
- it is banned in Bahai that non bahai people know believes [beliefs] of Bahai.
Anti-Bahaism should be unnacceptable, like antisemitism or racial prejudices. He believes that people with the wrong religion "have no rights as human." What useful thing could he tell us?
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
can you show the instructions related to marriage in Baha'i faith on links you provided?
please do not misquote me.
I repeated many times they are about some Baha'i people. not all.
also you did not reply my question about marriage clearly.
you only say no example exit. I am saying about beliefs of Baha'i not example.
if it is false simply show an evidence from religious references of Baha'i faith.
ADDED:
I checked some of your links. but still I have not found anything about that marriage with sister or daughter is allowed or banned in your links. please show me a direct link that show the instruction of Baha'i faith about marriage with sister and daughter.
also please reply my question about final prophet and Koran.
also please check these links:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm
http://www.thebahaitruth.com/
http://www.anti-bahai.com/site/modules.php?name=Mygroups&file=articles&topicid=30&gid=1
sha b
Are you serious? Your ideas on what Bahai's think and what their believes are comes from a site called anti-bahai?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes.
" Your ideas on what Bahai's think and what their believes are comes from a site called anti-bahai?"
not from anti-Bahai. but I have many references and evidences and books about Baha'i but they are Persian. thy are the only link I could find in English.
what is problem of anti-bahai?
you defend Bahai because freedom and it is faith. then you disagree anti-bahai?
anti-bahai is also a think and should be free.
what kind of freedom you agree?
any kind of freedom that has benefit for you?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
you said only some general sayings that is correct always.
please show some evidence and proof from your religion.
the base of Islam is Koran.
what is base of Baha'i faith? and please show a valid online source for viewing the instructions and beliefs of Baha'i faith. not a link with general information about Baha'i faith.
you can read Koran here:
www.tanzil.net
www.zekr.org
Sen McGlinn
Another sort-of-question from SR is this, "did you know Howeida ( prime minister before revolution) was a Bahai"
The thing is, SR has heard this so many times in books and media and blogs etc., he thinks it is true. But is it? Where is the evidence? Did Hoveida have a Bahai marriage? Did he raise his children as Bahais? Was he ever elected to serve on a Bahai Assembly (elected councils that run the affairs of local Bahai communities)? Did he ever go on Bahai pilgrimmage? Did he write anything in favour of the Bahais? The answer to all these questions of course is no. But people who are deeply prejudiced do not ask themselves rational questions that might test their beliefs. They seek confirmation, whereas the rational approach is to seek dis-confirmation (see Popper's work on the philosophy of science, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability ).
There are indications that suggest Hoveida could not have been a Bahai:
1) Hoveida joined the Foroughi Lodge of Freemasonry in 1960. Bahais are not permitted to be freemasons, by Bahai rules.
2) Documents from SAVAK made public after the 1979 revolution revealed that in 1967 Hoveida ordered the firing of Baha’is from the Ministry of Petroleum, and the termination of all Baha’i students who were studying nursing and were affiliated with that Ministry of Petroleum. (see Velveleh Dar Shahr, p. 103. Online at: http://www.velvelehdarshahr.org/ )
3) Hovedia repeatedly denied being a Bahai, and Bahais are not permitted to practice dissimulation (taqiyya), by Bahai rules. See for example Naraghi, Ehsan. From Palace to Prison: Inside the Iranian Revolution, 1994, p. 43.
But these are only indicative - the strongest logical answer to this rumour is that there is no evidence to support it. It is not rational to believe things for which there is no evidence.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
evidences are mostly documents found from SAWAK at revolution some:
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Talk/talk.religion.bahai/2009-06/msg00248.html
http://www.ir-psri.com/pic/Documents/Document209_1.jpg
http://www.ir-psri.com/pic/Documents/Document158_1.jpg
http://www.ir-psri.com/pic/Documents/Document155_1.jpg
http://tehranpic.net/images/z8ktbdyt9slqhqqeu5id.jpg
http://www.ir-psri.com/pic/Documents/Document217_1.jpg
http://www.ir-psri.com/pic/Documents/Document117_1.jpg
"Did Hoveida have a Bahai marriage?"
his father was a Baha'i 100% no doubt. but himself hided his religion. some times said I am Muslim. some times said I have no religion. but documents show he had secret relations with Baha'i communities.
"Did he raise his children as Bahais?"
I do not know. but he hided his religion.
" Was he ever elected to serve on a Bahai Assembly (elected councils that run the affairs of local Bahai communities)? Did he ever go on Bahai pilgrimmage? Did he write anything in favour of the Bahais?"
please refer to documents of SAWAK.
although Baha'i people always reject the documents of SAWAK found at revolution.
Baha'i and Freemasonry both have source and support from Israel. I do not believe that rule and I consider it a fake rule for making propaganda in favor of Baha'i politicians.
"Hovedia repeatedly denied being a Bahai"
yes because they had secret plans to get power in Iran and Shah and Muslims should not know it.
sha b
Thanks for being rational, I know it takes a lot to stay calm around here.
Sen McGlinn
- Bahai being "made in Israel." !! Bahai Faith was founded 1844 AD (in Iran); Israel was founded 1948 AD, 104 years later.
- Or "Baha'i people do pray into Israel." --- but Mr. Ahmadi prays towards Saudi Arabia (Mecca), so does that make him a Wahhabi spy?
- or:(his response to my saiying "Bahais are the largest religious minority."
: "really? I did not know this. why they all are not arrested?"
As if being a religious minority is criminal. The police are very lax if some have not been arrested yet!
I know that most Iranians are not like this, but there are enough people like Mr Ahmadi to make it very difficult for Iran to become a modern country, with one law for all and human rights and civil rights. I think if one day, God willing, a government tried to make equal rights for all Iranians (women too ! ), without any discrimination, these people would try to organise a coup to stop it.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes agree. but today bahaism is far diffrent of 1844 AD. today Bahaism is many changed and managed by Universal House of Justice.
http://www.thebahaitruth.com/uhj01.html
also israel can not start a faith in other country?
"- Or "Baha'i people do pray into Israel." --- but Mr. Ahmadi prays towards Saudi Arabia (Mecca), so does that make him a Wahhabi spy? "
Muslims pray to direction of Mekka because God ordered in Koran.
Bahai people pray to direction of what?
Mr. Baha-ollah was prophet or final savior imam or God?
http://www.thebahaitruth.com/art03.html
"I know that most Iranians are not like this, but there are enough people like Mr Ahmadi to make it very difficult for Iran to become a modern country,"
agree. but if modern is equal to Bahaism.
"equal rights for all Iranians (women too ! )"
yes Bahaism absorb women by this beautiful slogan.
what is equal rights?
"without any discrimination"
what is your define of discrimination?
Sen McGlinn
"Dear Sen
I am confused about your nationality, and please respond to SR's questions directly"
I am a New Zealander, living in the Netherlands, and I studied Islamic studies and Persian. So I'm a bit of everything.
The only question SR has asked directly is about Bahais marrying their sisters. Even to ask the question is the grossest of insults. For instance, supposed someone asked a Bublionian whether Bublonians (a fictional religion) are allowed to marry pigs, and where is the proof they are not allowed? Of course there would be no point in replying. The question is only asked to insult, and it is asking for proof of a negative, which is impossible to provide. There is no proof that Bublionians are forbidden from marrying pigs, because such an outrageous idea has never arisen in all of Bublionian history. Can you prove that there are no 3-headed roosters? Can you prove that water never flows uphill? To prove a negative, you would have to have perfect knowledge.
The way to deal with these questions is to turn them around, to make a question for which a positive answer is possible. So you ask, is there actual evidence of a 3-headed rooster? Is there actual evidence of water flowing uphill? Is there actual evidence that Bahais are allowed to marry their sisters, or that they do marry their sisters? Of course there is not, and it is not rational to believe something for which there is no evidence.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
the Baha'i faith does not have any instruction for marriage?
please show them instead of fiction and Imaginary and general replies.
Sen McGlinn
“distance is nearer than nearness.”
and also that non-blood relationships are equivalent to blood relationships, that is, your step-mother is the same as your mother, your wife's aunt is the same as your own aunt, an adopted child is the same as your own child.
You can read about this on my blog at
http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/religious-law-and-house-of-justice/
and in the Persian original at
http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/ab/G-L/I/inba59/59IBA275.gif
(last item on the page).
I am sure that no Bahai Assembly has ever given a ruling on whether a man can marry his sister. The question is too absurd to ever arise. That you keep asking this, shows how prejudiced you are.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
where is House of Justice?
but you said "Bahai Faith was founded 1844 AD (in Iran)"
if it is in Israel so why an organization in Israel makes law for bahai people?
“distance is nearer than nearness.”
oh beautiful!. this is marriage law?!
"non-blood relationships are equivalent to blood relationships"
sorry. I did not understand (my language is not En.) please explain this.
"I am sure that no Bahai Assembly has ever given a ruling on whether a man can marry his sister. "
I want to know it is banned or allowed. I have references saying it is allowed and I am looking for a valid reference from Bahaism to show you.
also please reply my question:
Mr. Baha-ollah is prophet or final savior of world (Imam) or God or a simple man?
also does Bahai faith consider Koran true or not? specially:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/33:40 (final prophet)
sha b
You know what *is* fictional and imaginary? All those crimes you just know all Baha's are "about to" commit,( which they never had but ironically had been punished for it.)
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"You know what *is* fictional and imaginary?"
yes. also I have this question from you.
are you sure about what you say?
what is your idea about SAVAK documents about Bahai and its try to get power and government in Iran at time of Shah?
I have a simple question.
you know many non Islam religions like 300,000 Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iran) and many Jew and many other religions like Zoroastrianism are living in Iran in peace.
only few cults like Bahai have problems in Iran.
if it is only for their religion and beliefs so other minorities are not like Bahai's in Iran?
you know religious minorities have many representative in Iran parliament.
what is different between Bahai people and Christian or Jew or Zoroastrian people in Iran?
do you think it has root only root in religion or politics and spying (not ALL of them) and connections to Israel?
Comment deleted
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Jason Kather 10+
Thank you, Sen McGlinn, for the truth you have brought to this conversation. I hope your people may soon receive the equal rights that they deserve in Iran.
Sen McGlinn
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
can you say what impolite I had about Baha'i faith?
I said from their own books and I showed even a reference from religious books of them.
Debra Smith 200+
The conversation has devolved from a place where we could learn about the glorious beauty and good parts of Iran to a dark place of justifying prejudice.
Jason - You would have every 'thumb up' I have but your comments have impressed me this week and I am out of them for you. So KUDOS for courage and clarity!
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Sen McGlinn
In Iran, anti-bahaism is a state-supported ideology. It is propagated from the top by institutes such as the Political Studies and Research Institute, and the Institute for Iranian Contemporary Historical Studies, and by intellectuals such as Abdullah Shahbazi, and at the lower levels there are Islamic Education institutions that give anti-Bahai courses and hold symposia and exhibitions in the major cities, and then a third tier in small cities and villages, which host things like anti-bahai evening classes for workers. Parallel to this there are anti-bahai courses taught at Qom, and teachers from there go to other centres. And there are "free lance" anti-bahai activities run by the Hojatiyyeh society.
Here are some examples: an anti-Bahai (anti-sunni, anti-sufi) course in a regional town
http://www.iranpresswatch.org/post/4567
the anti-Bahai section at the Tehran book fair:
http://www.iranpresswatch.org/post/2661
(note the uniform of the anti-bahaists)
The article on anti-Bahaism in the Encyclopaedia Iranica:
http://www.iranica.com/articles/bahaism-vii
which says "no convincing evidence has ever been presented for Bahai involvement with British, Israeli, or American intelligence or with SAVAK (the state security agency): the real reasons for Bahai unpopularity must be sought on deeper social and psychological levels."
(this includes a bibliography of anti-bahai literature)
And an article by a Bahai historian on the same topic:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17569065/F-Kazemzadeh-On-Allegations-of-Origin-and-Relations
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"Anything that's negative towards anyone should be fight against."
is it possible? for example a thief is against the judge in the court. this makes world full of war and no rule will exist.
"Anything that's negative towards anyone should be fight against.They teach people to be anti-sunni as well? scarrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyy"
this is not true. please ask him show evidence and please know Wahhabism is not equal to sunny. Wahabbism is enemy of Shia and wants to kill all Shia. like is doing now in Bahrain. Bahrain people are mostly Shia.
the distance of lie and truth is only four finger.
Bahaism is supported by Israel to destroy true Islam and change it to "light Islam". and it is not amazing have such propaganda among Muslims to make Muslims enemy of e
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"we must respect his beliefs"
if some one belief you are liar what you do?
Dear sen,
"Racism is a belief - it is a wicked belief, that destroys societies and harms individuals, and has no basis in fact"
so what is your idea about Zionism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_3379
who you mean by racism? by evidence? Baha'i faith is race?
what is your define of Antisemitism?
I not respect Bahaism because itsconflicts with Islam.
I agree many organizations in Iran are anti-bahai because its conflicts to Islam and hidden tries to destroy Islam and get power in Iran by support of Israel.
"or with SAVAK"
did you see the photo if SAVAK documents?
any article in internet is true?
Baha'ism has two different face. in public and in Inter net it is different of hidden meetings and internal real rules. for example I have read an article from an Iranian bahai that he said: we all are forced to advertise Bahaism and he said why all Bahai people should be forced to advertise in Iran and why not only some special people for advertise in Iran like other religions?
also:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm
"These include mandatory prepublication censorship of everything Baha'is publish about their religion, administrative expulsion, blackballing, shunning and threats of shunning. What are the ideological bases of these control mechanisms? How is power attained and managed in a lay community without a clergy?"
"anti-sunni, anti-sufi"
agree about anti-sufi. but note sunni is many branches and Iran is anti to mainly Wahhabism. not all. sunni people are not the same and are diffrent from branch to branch. Iran has Good relations (even love) with sunni people of Iraq, Egypt and many other sunni countries.
Sen McGlinn
RAHANA, June 16
A Bahai child in Shiraz was physically abused by her teacher because she refused to participate in the congregational obligatory prayer (a Muslim practice, not to be practiced by members of other religions). Anahita Zahra'i ( آناهیتا زهرائی ) is a beginning pupil at a state primary school in Shiraz. She was physically abused by her own teacher, first striking her hand hard, then putting a spoon on the heating stove and pressing it into her hand. When her mother protested, the teacher, in the presence of the school director and other teachers, said he was proud of what he had done. Mr. Zahra'i has taken legal steps and has also obtained a certificate from a government-appointed doctor confirming the injuries. As a result, the teacher has been censured.
http://www.rahana.org/archives/41433 (in Persian)
Short link: http://wp.me/pNMoJ-Qn
This is a fruit of the consistent stream of hate-speech against Iranian Bahais, in state media and from the pulpit.
For examples of the images and accusations used against the Bahais in the Iranian media see
http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/quirky/
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Sen McGlinn
http://www.soundofbahai.com/
but most of the presentations are in Persian. However Kamran Eqbal's talk on Abdu'l-Baha and Jewish Immigration to Palestine is in English, so are the talks by Farzaneh Milani, Homa Katouzian, Reza Afshari, Nazila Ghanea (Baha'is and the Development of Human Rights in Iran), and a few others.
Certainly I do not blame Islam for the teacher's act! Bahais believe in Muhammad as the Messenger of God, and use the Quran alongside their own scripture as a holy text. And I took courses in Islamic studies at university, so I know better.
The actions of that teacher are simply an example of of the effects on the minds of many Iranian people of constant anti-bahai propaganda, which the Bahais cannot contradict because the censorship prevents them from speaking in public media. So they get a one-sided view, and start to think that Bahais are some sort of monsters, or moral degenerates, or spies for Israel, or the like. This behaviour has nothing to do with Islam: it is the fruit of an authoritarian government which uses the old technique of find internal enemies to make its citizens anxious, so that it can strengthen its grip on them by "protecting" them from the imagined threat. Authoritarian governments all over the world do this, and most of these governments are not religious at all - they do it in the name of nationalism, or at one time communism, or in the name of the Dear Leader, etc..
This example, of a teacher abusing a Bahai child, was not unusual: I was writing on June 17, and simply went to the Human Rights site RAHANA to see what persecution of the Bahais had happened that day.
You can get a picture of the constant violation of the human rights of religious minorities in Iran from:
http://www.rahana.org/en/?cat=15
and for those who can read Persian:
http://www.hranews.info/263/a23.html
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"A taste of Iran - with a hot spoon"
I hate such crazy teachers.
no one will accept any religion with pressure and punish. I was many years in Iran schools and I was not forced for religious programs. and also I usually did not participate them. I was not religious until before university.
this crazy and evil behavior is hated in Islam and I do not know any rule in Iran for that.
what you mean by showing such case of crazy teacher. such cases exist in every country?
you mean Islam says this? or Iran rules says this?
what is your argument?
do you want I find such case of crazy people in bahai people or in your country and press you by that? this is not rational argument.
please show your rational arguments.
Sen McGlinn
The stuff about Bahais being agents of Israel is just propaganda.
There is no Bahai community as such in Israel, but there are Bahai holy sites there, and there are Bahai staff who live in Israel while they work at the holy places, but when they finish their work there, they are asked (by the Bahais, not by Israel) to leave. There used to be a Bahai community in Palestine, but it was dissolved about the time Israel was formed, and the Bahais were asked to move elsewhere, or in the case of the Bahais living on the East Bank, they became citizens of Jordan.
However there are quite a few people of Jewish background who are Bahais, in Iran and around the world. The Bahais are not anti-semitic, they just have a rule that Bahais should not live in Israel, and another rule that Bahais should not "teach the Faith" (do da'wa) in the territory around the Bahai holy places in the Holy Land. That second rule applies to all the inhabitants - Palestinians, Druze, Israeli, Christian, Jewish, and even to visitors from other countries who happen to be in the area around the holy places. So again, it is not an anti-semitic policy, it has to do with special rules that apply around very special places.
The rest of the stuff that SR Ahmadi has repeated is also propaganda, but I guess that's already pretty clear to most people. Whenever propagandists in Iran don't like a community, they accuse them of incest. The same charge was levelled against Mazdakites, Ismaelis, Qarmatiyans and Zoroastrians
(see http://www.cesnur.org/2009/slc_maneck.htm and the links there). The answer to such charges is simple: ask those saying such things to show you one example of any Bahai anywhere marrying his mother, sister, daughter etc...
There's the Lord of Truth, and the lord of lies, and you know which of these a person serves, by how he behaves
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Sen McGlinn
http://news.bahai.org/story/494
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"Whenever propagandists in Iran don't like a community, they accuse them of incest. "
can you explain why Persian Jews are free in Iran?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
please note no one is accused for his religion in Iran.
any accuse is for political activities against government and Islam and Islamic revolution. independent of religion of person.
can you show a case accused only for religion?
also please note what I said is not about any individual Baha'i.
but many of anti-Islamic revolutions activities in Iran has been from Baha'i also from other religions even Islam and even Shia Islam.
please distinguish religion of some one and doing activities against rules of a country known as crime in a country. I think every country has such rules for people independent of religion of individual.
please do not relate who are accused to their religion without any notice to their anti rules of country activities.
"ask those saying such things to show you one example of any Bahai anywhere marrying his mother, sister, daughter etc..."
I do not know such case. but this is banned in Islam.
can you clarify it is banned or allowed in Baha'i faith?
please do not misquote me.
I said only about daughter and sister.
marriage with mother is banned in Baha'i faith.
also I did not said they marriage with their daughter and sister.
I said marriage with daughter and sister is allowed in Baha'i faith.
not need to such marriage happen officially. it can happen in private.
if some one have special look at his daughter or sister it is enough to a human be in control of Saran and forget God and become ready for doing many evil deeds.
when the negative value an evil deed is removed from mind it will have many effects in life and decisions and think
Comment deleted
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I am not speaking about some happenings in a society. I am speaking about beliefs of a [made in Israel] religion.
"but to claim it is a common practice in any one religion is completely wrong."
I say according to my references which are some books about Bahai.
"or are you just repeating what you have been 'programmed' with?"
are you sure Bahai faith has not such beliefs?
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
In the constitution of I.R.Iran, only Ebrahimi religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) plus Zarathustrian are recognised. All other religions including atheists or people with no religion are not officially recognised in Iran and have no rights as human. Unless you are member of on of the above religions, you can not go to university and can not work at government jobs.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
religions not made by God have limitations in Iran.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
sha b
I am confused about your nationality, and please respond to SR's questions directly,(You are the only one here who has an inside view about Bahai) and patiently. (I know beforehand that it would be a miracle to make him even rethink his prejudice to people of your fate...Believe me,*I know*), But at least one can say I tried *my best* in the end.
edit:Hi Naim, no idea why I posted it here, I blame the confusing responding system around here.
Sen McGlinn
You have shown your prejudice against Bahais. Now you wish to put the onus on the victims of your prejudice, to defend themselves. I am supposed to prove to you, that Bahais do not marry their sisters? This is not fair. Your prejudices are your problem, not mine.
If someone told you that red-headed people marry their sisters, would you believe that, and then ask red-headed people to prove they do not?
Your mind is your own, it is your responsibility. if you want to clean it up, the mind has its own cleaner: pure reason.
You say yourself that you do not yourself know of any actual example of Bahai incest, and that you live in Iran - where Bahais are the largest religious minority. So the chances are, quite a few of your relatives and acquaintances are Bahais. But you don’t know of any single example of Bahai incest. And the government media who claim daily that Bahais marry their sisters etc. – have they ever produced even one example? Don’t you think they would produce an example, if there was one? These are questions you could ask yourself, if you wish to reason to clean up your mind. The Bahais live all over the world, they are respected in every free country: how is it that it is only in Iran that we have these stories about Bahai incest? Incest causes congenital birth defects, so if the Bahais of Iran have been marrying their sisters for the last 160 or so years, you would be able to tell a Bahai at a glance, yet in fact. they look just like other Iranians. What does that tell you? These are questions you could ask yourself, if you wish to reason to clean up your mind.
(to be continued)
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"You have shown your prejudice against Bahais."
I say according to some books about Bahai faith. I asked you a simple question and you did not reply:
MARRIAGE WITH SISTER AND DAUGHTER IN BAHA'I FAITH IS ALLOWED OR BANNED? (regardless of such case exist or not). and please show valid religious references.
I never said bahai people marry theirs sisters. please do not misquote me. I said this is the belief. I do not know such cases exist or not.
bahai people are very secret people and keep their beliefs hidden from people.
"where Bahais are the largest religious minority."
really? I did not know this. why they all are not arrested? you show some cases of arrest by police and do not say what was the real reason of arrest. I think the real reason is beyond religion. for example spying or else.
"But you don’t know of any single example of Bahai incest. "
this is why I have not close relation with any bahai.
"And the government media who claim daily that Bahais marry their sisters etc."
really? I have not heard such thing from Iran government media yet. I not watch TV. I say according to books.
for me example is not important. beliefs of a faith is important.
again:
MARRIAGE WITH SISTER AND DAUGHTER IN BAHA'I FAITH IS ALLOWED OR BANNED?
sha b
"again:
MARRIAGE WITH SISTER AND DAUGHTER IN BAHA'I FAITH IS ALLOWED OR BANNED?"
Sorry can I cut in? I know near nothing about Bahai fate, Only some people I knew were Bahais, and unlike people of some other religion I know they weren't trying to convert other people into their religion all the time, But to answer to your question: The force that keeps all the people of the universe from doing wrong isn't the fear from their religion's hell, We humans have brains,a sense of humanity, and logic. Which we can put in good use some times.
This might come as a shock to you, cause you have been thought to think otherwise: NON -MUSLIMS HAVE MURAL CODES TOO.
Sen McGlinn
Yes, I can show numerous cases of Bahais persecuted, imprisoned and killed in Iran because of their religion. Also of Christians, dervishes (Sufis) and Sunnis who suffer persecution in Iran, simply for their religious beliefs. I run a blog of Bahai news, so I read the Persian-language media every day, and translate brief headlines there, with links to the Persian sources. It may be blocked from Iran, but our other readers can see my blog here:
http://sensday.wordpress.com/
Here’s one recent example:
==
On the evening of June 4, security forces of the city of Babol searched the home of Peijman Nikoonejad and his wife Sharareh Kashaninejad. The security officers pretended to be utilities workers. When Peijman Nikoonejad went down to open the door for them, about 10 security and police officers entered the couple's home and began a search and insulted those present. One of the officers was the interrogator for the Ministry of Intelligence in Mazandaran province. Since it was the evening of the Feast of Nur, in the Bahai religious calendar, a number of Bahais from Babol had gathered there. The officers beat and abused one of those present, and forced the others to sign a promise that they would not again attend illegal Bahai events. One of the officers asked a guest "are you a Bahai?" "Yes" he replied. "Then you are not even entitled to draw breath," replied the officer, and slapped the guest. The intruders seized books and pictures relating to the Bahai Faith, a satellite receiver and some household effects, and arrested Peijman Nikoonejad and Sharareh Kashaninejad. Their whereabouts are unknown.
Translated from http://khabarnavard.blogspot.com/2011/06/blog-post_06.html"
Short link: http://wp.me/pNMoJ-Pd
===
That’s typical of government persecution of Bahais. It is usually ...
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
are you sure those cases were ONLY for religion and they had no legal problem?
I think the news you show does not mention all facts. specially it is from a blog that is clear is for bahai people. I mean there is no mention to the legal reason of police in this link. many bahai are in Iran why all not arrested? as I know such arrest is for connections to Israel and also it has been a group meeting. not only a couple in a home. when polices takes PC it shows there is a security or spy problem or suspect.
Sen McGlinn
That’s typical of government persecution of Bahais. It is usually coordinated by the Ministry of Intelligence, although sometimes it is city authorities, and sometimes police accompany the intelligence agents; they seize religious books and pictures as evidence of illegal religious beliefs, and they cart the Bahais off to prison: they typically get sentences of 6 months to 5 years for "teaching the Bahai Faith" or "actions contrary to security."
There are also vigilante attacks on the Bahais, initiated by the anti-Bahai society or by other shadowy groups, or sometimes by senior clerics. A recent example is the arson attacks on Bahai homes and small shops in Rafsanjan. Bahais are banned from the armed forces, public service, the food industry, child care, teaching, sensitive industries, employment in large companies, and are barred from universities, which means they cannot get qualifications for any higher professions, so they tend to be either day-labourers or they run little shops selling or repairing things like furniture, stationary, glasses, mobile phones. That explains why so many of the vigilante attacks are on Bahai shops. You can read about the Rafsanjan attacks, and see a copy of the threatening letter sent to 20 Bahai families there, on my blog at:
http://wp.me/pNMoJ-uA
In brief (in case my blog is blocked to you), the report begins:
==
There has been another arson attack against a Bahai-owned business in Rafsanjan, the ninth in a series (although one attack struck a non-Bahai business called “Coffee Shop 19,” mistakenly identified as a Bahai business in a newsletter published by the Mahdi Ma`ud Cultural Foundation). The attack took place on December 30 [2010]. This time, the attack was accompanied by an unsigned 'protection racket' letter, headed "A warning and conditions," which was left in the shop. The letter, directed at the Bahais of Rafsanjan, threatened to "pull out the roots of colonialism in this city."
===
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
please note US and israel have such rules for Iranians.
do you think an Iranian can have a key political position in US or Israel?
I agree Muslims have negative Image about Bahai's and mainly is for beliefs of Bahais specially beliefs in contradiction with Islam beliefs.
can you show a valid refrence for bahai beliefs?
as I know it is banned in Bahai that non bahai people know believes of Bahai. right?
Sen McGlinn
A third type of persecution - the most dangerous - is when it is instigated by senior religious leaders. (Anti-Bahaism in Iran parallels anti-semitism in medieval Europe, even using the same blood-libel story as was told about the Jews - see http://wp.me/pNMoJ-bu ) In the past, clerical incitement has led to pogroms where the Muslims of a town or village are stirred up to attack the Bahais, and dozens or hundreds are killed. This has not happened since the 1979 revolution – Bahais have been executed by the government quite often, or murdered individually, but I don’t know of any large pogroms. But in one recent case, fifty houses belonging to Bahais in a rural village were seized and demolished, apparently by local farmers who had been promised by clerics that they could get the agricultural land belonging to the Bahais. The Bahais had moved out of the houses after the revolution because of persecution, but they would come back to the village and plant and harvest. Anyway, the Bahai homes were destroyed, then the clerics did the dirty on the villagers, and seized the land for themselves! The senior clerics in this case were Ahmad Jannati, chairman of Iran’s Guardian Council, and Ayatollah Sadeq Larijani, and after confiscating the land they presented it as a gift to Ayatollah Khamanei, who got 30,000 hectares of stolen property. The village is called Ivel. You can read about it with photos and links here:
http://news.bahai.org/story/782
There are videos of the destruction, and a copy of the letter written by the villagers to protest that the land was promised to them, if you follow the links to Persian sources.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
please write some of same destroys of Bahai to Islam and Muslims before revolution.
did you know Howeida ( prime minister before revolution) was a Bahai and what crimes did to Islam and Muslims before revolution. even documents of US embassy shows they had plan to get power in Iran and were doing many hidden plans against Shah. the main plan of Bahai was destroying Islam in Iran. (please note I do not every individual Bahai, I means plans by support of US and England embassy in Iran)
Sen McGlinn
One of the things Bahais are accused of is being anti-Islam. But Bahais believe Muhammad was a Prophet, and the Quran is a holy book. How could anyone be both against a religion, and believe in it, at the same time? This is the sort of question you could ask yourself, if you want to use reason and critical thinking to spring-clean your mind and detect all the lies planted there by state and religious propaganda.
And another lie told about the Bahais is that they are Israeli spies and agents. No doubt Mossad has its agents in Iran - but they will be working in universities, in the armed forces, in key industries and government ministries, where they can gather useful information. They will be pretending to be Shiah Muslims so they are not bothered by the intelligence ministry. Why would the Israelis choose as spies, a people who are banned from all the places where intelligence could be gathered, and who are subject to continuous close surveillance and random searches of their houses and businesses, by the Ministry of Intelligence?
Not a single real case of a Bahai spy has been presented by the state media: don’t you think they would publicise it, if any case existed? And even if one Bahai was an agent of Israel, how would that justify the collective punishment of an entire community? Why must Bahai children suffer?
Another lie told about the Bahais in Iran is that they get financial support from Israel, and another is that they are all rich and send financial support to Israel. Lies, and not too clever either!
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
agree. but as I know Bahai faith believes mr. baha was prophet of God and from the time mr. baha announced new religion of Baha'i the Islam is an expired religion and Muhammad (PBUH) is no longer the prophet that should be followed. this is what makes Muslims angry. Bahai accept he was prophet and Islam was true religion only until mr. baha. and after that Islam is expired. please correct me if I am wrong.
Koran clearly says Muhammad (PBUH) is final prophet of God:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/33:40
(Muhammad (PBUH) had no son and is final prophet of God"
so who is mr. baha? a prophet? so what says Koran? Koran is liar or mr. Baha is liar? or mr. baha did not claim is prophet. as I know [not sure] mr. baha even claimed he is God. (the book of tesa days. no. 25)
How could anyone be both against a religion, and believe in it, at the same time?
"And another lie told about the Bahais is that they are Israeli spies and agents."
not all. but some.
"Why would the Israelis choose as spies, a people who are banned from all the places where intelligence could be gathered"
do you think spies are stupid people. even a simple sitizen can send information and also a spy has enough tolls to make fake ID cards. a fake birth certificate can be bought in Iran with a cheap price of near 50$. the spies know their job.
"Not a single real case of a Bahai spy has been presented by the state media:"
sure? what if I showed you?
also what about Howeida?
"collective punishment of an entire community?"
not all of them are arrested. but all bahais have some legal limitations like Iranians in US and Israel.
"Another lie told about the Bahais in Iran is that they get financial support from Israel, '
are you sure this is lie?
"and another is that they are all rich and send financial support to Israel."
I not heard this until know. Israel receives enough support from US.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
by Mike Wall, SPACE.com Senior Writer
Date: 15 June 2011 Time: 06:46 PM ET
http://www.space.com/11982-iran-launches-observation-satellite-rasad.html
make yourself ready for taking photos. :)
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
http://www.ibna.ir/prtciiqp.2bqss8y-a2.html
Comment deleted
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
please note there are no child soldier in Iran.
in Iran-Iraq war only people up than age 18 were allowed to God war.
but most of people loved Khomeini and wanted to go war because of Khomeini and Allah and protect their land.
so many young under 18 changed their birth certificate and went to war without permit of their parents.
the all went VOLUNTARY.
I hope you can show only one evidence that under 18 soldiers were forced.
they Loved to war because of Khomeini and no one could stop them going to war.
unless Iran-Iraq war no under 18 soldier exists or existed in Iran Islamic revolution.
J Ali
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
Sorry mate but that is the exact case of child abuse. Children are very vulnerable and highly responsive to propaganda.
It is a shame that so many children were used in Iran-Iraq war. My uncle was one of those kids, but he deeply hates the Islamic Republic today.
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/13/iran-child-soldiers-tehran-protests
Want live evidence? Go to streets on next protest.
Comment deleted
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"A simple explanation of the difference between Islam and Muslim? "
Islam(literally=submission[to Allah]) =the religion of Allah sent to human by prophets (like Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (PBUT) which is some instructions and suggestions for life. and is said in Koran and sayings of prophet and Imams (true successors of prophet).
Muslim (literally=who testify 2 thing: 1- there is not God but Allah. 2- Muhammad is messenger of Allah)= some kind of human= a mixture of:
some Islam+local culture+country culture+ethnic culture+personal interests+greed+evil morals+evil behaviors+some Satan+love of money+love of power+love of food+love of sex+(many other optional components)
so if you see a Muslim with evil behaviors you should not quickly conclude Islam is evil.
Islam is an Ideology
Muslim is some kind of Human
Muslim is the doer name of Islam.
like worker and work.
"How could anyone believe a 13 yo child was 18 yo? Why would any one allow a child to volunteer for war?'
no one believed but no one could stop him.
also he was the youngest one and was the record in age.
not all were 13
also in war they were protected and not allowed to go in front of war and near danger. usually they did simple works helping at back of war field.
Amily shaw 10+
I am not having hard time believing you . I was just asking a question to be more clear :-D and thanks again for trying to let me see more.You , Naiem and SR have a good day!
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
you are welcome.
thank.
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
Iran is a DIVERSE and great country with great food and great everything (not so much its political system but will change sooner or later). Book a tour and check it for yourself :).
And if you don't wanna pay for hotel go to Mr. Ahmadi's house. I believe he wouldn't charge you ;))
Jim Moonan 30+
Tim, I just watched the "Witness" video. It is beautifully done, and reveals everything Debra points out - even more for me, since I don't have a deep understanding of the history and culture of Iran.I really appreciate your dedication to seeking the truth…. And I’m so often enlightened by it.
I was struck by the undercurrent of desperation in the psyche of the Iranian family. Desperation about the loss of loved ones, about the indignities and atrocities of the Iraq-Iran war, about their burdens of day-to-day life, about the way american governments have treated them, about their worries that the youth are being tricked into betraying their own country, even a hint of self-doubt about what they themselves believe (but just a hint). I think they are desperate for - want more than they reveal - for Americans (everyone really) to understand them and accept them.
I also think we often mistake tradition for culture. I think the correct distinction between the two is crucial for societies like Iran. I see culture as being something that is a dynamic, living, breathing thing that changes/evolves over time and tradition as being something of a “photograph” in time. What do you think? Cultures evolve; traditions are stagnant. But when culture stagnate and traditions play too much of a role in day to day living, things get out of balance.
I've made some comments in other discussions that in hindsight were uninformed. Live and learn....
Debra Smith 200+
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Imam has two different meaning:
1- the true successor of prophet. Imam is selected by God and prophet announce it to people.
Koran said 5 sign for his representative in Koran. if Koran said direct name it could be easily changed by emperors. for example:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:30 (who is the successor after prophet?)
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/16:43 (who are "people of message"? does God refer to who do not know the answer? an Imam never says I do not know to any question)
this means God always has at least one successor (خليقه) in earth. and this is selected by God (اني جاعل) also according to Arabic grammar جاعل means for always.
and prophet did his important job before death:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_Muhammad
please read this carefully:
http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir
Imam is the true representative of God in earth.
those Imams are only 14:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahl_al-Bayt
also all prophet are Imam at the same time because prophets are also representatives of God in earth. Imam is same as prophet and has all knowledge and all abilities and all miracles of prophet only one difference:
God communicate to a prophet by revelation and do not communicate to an Imam by revelation but communicate in other ways like dream of sleep.
2- generally Imam means leader. but this is different of specific meaning of Imam. by word Imam means who is in front of people. Imam=in front
Imam Khomeini is said Imam only because he was a religious leader.
people loved him because he was a real Muslim and did not fear Shah and his power and SAWAK (intelligent service of Iran before revolution)
please note near one million Iranian went to iran-iraq war voluntary and was killed because the saying Imam Khomeini.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhollah_Khomeini
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Is that true S.R? How does the Iranians respond to that?
" Non-Muslim religious minorities no longer had equal rights"
I thought Islam forbids this (according to Sunni teachings).How is it possible for the Imam to do such things?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
but totally I think mostly and major population of Iran have an average welfare and a relatively not bad income. (please note this not mean Iran has no poor).
I mean the life of most of Iranians is not so bad. but not well. also there are some special people having special relations with some economic parts of government specially Oil sector and have good income according to their relations. such kinds of corruptions exist in government of Iran but usually enemies of Iran make it much bigger than what it is in real. for example such corruption in Iran government is much lower than Arab countries.
"Is that true S.R? How does the Iranians respond to that?"
there is a good culture in Iran that people help to poor people.
I wrote in this topic about Khomeini Relief Foundation (IKRF) please read it.
also there is some good actions against corruption in government but still there is many problems in government like blackmail.
"" Non-Muslim religious minorities no longer had equal rights"
what you mean? please explain.
"I thought Islam forbids this (according to Sunni teachings)."
forbid what?
"How is it possible for the Imam to do such things?"
do what?
imam has all abilities of a prophet unless revelation.
please read this book:
do you think it is from any human?
http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/
it is a collection of sayings of Imam Ali (PBUH)
prophet said:
الحق مع العلي و العلي مهع الحق
truth is with Ali and Ali is with truth.
also do you know what is صراط المستقيم (straight path) in this verse?
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/1:6
Ali (PBUH) said:
I am the "straight path"
do know any other claiming is straight path?
also do you know what is the Serat Bridge? (پل صراط)?
you know any human before entering Heaven should pass that bridge.
that Bridge is Ali (PBUH)
Debra Smith 200+
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
1)" Non-Muslim religious minorities no longer had equal rights".When Imam Khomenei becomes the leader of Iran, the non-muslims were not treated well like the muslims.The muslims were treated better than the non-muslims.The muslims has rights which the non muslims don't.The non-muslims were treated unfairly.
From what I was taught, Allah said that we must treat non-muslims and muslims equally.Remember the story of our prophet Ibrahim's encounter with a man of Zoroastrianism faith? I know that any Imam is aware of that story.So, how can Imam Khomenei treat the non-muslims differently with the muslims.I thought it was wrong to treat the non-muslims differently with the muslims.I don't know how you were taught in Shiah about treatment to non-muslims.I was taught the Sunni way.Thats why I refer to you for answers.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
never worry and talk freely. and say anything you want.
"When Imam Khomenei becomes the leader of Iran, the non-muslims were not treated well like the Muslims."
I disagree this. can you show some evidences?
for example please look this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
Jews and Christians are freely living in Iran.
religious minorities in Iran even have parliament member for themselves.
Christians have their own churches, schools and so on.
"The muslims has rights which the non Muslims don't."
for example?
as I know and see Iranians have same rights.
only Kurdistan is a special political (not religious) case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan
please look at its page.
Iranian Kurd people are mostly sunny and are respected as sunny Muslims. but some times Kurd of Iran/Turkey/Iraq say some things about making an independent country and this makes some conflicts with governments of Iran/Turkey/Iraq.
"From what I was taught, Allah said that we must treat non-muslims and Muslims equally."
yes. agree.
but not always. for example some non-Muslims want to kill you and your family and start war on you what you do?
"how can Imam Khomenei treat the non-muslims differently with the Muslims."
sorry, but I completely disagree this.
Khomeini has many sayings in insist that all religious minorities are free in Iran in their religions. if you want I can find some English sources about them.
please show some evidences. perhaps I understand your meaning better.
in Shia we are taught to respect and have rational and peaceful and respectful talk to non-Muslims.
Iran is not seeking war and only had one war that was Imposed to Iran and it was defend.
I wish you have some study about Imam Khomeini:
http://www.imam-khomeini.com/
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
Unfortunately in our constitution, there are three classes of citizens. Muslim men, muslim women, and followers of other religions.
Some examples of inequalities under law in Iran:
Baha'is are not allowed to go to unversity.
http://www.iranpresswatch.org/post/789
Women can not become judges. Two woman's witness is equal to one man in court.
Father can kill his daughter and will not be condemned for murder!!!
http://iranhr.net/spip.php?article352
Women can not become president.
Non-muslims can not become president.
People who turn from Islam to other religions (or become Atheist) may be executed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/3179465/Hanged-for-being-a-Christian-in-Iran.html
http://www.iranpresswatch.org/post/2074
Above are the inequalities only by law. Real inequalities are much much deeper.
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
Lets say we are all brothers, Muslim and non-muslim doesn't matter.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
"Unlike the other non-Muslims in Iran, the 300,000 members of the Bahá'í Faith, were actively harassed."
why is that so?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
OK. Khomeini said all religions should be free i Iran. but do you consider Bahá'í Faith a religion?
how much you know Bahá'í Faith?
they are like wolf in the cloth of sheep.
they are spy of Israel in Iran.
Bahá'í Faith is human made. not God made.
Bahá'í Faith is a fake religion made by Imperialism and supported by Israel for destroying Islam.
Bahá'í Faith always sent secret information of Iran to Israel.
they had political activities against Iran revolution to destroy it.
they had many insults to Muslim leaders and Islamic schools.
their positions always has been same as positions of US and Israel against Iran.
they are supported and guided by Israel against Iran revolution.
they wish fall of Iran revolution and getting power after it.
some of them (for example Howeida) by support of Israel could become prime minister before revolution and always tried to destroy Islam in Iran by using his governmental position.
information and facts and documents about Bahá'í Faith found in US embassy at revolution and other sources and their works for destroying Islam are very much and available for all if you interested.
but in short:
Bahá'í Faith was and still is a puppet of Israel inside Islam community for spying and destroying Islam.
Muslims do pray into Kaaba. Baha'i people do pray into Israel.
it is not a real religion.
religions like Christianity, Judaism, Sunny Islam, Zoroastrian and many other religions are free In Iran while they respect country rules and do not have activity for destroying revolution.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
if it was only a religion with no harm and Intentional try to destroy Islam and Iran revolution they Indeed would be safe and free like Christians and Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
most religious minorities support Iran Islamic revolution always and have rights and parliament members of their own.
"And sounds like a bit of propaganda that you are sharing? "
please do not prejudice and at least do some search about what I said or at least ask me some evidence.
its not people think many wondering facts are propaganda.
if it is propaganda so why Christians and Jews are free in Iran but they are not? if problem is was only religion so all other religions would be restricted.
also about Bahá'í Faith believes:
they consider mr. baha-din prophet of God like Jesus and Muhammad (PHUH)
by cumming Bahá'í Faith Islam is expired
year is 19 month
month is 19 day
year is 361 days
marriage with daughter and sister is allowed.
actually their activities for destroying Islam and Iran revolution with support of Israel is the main problem.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
at Iran revolution when Iranian students occupied US embassy found many documents for support of US and Israel to some special bahai governors of Iran.
if you interested you can study.
also not hearing some thing does not mean not exit.
usually a governor trying to destroy the Islam in a country does not announce his secret activities in the TV.
for example consider Mubarak and his relations to US and Israel and 2 Billion $ annual support of US to Mubarak. Mubarak blocked the Egypt/Palestine border for many years to no help reach to Palestinians. then Mubarak is a Muslim?
it is clear Mubarak was agent of Israel.
do you consider him a governor loving his people.
do you consider him a Muslim in a Muslim country of Egypt?
when revolution happens secrets reveal.
Iran had many governor like Mubarak before revolution and even after revolution.
and I am sure such cases exist in every Muslim country.
it is usual you not hear any things about such governors.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
not all of them are not agent of Israel.
but it is supported and trained by Israel financially and ideologically and at special time Israel uses this potential.
"He did not prosecute them,instead he forgave them."
yes this is true.
but please not each case differs with other case.
forgave is not working every where.
also Iran has many many cases of forgave.
also do you remember what prophet did with the Khaibar castle of Jews?
please see all aspects of prophet. not only one.
"if you treat them well, they might like you."
there is many documents of their try to destroy Islam BEFORE REVOLUTION.
Bahai has basically many conflicts with Islam even contradictions.
even with so many conflicts if they had not try for destroying Islam and revolution they would be free in Iran. now many of them are free.
only who have connection with Israel and have political activities against Islam and government and revolution are restricted.
not all of them.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Prophet Muhammad agreed this with the Jews.What is your opinion on that?
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Women are suppose to play a role in developing the country.The story of Aisha bint Abu Bakr is a great example that woman can be powerful in Islam.
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
A controversial rule like that can only become a rule if near absolute majority of Islamic experts (Maraje) agree on it.
These Islamic experts have been studying Islam for more than sum of the age of me and you + SR Ahmadi so how can we say they are right or wrong?
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
If he would come today, lets say in a western country, I think he would accept their tradition and life style.
It is a great misconception of thinking as Islam as a set of traditions, instead of religion. This view made us think that Islam is a set of rules that should be implemented and turn a society into the society of the time of Islam. Certainly such view about Islam or any other religion will lead to misery.
In the whole human history there has been no example of mixing politics and power with religion that have ever had a good outcome. The outcome has always been misery and disaster as we see in Iran today.
Mullahs, priests and everybody who calls himself representative of a religion, has the will of collecting money and power and would be advocate of theocracy.
Naive people may accept that but their will is to change their religion into a tool of populism and to absolutely abuse trust of people who don't dare to doubt in what they are told to be religion.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"He accepted most of their traditions as he did not want to change traditions."
please note prophet only accepted traditions that had not conflict with Islam.
about traditions conflicting Islam like burying daughter babies he oppose Arabs and even many opposes leaded to war by Arabs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_Muhammad
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
sha b
I don't think Iran's government represents Islam. Islam had just become a tool for them, And they are using it.
People should be able to distinguish between*naive Muslims*, deceiving Muslims and Muslims like you the moment you start talking. I am not religious, But on my part I don't think you are naive, deceiving, or anything like that just because some Muslims have wronged me.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
can you show one example?
*** distance of lie and truth is four finger *** (eye to ear)
Imam Ali (PBUH)
also about Baha'i people please distinguish between political activities of them that has conflict with rule and their religion. please do not count every arrest by police for religion before you know the real reason of arrest.
Comment deleted
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Iran has many documents for try of some of them [not all] to destroy true Islam in Iran and make a useless Islam.
what I said does not mean every individual of them is an agent of Israel. but it is clear that faith has been and is supported by Israel.
it is not needed to every individual of them be agent of Israel. even if a Muslim convert to a religion that is like Islam but in fact is not Islam this is enough for Israel.
also if a bahai has not direct connection with Israel they are potentially ready to become agent of Israel according to their believes and brainwash about Israel and Islam.
please note if Israel want to use bahai's as agent does not it at first day some one converts to Bahai.
Indeed it is a pre-planned process and takes many years to a bahai be ready for this job.
if this be so clear that all know it then no one will convert Bahai and Muslim countries will destroy it immediately.
please note if some one want to destroy a religion and make some spay in some country do this very exact and very planned and select best cases among bahai people trained before.
the most important goal of Israel is destroying true Islam and substituting it with a deviated religion and step by step destroying Islam completely.
immediate destroy of Islam is impossible and should be step by step.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
About Iran, Malaysians are sad as well to see these awful changes happening to them.We pray so that Iran will heal one day.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
sorry. can you explain what changes you mean? I do not know what you mean.
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
I didn't want to write more on this conversation due to personal time issues, but this is a great question I couldn't ignore.
Imam Khomeini was the religious leader of 1979 revolution. He was a pro-democracy pro-human rights leader before getting power and he assured everybody that he is not seeking any political power for himself.
BUT soon after getting power he turned into a bloodthirsty villain and brutal dictator. He is responsible for execution of thousands of innocents right after power for having Communist interests. Mass execution of at least 6000 political prisoners. And he is responsible for death of 1,000,000 people due to continuation of Iran-Iraq war. The war could finish in 1981, and Iran would get compensation, but he ordered to continue the war 7 more years. His only motive was securing his dictatorship because he could get rid of his internal enemy only in the shade of war.
In 1988 he ordered the mass execution of political prisoners. Such prisoners were mostly young activist including many teenage girls. Because it was believed that virgin girls will go to heaven if they die, all the virgin girls were raped before execution. Overwhelming evidence of such brutality exists. In general, killing, torture, and rape of political prisoners was a norm under his rule.
http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?collection=journals&handle=hein.journals/hhrj20&div=17&id=&page=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_executions_of_Iranian_political_prisoners
He had huge support among Iranians, mainly because he had a charismatic figure, was successful in utter control of information flow and he kept all his dirty secrets under the shade of long 8 year Iran-Iraq war.
By popularity of internet, and free flow of information, he lost his support among most enlightened and educated Iranians. He is still popular between a part of Iranian population that have no access to free information.He has a TINY support by educated Iranians yet.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
This is what people have don so far, but it takes time. The regime is still pretty successful at controlling the flow of information and cracking down the protesters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSrSQQmrGVQ
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=86CC1096A4C5B410
http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DbbdEf0QRsLM
Also, there is no rush. Democracy can not be achieved in a day. We should mature out of dictatorship culture and takes some time and we are not hoping for a bloody revolution so we prefer to achieve freedom later but in a peaceful way.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
why you consider Khomeini dictator?
is there any difference between Khomeini and Mubarak?
Khomeini killed according to Islam.
do you know about wars and killings of prophet Muhammad (PBUH)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_Muhammad
do you know how many people prophet killed?
Islam has both peace and war.
each is usable for suitable people.
some people understand logic and peace and Love and Islam is peace for them.
some does not understand logic and peace and Love and war is usable for them.
also Please note Islam is not starter of war.
prophet sent letter to countries. some had logic and replied to letter by logic (like Roman emperor) and some wrapped the letter (like Persian emperor of that time).
I think you define dictator by who kills other without notice to reason of killing.
not all killings are the same. please distinguish between different kinds of killing.
killing is better for some people than living.
for example a crazy man who kills others with no reason and also harms himself is better to be live or killed?
I think all countries have rules for execution. do you know the stat of execution in US?
so not all kind of killing is equal to dictatorship.
if you become the emperor of Iran what you will do with peoples like Khomeini?
if you kill them then you are dictator?
what is definition of dictator?
is there any difference between Khomeini and Mubarak and Saddam and Ghazzafi?
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Islamic killings? what is that? 19 years of living in Islam and I have never heard of that.
God once said : Killing a human is like killing humanity.
I don't agree with you.Islam is only peace and no war.Stop making it look as if its a barbaric religion.
If there was a murderous crazy man, he should not be killed.Therapy would be the solution.There should be no killing.No man deserves to be killed by another man.No one has the rights to take anyone's life away.That's why they created the prison.
Debra Smith 200+
You are confirming everyone's worst nightmare of Islam.
I read above that you quoted the expression the width between truth and lie are four fingers from the eye to the ear.
CAN YOU REALLY BE SAYING THAT RELIGIOUS KILLINGS ARE ACCEPTABLE?
To quote you:
"killing is better for some people than living."
I do not as a citizen of this world accept that you, your government nor your version of Islam should have the right to decide that.
I am pleading with you to stop and think about what you are saying. Please, for all of our sakes.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
defending your land and family against who wants to kill you and killing who God ordered. For example:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:191
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/9:14
"19 years of living in Islam and I have never heard of that."
I do not know what you hear. If you hear music, music does not speak about Koran.
"God once said : Killing a human is like killing humanity."
agree. do you mean this:?
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:32
"I don't agree with you.Islam is only peace and no war."Do you agree Koran is base of Islam? So what are the verses I showed you about killing? Koran is book of Islam or Buddhism?
"Stop making it look as if its a barbaric religion."
What is definition of barbaric religion?
"If there was a murderous crazy man, he should not be killed."
Are you judge in court?
"There should be no killing."
Yes also about Iraq Palestine Afghanistan Bahrain ,…
"No one has the rights to take anyone's life away."
So why countries have execution?
Since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, 1,253 convicted murderers have been executed in the United States. (As of June 1, 2011)
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/usexecute.htm
"the more you say the worse Iran looks "
Please note from Iran revolution Iran never started any war. Only one war Imposed to Iran and Iran could get lands from Iraq but did not.
I am saying rules of Islam in Koran but please first underestand what Koran says and who should be killed and who should not be killed. Koran has very exact rules for killing and always Koran prefers peace but some times there is no way but defend and killing. What you do if some people occupy your land and kill your family? You stay and look?
"that was never the intention of starting this series"
Clearing the killing rules in Islam is better than hating Islam without knowing about killing rules in Islam. Killing is allowed in Islam only in some special cases.
Also please distinguish killings by
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
So why countries have execution?
Since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, 1,253 convicted murderers have been executed in the United States. (As of June 1, 2011)
Why should we follow the US?!
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"understanding of Iran's culture and people."
At least 95% of Iran are Muslim and their culture is Islam.
"But what you say, your attitude is having just the opposite effect ... "
I hate saying any thing from myself and I try to only say from Koran and prophet and Imam Ali and Ahl Beyt.
"SR- You are frightening me"
please do not prejudice before knowing rules of Islam about killing. Not all non-Muslim should be killed. This rule is also about Muslims. And if you know who should be killed and know all aspects on humanity you will agree killing rules in Islam. Do you know who exactly should be killed in Islam and Koran?
"You are confirming everyone's worst nightmare of Islam. "
Everyone has not correct Image of Islam. Please do not prejudice and also please know cruel emperors after prophet were not deciding as Islam. But killing at life of prophet were according to true Islam.
"CAN YOU REALLY BE SAYING THAT RELIGIOUS KILLINGS ARE ACCEPTABLE?"
RELIGIOUS KILLINGS are two category:
1- Ordered by Allah in Koran
2- Not ordered by Allah and ordered by cruel non-believer emperors of Islamic countries in the name of Islam.
Only first category are accepted and I have no problem saying it. Because our life is a gift from God and God can give it back when ever wants. We had no right to become alive before our birth. Life is from God and can give it back.
"
To quote you:
"killing is better for some people than living." "
Yes. But please do not prejudice before understanding who exactly are those "some people". They are not people of logic and talk and wisdom and they want to kill Muslims for their own worldly benefits and cover on truth to their people do not know truth and they say lies to their people to justify killing Muslims and keep their people in lie Image of Islam.
Please do not prejudice. Do you know who
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"I do not as a citizen of this world accept that you"
Not important. Even if all people of world do not accept a true believer in Allah it is not important and only accept of Allah is enough.
"your government nor your version of Islam should have the right to decide that. "
Why? Do you know how many people your government has killed by execution and by supporting wars against Iran like Iran-Iraq war?
"I am pleading with you to stop and think about what you are saying. Please, for all of our sakes."
Please first understand what we say and do not prejudice and exactly understand who we say should be killed. If you are a human of logic and talk and follow wisdom and truth you should not be killed by Islam. But if you know truth 100% but cover and hide truth from people and say people lies instead of truth Intentionally to people do not understand truth then you should be killed by rules of Koran.
"S.R, you should listen to Debra"
If her sayings be rational I accept.
About nightmare Koran clearly said who should fear Islam and who should not be worry and afraid from Islam.
If some one has wrong Image of Islam and fears with no reason its his/her mistake.
For example:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:62
Also this is other verses about who should fear and who should not fear Islam and Allah:
http://tanzil.net/#search/root/%D8%AE%D9%88%D9%81
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
no.
I quote from Koran and prophet.
"Why should we follow the US?! "
we follow Koran and prophet.
"S.R, God orders us to have good relations with Him AND fellow humans around you regardless of race or religion."
agree:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/49:13
I hate discrimination:
"You are clearly ruining your relationships with fellow friends in TED.Please don't be like this...'
not important. the relationship to God is more important when there is conflict with relationship with people. did you hear about prophet and his relationship with famous and rich people of Arabia?
do you know that prophet was 3 years under sanctions and Persecution and even had no food? why? because prophet preferred the relation with God to relation to people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_by_the_Meccans
"there are some facts about your version of Islam"
what you mean by version of Islam? I am showing you Koran and history. what you mean by version?
"of which I cannot believe in"
no problem. do enough research. and I ask you please do not prejudice and ask me questions to know truth without doubt. [I do not claim anything I say is truth. but please ask before prejudice and make yourself sure about truth]
"You can believe what you want and I hope that you respect my beliefs as well.Have a good day."
OK! no problem. you have free will and you will see result of any of your beliefs and deeds.
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:6
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/99:7
also do you know what God said about believers who believe parts of Book [also Koran] and hide parts of it [verses of killing some special people]?
http://tanzil.net/#2:85
أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ ۚ فَمَا جَزَاءُ مَن يَفْعَلُ ذَٰلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلَّا خِزْيٌ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ أَشَدِّ الْعَذَابِ ۗ وَمَا اللَّـهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ
this is called "light Islam" also "American Islam"
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Proof : Sunni believes Saidina Ali is just a person,the prophets friend.No more than that.But you believe that he is Prophet Muhammad's replacement.I thought god already said that Muhammad was the last prophet and there will be no replacements after that.You do the research now.
Islam does not teach Muslims to kill anyone.If war was really inevitable, then there would be a set of rules during war.No killings is allowed in Islam
“And good and evil deeds are not alike. Repel evil with good. And he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend.” (41:33-34)
The Quran has this to say: “Permission to take up arms is hereby given to those who are attacked because they have been wronged” (22:38)
You want proof? here's the link :
http://islam101.net/peace-in-islam/275-peace-in-quran.html
You do the research now and never accuse anyone blindly.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
in my opinion it is 100% safe.
please do not fear Iran.
although there is conflicts in beliefs in Iran about shia/sunny but it is only in religious debates. not in society.
if a foreigner want to visit Iran usually Iranian people love guest. any kind of guest.
now I say if you came Iran. my home is your home. also I have some friends in Malaysia and Indonesia.
only please take care if you came Iran only do not say any thing bad about Ali and Imams (PBUH). ;) then you are safe.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Comment deleted
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
Everybody lives with fears in Iran and that is what makes it special though (I mean in a good way).
We all used to live with fear when going to school with long hairs (which was not so Islamic) or going out with a girl-friend (which could end up being jailed), or worst of all the fear when having sex (which could end up to lashes etc.)
All these fears were real, however you'll be in trouble for those stuff if you are really really an unlucky person, but you have to live with the fear and experience of being humiliated all the time with sick police men or Basijis which is really hard to bear.
I left Iran with an offer from the Australian Research Council to do some computer science research, but my heart is all back there and I am following the green movement every minute of it. My dream is to see the free Iran one day.
And the matter of satellite dish is that everybody can buy one in the black market and yes they are illegal, but as I said, living under Islamic Regime is to take rist for everything you do (drinking, partying, going to music concerts, etc) so people opt to take the risk (to be honest if you are not political, risk is low but still exists) and that risk is part of life. Luckily the police is terribly corrupt, and the corruption always comes to rescue.
To sum up, life in Iran for me was great. I have had so much fun back there so that I haven't seen anybody else here, in overseas, with such experiences yet.
People like S.R. Ahmadi are the only people who can live the way they want in Iran.
No need to say if you are a political activist you better leave the county with the next flight.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
pleas say we and not say we all.
who are those "we all"?
sorry, I wonder you are girl or boy?
"All these fears were real"
I agree this. but this is not for all.
"People like S.R. Ahmadi are the only people who can live the way they want in Iran. "
I agree you. Iran is a suitable place for believer Muslims.
this is rules of Islam and Islam if have power forces its rules to society.
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
"sorry, I wonder you are girl or boy?"
No comment on this. You know Im a boy and you think you are humiliating me by questioning my gender??? No, in my idea being a girl is not a shame so I won't be humiliated if you judge me as a girl.
"I agree you. Iran is a suitable place for believer Muslims."
Typical answer. You think you are the only true Muslim? Who are the muslims in jail? What about Ayatollah Montazeri who was house arrested until death? What about Ayatollahs in jail only for believing in separation of religion and politics?
"Islam if have power forces its rules to society."
Agree with you.
Tim Colgan 50+
Didn't every European country not only try, but for some period of time do that?
Spain kicked out the Muslims and Jews.
France persecuted the protestants.
The princes of Germany got to chose the religion of their domain.
Geneva was Calvinist.
Italy was (is?) Catholic.
...
Maybe that's a phase that civilization goes through?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
sorry according your name I thought you are girl (نعيمه) and I did not check your gender at your profile. sorry.
"Typical answer. You think you are the only true Muslim?"
NO. never. true Muslim is very rare. even in Iran.
"What about Ayatollah Montazeri who was house arrested until death"
he was a very great expert in the field of religion and Islam but he was not a good politician and his son in law was an anti-revolution and was helping Shah and montazeri helped him and supported his son in law because montazeri could not understand the politics well. so Khomeini asked him only teach and not participate in politics and so he was banned from politics. he was not house arrested. only banned from politics but free in other fields.
Dear wongmo r,
"most European countries tried to do that and look where they are now!"
please do not prejudice about Islam according to your Image or expired religion in west.
also do you know one country not forcing its rules?
about Islam itself there is no force to become Muslims. about an Islamic countries (I do not now an real Islamic country in today world) they are rules of country like other countries.
"Maybe Iran should learn from them before its too late"
religion in west and Iran is far different.
"religion should be something people can choose"
this is true and also Islam is so:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:256
there is no force to some one select Islam.
please distinguish between religion and country rules. they are completely different.
when you select a religion that has conflict with country rules you should keep the parts of your religion conflicting with the rules of country you live in privet or go to other country. this is axiom and is any country. for example in Europe there is some rules limiting Muslims but Muslims respect rules of country while having their religion.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
its interesting to know most European countries specially kicked out the Jews and also Iran and Israel has many conflicts but Iran has the highest population of Jews after US and Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
again I note that please distinguish religion and country rules. they are different.
and please not what Islam says about religion:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:256 (freedom in entering or not entering Islam is a rule of Islam)
in an Islamic socity with Islamic rules people are free to enter or not enter Islam religion but all people should respect rules of Islam like Hijab when they are in public. but in privet people are free) also please note political activity for destroying Islamic government is different of freedom in entering or not entering Islam. and Islamic government does not accept it like any other country. (this is general about Islam. not specially about Iran. perhaps Iran government does not obey Islam rules perfect.
(warning: please distinguish between Islam and Muslim)
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"And if SR has access to a satellite dish he must be in a very favoured position? "
I do not use TV at all (only near one or two time per week) not national channels and not satellite channel. but if I want to use satellite its easy. all my neighbors have satellite dishes and the roof of our building is full of dishes like most roofs in Tehran. even you can check it in Google earth. most roofs in Tehran are full of dishes.
Dear Naiem Yeganeh,
"Everybody lives with fears in Iran ". .
oh really? so I am not in every body?
not every body
I think you are not living in Iran. and better to do not say what you are not sure. I not say all you say is false. but please note there are two main group in Iran.
1- people who are fan of Islamic revolution (having or not having protest about economic problems, prices, jobs,..)
2-people who are not fan of Islamic revolution mostly based on ideologies (not based on economic problems of country)
maybe other groups exist but in my opinion they do not care about politics and only do their life.
as I know and fact of 22 bahman parade show the group 1 is majority and has power. and group 2 are not majority and has not power and are in fear.
also please not the west mostly is not fan of Iran revolution and proved it many times including Iran-iraq war and also sanctions against Iran by UN and also illegal sanctions out of UN rules not only for nuclear problem. even before nuclear problem and a I think from first of Islamic revolution. so it is clear the media of west (cnn/bbc,... and their internet news channels, cinema, Hollywood,..) make propaganda against Islam and Iran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia
so please do not believe any thing you see or hear in media unless yourself see it.
I not say all of them is lie but many of them is overstatement.
its clear when some one is enemy of other uses media as kind of gun against enemy.
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
It means everybody EXCEPT people like you. There are a few more exceptions as well, like people who cause the fear, people in Intelligence Services and Basij, etc.
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
Iets compare 25 of Khordad with 22 Bahman and their circumstances:
First, 25 of Khordad: Protesters came to street. They were aware that by coming to street, they can be arrested, jailed, or killed, but they came to show their anger and opposition. As the mayor of Tehran said, 25 khordad about "3 MILLION" people came to protest. And circumstances: All the social media was closed. Internet was virtually shut down. SMS text messages were shut. And the satellite TVs were totally jam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk72LJr3SC4
And 22 Bahman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sfa35M1bkI
Nearly 200 - 300 thousands came in to street. There has been two months of consecutive state TV advertisement and shows in all 7 channels, all mosques in the country. Yet people were brought to
street from all around Tehran. Only about 4000 busses can be seen in satellite photos. Free food, free gifts, 50,000 tomman checks, etc was distributed). Many of the public workers were taken there by force. (There are about 2 million public employees)
In a country with at least 15 million totally poor people collecting 200 thousand for an ultra wealthy government is peace of a cake (yet is hard for Iranian gov).
Don't forget that we have seen similar scenes of pro-gov crowds in Shah time, in Mubarak time, in Bahrain and Syria.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
why you not show the pics of 22 bahman in the farsnews?
"Free food, free gifts, 50,000 tomman checks, etc was distributed)"
who can not see Iranian people has no way unless saying such thing.
some factories distribute some food in people voluntary. free checks is completely lie. this first time I hear such thing. this is propaganda of BBC and CNN.
this is 200,000?:
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911221118
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911221117
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911221101
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911221089
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911221061
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911221052
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220970
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220939
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220940
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220871
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220819
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220761
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220729
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220670
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220638
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220316
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220539
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220334
I remember a group in Facebook for green movement hardly could not reach even 100,000 fan.
Comment deleted
sha b
Where were you staying? In a hotel in Tehran?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
what poverty you mean?
I know there are many poor people in Iran but if consider the average and majority of people in Iran I disagree they are poor. although Iran has many poor people.
how you define povetry?
also about poverty this is a good action of Imam Khomeini:
http://www.emdad.ir/en/history.asp
now Khomeini Relief Foundation (IKRF) is the biggest support for poors of Iran. some of its stats:
supported high school students: 668000
supported university students: 994000
supported families: 1,940,000
business creation loan paid: 718000
help to people in prison for financial reasons to become free: 34800 case
help to poor families to have income by working at home: 396900 family
please note that Khomeini Relief Foundation (IKRF) is not governmental. but receives some support from government but mostly people help it. nearly in all street in Iran you can see such boxes that are for Khomeini Relief Foundation (IKRF):
http://www.emdadgaran.com/includes/FCKeditor/upload/5%28272%29.jpg
Imam Khomeini insisted Relief Foundation should not become governmental.
also please note that Iran borders are open and a huge number of non Iranians specially Afghans and also Pakistani Iraqi Chinese,... are living and working in Iran and some pics or poor people you see that collect wates and has a terrible appearance are not Iranian.
but still I do not deny Iran has poor people. in my opinion the average and majority of Iran have relatively average life and income although there are poor and jobless people in Iran.
now near all villages of Iran (near 30,000) has drinking water, telephone, electricity, road, natural gas pipelines. before revolution near all villages of Iran has none of them.
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiZ1z4l7Ny4
Iranian food is the best in the world. Well, maybe the same place with Italian food.
Debra Smith 200+
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
If you want to find out information about Iran, google search will help you more than this thread.
Persian Boy:
http://www.google.com.au/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1659&bih=857&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=persian+boy&oq=persian+boy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=7584l8391l0l7l4l0l0l0l0l0l0l
Persian Girl:
http://www.google.com.au/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1659&bih=857&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=persian+girl&oq=persian+girl&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=37157l38028l0l4l4l0l0l0l0l414l414l4-1
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"His photo is a proof that he belongs to a specific political"
how you can distinguish the political from pic? I am not in any political group.
"average Iranian."
perhaps you are right about Tehran. but I disagree about all the Iran. do you know how many village and how many city Iran has? please reply without checking.
"Just google Iranian boy or girl"
I agree you about internet. but internet has not a true Image of all Iranians. the boys and girls in Internet are only part of Iran [in my opinion not majority]
Internet is poor in Iran. low speed. limited areas have it. expensive and other problems. then how you want to Internet have a true Image of ALL Iranians.
Iran has near 80,0000,000 people. do you know them all? how percent of them are supporter of Islamic revolution (even with economic critics) and how percent are anti-revolution?
please do not expand the views of students to all people of Iran. students have mostly western views but are not majority. consider all the Iran. villages, cities, non-students and all. people is not equal students or some part of young like you.I respect you as Iranian scientist but Iranians leaving Iran are not so much and also not all of them have political conflicts.
please only say about what you know. not about all Iranians.
I totally disagree internet can have a true Image of all the Iran. unless with a deep research internet considering all kind of people in Iran.
unfortunately most Muslim people are not active in Internet. usually who go to university and are student mostly have Internet. and in my opinion the majority are not present in Internet.
dear Naiem please say do you consider the people in the last huge 22 bahman parade in all cities of Iran supporting Islamic revolution Iranians?
I do not want to say all you say is false. I only say please do not expand your opinions to all Iranians. and please talk based on valid evidences and statistics.
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
"I agree you about internet. but internet has not a true Image of all Iranians. the b..."
Agree about this with you. But more than 70% of Iranians are under 35. I talk about myself and people I know. Unfortunately government does not allow any independent scientifica research on this topic and there is no real figure about them.
"Iran has near 80,0000,000 people. do you know them all? how percent of them are supporter of Islamic revolution (even with economic critics) and how percent are anti-revolution?"
The best reason that majority are anti-revolution is the terrible fear of regime from a free election or referendum. Any one speaking about a referendum about the credibility of regime (Islamic Republic) will face jail, and execution.
"students have mostly western views but are not majority"
Majority (more than 70%) of Iranians are under 35, big portion are students or have been students in recent years.
"please only say about what you know. not about all Iranians."
I wish you do the same. I have never forced others to think like me or live like me or believe the same as me also.
"I respect you as Iranian scientist but Iranians leaving Iran are not so much and also not all of them have political conflicts."
About 3 million Iranians live overseas. Iran had the greatest brain drought rate in 2010 (don't have time to find the reference but I don't feel the need also)
" in the last huge 22 bahman parade in all cities of Iran"
I told you about 22 bahman in another comment. Supreme leader of Iran said that tens of millions of people participated in 22 bahman!!! Were no reliable source has estimated any number more than 300,000 in Tehran and other cities were few also. It is easy to calculate also based on satellite images (if you are really keen I can prove it). This is the best proof that he is a lier. 10s of millions is something superficial of his excellency.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
actually I do not know about this. can you some some evidence for my reference?
"big portion are students or have been students in recent years."
what is the more exact portion?
also not all students have western thinking.
many of them have no dominant thinking. only living.
" Iran had the greatest brain drought rate in 2010"
please show a valid reference. I doubt this.
I think it is higher about UK ( I do not know). can you show some reference?
"Were no reliable source has estimated any number more than 300,000 "
what is your reliable source? BBC?
only see pics:
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911221118
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911221117
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911221101
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911221089
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911221061
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911221052
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220970
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220939
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220940
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220871
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220819
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220761
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220729
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220670
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220638
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220316
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220539
http://www.farsnews.net/imgrep.php?nn=8911220334
only one street of Tehran is 300,000
you can count in this pics.
please see real about 22 bahman parade.
you want to say free food? people leave their home and come in traffic and air pollution and walk kilometers and leave their works and TV and home and cooler and come walk only for a free cake? also free cake is not enough for all. only some eat it.
Comment deleted
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
There is a certain dress code in Iran (short beard and plain black coat with white shirt which has all buttons tight till the last botton under the neck). This dress code is for people who call themselves Hezbollah or have close (believe) tights to them. It is a well known standard in Iran and someone who dresses like that, does so to show off his political and religious beliefs and that they think close to the government. An ordinary person has no reason to choose that specific look.
Understanding this can be a little hard for non-Iranian but this is a well known phenomenon in Iran.
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
And my judgement on the photo of Mr Ahmadi was not based on him being good or bad. I am sure he is a well-hearted and honest person. Only I judged him on not being a typical Iranian youth wich I still think is valid. He somehow agreed with me on this issue.
I wanted to make sure that audience of this page get a correct (in my opinion) image of Iran. Otherwise I can say I like Mr. Ahmadi from this talks (although I strongly disagree with him) and he is a type of person that would be a nice friend.
Debra Smith 200+
(The squabbling I can get from my kids!)
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi0egvuCRCo
Iran is the country of contrasts. Government is ruled by the minority islamists but huge (and growing) number of seculars live in Iran today, specially in the midel class. Some independent social scientists claim if by any chance the current political regime falls over, in a democratic system Islamists groups will have a very small share of power.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
if they are minority so how they have the absolute power?!
"Some independent social scientists claim if by any chance the current political regime falls over, in a democratic system Islamists groups will have a very small share of power."
yes but only problem is:
IF
Some independent social scientists does not have name?
Kristofer Björnson 10+
Naiem Yeganeh 10+
I once wrote a tool to find all the jokes (based on usual joke keywords) from the sms. There was an average of 3 million jokes sent around through sms every day on our tiny network.
I still have the file and sometimes read it through and laugh for hours.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
joke is every day saying of Iranians. they usually make joke for themselves (for Iranian ethnics). but this is an ugly culture of Iranians.