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Laura Bickle

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Israel/Palestine conflict, call to pre-1967 boarders

The right seems to be parroting the phrase "Obama threw Israel under the bus" with out a solid explanation of why Israel has the right to the territory they seized in the six days war. What is your position on the "Right of Return?" Or the right of the displaced Palestinians to return to their settlements.

What is the position of those who think Obama "threw Israel under the bus?"

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    Jun 6 2011: @Linsay

    in response to
    "tim..what do YOU see as the Isareli goal? And do you think what they are pursuing may reaally be the U.S. goal?

    With all that has come tto light here in this conversation..who is leading who in Israel?"

    ======

    I think the Zionists wish to have a place where they can defend themselves. The holocaust was a cultural shock that will take time to heal.

    There are times when Israeli interests overlap with American interests. But I think more and more, Israel is a liability. It is a shame to have to say that. I wish it were different. I would like to see Israel survive and become the "beacon of democracy" which they have often been portrayed as. But it gets harder and harder to see it that way.
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      Jun 6 2011: Who are the "beacons of democracy" in the middle east?

      Or do you think of democracy in the same way as our friend SR does:

      "Dear Jim Moonan,
      "You've expressed a very low opinion of the American democratic process."
      yes democracy is the most corrupted form of government.
      Please read the opinions of aristotle about kinds of government."
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        Jun 6 2011: Richard: I'm not sure what your point is.

        My point was that Israel has been the main democracy in the area for the last 60 years and was always touted as the example that was going to lead the way for the region. Yet there don't seem to have been many followers. Just makes me wonder how much of a factor the US support for friendly dictatorships (i.e. - those which won't threaten Israel) is in the equation.
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          Jun 8 2011: You cannot seem to grasp any points from the evidence. Your claim seems to be the dictatorships are a product of American support rather than a product of Islam. That democracy would flourish there were it not for the US despite the fact that there none. Dictatorships like Saddam Hussein, Libya, Iran, Syria or Sudan were not too friendly.
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          Jun 9 2011: Iran isn't a dictatorship.
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          Jun 9 2011: It is not a democracy. It is a theocracy with most of the power residing in the "Supreme Leader" Ayatollah Ali Khameni, then the President and a 12 member guardian council who sees that everything is in line with Islam.
        • Jun 9 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
          I love Khomeini and please take care what you say about him. he or mr. Khamenei can not be considered dictator. please compare their life with Mubarak or Saudi family:
          http://www.imam-khomeini.com/

          which dictator is poet and has very simple life and make food in home? and wash his own cloths?
          please look:
          http://www.navideshahed.com/fa/index.php?Page=albumdefinition&UID=107535&ImageUID=107656
          and please click on each of these links:
          http://www.navideshahed.com/fa/index.php?Page=albumarchive&AS=18660&SSAS=43373
          he is dictator?
          he was a real close friend of Allah.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhollah_Khomeini
        • sha b

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          Jun 9 2011: :))
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          Jun 9 2011: Do you agree sha b that your system of Government is good for Iran? What is your opinion on the demonstrations against the regime, the crackdowns against them? Are you satisfied with the freedoms you have?

          SR I simply said it is not a democracy. Will you agree with that?

          PS doesn't he have a washing machine?
        • sha b

          • +3
          Jun 9 2011: Richard,
          He is right Khomeini, Khamenei and co are all close friends of God, he gave them Oil money and guns and ordered them to full the prisons and graves with my comrades.
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          Jun 10 2011: Sha b words cannot express what I feel for you and your comrades. But most of all I feel anger at the West who remained silent while they were gunned down in the streets. For those who voice support for the Mullahocracy of Iran and claim it is something akin to democracy. Who belittle our own freedoms, that our forefathers fought so hard to obtain, and the achievements of our free people.

          Here is the voice of one of your countrymen:

          "For the past 31-years, the Islamic Republic of Iran has been denying and violating a long-suffering people of all its human rights. The regime is guilty of beating, torturing, raping, and killing prisoners of conscience—political, religious, intellectuals, artists and others.

          Women, chronically oppressed and denied their basic human and family rights, have been the ones most viciously abused by the Islamic system and its hired plain clothes and Basij members. To maintain its suffocating rule, the regime metes out punishments reminiscent of the worst governments in the annals of human history. Amputation of hands and feet, blinding of eyes, hanging, and stoning victims after perfunctory trials in kangaroo courts without legal representation is common-place under the terror rule of the Islamists.

          The regime has violated all norms of international human rights including issuing-very harsh penalties for even "victimless crimes" like fornication, expressing dissenting views in public places, homosexuality, apostasy, and for women who do not wear the hejab in accordance with the dictates of regime's morality police."

          Shame on us for remaining silent while you protested these atrocities. For voicing support to the supporters of your regime even now.
        • Jun 10 2011: Dear Richard,
          I mean this:
          "Dictatorships like Saddam Hussein, Libya, Iran, "
          this means Iran leader is dictator.
          about democracy I agree Iran has not democracy. but some democracy is mixed into it. because president and parliament members are selected by votes of people. but not only by vote. the candidates need to be verified before. but democracy has not verification.

          "PS doesn't he have a washing machine? "
          about Khomeini I am sure he had not. about Khamenei i do not know. but I think has.

          also human rights of UN has some conflicts with Islamic laws.
          why we should obey human rights of UN (that is controlled by US) while they have strict conflict by Koran?
          (this not mean I am a fan of all behaviors of Iran government. Iran government is not prefect and has mistake behaviors. but this mistakes are not related to Koran)
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          Jun 10 2011: "It is not a democracy. It is a theocracy with most of the power residing in the "Supreme Leader"

          Just like the US is an illusion of democracy.

          http://rt.com/usa/news/fbi-political-activists-terrorists/

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism#Laws_and_arrests
        • sha b

          • +1
          Jun 10 2011: Richard Dawson,
          Shame on who exactly? You know how you don't trust Iran's regime to have Palestinians interest in their heart when they interface in Palestine's affairs? I don't believe your authorities are concerned about our well being either. When we have seen what people who are from our own country had done do to their compatriots, Then why should we trust foreign governments with our well beings?

          Mullah are something like clerics, Just like any other human beings, They can choose to be compassionate, and conscientious(I could name Montazeri, and others who could have used the opportunity who was given to them but they choose to be on the people's side and be punished for it)or deceiving and extortioner.

          I'd like to talk to you more, But right now I don't have much time.

          PS Please cut Mr Ahmadi some slack,
          1. He can't talk as freely as let's say me,( because I am anonymous.)
          2. He is making an effort to converse, its not like all things that Iran's authorities have done is his fault.
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          Jun 10 2011: Sha B!
          Man I admire you!
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          Jun 10 2011: Thank you Richard for taking care to correct us alll.

          Man, comma, Sha B- I was fully aware of her gender even if my expressions are dated.
        • Jun 11 2011: Dear sha b,
          how much you know Montazeri?

          "Please cut Mr Ahmadi some slack, "
          what means this? I did not understand.

          "1. He can't talk as freely as let's say me,( because I am anonymous.)"
          if I had any problem in talking free I could become anonymous like you or made another anonymous username.

          "He is making an effort to converse"
          what means? you mean I am trying to talk? if yes TED is for talk.

          "its not like all things that Iran's authorities have done is his fault."
          please be clear. I do not understand what you mean.
          I disagree with my authority in some policies and some economic and cultural and other aspects. but fundamentally I agree with Iran revolution and I hope it can solve its problems. I am fan of Imam Khomeini and revolution. but not fan of any behavior of my government.
          people in Iran are tree main category:
          1-fundamentally hate Islam/God/Koran and so hate Islamic revolution and Khomeini and so on
          2- fundamentally love true Islam/God/Koran but hate abusing Islam and power gained in the name of Islam by love of people to true Islam and killing people in wars and using the power for the worldly greed's of governors.
          3- some ignorant people that blindly follow anything government feed them through media.

          I clearly announce I am in category 2 and I am NOT necessarily fan of any government in earth. but I am fan of TRUE Islam/Koran/Allah.

          maybe the similarity between Islam and Iran make sense that I am necessarily fan of Iran government. I am its fan until it follow the beautiful laws of TRUE Islam.

          Dear sha b I ask you do not prejudice about me before you know me. many people talk Islam but few of them know and obey Allah.
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          Jun 11 2011: Dear SR if I may interject about the explanation of English. To cut someone some slack is to go easy on. Not be so hard or critical of. So it is a good thing.

          I'll cut you some slack as Sha b has asked, you cut her some slack and maybe we should all cut each other some slack.

          Also SR has it occurred to you there maybe more than just the 3 categories you have listed?

          For example category 1- "fundamentally hate Islam/God/Koran and so hate Islamic revolution and Khomeini and so on" is very black and white like your beliefs and your beliefs about truth and science.

          There could be people who do not "hate Islam/God/Koran" and yet do not like the Islamic revolution and Khomeini and so on.

          There could be people who do not "hate Islam/God/Koran", but simply do not believe in Islam and the Koran, yet believe in God

          There could be people who do not "hate Islam/God/Koran", but simply do not believe in any of them.

          The second part of your sentence also does not necessarily follow from the first, though I concede it is very likely.

          There is not just love and hate, there are other feelings also. There is indifference, there is amusement, there is incredulity.

          But people who love Islam/God/Koran, hate those who dont and thus presume that the same feelings are generated towards them from those who do not "love" Islam/God/Koran.
        • Jun 11 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
          I agree you.
          if we want to go more detail there are many more categories.
          I said them about Iran. not other countries.
          in situation in Iran force people to automatically fall in one of above main category. approximately there is no space for other category. political parties and government and conservatives immediately react on any political activity and that activity will be forces to clear his category. there is no way to some one have a Cinerama color. mostly colors are black or white. the categories you mentioned are minority or does not expose themselves. because lack of power. please note that 95-98% of people in Iran are Muslims that near 85-90% of them are Shia (not all believer conservatives but Muslim any way.)
          the categories I said were general without minority categories. also it is my opinion. perhaps my opinion is not prefect and needs more research ans statistics.
        • sha b

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          Jun 11 2011: Richard,

          Before this Mr Ahmadi said something that I thought is because he can't *talk freely*, And wondered why I haven't considered that, and felt bad for him and...You know the rest .

          You are so spot op about the categories, For example there are "plenty of"people in Iran who do not "hate Islam/God/Koran" and yet do not like/ or better said hate the Islamic revolution and Khomeini. But admitting that wouldn't work to propaganda making machines benefit, So they just ignore it. According to them anyone who doesn't love or obey Khamenei is agent of CIA and Mosad who also wants to fight Islam and is of a minority who isn't worth mentioning. You can't talk about it, then that mean it's only you who is thinking about it.
          >In reality this never worked, I may not be able to count the exact number of people like that, But I can talk with random people who are sitting beside me in a bus or waiting in line. People feel like they should curse the regime on a daily basis, Just like how other country's people talk about the weather, we curse them in our random conversations, everywhere. I hear it's even more usual in Tehran. (Maybe not around you Mr. Ahmadi, no offense but going by the looks, You could be mistaken for a pro-governor).

          This is getting too off topic.
        • Jun 12 2011: Dear sha b,
          I disagree some of your views are not real in Iran or at least more than minority specially about Khomeini. it is impossible some one love Koan and hate Khomeini. can you show one deed of of Khomeini conflicting Koran? Khomeini was a copy of Koran. it is only possible when some one do not know Khomeini or Koran or both.
          people mostly curse for economic problems like inflation and job not Khomeini or revolution. and if some say revolution their meaning is economy in revolution out of religion or Khomeini.
          do you see who are around me from Internet? I am more than 11 years in universities of Tehran as student or teacher and I know different kind of people and the least people around me are conservatives.
          if you want to continue this off topic please continue in other topic.
        • sha b

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          Jun 12 2011: http://cafenadery.com/2011/05/31/%DA%AF%D9%88%D8%B4%D9%87-%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D8%A7%D8%B2-%D8%AF%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86-%D9%BE%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%81%D8%AA%D8%AE%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D8%B7%D9%84%D8%A7%DB%8C%DB%8C-%D8%A7%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%85-%D8%B1/

          Everyone knows Tehran and Politechnic universities are the heart of every thing radical in Tehran.
          I can't figure out how come you are acting like I said people in Iran are aliens?

          I won't argue, I know you are even named after Khomeini, It's most likely you'd just feel offended, Just consider this : It's not 95%, I can't make up a number out of blue, But really sure it hardly is 50% who are a fan of Khomeini, Let alone Khamenei...we both know very well even people who are pro-Khomeini are not all pro-Khamenei. Remember the link Mr. Yeganeh posted and the comments? If you could have read people's mind when they are passing by you in the streets, It would have been something like that, Khomeini died years before, You think non-Iranians are still loosing sleep over a guy that died 30 years ago in another country? If anything they think Khomeini is cool cause he caused a revolution, The people who are still holding a grudge are Iranians who had lost something because of him, Not the average American who had just found out there is a country in middle east called Iran.

          No, I most certainly don't want this, didn't want it from the start to be honest. I felt obligate to. Sorry if I came out offensive anywhere in the past conversations. It's not against "you", it's this system we are against. Let's not argue over it. Times are changing. Maybe someday we all get to know more about things that were kept from us.
        • Jun 13 2011: Dear sha b,
          yes Khomeini ordered killing many people. but please say the whole story not only showing some pics. also I doubt all of them are related to Khomeini specially about Kordestan.
          about fans of Khomeini I nearly agree you.my estimate is about 50-60%. but people are very different. fans of Khomeini has no fear and is ready to be killed. like the Iran-Iraq war that near one million Iranian was killed because want of Khomeini. they have no fear of death. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran –Iraq_War
          I know what people say. most of their problem has root in economy and welfare and job and justice . not mainly religion. if people protest its not really for religion. people are satisfied with Islam and do not want communism or democracy (east and west). but need job/welfare and so on.

          "Khomeini died years before, You think non-Iranians are still loosing sleep over a guy that died 30 years ago in another country?"
          yes Iran is an important player in Palestine conflict and Iran revolution has root in Khomeini. I am wonder you even do not know when Khomeini died. he died 30 years ago?! "Not the average American who had just found out there is a country in middle east called Iran." OK so we help them know Iran better

          "It's not against "you","
          also I am not against you. I feel responsibility for blood of those one million who were killed for Iran in war. they did not fought only for Khomeini. they also fought for your land. please note that in all authorities before revolution all kings of Iran lost some lands of Iran in wars. but after revolution even one meter of Iran was not lost. please note Khorramshahr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_of_Khorramshahr which country has such soldiers?
          Liberation of Khorramshahr was a miracle by that balance of military powers.

          "Let's not argue over it." so please you not argue to I not reply your argue.
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          Jun 13 2011: "Khomeini, the founder of the Iranian Islamic state, for one, made extensive use of the fatwa. Widely-known in the west is Khomeini’s fatwa condemning Selman Rushdie to death for his book. A less known fatwa of Khomeini during the last Iran-Iraq war led to the slaughter of thousands of Iranian children. Children, nearly all under 15 years of age, were given plastic keys to paradise as they were commanded by the fatwa of the imam to rush forward to clear minefields for the tanks to follow. The Islamic murderers, in obedience to the fatwa of a bloodthirsty man of Allah, had no problem in deceiving the clueless lads clinching made-in-China plastic keys to paradise."

          http://www.amilimani.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=181&Itemid=2
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          Jun 13 2011: Richard, are you sitting down? I'm sure it will be a huge shock to your system to be told that I am out of thumbs up for you for the week. So Kudos for facts re: Khomeini.
        • Jun 14 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
          about about Roshdi you are correct. in Islamic laws who insult the prophet of Allah should be killed.
          but about Khomeini and child you are false.
          Khomeini did not force any child to go war.
          childs themselves manipulated their birth certificate because love of war for Allah and Khomeini. child went to war voluntary even without permit of their parents. if you heard such it was the propaganda of Iraq for mental war in media against Iran.

          Dear Richard Dawson,
          do you believe anything from any one or any website without searching if it is true or lie? and simply distribute it?
          do you even agree there exist some liar websites?
        • Jun 14 2011: The use of Iranian children to clear minefields for tanks is common knowledge, S.R. Ahmadi. I would say that it is almost as widely known as the Holocaust, but you are not so sure of that one either, are you?

          "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Sir Winston Churchill. Did you ever meet him, by chance, before he said this quote?
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          Jun 14 2011: Debra I rarely sit down and only when I'm typing, but I am a little surprised, to put it mildly. Floored maybe. :) (I pace the floor- does that indicate something?) But thank you. Its feels good to be appreciated
        • Jun 15 2011: "use of Iranian children to clear minefields for tanks is common knowledge, "
          in all my life this is first time I hear such thing.
          can you show some evidence for it?

          I know some children before age of 18 VOLUNTIARY went to iran iraq war. but this is first time I hear they are used for clear minefields. I am 100% sure this is propaganda.
          even if such thing happened I am sure 100% it has been also VOLUNTIARY and not with any force. those childs fighting in war were not 5 years child. for example they were 15-17 and mostly they were helping in back or war not in front of war.
          please show some evidence.
          about holocaust many well known historians and has noticeable critics.
          can you show some valid references for iran children used for clearing minefields?
          I am sure it is propaganda against Iran.
          please show your valid evidence. not from CNN or BBC or media backed with Israel or Imperialism saying lie news with no evidence.

          "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
          this is also my saying about people do not want to change their mind about true Islam.

          http://www.ibna.ir/prtciiqp.2bqss8y-a2.html
      • Jun 8 2011: Dear Richard,
        "democracy is the most corrupted form of government."
        democracy= vote
        vote=advertisement
        advertisement=media
        media=money

        also in democracy for president there is no verification or terms needed. for example a shepherd with enough money for advertise can become president in democracy.

        then assume some one with much money wants to control a country with democracy.
        can he? or can not?

        vote is not best choice when think of people can be easily changed with advertise and media. the majority if vote is always in benefit of who has more money and spend it to change the result of vote.

        democracy has conflict with Islam.
        in Islam The decision is only for Allah and Legislation is not but for Allah.
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/12:40
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/6:57
        • Jun 8 2011: S.R. in an effort to understand your equivalences can you please explain how votes are equivalent to advertisements which are equivalent to the media which is equivalent to money?

          I do not see any of those following logically.
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          Jun 8 2011: Having the choice between Coca-Cola or Pepsi Cola isn't democracy if I can't have a glass of water.
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          Jun 8 2011: It is not true that it is those with the most money that always win. You're assuming a country's population at large is stupid. Also, the fact that democracy has conflicts with Islam is something to be deplored rather than celebrated (although I doubt it's true).
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          Jun 8 2011: "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried."

          Winston Churchill
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          Jun 8 2011: "although I doubt it's true" That is a typical reaction of a westerner. He declares the truth about Islam which he knows nothing about and not studied, while denying what followers of that religion who have devoted their life to its study are saying.

          Islamic law is absolutely incompatible with democracy. It is a theocratic system with Allah alone at its head. Allah's law is interpreted by a ruling body of clerics. There is no room for a secular political system

          @ Tony "Having the choice between Coca-Cola or Pepsi Cola isn't democracy if I can't have a glass of water."

          How dramatic and pathetic. This truly describes western democracies where people cant have a glass of water, while justifying theocracies and dictatorships where their citizens have plenty of water and food. Their Govts ensure them their food and water while heroically staving off Coca-Cola and Pepsi Cola.
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          Jun 8 2011: @Richard

          When lacking arguments, simply refrain from posting non-sense.
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          Jun 9 2011: @ Tony - "Having the choice between Coca-Cola or Pepsi Cola isn't democracy if I can't have a glass of water"

          When lacking anything meaningful to add to the conversation, simply refrain from interjecting with trite platitudes apropos nothing.
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          Jun 9 2011: Well Richard, if you say Islam is incompatible with democracy, I'm willing to believe you. But you've got to admit that not much of what S.R. Ahmadi says is of any value, thus why I was sceptical.
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          Jun 9 2011: Matthieu,
          You know that I have valued your input but I have to share that I also value SR's input. I did not always.
          I have learned over time that he is like us, just tryiing to understand the world better and that he is unfailingly polite and represents a world view. It is a world view we need to hear. It is a world view we need to try to understand.
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          Jun 9 2011: Good point Debra! Most of us here don't really understand Islam because it is so foreign to us. Even my exposure to Muslim co-workers and my Muslim house-mate didn't help me understand their culture in any way. I learned about their culture a bit, but I still view it from an "outsider's" perspective. Even the Arabic language is foreign enough that we can't truly understand the meanings of words- not just "translation," but meaning.

          I can't remember where I heard this, but if we were to translate an Arabic phrase into English, it would have one specific meaning in it's English form. But the original Arabic phrase contains several meanings. Hmmmm... SR do you know what I'm talking about?
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          Jun 9 2011: Matthieu "But you've got to admit that not much of what S.R. Ahmadi says is of any value, thus why I was sceptical."

          Not much of what he says about science is of much value. But he knows his Quran and Islam all right. To assume that if a person is wrong about a few things he will be wrong about everything is a fallacy.

          And he knows his feelings. Are you going to deny him that too? and say those are false because, say, he does not know the difference between a shark and a whale?
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          Jun 9 2011: Well I expressed doubt not certainty. Given that he's interpreted a lot of passages in the Koran as predictions of modern science, isn't it fair to have some reserves about what he might interpret as anti-democratic passages?
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          Jun 10 2011: Lol Matthieu that made me laugh. Cant fault your logic. Yes he certainly could have, but here is why he is correct in this case:

          1. It is necessary for Muslims to reinterpret the Quran to fit in with contemporary scientific knowledge because the ordinary reading of it contradicts even the most basic knowledge. For example every passage in the Quran on the shape of the Earth describes it as flat, with the sun as a small object that moves around the Earth and sets in a muddy spring at night, only to rise in the morning at the command of Allah. Though this impressed the Arabs of that time, it doesnt sit very well with the Quran being without error the words of God. So suddenly all those translations are wrong, Arabic is a very mysterious language not subject to translation (except where it tells you you will go to hell unless you do certain things etc)

          2. It is not necessary to reinterpret the Quran so far as its commandments go. Those are correct even if we mortals might think they are wrong. Allah is much greater than collective human intelligence.

          3. There are no passages in the Quran or the Hadiths that support democracy. As SR correctly puts it "in Islam The decision is only for Allah and Legislation is not but for Allah"
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          Jun 10 2011: fair enough.
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          Jun 13 2011: @ SR "Dear Richard, "democracy is the most corrupted form of government.""

          [ Then SR gives his reasons and why the Govt decreed by Allah such as Iran is so very much better]

          But here: New Zealand, my country and a democracy, is ranked as the least corrupt nation on Earth.

          The first 22 least corrupt nations are all democracies. 23rd is UAE then 24-31 all democracies followed by 32 Oman.

          The Islamic Republic of Iran ruled by the laws of Allah comes 119th and the most corrupt nations on Earth: the Islamic republics of Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia.

          http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm
      • Jun 9 2011: Dear Ross Kleiman,

        "I do not see any of those following logically. "
        in democracy decisions are made by votes. OK?
        vote can by influenced by media, advertise, film, Hollywood, CNN, propaganda, bin laden, fearing people of aliens, artificial conversiations,….
        And for large scale advertise across a country in all media channels (internet, TV, newspaper, cinema,..) money is needed. Got it?


        Dear Matthieu Miossec,
        "You're assuming a country's population at large is stupid."
        people are not stupid but when people are working all time to pay loans and costs and have no time to think they can be influenced by media/cinema/… and actually media think for people. This is kind of stupidity.
        Agree? Do American people really think? For example what they know about bin laden unless from media? Voting is like this.
        Do you disagree an shepherd with no qualification with enough money for buying media/Hollywood/TV/newspapers,… can become president?

        "Laura Bickle"
        "SR do you know what I'm talking about? "
        Yes. Arabic is the most compact language for meaning. Even a letter can have much meaning or even the pronunciation of a letter changes meaning vastly.
        There is hundreds of words for different camels or sward in Arabic. How many in English?
        Arabic is mp100 (like mp3) and I think Arabic is impossible to translate.
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          Jun 10 2011: SR:
          "people are not stupid but when people are working all time to pay loans and costs and have no time to think they can be influenced by media/cinema/… and actually media think for people. This is kind of stupidity.
          Agree? Do American people really think? For example what they know about bin laden unless from media? Voting is like this.
          Do you disagree an shepherd with no qualification with enough money for buying media/Hollywood/TV/newspapers… can become president?"


          You sound like you've been feasting on "media" when it comes to your view of the USA and it’s people.

          I am personally offended that you dismiss our people as non-thinking, brain-washed, propagandists who follow like sheep a wolf in sheep's clothing. There have been numerous opportunities during this discussion and others for you to broaden your understanding of the USA and the world in general, but that is apparently not why you’re involved in this discussion.

          Someone earlier in this conversation alluded to the fact that you seem not at all interested in being engaged in idea-sharing. I personally have yet to hear you express anything but Islamic dogma and simplistic observations about everything else. Your arguments about your beliefs are circular and block out any honest discussion with people who might differ in their world view.

          As for our country and its people and its leadership, there were two short video clips posted in another discussion that provide a more accurate reflection of who we are as a people and what we are thinking. I’m reposting them here, but anticipate you will only see in them what fits your fixed agenda.

          From Birdia Tak Wai Chan
          President Obama Addresses American 'Arrogance,' European 'Anti-Americanism'
          http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/04/president-oba-1.html

          From Tim Colgan:
          I found this section of his "town hall meeting":
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoUtkUpmgPA

          I doubt there are many here who commit to sharing their ideas in TED conversations and lis
      • Jun 10 2011: Dear Richard,
        "Here is the voice of one of your countrymen: "
        I do not disagree it 100% but it is overstate.
        Iran has Islamic laws and in a Islamic government all people should respect to Islam laws for public. But in private people are free.
        Any country has its rules.

        About shark and whale I do not know how many times I should repeat this.
        I saw a movie about amazing animals and some minutes was about a special animal (not in normal size and shape) that I do not remember it was shark or whale. It is for remembering, Not for understanding.


        About earth I am sorry. I explained for you many times. Koran has many sayings about earth and most of them show earth is round. Only one seems to say earth is flat. That I explained it you. I think you will repeat it untill end of your life even with many explains. You find a mistake translate and insist on it as a evidence and do not accept others.
        Not all translates are wrong. You seem like to only use and insist on errors in translations and neglecting correct translations. There are tons of translations and information and books about Koran and some people find some errors in translations and stick to them until they die. The is a saying:
        "some people are like housefly they leave flowers and only sit on smelly things"
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          Jun 11 2011: Dear SR please do not be prejudiced against the humble housefly. It is also one of Allah's creatures :)

          Re: Shark and Whale - you did not know that the Shark was a fish whereas the Whale was a mammal. You now know and you acknowledged my telling you this. But since you now know I apologise for bringing this up - we were not born knowing things, we acquire knowledge as we go along. So no more mention of Shark and Whale from me.

          Re: The Earth being described as flat in the Quran, it is not only 1 verse but every verse and I had quoted these to you. But please let us agree to disagree on this. We agree on many things for example you say:

          1. "Islam covers all aspects of life. even how to go toilet. how to eat. how to walk. you can not say any aspect oh human life that Islam has no Instruction for it." I agree
          2. "also governance is part of Islam. prophet itself was President. please read history of Islam can you find any governor (president of state/country) unless prophet in history of prophet?" I agree

          Now can you confirm for the sake of the people here does Islam not command a World Islamic State under Islamic Sharia law?
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        Jun 10 2011: SR:
        "which dictator is poet and has very simple life and make food in home? and wash his own cloths?"

        Hitler was an artist.

        Tony: "Having the choice between Coca-Cola or Pepsi Cola isn't democracy if I can't have a glass of water"

        You want a glass of water? Here ya go - $2 please. Want some lemonade? Want some iced tea? How about a beer? Let's vote on it.

        You are forming you views on our democracy based on our advertising???? A firm pat on the back to the american advertising moguls for not only selling us refreshments, but selling you a "bill of goods". Joke's on you.

        Although I am a democratic-minded person with hopelessly optimistic tendencies, I do understand the short-comings of democracy well enough now (thanks in part to these conversations and Aristotle - Thanks Richard) to know it is far from perfect... but built into the very fabric of democracy is the mechanism for making it "more perfect". Will it always have an element of curruption? I don't know. All I know is that it offers me hope and a real opportunity to have a voice in what I believe and the freedom to express it - and a nice glass of Coca Cola when I'm thirsty (please don't drink Pepsi. It's the enemy).
        • Jun 11 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
          I agree you I have a small Image of American people and I thank you for informing this me. I hope I can know them more. also please accept few people in TED can not be necessarily same as majority of people in US voting. if all Americans were like people in TED world would be much better. specially your presidents. specially past presidents.
          also i do not remember the name exact but one of writers of www.americanfreepress.net/ said American people does not think. and I was saying based on it. please correct me about this website if it is not valid.

          "Hitler was an artist."
          Thank. Which was poet?
          Poems of Imam Khomeini is comparable with Hafez.

          Dear Richard Dawson,
          Thanks for leaving Shark/Whale.

          About earth its off-topic here. Please :
          http://www.ted.com/conversations/2328/is_koran_scientifically_a_mira.html?c=262231

          "Now can you confirm for the sake of the people here does Islam not command a World Islamic State under Islamic Sharia law?"
          Islam seeks a World Islamic State under Islamic Sharia law:
          This is clear in Koran. It is insisted clearly many times in Koran in similar verses:
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/9:33
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/48:28
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/61:9

          it is promise of Allah and Koran and step by step will be reached.
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/30:6
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          Jun 11 2011: "You are forming you views on our democracy based on our advertising???? A firm pat on the back to the american advertising moguls for not only selling us refreshments, but selling you a "bill of goods". Joke's on you."

          It wasn't a reference to the USA but to the "democratic" world. There is no 'our' democracy, but there is "our" illusion of it. As long as you will believe the USA are the center of this world, you will miss the point. As for the Joke(what joke?) being on me, well... Time will tell ;).
          I have spent enough time(and tax money) in 'your' nation to base my judgement on slightly more than advertisement. I'm not sure this goes likewise.
      • Jun 13 2011: Dear Richard,
        About your ranking it depends on the criteria of ranking and its validity.
        But I do not disagree it.
        I said many times Islam is different of Muslim. And Muslims has many evil behaviors. But it is not related to Islam and Koran.
        Also please note that Iranian revolution was near 33 years ago and there was a 8 year war and also Iran has been under economic and business sanction for many years. And actually development process of Iran has not started yet. Iran has not still finished repair of war destroys and Iran is full of problems including corruption in governmental offices. But still it is not from Islam.
        How many years before the development process of New Zealand started?
        When was the last war of New Zealand? How many years New Zealand is under sanction? How many of the top mangers and leaders and top scientists of New Zealand are terrored every year?
        Do you know how huge number of top Iranian leaders were terrored? Also recently two Iranian nuclear scientist were terroerd when the left their home to work.
        Most western countries have at least 100 years of development and at all can not be compared with Iran. Lets see Iran 100 years later after 100 years of development.
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      Jun 8 2011: Thnaks Tim..I think Israel has to "straightn up and fly right" and that the U.S. Congress, U.N. U.K. should be making that very clear..which they are not. Until the u.S. changes it's policy..Isreal won't chnage theirs...I'm thinkin'
    • Jun 14 2011: Dear Richard,
      also about democracy.
      please note I said democracy is the most corrupted kind of Government.
      it means each type can have good examples and bad examples.
      the type is different of a case.
      when you want to compare government types you should compare two similar country in any aspect only different in government type. then your result will be real.
      democracy has good cases and bad cases but this is not necessarily related to type of government.
      also about Islamic government. although I personally believe no good case of Islamic government has happened in history. (only perhaps in life of prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in city of Medina in Arabia for a short time)

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