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Laura Bickle

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Israel/Palestine conflict, call to pre-1967 boarders

The right seems to be parroting the phrase "Obama threw Israel under the bus" with out a solid explanation of why Israel has the right to the territory they seized in the six days war. What is your position on the "Right of Return?" Or the right of the displaced Palestinians to return to their settlements.

What is the position of those who think Obama "threw Israel under the bus?"

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      May 30 2011: S.R.Ahmadi,

      What is your opinion on this? Do you think that this issue could ever be solved?
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          May 30 2011: Ahmadi,

          I looked at the links that you posted and they don't answer my questions. Anyone can justify their actions based on religion. It's very easy to do. But from what I've gathered, I am assuming you are not a fan of Israel, is that right? Why not? Try to think about this situation without talking about Islam, please. I already have my opinions on this, but I want to know your perspective on this issue and not what your scriptures say.

          The Jews believe that's their promised land and there's nothing that we can do to make them think otherwise. They will do whatever they have to do, to keep it, it was given to them by God. Do you see why religion can't be used to justify people's actions?
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          May 30 2011: @ Jafia "The Jews believe that's their promised land ..."

          But since I know the Quran maybe even better than dear SR here, according to the Quran also Allah gave the land of what is Palestine to the Jews
          Quran 17:104 http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:104
          Another translation of which reads "And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land of promise""
          And the Quran says that the Promised Land is the permanent inheritance of the Jews given by Allah Quran 26:59 "Thus it was, but we made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things (the Promised Land)"
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        • May 31 2011: Dear Richard,
          "Allah gave the land of what is Palestine to the Jews"
          This is for when? For always or for a special time?

          "Dwell securely in the land of promise"
          OK, so what? For example your father tells you: dwell to Canada. Then Canada is yours until thousands of years?

          Dear Richard,
          "Promised Land is the permanent inheritance "
          Can you show me the "permanent" in the text of Koran?
          http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/26:59


          The only time Jews were settled in Palestine land was at time of prophet David (peace on him) thousands years ago (the David star on their flag is for that) and then they left that land to Egypt. An until our time they were not settled in that land and that land always was for ancestors of current Muslims of Palestine that were not Jew.
          If prophet David (peace on him) settled there for a while in long past history then that land is for them? What a logic? May be I can find a fossil of my ancestors in your land. Then your land is mine? Scientists say human and ape have common ancestors . So it is enough I find a fossil of an ape or some thing like that in your land.
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          May 30 2011: I don't hear your voice at all in this conversation. You are offering little else but an advertisement for the religious beliefs you hold.This is a forum where we share our own personal insights, thoughts and ideas about issues.

          The question I am again asking you to answer WITHOUT referencing or linking is this: What do YOU think of the current situation between Israel and the Palestinian people? How would YOU interpret Obama's call for negotiations to re-start based on the pre-1967 boarders?
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          May 31 2011: Hey Richard,
          I am not sure where you believe that I told you that your understanding of Islam was wrong. That was never an issue that I was discussing with you. You have clearly demonstrated a very deep understanding of the Islamic holy writings. My point was then and remains dealing with the issue of Palestine in light of today- that includes but is not limited to the understanding of the religious motivations of all parties hence my point of having to declare these biases up front. Don't you think that if you believe your beliefs say that should wipe someone off the map it should be understood where you stand before you have a any say at the Peace talks table?? This issue at hand is the peace talks. Most of us are arguing against your apparent assertion that the problems are all on one side. It is not a valid conclusion so we are arguing at cross purposes. Just because one relgion has clear edicts that appear to shape their behaviour does not make the other lily white.
          My points remain: 1) that the situation in Palestine is unlivable and inhumane. 2)That the interference of other nations created this mess in the first place. 3) Any solution must consider the people of both nations and must not result in an untenable position for either (insomuch as that is even possible with how estranged and violent both sides are willing to be).

          I do not believe that either side in this conflict can find a solution. I do know that there is no moral highground in supporting the manner in which the Palestinians are living. No politician on either side has the political capital or the guts to do what is best or fair because any movement toward compromise would get them turfed out of office of killed (Rabin) as soon as they got home. They will not fix it.

          Thus I think the only possible answer is for the world to declare Jerusalem some sort of Human World Heritage Site that belongs to the whole planet and impose a viable solution. I don't hold out much hope for that either.
      • May 30 2011: Dear Jáfia Câmara,
        "I am assuming you are not a fan of Israel, is that right?"
        Right,


        "Why not?"
        "I looked at the links that you posted and they don't answer my questions."
        http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
        honestly this is religious? This is scriptures ? this is not enough for not being fan?

        "The Jews believe that's their promised land"
        this is only a lie claim.
        If I believe your home is my land then its mine?! if yes so please tomorrow transfer your home to me!

        "They will do whatever they have to do, to keep it, "
        And we should only sit and watch like cinema? And Palestinian Childs be killed?
        "it was given to them by God"
        Evidence?

        "Do you see why religion can't be used to justify people's actions?"
        sorry, what is meaning?

        Dear Richard,
        Taqqiya is only allowed in special war situation. for example your enemy capture you and push you say the position of your friends to they send a missile and kill them all. they what you say to enemy? the exact position?

        lie is big sin. and religion allowed lie only in 3 special situation.
        1- when 2 friend or family are wrathful and have cut relation and you want to connect them you can say lie about other part to other.
        2- in war situation when captured and fearing your friends be killed.(Taqqiya )
        3- when speaking to your wife only in order to increase your love relation to her.

        those 3 are they only exceptions of lie and any form of lie is great sin.
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          May 30 2011: Maybe other Muslims do not know this because they feel they can lie and deceive infidels all the time. Maybe they think they are at war with us.

          As for those links the death of anyone is regrettable. Its not a numbers game. But briefly I had a look at how the figures were calculated. The Palestinian children killed are mostly around 17.

          For example the first one "Muhammad Ashraf Abed-Rabo Ghaban, 17, of Beit Lahiya, Gaza, killed by an IDF shell while trying to bomb the Gaza perimeter fence."

          Talk later
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          May 31 2011: Mr. Ahmadi.

          The world community judged and agreed that Israel should have the 1948 borders as it's homeland. It's a matter of law in which religious and cultural arguements have no sway..have no meaning outside the culture and religion who hold these beliefs.

          Religious freedom is considered by many including me to be auniversal right but it does not include protection or tolerance for incting or pursuing violence of any kind..it does not include using places of worship to indoctrinate te faithful to violence and hatred.. The world is right to have zero tolerance that

          The mesage of violence in radical islam has no place in our world and our world is united in opposing and eradicating it. The faithful of Islam need to be more active and vocal in curbing that rehtroic, curbing the use of Mosques to promote violence and hatered.

          All of us here at Ted have listened politely and attentitively to what you have to say..Not ince have you made it clear that you personally abhorr the preaching of hatred and violence by fundamental islam; that you honor and respect the rights of all non-muslims, that you want all peoples of the wolrd to have relgious freedom .

          Those are the values I hold as a global citizen..those are the values I hinor and respect in others. Those are the values that will bring peace between Isreal and Palestine.
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          May 31 2011: "They will do whatever they have to do, to keep it, "
          And we should only sit and watch like cinema? And Palestinian Childs be killed?
          "it was given to them by God"
          Evidence?''

          Ahmadi,

          I don't believe in any religion, I don't believe in god, I don't believe in revelations. I don't believe that God has promised your people or the Jewish people anything. What I was saying was that they believe that land was promised to them by God, and that is enough to justify their actions just like Muslims and Christians seem to justify their actions in the name of God. Anything is acceptable if ''God said so'', it is even okay to kill in the name of god. Do you get my point?

          I do not think it is right to kill Palestine children. I feel bad for the Palestine people, and I want Israel to go back to its pre-1967 borders. I don't think that the creation of the state of Israel was very good idea. It's very sad what so many jews had to go through during WWII, but I am not sure it was necessary to create the state of Israel because it has led to so many problems. Thousands of Romani people were killed at sight by the Nazis, and TO THIS DAY, they are still persecuted and treated like trash everywhere they are. But no one cares.

          Ahmadi, I kind of can understand your dislike for the implementation of the state of Israel, but I don't think that Israeli children should die either, they have as much right to live as the Palestinian children do.This issue needs to be solved peacefully. That's what any peaceful good god would want. Isn't that right?
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          May 31 2011: Yes! Good! We need YOUR words and thoughts, not links. Thank you for beginning to open up more about what you think and sharing it here

          Your comments about the Holocaust are disturbing to say the least. I do not consider what happened to the Jews during WW2 in Nazi Germany to be a matter of opinion.Again, I am not well-versed in the history of this region, but it is accepted by the entire world that the Holocaust happened. The reason why Israel was given a place to call home was primarily because of their near extinction at the hands of Nazi's, am I not correct???

          You've expressed a very low opinion of the American democratic process. I believe most of your views about our country are naive at best and at worst grossly skewed to fit your agenda. Obama is doing what he can to create some traction for getting the Palestinians and Israelis to live peacefully side by side, each with their own soverign land. Israel is actively pursuing a resolution to the conflict. Time for the Palestinians to contribute to solving the conflict.

          Your thoughts?
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          May 31 2011: Ahmadi,

          Thank you for sharing your views.

          ''about Holocaust I do not believe it.''

          Why you do not believe in the Holocaust? I have never heard anyone say that before. I was shocked by your comment because I don't see why you would believe it is a lie. Is that what you were taught in school?

          Ahamadi, If Israel went back to the pre-1967 borders, would that be enough?
      • May 31 2011: Dear Jáfia,
        "Thank you for sharing your views. "
        Thank God , not me. Because God loves you and is sending you the truth. And you give the reward from God for my sharing truth.
        I should thank you.

        "Why you do not believe in the Holocaust? "
        Because it is a big lie.


        "I have never heard anyone say that before."
        now you heard. at least near All Iranians believe it is lie. I am not sure about other countries. But many people in many countries believe it is lie. And I know many university professors are under pressure and even they are fired and their salary is cut for research on Holocaust in Europe Canada,...


        "Is that what you were taught in school? "
        we never have such things in our schools. Who has enough money to buy large medias has enough money to change school books.

        "Ahamadi, If Israel went back to the pre-1967 borders, would that be enough?"
        the Palestine occupier regime should completely leave the land of Palestine.
        They have absolutely no right there. Even one square centimeter of land.
        Even few land bought by them is bought by pressure and threat.


        Dear Jim Moonan,
        I was lost in jungle of comments. So I reply here.

        "it is accepted by the entire world that the Holocaust happened."
        I have a question. Consider one thing false in fact but all people of world think it is true. Then it really becomes true?
        All are not always thinking true. Think of people is controlled by media.

        "The reason why Israel was given a place to call home was primarily because of their near extinction at the hands of Nazi's, am I not correct??? "
        given by who. Who given the land himself was stolen the land.

        Palestinians should be extinct because some people not have land?
        also not having land is not equal to extincinction.
        They had home but scattered in many countries. Their greed of land made them such cruel deeds.
        Who has no land should kill others?
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          May 31 2011: Ahmadi,

          ''Dear Jáfia,
          "Thank you for sharing your views. "
          >Thank God , not me. Because God loves you and is sending you the truth. And you give the reward from God for my sharing truth.
          I should thank you.''

          Ok fine. You're very welcome :)

          "Why you do not believe in the Holocaust? "
          >Because it is a big lie.''

          That answer is not good enough. Elaborate, please.

          "I have never heard anyone say that before."
          >now you heard. at least near All Iranians believe it is lie. I am not sure about other countries. But many people in many countries believe it is lie. And I know many university professors are under pressure and even they are fired and their salary is cut for research on Holocaust in Europe Canada,...''

          Can you provide some proof for what you're saying? But please try not to post so many ''.org'' websites, I don't trust some of them.

          "Ahamadi, If Israel went back to the pre-1967 borders, would that be enough?"

          >the Palestine occupier regime should completely leave the land of Palestine. They have absolutely no right there. Even one square centimeter of land.Even few land bought by them is bought by pressure and threat.''

          Ahmadi, that's not gonna happen. The Israelis will never leave, and at this point they shouldn't because it is now their home. It makes no sense to kick people out of the land where they were born in because the land ''doesn't belong to them'', because now it does belong to them. Do you think that it was right that Palestinians were kicked out of their homes so that the Jews could build their country? And how doing the same to the Jews would make the world a better place? Two wrongs don't make a right. Although I don't agree with its creation, I think that it is now their country. I would like for them to go back to the pre 1967 borders and that they work on treating the Palestinians more equally. But the Muslim people in those regions also should treat Israelis equally and respectfully.
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          May 31 2011: Ahmadi,

          "it is accepted by the entire world that the Holocaust happened."
          >I have a question. Consider one thing false in fact but all people of world think it is true. Then it really becomes true?''

          That's how it works with religion, isn't it? People are controlled by their religion and they can't see clearly. But unlike religion, the holocaust can be proven that it's true.

          What are you thinking? That the media made Hitler and his men kill about 6 million Jews, about 15-17 million people died total, just so Israel would have an excuse to have their state created?

          I asked you if you were taught in school that the holocaust was a lie and you said:
          "we never have such things in our schools. Who has enough money to buy large medias has enough money to change school books.''

          What exactly do you mean by that? I am sorry but I don't understand it. I have been trying to decide if education in countries such as yours, is worthless. If all your people is fed in school is propaganda, then it might be worthless. You said that everyone in your country believes that the Holocaust is a lie. How did that happen?
        • sha b

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          May 31 2011: "at least near All Iranians believe it is lie"

          If you ever ran out of evidence,data,facts,logic, proof : Don't worry count "near all Iranians" on your side of argument and you'll win the argument ...or at least you won't seem so lonely on *that* side of argument anymore. (might be from Ahmadinejhad's handbook)
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          May 31 2011: @Sha B..Iarnians etc.

          I for one know othing ( or next to nothing) about Iran and how it play sito ll this.. about Iran..only if it is CLEARLY AND SOECIFICALLY N TOPIC, could you explian what bearing the views in Iran have on the isue immedately and soecifically before us....encouraging Plaestine and Isreael to settle this now..once and for all..permamnently starting at the 1967 borders.
        • sha b

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          Jun 1 2011: @Lindsay
          Things are that not cut clear, Iran's government is gaining credibility from "defending Muslims in Palestine". So I don't see them agreeing on settling things between Palestine and Israel under any conditions. Believe it or not their ultimate goal is making a Muslim nation under the leadership of Khamenei and co. and making the world ready for the time Imam Zaman, Muslim's Savior,comes.

          Many Iranians like myself sympathize with Palestinians (because they are the weaker one), And about sending supplying Hezbollah I for one don't see why is that when our own people are struggling with poverty our tax money and Oil money should be spend on arming Palestinians and buying credibility for Ahmadinejhad? And even if they do help them, Why they only help Hezbollah? , Why not help secular ones too?
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          Jun 1 2011: shab @iran

          Yes I agree we all need to understand Iran in the same way we have struggled to understand whether Obama threw israel under th ebus and what he meant by the sgarting at the 1967 borders.

          I for one would be very very very grateful if you could frame a question here at Ted that would give us all a chnace to learn more about Itan. Of course I ma most interestedin how the US has attempted in the past to interfere.
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          Jun 1 2011: Sha b, I would really like to second Lindsay's point above. I would very much like to learn from you what life in Iran is like, what your hopes and dreams are and why you feel and believe as you do.
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          Jun 1 2011: Thanks, That is fantastic. Will join you there!
      • May 31 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
        "You've expressed a very low opinion of the American democratic process."
        yes democracy is the most corrupted form of government.
        Please read the opinions of aristotle about kinds of government.
        The worst kind of government became the best kind buy deviation in politics.

        "I believe most of your views about our country are naive at best and at worst grossly skewed to fit your agenda"
        you are free to believe any thing but I hope you have enough evidences for them.

        "Obama is doing what he can to create some traction for getting the Palestinians and Israelis to live peacefully side by side, each with their own soverign land."
        yes I see:
        http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
        Please look these numbers. It is not long to read.

        "Israel is actively pursuing a resolution to the conflict."
        by abducting Palestinians actively?
        http://www.presstv.ir/detail/182566.html

        "Time for the Palestinians to contribute to solving the conflict. "
        How? They even have no pencil for their children or drinking water or home for sleep. Thy only have their life and blood to perhaps some human hear their voice. Even reporters are banned to go there.
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          Jun 1 2011: Did you have to bring Aristotle into this?
      • Jun 2 2011: Dear Jáfia,
        "That answer is not good enough. Elaborate, please. "
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Holocaust_deniers
        Some of them are no.1 in world in their files (history,...)
        This is off-tioic. More talk, new topic.

        "try not to post so many ''.org'' "
        What about .com?
        http://www.ifamericansknew.com/
        Please do not judge by domain.
        *** know truth, will know its inhabitant ***
        Trust is by truth not by name of speaker or by domain.
        People think famous people are true.

        "Ahmadi, that's not gonna happen."
        Not be sure.

        "It makes no sense to kick people out of the land where they were born in because the land"
        when wanted to have my new baby do you let me to my baby be born in your home? Then he/she will have a free home! Thank for your offer.

        "Do you think that it was right that Palestinians were kicked out of their homes so that the Jews could build their country? "
        No

        "And how doing the same to the Jews would make the world a better place?"
        they back to their previous home before coming to this land. Or Germany pay the price of holocaust and give them land.

        "I think that it is now their country. "
        Why?( If this is off-topic here please open new topic)

        "and that they work on treating the Palestinians more equally"
        This will never happen. This like you say a cow to fly.


        "That's how it works with religion, isn't it? "
        Yes about almost today religions. Expect true Islam.

        Hitler is not equal to holocaust.

        "That the media made Hitler and his men kill about 6 million Jews, about 15-17 million people died total, just so Israel would have an excuse to have their state created? "
        yes

        "What exactly do you mean by that?"
        I mean who controls your media made holocaust in your brain.
        Hollywood, cnn,.. are for who?

        "How did that happen?"
        By showing the censored researches of researchers and many movies about what really is holocaust. In Iran critiquing holocaust is free. What about your country?
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          Jun 2 2011: Ahmadi,

          Thanks for providing that list of Holocaust deniers. I have taken a look at the list and so far they are neo-nazis and neo-facists. I also noticed that Mr. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad denies the holocaust. Is that why ''everyone in Iran denies the Holocaust?'' Were you all brainwashed by your government? People will believe in anything. If they can believe that Mohammed was a real messenger of god or that god's son died on the cross for them, then people can believe that the Holocaust didn't happen.


          ''when wanted to have my new baby do you let me to my baby be born in your home? Then he/she will have a free home! Thank for your offer.''

          This is a different situation, Ahmadi. Real life is complicated enough without hypotheticals. But working with it, I do think if you take a child into your home, he is born and raised there, that there is an obligation you then have. You shouldn't then, after 9 years of caring for the child, kick him out at will.

          Further, imagine if a family lived in a house for 60 years, then some strangers that never lived in it want to kick them out cause their grandfather used to live there. Everyone would laugh.

          But the real situation is even worse, because it is a territory,a large space. Kicked out of a house you still have your local community.


          ''I mean who controls your media made holocaust in your brain.
          Hollywood, cnn,.. are for who?''

          I am not American, Ahmadi. I was born and raised in Brazil. I didn't grow up watching CNN or any of the American media.
      • Jun 2 2011: Dear sha b,
        I have no exact stat of near all. this is my perception. if you have any evidence,data,facts,logic, proof you can show.

        evidence,data,facts,logic, proof
        "might be from Ahmadinejhad's handbook"
        Not only in Ahmadinejhad's handbook but also:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Holocaust_deniers
        (this not mean I validate all sayings of Ahmadinejad.)
        holocaust is off topic here. Please do not continue here. More talks need new topic.

        "And about sending supplying Hezbollah"
        People voluntary help Palestine. This is not all from Oil. I am not sure what portion is from Oil. But I am sure a high portion is from people voluntary.
        Also Hezbollah is a guard for Iran against Israel. If no Hezbollah Iran was destroyed by Israel. Israel fears from Hezbollah. Hezbollah is by Iran and is next to Israel. Support of Iran is both humanitarian and for guard of Hezbollah. Hezbollah is arm of Iran.


        Dear sha b,
        Bush said in his memorabilia we to times wanted to start military attack on Iran after Iraq and it was very near to we decide it.
        do you know what is the secret that Iran is not occupied like Palestine/Iraq/Afghanistan/Bahrain?
        one main reason is Hezbollah
        would you like Iran was now occupied like Iraq or Palestine? every day killing.every day killing like:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Ali_Mosque_bombing

        *** two gifts are unknown, health and security ***
        prophet Muhammad (peace on him)


        "Why not help secular ones too?"
        Who you mean?
      • Jun 2 2011: Dear Jáfia, Please do not prejudice about some one. It is not fair. Are you sure what iI say is only brainwash and is not by research?
        They all are neo-nazis and neo-facists. Do you know this:?
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Garaudy
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Faurisson he is neo-nazis and neo-facists?
        How many of them are neo-nazis and neo-facists?
        You can say any thing about me and brainwashing but this not cause holocaust become true. This is off topic. I not want removing comments. If more talk please open new topic.

        Who said god's son died ? God has no son. about prophet I am sure you do not know any thing or brainwashed.

        "after 9 years of caring for the child, kick him out at will." Not kick. Migrating to their own home respectfully like they migrated to Palestine land by their childs grown in other land.

        "I didn't grow up watching CNN or any of the American media." you mean you not see CNN or Hollywood movies (500 movie per year)?
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      May 30 2011: Mr. Amahdi..this will be out of sequence I am afarid..I am replying to your post which added several new links on th eplight and gistory of the Plaestinians. I thnak yiu for these. I ahven't read them all but they certainly seem restrained and credible and responsble and we in the west know so plittle baout the Plaestinian peole and their own horrific struggles over many ages.

      Beacuse of the way google sercahes are highly personalized and customized to re enforce our past pattersn of seraching we might not have found thee sources on our won. Thank you for bringing them to us.
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