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"You need clear, open visibility of what the best people in that crowd are capable of, because that is how you will learn how you will be empowered to participate."
http://www.ted.com/talks/chris_anderson_how_web_video_powers_global_innovation.html
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Closing Statement from Tim Colgan
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This conversation, though initially open-ended, was singled out by TED for early termination, despite the fact that it generated significant traffic and interesting conversations.
Transparency and openness is essential for the success of an endeavor such as the one TED conversations has claimed as its purpose.
This has become a dictatorial and closed environment.
"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" (see Birdia's Leopold Kohr quote "The Power Theory of Aggression" below for the more elaborate version).
In memory of Pabitra (PBUH).
For when this gets expunged - an unexpurgated version of this conversation will soon be placed here:
http://tcolgan.freeshell.org/nothing
Googling "Nothing's off topic" should work soon.
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Tim Colgan 50+
This thought has been on my mind. Is it possible that a single world government will not come about because without alternatives for comparison any government would simply devolve? Is competition between governments necessary to determine which approach is best?
Jim Moonan 30+
As flawed and feckless as it is, the United Nations is a first step towards that end - So you see how far we have to go...
Ive said it before and I'll say it again:I will die a happy man if this fragmented world saw the light and crystalized into one world. I think it will, but not in my lifetime.
Comment deleted
Tim Colgan 50+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Supernatural to me use to be just "what is beyond the knowledge involved in nature" or "what is not understood yet in nature"
Here on TED people stick it to ideas of religion too often and that is not where the word usage originated from.
Tim Colgan 50+
Yeh, I really liked that concept:
supernatural = "what is not understood yet in nature"
Some how it gets turned into "what you can't understand unless you study Kaballah (or name your favorite holy literature) like me".
Debra Smith 200+
su·per·nat·u·ral /ˌsupərˈnætʃərəl, -ˈnætʃrəl/ Show Spelled
[soo-per-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to god or a deity.
3. of a superlative degree; preternatural: a missile of supernatural speed.
EXPAND4. of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult. COLLAPSE
–noun
5. a being, place, object, occurrence, etc., considered as supernatural or of supernatural origin; that which is supernatural, or outside the natural order.
6. behavior supposedly caused by the intervention of supernatural beings.
7. direct influence or action of a deity on earthly affairs.
Paul van Zoggel
somebody supersmart = "somebody not understood yet by others"
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Pretty much any thread about "God" religion, and atheism.
Edited: Bridia,
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supernatural
Etymology of "supernatural" - From Latin supernaturalis, from super (“above”) + natura (“nature; that which we are born with”), from natus (“born”), perfect passive participle of nasci (“to be born”) + adjective suffix -alis.
"Ghost" being related to the supernatural is a newer occurrence, but spirits.
"English-speakers use the word "spirit" in two related contexts, one metaphysical and the other metaphorical." (Wikipedia)
Etymology of "spirit" - Middle English spirit from Latin spīritus (“breath; spirit”). Compare inspire, respire, transpire, all ultimately from Latin spīrō (“I breathe, blow, respire”). Displaced native Middle English gast "spirit" (from Old English gāst "breath, soul, spirit").
Depending on the school of philosophy will depend on the usage of "spirit".
No "supernatural" did not begin through ideas and the words spirits and ghost, but through philosophies attempting to understand nature.
John S Connerly
I believe she posted her question as a challenge in response to your totally wrong definition of the word: "Supernatural to me use to be just what is beyond the knowledge involved in nature or what is not understood yet in nature"
What?!
Debra's definition is adequate IMHO.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
"Nic, what was the origin of the word "supernatural"? ghosts/spirits?"
It was hardly a lecture, and I did not know how to interpret her question.
Sorry John, I just simplified my interpretation, but it is not wrong as it goes into a few of the definitions in which Debra posted.
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal. (beyond the knowledge involved within* nature)
3. of a superlative degree; preternatural (what is not understood yet in nature)
If you interpreted it as a lecture, fine, otherwise, perhaps I mistaken Birdia's question. Again, I am not wrong. If you feel I am please by all means, debate.
John S Connerly
Her first comment: "I'm all for it as long as it is not haunted by the supernatural."
I think the usage of the word 'supernatural' here is as a noun.
Debra's post:
–noun
5. a being, place, object, occurrence, etc., considered as supernatural or of supernatural origin; that which is supernatural, or outside the natural order.
6. behavior supposedly caused by the intervention of supernatural beings.
7. direct influence or action of a deity on earthly affairs.
How do your ideas of the word fit in there?
What is there to debate?!
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Also the etymology was suffice, the word supernatural itself was originally the today's adjective interpretation and then made into the current noun (pertaining to ghost and spirits) was established around/during the modern English language consensuses, I should have actually lectured, supernatural meaning "beyond nature" predates "spirits/ghost" by 300 hundred years at least.
Claiming me to be totally wrong and to be doing something I thought* was was asked to answer, seems immature, grow up sir.
Edited: Apparently I indeed mistook Birdia's question, you were right that my reading of her question was misguided. Which is fine with me, lesson learned.
Tim Colgan 50+
Jim Moonan 30+
It may be that the "World" government acts as an umbrella under which "Continental" (for lack of a better word) governments operate
I'll try to use the US government as an analogy.
Think of 3 layers of government:
1) The the world government would be analogous to the federal government, with an executive, legislative and judicial branches.
2) The continental governments would be analogous to the state governments
3) Then there would be "cultural" governments that would be analagous to our local governance.
Separation of religion and state would need to occur at the "World" and "Continental" levels, but "Cultural" governments would have the freedom to develop a government that was whatever the local customs, etc. are.
I think we should do it....
Paul van Zoggel
a. to protect the interest of 'investors' with force.
b. to arrange basic conditions for the workers for 'investors', so their employees do not get sick and do not complain all the time.
1. So yes the continental government, Though these continental governments will not function as the state governments. They have a different role. I believe there will be a ying-Yang situation of 11 continents, all having their SWOTs strengths/weaknesses/opportunities/threats though these 11 sit at a round table. Making the balance in "MeFirst-WeFirst" terms.
2. There is the region for survival, this is about 35km/22 miles to 150km/100 miles, depending on the population densities. This will be regulated by crowdsourcing principles, supply and demand is in balance because of technology. No government interference is needed as the basics of survival is arranged through computers, preordering food and resources will become normal, LESS WASTE, LESS STRESS, communitarian principles and common good thrive (best of capitalism and communism, leaving out biggest rotten eggs)
3. On the continents there are several boards as continents are big and after each about 1400 km the temperament/culture is different. They also do the tax thingies.
What I can see, the EU is already to big to handle and should be 3 different regions of 1400 KM radius, for practical-logistic and cultural reasons.
Jim Moonan 30+
Very good thoughts...
I think before something like we are talking about is viable much else needs to evolve... economies, a mixing of cultures, standards of living, health, education, etc. for lack of a better term, Globalization.
Once this happens, the whole equation changes and the possibility of something like we are talking about becomes real.
Paul, you said: "On the continents there are several boards as continents are big and after each about 1400 km the temperament/culture is different. They also do the tax thingies."
"What I can see, the EU is already to big to handle and should be 3 different regions of 1400 KM radius, for practical-logistic and cultural reasons."
This is why I think a 3rd level would be needed - Cultural governments that would have jurisdiction over, in EU's case, 3 different geographic areas.
Does that make any sense?
Paul van Zoggel
I believe there is nature for the body and culture for the mind.
Culture vs tradition is used/abused
Culture vs national is "/"
Culture vs Art is "/"
We need the mathematics of culture I guess, the basic rules, like http://www.ted.com/talks/damon_horowitz.html is talking about when referring to Plato. Basic ingredients of any local culture there can't be any misunderstanding/discussion about like 2 = 2.
An analogy I like; You can't make soup without water. For the rest the soup is up to local ingredients and personal taste.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
John S Connerly
"Culture = the minor differences that divide the world more than religion does."
Don't blame culture if you're a victim of your own. It is racism, sexism and prejudice of all kinds, both blatant and subtle, that is dividing our world.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Trust me, it is a lot more than just racism, sexism and other prejudices.
It is the cultures that endorse prejudices that divide the world.
I put the "more than religion does" as a denotation that religion also does divide us, but also that religion has a lot to do with cultures.
Paul van Zoggel
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
"So my focus;
SCHOOL : where to go?
FOOD : where to go?
If enough people care and focus, we can solve these two basics in survival together."
Insightful, what do you feel are and can be a contributing factor towards what separate(s) the world? Which has more of a playing role, school or food, for making this altruistic perspective/viewpoints a reality?
Paul van Zoggel
'contributing factor'; Google Fridays. Every person, every company should implement 1 day a week to work on something bigger than themselves like school or food challenges.
'playing role'; School is most important to collectively address globally, and it can be pragmatically possible. It is to redesign the way we prepare children for the world by inspiring the leaders who have the means by actually doing so. There have been many attempts in recent 20 years, though (ofcourse) now it will work. This takes time, though there are some shortcuts at hand.
Food starts with empowering yourself and countryside. And should be involved in schooling also ofcourse. Though we are with 6 billion people and mother nature didn't count on that. What is important is to start to see the duality in everything between 'survival' and 'luxury', if we understand that, globally we can start solving the food chain.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Paul van Zoggel
We have tried to work with them, but as long as we don't offer instant ways of saving time and better results, we are off.
So start with students learning to become a teacher, show them different ways, as they are fresh, open minded. By the time they get into schools they ofcourse are heading for the same daily overload, though have learned about an alternative.
There you have your start.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Consider,
In response to fixing this "shit filled education system of academia" simply add one class "Critical Science-Fiction 101" - A class where sci-fi movies and books will be read, analyzed, articulated, and reflected upon the current times in which we live in. This can do a great deal of benefits for the world and for the children themselves.
- More globally aware young citizens
- More creative imaginations in reflection to the real world
- A better understanding of bio-products, transhumanistic philosophies, and robotics.
- More reason to be interested in science; not just seen as a bunch of definitions and math problems....
- Perhaps even more interest into other fields of study also. Cannot have a future without history. Math is a universal language. etc..
http://www.ted.com/conversations/2505/reading_science_fiction_for_a.html
In response to a beneficial universal education system:
- A democratic education, should be installed everywhere, immediately.
- 3 months of summer changes. Ridiculous to maintain this value today... Just give more hours and less days OR less hours more days. Vote on it, but 3 months summers are where the youth get their education for getting wasted more than they are getting prepared for their futures.
- Education systems that inspire all children to the fullest contention in each field of study. + When you study math, stop teaching yes or no answer, teach them what math is and can do for life! + Science, stop teaching it like a history lesson, get their hands dirty and blow something up! (Can go for academia also)
We cannot start with the teachers... the teachers are already ready to get working on the "treadmill of anxiety" that is the 10 hour work day of school, lesson plans, and grading... The only thing that teachers need to change are their salaries.
Systems need to change, all educations, not just public,
Paul van Zoggel
Yes to change it tomorrow; show me the proof of some testruns to scale it up globally, and it is possible next week...
Teachers, Parents and Children ask for change, a revolution, all 3 together is the first time in history. Though all are stuck in chicken-egg story.
Nicholas, are you prepared to go beyond English and Philosophy?
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
English itself is a joke major.... Philosophy is too broad.... they are both silly in my opinion. Just using them to get me our of this nation..
I do not see a revolution for a few more years or a decade... depends on how angry our teachers get here in the states.
Tim Colgan 50+
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Kohr
Your suggestions remind me of his thinking.
Paul van Zoggel
Debra Smith 200+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Or, and I prefer this possibility that those who crave power carry other traits about control and domination that co-occurr with pleasure in torture.
I'd rather entertain the possibility of a ghost viisting than entertain the possibility that we are all somehow capable of such acts.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
"But what is the critical magnitude leading to abuse? The answer is not too difficult. It is the volume of power that ensures immunity from retaliation. This it does whenever it induces in its possessor the belief that he cannot be checked by any existing larger accumulation of power"
chilling
don't think I accept that
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
.Buckie Fuller used to say" think globally act locally"
We need the engagement of local community, neighborhood before we engage effectively as national citizens let alone global citizens. That loss of community and neighborhood sensibility, I believe. is part of the huge disconnect I think between "we the people" and "those folk in Washington".That was a premise of my undergraduate thesis many moons ago, although I was not aware of Kohls at the time.Others wrote about about it as well..Jane Jacobs, Oscar Newman
The extreme that Kohls is pointing to in the quote Birdia shared below, as an end result of huge ruling enities accountable to no one, grows naturally from the disenfranchisement that comes from non engagement. ( iei no one is looking, no one is involved in carrrying it forward anchored in values of community and humanity)We have a saying in Maine. "You can't get there from here".Look what our disefranchisement allows now.. Look how we vote. Look how disconnected we are from what our governmnet actually is doing and has done for decades.our . It's a recipe for exactly the grim prospect Kohls presents in ever larger and ever more powerful government units
.@ Birdia "Hope it makes you feel better"
Paul van Zoggel
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
What Kohl is saying seems to connect up with gunatanmao in my mind..unimaginable that the U.S. would have created Gunatanamo and used the exceptinal challaenges of terrorism to pour holy water on the use of torture. I don't think that could have happened is we as a country ..we the people were not so disconnected from what our givernmnet is actually doing..
It re enforces Kohl hypothesis that certainty of non retaliation is an ingredient to these horeenduous degradions of humanity . Th Us assumed that we would excuse it if we found out..there was no fear of retaliation or challenge ( they thought).
Obviously many factors other than size play into governmnets undertaking these actions .my working theory at the moment is that it also requires whne a democracy unertakes these things a deep dinfranchisement of "we the people"
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
The main message for the world today from Buckie's work, what he would want us to remember and carry on is at the individual level. There is a wonderful essay at scribd which he wrote weeks before he died addressed to the world's youth...I will try to find it and bring it here.
His suicide by drowining was interrupted by a voice that said "what are you doing, your life doesn't belong to you , it belongs to humanity" He stumbled out of the water went home to his cold water flat in chicago and went into complete silence for two yeasr to ponder what that meant and how that was possible tha tone life could mean anything to humanity.
Hhe emerged not with a vision of dymaxion domes(that din't come til later as a class project at Black Mountain) but a sort of "rule of life" from which he knew somehow his life would make a difference to humanity.
His essay reflects back to that moment in the lake and tries to speak to how that emanated how that became that his one life gave so much, inspired so many to "think globally and cat locally"..it is specifucaklly addressed to the young.Would be a great Ted Talk.".the power of one"..how one life can mean so much to so many and pass its value on through the generations.
Buckie's story, the way he lived his life, even what he said in his last essay would have a high woo factor for the Ted atheist/agnostic community ..I'm afraid it would set Birdia's supernatural alarms off. But the core idea is universal and acessible and true. His life is proof that it is true.
Paul van Zoggel
I would love to read his vision/kick under his butt. It is indeed hard to explain why 'my thoughts' are not mine and are for humanity, lately I refer to Stephen Pressfields book ; The War of Art... it made me laugh and made me understand this bigger 'in-spiration' picture and how it works (for me).
I was in other discussions on the 'supernatural' and agree on old religions belong in museums not to be fought upon in material ways, though the essence should become immortal once again in new mythologies as we long badly for it and hollywood movies are not enough.
Anyways, on buckminster fuller; my favorite quote; don't argue about something which is not good, 'simply' offer a better alternative.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm_mark
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Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Otherwise "origin" through me off, we have been in disputes before over poor communications, on both sides of our arguments. We are vastly different people Birdia.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
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Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Glad my confused misinterpretation was humorous.
P.S. - This conversation is perfect.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
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Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
"Now, and for a long time the USA has been becoming a Socialistic-Semi-Capitalist-Fascist Nation. China has become a Socialistic-Semi-Capitalist-Fascist Nation."
A republic is a form of government that adopts many systems in which runs the systems. China and the U.S are republics today, definitely.
I agree with all you have to say, but my pessimism in the topic of uniting the world under one government still remains. While the ideals of money = wealth/power, those who own all the wealth and power will keep it to themselves...
"I would say no money = union"
**No money in one world government Tim**
Nice conclusion :-P (maybe, I am misunderstanding you though)
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Tim Colgan 50+
A thesis gets established. It has shortcomings. An antithesis is proposed. The two battle it out. A synthesis emerges. Rinse and repeat.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Tim Colgan 50+
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Birdia + Time + Kris, you are welcome to stay on my property let alone visit! It is rare for me to find those who enjoy philosophy, art, and worldly issues in my area of living.
Kris, I know you have a distaste for the following, but I still think it is valuable for considering how the world would work united... you guessed it...
Venus Project - is an organization that advocates American futurist Jacque Fresco's visions of the future with the aim to improve society by moving towards a global sustainable social design that they call a "resource-based economy". Such a system incorporates sustainable cities and values, energy efficiency, collective farms, natural resource management and advanced automation, focusing on the benefits they claim it will bring to humanity. (Wiki)
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
I just find this quote more and more true as I see the world what it is and what it could be/
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
references to "you can also study the already realized versions of such systems, in the former eastern bloc. an experiment stopped abruptly when their economies collapsed."
How would V.P want to control exactly? lol
Krisztián Pintér 200+
v.p. wants to control everything with a giant computer. even the idea of a "good" distribution of resources indicate that they think they can show us what is "good". and if something is definitely good, i see no reason why to allow different approaches. destroying money also points into this direction. money is required for participants in the economy to distribute information. without that information the economy can't function on its own, it needs central planning.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
My history class probably wasn't like yours Kris. We learned all of the American wars - 3 times a piece - before we were allowed to choose a world history class...which was Europe instead.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Ever since you argued with me original on V.P I did do research on socialism, and there are always flaws with a system who wants equality but no one is willing to share wealth...
Pure socialism and communism can work, but without central banking.
The fact they haven't worked means they cannot work in alliance to Capitalism or Republic-ism ideals.
However if altruistic qualities were placed into the central design of socialistic society, there would be a lot more room for improvement. "The bakery co-op is also significant because its assembly-line workers earn over $65,000 a year." http://www.axiomnews.ca/NewsArchives/2009/October/October21.html
The bakery employees make over 65k a year, because their bosses are all the employees, that is pure socialistic ideologies.
I know it is not the same to have seen and lived through the experience of a collapsing system. However the system collapse because of the people. The people need to be blamed more often. They should have rioted, they should of have destroyed the banks and protested at the government buildings.
The middle east is now an example of how and why people should start taking charge of their governments. So that equality is not expected but taken.
Again, it is hard for me to talk, I been privileged not to see these awful events, however find yourself lucky you were able to pull through and can live through such challenges and be able to be free in thought like you are, the world's poor beats the world's rich a million to one. That is not right, and that is because of money being seen as more than a tool for trade.
Sorry for the rant, but, we need to start figuring out how to eliminate culture, eliminate extra, and focus on what matters for all. That is socialistic-communism, but not in the political manner but in the true manner.
Politics involve military and money. Money shouldn't be cared for over humans, and our only enemy should be aliens who want our resources, not one another!
Krisztián Pintér 200+
people can be blamed if they have the responsibility and the power to make decisions. in socialism, they didn't have. everything is decided centrally, people just have to comply. socialism didn't fail because people refused to comply. socialism failed because the central decisions were awful. and i claim that nobody can do better. not even the envisioned supercomputer. only the distributed knowledge of the 7 billion can.
btw don't think my life was so disastrous. when i was born, in the late socialism, things were much better, as they continually stole technology and methods from the west. so we had food (bread is bread, no brands. 2 types of milk, such variety of everything), we had cars (trabant, wartburg, dacia and lada), we had flats to live in (provided by the state), we could travel (inside the bloc, outside of it once in every 3 years, only if you behaved well). meanwhile, the government borrowed money like crazy to be able to provide even this.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Then I must rephrase, democratic-socialism through technology. Would also comply to 7 billion being the leaders. Education all people how to be a citizen of the world, and the world would be one citizen. Do you think that is brainwashing or just altruism?
I like the respective you gave me, it was insightful! Glad you did not find it too terrible.
You know, from talking to you a few months ago and now, you seem to have considered a lot of different view points (opinions and thoughts) from then until now. Am I thinking correctly or is it just my imagination playing tricks on my consciousness?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Simply, dictate to me, how you begin to start your ideal government, and then tell me how it would maintain itself.
A brevity of an answer would be suffice, but it would be interesting to hear what you would do with your own system to dictate over, for an experiment.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
I meant dictate as to describe what you would want in a government!
However, since this is your standpoint (which is brilliant).
Describe your ideal education system to help people be citizens and not to be followers of a system then!
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
"we are fine!"
I think there was a miscommunication.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
No not about government, sorry a mis-translation through context. Sorry.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
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Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
But, his messages were imaginative.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Tony Sanchez
Or look at Italy, whose prime minister still believes that women belong to the kitchen, and claims loud and clear:" better cheat on your wife with a gorgeous 19 year old than being gay".
Then we have Merkel, to whom I wouldn't even give the keys of a kebab shop by fear of having to file for bankruptcy the following year.
Let's not forget about the UK, one time colonizer today colonized by the 'demons' of the excelling US foreign policies. And those are the nations of the G8...
I really believe we're all on the same bag right now, and that bag is on its way to the landfill unless we redirect the course of our Evolution. Am I off topic? ;)
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Jim Moonan 30+
Where does the term “fractal disaster” come from? Is that term referring to how you feel the EU is showing signs of becoming? It sure feels at times like we (USA) are on that road... and then sometimes I think it is bigger than that; that it is a global “fractal disaster”; and then sometimes I think it’s not a disaster, it’s just the way one epoch ends and another begins.
I don’t think the world is anywhere near ready for a One World form of governance. It will be a long time before we are evolved to the point where economies, cultures, and the many other things you mentioned will be ready for it. A long, long time.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
and it explains my frustration with the eu.
Paul van Zoggel
Jim Moonan 30+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Rosemeri Chaney