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Islam beliefs & Christianity beliefs. fiction? deviation? true?
this topic is not related to existing or proving God and assumed God exist.
existing God is discussed in other topics like:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/2142/why_our_universe_has_laws_of_p.html
http://www.ted.com/conversations/1599/who_is_god.html
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3023/is_more_than_one_god_possible.html
http://www.ted.com/conversations/923/proving_god.html
is there any connection between two beliefs?
Christians worship Jesus Christ as God our creator.
Quran validate the Bible to some extent
does the Bible validate the Quran?
are the Muslim God & the Christian God are the same?
Islams says extinction of human existed before Adam&Eve.
does Some Christians also believe this?
is there any deviation in original Bible? (the Bible at time of prophet)
is there any deviation in original Koran?(the Koran at time of prophet)
such beliefs are true or deviation?:
God cannot look on sin, neither can there be sin in heaven.
Sin causes death.
Death entered the world because of Adam & Eve, who exercised their right to chose, & chose to sin.
Mankind has chosen to sin ever since.
There is only one way that sin could be neutralized; if a sinless eternal being gave himself up to death. So God came to earth in the person of Jesus & paid the price, so that all who believe are free from sin & death.
Islam believes there is no savior unless the person's good deeds and prophets only can have some help to God forgive some shortcoming of true believers.
Islam believes God is not human nor material and created all materials.
does Christians believe God is a human?
Christopher Hampson
From what I understand, Islam does take some inspiration and source material from Christianity, but it represents a departure from Jesus' Gospel such that it represents a profoundly different religion. Jesus as portrayed by the apostles in the New Testament is very clear that he has come to fulfill Judaism, and I've always thought that Muhammad did not make the same claim relative to Jesus with anything like the same strength.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
about Random mutation has it observed yet?
I think it is near 300 years that research of evolution continues.
I agree natural selection. but I disagree Random mutation. I mean Random mutation that lead to transform of a specie to another specie.. for example a dog transform to wolf.
has such case observed yet?
Vasil Rangelov 50+
Yes. The Quran is a spin-off from the Bible, further altered by Mohammad.
"Christians worship Jesus Christ as God our creator."
Protestant and Catholic Christians (i.e. most people in the US), yes, but not all flavors of Christians. Most other flavors worship him as the son of God, rather than God himself in a human form.
"Quran validate the Bible to some extent does the Bible validate the Quran?"
Other than the basic parts they both share (such as Genesis and the story of Abraham), no. The Quran is "Bible + Something else", in the same way that the Bible is actually "The Torah + something else".
"are the Muslim God & the Christian God are the same?"
They have the same base, yes. But are they the same God? Hmm... maybe... if God has changed his mind on a lot of questions between the Bible and the Quran, which would make him fallible, which would contradict both the Bible and Quran.
"does Christians believe God is a human?"
Once upon a time, they did. Today, most Christians don't believe this.
"Islams says extinction of human existed before Adam&Eve. does Some Christians also believe this?"
You mean there were humans before Adam & Eve, but they went extinct? No Christian believes this.
"Death entered the world because of Adam & Eve, who exercised their right to chose, & chose to sin."
Interesting way to put it... Christians believe that they didn't know good and evil, and they chose to know it. God punished them for this sin (which because of lack of knowledge they didn't know was a sin), and blame the rest of humanity for it (even though they had no say in the matter).
"Mankind has chosen to sin ever since."
Allegedly, man kind inherited the knowledge of good & evil, which is inherently a sin, so yeah... one of the many paradoxes... by knowing good from evil, you're already evil.
"so that all who believe are free from sin & death."
If this was true, I wonder why Jesus' disciples aren't living with us anymore.
Derek Payne
Vasil Rangelov 50+
Brandon Cavalho
when looking at each other having different gods then that's a bit misleading, the reason why because for Allah it just means God in Arabic and for God, the name come from the English language, in many different countries God is named depending on the language you refer to him, but if that's not the case then his real name would be Deus which is in Latin or Yahweh which is in Hebrew, the only difference between them is a language barrier
when looking at there personalities a bit confusing, for the founders of the religions like Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed they are related as prophets from god to spread to idea of god and his commands because of some misinformation of him liked Abraham stating he was a Jealous God or Jesus stating he was a loving god
Vasil Rangelov 50+
The only problem is that this characteristic only makes sense if other gods exist. If there is only one God, there's no one to be jealous of.
People who have read/seen "History of God" by Karen Armstrong* will know this, but believers relate to this characteristic without taking it to its logical conclusion that while God may be jealous, he must have no reason to be if he was the only one.
*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbCSKY9ASlk
Brandon Cavalho
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
thanks for your replies.
"Yes. The Quran is a spin-off from the Bible, further altered by Mohammad."
he was uneducated and did not write any thing anything in his life. he at age of 40 started saying some amazing sayings (revelation).
"Protestant and Catholic Christians (i.e. most people in the US), yes, but not all flavors of Christians. Most other flavors worship him as the son of God, rather than God himself in a human form."
in Islamic view both are false. God has no son and prophet is different of God.
"if God has changed his mind on a lot of questions between the Bible and the Quran, which would make him fallible, which would contradict both the Bible and Quran."
God has absolute knowledge and power and never do mistake and never change mind.
please consider possibility of deviation in holy books.
"Once upon a time, they did. Today, most Christians don't believe this."
so Christianity is changing over time?
so how some one can be sure this religion is still true and original and accepted by God?
Dear Vasil,
thanks.
really i did not know that Christians know Abraham God is so flawed that it defeats itself.
before I thought Christians really think God was a human that was walking on water and so on.
thanks.
now I know Christians better.
"You mean there were humans before Adam & Eve, but they went extinct?"
yes
knowledge of good and evil is not as sin. why sin? wonder. it is knowledge! and knowledge is very good.
"because holy books are man made"
original holy books not.
but today holy books yes (at least partially) unless Koran.
Vasil Rangelov 50+
Still... it was he who had the revelation that happened to be a very close to the Bible kind of revelation. So it's still the Bible with alterations from Mohammad.
"God has absolute knowledge and power and never do mistake and never change mind.
please consider possibility of deviation in holy books."
What does that suppose to mean? There are for a fact deviations in holy books... but the existence of those deviations can be explained in one of three ways:
1. God, as described in any holy book, does not exist and all holy books are man made, and some men have different views on certain issues.
2. God exists, and all holy books are his word, but he has changed his mind over time on some issues.
3. God exists, and only one of the holy books is correct, because God doesn't change his mind on any issues.
The position of any atheist is option 1.
Option 2 is demonstrably false, because all holy books claim that God does not make errors, and therefore does not change his mind.
And if you go with option 3, there's no way to show which holy book is the right one. Jews might say it's their book, because it's the earliest, and everyone else just twisted God's message to their own agenda, which to me personally makes sense (except their book was also conceived in this way, but... details). Christians might say that because Jesus was the son of God, he was a living person who knew first hand what he was talking about, so his word is the right one if in conflict with the old testament, which also makes sense if Jesus was indeed the son of God. And you might say not only that Jesus was not the son of God, but that all prophets before Mohammad, while being acknowledged as prophets, did not received/communicated the message properly, and somehow only Mohammad was an exception to this. There's no evidence for any of it, which is why I go to 1.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"can be explained in one of three ways:"
by deviation I mean changes done by evil people in text of holy books in order to control people.
if we consider the original versions of holy books (what exactly prophet said that maybe different of what we today have) they are still have differences while have no conflict. actually their difference is completing. changing while no conflict. this can be in two way:
1- God changed mind
2- God developed the book over time (change with no conflict to past books) based on new context of human life.
it is like one book written for different level of ages. does it mean writer changed mind? no. it means writer wrote for different ages.
holey books are like that. people think/tech/knowledge/context change. not mind of God.
so better to add a 4th way:
4. God exists, and all of the holy books is correct, because God changed books based on change of human.
"The position of any atheist is option 1."
I think they do not know Koran well.
please distinguish the original book and the book available today after thousands of years. they are not necessarily the same. only today Koran is exact the same as what prophet said. (by enough historical and rational proof)
Vasil Rangelov 50+
so how some one can be sure this religion is still true and original and accepted by God?"
They're taught to believe that what they're being thought is how it always was. That what their pastor says is the original message of the religion. So when he says that God is outside of time and space, they think that's how God was always perceived... which is false. God was initially perceived as living in the heavens i.e. everything above Earth's atmosphere (the evidence is in the Bible - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."). In time before space exploration, this made sense. Shortly after the first space explorations and the shift to the heliocentric model, it was said he's outside of the universe. And now with the multi-verse hypothesis, they say God is outside of space and time (i.e. not in any of those other universes, should they turn out to exist). If one day we prove the 11 dimensions with a test rather than a math equation, and specify the properties of those dimensions, they'll say that God is in another dimension.
God is always just around the corner of what is proven, and shifts as soon as we realize there's no God there.
A large percentage of the Christian population hasn't read the Bible, and a good percentage of those who do turn atheist because they realize the nonsense of it. The rest turn into creationists and pastors. I'm willing to bet that this is also true for the larger part of the Muslim population, especially in countries with secular governments like Turkey.
"knowledge of good and evil is not as sin. why sin? wonder. it is knowledge! and knowledge is very good."
How does the story of Adam & Eve look in the Koran? Were they and their descendants not punished for disobeying God by acquiring knowledge of good & evil through the fruit?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
also about Muslims large part of them do not read and do not know Koran (people) or interpret Koran in their benefit or censor parts are against them (governments) in all countries.
"How does the story of Adam & Eve look in the Koran? "
God created Adam and Eve and sent them in a garden (not paradise) and told do not near that tree. then Satan cheated them and they neared that tree and so God said them go out and go down to earth until a certain day while some of you are enemy of some other.
and did not said it was a sin. sin is by religion. before Adam come earth no religion existed.
and did not say humans should punish for Adam. but said:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:15
(no one will be punished for sin of other)
verses about Adam (آدم):
http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%A2%D8%AF%D9%85
"Were they and their descendants not punished for disobeying God by acquiring knowledge of good & evil through the fruit?"
NO.
only Adam went out from nearing to a tree.
please not about trees in heaven:
those trees have all kind of fruit based on Intend of who want to eat from that tree. so it is tree of all fruits.
but as I know it was not for acquiring any kind of knowledge.
God himself learned all the knowledge of every thing to Adam:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:31
this knowledge is not related to that banned tree.
that knowledge was transferred from each prophet to next successor (selected by God) and today this knowledge is with 12th Imam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi
totally God had been decided to send Adam to earth before send Adam and Eve to that garden.
when Adam came out of garden and came to earth was very sad and was crying very long time and God did not speak him any more until an angel came to earth and Adam asked it:
what God said about me?
angel: God said to us:
"Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority"
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:30
Adam became very happy and knew it was Intend of God not sin
Elam Waltzing
dingle mcringleberry
This and thousands of other loopholes in the bible lead me to the conclusion that the bible is a compilation of utter crap.
A common argument I encounter: "The bible is just a big metaphor for what Christianity is, we don't actually believe in that."
Well if the bible was never written, Christianity would have never been conceived. Religion started out as a ridiculous concept, and over the years those who wish to maintain faith due to personal attachment broke these concepts down to ideas and principles which are more easily justifiable.
EDIT: This may not belong in this discussion, didn't look over the guidelines very thoroughly.
Peter Law 30+
Nuts ! The thief on the cross had no idea about the Holy Spirit, he just trusted Jesus. It's not how you live that's essential, it's how you die. It usually comes unexpected though, so the smart move is to get it sorted asap.
:-)
dingle mcringleberry
That the bible is in fact nonsense?
It's how I die? What if I am drugged, and I then kill somebody, then kill myself?
Your interpretation of theism is just another one of millions that create a massive hypocritical web.
Peter Law 30+
1) The bible is 100% correct.
2) If you die trusting in Christ you will go to be with him.
3) If you don't, you wont.
Simple huh!
:-)
dingle mcringleberry
What if somebody is raised on an isolated island and is taught that god is wrong, jesus is wrong, and all religion is wrong.
And then they die.
They have done nothing wrong, but according to the bible they have.
DO they deserve to suffer for ETERNITY?
Peter Law 30+
I see you bill yourself as an Atheist . Why are you so worried about someone who doesn't exist ?
If you are on an isolated island who is teaching you about religion being wrong? Do you have to believe them ?
The bible tells us that the wonders of nature testify to a Creator God and that if we don't recognise that then we are being deliberately ignorant. If we insist on this path then we are without excuse, & will be judged accordingly. If however we recognise that there must be a creator, and make every effort to contact him, then this will be taken into account.
From what I know of God, He will be fair & merciful; no worries.
:-)
dingle mcringleberry
Then you say that god will be merciful and fair.
Well the BIBLE, tells me that I am in fact sentenced to eternity in hell.
That is not fair.
Worried? I'm not worried about an entity that doesn't exist, im in fact optimistic. Because theism is on a downwards slope, and statistics tell us that once theism is eliminated from society, we will flourish.
Do I have to believe them? I can't believe this.
I have no standard to compare my teachings to. yes I will believe them.
Peter Law 30+
Only you can send yourself to hell. You have access to all the facts, now it is your choice.
Man has never flourished under Atheism before; well maybe next time. What statistics ?
Were you brought up Roman Catholic ? Many who were think like you.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfh3lj_darwin-evolution-vs-id-intelligent-design-creationism-4-4_tech
:-)
Rasheed Gibril
and allah himself promised to guard the message of islam and the quran:
"We have without doubt, send down the message; and We will assuredly guard it(from corruption)." The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 15, Verse 9
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
thanks
Dan Willis
Comment deleted
Comment deleted
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/2:257
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/29:2
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/29:69
Derek Payne
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I agree you.
negative attributes help us know positive attributes.
but why forget?
what about risk of Hell?
if I went to Hell then can you escape me?
our body will die.
but our soul never die and we will have new body for Hell or Heaven.
"Religion hasn't done a very good job up till now, thank goodness the tide is turning!"
I do not know well about other religions today.
I know each religion was for context of its own time and not usable for any time.
each time a religion became out dated God send new updated religion.
and today the most updated religion is Islam and God did not send any more religion after islam and this means that for our time Islam is usable.
I know Islam has solved problems well and had done its job well.
Tim blackburn 30+
Sargis B.
Ehis Odijie 10+
Salim Solaiman 50+
Ehis Odijie 10+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
its creator.
God created all thing unless himself.
Salim Solaiman 50+
My question is irrelevant?
Did my question asked whether creator of impurity was part of impurity or not ?
So who is the one who created impurity not being part of it ?
Ehis Odijie 10+
Dan Willis
Ed Schulte 50+
These are simple words pointing to that which IS. and is beyond Classification / groupings / organizations / definitions etc etc. AND that greatest confuser ..."Believing". Concepts merely muddy the water and add Intellectual confusion (naff/ego) rather then light upon those words emanated from high Levels of Consciousness.
Came to post this at the "Can Poetry" thread but it fits here as well ......Rumi's "Only Breath" a Brilliant summary of "I AM"
Only Breath
Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu
Buddhist, sufi, or zen. Not any religion
or cultural system. I am not from the East
or the West, not out of the ocean or up
from the ground, not natural or ethereal, not
composed of elements at all. I do not exist,
am not an entity in this world or in the next,
did not descend from Adam and Eve or any
origin story. My place is placeless, a trace
of the traceless. Neither body or soul.
I belong to the beloved, have seen the two
worlds as one and that one call to and know,
first, last, outer, inner, only that
breath breathing human being.
From Essential Rumi
by Coleman Barks
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
breath is the count down of death.
each breath is one pace nearer to death.
Comment deleted
Derek Payne
Peter Law 30+
Hopefully any BIOLOGISTS out there will keep me right.
As I understand it the cells in our bodies are being constantly renewed; at the rate of about 10,000/sec. The result of this is that our whole body gets replaced within 10yrs or so. This means that in material terms we are all less than 11yrs old. This looks like a system that was originally designed to continue for ever, but of course we grow old. Why ? I presume there is a fault in the mechanism. Is this right guys ?
:-)
Kristofer Björnson 10+
I have to say that to fully embrace evolution theory is a quite humbling experience, not so much the egoistic rejection of a creator as it often is portrayed as.
Derek Payne
Kristofer Björnson 10+
Derek Payne
Kristofer Björnson 10+
Peter Law 30+
@ Derek
"It is these cell changes that allow this to happen, my question is; how do these cells get their information, the information about when and what to mutate into?"
That's the million dollar question. Many think it just doesn't happen, others put their faith in random mutation + natural selection.
Derek Payne
Derek Payne
Derek Payne
Peter Law 30+
" .......the bible is a load of rubbish, because it goes against the workings of evolution."
I totally agree, I wish some of my Christian friends could get this right
"We all know that the evidence is firmly with evolution"
Not really, I don't see the evidence for random mutation/natural selection evolving anything. Maybe you could enlighten me ?
:-)
Derek Payne
Peter Law 30+
Well I'm guessing you know my (biblical) hypothesis. (Folks on this site like to use the correct words). All 'types' of creatures were created at once fully functional. A type would be originally creatures that could mate & produce fertile offspring. Within each type was the coding for lots of variation to help the creature adapt to it's environment. So we have natural selection, which over millennia have produced tremendous variety. However we have to operate within the code that was originally written into the dna, as mutations have yet to show the ability to write new code.
When it comes right down to it, the actual empirical science backs biogenesis; ie life only comes from life. There is zero evidence that non-living matter can produce life. Even Dawkins concedes this & calls on panspermia, which of course leaves us with the same problem, but on another planet.
I'm not sure that I understand your hypothesis, but I understand it requires a mind. How on earth do we get a mind by natural processes ? I guess you accept evolution in general, but see the problem with mutation/selection, and are trying to address this with a theory of mind. That's commendable, but to build on evolution I would suggest, is shaky ground.
:-)
Derek Payne
Peter Law 30+
"Venter took the genome of the bacterium Mycoplasma mycoides and transplanted it into the bacterium Mycoplasma capricolum. After multiple rounds of selection, the M. carpricolum lost its own genome and now contained only the genome of M. mycoides. Further testing confirmed that the M. carpricolum had become the donor strain of M. mycoides. This was heralded as the “creation of a synthetic lifeform” or “first new form of artificial life” giving the impression that Venter had created life in the lab." http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/semi-homemade-life
To me it seems he took genome of one bacteria, put it in another bacteria, & produced a third type of bacteria. So he starts with living material; no doubt useful & very clever, but hardly life from non-life. Let's assume he made bacteria from dirt, what does that show. That intelligence can produce life; right.
I think where we differ is on what is impossible. To me empirical science proves evolution is impossible, to you it proves god is impossible.
:-)
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Peter Law 30+
When history has run it's course, then there will be a new universe where we will be given perfect bodies & live forever with God; if we go for option 1.
That seems to be the bible message. Sounds good to me, but I seem to be in the minority here.
:-)
Kristofer Björnson 10+
If you are interested in an explanation of atheism from the point of view from someone who really wanted to be a christian, watch this documentary http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/why-i-am-no-longer-a-christian/ .
It's not at all important to me that anyone loses their own faith. I only hope to communicate that all atheists not are so because they have a problem with the idea of gods authority.
Regarding Muhammads note about sin causing death spiritually, I think there is much wisdom in these words. But I would rather like to frame it in more concrete words such as; egoism, greed, hate, ..., leads to unsatisfaction, frustration, anger, ... .
Derek Payne
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"how was God created?"
any creature has a creator.
even Big Bang has a creator.
possibly a creator itself has other creator.
so we have a chain of creators.
so there is two possible situation:
1- there exist an unlimited chain of causes (creators)
2- finally there is a creator with no creator.
which you pick?
philosophers say the 1 is impossible rationally and makes paradox for example paradox with concept of time.
if you pick 1 can you prove it is possible rationally?
if you pick 2 then what is the name that final cause?
also sprite can have growth or decline in levels of nearing (not physical, but knowing and obeying) or even sprite of human can die.
when human is born his heart (sprite, think, soul, beliefs) is white. each sin makes a black point on heart.
step by step heart becomes totally black. that heart is dead heart.
dead heart can not hear (understand and accept) truth like a deaf human does not hear sound.
one drug of dead heart is reading holy books like Koran.
it makes heart white again.
Comment deleted
Kristofer Björnson 10+
(Sorry, I'm just kidding. I get your point. Maybe I'm a Buddhist then =D)
And hey, maybe you should spread Buddhism here. Everyone is spreading every other religion, so why not Buddhism too! :D
I think the religious dialouges can get even more interesting if more faith systems are compared with each other. I started a thread[1] to find out what opinions and values we all have in common in this diverse set of people. It would be very interesting if you and everyone else would make a contribution there.
[1] http://www.ted.com/conversations/3058/finding_common_ground_what_do.html
Peter Law 30+
"But part by part the foundation I built my hopes upon seemed to fall apart."
Watched most of the vid. skipped over some of the more predictable stuff.
I think this is why Jesus preferred fishermen to intellectuals, He needs a degree of childlike trust. I didn't get 'saved' until I was 35, by which time I had learned that the intellectuals didn't really have all the answers. So much of our beliefs hinge on the last good book we read.
Sorry you lost your faith; maybe the wrong foundation ?
:-)
Kristofer Björnson 10+
The foundation I built it upon was that I realy liked the concepts such as honesty, surrendering the ego to gods will, compassion, and so forth, which I tightly connected with my faith. But I think the value I placed in many of these concepts also was what undermined my faith. I fully agree with you that "intellectuals" not has all the answers, but I think it is a common missconception that scientists, philosophers, and so forth claims to have all the answers. The difference I see between an "intellectual" approach to understanding the world and a fatih based approach is with what honesty questions are tackled. With faith, things that contradicts ones presuppositions about how things works tends to be neglected, while with an intellectualy honest approach one allways have to be willing to be proven wrong.
In my opinion, many religions seems to be a great force for taking people from an egocentric morality, to a compassionate morality. But for further moral development, religion often seems to be a hurdle.
P.S. I am sometimes sorry for myself having lost it too. It is so much more comforting to be able to believe in someone having a plan with my life.
Peter Law 30+
"Isn't it strange how our species will pick out that which goes along with what they believe and not what is." Agreed; but we are both of this species.
"Why do we have to prove that life came from non-life, we are here after all? "
Agreed; but the scientific conclusion, given the law of biogenesis; should be that we came from life. To conclude otherwise is to move outside science & into faith.
God claims to be spirit. Time only has effect on material things; ie atoms with mass. God has none of these, so he is eternal. Without beginning or end; as he is not within time. If he has no beginning, then he has always existed. That is as far as modern science can take it.
The majority of the scientists up until recently believed in a god, & it was no barrier to thought; what's different ?
Evolution told us that most dna was junk left over; we are now finding that it has purpose. Just as well we looked. Dinosaur bones with blood cells still intact have the scientists wondering how it survived 65 million years. Empirical science would say this is impossible . Because they believe the current extinction story (the most recent of many) they cannot entertain the idea that it may not be that old.
Christian scientists can consider both the material and the spiritual; mainline modern scientists are restricted to the material. Who has one hand tied behind their back ?
ps. Flat earth & cheese moon are not part of any religion I have encountered.
:-)
Derek Payne
Peter Law 30+
How does our good & evil emotions substantiate evolution ? Surely this cosmic war is described perfectly in the bible. How would this evolve by natural selection, or any other way ?
I cannot prove to you that God has always been around; you can't prove the Big Bang; we're square.
How can the design in nature be designed by mankind, when by your reckoning, man wasn't around ?
I thought we were being scientific.
:-)
Derek Payne
Peter Law 30+
"try to stick to the facts that I am aware of,and not what I am told or what I read." How does one become aware of facts but by hearing & reading ?
Dino Blood (Mary Schweitzer)
National Geographic certainly doesn't think the controversy is over. Here is an article from last year.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/05/090501-oldest-dinosaur-proteins.html
I think this was the original 60-minutes interview.
http://www.blinkx.com/watch-video/fresh-dinosaur-soft-tissues/9RkFtdf6bvYtchX2T6gi9A
There is no mention of religion anywhere. Mary is totally convinced that her specimens are millions of years old. If she was a creationist of any type she would certainly have cast doubt on the age.
Isn't the internet wonderful.
"before mankind nature was in charge and always will be. The human species have evolved from nature and now take a major role in that evolving." "I do not deny there is a design in nature. A design goes along way to convincing me that there must be a sort of destiny for mankind, a destiny designed for the benefit of mankind,"
You are talking in riddles Derek. Mankind is part of nature, nature has evolved, nature designed itself ?
Where are the facts; what aspect of nature does the designing ? How did that aspect come into existance in the first place ?
:-)
Derek Payne
Peter Law 30+
"Mary's place of work was like a religeous shrine, she was obsessed to the point of substituting real for fantasy"
Specifics please, I see no shrine. All that is around is lab equipment. It does seem that she is a Christian, & had one plaque with a bible verse, but she is an ardent evolutionist . Her boss is Jack Horner who is an eminent paleontologist , & he seems quite happy to put his reputation on the line.
The Paleo Group thought enough of the idea to Carbon Date the materials.
".....various carbon dating labs. Then the bones were dated by the Accelerated Mass Spectrometry method. These tests run on numerous samples have confirmed that those dinosaur bones are less than 50,000 years old - not 65 million years old."
http://www.dinosaurc14ages.com/dinoblood.htm
I think you are all too ready to dismiss facts that don't agree with your theory. There is an anomaly here that honest folks are trying to work out, & that should be encouraged.
:-)
Derek Payne
Derek Payne
Peter Law 30+
[Dinosaur Blood Cells?
The hints of hemoglobin remain speculative and are not covered in the new, peer-reviewed study, which appears in today's issue of the journal Science.
Some scientists suspect the hemoglobin is a contaminant.
If it's not a contaminant, "it is much bigger news than [the confirmed discoveries of blood vessels and other connective tissues in] this paper," said Pavel Pevzner, a computational biologist at the University of California, San Diego, who was not involved in the new research.]
This from the National Geographic link above.
So the blood cells are not confirmed, only "Blood Vessels and other Connective Tissue". Although you could infer the possibility by doubting "some scientists" as there must have been hemoglobin present to have been considered a contaminant ?
Check it out yourself, I am pressed for time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97jYngUaepA
There does seem to be a flurry of interest in C14 in general. It seems to be present in just about everything with a carbon content. Conventional wisdom would have it that with a half-life of 5730yrs it should be totally undetectable after 100Kyrs or so. Diamonds is particularly interesting, as they should be immune to all the usual suspected sources. As usual there are two sides & both have possibilities.
"my fact based theory of evolution? Ability= Evolution."
Well I guess if the scientists got the timeline wrong with the dinosaur extinction, then maybe they got evolution wrong as well.
I strongly suspect that stories of Dragons are based on true accounts of man's interaction with the remnants of the dinosaurs. As scientists had long discounted stories of dragons, they had to come up with another story when they started to be dug up; Dinosaur was invented, & far from being eliminated 65 million years ago, they survived much later.
http://creation.com/bishop-bells-brass-behemoths
:-)
Derek Payne
Peter Law 30+
:...what purpose did the dinosaur's reign have in God's eternal plans?"
I see no 'reign' of the dinosaurs. They were just created creatures like all the rest. During the 1500yrs before the flood it is recorded that man lived over 900 years; it seems reasonable to assume more favourable climatic conditions caused this and the animals would be long-lived as well. As dinosaurs are reptiles, and reptiles continue to grow throughout their lives, it makes sense to assume that the reptiles would attain great size. After the flood we would have had an ice age; warm seas + cold land mass = lots of snow. This would have pruned the species count somewhat, and any large ones left would be hunted by man.
This is a reasonable hypothesis if you accept the bible at face value; if however you go for the millions of years of evolution, then another narrative is necessary. I don't really understand the requirement for mass extinction of the dinosaurs. If I remember correctly, first by indigestion, then by suffocation, and now by meteorite (all in my lifetime). Why can't they just die out like all the others ?
Going away for a couple of weeks on monday, so if I go quiet, it's nothing personal.
:-)
Derek Payne
Peter Law 30+
You have stated in other places that you believe in evolution, so clearly it is relevant. Why should there be any more reason for a dinosaur than there is for a bear. Man is excited by dinosaurs because they are big & exciting. To my way of thinking all creatures are made by god to show his power, & to make life more interesting for us. He succeeded, nature is awesome & points many to the Creator. If it were just random, then there would be no point to it at all.
I don't know if you have come across the video "The Privileged Planet". It is quite good at putting our puny thoughts into perspective.
http://www.blinkx.com/watch-video/full-the-privileged-planet-earth-origin-accident-or-design/kPdFy1OlxN2S6qGy1_zLAA
:-)
Derek Payne
Evolution with mutations; the scenario changes dramatically, evolution is improving the species, not making mistakes. If God is behind these mutations, then he hadn't got it right in the first place and he still hasn't, because life is still evolving and mutating. ( There is proof of this.)
I cannot disprove or prove the existence of God, but a God that consistently makes mistakes, well it takes some believing. We all know what the bears place in nature is; to keep its habitat balanced in a way that preserves the life that lives there, all is finely balanced. Could this be said about the dinosaur or had its presence started to upset the balance that was required all those millions of years ago? They reigned for more than 2 million years, which makes me think their presence was bit more important than that. They had gone along very smoothly doing what nature intended, so what did finally kill them off and why?
Derek Payne
Peter Law 30+
The reason for mutations. God gave us a choice at the beginning, to obey him or not. We chose not and the consequence of that is death. Mutations bring death, that is fairly obvious.
It would be really cool if you could come up with proof that mutations improve the species & evolve us. That would be a first.
Off on the hols; catch you later.
:-)
Derek Payne
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"God gave us a choice at the beginning, to obey him or not"
you mean Adam? or all humans?
it was only for Adam.
but we all have free will in our life.
I disagree our death is the result of deed of Adam.
our dead is our nature. is creation of God. is decisions of God. like why we have hand and eye. why we have eye? at the same time we have death.
why we does not have more eyes? because Adam had disobey?
sin is when a religion exist. before coming Adam to earth no religion existed.
also why we should pay the price of deed of Adam?
any one has its own bill of deeds.
it was the scenario of God for sending human in earth. it was a lesson to us.
Richard Dawson 30+
Oh Thou, who didst Man of baser Earth make,
And even with Paradise didst devise the Snake:
For all the Sins wherewith Man has blackened his face
Man's Forgiveness give--and take!
Omar Khayyam
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
can you copy Persian version?
Peter Law 30+
"How can you know which parts are predictable before you have watched them?"
The section on biblical inaccuracies; I have checked out more of these than I care to remember. Likewise alleged creation problems, Noah's Ark etc. I only had an hour or so.
I came to believe after years of searching when I realised that the evolution hypothesis just cannot work. Folks think that a living cell has the complexity of something like a Space Shuttle (or major city etc). So we are made up of trillions of these, which are all slightly different depending on their position within the body. This universe of cells reproduces other universes and constantly renews itself. It is also capable of moving, breathing, thinking etc. It has 3D colour vision, and can contemplate the wider universe.
Some say this came about over millions of years of trial & error with no intelligent input, even though there is no solid scientific evidence. Sorry; I don't buy it.
It is good to surrender the ego to God; but first you must be convinced that He really does exist. If not then you are doomed to fail. Did Jesus really physically die & resurrect in Jerusalem 2 millennia ago, or not ? Is the bible true ? If these are just fables, then I wouldn't waste my time. It is what is true that really matters, not what we would prefer to be true.
:-)
Kristofer Björnson 10+
I just wanted to point out that the hypothesis that we have two choices, to accept or reject God is an assumption that exists within the framework that assumes Gods existens. And by judging all people by that framework atheists are portrayed as rejecting God as authority for egoistic purposes, when that often isn't the case.
Peter Law 30+
I agree that the majority of Atheists are ordinary Joes with whom a rational discussion is possible. Many, like the guy in the vid, have thought it through & can give rational reasons for their position & I respect that. Let's face it, if one is really an Atheist, then the subject of God should be one of moderate indifference. I don't have time for football, but I would never raise the interest to go on a ban football rally. In fact I would likely stand against any attempt to ban it.
:-)
Derek Payne
Peter Law 30+
I hope that we can compromise in that we can agree to differ, and in the meantime have constructive dialog. I think that there is perhaps a bit of confusion surrounding "religion". Most of religion is formality, dress, pecking-order etc. It encompasses belief in a higher power, certainly, but it has become so wooly recently that I resist classing myself as 'religious'.
When man comes up with a concept, his first instinct is to form a committee; this way the blame get's shared. A lot of religion is the same beast.
So from your point of view, if I may be so bold, religion fulfills an evolutionary function in binding individuals together in a common cause. So they are linked.
My position is somewhat different; no surprise there.
I have two pertinent views. 1) Soup to man evolution is a fallacy. 2) God controlled the contents of the bible.
I believe there is one creator God. He wants us to seek him, find him, and love him. In order for that to be meaningful, he has allowed us options from which to chose. So we have lots of religions to sidetrack us, but if we are honest & logical, the truth can be found. I'm afraid that I would lump evolution in with religion. It seems to me that at every point we have to take the opinion of someone as to what actually occurred, as there is never any repeatable experiment that can show it happening. Again we have a link.
:-)
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Evolution is not a hypothesis.
it is a theory including many hypothesis.
I agree Evolution and accept it as a useful theory for knowing the life and species more and more.
Adam and Eve came to earth near 7000 years ago and are different of species of homo before Adam and Eve.
also I doubt a species can transform to other specie in a random process.
but natural selection is clear true. we can see it.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"before that the world was doing ok. so does it sound a sensible way to think that these two guys are from God?"
human is the only creature of God in material world with free will.
I do not believe sin causes death. it is the belief of some or all today Christians.
I believe sin cases punishment. perhaps in some cases punishment be in form of killing.
about Adam and Eve i do not consider eating of that tree sin. because before Adam and Eve come to earth no religion existed. and before any religion be significant to human, sin has no meaning.
actually I consider it the scenario of God for creating wold and sending human in world.
as God is arrogant and proud selected this scenario.
God selected the attribute of arrogant only for himself and banned it for human to humble people against God be known.
any way the fuel Hell is people and stone and hell needs fuel.
Dan Willis
jcm manuel
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"The Quran seems to be a Syro-Aramaic interpretation of Christianity."
please explain this more.
Ehis Odijie 10+
You must be a comedian to say "the Quran seems to be a Syro-Aramaic interpretation of Christianity".. . I hope you know there is a Syro-Aramaic reading of the Koran....
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Dan Willis
Ehis Odijie 10+
What Jesus meant was no one comes to his father except by obeying his message of LOVE. Even a nonreligious person can be considered a candidate for heaven if he loves his neighbour as himself
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"The bible is exclusive - it does not validate the Koran in any way "
does it include gospel of barnabas?
http://barnabas.net/
can you explain more about "message of LOVE"? does it mean God loves all and all go to Heaven?
"Even a nonreligious person canbe considered a candidate for heaven if he loves his neighbour as himself"
beautiful!
Fatima (peace on her) the daughter of prophet Muhammad (peace on him) said:
"first neighbor, then home"
Sargis B.
Richard Dawson 30+
Not to be confused with the Epsistle of Barnabas, A Hoax with no evidence its existence before the 17th century. Fabricated in the Ottoman Empire because of the dire need to rectify the claim in the Quran that Muhammad was prophesied in the Bible. In fact there is no reference to him, unless you take Jesus's warning of False Prophets.
The Wikipedia references you used to give earlier clearly says so (fabrication no evidence of prior existence), which I pointed out.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
actually all Bibles are Fabricated. and the oldest Bible is written near 100 years (do not know exact) after Jesus. because after Jesus all bibles were collected by church and all destroyed. an until year 170 (please correct me if not exact) had no bible.
if only you accept Gospel of Barnabas existed before start of Islam is enough.
there are some historical evidences showing Gospel of Barnabas existed before start of Islam.
Muslims only say Gospel of Barnabas has minimum conflict and max. match with Koran.
Ehis Odijie 10+
The message is "Love Your Neighbour as yourself" and there is no such thing as 'gospel of barnabas'. Where did you get that from?
The problems we have on earth today are due to lack of Love . . . Jesus said Love your enemies and he proved that several times. . . So, Jesus is Love. The best way to follow Jesus Christ is not simply by declaring him as your saviours and practicing discrimination or any form of hatred. . It is by showing love especially to those who need it . . .
Some Christians know this . . but others are quick to condemn anyone of different ideology . . condemn the gays and people of different faith instead of showing them love and pray for them . . .
Christianity means Christ like . . it’s a religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth . . Jesus only teaching was "Love Your Neighbour as yourself".
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"Where did you get that from?"
I quoted it
"Christianity means Christ like . . it’s a religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth . . Jesus only teaching was "Love Your Neighbour as yourself"."
yes but today the original Bible is not accessible and different partially deviated versions exist.
only this one message?
Peter Law 30+
Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Guilty as charged, it was I who (mis?) informed S. R. Ahmadi that we see Jesus as God. I don't suppose we can get into a bible-study; but from the passage above it is clear that He "is the heir of all things"; "made the worlds"; "is the brightness of His glory"; "is the express image of God"; "upholds all things by His power"; "He purged our sins".
If this was the only passage, there may be doubt, but there are dozens of passages pointing to the same conclusion. I can't honestly say that I know of any Christians who don't accept that Jesus is God; at least as far as humans are concerned.
"What Jesus meant ...."
I think Jesus said exactly what He meant. If we were capable of getting into heaven by 'being good' then why did He have to go through all that business on the cross ?
:-)
Ehis Odijie 10+
You are highly misinformed as most Christians. If you take the bible literally then it is contradictory in tone, inconsistence in instruction and out-dated in some parts. If you take Jesus Christ as a message then it is “Love Your Neighbour as yourself”. Jesus Christ is a message and Love for everyone (your enemy inclusive) is at the core of that message.
It is ridiculous to think otherwise because there are so many folks even in the present world that never heard of Jesus. I've got some Chinese friends that never heard of Jesus Christ but have heard of the message one way or the other. I am African and most of my forefathers never heard of Christianity but that message is part of humanity its self. Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ but the message is central to their religion – Muslims and other religion have a similar message of love.
Do not quote me verses Peter – because I can cite verses that even the Pope cannot explain. . Take the message, let your life be what makes you a Christian not what you claim to have read. . .
Peter Law 30+
If we have to read a book non-literally, then how do we decide what it really means ? It means whatever we want it to mean, and the chances of getting any truth from it are zero.
Usually what happens is some guy tells you what it means, and we follow him. I think I'll stick to the literal.
I'm sorry that you don't like what it says, you'll need to take that up with the author.
:-)
Ehis Odijie 10+
Perhaps you can explain the following verses literally.
(1) “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18),
(2)“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)
(3)“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)
(4) “Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)
(5) “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
You cannot read a book that was written Two Thousand years ago literally, that’s common sense. The bible is timeless but it is also contextual - if you see it literally then it must be out-dated . . . You have to understand this.
Peter Law 30+
How about you interpret them into today's language for us. You seem to hold to the bible for Jesus, but think it needs re-interpretated. So you interpret these passages as you see it, and then I'll do the same.
:-)
Ehis Odijie 10+
And why do you intend to interpret the extract when you already declared that it should be adhered to literally . . . they are self-explanatory.. it encourages discrimination against gays, promote slavery, cause women to be subordinate and ordain as a religious duty the killing of witches.
My point - do not take the bible literally - the extract was written to fit a particular time and place. It is quite obvious that our time do not fit into the extract so that passage is not for us . . It is out-dated. . However, we have our part in the scripture and that part is "Love Your Neighbour as yourself". This message fits into the current world. . if you love your Neighbour you will not discriminate him/her even though he is gay . . since you do not wish to be the slave of anyone - you do not wish that for someone . . . That is simple .
Now you understand me Mr Peter . . It takes more than the physical sense to understand the word of God . . Not all passages are yours . . look for yours and leave the rest alone.
natasha nikulina 50+
What particular time and place can justify mentioned above verses ?
And how it can support the main idea of teaching
"Love your neighbour as yourself"
Out-dated eternal book ?
Peter Law 30+
So your view of keeping up to date is just to drop the parts you don't like, and keep the parts that you personally agree with. Using that system I could use just about any book as my guide.
You use particularly emotive passages to make your point, presumably to get a mass reaction to my views. It is difficult to explain these in a few lines as full understanding takes a lot of study to get the context; however I will have a go.
1) Slavery is normally associated with the African Slave Trade in our eyes, but the biblical understanding is different. If a man owed money, which he couldn't repay, he was given the option of working it off. If I remember, for a max of 7yrs. There were strict rules for both slave (or servant), and equally strict rules for the master. Sometimes when the money was paid the slave would stay on voluntarily for life. If he did his ear was pierced as a sign.
2) Man is designated the head of the household, & has to love & cherish his wife, who in turn follows his lead. The man has the responsibility, the woman has the security she needs to bring up children; it's a good system. Men have abused it, but that's down to men, not God.
3) This is a prophecy of what it will be like towards the end. It tells of unbelief & mockery & general rebellion against the Word of God. It's coming true in our time & much worse is to follow, but instead of seeing the prophecy come true, we nit-pick about the wording. We are warned not to get involved in homosexuality; if we do & get hurt, then it's down to us. It's a sin just like all the others, in Sodom it was a prelude to disaster.
4)This one is from the Old Testament, the rules were a bit different then. Witchcraft was legalised for some reason recently (UK). I guess folk thought it was a fairy story, time will tell how much (if any) harm is done. Maybe they were boiling children in cauldrons back then; I don't know....ctd
Peter Law 30+
5) This is related to 2) and is the general pecking order. It may have been relevant only to the church in that time, or not, there is much debate on this. Certainly women are free to contribute in our church services and bible studies.
This last one sort of exposes the position. We are saved by the blood of Christ period. We do our best to live according to His wishes, but as human beings we make a hash of it. Thankfully that is unimportant in the scheme of things. Jesus himself told us not to judge each other by how well we kept rules. The bible is God's book, it is His Spirit that reveals the truth to His people, to the rest it is foolishness, which makes it an easy target for complaint. It has however stood the test of time, & is still changing lives for the better.
:-)
natasha nikulina 50+
Your explanation is really helpfull,
but doesn't it mean that you can't read the bible literally?
Ehis Odijie 10+
natasha nikulina 50+
Peter Law 30+
:-)
Ehis Odijie 10+
My whole argument with Peter was that one cannot read the bible literally because if you do it raises serious questions that not even Pope can explain . . and Peters attempt to twist direct quotes from the bible causes irritation. There is slavery in biblical times in the form of America slavery . . I bring your attention to the enslavement of the Israelites in Egypt and how Joseph was sold for slavery . . . How dare you try to twist that to mean what you dream it to be. . . Peter's attempt to twist the biblical meaning of slavery is so annoying.
I can provide more verses of slavery . . . .
"Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ." (Ephesians 6:5)
"Slaves, obey your human masters in everything; don't work only while being watched, in order to please men, but work wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord." (Colossians 3:22)
"Slaves are to be submissive to their masters in everything, and to be well-pleasing, not talking back ." (Titus 2:9)
I thought you were brainy enough to get away with these question . . . let me help you out. The Bible was written by people, not a deity. Most books are account of happenings and the slavery part were written because of the context of its time . . . and Jesus Christ wrote none of the books in the entire bible.
To take the bible literally is an act of madness. . . For your information i am a proud christian but not one in denial.
Ehis Odijie 10+
The real question should be ' what is the eternal truth?' And i say the message of Christ. . what we have been grappling with is a side show . The real message is ‘Love Your Neighbour as yourself’ and not all passages of the bible supports this message. You have to realise that the bible is an account of early events and the books to be included in the bible was debated and voted upon. . so do not think it is some kind of message faxed from heaven . . because it is not. That is my point.
Like every human message – it is contextual and seeks to answer questions of its time. The mistakes of most religious people is to hold to those old views and equate them to the realities of today . . for instance the Islamic Sharia law. That law was created to prevent the rich from stealing from the poor but an uninformed Muslim thinks it was a direct message from God. There are human element in the bible . . get that.
If you really understand the meaning of Christianity you do not have to go to church to prove you are one . . Christianity means 'Christ like', a religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazaret. The teaching of Jesus was unconditional love for everyone . . nothing else. . . That is the eternal truth not the discrimination of women or slavery which some writers included in the biblica account.
natasha nikulina 50+
That's exactly what I was trying to lead to...
Bible is a product of human mind, people, which were exposed to and influenced by the ideas of their time, they happened to live in.
Bible is not a book, it's a library,where you can find a lot of things, but it does not in any way diminish the great teaching, which Jesus brought into the world, and the message of love lies at the core of it.
A simple crystal of insight tells us how the world is built:
All is One
Peter Law 30+
"Do not quote me verses Peter – because I can cite verses that even the Pope cannot explain."
For someone who doesn't like to have verses quoted, you sure do quote a lot. The verses on slavery make perfect sense. Slavery was a fact, God didn't instigate it; man did. God gave the Jews rules to keep it humane , the Egyptians did not give a toss about the Jewish Law. Jesus told us to 'turn the other cheek'; to be honest & hardworking, whether slaves or not. I see no problem.
I have explained the passages, they can be taken literally by those who understand. If you think I have twisted them then I'm sorry. Jesus stood foursquare behind every word of the old testament.
Mat 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
So if you admire Jesus so much, then you have to factor that fact into your thinking.
Jesus main theme was to love Him & love one another. He also said that if we truly loved him we would obey his commands. Many people admire Jesus, whether Christian or not, but if we are to be consistent we have to put the bible into context. It's not a pick & mix.
:-)
natasha nikulina 50+
If your belief, the way it is, makes you a good man, husband and father, and I am sure you are,
then I am truly happy for you! Keep going,
God bless you.
dingle mcringleberry
If that's all we can conclude, then seriously.
The virgin mary just told a blatant lie, and this got seriously out of freaking control.
What even is the point of theism if people have broken it down THAT much just to justify what they have become emotionally attached to.
dingle mcringleberry
It is literally impossible to love another person as you love yourself.
You don't love yourself, first of all, you only look to satisfy the aspirations of your brain.
You can be nice to others, but you're only being nice because YOU want to be nice. Everything you do, you decide to do for your own benefit.
Second of all, even if you were right (despite being brutally wrong), I could search the planet a thousand times and I can guarantee that every single person cares more about themselves than anyone else.
This is nature, this is literally what makes us human. The aspiration for personal fulfillment.
Even the most selfless people out there, lets say somebody donates millions to charity.
They decided to do so because they decided those people deserve better.
That person WANTS those people to be better off.
That person wants to be able to sleep at night.