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Laura Bickle

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Israel/Palestine conflict, call to pre-1967 boarders

The right seems to be parroting the phrase "Obama threw Israel under the bus" with out a solid explanation of why Israel has the right to the territory they seized in the six days war. What is your position on the "Right of Return?" Or the right of the displaced Palestinians to return to their settlements.

What is the position of those who think Obama "threw Israel under the bus?"

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    Jun 1 2011: In the spirit of getting this important conversation back on track, I offer the following:

    Position:
    The Jews deserve a state.
    The Palestinians deserve a state.
    Just as the Jews were given territory in 1947, the Palestinians deserve the same recognition.

    Conditions:

    1. Independent states of Israel and Palestine based on the pre-1967 agreement with mutually agreed swaps.

    2. A Palestinian constitution that includes specific language that supports Israel's right to exist and to live within their own state.

    3. An amendment to the Israeli constitution that specifically says the same regarding Palestine.

    4. Governments that condemn religious extremism and establish laws to prosecute those who practice or preach it.

    5. A UN sponsored peacekeeping force to patrol common borders

    6. A UN sponsored educational program for children that teaches tolerance of diversity
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      • Jun 2 2011: Hi All,
        I do not know this is on-topic or off topic. but I (and I think almost all Muslims) disagree this assumptions:
        "The Jews deserve a state"
        "the UN can help Palestinians"
        are you sure Palestinians recognize territory in 1947?
        if you want to talk by this assumptions OK, continue. but I recommend starting other topic about realty of such assumptions.
        then land was given by Imperialistic British in a un-humanitarian process that Palestinians do not recognize it.
        the UN many many times wanted to stop Israel but always US VETO stopped UN.
        actually Israel could not survive without VETO of US.
        it is clear that UN has clear support of Israel always by vetoes in favor Israel.
        I think the vetoes of US in favor of Israel and not recognizing Palestinian rights is near 80 times (not sure exact).
        do you know the last year report of UN about humanity in Palestine?
        even if all countries in UN want to support Palestinian people the VETO comes and cancel it.
        educational program for children and so on are only show off.
        UN can not do any thing against Israel.
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          Jun 3 2011: Your response reveals some interesting things.

          First and foremost, you don't seem to like playing by the rules. You will say the rules are not fair, etc. etc. etc. and that there is a world conspiracy against Palestinians, etc. etc. etc. but the fact of the matter is, you don't wan t to play by the rules. You can dispute the rules and seek changes in them through appropriate channels and garner support for the change to take place, but instead you refuse to join the world as it wrestles with it's problems and issues and instead by default become the problem.

          As Bob Dylan sang: "The times they are a-changin'". Change is constant. To stand still is to slip backwards.

          Secondly, and even more concerning given the fact that my life's work is in the field of education, is your response, "educational program for children and so on are only show off."
          For me, that says you are not interested in the single most powerful tool for change in this world: education. For you to pass this suggestion off as deception only deepens my concern that your mind is closed to change. I wish you would give this serious thought and re-consider.
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          Jun 3 2011: Totally agree with S.R. Ahmadi's evaluation in the previous comment.

          US has consistently vetoed UN resolutions against Israel.
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          Jun 3 2011: This might be one of the rare occasions when I agree with something S.R. Ahmadi says. He's been paying close attention.
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          Jun 3 2011: Ahmadi,

          You are right. The UN is worthless and the USA does whatever they want to do.
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          Jun 5 2011: Agree with Matthieu what he told about my friend S.R. Ahmadi. Here I for the first time possibly agree with his (S.R's) observation.

          @ Jim I agree what you said about power of education but I really doubt about UN capability of executing anything without US interference. I know it by heart from the history of my country, my nation & US+ UN stance against it. UN is just B team of US.

          We need peace defintely , but keeping religion on top of the agenda?

          Don't see any hope in near future , don't know which way the Midlle East will evolve and how again it will be influenced by Big Bosses depends much on that.
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          Jun 5 2011: Salim "I really doubt about UN capability of executing anything without US interference. I know it by heart from the history of my country, my nation & US+ UN stance against it. UN is just B team of US."

          UN being just a B team of the US maybe a bit harsh, but I have just been reading about the Bangladesh Liberation War. Fascinating.

          Though "During the war there were widespread killings and other atrocities – including the displacement of civilians in Bangladesh (East Pakistan at the time) and widespread violations of human rights – carried out by the Pakistan Army with support from political and religious militias", the US supported Pakistan with weapons and encouraged China to supply weapons also and sent its Aircraft carrier to try and bully the Indians.

          The USSR tried to counter this.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Liberation_War#Atrocities

          "Though the United Nations condemned the human rights violations, it failed to defuse the situation politically before the start of the war."

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Liberation_War#Foreign_reaction

          I think the lesson is we need to make the UN more effective if we are to stop wars and have peace.
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          Jun 7 2011: @ SR "I think almost all Muslims disagree this assumptions:"The Jews deserve a state""

          In other words most Muslims disagree that Israel deserves to exist.

          I agree with SR on that (what most Muslims think). Though I do not agree with that thought.

          @ SR "land was given by Imperialistic British in a un-humanitarian process that Palestinians do not recognize it."

          That is not true. The land was bought off Palestinians by the Jews. There was plenty of land in Palestine for both the Jews and Palestinians but the Arabs then as now did not accept the Jews. The Jews asked the Arabs to stay in Israel but the Arab armies invaded the day after their declaration of independence and they lost.

          The Jewish people have a right to that land because they:

          1. Settled and developed the land
          2. The international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and
          3 The territory was captured in defensive wars

          That Muslim people do not accept Israel's right to exist is a religious based reason that they want to be the bosses and rulers of the world. It is a supremacist notion. Religious and Supremacist ideologies have no place in modern society. There can be no peace till they are around.

          SR You said that justice should be to all people. The Jewish people were in Mecca and Medina. There were many Jewish tribes in Medina - they should have the right to return there. The Cypriots should also be allowed and the Armenians and the Southern Sudanese and the Africans of Darfur.
          You talk about 1,000 Palestinian deaths during the Gaza war, over a million people died in Sudan. I dont hear you or Muslims or Muslim countries wanting to condemn that. Why is that?
      • Jun 3 2011: "you don't seem to like playing by the rules"
        you are right I not want to play in your game.
        because this is not game.
        childs in palestine are not killed by toy guns.
        they are killed by war guns and war ballets:
        http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/
        http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2000.html
        http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2010.html

        and homes are not destroyed by toy bulldozers.
        they are destroyed by CAT bulldozers:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
        http://www.ubq.it/kufia/img/upload/1093438935stopcat.jpg
        http://salem-news.com/gphotos/1289206312.jpg

        the real change is in people of U.S.

        about show off I mean programs in Palestine by international organization.
        but generally I believe education. I myself am university teacher and understand you.

        thanks for your teach. and I am open to change and develop. I appreciate.
        TED developed me.
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          Jun 3 2011: SR

          So that you understand my position:
          I am only basically informed of the history of the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis and think, in some respects, it gives me the freedom to look at the situation with more objectivity.
          I believe both should have a place to call home. What I would love to see happen is that they both shared the same land. Afterall, they both seem to claim the same land and both seem to share some of the same history and experiences.... Right?

          (I know this will not be the solution - It's just the vision of someone (me) who thinks that when people get a chance to know each other they generally get along and appreciate each other's personal struggles better)

          Question: Do you believe Israel should have land they can call their own?

          The links you've referenced all seem to be pro-Palestinian/anti-Israeli and yet they also appear to be based and operating and disemminating their information from the US.

          Question: If a pro-Israeli organization started by Iranian nationals where to set up shop in Iran and begin to elicit the support of the Iranian people for the plight of the Israeli's, what would happen to that organization?

          Your view of education and my view of education seem to differ. I believe the opportunities for education take place from the moment of birth and in every situation - in the home, in elementary schools, in the community in which people live, etc. In fact, the education I'm referring to that needs to take place takes place well before the university level.

          Yes, the fact that you are using TED to communicate your ideas is good!!!!
          You are clearly well-educated and have a very well-developed view of the world. But I would respectfully add that in our exchanges you don't give me a sense that you are truly informed of the incredible positives of modern societies. I would suggest you can hold onto your religious beliefs AND live a fuller, more meaningful life. Tolerance is a virtue!
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          Jun 3 2011: As is clear by your links, this is not a game.

          The rules are not a part of a game being played.
          They are the rules established by a multi-national organization specifically for the purpose of managing complex problems. If you don't like the rules, then follow the rules to change the rules. Don't walk away from them as if it WERE a game!!! Be a part of the solution!!!!!!
        • Jun 5 2011: Israeli children are the direct target of Palestinian terrorists acts for many years now
          and in general attacking civilians is propagated openly in your world as a holy war and
          is tottally appreciated and cheered by the mobs
          it is well known that kindergarden education and up in the Palestinian authority is extremely hateful
          your statements as most pf your leftist friends are one sided and extremely hypocratical

          so dear friend
          we intend to live and we truly think youtr policies are meant squarely and directly against that simple fact
      • Jun 4 2011: after ottoman empire collapsed its countries remained without owner. so world powers (wolfs) used (or established) UN to divide Ottoman empire dead body among themselves. and Palestine became for British.
        the league of nations (later UN) said British should consult to Palestine to can grow (British Mandate for Palestine). but British abused this mandate and occupied Palestine by help of Zionism barbarity.
        actually the real reason of this decision of British was to control the Arab nations to not get unity against British. actually it was a trade between Zionism and British. Zionism gets land and pay the price of land by killing and controlling Arab nations against British empire.
        do you know how Ottoman empire collapsed? British said to Arab nations if you help us and make war against Ottoman empire we help you to become independent of Ottoman empire. and stupid Arab Kings (some things like today Mubarak) started war against Ottoman empire. but after collapse of Ottoman Arab Kings received Israel as the reward of helping British to destroy Ottoman empire. then British both destroyed Ottoman and also controlled Arabs from getting power by settling Israel near Arabs.
      • Jun 4 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
        "follow the rules to change the rules. "
        what are those rules to change the rules?
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          Jun 4 2011: Dear SR,
          That is a really good and valid question. How does anyone change the rules when only the US and Israel are making them right now?
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          Jun 5 2011: I know, it's an uphill battle to say the least...
          Let's call the UN what it really is: A vehicle to promote the survival of modern western societies.

          Maybe the rules you want to change need to be changed by creating your own UN that promotes what you believe needs to be protected. Then the two could come up with rules of engagement with each other... Just trying to think imaginatively!!!!

          The UN is not the vehicle for peace in the case of the Israeli/Paliestinian conflict. They've shown that time and time again. The hope for peace lies in the two sides garnering enough trust in each other to make bold decisions forget history and start anew.
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          Jun 5 2011: Jim thank youy for that..I agree ..the U.N. is not a global agency for Peace and of no use here at all unless the US promises not to veto plaetsinian recognition.

          Tose of uswho are An,erican can say that to our president and to our Secretay of State...and should
      • Jun 4 2011: in the history of UN only one resolution was revoked.
        this:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_3379


        List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
        and VETO

        jimmy carter said: i prefer political suicide to leave supporting Israel.


        http://www.haaretz.com/news/jimmy-carter-to-u-s-jews-forgive-me-for-stigmatizing-israel-1.1609

        the US and UN and EU do whatever Israel wants them to do.
      • Jun 4 2011: Dear Jim,
        "Question: Do you believe Israel should have land they can call their own?"
        yes they can have land.
        actually the real problem is not land.
        the real problem is Zionism ideologies. mainly:
        1- racism (we are the selected nation by God and God loves only us and non-Jew are worthless and equal to animals) http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:18

        2- Palestine is promised land by God to Jew. Jew all should be collected in this land and should be clean of any non-jew.. ( they claim because near 3000 years ago two of us (David and Solomon (peace on them) lived in this land for a short time so this land is for us for ever. the land was for Arabs in 3000 years without Jew leaving in Palestine).

        3- destructive war and killing all non-Jew including animals childs women because deviated teaches of old testimonial. today torah is deviated and writed by humans many years after Moses (peace on him). interesting: the story of 30 days howl for death of Moses (peace on him) is reported detail in torah. prophet himself report howl of himself?

        other deviated teaches of torah:
        immigration to Israel land (aliyah) is necessary.
        Yahveh (God) is especial for Jew and does not want other people.
        only jew go to heaven and other to hell.
        Israwli is higher than angel.
        who hit a jew should be killed
        all benefits of people are for jew including their money and land and jew can get the money of non-jew by usury.
        without jew no life existed
        all creatures are made for use of jew and so jew can get the life of other
        killing jew is crime and killing non-jew has reward by god
        a jew should not save a non-jew even if fallen in a hole should put a stone on hole.
        sex with non-jew has no pinish because they are animal and animal needs no marrage.
        jew should treate non-jew as animals.

        God sent 39 book to Moses (peace on him)?!
        Researchers say all versions of old testimonial are written at least near 2500 years after death of moses (peace on him)
        http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:79
        • Jun 5 2011: Dear Ahmedi I would like to say " friend" but you are certaily nt one
          yor letters are abusing and I'll try to get some facts right: responding to yor numerals:

          1) Israel as a state does not support or represents these opinions - while elected leaders in the Palestinian authorities certainly do, in accordance with the very wide spread fundamentalist Islam movements.

          2 ) this was recoded in the Bible , Historically there was a Jewish kingdom for many hundreds of years in the land f Israel, and a continus settelment at all times
          infact many Palestiniabn arabs are cnverted descendents of the old Jewish settelments.
          since most jews were deprted from the Land of Israel by the Romans
          abutr 500 years before the Muhammad and the Islam.
          every jew often repeats " nest year in Jerusalem" for the last two thousand years/

          3) insulting the scriptures is a low matter, if you are really intressted there actually is an answer in the Jewish tradition/
          inthe Talmud, Baba Batra (the last gate) the question about how the passing away of Moses peace be on him, is described if the Torah was indeed written by him , two assumptions are given, one is that Jshua Bin -Noon, his predecessr wrote these specific lines, the other is that they were written by moses peace beon him himsellf, dictated gtfo him as all the Trah , by divine inspiratin, the page wet by his tears/
          there is NO mention in the Jewish scriptures of yor fabrication that a jew will be rewarded if killing a non-Jew,, par consequence, there lies exactly the source f the Muslim distinction between those living inther " huse of swrd Bei El Harb, that is, us, the infidels
          and those living in the " house of Peace Beit- El SALAM, whch are you Muslims,
          (Iguess all you humanist champions f the Palestinian cause cn jump up now and
          prove that this is racism, smehw , miraculously, as you often do, against the Arabs?t

          more immediately
        • Jun 5 2011: One of the pinciples of Judaism is " light onto the nations" and the numbers of Noble prize laureates ( abut 20 %, in medicine 40 %) may serve.
          on the whole, your letter is overtly antisemitic,
          but this is no surprise, as this is truly the intrest of many of Israel's categorists

          Zionsm has become aa poweful as it is after the holocaust,
          if the Jews had a state of their own most would have been saved
          but this, I suspect, to your great sorrow, again.
      • Jun 4 2011: ADDED:
        Please note Zionism is different of Jew.
        there are many Zionist not Jew and many Jew not Zionist like:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Dear Jim,
        "Question: If a pro-Israeli organization started by Iranian nationals where to set up shop in Iran and begin to elicit the support of the Iranian people for the plight of the Israeli's, what would happen to that organization?"

        after Iran revolution Imam Khomeini said:
        US is great Satan and Israel is small Saran. and said Israel is a cancer tumor for world and should be wiped off from map.
        Iran absolutely has no relation to US and Israel and import if any Israel made product into Iran is banned and any support of Israel is banned in Iran.
        in scenario you said it will be closed immediately like US embassy in Iran.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Israel_relations
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhollah_Khomeini
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution

        "you can hold onto your religious beliefs AND live"
        you have a dark Image of religion.
        you do not know what means religions in other side of world.
        "our religion is the selfsame as our politics and our politics is selfsame as our religion"
        Hassan Modarres (Iranian religious leader and politician and a leader in revolution that banished and terrorized by Shah, the friend of US in middle east)
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Modarres
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          Jun 4 2011: Again: toleration is the key. I'm not you and your not me. You believe religion and politics are the same and I don't. You can live in my country and practice your religion, I can't live in your country and speak freely without punishment.
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          Jun 5 2011: Dr. Stephen Zunes has a brand new article on Netanyahu and the peace process published June 4, 2011. The article indicates that Obama may be fighting a losing battle with congress backiing Netanyahu rather than their own president.

          http://www.truthout.com/netanyahus-speech-and-congressional-democrats-embrace-extremism/1307128075
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          Jun 5 2011: Interesting analysis, thanks for that Debra....

          Obama is doing a tightrope walk. He is a master at this, but when it comes to international politics and affairs, it takes more than a master tightrope walker. It takes cooperation on all sides. It takes compromise on all sides. This is not a "war" where there can be a legitimate winner and loser. There must be a win/win solution or it will not end.

          I have nothing but distain for our US congress. They are the main obstacle in the way of lots of crucial changes that Obama is trying valiantly to make happen.
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          Jun 5 2011: SR - "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's" -Jesus of Nazareth

          In my view, unless there is separation of church/mosque/temple, etc. and state, there will always be human atrocities commited in the name of God. It's a matter of growing/changing evolving religious beliefs in response to the natural evolution of humanity.
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          Jun 5 2011: Jim another important statement with which I agree completely..our own Congress is an obstacle to peace between Plaestine and Israele.

          we who are American can and should say that to the head of each party and to our own Congressional reps.
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      Jun 1 2011: Jim, I like what you have proposed.

      Edit

      I have to add though that I think Palestine needs a clear and safe access to a port without interference to sustain itself and not be constantly embargoed.
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        Jun 1 2011: A nice point on 'port without interference'

        Jim - the Jews have a state it is the Palestinians that deserve a state. Obama's call for pre-1967 borders seem to be the best way out – it is important to note that Israel prime minister refused pre-1967 agreement because of, in his words “ demographic changes” . I do not know what you think about that but it makes no sense to any neutral onlooker. I cannot imagine Israel proposing the pre-1967 agreement while the Palestinians disagree because of ‘demographic changes’.

        That tells you the two sides are not equal on international front - Prime Minister Netanyahu addressed US congress and he said this.

        When you have two unequal partners in a negotiation it usually produces a bad result.

        The only solution is for Prime Minister Netanyahu to be ready to listen to Obama, wikileaks documents actually revealed that the delay for peace has been from Israel even when Palestine negotiators were ready to sacrifice more than the people could imagine.
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          Jun 1 2011: Interesting points.

          My hope is that Netanyahu is posturing and will be ready to compromise when and if it gets to a point of serious negotiations. I have great respect for Obama as a visionary and leader. It remains to bne seen if he is a leader of leaders...

          The key thing in my view is not about territory, I think they can get the teritorial desputes settled. It's about trust about the right to exist. To my knowledge, Israel does not deny that Palestinians have a right to exist but the same is not true with the Palestinians.
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          Jun 1 2011: Hi Ehis, can you bring that Wikileaks information you cited here? It might be helpful.
        • Jun 2 2011: Dear Ehis Odijie,
          how you an explain contradictions between what Obama say to his people and what says to Israel?
          http://www.aipac.org/PC/webPlayer/2011-sunday-obama.asp

          http://www.aipac.org/~/media/Publications/Policy%20and%20Politics/AIPAC%20Analyses/Issue%20Memos/2009/AIPAC_Memo_-_Obama-Netanyahu_Meeting_Important_Opportunity.pdf

          obama is seeking for support for advertise to have votes.
          no diffrence between obama or bush. all presidents have other president.
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          Jun 3 2011: S.R. Ahmadi:

          Obama is a politician. He is working the power structures with the means at his disposal.
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          Jun 3 2011: I agree. What is needed is cooperation and a willingness to overcome every obstacle in the name of peace.
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          Jun 3 2011: Prof Ahmahdi

          .The AIPAC piece you cited ( the only one I have read so far) doesn't conflict with the prseidents' Mideast Speech..if any thing it gives some hard realities which I have referred to throughout my commnetray here..that the U.S. is being squeezed out of the middle East..that Israel can't stand alone..that we haven't much to stand on..now is the moment to work it out.Nothing inconistent there.

          Not truthul though, either I'd say.

          And still very clearly hardly neutral..cleraly anti Palisinean

          In fact when you put it all together it is sort o like saying

          ok you guys are all uniited againt the U.S. and against Istael.. we are not abandoning Isreal..our interests and theirs are one.

          Not even clear to me what excatly theu think tey have going that would chnage in nay way the clear balance against both the US and Israel

          Ok you're winning..let's settle thtis right now???
        • Jun 4 2011: "Lindsay Newland Bowker"
          please know AIPAC better. it is president of all US presidents.

          "Ok you're winning..let's settle thtis right now??? "
          sorry, you mean settle what?
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          Jun 9 2011: @ Ahmadi what did I mean by "Ok You'r winning let;s's lsettle this right now..that was part of my characterization of the U.S. Israeli position on settling the border dispute...
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        Jun 3 2011: Yes, good catch!
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      Jun 1 2011: well the original question was did Obama throw Israeel under the bus..to which I cannow say with a considerable background ..thanks to all of you and my own reserach and thinking inspired by you..

      no he didn't

      but he could have said more to put more pressure onboth parties to resolve this now and forever.
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      Jun 2 2011: Jim, the real issue is about territory not right to exist. What is right to exist? Let me build on that. The Palestinians believe Israel is lodging on their land, how can you one identifies another who seats on his land as the landlord? So, the right to exist issue is part of a bigger problem which is the occupation of Israel.

      President Obama is the only one in my opinion that can solve this; the main problem is that Israel keeps receiving a blank check from US and UN.

      The question of if ' Obama threw Israel under the bus' is completely irrelevant, it makes no sense. This is a problem between two sides and the best Obama can do is pretend to be neutral. I wonder if folks would ever ask if Obama threw Palestine under the bus . .
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        Jun 2 2011: Palestine has not just been thrown under the bus. It has just been road kill for some time in international affairs. I think your point in turning the tables is a good one. I was pretty dismayed in reading the articles from Al Jezera and Wikileaks that the concessions made by the Palestinians were diminished and ridiculed as 'demonstrating their weakness' rather than hailed as a pound of flesh given up in order to gain peace.
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        Jun 3 2011: Ehis:

        You could be right - and if you are, things aren't as bad as I thought!!!

        When one group of people (Palestinian Hamas) refuses to recognise that another group of people have a right to exist as a nation state, then you have a much bigger problem. To take the two groups and put them side by side in their own territories is like pitting two gladiators against each other.

        The harder issue to solve in my view is trust and respect for each other.

        I sometimes wish all the power brokers and military and politicians and religious leaders would just all take a long vacation and leave the people alone to live together.

        "You may say I'm a dreamer
        But I'm not the only one
        I hope some day you'll join us
        And the world will live as one."

        -John Lennon "Imagine"
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          Jun 3 2011: Noam Chomsky addresses the idea of Palestine and the Arab states not acknowledging Israel's right to exist. He basically calls it a 'red herring'. It is not required in international law. I will try to see if I can find something where Chomsky of Finkelstein address this issue.

          Jim have you had a chance to view any of the videos I posted which talk about the inequities in the reality of life in Palestine?
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          Jun 3 2011: Yeh, the whole idea about "acknowledging Israel's right to exist" is total bullshit. When was Canada ever forced to acknowledge the US's right to exist? Or vice versa? Or any country required to acknowledge another country's right to exist? Or Israel required to acknowledge Palestine's right to exist?

          Hamas with their insistence on Israel's destruction emerged out of a power vacuum where Palestinian compromise only resulted in increasing Israeli settlements. When the Palestinians see a path towards progress they will take it.

          Look at Fatah right now. They are compromising in every way possible with Israel. Is it halting the settlements? No. Hamas' intransigence is necessary until Israel makes positive steps to meaningful compromise.
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          Jun 3 2011: Tim. I hope your asessment o Obama is right.

          The alternative is almost too painful to bear
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          Jun 3 2011: @debra..additional cite..and what if that was really the U.S. pursuing a regime chnage? What if Isreal waa doing our bidding..do what we asked.

          Waht is it wasn't isareal initating it and us saying nothing?
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          Jun 4 2011: I think this is a youtube video that addresses your question somewhat. I think it should also have a reference to 'Israel's right to exist'

          http://youtu.be/xEi5ssUImaY
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        Jun 3 2011: You know after spending quite a bit of time at Democracy now on this issue ( from links provided at the separate conversation on Iran--tu Debra) I now see this whole qurestion differently.
        The theme I see at Democracy Now's covereage is that the US has not only not restrained but encouraged , supported and lied about the siege on Gaza in efforts to bring about a regime change..to topple Hamas.

        Hamas is portrayed there ( and by Palestinian Christians ege Sabeel) as a people's government and contrasted with the fomer corrupt PLO whom Democracy now says we the US want to re instate. ( I'll try to bring those cite's here via edit)

        .So back to the original question, if the story as told at Democracy Now is true. the US is part o the problem and must get out of the regime change business..
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          Jun 3 2011: Its interesting that I found that source as I followed other links. It confirms and supports what I have been told by people close to me who have no preconcieved 'side' in the issue but who have been there and seen it first hand.
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          Jun 3 2011: Now maybe you'll start listening to what S.R.Ahmadi has to say. He has a valid viewpoint.

          But although Obama has to operate under the prevailing power structures he does have the desire to find a workable solution to the conflict. And the insight to realize that there are two valid viewpoints.
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          Jun 3 2011: Richard Falk is Albert G. Milbank Professor Emeritus of International Law at Princeton University and Visiting Distinguished Professor in Global and International Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He has authored and edited numerous publications spanning a period of five decades, most recently editing the volume International Law and the Third World: Reshaping Justice (Routledge, 2008).He is currently serving his third year of a six year term as a United Nations Special Rapporteur on Palestinian human rights.

          "Since that shocking incident of a year ago, the Arab Spring has changed the regional atmosphere, but it has not ended the unlawful blockade of Gaza, or the suffering inflicted on the Gazan population over the four-year period of coerced confinement. Such imprisonment of an occupied people has been punctuated by periodic violence, including the sustained all-out Israeli attack for three weeks at the end of 2008, during which even women, children, and the disabled were not allowed to leave the deadly killing fields of Gaza.

          It is an extraordinary narrative of Israeli cruelty and deafening international silence. The silence was broken only by the brave civil society initiatives in recent years that brought both the symbolic relief of empathy and human solidarity, as well as the token amounts of substantive assistance in the form of much needed food and medicine. It is true that the new Egypt has opened the Rafah crossing a few days ago, allowing several hundred Gazans to leave or return to Gaza on a daily basis, but Rafah is not currently equipped to handle goods, and is available only to people, and so the blockade of imports and exports continues in force, and may even be intensified as Israel vents its anger over the Fatah/Hamas unity agreement. "

          Richard requested that I provide another voice beside Finkelstein and Chomsky. I think this is a good one.


          "
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          Jun 4 2011: This news item doesnt seem to gel with your provision of "an extraordinary narrative of Israeli cruelty and deafening international silence."

          "Tales of torture, slavery in Sinai"

          "Two women from Eritrea - whose identities are hidden - came separately to Israel seeking a better future.

          "I thought things would be much different from Africa," say one of the women. "I got information from people who already arrived before me in Israel that the lifestyle is much better than Eritrea."

          What they didn't know was that the men they paid $2,500 to bring them to the Israeli border would repeatedly beat, rape and starve them during their long journey.

          "When I left my country I was optimistic and I thought I would reach my final destination, but at the point where I was with the Bedouin in the Sinai, I just gave up everything and said this is the end."

          Theirs are not isolated stories. In 2010 alone more than 14,000 African migrants crossed Israel's southern border with Egypt - nearly a 170 percent rise from the year before, according to government figures. And migrant aid organizations say with that surge has come an increase in horrific first-hand accounts of systematic torture, rape, and slavery, across the border, in the Sinai Peninsula."

          I wonder why they are fleeing the free, Arab spring paradise of Egypt and coming to that repressive cruel state of Israel?

          http://thecnnfreedomproject.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/01/tales-of-torture-slavery-in-sinai/
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          Jun 4 2011: Richard what would be evidence that would convince you? You are poking sticks at the words of an American Law prof from Princeton who is on UN counsel of human rights. Whose word would convince you?
          If there are atrocities happening, would you want them to stop?
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          Jun 4 2011: I am not poking sticks at anyone. I am offering evidence. If the evidence contradicts world renowned professors, is that not allowed?

          What I am offering is evidence. What you are offering is opinions. There is a difference.
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        Jun 3 2011: Ehis, I agree that Obama has the skills/ability to make things happen.

        Tim, I can't argue with your pro-Palestinian statements because I am not well-versed enough and I respect and agree your take on things in almost every instance; but when you say, "When was Canada ever forced to acknowledge the US's right to exist? Or vice versa? Or any country required to acknowledge another country's right to exist?" I think you've got an apples and oranges thing going on. They're just not the same thing. Am I not understanding something?

        It's my understanding that both Israelis and Palestinians claim the rights to the same land, right? Israel currently occupies it, I know, But it was the result of the 1947 agreement that gave Israel the rights to the land. They didn't take it - it was given to them. (Minus the territory gained after the 1967 war).

        I can imagine it must be painful for the Palestinians to see the land that they feel is theirs occupied by someone else, but the opportunity is here for them to re-claim a significant part of it and to re-establish a formal world identity. Putting what's happened aside and instead thinking "future" is what both parties should be concentrating on - and What Obama's team should be positioning them to do (and others who are genuinely interested in the future of Palestine and Israel).

        Yes, the UN has not been an effective conduit for peace in that region. I still think if the right "buttons" are pushed they can play a role in the process. Obama may be the right person to push the right buttons (I'm a dreamer).

        And there are other organizations that could help to bring what's needed to the table in order for the two sides to agree. Just don't let the past prevent them from moving into the future.
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          Jun 3 2011: Jim, You really aren't understanding something. Palestine has been grovelling for peace and the US and Israel are not allowing it to happen. Two major scholars- both American are fighting to get the facts out there to a media and a country that will not hear it. Please take a look at some of what I have posted by Chomsky and Finkelstein (who is the child of holocaust survivors) or read the Goldstone report which I have also posted here which was done by a respected Israeli judge commissioned by the UN who charges Israel with war crimes and human rights violations.

          These people are living in worse than the Warsaw ghetto and enduring torture that has gone unreported by even Amnesty International because their funding was threatened.It not fair for someone to argue strongly for one side without taking the time to find out the truth.

          ****Correction: I stated above that Goldstone was Israeli- that is wrong. He is Jewish but from South Africa.
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          Jun 3 2011: I suppose no ones opinions count other than Chomsky’s and Finkelstein's?

          Re:the Golstone Report into war crimes committed during the Gaza war.

          Operation Cast Lead was launched in response to repeated rocket attacks on Israeli territory by militants in Gaza.

          The following are some facts:

          1. It was initiated by the 57 member nations of the Organisation of Islamic Conference
          Al Jazeera http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/10/20091021112649368100.html

          2. The Palestinian Authority asked for the council's vote on the report to be delayed. http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/2011/01/2011126123125167974.html

          3. The study's author Goldstone RETRACTED his conclusions on the basis of knowledge not given to him given to him during the time of compiling his report.
          He said "civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy" [by the Israelis] and "If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document."

          4. Goldstone REAFFIRMED his assessment THAT WAR CRIMES WERE COMMITTED BY HAMAS AS A MATTER OF POLICY DURING THE CONFLICT, as ‘its rockets were purposefully and indiscriminately aimed at civilian targets’.

          5. However, he explains that such allegations against Israel were based on lack of evidence, rather than substantiated proof:

          ‘The allegations of intentionality by Israel were based on the deaths of and injuries to civilians in situations where our fact-finding mission had no evidence on which to draw any other reasonable conclusion…

          ‘I regret that our fact-finding mission did not have such evidence explaining the circumstances in which we said civilians in Gaza were targeted, because it probably would have influenced our findings about intentionality and war crimes.’
          http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/goldstone-regrets-report-into-gaza-war
          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12949016

          6. It is on the basis of this report that many countries want to condemn Israel for war crimes.
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          Jun 3 2011: Richard, I promise you that I will look at and read the articles you post (as I usually do) if you agree to read or watch some of those that i have posted. At least you are talking with me again and that must be a positive step.

          Every year the whole world lines up to sanction Israel and it is only Israel and the USA on the other side (never even your country or mine to join them).
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          Jun 3 2011: I am there with you Debra..

          It is so much more comfortable isn't it in our former littel cococcoons.

          This is tough stuff being put here trying to see and understand the whole pricture

          asking for th truth to speak.

          t
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          Jun 3 2011: Richard,
          I feel that the first two links you supplied are making my case. Who else would initiate and investigation into human rights abuses but the country upon which they were perpetrated?

          Quote from your article:
          Will the council's adoption of the Goldstone report impact the way Israelis conduct war after hundreds of Palestinian civilians were killed during the war on Gaza?

          The Israelis already understood the importance of the impact of this report and that is why you find them leading a very strong campaign to impede the Goldstone report.

          You visited Gaza in March 2009 and the OIC pledged $100mn for reconstruction in the wake of the war. What has happened to that money, has it been channelled to Gaza?

          The OIC has ensured that 37 per cent of that has been delivered through NGOs, not only in the Muslim world, but from Europe as well. We are really happy to have European NGOs cooperating with us.
          A major NGO from Norway donated $21mn worth of medical equipment and facilities.

          No, reconstruction is not happening in Gaza because Israel does not allow any reconstruction material to be introduced into the Gaza Strip. So, this is true. We cannot do this, no one can do this. Unless the UN or UNRWA find a way to do this.
          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Please supply evidence for the veracity of your statements 3 and 5 .

          As to point 4 - what the heck are the Palestinians' fighting with -stones? The embargo is absolute. They can bearly get essentials in past the Israelis.
          AS to the so called 'retraction' of the Goldstone report I offer this:
          http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/what-exactly-did-goldstone-retract-from-his-report-on-gaza-1.355454
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          Jun 3 2011: 4 the record:

          According to Goldstone, the McGowan Davis report findings indicate that Israel did not have an explicit policy of causing intentional harm to civilians. This is the "retraction" everyone is rejoicing over.

          However, reading the final UN report reveals that the committee didn't come anywhere near that conclusion. On the contrary. The committee states repeatedly that according to the information presented to it, "Israel does not appear to have conducted a general review of doctrine regarding military targets" (i.e. Israel did not discuss at all on which targets it is legitimate to open fire and on which it is not ).

          Goldstone's op-ed seems to imply that the committee of experts, as opposed to his commission, was afforded the cooperation of the Israeli authorities. It turns out this is untrue. The American judge was not treated any differently by Israel and she even complains of this in the report. She notes that because of this she had to rely solely on public government reports, which relied on human rights organizations.

          She also stresses that the committee did not succeed in ascertaining whether Israel has indeed investigated all 36 of the incidents discussed in the Goldstone report. This, she says, exemplifies the vagueness of the information put at her disposal. And as if this were not enough, the report also points to flaws in a series of investigations concerning civilian deaths, among them women and children.

          In the best case, those who are rejoicing over Goldstone's op-ed have not bothered to read the UN reports. In the worst case, they have read the reports and have chosen to keep them out of the public eye. Both UN reports state that despite 36 Israel Defense Forces investigations of the grave incidents mentioned in the Goldstone report, only one indictment has been filed. Moreover, both reports reach the conclusion that "given the seriousness of the allegations, the military investigations thus far appear to have produced very little.
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          Jun 3 2011: "I feel that the first two links you supplied are making my case." - What is your case?

          My points are

          * Operation Cast Lead was launched in response to repeated rocket attacks on Israeli territory by militants in Gaza.

          * "civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy" [by the Israelis]

          * They were intentionally targeted by Hamas

          "point 4 - what the heck are the Palestinians' fighting with -stones?

          Not very politely asked.

          Besides rifles, automatic weapons, explosives and Anti-Tank Missiles, they have Multiple Rocket Launchers, Short Range Artillery Rockets and Mortars which they were bombarding the Israelis with.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_domestic_weapons_production

          "The embargo is absolute. They can bearly get essentials in past the Israelis." It is my understanding (I have read) that Israelis were restricting only certain items that could be used for weapons against them. Seeing that they are constantly bombarded - not an unreasonable endeavor.

          I never said that Palestinians dont have a raw deal but the fault for that ALSO lies with those of them bent on trying to harm and destroy Israel.

          Here is another view of Gaza
          http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001127.html

          Compare those lush markets with the pictures from Darfur and Southern Sudan. Is the OIC sending any aid or protesting about those?
          http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=darfur+genocide&hl=en&rlz=1C1CHMY_enNZ358NZ378&biw=707&bih=447&prmd=ivnslb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=HXfpTeOLEZDOvQPrvYnNDw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CA8Q_AUoAQ

          This is my last exchange with you on this.
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          Jun 4 2011: That is absolutely no surprise. I don't respect Israel's tactics either

          I offer you evidence of world recognized professors and you offer me what?. Who the heck is Tom Gross?

          You really have to stretch your own capacity to close your eyes to facts when you offer me evidence of home made weapons of the Palestinians when I have posted the current evidence that American tax payers are giving $30 billion in weapons to Israel in the next 10 years on top of the billions already provided.

          If you and your kids had to face the weapons would you stand in Palestine or in Israel, would you rather dodge Irsael' heat seeking projectiles or the puny hand made rockets of the Palestinians.

          Neither are good but to equate them is more than ridiculous!
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          Jun 4 2011: "I offer you evidence of world recognized professors and you offer me what?. Who the heck is Tom Gross? "

          You are offering the opinions of of world recognized professors.

          Does it matter who Tom Gross is? Does it matter who posts the pictures?

          Did you have a look at the pictures of Gaza? I'm not saying that poverty is not there like anywhere else, but this is not Darfur or Southern Sudan.

          "If you and your kids had to face the weapons would you stand in Palestine or in Israel, would you rather dodge Irsael' heat seeking projectiles or the puny hand made rockets of the Palestinians."

          What is your purpose in giving those two choices?

          Those "puny hand made rockets of the Palestinians" though not accurate kill people where they land. Those "puny hand made rockets of the Palestinians" were being constantly fired into Israel, with the objective to cause maximum civilian damage.

          "Between 2001 and January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries, as well as widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life"
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

          "The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by United Nations, European Union and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch."

          There were no corresponding terrorism rockets from Israel.
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          Jun 4 2011: The source of information does matter. That photo (yes I did pay you the courtesy of viewing your information) has no way for me to validate it. It could be anywhere. It could be right where you say it is but built as an Iraeli mall as most of the building in occupiled territories do not belong to Palestine. Therefore, I can't know how much weight to put on what I have seen. I am sorry- it does not rise to credible or reliable informtion at this time.

          The death toll on both sides is indefensible - that is why it has to stop.

          My point in giving you the two choices was to shake you out of what I perceive to be too narrow a focus. Would we make the same bold stand if our own children had to face the choices we appear happy to allow the people effected by this discussion to face? I do not think so. At least - I would want someone to shout "FouL" if my kids were facing it.

          You give me stats or how many rocket attacks- I challenge you to take a look at how many have died on each side. It is despicable and telling and more than that- it amounts to serious human rights violations that keep happening because we are content to wallow in intellectual positions rather that elevate ourselves to care about human lives.

          Palestine is in the right in the International courts. PERIOD. Israel has illegally occupied those lands and terrorized that popluation long enough. If someone occupied New Zealand or Canada I am pretty sure that we would be calling ourselves freedom fighters.
        • Jun 4 2011: Dear Tim,
          "find a workable solution to the conflict."
          The solution is a referendum in Palestine and asking what all people want.

          Dear Richard,
          Do you know who is the stack holder of Aljazeera?
          if you want to make a misslie with tools amiable in your kitchen then how much is the accuracy of that missile?
          if a Palestinian make a rocket do you know what is the result?
          At night when he sleep is worry to become one of these:
          http://addameer.info/?cat=18

          Or if be clever and Israeli soldiers can not find him then:

          Israeli fighter jets fired several rockets at two Palestinians early on Wednesday as they were riding a motorcycle on the road from Khan Younis to Rafah. One person was killed and another sustained injuries in the aerial attack, Reuters cited a statement released by the Islamic Jihad resistance movement.
          The development comes as Israeli warplanes have repeatedly targeted the coastal strip during the recent days.
          http://www.presstv.ir/detail/172243.html
          http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/79692.html

          US Apache helicopters are flying above the Palestinians.
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      Jun 3 2011: If the UN would have been successful, to any extend, at "peacekeeping" since it was formed, it would have spared many genocides and the lives of millions.
      It didn't seem to have much influence over the US when they ran, heads down, to punish the "terrorists" all over the Middle-East after September 11.
      I'm sure we all remember the Grand-guignolesque speech, at the UN, about WMDs in Irak.
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        Jun 3 2011: Right..everything I have learned through this conversation supports Chomsky's premise of Manufactured Consent..(see Debar's link below)

        I am almost ashamed to realize that I have been carrying a rosy totally uniformed idea about the U.N. around since I was a child. Four months ago I would have dismissed what you say out of hand ..and now I see it very differently.

        In this matter, the U.N has though spoken and voted many times against Israel , with good cause, and the U.S. has used its veto power and even where the u.S. hasn;t used it's veto power we have just gone on supporting Isreal in whatever supports the interests the U.S. is pursuing..which don't coincide with what the interests of "We the People" might be...

        We the people(that would be me..startring with me) can start paying more attention to how the U.S. uses its veto and in this matter "we the people" can let the President & Hillary we are not happy with the US regime strange foreign policy stratgey. We can let Obama know we want Plaestine recognized as a nation..that we want them to choose their own leadership..to continue with Hamas i that us what they choose
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          Jun 3 2011: It takes courage for any of us to reverse our position and it is an admirable act when one does. Lindsay I would give you a thumbs up but I just got another 'bink' when I tried. So kudos for courage and integrity!
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        Jun 3 2011: Since 1915 we have had the following Genocides:

        1. The Armenian Genocide, Turks massacred 1 million Christian Armenians, many more raped and injured
        2. The Assyrian Genocide, Turks massacred 40,000 Christian Assysrians
        3. The Greek genocide, Christian Greeks formed over 18% of the population of Turkey, now virtually none
        4. The Dersim genocide, Turks massacred about 70,000 non-Turkish people after Turks were resettled in their area to make it more "Turkish"
        5. Stalin - about 500,000 Don Cossacks, the Katyn massacre of over 20,000 Polish officers, many others
        6. The holocaust - 6 million Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Mentally Handicapped, Poles, Russians murdered by the Nazis,
        7. Croatia Ustazi (including Muslim Bosnaiks) under the Nazis killed about 300,000 Serbs, Jews and Romani
        8. The Indian Partition - about 1 million Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims killed
        After WW2
        9. 1,585,000 Germans were killed in Poland and 197,000 were killed in Czechoslovakia in interment camps
        10. African slave revolt in Zanzibar 2,000–4,000 Arabs killed
        11. Guatemala 1968-1996 - 200,000 people died
        12. Bangladesh War of 1971 - 1 - 3 million civilians killed by Pakistan Army
        13. Burundi 1972 and 1993
        14. Rwanda 1994 - 800,000 people killed
        15. Equatorial Guinea - Out of a population of 300,000, an estimated 80,000 killed
        16. Cambodia - approximately 1.7 million Cambodians killed between 1975–1979
        17. East Timor - upto 200,000 Christians killed by the Indonesian army
        18. Sabra-Shatila, Lebanon Christians massacred Palestinians - 700-3500
        19. Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Iraq (Kurds, Shias by S Hussain)
        20, Srebrenica Serbs massacred 8,372 Muslims
        21. Darfur, Sudan -
        22. Southern Sudan - Racist and religious massacres Over a million killed, raped enslaved. President of Sudan is indicted
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          Jun 3 2011: This is a sad but important set of facts Richard. Can you tell me what you are pointing to please? I sincerely want to understand and consider your point.
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        Jun 4 2011: "If the UN would have been successful, to any extend, at "peacekeeping" since it was formed, it would have spared many genocides and the lives of millions."
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          Jun 4 2011: I think you are right but it is pretty tough to be successful when one nation chooses to veto justice.
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      Jun 3 2011: Another interesting video of Noam Chomsky in an interview about the Palestine/Israel situation:

      http://youtu.be/_6TgL8ruF4M
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      Jun 3 2011: I had missed these two further statements by Obama on what U.S. policy is"

      (1) That the US backs and will support Israel in it soccupation of the west bank
      (2) that the U.S. will veto any vote to have the U.N. acknolwedge Palestine as a state.

      http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/23/headlines#1

      More proof that our government has actively supported Isreaels transgressions and is not at all seeking separet but equal status for Palastine and is not neutral as to where the borders should be.

      Maybe we need to ammend our list to inckude a series of things ou rown givernmnet must do to get out of the way of peace between Palestine and Israel.
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      Jun 3 2011: Here is the direct response to Obamas speach with critique by Norman Finkelstein where he speaks directly to the 1967 borders:

      http://youtu.be/nfpVlUESBVc
    • Jun 6 2011: Dear Jim,
      "SR - "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's" -Jesus of Nazareth"
      Nice saying.
      Sayings or prophets are like drugs in a pharmacy. Each drug is for a sick. If you use incorrect drug for a sick possibly die.
      Assume a powerful emperor only think to his own benefit and does not serve people end even kill them and people fear to be killed or do not know truth. Then a clever man like you know the truth and wants to help people and make change but does not have any power or soldier. So if he start to protest again emperor then what happens? Simply killed like a mosquito under the foot of a elephant and finish! So the clever man says:
      " "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's" -Jesus of Nazareth" and waits for a suitable opportunity.

      But when the clever man has min. required power to make change then the "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's" -Jesus of Nazareth" is not workable and other drug is suitable.
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        Jun 7 2011: I disagree that "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's" is just "a nice saying" and analogous to a drug. Are the wise words of Muhammad analogous to drugs as well?
        It is wisdom that the world thirsts for... Let's not confuse it with modern medicine.
        • Jun 7 2011: you consider the case of Ceasar same as the case of today?
          does that saying apply to today problem?
          "Are the wise words of Muhammad analogous to drugs as well?"
          yes, we should first should know a saying is applicable to what condition/time/place then use that application. although most sayings are universal and applicable in any time/place. but not all.
          "It is wisdom that the world thirsts for"
          it is not the only wise saying. there are other wise sayings seem more wise for today context.
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        Jun 7 2011: To me, "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's" means that there needs to be a separation between church and state. You've said before that Islam does not recognize that separation but instead merges the two.

        With respect, I suggest you try harder to see that this is an important concept towards living peacefully together. Is there a better idea for humankind???
        • Jun 8 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
          politics is built inside the Islam and is mixed withing Islam. its like the stomach in the human body.
          lets say a Persian poem (concept):
          some one wanted to make tattoo of a lion picture on his back and some one started with ink and needle to make the lion and the man had pain and fear and said:
          man: what are you doing?
          painter: I am painting the tail of lion.
          man: leave the tail. pain the rest.
          painter: OK.
          and started the rest of body of lion.
          man: what are yo doing?
          painter: I am painting the head of lion.
          man: leave the head. do the rest.
          painter: OK.
          man: what are you doing?
          painter: I am painting mane of lion.
          man: leave it.
          painter: who has seen a lion without the tail and head and mane ?!!

          what you say will not be Islam. it is American Islam and also called "light Islam"
          Islam is Islam when it is complete.

          there are many many detailed instructions about how to war, how to treat with captives how to walk in war, how to look, and every details of war is defined in Islam.

          also please know Islam is based on peace. and if humans be real humans Islam never starts the war.
          from near 30 years ago that Islamic revolution started and people kicked out the Shah Iran had only one war and it was imposed to Iran and supported by more than 50 country of world. and I am sure Islamic Iran will never start any war. only defend.
          you do not have a correct Image of Islam and see Islam as:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

          Islam is religion of peace. lets distinguish disbeliever emperors made wars in the name of Islam. please distinguish between Islam and Muslim.

          war and peace is independent of religion.
          what makes war is greed and love of more and more world and material (money, land, power,.. and immediately death) more than need.
          please do relate wars to religion.
          I hope you have a real Image of Israel Palestine land is not enough for Zionists. they want all the world. even more.
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        Jun 7 2011: SR - I don't want to miss this opportunity to seize upon your analogy that religion is a drug.... Where should I begin.... Let's start here: What drug do you need to take so that you can see the atrocity of the Jewish holocaust?

        No, lets start here: "God is a concept by which we measure our pain" -John Lennon
        • Jun 8 2011: Dear Jim,
          "Let's start here: What drug do you need to take so that you can see the atrocity of the Jewish holocaust?"
          no need to drug. I already see it. then what you want to say?

          "No, lets start here: "God is a concept by which we measure our pain" -John Lennon "
          I do not know what kind of God he means.

          I know human=body+soul and death is not finish of life an we should a new life after death and satisfying Allah is more important than satisfying people.

          can you prove there is nothing after death?
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        Jun 8 2011: Where's the logic?

        ME: "Let's start here: What drug do you need to take so that you can see the atrocity of the Jewish holocaust?"
        YOU: "no need to drug. I already see it. then what you want to say?"

        ME:You've said repeatedly that you have not made your mind up about the magnitude of the holocaust and in fact if it ever happened the way history books say. Please complete your homework on this all-important subject and get back to the world on your findings. No drugs required - just an open mind.


        ME: "No, lets start here: "God is a concept by which we measure our pain" -John Lennon "
        YOU: "I do not know what kind of God he means"

        ME: Are you saying there is more than one God?

        I actually believe that life is eternal - just not going to heaven or hell.
        • Jun 8 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
          sorry I had some misunderstanding.
          I thought you mean about atrocity happening in Palestine.
          but no much difference. both atrocity happening in Palestine and also in holocaust (I do not know it happened or not or if happened in what scale? some say the gas chambers were for cleaning the cloths of workers. it is not easy to find truth about it.

          "Please complete your homework on this all-important subject and get back to the world on your findings. No drugs required - just an open mind. "
          it needs much research and lets assume it happened bu in small scale.)
          I am not historical researcher but I do not believe any thing I hear about holocaust. lets assume it happened but in small scale. then?

          "ME: Are you saying there is more than one God? "
          no. only one.

          "I actually believe that life is eternal - just not going to heaven or hell. "
          is there any other place after Judgement day?
          show at least one valid religions evidence from any of Abraham religions.
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        Jun 8 2011: YOU: "Politics is built inside the Islam and is mixed withing Islam. its like the stomach in the human body."

        ME: The stomach? There are good ideas and there are bad ideas. My opinion is this is a very bad idea!!!! First of all, you've substituted the word "politics" for "state". When I say separation of church/mosque/temple/etc. and state, I mean governance - not "politics". Let politics be soaked in religion for all I care - just be sure that our laws and constitution don't allow any religion to determine what is and is not just for all humans - not just Muslims, christians, jews, etc.


        YOU: "What you say will not be Islam. it is American Islam and also called "light Islam"
        Islam is Islam when it is complete"

        ME: Not "light" Islam - "Enlightened" Islam in my opinion.
        Humankind is always advancing, always evolving always learning - Respectfully, I think you really need to consider how to re-interpret your religious beliefs so that they reflect that.
        • Jun 8 2011: Dear Jim,
          "First of all, you've substituted the word "politics" for "state""
          sorry, its my misunderstanding.
          also governance is part of Islam. prophet itself was President. please read history of Islam can you find any governor (president of state/country) unless prophet in history of prophet?
          Islam has many many detailed instructions for how to govern a country. tons sayings.
          please spend some time and read the "'Ali's Instructions to Malik al-Ashtar "
          for a sample this is governance in Islam. I strongly recommend to read 'Ali's Instructions to Malik al-Ashtar. if not read it you lose a high valuable knowledge about governance.
          'Ali's Instructions to Malik al-Ashtar. they are some instructions
          http://www.al-islam.org/anthology/2.htm
          this is governance in Shia.

          Islam covers all aspects of life. even how to go toilet. how to eat. how to walk. you can not say any aspect oh human life that Islam has no Instruction for it.

          "just be sure that our laws and constitution don't allow any religion to determine what is and is not just for all humans - not just Muslims, christians, jews, etc. "
          sorry please explain. by "our rules" you mean US laws?

          "Humankind is always advancing, always evolving always learning - Respectfully, I think you really need to consider how to re-interpret your religious beliefs "
          completely right.
          but please note God has absolute knowledge and is not advancing. but humankind is advancing and God sends new updated religion according to advance of human during history.
          we always use most updated religion.
          God did not send any religion newer than Islam. so this means Islam is the most complete religion and does not need to be more developed.
          also Islam has two part: some fixed principals (like formulas) and two some flexible parts that are every day updated according to develops and new needs. (fatwa).
          if you can prove Islam has does not cover any need in of human today and needs re-interpret I accept you. show only one case that needing re-interpret
        • Jun 8 2011: "consider how to re-interpret your religious beliefs so that they reflect that."
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:3
          "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. "
          please show only one case that Islam needs re-interpret.
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          Jun 9 2011: "Not "light" Islam - "Enlightened" Islam in my opinion.
          Humankind is always advancing, always evolving always learning - Respectfully, I think you really need to consider how to re-interpret your religious beliefs so that they reflect that."

          Regardless of your beliefs, you should refrain from making such comments. Followers of Judaism are far from being "advancing, always evolving always learning". Must you be reminded who's occupying who's land solely based on what their bible says?
    • Jun 6 2011: Dear joe anonmus,
      First I clear Jew is different of Zionist.
      "Israeli children are the direct target of Palestinian terrorists acts for many years now"
      Palestine is under siege . They can not have medicine, pencil,… how they can have gun and missile? They have no way but making some thing by aviable tools themselves. So their home made missles are not presise and unintentionally kill some childs.
      What is your define of terrotrist? Israel is terrorist:
      http://addameer.info/?cat=18
      www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGyS3hc4M8U
      I consider attacks of Palestinians kind of defend.

      "Israel as a state does not support or represents these opinions "
      Yes. Not officially. But seen in their behaviors also seen in deviated Torah and old testimonials.

      "this was recoded in the Bible , Historically there was a Jewish kingdom for many hundreds of years in the land f Israel"
      Please show your evidence. As I know Jew was not in Palestine land to near 3000 years ago. Only for short time David and Solomon (peace on them) lived there for some decades. God said Jew go to Jurshalim. But did not say that land is yours for ever.

      "there is NO mention in the Jewish scriptures of yor fabrication"
      "Jeremiah 12- 3: pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, and prepare them for the day of slaughter"

      "Jeremiah -51- 20.21.22 Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms;

      And with thee will I break in pieces the horse and his rider; and with thee will I break in pieces the chariot and his rider

      With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman; and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid"

      "Jeremiah – 49 – 28 Arise ye, go up to Kedar, and spoil the men of the east"
      And so on.

      If they are false please explain me.

      Also they are observable in their manners.
    • Jun 6 2011: Dear joe anonmus,
      "(Iguess all you humanist champions f the Palestinian cause cn jump up now and
      prove that this is racism, smehw , miraculously, as you often do, against the Arabs?t"
      Please explain this.
      Also:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_3379

      "One of the pinciples of Judaism is " light onto the nations" "I respect original Jews. As I said before Zionism is different of Judaism.

      "if the Jews had a state of their own most would have been saved"I disagree. the problem is not land. Problem is ideology of Zionism. about Noble prize I agree Jews are most clever people. but I hope it they use their ingenuity to benefit people of world.


      Dear Richard,
      " Belief in Creationism / disbelief in Evolution is far higher in Muslim countries than western nations."
      Evidence? Muslim believe in creation but accept revolution with some corrections needed. Not disbelieve in evolution. Evolution has no conflict with Islam and Muslims accept it and even some say evolution is mentioned in Koran but Muslims believe current generation of human leads to Adam and Eve (near 7000 years ago) and before them some other humans lived and extincted.
      http://www.ted.com/conversations/2680/extinction_of_human_being_in_p.html

      also you said Muhammad (peace on him) traded slave. please do not say what you do not know about prophets. Muhammad (peace on him) bought many slave but never sold them and made them free. he educated them and gave them food better than his food and use them as help in his works same as himself worked. and many of them did not leave prophet after being free for loving prophet. can you show me one case prophet sold a slave? those slaves educated by prophet became leaders in other countries and scientists and hero ,...
    • Jun 8 2011: Dear Richard,
      "That is not true. The land was bought off Palestinians by the Jews."
      How much land they bought? How? Fair or by threat or terror and killing?
      This is a sample threat:
      http://www.deiryassin.org/
      When people see such they fear and sell or leave their home.

      Please distinguish between Jew and Zionist.

      "The Jews asked the Arabs to stay in Israel "
      What you mean?

      "but the Arab armies invaded the day after their declaration of independence and they lost.?
      Why Arabs invaded?

      "1. Settled and developed the land "
      This is not accepted. If I settle and develop your land then it is mine? First you should own a land then settle and develop it.

      "3 The territory was captured in defensive wars"
      defensive war is for defending your own land. How a defending war leads to capturing war? You call it defending?

      "That Muslim people do not accept Israel's right to exist is a religious based"
      Muslims say killing people and making 70% of people of a country homeless and immigrant is not accepted. I think this is also humanitarian. The Israel itself is not problem. The ideology of Zionism is problem:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_3379

      "they want to be the bosses and rulers of the world."
      I think most nations think so specially US.

      "The Jewish people were in Mecca and Medina. There were many Jewish tribes in Medina "
      yes. I do not know about Saudi Arabia but Iran has the 3rth largest population of Jews in world:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
      Jews has rights like other humans. But do not have right to occupy or kill childs and make people homeless by force and Muslims have the right to defend.

      "people died in Sudan. I dont hear you or Muslims or Muslim countries wanting to condemn that. Why is that?"
      Are you sure? If you do not hear means not exist? Do you check Muslim medias?
      Please check:
      www.presstv.com
      Do you know what is happening in Bahrain?

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