TED Conversations

nouria hakem

This conversation is closed.

Why the Western countries do not say anything against the apostasy crime ?

Hello,
In my country, Qatar, not to accept the coran is punished of imprisonment.
That does not disturb the muslims but all those who are apostate are obliged to keep silent itself.
I board make part of my studies in the United States and the difference in education is immense, I prefer the life in the United States.
Islam lowers the woman, it makes people not intelligent, they are closed of spirit. Many beats the women.
The occident should react and push with our best recognition.

Topics: religion violence
Share:
  • thumb
    May 31 2011: The demand from inside should come first to have a progressive and sustainable change. "Self help is the best help".
    Greed for Oil resource kept west to be friendly with tyrannical regimes in Middle East, where the basic human rights of it's inhabitants are at stake every moment. Women citizen being biggest sufferer. And immigrant workers are treated simply inhumanly.

    Needs overall reform , addressing one or two issue will not solve much & whatever it is, drive should be intrinsic first.
  • May 31 2011: I believe there are certain fundamental human rights that should be afforded to every human being and protected under international law. Failure to ensure these rights should be considered a crime against humanity, and any individual should be able to bring a case before the ICC or similar international court, if the country does not have enforceable laws protecting these rights. Then it would not be considered western interference. Maybe we need an international court specifically for crimes against women, since this is so prevalent.

    Some of these fundamental rights are:
    Freedom from discrimination on the basis of gender, race or any demographic characteristic. This means that a woman can be educated, drive a car, not be subjected to "virginty test", and similar indignities.

    The freedom to practice any religion of choice (or not), as long as it does not infringe on the rights of anyone else

    The right to be an independent human being, not someone's property

    The right to have access to an education

    I am sure there are others but these come to mind on the spur of the moment. It is frustrating to know that such grave injustices are inflicted on people, particularly women and children, every minute of every day, and yet we are powerless to do anything about it. It is interesting that the leaders of these countries themselves engage in whatever western practices catch their fancy, while holding the lash of "righteousness" against their citizenry. Surely, there must be a better way. I think oil is a factor but not the only one. Many oil-poor countries abuse their women and children and the international community is still powerless to do anything. I wish I had a good answer, Nouria.
    • thumb
      May 31 2011: You go girl!!
      • Jun 1 2011: Hi Debra. Injustice and abuse really bother me. Your refugee suggestion is a good temporary solution, but in the long term, people ought to be able to live in their home countries - wherever that may be - without fear, harassment or persecution. These are cowardly acts wrought by hypocritical regimes who have no problem throwing wild parties for their own kin. Amnesty International should be able to play a role but I am not sure how effective they are. I really do think we need an international criminal court for crimes against women - enough already with this barbaric behavior.
        • thumb
          Jun 1 2011: Julie Ann,

          Your argument is very convincing to me. I, too believe that there needs to be an international court that is supported by all nations with the fundamental concepts of Human Rights. I would nominate Louise Arbour as its first justice.

          My suggestion was merely a stop gap measure (and a bit tongue in cheek towards the end.) but I too have never understood why killing people was necessary if you were religious- wasn't an eternity in hell good enough- when they got there by natural means? I have always wondered why countries do not trade citizens - it seemed a sensible solution to me- but you are right when you point out that people should have the right to live with their friends and family- but it is often exactly those people who are most likely to kill them in these circumstances.
      • Jun 1 2011: Debra, like your swap idea - international trade? As for the family complicity in these crimes - never ceases to amaze me and regardless of belief, where is the sense of humanity? There have been too many such incidents in Canada.
        Nouria's argument is that the west should intervene. Sovereignty is an issue but I think the human factor is more important. It is a bit like if my neighbors are abusing their children, I know about it but choose to do nothing with the excuse that it is none of my business and I have no right to interfere. Meanwhile, the children endure untold suffering.
        Under international law, there must be a way to accomplish change legally and effectively for the victims Nouria describes. I know this is an issue that many of us are concerned about. Good talking to you again. Cheers
    • thumb
      Jun 1 2011: Hi Julie

      That would be good solution , I mean having an International effective Watchdog that will ensure implementation of laws whenever any sort human rights violation happens.

      However specifically in Oil Rich Middle Eastern countries, a whole paradigm shift of the psyche of overall population is needed as the Citizens who are aware that their rights are violated every moment & have intension to protests (definitely they are right), those very Citizens find it to be completely fine to ill treat immigarnt workers. When immigrant workers are more than 50% of the total population in some case they are 70-80% even !!

      Number doesn't matter though as a single violation is violation & unacceptable , just want to give an idea how many people are exposed to mentioning those percentages.
      • Jun 1 2011: Salim, you bring up a good point. Denigration becomes a way of life, passed from one to the other. And I agree, the collective psyche needs to be addressed. Maybe in the process of getting across the message of humanity and humane treatment of one group, it can be extended to all groups.
    • thumb
      Jun 1 2011: I think you might be able to make some good contributions to this if you'd take the time Julie. It is a forum on what we as the TED community can agree upon.

      http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=8649b

      This was spawned from the conversation
      http://www.ted.com/conversations/3058/finding_common_ground_what_do.html
      • thumb
        Jun 1 2011: I agree Thomas and Julie Ann I hope you will!
      • Jun 2 2011: Thomas and Debra, done - they are somewhere at the bottom of the list, I guess. Thanks for the nudge :-)
  • thumb
    May 31 2011: Nouria: You bring up a fascinating topic.

    Many times people in the occident would like to help with situations such as this. But when they attempt to, they are often accused of meddling in a countries internal affairs. And often they are! The goodwill of some is often exploited by others (for example - missionary/capitalist alliances) for their own agendas.

    How would you suggest that people can help with the plight you describe without causing negative repercussions?
    • May 31 2011: To change economic policy while passing to renewable energies, thus allowing a means of pressure by a less strong demand for oil.
      A philosophical and religious opening to reduce the islamist endoctrination would be a counterpart with an equal demand for oil.
      • thumb
        Jun 1 2011: Nouria: Your observation on the impact of the existence of valuable natural resources (which are monopolized by the power elite) on the politics of the Middle East is a very interesting point. And the alliance between political power and religion is a natural outcome.

        Obviously, sometime in the future, the world will not be so centered on oil. History shows that energy sources evolve - from wood, to coal, to gas/oil, to... And eventually the Middle East will lose that factor in it's political equation. But it might be a long wait for that to happen.

        What else could be done to tip the balance of power?
  • Jun 30 2011: Hi Nouria, I am assuming you are a muslim so i would like you to take a minute and watch this video - http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/mustafa_akyol_faith_versus_tradition_in_islam.html

    The Quran, which is the fundamental basis of Islam does not lower women as you believe. A proof of this the story of Aisha - who i like to call the 1st Feminist as she lived, went to wars and fought beside the Prophet. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha)
    A link explaining the controversy around her age is here too
    http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25106

    If you do understand the truth you will see that your problem is not Islam but traditions that have been ingrained in Islam. Ultimately, what you need to do is solve your problem yourself as many of us are trying to do. Use the TED talks to spread your idea and the truth in your own way and turn to allies to spread the truth. Im not saying it will be easy but what i am saying is that it is necessary for you to be a driver and part of that change. Read as much as you can and start small. If you run to the west what happens to your mum, sister, aunt, grandmother and other women? What happens then when you get there and someone sees you and treats you unjustly because you are an Arab and still has painful memories of terrible acts he/she recieved driven by misconceptions of Islam? where will you run to then?
  • thumb
    Jun 1 2011: While this is a serious issue that needs corrected the west is in plenty of hot water for attempting to change policies in other countries already. What would you want to happen? An invasion? Or perhaps some trade embargoes? Seems these would hurt other aspects of the country. The best the west could do is to lead by example and provide support for the idea for freedom of point of view.
  • thumb
    Jun 1 2011: I suppose I have 2 reactions to this question. One is a natural sympathy and of course support for the freedom of speech and religion. This kind of intolerance is abhorrent.
    However, I have to offset that versus what right do I/we 9the Western countries) have to comment on the internal matters of another country.
    I guess we'd be pretty upset if the Emir told us that the women-folk of London should cover up more?
    Perhaps this is really a question on the nature of democracy vs dictatorship? Maybe we have (slightly) more moral authority to interfere in another state when the regime is undemocratic? But seems tough to me, and a little arrogant, for me in the West to tell other countries what to do, even if I find it unattractive.
  • thumb
    Jun 1 2011: Perhaps one of the reasons why more people in the west are aware of the dangers of making apostacy a crime is that some of our most respected cultural heros were made the victims of such laws, some even put to death: Jesus, Socrates, and Galileo are examples. Also, protestant religions emerged within a context of being accused of heresey, so some of them developed attitudes in favor of freedom of religion. Catholics were later discriminated against in countries where protestants were in the majority. Thus, lots of catholics have also come to eliee inb freedom of religion. Could one point to similar situations in Islamic countries where some sect or individual who has eventually gained great respect have previously experienced being in a position of being accused of apostacy or something similar?

    Unfortunately, we have some significant lack of cultural memory so that there seems to be a swing back toward involving religion in government. The 1960's were probably the high point for religious freedom in the US. We seem to be slowly collapsing toward theocracy, step by step. The rise of the power of fundamentalists in the Repulican Party, together with the rise of power of the Republican Party, are a measure of where we are headed.

    When ignorant people are given the legal power to punish divergence from their own views, they use that power against the wise. When wiser people are given that power, they do not use it because they would rather use education, discussion, and the arts to persuade others of what they believe is the truth. Thus, the legal power to punish people based on beliefs is one power that ought not exist since it will only be used by ignorant people for evil purposes.
  • thumb
    Jun 1 2011: Maybe an "international womens council" brought about by women across the world to bring political pressure upon those regimes,"Change or your women leave you"it would take the voice of all women across the net,no man would raise a gun to 100.000 women protesting in every country or how about a womens U.N
    • thumb
      Jun 1 2011: Could a women's revolution (the Pink Revolution?) be the essence of the singularity?
  • thumb
    May 31 2011: it is interesting you ask why the west don't do something against it. why don't you (plural) do something against it? why don't people there do something?

    it also brings up the question, who is the "west"? i personally should do something? what can i do? can you help me? can you recommend something?

    governments should do something? what? countries are sovereign. other countries have not much to influence them. embargo, military intervention, assassination of leaders are not good ways, i'm sure we agree.

    so i just repeat what i always do: free trade and free cooperation is the best way to go. and i'm doing my best to convince people about that, so they vote accordingly.
  • thumb
    May 31 2011: The west cannot impose much influence over the workings within a country that is dominated by religious thought. The members of that society have sovereignty there. However, I am really tired of countries being able to kill off their own citizens for 'crimes' that are not crimes in other nations.

    Why not develop reciprocal treaties that allow us to 'trade' citizens like we have prisoner exchanges?

    In most countries that accept immigrants there are policies which consider apostacy 'persecution' and afford the person refugee status. The problem is that those processes are slow and relgious persecutors are fast. I wish we could have people who are unhappy in one country placed on a waiting list and whenever there was someone who is convicted with crazy 'crimes' like apostacy or homosexuality or whatever, the two nations would simply trade citizen for citizen. With one person taking over the rights of the other in their new society gaining new citizenship and no right to return. Failing that -they should have to take one of ours that we no longer want (maybe a crooked politcian????)

    Odd reasoning perhaps, but I cannot see the flaw in it if people on both sides were willing (except that politician - he no longer gets a vote).
    • thumb
      May 31 2011: these waiting lists would be very unbalanced, i believe. i mean, we have a lot of guys bragging about the fall of the west, but how many of them would want to go to iran for example? or those, who advertise the gross national happiness, they're not going to move to bhutan, i bet.
      • thumb
        May 31 2011: We just need one at a time from a country of miilions who want a new life or to start over or to be near their beloved spiritual leader. (but That's why I want to put the crooked politicians on the list. ; )
      • thumb
        May 31 2011: Just have to tell you that they need to give me more 'thumbs up' capital because I just got another 'bink" and it feels like so many great comments are going unrewarded. So KUDOS! That was sharp!
  • thumb
    May 31 2011: I support you Nouria!

    Why?
    I think all forms of persecution because of falsehoods are to be forbidden... One should never be punished for being critical or willing to question (false) beliefs!

    So let us know where to vote or sign if you need moral support. I hope you can find more local voices... (There must be some hidden organisations trying to change it over there, don't you think?)
    • thumb
      Jun 1 2011: One should also not be punished for ridiculing 'true' beliefs, being that belief is a matter of opinion.