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S. Ahmadi

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Islam beliefs & Christianity beliefs. fiction? deviation? true?

this topic is not related to existing or proving God and assumed God exist.
existing God is discussed in other topics like:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
http://www.ted.com/conversations/1599/who_is_god.html
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3023/is_more_than_one_god_possible.html
http://www.ted.com/conversations/923/proving_god.html

is there any connection between two beliefs?
Christians worship Jesus Christ as God our creator.
Quran validate the Bible to some extent
does the Bible validate the Quran?
are the Muslim God & the Christian God are the same?
Islams says extinction of human existed before Adam&Eve.
does Some Christians also believe this?
is there any deviation in original Bible? (the Bible at time of prophet)
is there any deviation in original Koran?(the Koran at time of prophet)
such beliefs are true or deviation?:
God cannot look on sin, neither can there be sin in heaven.
Sin causes death.
Death entered the world because of Adam & Eve, who exercised their right to chose, & chose to sin.
Mankind has chosen to sin ever since.
There is only one way that sin could be neutralized; if a sinless eternal being gave himself up to death. So God came to earth in the person of Jesus & paid the price, so that all who believe are free from sin & death.
Islam believes there is no savior unless the person's good deeds and prophets only can have some help to God forgive some shortcoming of true believers.
Islam believes God is not human nor material and created all materials.
does Christians believe God is a human?

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    Jun 4 2011: "is there any connection between two beliefs?"
    Yes. The Quran is a spin-off from the Bible, further altered by Mohammad.

    "Christians worship Jesus Christ as God our creator."
    Protestant and Catholic Christians (i.e. most people in the US), yes, but not all flavors of Christians. Most other flavors worship him as the son of God, rather than God himself in a human form.

    "Quran validate the Bible to some extent does the Bible validate the Quran?"
    Other than the basic parts they both share (such as Genesis and the story of Abraham), no. The Quran is "Bible + Something else", in the same way that the Bible is actually "The Torah + something else".

    "are the Muslim God & the Christian God are the same?"
    They have the same base, yes. But are they the same God? Hmm... maybe... if God has changed his mind on a lot of questions between the Bible and the Quran, which would make him fallible, which would contradict both the Bible and Quran.

    "does Christians believe God is a human?"
    Once upon a time, they did. Today, most Christians don't believe this.

    "Islams says extinction of human existed before Adam&Eve. does Some Christians also believe this?"
    You mean there were humans before Adam & Eve, but they went extinct? No Christian believes this.

    "Death entered the world because of Adam & Eve, who exercised their right to chose, & chose to sin."
    Interesting way to put it... Christians believe that they didn't know good and evil, and they chose to know it. God punished them for this sin (which because of lack of knowledge they didn't know was a sin), and blame the rest of humanity for it (even though they had no say in the matter).

    "Mankind has chosen to sin ever since."
    Allegedly, man kind inherited the knowledge of good & evil, which is inherently a sin, so yeah... one of the many paradoxes... by knowing good from evil, you're already evil.

    "so that all who believe are free from sin & death."
    If this was true, I wonder why Jesus' disciples aren't living with us anymore.
    • Jun 4 2011: Hi Vasil. Religions are not conceived by a spiritual source. They are conceived by us and altered by us to suit whatever it is we believe in. You don't have to take my word for it; just read the correspondence attached to this debate.
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        Jun 5 2011: I know this full well... but I decided to play by S.R.'s rules, and assume God exists in some form (just not exactly as described in the Quran or Bible). We both know the concept of the Abraham God is so flawed that it defeats itself, so we can grant everything he wants, just as long as he can rationalize the ambiguities (which we know exist because holy books are man made).
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          Jun 11 2011: when looking at other religions, Judaism, Chrisanity and Islam are the most related. each of their holy books focus on a connection by the worship of God

          when looking at each other having different gods then that's a bit misleading, the reason why because for Allah it just means God in Arabic and for God, the name come from the English language, in many different countries God is named depending on the language you refer to him, but if that's not the case then his real name would be Deus which is in Latin or Yahweh which is in Hebrew, the only difference between them is a language barrier

          when looking at there personalities a bit confusing, for the founders of the religions like Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed they are related as prophets from god to spread to idea of god and his commands because of some misinformation of him liked Abraham stating he was a Jealous God or Jesus stating he was a loving god
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        Jun 11 2011: The jealous vs. loving is actually one of the few instances where I don't see a contradiction in that God. Just as humans can love someone and be jealous of them when they stray to others.

        The only problem is that this characteristic only makes sense if other gods exist. If there is only one God, there's no one to be jealous of.

        People who have read/seen "History of God" by Karen Armstrong* will know this, but believers relate to this characteristic without taking it to its logical conclusion that while God may be jealous, he must have no reason to be if he was the only one.

        *
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbCSKY9ASlk
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          Jun 11 2011: thats the reson i am a bit confused because it does stated in the bible in text i think its chapter exodus or genus but its a possibility that its just a writer misinterpreting it because in that time their was a bunch of polytheistic religions but what i don't know is why not just state that there is no such gods and their is only one god?
    • Jun 11 2011: Dear Vasil Rangelov,
      thanks for your replies.

      "Yes. The Quran is a spin-off from the Bible, further altered by Mohammad."
      he was uneducated and did not write any thing anything in his life. he at age of 40 started saying some amazing sayings (revelation).

      "Protestant and Catholic Christians (i.e. most people in the US), yes, but not all flavors of Christians. Most other flavors worship him as the son of God, rather than God himself in a human form."
      in Islamic view both are false. God has no son and prophet is different of God.

      "if God has changed his mind on a lot of questions between the Bible and the Quran, which would make him fallible, which would contradict both the Bible and Quran."
      God has absolute knowledge and power and never do mistake and never change mind.
      please consider possibility of deviation in holy books.

      "Once upon a time, they did. Today, most Christians don't believe this."
      so Christianity is changing over time?
      so how some one can be sure this religion is still true and original and accepted by God?

      Dear Vasil,
      thanks.
      really i did not know that Christians know Abraham God is so flawed that it defeats itself.
      before I thought Christians really think God was a human that was walking on water and so on.
      thanks.
      now I know Christians better.

      "You mean there were humans before Adam & Eve, but they went extinct?"
      yes

      knowledge of good and evil is not as sin. why sin? wonder. it is knowledge! and knowledge is very good.

      "because holy books are man made"
      original holy books not.
      but today holy books yes (at least partially) unless Koran.
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        Jun 11 2011: "he was uneducated and did not write any thing anything in his life. he at age of 40 started saying some amazing sayings (revelation)."
        Still... it was he who had the revelation that happened to be a very close to the Bible kind of revelation. So it's still the Bible with alterations from Mohammad.

        "God has absolute knowledge and power and never do mistake and never change mind.
        please consider possibility of deviation in holy books."
        What does that suppose to mean? There are for a fact deviations in holy books... but the existence of those deviations can be explained in one of three ways:
        1. God, as described in any holy book, does not exist and all holy books are man made, and some men have different views on certain issues.
        2. God exists, and all holy books are his word, but he has changed his mind over time on some issues.
        3. God exists, and only one of the holy books is correct, because God doesn't change his mind on any issues.

        The position of any atheist is option 1.

        Option 2 is demonstrably false, because all holy books claim that God does not make errors, and therefore does not change his mind.

        And if you go with option 3, there's no way to show which holy book is the right one. Jews might say it's their book, because it's the earliest, and everyone else just twisted God's message to their own agenda, which to me personally makes sense (except their book was also conceived in this way, but... details). Christians might say that because Jesus was the son of God, he was a living person who knew first hand what he was talking about, so his word is the right one if in conflict with the old testament, which also makes sense if Jesus was indeed the son of God. And you might say not only that Jesus was not the son of God, but that all prophets before Mohammad, while being acknowledged as prophets, did not received/communicated the message properly, and somehow only Mohammad was an exception to this. There's no evidence for any of it, which is why I go to 1.
        • Jun 12 2011: if we consider the original versions of holy books yes they are from one God and no conflict. they all validate each other.

          "can be explained in one of three ways:"
          by deviation I mean changes done by evil people in text of holy books in order to control people.
          if we consider the original versions of holy books (what exactly prophet said that maybe different of what we today have) they are still have differences while have no conflict. actually their difference is completing. changing while no conflict. this can be in two way:
          1- God changed mind
          2- God developed the book over time (change with no conflict to past books) based on new context of human life.
          it is like one book written for different level of ages. does it mean writer changed mind? no. it means writer wrote for different ages.
          holey books are like that. people think/tech/knowledge/context change. not mind of God.
          so better to add a 4th way:
          4. God exists, and all of the holy books is correct, because God changed books based on change of human.

          "The position of any atheist is option 1."
          I think they do not know Koran well.

          please distinguish the original book and the book available today after thousands of years. they are not necessarily the same. only today Koran is exact the same as what prophet said. (by enough historical and rational proof)
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        Jun 11 2011: "so Christianity is changing over time?
        so how some one can be sure this religion is still true and original and accepted by God?"
        They're taught to believe that what they're being thought is how it always was. That what their pastor says is the original message of the religion. So when he says that God is outside of time and space, they think that's how God was always perceived... which is false. God was initially perceived as living in the heavens i.e. everything above Earth's atmosphere (the evidence is in the Bible - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."). In time before space exploration, this made sense. Shortly after the first space explorations and the shift to the heliocentric model, it was said he's outside of the universe. And now with the multi-verse hypothesis, they say God is outside of space and time (i.e. not in any of those other universes, should they turn out to exist). If one day we prove the 11 dimensions with a test rather than a math equation, and specify the properties of those dimensions, they'll say that God is in another dimension.

        God is always just around the corner of what is proven, and shifts as soon as we realize there's no God there.

        A large percentage of the Christian population hasn't read the Bible, and a good percentage of those who do turn atheist because they realize the nonsense of it. The rest turn into creationists and pastors. I'm willing to bet that this is also true for the larger part of the Muslim population, especially in countries with secular governments like Turkey.

        "knowledge of good and evil is not as sin. why sin? wonder. it is knowledge! and knowledge is very good."
        How does the story of Adam & Eve look in the Koran? Were they and their descendants not punished for disobeying God by acquiring knowledge of good & evil through the fruit?
        • Jun 12 2011: agreed
          also about Muslims large part of them do not read and do not know Koran (people) or interpret Koran in their benefit or censor parts are against them (governments) in all countries.

          "How does the story of Adam & Eve look in the Koran? "
          God created Adam and Eve and sent them in a garden (not paradise) and told do not near that tree. then Satan cheated them and they neared that tree and so God said them go out and go down to earth until a certain day while some of you are enemy of some other.
          and did not said it was a sin. sin is by religion. before Adam come earth no religion existed.
          and did not say humans should punish for Adam. but said:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:15
          (no one will be punished for sin of other)

          verses about Adam (آدم):
          http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%A2%D8%AF%D9%85

          "Were they and their descendants not punished for disobeying God by acquiring knowledge of good & evil through the fruit?"
          NO.
          only Adam went out from nearing to a tree.
          please not about trees in heaven:
          those trees have all kind of fruit based on Intend of who want to eat from that tree. so it is tree of all fruits.
          but as I know it was not for acquiring any kind of knowledge.
          God himself learned all the knowledge of every thing to Adam:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:31
          this knowledge is not related to that banned tree.
          that knowledge was transferred from each prophet to next successor (selected by God) and today this knowledge is with 12th Imam:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi

          totally God had been decided to send Adam to earth before send Adam and Eve to that garden.
          when Adam came out of garden and came to earth was very sad and was crying very long time and God did not speak him any more until an angel came to earth and Adam asked it:
          what God said about me?
          angel: God said to us:
          "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority"
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:30
          Adam became very happy and knew it was Intend of God not sin
        • Jul 15 2011: Vasil - I think most Christians also believe that God dwells inside them through the holy spirit, and also in the omnipresence of the world.

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