Oksana Onufryk

Teacher, Lviv Academy of Commerce

This conversation is closed.

Will Islam gradually become the most dominant religion in the world?

I can't help wondering how passionately western people debate on Islam! What is really weird is to see them quoting Koran. I'm just curious is it the sign that Islam gradually puts other religions in shade?

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    May 26 2011: I think in future people won't believe in religion anymore. they will believe in science and themselves.
    • Jun 2 2011: "I think in future people won't believe in religion anymore"
      but this is only your think. any proof?
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    May 31 2011: I used to think Islam was perhaps one of the most inflexible and unchanging religions, but then i saw a documentary on PBS that profiled the struggle of a Muslim woman seeking equality within a conservative Islamic Community (it was somewhere in New York or Pennsylvania, I believe). In any case, I found it quite fascinating how much dialogue was occurring within this mosque, and that the community actually voted on their leadership. Unfortunately, the woman ultimately lost her battle with the conservative males that dominated the mosque and the community. However, it did give me hope that as long as that participatory structure is in place, there is hope for reform from within.
    • Jun 1 2011: The fact that she lost says Islam *is* inflexible.
      In 1500 years they have not moved beyond "men are a degree above women" - Quran 2:228
      Everyone else has.
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    May 26 2011: In the short run, I believe that Islam will continue to grow and become more dominant for several reasons.
    They appear to satisfy a strong human need of intense belonging that can be provided by a religous community in a disjointed world.
    Underdogs catch the emotion and attention of the world and they have often been percieved as underdogs.
    They have a substantial birth rate and many are emmigrating to nations that are warm and welcoming.
    Their men are sober so more of their energies can be harvested for their own communties and good works.
    If they really treat their own people kindly and care for one another it is a powerful vision with deep attraction for many.

    It will ultimately decline as people learn more about the world by internet etc. Isolated people can be convinced of the version of a story for a time but give them access to information about the wider world and people' curiosity takes over.
    If they do not get a handle on women's rights they will not have the warm welcome that they recieved in the past and that is starting already.
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      May 27 2011: Totally agree. Thanks, good point!
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      May 27 2011: Debra: All your points are valid and insightful.

      Would just add that the people of the "developed world" are going to be overwhelmed demographically by those of the "undeveloped world". Something we just need to accept.
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        May 27 2011: Tim, that is a fact. It is also why actual dialogue is vital.

        We need to start asking the really hard questions in a direct and polite manner right now.
        That's why i talk about my daughter-in-law and to a lesser extent my daughter's time in Saudi. They have to answer to the world NOW not someday when the demographics are victorious why 50% of people have no rights. They should be asked why right now - one of my sons had a Saudi roommate at university in Canada who was given a SLAVE for his 16th birthday. They should answer now why it was OK for Muhammad to have a 6 year old wife and why women must be covered and uneducated when Muhammads' first wives were educated business women who had the bank roll.

        We can ask fair questions now or we can face the consequences later. But we also have to be fair now as in the case of Palestine.
    • May 27 2011: Yes I can tell you that becoming a true Christian is not easy. Christ Jesus wants a lot of us bumbling sinners. I will always struggle to be more Christ-like. Where is the love in Islam?
    • Jun 2 2011: "It will ultimately decline as people learn more about the world by internet etc"
      there is no world wider then Islam.
      people will con into Islam by internet etc.
      Isolated people are who have controlled media and think Islam is bin ladan.
      what is definition of women's rights?

      please do not prejudice about Islam by Saudi.
      6 year old wife is not real. she was 15-17 year. its recorded different aged in different historical books from 6 to 22 years. and real was 15-17. also in warm countries girls grow faster.
      "why women must be covered"
      in Islam woman is special for her husband to protect and support family and childs training. family is very and child train important in Islam.
      "Muhammads' first wives were educated business women who had the bank roll. "
      prophet had only one wife until she died. and she spent all her money for prophet love and expanding Islam and then they had a poor life. and then all his wives were old widows for special reasons but one young (Aisha) that has its own story.

      Dear Tim,
      what is developed world? only technology? and developed military? what about spirituality and moral?
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        Jun 2 2011: Yes, I agree the use of the terms "developed" and "undeveloped" world are not the best (that's why I put them in quotes). What would you suggest instead to distinguish those countries that have become more industrialized and secular?
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    May 29 2011: If you follow the numbers, it could certainly happen. And I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. If Islam becomes the dominant religion, it will gradually lose its sense of martyrdom and become more liberal-minded and modern. Hopefully, in time, all religions will be reduced to quaint relics of the past, and we can move forward into the future with a collective understanding that our destiny is in our own hands.
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    May 28 2011: Just a hypothesis with a bit of Logic behind

    Future generations will be more and more scientific because of Internet and mobile phone technology and their access to it cum opporunity of sharing ideas globally through social networking.

    Logics

    Future generations will not only be exposed to dumb answers to their basic question from their physical surroundings, rather they will get multiple thought from open source information which will make them think critically more so will be more creative and more scientific.

    So more archaic any belief system is quicker those will walk through the path of extinction.
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      May 28 2011: This image came to mind: http://imgur.com/ayPju ( sorry for the 'f' word )
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        May 28 2011: "One picture talks better than thousand words " !!!

        Thanks for sharing (no worry could ignore that"f" word & looked for the meaning beyond)
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        May 28 2011: I think the picture is excellent, because it means that people cannot be manipulated by a single group of individuals who's only interest is to use these people for their own benefits, bastardizing a religion and giving it their own interpretation in the process.
      • Jun 2 2011: the only problem of this image is that it assume religion=church.
        if we assume religion=church then nice pic!
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          Jun 2 2011: Religion is represented by the church but is not THE church itself. The church is a building.
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    May 27 2011: Seems it is European culture that is to face extinction due to Islamic immigration in the nearest future.

    'There are signs that Allah will grant victory to Islam in Europe without swords without guns, without conquest. We don't need terrorists, we don't need homicide bombers. The 50 millions Muslims in Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades'
    Muammar Gaddafi

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjtEMEuIQGM
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      May 27 2011: Very interesting statistics on the growth of the Muslim population. And interesting conclusion:

      "As believers we call upon you to join the effort, share the gospel message with the changing world. This is a call to action."

      What, are we supposed to have more nookie?
    • May 27 2011: Would just like to add that the video linked above is all propaganda and scare mongering. The BBC has broken it down, and more or less disproved it. Here's the link:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mINChFxRXQs
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        May 28 2011: Thanks for the correction Fauzan.

        I'm still under the impression, though, that demographic trends indicate that the populations of Europe and North America will become a majority of people from other places. Not that anyone should be objecting to that, but it seems a basic fact. Do you disagree?
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          May 28 2011: Merkel says multiculturalism has utterly failed..
          On the other hand it's natural process that people migrate in search of a better life and there is really nothing so scary and disturbing.

          http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/video/2011/mar/18/germany-angela-merkel#start-of-comments
        • May 28 2011: Just to note, one of the quiet arguments against Turkey joining the EU is that it would add 70,000,000 Muslims to the EU. This would have significant implications for the religious and social tone and influence in the EU, particularly as it is anticipated that it would be the largest country by population in the near future.
        • May 28 2011: I'd have to agree with you on that Tim. Obviously the time scale will be much different to what was proposed in the video, but if things remain the same it will happen. But now it's safe to say that all the countries have realised this, and are acting upon it.
          The EU's stance on Turkey, UK changing it's immigration rules along with what Oksana mentioned, it shows they are thinking about this, and trying to reverse it.
          However, one thing to remember is that it's very easy to write this of as a conspiracy theory, but it's something which people will undoubtedly use as material to flame anti-West sentiments in most Muslim nations, so could add further fuel to the fire.
        • May 28 2011: Fauzan .."...use as material to flame anti-West sentiments in most Muslim nations, so could add further fuel to the fire."

          Hopefully that's fueling the fire for verbal discussions on all sides :-)
        • May 28 2011: If only it was that simple!
          I was born and grew up in Pakistan, and I know how emotional people can get, and the sad part is that it's the educated people who get caught up in this too, and promote such an attitude.
          The conspiracy theories and the "we are victims" mentality is so wide spread now, it's going to take a long time for us to come back to a more rationale mentality. Of course, by rational thought I am only referring to Pakistan and can't speak for other nations, though I feel the same mentality is just as prevalent there.
        • May 29 2011: Fauzan, I wonder how we could steer everyone towards rationality and civility, because we all have it in us, don't we? Maybe the tumultuous responses are in part, a consequence of the rhetoric that comes from the leadership of a country?
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  • May 27 2011: I think religion will extinct, very soon. as science is advancing and people are exposed to the reality and the nature of the universe, they will start to be more open minded, and question religion. and start to lose faith, and believe in science and reality.
  • May 27 2011: Islamic ideas cover a wide area of subjects, but I hope that people will eventually evolve beyond the need for religious belief systems. All religions reflect and enforce societal norms and attempt to elevate them to a level of supernatural reward and punishment. If society adopts more egalitarian norms, religion will eventually follow suit.
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    May 27 2011: Future is always brighter (i love to think so) , believe people of futrue will be free from any kind of archaic thoughts or belief more and more and become more tolerant.

    Discussion in western world (there are also muslim people in western world) going on to understand each other better that's the way I see it................

    If you look into statistics and compare data , say of 1950 Vs 2011 regarding people's identity on the basis of their belief system, you will see a great percentage of people in 2011 boldly expressing their identity being atheist or non religious. That shift in trend shows where we are moving forward............
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    May 26 2011: i have nothing against religion. religion was made for a good purpose and its shows us the way of life. region does bring thousands of war but religion does bring peace too.
    i born in a Muslim family and off course i read Quran, but i also read bible, Gita, Iching and every single holly book possible. none of the religion told us to lie or fight. this is the beauty of religion. :)
    i just want to say one thing, i think it will explain everything.
    you dont need religion for being a good person, but you do need religion for go to heaven/hell.
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        May 28 2011: That's one of my favorites Richard , never read in English only read the Bengali version which is also a great piece of translation.

        Thanks for sharing
      • Jun 2 2011: Dear Richard,
        can you say Persian version of that poem?
        I think you interpret Persian poem by their surface meaning.
        Persian Poem is full of metaphor
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          Jun 2 2011: “There is no world wider then Islam.people will con into Islam by internet etc.”

          My fervent hope is that the internet does what it ultimately does best: Bring to light the truth about things, in which case Islam and the other world religions will be exposed for being what they largely are (yes, they provide something of a moral compass for some - not talking about that part) Antiquated documents that should be seen as such and left on the shelf when it comes to understanding and living fully the ever-evolving life that is the earth.
        • Jun 2 2011: گوینـــد کســـان بهشت بـا حــــــــــور خــوش است مــن می گویـــــــــم کــه آب انگــــــور خــوش است
          ایـــن نقـــــــد بگیــــــر و دست از آن نسیـــه بـــــدار کـــــــآواز دهـــــــــل شنیــــــدن از دور خــوش است
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          Jun 2 2011: Translate please.
      • Jun 2 2011: thanks Dear sha b,

        Dear Richard,
        that poem says there is no need to wait for death to enjoy Heaven. right now you can feel they enjoys of heaven by having close relation to God.
        for example here Khayyam says I already see the Heaven every where.
        if you be a friend of God your spiritual eye opens and you see Heaven around yourself already before death.

        چندانکه نگاه می کنم هر سویی

        در باغ روان است ز کوثر جویی

        صحرا چو بهشت است ز کوثر کم گوی

        بنشین به بهشت با بهشتی رویی

        translate is something like this:
        when I look around
        in garden is a river from Kowsar (a special pool in Heaven)
        Deseret is like Heaven, say less about Heaven
        sit in Heaven with a Houri
      • Jun 2 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
        it is translated or poem Richard said in Persian.
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    Jun 1 2011: In my opinion, the religion that will eventually assume the majority role in the world will be the Baha'i Faith. Even though it is still statistically a minority religion numerically, it is a major world religion that is widespread. The Baha'i Writings comprise hundreds of volumes and are the most recently revealed holy scriptures (1853). The Writings are an instruction manual that teaches mystical and practical unity with all Creation within the framework of "Unity In Diversity". It is the only religion that forbids contention with other religions, has no clergy, maintains that humanity is equally male and female, forbids war and contention while encouraging cooperation and harmony. The Baha'i Writings also provide practical guidance for uniting the diverse cultures into a world community (diversity, not conformity). While claiming outright that there will never be Utopia, there is guidance on political and economic issues that, if enacted by humanity, will manifest an enlightened civilization that will prevail for a thousand years. I should also mention that Baha'is in Iran are systematically imprisoned and tortured as a threat to the establishment, partially because the station of women is free of male dominance. Additionally, proselytizing is also forbidden, and you don't need to declare yourself a Baha'i to benefit from the wisdom found in the Writings. The Baha'i Faith just makes too much sense, and I think it will eventually prevail as the primary unifying influence in the world.
    • Jun 2 2011: Baha'i Faith is a human made religion and is made by Imperialism for expanding Imperialism.
      it has a beautiful face.
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      May 31 2011: Timothy:

      There are two common theories on this topic:

      1) Islam is at war with the west and will fight to destroy the west and send it into another dark age.

      2) Islam will modernize as it interacts with the west.

      If #1 is correct, then I think we are doomed. More likely #2 is correct as when there is interaction, the natural desire to participate in the fruits of modern society becomes the dominant force.

      In any case, the main way to make #1 true is to continue bombing Muslims. The main way to make number #2 true is to interact as equals.
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      May 31 2011: In regards to your comment on self censorship. Today in the US not a single congressperson can openly say they are an atheist or non-believer in the supernatural. This is self censorship.

      AND WHAT THE ADMIN DID TO THIS THREAD IS TED CENSORSHIP. PLEASE STOP IT!
  • May 29 2011: I think it is interesting that people believe religion is on the way out, that science and reason will prevail. Whatever ones belief, the notion that the majority will accept such paradigm shift from religious belief, seems miss-guided and unreasonable.
    Here I use a Christian example, 25% percent of Americans identify themselves as Evangelical Christians, an increasing figure from prior census. Evangelicals are far from reasonable and accepting of science, they subscribe to a religion that moves away from moderate Christianity. Evangelical churches spring up at an alarming rate, and more and more Americans are embracing this religion.

    There are obviously more issues at play here but we should not discount the ability of religion to form belief, within even the most developed of global societies.
  • May 27 2011: No. Christ Jesus taught Love, Truth, Acceptance of persons despite sins. If Islam had Love as its center none of the problems they try to excuse would exist.
  • May 27 2011: Religons are stories made by people for people, and many are getting way more smarter to believe in these wage jimbo jambo stories that have been designed to make us behave in a certain way.

    We are 99.9% genetically same. We also posses 99.9% the same values; we appreciate to be alive, we love people that love us unconditionally, and we care about the people we love. When we learn to love unconditionally, love will override our prejudices' and we will learn to live together.

    There will be a time, when we won't fear any more, than, there will be no room for religion to live and no doubt that logic and science prevail. Religion will be remembered as an era, where people have believed in something that they didn't know.

    @Richard Dawson. How do you feel about other religions becoming extinct?
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    Jun 2 2011: Religions are a means of controlling society. Islam will become the most dominant religion if malse continue to dominate society - because Islam, as opposed to other religions, puts men at a huge advantage. If women begin to play a bigger role outside the domestic realm, and they command respect as equals, all religions will lose their lure.
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      Jun 2 2011: Many have mentioned the increasing influence of woman as a prime factor in solving the world's problems. Do you see that occurring? And how can that process be accelerated?
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          Jun 2 2011: More evidence of that is that populations in whole provinces in India the male female balance has been devastated by abortions of female fetuses- given that the fetus only gets its sex after the fourth month the women go through agony in these abortions that are required by their families. It isn't just happening in India but in many nations where female babies are considered inferior.
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    Jun 2 2011: “There is no world wider then Islam.
    people will con into Islam by internet etc.”

    My fervent hope is that the internet does what it ultimately does best: Bring to light the truth about things, in which case Islam and the other world religions will be exposed for being what they largely are (yes, they provide something of a moral compass for some - not talking about that part - talking about the resyt of what) Antiquated documents that should be seen as such and left on the shelf when it comes to understanding the ever-evolving life that is the earth.
  • Jun 2 2011: "Will Islam gradually become the most dominant religion in the world?"
    this is what all Muslims believe it.
    and God promised this is Koran:
    http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/9:33
    http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/48:28
    http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/61:9
  • Jun 1 2011: the answer is "YES".
  • May 31 2011: Islam will never conform its to strict as we have seen it cant be changed or will it allow change. Religion all in all yes it has its good points but overall has many bad points specially in todays society.
  • May 31 2011: I dont think so more and more people are becoming agnostics and atheists around the world and are done with these forms of mythology.
    The time of religion is over, we do not need religion to justifiy being moral...
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      May 31 2011: I read somewhere the other day that there are 1.9 million athiests in the world- that leaves a lot of relgious folks and the fastest growing faith is Islam.
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          Jun 1 2011: Currently Burkaless Deb responds:
          Peace be upon you my nonprognosticating friend!
          You are correct that a phrase like 'fastest growing' is meaningless. My point is that atheists are not winning as many converts as Rhett might suppose.
      • Jun 2 2011: atheists are truth seekers.
        I respect them if they not stop seeking and research for truth.
        they do not recognize fake religion as true religion.
        they have not found truth.
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    May 31 2011: Maybe, but I don't see why I should care or why any of this is relevant to me. People can believe in fairies for all I care as long as I can live my life how I want to.
    • May 31 2011: Are you so naive to think people believe doesn't matter? Your believe is your operating system. People's belief is bound to affect your and my liberty eventually.
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        May 31 2011: That could be the case but I think it's a slippery slope. There are plenty of people who are are also atheists and secular humanists. Just because Islam is growing rapidly that doesn't mean Muslim people will acquire power and infringe on our liberties because there are plenty of other people who won't stand for that certainly all other religions will have a major problem with that as well as atheists which put together is a large chunk of the population. It is really difficult to establish a power relation between church and state in modern society as well so what you are saying is plausible but it's highly unlikely in my opinion.
        • Jun 2 2011: @Budimir,

          Budimir wrote: "....that doesn't mean Muslim people will acquire power and infringe on our liberties ..."

          You kidding me!!!
          They already have. Wake up. We already have compromised in our freedom of expression.
          Proof: No major news media can publish Mohammad cartoon in any big way in prime time broadcast.
          Do you think this self censorship is because the West think Mohammad's character was so great that it would be unfair to make fun of Mohammad or is it due to the fear of terror from Muslim group.
          Wake up West.....we already have compromised in some aspect of our way of life, our cherished value.
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        Jun 1 2011: The society should be controlled, since it doesn't consist 99% of pure intellectuals. Society is often a herd, having a total liberty they don't know what to do with it. And religion is not always a bad operating system, as long as it lobbies welfare and peace. Hence, it matters a lot which religion will be dominant and whether religion will be important at all. As far as I'm concerned, Islam is already the most popular religion (this heated discussion with YOUR excellent knowledge of Koran is the proof) as Islam represents an extraordinary culture we didn't quite know for a long period of time. And it might be transformed into something more civilized and dominating in Europe. Meantime intelligent western atheists drink their beer swallowing and snorting drugs, oh, pardon, I forgot about other pop gods - sex and money, well-disciplined Muslims seem to take over, putting down roots in EU/US, shading other cultures.

        You might be right, I'm not sure though, that intelligence doesn't need any gods. Supposing you are right, but what if god is an absolute intellect we fail to understand? Science has many gaps as well, and it is not a perfect source we can rely on.
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          Jun 1 2011: Are you being ironic? Discipline? This is what I read about whats happening even in your country:

          "Muslim girl, 19, 'stoned to death after taking part in beauty contest'"

          "Police have opened a murder investigation and are looking into claims that three Muslim youths killed her, claiming her death was justified under Islam."

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392454/Muslim-girl-Katya-Koren-19-stoned-death-beauty-contest-Ukraine.html

          Maybe we could have a little less "discipline"?
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          Jun 1 2011: No that's not true if you feel like a sheep that's fine, but I don't think it's correct to generalize and give everyone else that label. Many active people in society stand up and fight for their rights, and many people have the backbone to fight against complacency.

          Islam is not gonna touch on how I live my life because I'd rather die before I let that happen, I don't care to read or know what the Koran is about and I do have choice in the matter. Religion is not the operating system of a society, it's members are, we are moving in the direction where we can rationalize the meaning of our existence without being mislead by primitive customs like religious customs. So speak for yourself.
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          Jun 1 2011: You can be disciplined and not do drugs and not engage in sex without Islam. You are framing the issue and picking things out which are standard for any religion or drug free life not just Islam. Your choice for Islam as the main provider of these things in life is completely irrational. You can also have a secular society which is not based on money, sensation or consumerism. I am actually against all that, but I am not about to submit to a Islamic hegemony to actualize all these things.
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          Jun 1 2011: I can't support those ideas Oksanna. Society and psychological evidence are clear that when people have any knowledge of a topic the consensus is often very very accurate. When societies are fully participative they are most effective. Thank God (oops is that politically incorrect here?) that we do not have a society of intellectuals. Some of the most out of touch people I ever met thought themselves to be intellectuals. I'll bet on average people with access to information and put my future in their hands in a democratic system.
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          Jun 1 2011: @ Debra

          Yeah I'm not big fan of sweeping generalizations, if one thing public polls show that people really make smart political decisions. Among other things climbing up in the hierarchy of society could mean nothing more than being well connected or being able to manipulate, its not a real indication of intelligence or more importantly moral character. Finally just like oksana seems to be making a sweeping generalization about Muslims in europe I will make one about the ones in America. Many of them are taxi drivers.
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        Jun 2 2011: @ Timothy

        I think it's a long stretch to say that our liberties are gonna be taken away just because everyone agreed not to draw mohammad. The western nations are only acknowledging that yeah some of you who get riled up over this are crazed idiots with zero common sense so we don't wanna provoke unnecessary slaughter. But I am sure if the western nations declared war there would be causalities but terrorists wouldn't win.
        • Jun 2 2011: Dear Budimir,
          whats your idea about after life?
          what happens after death?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
          please reply with proof.
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          Jun 2 2011: Budmir, the fall out from the cartoon incident was huge. Danish companies that were utterly unrelated to the controversy in the middle east will probably never recover. It does go beyond just a few crazed people especially when death edicts are put out for authors of information to which Islam objects. When a group is prepared to justify killing if you do not agree with them - that is seriously scary stuff!We do have to object in proportion but pretending that these things are not threatening to the well being and sharing of information of the entire planet is not the answer either.
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          Jun 2 2011: Richard Dawson,

          First, I'm not a pro-Islam person. I can't say I know Muslims well and their lifestyles is none of my business. Actually I'm just a neutral observer of all that hypocritical fuss over Muslims.

          Second, though Crimea is situated in Ukraine, ethnic Ukrainians never lived there and we don't have right to interfere. Radical Muslims are rare here and there is no proof that this article is not a cock and bull story, you know a lot is written on Net these days..
          I think eastern Europe is quite inconvenient place and not that tolerant as the developed world. All these skinhead movements here are a bit dangerous, you know.

          And finally, don't distort my words about discipline. What I meant was that we are laxer than Muslims and that is their strength. They are survives unlike common Europeans/Americans who are easily shocked and pissed off with minor problems.

          PS I have an acquaintance who left for the Middle East a couple of years ago and lives quite happily there. The truth is she had to change the religion (what I don't quite approve), but has never been beaten nor tortured by her Muslim husband.
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        Jun 2 2011: Well Debra all I'm saying is that this solution is diplomatic, of course it is threatening otherwise there would not be any need for diplomacy. Many decided that it's simply not worth the hassle, but if terrorists keep pushing our buttons and infringing on the way we live our lives I am pretty sure people would strike back. And they wouldn't put up with it.
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          Jun 2 2011: I guess my hope would be that we could as people come to understand each other and negotiate some sort of live and let live 'no killing' agreement. I do agree and hope with you that a diplomatic solution is forthcoming.
          I think that the very first step is to get our own houses in order and take a good long look in the mirror at our own country's actions rather than point fingers at others. I still think asking and answering questions is an awesome route forward.
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        Jun 2 2011: @ SR ahmadi

        The link gave me several options for Pascal but when I get more time I am gonna look at it. What kind of a proof are you looking for? I am assuming you are looking for a proof that God is not real and I will let you now that is impossible. In fact even completely proving a positive thing is not completely possible if we are relying on induction, so in either case we have to both agree that our knowledge is not certain. But when trying to prove a negative you absolutely cannot rely on logic or science, or anything for that matter because it is something you haven't witnessed
    • Jun 2 2011: Revised Version - Now Politically Correct, hopefully.
      It was removed by TED earlier.

      Title: Instead of spending trillions of $ on war we should spend on to find a way to curb Islamic Meme Machine and repair Islamic neural network.
      Conversation: I was born and raised in a Islamic country and society. I been there, done that. I know every genetic code of Muslim, I know every Islamic neurons. I am an insider.

      Many otherwise very smart Moslem do taqiyya (deception when Muslims are weak in the foreign land or worldwide) and other Muslims do that not consciously or maliciously, but habitually, instinctively, because they have been strongly programmed to do so. Islam and Muslims do seek world domination. They think world will be a better place using Sharia laws, Quranic laws, Mohammad's saying and deeds.

      Speaker tried to hide behind the "interpretation" of Quran. But he omit the clear cut wrong or harmful laws in the Quran. It is not a matter of interpretation that 2 women witness is equal to 1 man witness. It is in the quran. Zakat (mandatory charity) money can't be used to help the needy non-Muslims. Kill the kafir (infidel) wherever you find them. There are many barbaric, bad, harmful teachings are in the Quran.

      Worse is that Quran never have gone through the cleansing process that Old Testament have gone through. And eventually we got the separation of church and state. There is no such thing as separation of church and state in Islam.

      Islamic Memes are far stronger than that of Christianity, Hindi or Jews. Muslims higher birthrate coupled with Islamic strong Memetic can circumvent thousands of years of evolution (natural selection) and overcum Western relatively much advance society in just a couple of generation. Yes, it is possible to see at lest partially Islamic Europe and America.

      What does this mean?
      West has and will continue to compromise its cherished virtues as freedom of expression, liberty, equal rights, right to apostasy etc.
      • Jun 2 2011: Dear Timothy,
        I disagree you about your ideas about Koran.
        can you say some clear examples from Koran by mentioning the related verse?
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      May 29 2011: Nichola, you have posted this twice so it must be important but I have no knowledge of it. Do you want to share what it is? Are you saying that it has a greater potential for winning converts and having its own political ideologies than Islam?
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    May 29 2011: Time will proof this. but my personal opinion is if westerm people don't change their attitude towards muslims this might happen very soon.
  • May 29 2011: religions based on dogmas are on their way out. knowledge based on truth,and science will prevail in the long run.to be happy is the birthright of every human being. and how can a person who bears prejudice a negative emotion be happy . a negative emotion will not allow happiness to coexist. religions only breed prejudice
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    May 28 2011: We have two factors at play here:

    1. The Koran preaches improved procreation ( i.e. all Muslim families are very numerous, thus bolstering the numbers, one child at a time )
    2. Children that are born in Muslim families have the Islamic faith imposed on them by their parents when they are not fully capable of understanding what they assimilate. Later on that dogma is stuck in their heads and pilled up with fear. After that it is extremely hard to leave that vicious circle ( the punishment for apostasy is death, for example ) .
  • May 28 2011: the religions, in the long run, will die out. There will be can be a start of medium-term believer but within one century in the developed countries, the religiosity little by little will die out: whether that is Islam or Christianity.
    Philosophy, Philosophy of sciences and Science will give a new direction to the word “spirituality".
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      May 28 2011: Statistically, the non-believers group are growing exponentially in developed countries.
      • Jun 2 2011: good news
        they are real thinkers and real seekers of truth.
        I hope they find truth before death.
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      May 28 2011: Why it did not die till now
      I see the opposite in long run the non believers will disappear
      • May 29 2011: the majority of human are believers, uncultivated and take up the ideas of their family-nation-social category (what conclusion..? yes, you can).

        The least of the things for the human futures will be an acceptance of the other cultures (thus a relativism of knowledge thus a disappearance of fundamentalism, absolutism) with an immense scientific knowledge.But there are always ignoramuses who estimate that science and religion are not opposite. in short, best is to return them to the school (fear to be wrong, a regard of oneself threatened make that there is much conformism).
        sad that there are still as many believers, best is than they do not intervene in policy, than they cannot impose their silly things on the others (they have already their children, and as the poor populations tend to do many children it results from it much from believers), therefore full and whole separation of the religions and state.
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        Jun 2 2011: When developing countries develop ( education, economic progress, scientific progress, etc. ) they tend to be less religious.
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    May 27 2011: I think people will always believe in something, since science isn’t perfect. We have many phenomena science can’t explain identifying them as exceptions to the rules. Religion is important 'as an illusion which is perhaps the most important item in the psychical inventory of a civilization'. Religion gives us the feeling of belonging to the ‘structure of social groups, wish fulfillment, an infantile delusion, and an attempt to control the outside world.’ (S. Freud)

    Hence religions won't disappear. There can only be a change of tradition, once Christianity was dominant, but the change is obvious and we don’t need any surveys to see that while people in the West do not care much about faith, Muslims, running from their autocratic regimes in the Middle East, come and successfully propagate their tradition in Europe. I am curious whether Islam can adjust to European mentality, i.e. become less strict and what consequence it might cause in future.
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        May 27 2011: Richard: All "holy book" religions are "rigid and inflexible". As soon as you commit yourself to believing in the words written in a book that can't be changed you've agreed to participate in a conservative (i.e. - conserving/unchanging) mindset. That is the foundation of holy book religion.
        • May 31 2011: Comparing them might be useless but this one just stands out I think: There is this rule in Islam: Killing of apostasies of Islam is halal

          It means once you are born into a Muslim society or became Muslim there would be no way out for you,
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          Jun 1 2011: Agreed sha b that is the worst law. Of course according to that law Shia's are apostates in the eyes of Sunnis and Sunnis in the eyes of Shias.

          And there is also the sharia which makes women and non-Muslims permanently inferior.

          This is from your fellow Iranian Amil Imani:

          "Islam: A Religion-Custom Made For Men"
          http://www.amilimani.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=196&Itemid=2

          "Muslims’ Sheep Mentality"
          http://www.amilimani.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=173&Itemid=2

          "Admittedly, the non-Islamic culture is no panacea. It has, however, one outstanding feature that Islamic lacks—it allows for liberty with all its attendants— good, bad, or indifferent. For those who have experienced liberty, no inducement is likely to make them give it up—particularly not the fictional promises of the Islamists that have failed in the past and are doomed to fail even more miserably in the future."

          PS sha b I always thought halal was a way of killing an animal for meat. But the way you are using it - it means being ok? right? holy?
        • Jun 1 2011: @Richard Dawson:
          Halal meat : It's ok to eat it, (because of the way the animal is killed-They believe the blood should run out- and if you kill it by injection dirty blood remains inside and the meat would be haram)

          When something is halal it means it's approved by Shari'e , Like when a man and woman marry, They say the woman is halal for him. The opposite of it is haram.(Doing anything haram is against Shari'e)

          And about Shi'es and Sunnis: They aren't considered apostates, They just both think the other is wrong.

          The one you might have in your mind must be Bahais, which is another story. Bahaies are considered apostates by some Muslims I know . (Ironically Bahais are the most logic religious people I know)
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          Jun 1 2011: Thank you for that explanation of Halal and Haram sha b. Also about Shia and Sunni and Bahai's. I think Ahmediyas are also considered to be apostates and they are being killed in a most brutal manner in Indonesia and Pakistan (and possibly elsewhere in the world).

          It is some kind of insanity when people believe that other people should be killed for their beliefs. But I have hope when there are people like you in Iran.

          Islam has the most comprehensive system of indoctrination of any ideology in the world. In the words of Amil Imani

          "Whereas democracy is defined as the rule of the people, by the people, for the people, Islam is defined as the rule of Allah, by Allah and his emissaries, for the pleasure of Allah. And when people, out of concern for political correctness or ignorance, describe Islam as a religion of peace, they are, at the very least, guilty of misrepresenting it.

          If only the masses of Muslims arise and carry out the orders of Allah, then we would have the promised paradise of Islam on earth as exemplified by such rules as that of the Taliban, Saudi Arabia, the Sudan, and of course the Shiite nirvana of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

          Islam is a comprehensive totalitarian form of slavery. It is the opposite of freedom. Its very name, Islam means submission or surrender. True to its name, Islam strives for nothing short of enslavement of the body of humanity as well as the bondage of its mind. This non-negotiable surrender to Islam requires the individual, as well as the society, to disenfranchise themselves of many of the fundamental and deeply cherished human rights"
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        May 29 2011: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)

        Holy Book Religions are dangerous. Period.

        Combined with poverty they are doubly dangerous.
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          Jun 1 2011: "Period" you sound like Jehovah himself. Has that been incorporated into the laws of your country? Any adulterers been stoned or lashed to death there? If not could you stop quoting those things ad infinitum?

          I could tell you something very rude to do with your Bible, but I would be censored.
        • Jun 1 2011: Wait untill you have seen them combined with "power".
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        Jun 1 2011: My bible? I thought it was your bible Richard. Your diatribes against Islam in which you fling so many quotes from the Quran need some balance. Every holy book has it's gems. And every holy book has been used to oppress.

        The battle is not against Islam. It's against archaic thought.
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          Jun 1 2011: Tim the difference is no one is following those verses you are quoting for "balance". A lot of people absolutely believe and follow the verses I quote.

          Thus the "balance" that you claim to portray actually paints a picture of falsehood that the West is just as bad or worse than the Islamic world. A picture that is readily accepted by the Muslim world and espoused by their apologists in the west.

          The truth is the West has progressive laws and secularism and the Muslim world has discriminatory Sharia laws and archaic theocracy.

          "The battle is not against Islam. It's against archaic thought."

          That is an oxymoron. Islam is archaic thought. You seem to be unable to grasp that.
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        Jun 2 2011: And Christianity is more archaic than Islam, and Judaism is more archaic then Christianity. Hinduism is more archaic then the rest. Where are you missing the connection? Using holy books as your foundation is inherently dangerous.

        For you, a non-Muslim, singling out Muslims as the culprits of the world's problems is a bit biased.

        Hinduism, Christianity and Judaism have gone through a process of secularization. Islam is in that process as well. The world will be a lot better off when all are simply considered ancient myths.
        • Jun 2 2011: "Using holy books as your foundation is inherently dangerous"
          why? this is not true about all holy books.
          God did not send any new holy book after Koran? and Koran is not deviated and flexible by sayings formulas not specific rules.
          what this mean?
          do you know Koran enough?
          can you say some examples specifically from Koran?

          "For you, a non-Muslim, singling out Muslims as the culprits of the world's problems is a bit biased."
          I not understand. please say clear.
          Islam not consider non-Muslim, singling out Muslims as the culprits of the world's problems. only few cult of non-Muslim are such in view of Islam.

          "Islam is in that process as well"
          what you mean by Islam? (Islam is near 72 branch)

          'The world will be a lot better off when all are simply considered ancient myths."
          please explain this.
          peace
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          Jun 2 2011: Tim

          In the world of people who are trying to get along and find common ground I absolutely agree with your statement: 'Using holy books as your foundation is inherently dangerous.'

          AMEN
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        Jun 2 2011: S.R. Ahmadi: You overwhelm me with questions. Let's take one at a time:

        "Using holy books as your foundation is inherently dangerous"
        why?

        Because the holy books of Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Hinduism have all been used to justify:
        . war
        . slavery
        . oppression of woman
        . mistreatment of homosexuals

        It is often said that this is due to misinterpretation. But when law is based on ancient holy texts versus modern legal structures these things are inevitable.
    • Jun 2 2011: "I think people will always believe in something,"
      I agree. even believing in Big bang and Evolution as a god.

      Dear Richard,
      "built into itself safeguards against change."
      disagree! you do not know Islam. do you know what is Fitwa? the principals are fix but second level of sharia laws are made according to new needs of society.

      "Shia's are apostates in the eyes of Sunnis and Sunnis in the eyes of Shias."
      this is not true generally. only in some few cases.

      "Islam is a comprehensive totalitarian form of slavery."
      disagree. Islam is opposite of slavery. but when islam cane to Arabia slavery was mixed by culture very much and Islam tried to remove it step by step. not immediately (impossible) so seems Islam has slavery. slaves has many rights in islam and making a slave free in Islam has a high reward by God. please do not mix the culture of Arabs by Islam. only please research about slave in Koran.

      "Islam means submission or surrender."
      yes, but submission to God and freedom from worldly ties (greed, ...)

      "From their manifesto"
      Islam is the greatest danger for England imperialism and making such thing there is not amazing.

      Dear Tim,
      holy book is base and details are not in book and are made according to every day needs. book is like law of physics that can apply to many cases and making many new tools.

      " Islam is archaic thought."
      Islam is both archaic and new. because it is flexible.