- Laura Bickle
- Bozeman, MT
- United States
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Israel/Palestine conflict, call to pre-1967 boarders
The right seems to be parroting the phrase "Obama threw Israel under the bus" with out a solid explanation of why Israel has the right to the territory they seized in the six days war. What is your position on the "Right of Return?" Or the right of the displaced Palestinians to return to their settlements.
What is the position of those who think Obama "threw Israel under the bus?"
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
June 15, 2011
The Pulitzer Prize-winning author on her impending trip to Gaza, “SlutWalk,” and The Chicken Chronicles.
http://www.guernicamag.com/blog/2794/michael_archer_qa_with_alice_w/
Brendan O'Neill
Brendan O'Neill is the editor of spiked, an independent online phenomenon dedicated to raising the horizons of humanity by waging a culture war of words against misanthropy, priggishness, prejudice, luddism, illiberalism and irrationalism in all their ancient and modern forms.
How Palestinians became the baby seals of the Western human rights lobby
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100092728/how-palestinians-became-the-baby-seals-of-the-western-human-rights-lobby/
http://www.rohama.org/files/fa/news/1390/3/28/24790_316.jpg
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
http://ustogaza.org/passengers-on-the-audacity-of-hope/
http://ustogaza.org
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Regarding statements of government officials in Israel (echoed by officials in other countries) about diplomatic initiatives to impede the “Freedom Flotilla II- Stay Human” mission to Gaza, Palestine, we say:
Proper diplomacy does not exclude humanitarian action; Instead of seeking to prevent an international community of concerned citizens from taking nonviolent action in defense of liberty and human rights, diplomacy must pursue such actions and encourage them.
It is, therefore, a provocation to label the humanitarian action taken by movements supporting human rights to sail to Gaza a “provocation.”
It is a provocation that powerful states and international organizations, such as the US, Israel, the EU and the UN, are asking people to be silent and not react to violations of law and the disdain for universal values.
It is a provocation that international diplomacy is demanding that solidarity action from "people to people" be stopped.
It is a provocation that this international peaceful action is threatened with violence, and the powerful of the earth “wash their hands” of the consequences if Israel attacks us.
It is a provocation that these powerful entities justify, a priori, the murders, wounding, arrests and torture of unarmed human rights activists that took place one year ago on board all six ships of Freedom Flotilla 1.
We are determined to sail to Gaza, and we will. Our cause is just and our means are transparent. International diplomacy must do what it has refused to do for years, to undertake initiatives that it has turned away from for decades. Instead of condoning threats of repeated violence against unarmed civilians sailing in international waters, the global community must legally sanction the perpetrators of such crimes.
...
http://www.freegaza.org/home/56-news/1298-dear-israel-it-is-you-who-is-the-provocateur-not-us?lang=en
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
http://www.freegaza.org/en/home/56-news/1302-statement-from-the-freedom-flotilla-ii-stay-human-streering-committee-to-the-un-human-rights-council-
Comment deleted
Debra Smith 200+
Tim Colgan 50+
Comment deleted
Tony Sanchez
"Otherwise" meaning NOT defeating Islam? So you imply women's freedom depends, entirely of partially, from the "defeat" of Islam?
Tim Colgan 50+
Debra Smith 200+
Matthieu Miossec 100+
So I kind of agree to some more limited extent.
Tim Colgan 50+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
only to know:
Burqa (covering face) is not necessary in Islam law. but some women like to wear it. it is cultural in some regains rather than Islamic law.
Tony Sanchez
Matthieu: So was I. If covering your face in public, outside of carnivals and such, is illegal, the burqa simply HAD to be banned. I also remember the controversy of the chador in public schools. I ignore if the law is truly enforced, but I must say there is a big difference between the chador and the burqa.
Tony Sanchez
If this kind of statement(Richard Dawson's) would have been made against Judaism, in Europe at least, it would have been called "anti-Semitic" and punishable by law. I hope my comment won't be considered offensive by anyone.
Richard Dawson 30+
If I may step into a controversy about a statement allegedly made by me.
@ Tony Sanchez "If this kind of statement(Richard Dawson's) would have been made against Judaism, in Europe at least, it would have been called "anti-Semitic" and punishable by law. I hope my comment won't be considered offensive by anyone."
1. As a matter of fact this statement was not made by me
2. Even if it had been made or made about Judaism, it would not have been called "anti-Semitic". "Antisemitism is "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."
3. It would have expressed no hatred towards Jews any more than your statement "it is obvious that the state of Israel alongside those with close tights with the Hebrew state and the zionist doctrine have used the "holocaust card" one too many times to justify the unjustifiable" does.
4. I have never at anytime expressed any hatred towards Muslims or indeed even against an ideology or religion. I may have other feelings but I do not hate - period.
5. I have expressed my opinions against Islam. Islam is an ideology - both a political system and a religion. It decrees governance, Earthly laws as well as religious beliefs. One could criticise Nazism but one would be wrong to hate Germans.
6. I have expressed my opinions at other places against its Supremacism - Its avowed intention to establish a World Islamic state under Islamic laws, Restriction of Criticism - against itself or its founder, Discrimination - against people of other beliefs, women, Homosexuals, Its verses calling for violence and hatred against members of other groups, Jews, Christians, Idolaters etc
If you disagree with 5 or 6, I could show you where you were wrong in some other forum.
Debra Smith 200+
Tim Colgan 50+
If I misquoted your intention, I was sure you would correct me (as here you have).
But a thread to focus on the topic - are we at war with Islam? - I think is essential to this conversation.
Richard Dawson 30+
Debra Smith 200+
They might not be ready for you Richard, they already had Cheney.
Comment deleted
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Ross Kleiman
I feel that this conflict can learn a lot from the ideologies of Martin Luther King Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi. From all that I have seen I believe that until there is a willingness to forgive one another, there is no hope at a compromise. I do not think this will be easy as the conflict goes thousands of years further back than 1947, but I cannot imagine a solution that does not involve forgiveness; I don't see an artificial line drawn in the sand providing the solution that is necessary here.
Debra Smith 200+
Bring it to the level of nations and warring factions will expand and enrich our understanding there too.
Matthieu Miossec 100+
Tim Colgan 50+
The only way for progress is for both sides to see peace as their self-interest.
If the Israeli's see peace as sacrificing land that they could otherwise possess...
or the Palestinians see peace as leading to further settlement ...
then there won't be peace.
Tony Sanchez
What would be the Thesis? I guess this would be a great start.
Tim Colgan 50+
Tony Sanchez
My question was focused on current events. Should WW2 be considered the thesis, or the invasion of Palestine? This is an interesting start, as far as I'm concern, because on either ones the Palestinian are victims. They were not involved in WW2. So why would they pay someone else's bill? I don't believe that without WW2 and the holocaust such an occupation could have been justified, not that it is or ever was, but the world must have had more consideration for Jews than for the Arabs. Or perhaps the Jews had better lobbyists?
Tim Colgan 50+
You know in italian the word for history is storia. Which of course is root of the english word for both story and history. Fact and fiction merge at some point.
Are you a fan of Borges?
Tony Sanchez
Si, e vero che cuesto e un labirinto. Therefore I will correct my Hegelian Dialectic reference and replace it with the Monty Hall problem (two entrances and one exit, or one entrance and two exits). You will probably smile as the "trinity", in a sense, is still present. Can we ever get rid of it?
Borges: I'm not sure if "Fan" is the right term in my case. But I do indeed look up to those who were constantly being kept off Nobel prizes. Almost like not being granted the "privilege" is a sign of true, or purer, integrity and objectivity, at least literally speaking. I just don't share the same will to pass away at the Hôtel des Beaux Arts, even thus it seems many influential people(to me) 'chose' hotels, so impersonal yet full of personality, to take their last breaths.
Tim Colgan 50+
The true value of the dialectic comes from it's iterative application.
Amelelites + Israelis
Israelis + Babylonians
Babylonian Jews + Zoroastrians
Returned Israelis + Romans
Roman Jews + Christians
European Jews + Nazis (with Zarathustrian influences)
Returned Jews + Palestinians
Always two stories merging into one. And being early people of the book they have experience guiding the narrative.
But tell me. Does the Monty Hall problem have some additional application here? Has one door been opened?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/181442.html
joe anonmus
http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000584408
Tim Colgan 50+
in response to
"tim..what do YOU see as the Isareli goal? And do you think what they are pursuing may reaally be the U.S. goal?
With all that has come tto light here in this conversation..who is leading who in Israel?"
======
I think the Zionists wish to have a place where they can defend themselves. The holocaust was a cultural shock that will take time to heal.
There are times when Israeli interests overlap with American interests. But I think more and more, Israel is a liability. It is a shame to have to say that. I wish it were different. I would like to see Israel survive and become the "beacon of democracy" which they have often been portrayed as. But it gets harder and harder to see it that way.
Richard Dawson 30+
Or do you think of democracy in the same way as our friend SR does:
"Dear Jim Moonan,
"You've expressed a very low opinion of the American democratic process."
yes democracy is the most corrupted form of government.
Please read the opinions of aristotle about kinds of government."
Tim Colgan 50+
My point was that Israel has been the main democracy in the area for the last 60 years and was always touted as the example that was going to lead the way for the region. Yet there don't seem to have been many followers. Just makes me wonder how much of a factor the US support for friendly dictatorships (i.e. - those which won't threaten Israel) is in the equation.
Richard Dawson 30+
Tony Sanchez
Richard Dawson 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I love Khomeini and please take care what you say about him. he or mr. Khamenei can not be considered dictator. please compare their life with Mubarak or Saudi family:
http://www.imam-khomeini.com/
which dictator is poet and has very simple life and make food in home? and wash his own cloths?
please look:
http://www.navideshahed.com/fa/index.php?Page=albumdefinition&UID=107535&ImageUID=107656
and please click on each of these links:
http://www.navideshahed.com/fa/index.php?Page=albumarchive&AS=18660&SSAS=43373
he is dictator?
he was a real close friend of Allah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhollah_Khomeini
sha b
Richard Dawson 30+
SR I simply said it is not a democracy. Will you agree with that?
PS doesn't he have a washing machine?
sha b
He is right Khomeini, Khamenei and co are all close friends of God, he gave them Oil money and guns and ordered them to full the prisons and graves with my comrades.
Richard Dawson 30+
Here is the voice of one of your countrymen:
"For the past 31-years, the Islamic Republic of Iran has been denying and violating a long-suffering people of all its human rights. The regime is guilty of beating, torturing, raping, and killing prisoners of conscience—political, religious, intellectuals, artists and others.
Women, chronically oppressed and denied their basic human and family rights, have been the ones most viciously abused by the Islamic system and its hired plain clothes and Basij members. To maintain its suffocating rule, the regime metes out punishments reminiscent of the worst governments in the annals of human history. Amputation of hands and feet, blinding of eyes, hanging, and stoning victims after perfunctory trials in kangaroo courts without legal representation is common-place under the terror rule of the Islamists.
The regime has violated all norms of international human rights including issuing-very harsh penalties for even "victimless crimes" like fornication, expressing dissenting views in public places, homosexuality, apostasy, and for women who do not wear the hejab in accordance with the dictates of regime's morality police."
Shame on us for remaining silent while you protested these atrocities. For voicing support to the supporters of your regime even now.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I mean this:
"Dictatorships like Saddam Hussein, Libya, Iran, "
this means Iran leader is dictator.
about democracy I agree Iran has not democracy. but some democracy is mixed into it. because president and parliament members are selected by votes of people. but not only by vote. the candidates need to be verified before. but democracy has not verification.
"PS doesn't he have a washing machine? "
about Khomeini I am sure he had not. about Khamenei i do not know. but I think has.
also human rights of UN has some conflicts with Islamic laws.
why we should obey human rights of UN (that is controlled by US) while they have strict conflict by Koran?
(this not mean I am a fan of all behaviors of Iran government. Iran government is not prefect and has mistake behaviors. but this mistakes are not related to Koran)
Tony Sanchez
Just like the US is an illusion of democracy.
http://rt.com/usa/news/fbi-political-activists-terrorists/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism#Laws_and_arrests
sha b
Shame on who exactly? You know how you don't trust Iran's regime to have Palestinians interest in their heart when they interface in Palestine's affairs? I don't believe your authorities are concerned about our well being either. When we have seen what people who are from our own country had done do to their compatriots, Then why should we trust foreign governments with our well beings?
Mullah are something like clerics, Just like any other human beings, They can choose to be compassionate, and conscientious(I could name Montazeri, and others who could have used the opportunity who was given to them but they choose to be on the people's side and be punished for it)or deceiving and extortioner.
I'd like to talk to you more, But right now I don't have much time.
PS Please cut Mr Ahmadi some slack,
1. He can't talk as freely as let's say me,( because I am anonymous.)
2. He is making an effort to converse, its not like all things that Iran's authorities have done is his fault.
Debra Smith 200+
Man I admire you!
Debra Smith 200+
Man, comma, Sha B- I was fully aware of her gender even if my expressions are dated.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
how much you know Montazeri?
"Please cut Mr Ahmadi some slack, "
what means this? I did not understand.
"1. He can't talk as freely as let's say me,( because I am anonymous.)"
if I had any problem in talking free I could become anonymous like you or made another anonymous username.
"He is making an effort to converse"
what means? you mean I am trying to talk? if yes TED is for talk.
"its not like all things that Iran's authorities have done is his fault."
please be clear. I do not understand what you mean.
I disagree with my authority in some policies and some economic and cultural and other aspects. but fundamentally I agree with Iran revolution and I hope it can solve its problems. I am fan of Imam Khomeini and revolution. but not fan of any behavior of my government.
people in Iran are tree main category:
1-fundamentally hate Islam/God/Koran and so hate Islamic revolution and Khomeini and so on
2- fundamentally love true Islam/God/Koran but hate abusing Islam and power gained in the name of Islam by love of people to true Islam and killing people in wars and using the power for the worldly greed's of governors.
3- some ignorant people that blindly follow anything government feed them through media.
I clearly announce I am in category 2 and I am NOT necessarily fan of any government in earth. but I am fan of TRUE Islam/Koran/Allah.
maybe the similarity between Islam and Iran make sense that I am necessarily fan of Iran government. I am its fan until it follow the beautiful laws of TRUE Islam.
Dear sha b I ask you do not prejudice about me before you know me. many people talk Islam but few of them know and obey Allah.
Richard Dawson 30+
I'll cut you some slack as Sha b has asked, you cut her some slack and maybe we should all cut each other some slack.
Also SR has it occurred to you there maybe more than just the 3 categories you have listed?
For example category 1- "fundamentally hate Islam/God/Koran and so hate Islamic revolution and Khomeini and so on" is very black and white like your beliefs and your beliefs about truth and science.
There could be people who do not "hate Islam/God/Koran" and yet do not like the Islamic revolution and Khomeini and so on.
There could be people who do not "hate Islam/God/Koran", but simply do not believe in Islam and the Koran, yet believe in God
There could be people who do not "hate Islam/God/Koran", but simply do not believe in any of them.
The second part of your sentence also does not necessarily follow from the first, though I concede it is very likely.
There is not just love and hate, there are other feelings also. There is indifference, there is amusement, there is incredulity.
But people who love Islam/God/Koran, hate those who dont and thus presume that the same feelings are generated towards them from those who do not "love" Islam/God/Koran.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I agree you.
if we want to go more detail there are many more categories.
I said them about Iran. not other countries.
in situation in Iran force people to automatically fall in one of above main category. approximately there is no space for other category. political parties and government and conservatives immediately react on any political activity and that activity will be forces to clear his category. there is no way to some one have a Cinerama color. mostly colors are black or white. the categories you mentioned are minority or does not expose themselves. because lack of power. please note that 95-98% of people in Iran are Muslims that near 85-90% of them are Shia (not all believer conservatives but Muslim any way.)
the categories I said were general without minority categories. also it is my opinion. perhaps my opinion is not prefect and needs more research ans statistics.
sha b
Before this Mr Ahmadi said something that I thought is because he can't *talk freely*, And wondered why I haven't considered that, and felt bad for him and...You know the rest .
You are so spot op about the categories, For example there are "plenty of"people in Iran who do not "hate Islam/God/Koran" and yet do not like/ or better said hate the Islamic revolution and Khomeini. But admitting that wouldn't work to propaganda making machines benefit, So they just ignore it. According to them anyone who doesn't love or obey Khamenei is agent of CIA and Mosad who also wants to fight Islam and is of a minority who isn't worth mentioning. You can't talk about it, then that mean it's only you who is thinking about it.
>In reality this never worked, I may not be able to count the exact number of people like that, But I can talk with random people who are sitting beside me in a bus or waiting in line. People feel like they should curse the regime on a daily basis, Just like how other country's people talk about the weather, we curse them in our random conversations, everywhere. I hear it's even more usual in Tehran. (Maybe not around you Mr. Ahmadi, no offense but going by the looks, You could be mistaken for a pro-governor).
This is getting too off topic.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I disagree some of your views are not real in Iran or at least more than minority specially about Khomeini. it is impossible some one love Koan and hate Khomeini. can you show one deed of of Khomeini conflicting Koran? Khomeini was a copy of Koran. it is only possible when some one do not know Khomeini or Koran or both.
people mostly curse for economic problems like inflation and job not Khomeini or revolution. and if some say revolution their meaning is economy in revolution out of religion or Khomeini.
do you see who are around me from Internet? I am more than 11 years in universities of Tehran as student or teacher and I know different kind of people and the least people around me are conservatives.
if you want to continue this off topic please continue in other topic.
sha b
Everyone knows Tehran and Politechnic universities are the heart of every thing radical in Tehran.
I can't figure out how come you are acting like I said people in Iran are aliens?
I won't argue, I know you are even named after Khomeini, It's most likely you'd just feel offended, Just consider this : It's not 95%, I can't make up a number out of blue, But really sure it hardly is 50% who are a fan of Khomeini, Let alone Khamenei...we both know very well even people who are pro-Khomeini are not all pro-Khamenei. Remember the link Mr. Yeganeh posted and the comments? If you could have read people's mind when they are passing by you in the streets, It would have been something like that, Khomeini died years before, You think non-Iranians are still loosing sleep over a guy that died 30 years ago in another country? If anything they think Khomeini is cool cause he caused a revolution, The people who are still holding a grudge are Iranians who had lost something because of him, Not the average American who had just found out there is a country in middle east called Iran.
No, I most certainly don't want this, didn't want it from the start to be honest. I felt obligate to. Sorry if I came out offensive anywhere in the past conversations. It's not against "you", it's this system we are against. Let's not argue over it. Times are changing. Maybe someday we all get to know more about things that were kept from us.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
yes Khomeini ordered killing many people. but please say the whole story not only showing some pics. also I doubt all of them are related to Khomeini specially about Kordestan.
about fans of Khomeini I nearly agree you.my estimate is about 50-60%. but people are very different. fans of Khomeini has no fear and is ready to be killed. like the Iran-Iraq war that near one million Iranian was killed because want of Khomeini. they have no fear of death. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran –Iraq_War
I know what people say. most of their problem has root in economy and welfare and job and justice . not mainly religion. if people protest its not really for religion. people are satisfied with Islam and do not want communism or democracy (east and west). but need job/welfare and so on.
"Khomeini died years before, You think non-Iranians are still loosing sleep over a guy that died 30 years ago in another country?"
yes Iran is an important player in Palestine conflict and Iran revolution has root in Khomeini. I am wonder you even do not know when Khomeini died. he died 30 years ago?! "Not the average American who had just found out there is a country in middle east called Iran." OK so we help them know Iran better
"It's not against "you","
also I am not against you. I feel responsibility for blood of those one million who were killed for Iran in war. they did not fought only for Khomeini. they also fought for your land. please note that in all authorities before revolution all kings of Iran lost some lands of Iran in wars. but after revolution even one meter of Iran was not lost. please note Khorramshahr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_of_Khorramshahr which country has such soldiers?
Liberation of Khorramshahr was a miracle by that balance of military powers.
"Let's not argue over it." so please you not argue to I not reply your argue.
Richard Dawson 30+
http://www.amilimani.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=181&Itemid=2
Debra Smith 200+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
about about Roshdi you are correct. in Islamic laws who insult the prophet of Allah should be killed.
but about Khomeini and child you are false.
Khomeini did not force any child to go war.
childs themselves manipulated their birth certificate because love of war for Allah and Khomeini. child went to war voluntary even without permit of their parents. if you heard such it was the propaganda of Iraq for mental war in media against Iran.
Dear Richard Dawson,
do you believe anything from any one or any website without searching if it is true or lie? and simply distribute it?
do you even agree there exist some liar websites?
Jason Kather 10+
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Sir Winston Churchill. Did you ever meet him, by chance, before he said this quote?
Richard Dawson 30+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
in all my life this is first time I hear such thing.
can you show some evidence for it?
I know some children before age of 18 VOLUNTIARY went to iran iraq war. but this is first time I hear they are used for clear minefields. I am 100% sure this is propaganda.
even if such thing happened I am sure 100% it has been also VOLUNTIARY and not with any force. those childs fighting in war were not 5 years child. for example they were 15-17 and mostly they were helping in back or war not in front of war.
please show some evidence.
about holocaust many well known historians and has noticeable critics.
can you show some valid references for iran children used for clearing minefields?
I am sure it is propaganda against Iran.
please show your valid evidence. not from CNN or BBC or media backed with Israel or Imperialism saying lie news with no evidence.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
this is also my saying about people do not want to change their mind about true Islam.
http://www.ibna.ir/prtciiqp.2bqss8y-a2.html
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"democracy is the most corrupted form of government."
democracy= vote
vote=advertisement
advertisement=media
media=money
also in democracy for president there is no verification or terms needed. for example a shepherd with enough money for advertise can become president in democracy.
then assume some one with much money wants to control a country with democracy.
can he? or can not?
vote is not best choice when think of people can be easily changed with advertise and media. the majority if vote is always in benefit of who has more money and spend it to change the result of vote.
democracy has conflict with Islam.
in Islam The decision is only for Allah and Legislation is not but for Allah.
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/12:40
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/6:57
Ross Kleiman
I do not see any of those following logically.
Tony Sanchez
Matthieu Miossec 100+
Tim Colgan 50+
Winston Churchill
Richard Dawson 30+
Islamic law is absolutely incompatible with democracy. It is a theocratic system with Allah alone at its head. Allah's law is interpreted by a ruling body of clerics. There is no room for a secular political system
@ Tony "Having the choice between Coca-Cola or Pepsi Cola isn't democracy if I can't have a glass of water."
How dramatic and pathetic. This truly describes western democracies where people cant have a glass of water, while justifying theocracies and dictatorships where their citizens have plenty of water and food. Their Govts ensure them their food and water while heroically staving off Coca-Cola and Pepsi Cola.
Tony Sanchez
When lacking arguments, simply refrain from posting non-sense.
Richard Dawson 30+
When lacking anything meaningful to add to the conversation, simply refrain from interjecting with trite platitudes apropos nothing.
Matthieu Miossec 100+
Debra Smith 200+
You know that I have valued your input but I have to share that I also value SR's input. I did not always.
I have learned over time that he is like us, just tryiing to understand the world better and that he is unfailingly polite and represents a world view. It is a world view we need to hear. It is a world view we need to try to understand.
Laura Bickle
I can't remember where I heard this, but if we were to translate an Arabic phrase into English, it would have one specific meaning in it's English form. But the original Arabic phrase contains several meanings. Hmmmm... SR do you know what I'm talking about?
Richard Dawson 30+
Not much of what he says about science is of much value. But he knows his Quran and Islam all right. To assume that if a person is wrong about a few things he will be wrong about everything is a fallacy.
And he knows his feelings. Are you going to deny him that too? and say those are false because, say, he does not know the difference between a shark and a whale?
Matthieu Miossec 100+
Richard Dawson 30+
1. It is necessary for Muslims to reinterpret the Quran to fit in with contemporary scientific knowledge because the ordinary reading of it contradicts even the most basic knowledge. For example every passage in the Quran on the shape of the Earth describes it as flat, with the sun as a small object that moves around the Earth and sets in a muddy spring at night, only to rise in the morning at the command of Allah. Though this impressed the Arabs of that time, it doesnt sit very well with the Quran being without error the words of God. So suddenly all those translations are wrong, Arabic is a very mysterious language not subject to translation (except where it tells you you will go to hell unless you do certain things etc)
2. It is not necessary to reinterpret the Quran so far as its commandments go. Those are correct even if we mortals might think they are wrong. Allah is much greater than collective human intelligence.
3. There are no passages in the Quran or the Hadiths that support democracy. As SR correctly puts it "in Islam The decision is only for Allah and Legislation is not but for Allah"
Matthieu Miossec 100+
Richard Dawson 30+
[ Then SR gives his reasons and why the Govt decreed by Allah such as Iran is so very much better]
But here: New Zealand, my country and a democracy, is ranked as the least corrupt nation on Earth.
The first 22 least corrupt nations are all democracies. 23rd is UAE then 24-31 all democracies followed by 32 Oman.
The Islamic Republic of Iran ruled by the laws of Allah comes 119th and the most corrupt nations on Earth: the Islamic republics of Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia.
http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"I do not see any of those following logically. "
in democracy decisions are made by votes. OK?
vote can by influenced by media, advertise, film, Hollywood, CNN, propaganda, bin laden, fearing people of aliens, artificial conversiations,….
And for large scale advertise across a country in all media channels (internet, TV, newspaper, cinema,..) money is needed. Got it?
Dear Matthieu Miossec,
"You're assuming a country's population at large is stupid."
people are not stupid but when people are working all time to pay loans and costs and have no time to think they can be influenced by media/cinema/… and actually media think for people. This is kind of stupidity.
Agree? Do American people really think? For example what they know about bin laden unless from media? Voting is like this.
Do you disagree an shepherd with no qualification with enough money for buying media/Hollywood/TV/newspapers,… can become president?
"Laura Bickle"
"SR do you know what I'm talking about? "
Yes. Arabic is the most compact language for meaning. Even a letter can have much meaning or even the pronunciation of a letter changes meaning vastly.
There is hundreds of words for different camels or sward in Arabic. How many in English?
Arabic is mp100 (like mp3) and I think Arabic is impossible to translate.
Jim Moonan 30+
"people are not stupid but when people are working all time to pay loans and costs and have no time to think they can be influenced by media/cinema/… and actually media think for people. This is kind of stupidity.
Agree? Do American people really think? For example what they know about bin laden unless from media? Voting is like this.
Do you disagree an shepherd with no qualification with enough money for buying media/Hollywood/TV/newspapers… can become president?"
You sound like you've been feasting on "media" when it comes to your view of the USA and it’s people.
I am personally offended that you dismiss our people as non-thinking, brain-washed, propagandists who follow like sheep a wolf in sheep's clothing. There have been numerous opportunities during this discussion and others for you to broaden your understanding of the USA and the world in general, but that is apparently not why you’re involved in this discussion.
Someone earlier in this conversation alluded to the fact that you seem not at all interested in being engaged in idea-sharing. I personally have yet to hear you express anything but Islamic dogma and simplistic observations about everything else. Your arguments about your beliefs are circular and block out any honest discussion with people who might differ in their world view.
As for our country and its people and its leadership, there were two short video clips posted in another discussion that provide a more accurate reflection of who we are as a people and what we are thinking. I’m reposting them here, but anticipate you will only see in them what fits your fixed agenda.
From Birdia Tak Wai Chan
President Obama Addresses American 'Arrogance,' European 'Anti-Americanism'
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/04/president-oba-1.html
From Tim Colgan:
I found this section of his "town hall meeting":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoUtkUpmgPA
I doubt there are many here who commit to sharing their ideas in TED conversations and lis
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"Here is the voice of one of your countrymen: "
I do not disagree it 100% but it is overstate.
Iran has Islamic laws and in a Islamic government all people should respect to Islam laws for public. But in private people are free.
Any country has its rules.
About shark and whale I do not know how many times I should repeat this.
I saw a movie about amazing animals and some minutes was about a special animal (not in normal size and shape) that I do not remember it was shark or whale. It is for remembering, Not for understanding.
About earth I am sorry. I explained for you many times. Koran has many sayings about earth and most of them show earth is round. Only one seems to say earth is flat. That I explained it you. I think you will repeat it untill end of your life even with many explains. You find a mistake translate and insist on it as a evidence and do not accept others.
Not all translates are wrong. You seem like to only use and insist on errors in translations and neglecting correct translations. There are tons of translations and information and books about Koran and some people find some errors in translations and stick to them until they die. The is a saying:
"some people are like housefly they leave flowers and only sit on smelly things"
Richard Dawson 30+
Re: Shark and Whale - you did not know that the Shark was a fish whereas the Whale was a mammal. You now know and you acknowledged my telling you this. But since you now know I apologise for bringing this up - we were not born knowing things, we acquire knowledge as we go along. So no more mention of Shark and Whale from me.
Re: The Earth being described as flat in the Quran, it is not only 1 verse but every verse and I had quoted these to you. But please let us agree to disagree on this. We agree on many things for example you say:
1. "Islam covers all aspects of life. even how to go toilet. how to eat. how to walk. you can not say any aspect oh human life that Islam has no Instruction for it." I agree
2. "also governance is part of Islam. prophet itself was President. please read history of Islam can you find any governor (president of state/country) unless prophet in history of prophet?" I agree
Now can you confirm for the sake of the people here does Islam not command a World Islamic State under Islamic Sharia law?
Jim Moonan 30+
"which dictator is poet and has very simple life and make food in home? and wash his own cloths?"
Hitler was an artist.
Tony: "Having the choice between Coca-Cola or Pepsi Cola isn't democracy if I can't have a glass of water"
You want a glass of water? Here ya go - $2 please. Want some lemonade? Want some iced tea? How about a beer? Let's vote on it.
You are forming you views on our democracy based on our advertising???? A firm pat on the back to the american advertising moguls for not only selling us refreshments, but selling you a "bill of goods". Joke's on you.
Although I am a democratic-minded person with hopelessly optimistic tendencies, I do understand the short-comings of democracy well enough now (thanks in part to these conversations and Aristotle - Thanks Richard) to know it is far from perfect... but built into the very fabric of democracy is the mechanism for making it "more perfect". Will it always have an element of curruption? I don't know. All I know is that it offers me hope and a real opportunity to have a voice in what I believe and the freedom to express it - and a nice glass of Coca Cola when I'm thirsty (please don't drink Pepsi. It's the enemy).
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I agree you I have a small Image of American people and I thank you for informing this me. I hope I can know them more. also please accept few people in TED can not be necessarily same as majority of people in US voting. if all Americans were like people in TED world would be much better. specially your presidents. specially past presidents.
also i do not remember the name exact but one of writers of www.americanfreepress.net/ said American people does not think. and I was saying based on it. please correct me about this website if it is not valid.
"Hitler was an artist."
Thank. Which was poet?
Poems of Imam Khomeini is comparable with Hafez.
Dear Richard Dawson,
Thanks for leaving Shark/Whale.
About earth its off-topic here. Please :
http://www.ted.com/conversations/2328/is_koran_scientifically_a_mira.html?c=262231
"Now can you confirm for the sake of the people here does Islam not command a World Islamic State under Islamic Sharia law?"
Islam seeks a World Islamic State under Islamic Sharia law:
This is clear in Koran. It is insisted clearly many times in Koran in similar verses:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/9:33
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/48:28
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/61:9
it is promise of Allah and Koran and step by step will be reached.
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/30:6
Tony Sanchez
It wasn't a reference to the USA but to the "democratic" world. There is no 'our' democracy, but there is "our" illusion of it. As long as you will believe the USA are the center of this world, you will miss the point. As for the Joke(what joke?) being on me, well... Time will tell ;).
I have spent enough time(and tax money) in 'your' nation to base my judgement on slightly more than advertisement. I'm not sure this goes likewise.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
About your ranking it depends on the criteria of ranking and its validity.
But I do not disagree it.
I said many times Islam is different of Muslim. And Muslims has many evil behaviors. But it is not related to Islam and Koran.
Also please note that Iranian revolution was near 33 years ago and there was a 8 year war and also Iran has been under economic and business sanction for many years. And actually development process of Iran has not started yet. Iran has not still finished repair of war destroys and Iran is full of problems including corruption in governmental offices. But still it is not from Islam.
How many years before the development process of New Zealand started?
When was the last war of New Zealand? How many years New Zealand is under sanction? How many of the top mangers and leaders and top scientists of New Zealand are terrored every year?
Do you know how huge number of top Iranian leaders were terrored? Also recently two Iranian nuclear scientist were terroerd when the left their home to work.
Most western countries have at least 100 years of development and at all can not be compared with Iran. Lets see Iran 100 years later after 100 years of development.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
also about democracy.
please note I said democracy is the most corrupted kind of Government.
it means each type can have good examples and bad examples.
the type is different of a case.
when you want to compare government types you should compare two similar country in any aspect only different in government type. then your result will be real.
democracy has good cases and bad cases but this is not necessarily related to type of government.
also about Islamic government. although I personally believe no good case of Islamic government has happened in history. (only perhaps in life of prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in city of Medina in Arabia for a short time)
Tim Colgan 50+
So what is your general opinion on how the world should be dealing with Israel? Should their treatment of the Palestinians be accepted? Should the US be sending them $3B a year in military aid? Should the UN quit objecting to the expansion of settlements?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
why?
I think it has been a reward to Mubarak for blocking the Rafah gate and making Palestine as a large prison.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_Egypt_%E2%80%93_Gaza_Strip_barrier
Tim Colgan 50+
"find a workable solution to the conflict."
"The solution is a referendum in Palestine and asking what all people want."
In what region (what borders) would you hold such a referendum?
Would you be open to a similar referendum over the region of greater Kurdistan?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"In what region (what borders) would you hold such a referendum?"
Palestine has some main problems:
1. not having a unit and independent government.
2. Near 7,000,000 Palestinians (of total 10,000,000 ) ie 70% of them are homeless and immigrant and are waiting to back to their home.
3. Israel call Palestinians animals walking on two leg and believe Palestine land is for Jew and Palestinians are no worthy to have Palestine land.
The problem 1 is for that the two main political wing of Palestine (Hamas, Fath) have conflict in political doctrine. Hamas says fighting against Israel is the solution, but Fath says talking until peace is solution. but history showed the solution of Fath is not workable. This disunity has been the main obstacle against unite Palestinians policy. recently Hamas and Fath agreed on unit policy.
http://edition.presstv.com/detail/178245.html
Referendum is the solution for problem 1. and all people born in Palestine including native Muslim Palestinians, native Christian Palestinians and native Jew Palestinians should can vote and boundary is not important for vote.
About Kurdistan any government does not accept one of its states want to become a independent country.
Tony Sanchez
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-05/israel-fires-on-protesters-at-golan-border-killing-three-syrian-tv-says.html
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Someone needs to get very serious with withholding aid. emabrgoing, snaction everyone over there iwho is not contributing to Peace.
Breaching borders???? what were the syrians thunking.. Peaceful protests dont breach borders.. So a bad on them too. None of it helps.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
sanction is in hand of UN.
and UN is in hand of US (by VETO and pressing UN by not paying monies of UN in hand of US) and who is under sanction is Iran and Syria:
no bank in world accept any money transaction from/to Iran/Syria,.... do you know what effect has this in economy and import/export of a country?
if some one want to send money for his child educating in a foreign country no bank accept it.
companies are banned to sell products to Iran.
sanctions of Iran are two type:
one is by UN
and other are by US pressing companies and countries to not do business with Iran out of UN rules.
even websites does not allow their software be downloaded in Iran. for example for Google desktop:
http://desktop.google.com/desktop/blocked_ip.html does Google desktop has any relation to nuclear?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._sanctions_against_Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iran
this is UN
and still UN and world has no evidence that Iran is making nuclear nuke. only propaganda.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
"As James Fallows of The Atlantic put it so accurately, Netanyahu is the "Dick Cheney of Israel," characterizing the former vice president as someone who, "mistook short-term intransigence for long-term strategic wisdom, seemed blind and tone-deaf to the 'moral' and 'soft power' components of influence, profited from a polarized and fearful political climate, and attempted to command rather than earn support from allies and potential adversaries." In giving Netanyahu more standing ovations than their own president, Congressional Democrats have joined Republicans in effectively endorsing a Dick Cheney approach to the Middle East."
So If Zunes analysis is correct, and it makes perfect sense to me, it may bepossible the President is tryuing to draw Congress away from their long held militaristics views and doesn't have much support even among the democratic leadership. So perhaps those of us who want this settled need to send a strong clear message to Debbie Wasserman Schuktz ( the new democratic leader) and to our own local Congressmen that we want a different stratgey in the middle east
Jim Moonan 30+
The fact of the matter is that creationism and intelligent design has not made any significant headway in becoming a part of our public school curriculum. We teach the theory of evolution in all of our public school systems.
Please be careful when throwing out statements like the one above, and this one: "And to my knowledge, the number of domestic violence towards women in the US is astonishingly high." I do not, in fact, know for certain that the US has higher numbers per capita than other countries, but I doubt it. I'll follow up and get some better data than what you linked.
I get the sense you are not a big fan of the USA....
Richard Dawson 30+
@ Tony Sanchez [in reply to "Perhaps Western culture is more enlightened, especially regarding women and the role of religion in government"] "It's a matter of opinion. Many politicians in the states have promoted the teaching of creationism.
As for regarding women, Turkey granted suffrage to women before France, Spain, Italy and Portugal. And to my knowledge, the number of domestic violence towards women in the US is astonishingly high."
1. Turkey did not grant universal suffrage to women before Spain or Portugal. Both of them granted it in 1931, whereas Turkey did in 1934 (for local elections in 1930), Italy in 1946 the year it became a Republic. (New Zealand in 1893, Australia 1902, Canada in 1917, The UK in 1918 and the US in 1920)
2. The modernisation of Turkey was forced upon it by Kemal Ataturk and did not come about by democratic consensus.
3. Many Turks consider themselves as part of the West and in any case they are not a typical example of a Muslim country, one fast sliding back to theocratic influences.
4. That Turkey granted universal suffrage before France and Italy does not refute that Western culture is more enlightened, especially regarding women and the role of religion in government [unstated than Muslim countries]
5. United Arab Emirates granted Universal Suffrage only in 2006, Kuwait in 2005, Oman in 2003, Qatar in 1997 and Saudi Arabia does not allow women to vote at all.
6. Women's rights are a sum of many things, not only universal suffrage
7. That domestic violence is "astonishingly high" in the US, says nothing of the comparison of domestic violence with Muslim countries, specially where the concepts differ and statistics on this are poor or absent.
8. In every Muslim country, except Bangladesh and Turkey, the religious Sharia law has some legal force in the constitution. In many it trumps civil law.
Thus the statement is backed by evidence.
Jim Moonan 30+
Tony Sanchez
"Many politicians in the states have promoted the teaching of creationism."
In no way have I mentioned that it was indeed taught, or was ever going to be taught in public schools.
"And to my knowledge, the number of domestic violence towards women in the US is astonishingly high."
Again, in no way have I mentioned the United States having higher or lower rates of domestic violence towards women "per capita than other countries". I was pointing at the fact that the West is not qualified to give lessons. And the word "enlightenment" holds a religious connotation that unmistakably leads to a comparison between Judeo-Christianism and Islam. Perhaps I should have posted a comment about France to avoid disturbing the peace. As for your comment on being a "fan of the US", I'm not really sure what it meant so I will leave it there.
@ My Dear Richard Dawson
I see you're a wikipedia man so I had to search within your sources.
I have failed in clearing some facts, out of context. Spain had granted suffrage to women in 1931. Spain, believe it or not, was a fascist nation. From 1947 until 1977, women had no right to vote (no rights at all for that matter). Therefore claiming that Spain granted Universal Suffrage in 1931, is incorrect or at least incomplete.
Portugal on the other hand, granted the right to vote for women with secondary education from 1931. This is where you probably went: "HA!, got you lier!". Well, giving the right to vote to woman with secondary education in Portugal in 1931, comes to grant the same right today in, let's say the US, only to women with a Phd(read about portuguese history of that period, then post back if you think a secondary education level was a common thing for women to have in that time). Portuguese women had to wait until 1971 for the Universal Suffrage.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufragio_femenino
PS: I hope the fact that this is an ES(Spanish) 'Wiki' won't discredit its content ;)
Richard Dawson 30+
But my contentions remain true.
1. The west indisputably has separated Religion from Government, whereas Muslim countries have not. Not only that but many Muslim immigrants to western nations have started demanding the implementation of Sharia Law in western nations and some countries like Britain, have given into this demand, which is a very disturbing trend.
2. Your argument implying that women do not have more equality in the west compared to Muslim countries on the basis that Turkey gave universal franchise to women before Spain, Portugal, France and Italy is fallacious and misleading. Turkey is only about 4.5% of the total Muslim population of the world and was modernised by force by Kemal Ataturk. 23 European and American Nations gave universal Franchise before Turkey (from your Spanish Wikipedia link), including mine (the first).
3. Belief in Creationism / disbelief in Evolution is far higher in Muslim countries than western nations.
Thus my contention that your trying to cast doubt on Jim's statement is misleading and erroneous remains true.
(Granted the word "enlightened" should not have used - too vague. He should have simply stated that women have more equality in the west and religion is mixed with government in Muslim countries with all its attendant ills, unlike the west.)
Tony Sanchez
"Hi Tony, I grant that Spain having granted universal suffrage in 1931, withdrew it from 1947 to 1977 and Portugal only partially gave women the right to vote from 1931. I apologise for using the word lie. Erroneous statements would have been a better word"
Neither of the words 'Lie' or 'Erroneous' apply to my comment (not statement). Text comprehension is indeed taught in public school I believe. So I suggest you re-read my comment, carefully, or simply refrain from playing a pointless back and forth game.
"Thus my contention that your trying to cast doubt on Jim's statement is misleading and erroneous remains true."
Grammar is, and this I know for a fact, taught(to some extend) in public schools. Re-read your own sentence, if you really must, and please 'enlighten' me on the sense you were trying to make.
I replied to the comment both Jim and Birdia made, and clarified my point. Case closed.
Richard Dawson 30+
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution#Public_support
And the link for support to my earlier statements:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage#Table_of_international_women.27s_suffrage
(The last link doesnt work - copy and paste)
Correction: Dates above are the first date women were allowed to participate (by voting) in elections, not the date that women were granted universal suffrage without restrictions (though it does apply to New Zealand etc).
(Restrictions exist in UAE and Kuwait and whereas women are allowed to vote in UAE, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Libya etc. since there have been no democratic elections, that permission is a bit of a farce).
Comment deleted
Jim Moonan 30+
Private schools are free to develop their own curriculua and are not bound to the same rules that schools that recieve taxpayer funding.
Because I think that open dialog and discussion leads to understanding, I think creationism/intelligent design theory should be offered as a philosophy in college.
I also think that no religion should be taught in elementary schools in any way, shape or form. I can't think of anything more crucial to the survival of modern societies than separation of church and state. I can live peacefully with anyone who abides by that.
But the US public schools are not teaching intelligent design as far as I know. (Although many attempts have been made by far right born-again republican conservatives to force it into the system) To date, we continue to be successful at whacking them down every time they pop their heads up.
As an educator, I think there is no bigger battle to be fought and won than the battle to protect our educational system from being infiltrated by those who would force their own personal religious beliefs on our children, our future leaders. I'm not one of those that wants to wipe religion off the face of the earth. Just one who wants religion to be a framework for living a good life for anyone who wants to use it as such.
Attention TED Police: So, what I'm saying is that the problems that Israel and the future Palestine face are rooted in education. That's why I believe no peace accord will be complete unless it includes an educational component to "clear the field of weeds".
Richard Dawson 30+
And that is the heart of the matter.
Re my post in reply to yours was in reply to Tony Sanchez's reply to yours. I pointed out the inaccuracies in his statement.
Birdia you would know if their curriculum was different to public schools then. Did they teach creationism?
Tony Sanchez
And I doubt this is the question in the minds of Palestinians right now.
Richard Dawson 30+
Debra Smith 200+
Richard Dawson 30+
Debra Smith 200+
I directly addressed this statement: Would you admit that teaching of hatred to Palestine children on the basis of religion will only worsen and perpetuate the problem?
Perhaps this is why King David was denied the right to build the temple- warriors do not know how to build consensus.
Tony Sanchez
"Hello Tony. What IS in the minds of the Palestinians, do you happen to know?"
Please, I've read your comments, we might not agree on everything but I'm sure you know better. Do not ask me a rhetorical question of this kind.
@ Richard
"Tony would you agree that education and the quality of education is of crucial importance to resolving the Palestine-Israel problem? Would you admit that teaching of hatred to Palestine children on the basis of religion will only worsen and perpetuate the problem?"
I agree that a higher system of education is required WORLDWIDE.
I also agree that a certain grudge is indeed present in the education, not in schools(for those lucky enough to have schools) of many Palestinians. As much as I agree that the same hostility and hatred is also present in the education of young Israeli and Jewish schools around the globe.
I think we can all agree that absolutely no point has been made by this 'enlightened' statement ;)
EDIT: Yawning was offensive to some users. I respectfully withdraw it from my comment.
Jim Moonan 30+
I went to private schools early on, until my family imploded and I was shipped off to public schools. I feel most of my formal education was uninspiring to say the least - until I reached college. Then, mostly because of one professor, the lid to my brain came off and I haven't found it since!!
Jim Moonan 30+
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;
Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets,
The muttering retreats
Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels
And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells:
Streets that follow like a tedious argument
Of insidious intent
To lead you to an overwhelming question
Oh, do not ask, “What is it?”
Let us go and make our visit."
My final thoughts on the subject before moving on to tend my own garden:
My nation is the immigrant nation… The compassionate nation… The liberal-minded nation of ideas and possibilities… The nation that leads the fight against racism, bigotry… That champions individual freedoms… Where is that nation now?
Bring anything to my attention and I will give it my attention. Global geo-politics be damned. Global geo-politics be damned. Power struggles between nations be damned. Religions that don't stand up and condemn violence and hatred be damned. Those who would turn deserts into malls and malls into wastelands be damned.
Give me trust! Give me understanding through compassion! Give me compromise! Start over!
Jim Moonan 30+
I’m still lost. And how does the US respond to the claims and accusations of Chomsky? They let him speak. (It reminds me of the lines in the T.S. Eliot poem, The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock : “That is not it at all/That is not what I meant, at all.”)
My head is swimming in coffee and confusion. Chomsky deals in the global power struggles that have marked our civilizations throughout the ages. He’s a historian philosopher; very articulate and knowledgeable as hell. So what does he do with his knowledge? He paints pictures. Stand far enough away and it looks like he's on to something; but get closer............ Those who don’t like his “art” will “paint” their own pictures. It does nothing to help the cause to keep pushing each other’s faces into the whole mess.
If there is one piece of logic that always deflates me, it is this: One person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist.
Could this be true: Sometimes history should be forgotten. Sometimes the only thing to do is start over. For example, take the computer you are looking at to read my comments. Sometimes things just go horribly, inexplicably wrong with it and no amount of “Troubleshooting” or “Help” makes any difference. There’s just no way out but to turn the dam thing off and start over. Reboot. Erase. Start anew. That’s the overwhelming feeling I get every time I wade into this issue. Forget the history. Start over.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
.so, please, count me out on this little collective characterization,thanks
.I do agree with you bottom line though..and said that a couple of times above..we should have zero tolerance in a complex moder n wolrd with so many pressing global issues for allowing a recurring revisitation of ancient ethnic and religious battles to cause so much unrest and instability to command so much of the worlds energy and resources
.That's when I checked out of this conversation...becuse it continued on with all this ancient history.and wasn't focusing on what it takes to bring about a two nation solution. The U.S. is key..it and the U.N. basicallyhave to say that as a matter of policy..( I said that above as well)
Tony Sanchez
Israel illegally owns Nuclear heads. If they claim their purpose is the defense of their state, why couldn't Iran own nuclear weapons for their own defense? I am against all Nuclear power for defense/military purposes. But for argument sake. What makes Israel so special in this world? And btw, this is rhetorical, please don't say "because they're the chosen ones".
Jáfia Câmara 50+
People need to understand that it is not easy for the Palestinians to simply ''get over it'' and recognize the state of Israel. What would you do if you were in their shoes? I would also have a hard time. Palestinians were kicked out of their land, their homes and they are now treated like immigrants in their own land.
I understand,however, that Israelis can't be kicked out of their lands today. I can't tell a 40 year old Israeli man who has lived his whole life there that he can't live there anymore. Two wrongs don't make a right and doing the same to Israel wouldn't be correct either. This is what the Palestinians need to understand and hopefully have some compassion and make an agreement with Israel.
I also think it makes it hard to negotiate with Israel since they have so much protection and the Palestinians don't have the same. Unequal bargaining power never results in a fair result.
Matthieu Miossec 100+
1. It's not a question of Israel vs. Palestine, it's not a question of supporting one or the other exclusively. When (and if) the borders of Palestine are formed, the state of Israel will still exist and, if anything, it will probably become less contested throughout the world.
2. The pre-1967 borders was always the suggested borders, it was always in the works. All Obama is doing is reminding people, especially the capricious Prime Minister Netanyahu, that this was always what we were aiming for.
The only reason Mr. Netanyahu complains is that he doesn't want to see this happen even though he says he wants to see a resolution in the conflict. If he wanted to see a conflict resolution happen so badly, he certainly wouldn't be building settlements in the West Bank. He knows as long as the US is on his side, he can do whatever is convenient to Israel only with impunity. Each time the world tries to condemn Israel, the Us veto the sanctions. In a way we could say that has made the state of Israel a spoiled brat. That Obama is attempting to give Netanyahu a reality-check is the best of news. Although probably not nearly enough to change the American way of thinking of the conflict.
By the way I use the word "American" lightly, I know not all Americans are enamored by Israel's "cause", whatever that may be...
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
.What specific actions do you think the persident should take to get out of the way?
Was it enough to just say go back to the '67 borders and work it out when after that he has siad he will back israel on its occupatin of the west bank and block any un considerationof a Palestinian State?
.And what about renouncing our governments insistence on a palestinaian regime chnage?..Don't we have to make some sort o commitment to the right of the plasetinian people to choose their own leadershipt?
Matthieu Miossec 100+
I have never heard Obama openly support the occupation of the West Bank. If you can send some article or something relating to that, I'd much appreciate it. As for the UN declaration of a Palestinian state, I think that's a great initiative that'll put pressure on Israel if they decide not to budge. It's regrettable that the US will indeed probably veto it. The motive this time might be that Obama wants to avoid the creation of Palestine being done in an underhanded way. The problem is that negotiations as Obama would like them have failed for decades. There's no reason they'll work now.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
I had missed them too..from Democarcy Now
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/23/headlines#1
Wasn't this date ( May 23rd) after the President's Mideast Speech and also after Netanyahu's? Speech before Congress??
Tim Colgan 50+
Richard Dawson 30+
How does an alliance between two rival Palestinian parties who have been killing each other in the past show a willingness by others to "to let ..Palestinians decide what kind of government they want?"
What would stop the Palestinian state from shelling /rocketing / carrying out terror attacks on Israel? If Hamas today promises peace is its word to be trusted?
Matthieu Miossec 100+
I never mentioned others. I think the recent alliance between the Fatah and Hamas shows a willingness on the part of the Fatah and Hamas to let the Palestinians decide what kind of government they want rather than either imposing themselves.
Many fight for the right to a country, by creating a Palestinian state, there is less incentive for violence against Israel, the Palestinians deserve a state, you can't forever deny it to them on account of the violent acts they carry out against Israel. I don't condemn those acts of violence, but I understand them. How do you think it feels not having a proper country of your own for so many decades? Don't fool yourself either, just because the violence Israel carries out on its neighbours is done in the framework of a government, doesn't make it any more legitimate.
It's pretty obvious most people are looking at it the wrong way. We never think of the WWII French resistance as terrorists do we? Because we can empathise with their necessary acts of violence. But maybe the Palestinians are too foreign for some of us? Some people need to read up on the history of the conflict and put themselves in the shoes of the Palestinians.
Debra Smith 200+
Matthieu Miossec 100+
There's also a really good show on Channel 4 (UK) called 'The Promise' that looks at the really early days of the conflict (it's fiction, but on a historically accurate backdrop).
Laura Bickle
Tony Sanchez
If you think about the subject, whoever and whatever you are, it is insane. Media and entertainment devotion had people drifting away from their ability to reason.
Jim Moonan 30+
Right that things have gone horribly wrong in that region for (at least) 64 years.
Wrong that you think debate by us here at TED doesn't make a difference. My opinions are being developed and changed by this conversation. Don't I count?
Debra Smith 200+
Tony Sanchez
Right that things have gone horribly wrong in that region for (at least) 64 years.
Wrong that you think debate by us here at TED doesn't make a difference. My opinions are being developed and changed by this conversation. Don't I count?"
"Wow Jim, thanks for that good thought!"
I was referring to a wider box. But quiet honestly, no; you're right. I do not think your opinion, Debra's enthusiasm to a good thought(?), or TED(I would not consider the "us here at TED" to be appropriate since this is a public conversation, not TED), my own opinion or anyone else's here in this forum, doesn't make one single bit of difference to the Palestinian/Israel conflict.
The debates and conversations here can be important to some of us as individual. Learn from others, discuss and exchange ideas and thoughts. This might not be the lightest of topics, and yet this is where I chose to introduce myself to you(plural). But using words such as "right" and "wrong" to judge my position, thoughts, believes or any other personal opinion I might express shows that, beyond cultural arrogance, you have very little regards toward anyone who doesn't think like you. So Jim. Don't I count?
Laura Bickle
Until we can truly understand these issues for ourselves, we cannot know the truth of the situation. We cannot affect positive change unless we understand these issues. If every individual strives for this understanding, change is inevitable.
Ignorance is bliss!
Debra Smith 200+
How profound was that! You really triggered a thought:
Ignorance IS bliss- for us- it can sure be hell for the others that we are ignorant about and lend our unintentional dead weight against.
Jim Moonan 30+
"But using words such as "right" and "wrong" to judge my position, thoughts, believes or any other personal opinion I might express shows that, beyond cultural arrogance, you have very little regards toward anyone who doesn't think like you. So Jim. Don't I count?"
The short answer is “yes”. You absolutely do count. I would not bother to respond to you if that weren’t the case. I think you are a powerful thinker with some intriguing perspectives very different from my own. These TED conversations certainly won’t change the world, but they can change minds. And who knows what that will lead to???
I'll avoid using the word "wrong" in the future if it makes you feel better. Please do point out to me, however, when you think I'm wrong. It helps me to re-assess my thoughts. That's what these debates are so useful for - not to solve the Palestinian problem (I never thought that's what we were doing here) but to gain insight into how other's see things and perhaps in the process have my own views changed.
But you say I'm culturally arrogant and that I have very little regard for those who don't think like me. I think your baiting me, to be honest.
You've made a number of comments that clearly show your distaste (understatement) for the American culture and I've responded in defense of it. It's my opinion that the views you've expressed about the USA are not accurate and I'd love to have the opportunity to express why. But if your response to my attempts is that I'm arrogant and exclusive, then where would that get me??
Trying to communicate in writing about issues as sensitive as we are discussing is sometimes like trying to walk through a minefield. You never know if your next step is going to explode in your face. Going forward, I hope we avoid stepping on any more verbal “mines” because I respect your opinion more than I think you give me credit for.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
meet you at the finish line
Tony Sanchez
First of all: Likewise. if I reply to your comments is because, to this day, I read everyone of your posts in the conversations I take part in. Sometimes I agree, entirely or partially, sometimes I don't, to the same extend.
I am as much of a passionate for culture, and extensively North American culture, that I am against its government's philosophy. I try not no mix the people with their leaders, and that for all nations.
After reading your response, it did strike me that "cultural arrogance" wasn't only an erroneous statement from my part but it could also have been offensive. For that, I apologize.
I was referring to the mention you made earlier of me sounding like a conspiracy theorist, which is what I believe to be the strongest card for whom the bubble of living in the greatest of nations should never be popped. We both have strong convictions, and neither one of us is going to change the other's.
I agree in focusing on the positive exchanges and on what we can learn from others.
PS: Galileo was also a conspiracy theorist ;)
Jim Moonan 30+
I'm glad we took the time to re-set.
And glad you made the distinction between american culture and government. I'm passionate about the former and learning more and more about the latter that I don't like. But I DO like Obama (you have to understand that I am a survivor of the "W" years and having Obama come along was like being woken up from a bad - very bad - dream. So I'm good with him.
I do disagree with you, though, on the fact that because we might have strong convictions we will never change each other’s views. Stranger things have happened… Seriously, I don't think we will ever merge as thinkers, but we most definitely will learn from each other. That's good enough for me.
Interesting about Galileo.... Did you know that Alexander the Great was an alcoholic?
Debra Smith 200+
http://youtu.be/s9pL0ZO3tHQ
It is illegal to arm any nation that is a consistent violator of human rights:
http://youtu.be/y6jqI6g9zhs
Finkelstein faces down the justification of Israel's actions by the holocaust card:
http://youtu.be/A5drXEXkf9s
********Addition:
The Goldstone report and Gaza invasion:
http://youtu.be/KpMpHgw7yVk
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
all good links..and certainly it is very very hard to reconcile our (U.S.) no caveat renewal of $30 billion to israel for arms,. our continued military support, all our vetoes f UN rsolytions when all this has gone on
. Until U.S. policy really chnages and relaly lines up with some concept of universal jusitce we are part of the poblem and not part of the solution.
Did Obama throw Israel under the bus?
No
But he didn't do much either in his turn at the helm to right the ship or make a real course correction.
If that is your point I am with you.
No question in my heart, in my mind now that the US is part of the problem and not really doing what it needs to do to finally become part of the solution
let's drat a letter to the president that reflects all we have leanerd here post ithere send it out around the world through our combined networks?
Needs to be short, sweet. clear, really at the core of it..no long tangents and twists and turns.
Debra Smith 200+
I was supporting points that I had made in previous posts and I was posting information that I stumbled upon after following someone's link. I am not even sure whose it was because I feel that my mind has been in major expansion mode from the great stuff that people have been sharing here on TED. What an awesome community!Funny you should suggest drafting a letter to the President, I was just thinking of writing one to my Prime Minister who has been a total supporter of Israel!
I guess where I am stymied though is why is the world ignoring this? Why is Israel so powerful?
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
I 'veleaned more in two weeks (????) here than I ever knew. Whe I tke on issues myself that I want to know the truth about it's a very difficulkt, very time consuimg process.. This wonderful place that i sours..as long as we use it wisely and well..gives us opportunities that exist no where else to get right to the heart of it.
I feel I have.
I am definitely going to do a piece for my posterous blog and I may actually send a letter.
Would love to see your letter..Please share it with me if you wowuld, via Ted Email.
Ehis Odijie 10+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
By the way i am still waiting for your supprt of the Blair staement you made twice here..that blair used religion to justify the Iraq war.. I see nothing close to that anywhere..where dod you get such an idea???
Ehis Odijie 10+
Even your president (Bush) said God told him to "end the tyranny" in Iraq. That was justifying a war on a religious base. . Just because the media made no fuss off it doesn't change the meaning.
Read the articles below
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4773852.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4772142.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/dec/23/uk.religion2
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/5373525/Tony-Blair-believed-God-wanted-him-to-go-to-war-to-fight-evil-claims-his-mentor.html
Debra Smith 200+
I appreciate that hand that you extend in friendship and I offer mine in return!
Debra Smith 200+
But what is the whole point of remembering if we do not generalize the lessons so that we NEVER do the same thing to another person?
My point in posting Finkelsteins rebuttal of that young woman at a Canadian university is that - I loved his final line to the effect that anyone with a heart in their chest should be crying for ongoing injustices today.
Now is our time to fight injustice. Now is the time our integrity and our hearts are being tested. Will we pass or fail when future generations judge us?
Ehis Odijie 10+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
I guess knowing that there is always a hidden agenda emerging from the personal values and beliefs o national leaders we just have to keep an even closer eye on whether what they say makes sense and stands up to scrutiny..have to really do what we can to discern the truth and bring the truth to light.
I think the problem is most of us who think we are diligent and discerning just don't know how much we don't know.
Tim Colgan 50+
Israel is and always has been in basic survival mode. The Jews, particularly after the holocaust, wanted a place to call their own. They established a place, Israel, and have been doing everything they can to hold on to it.
That aspect is understandable, isn't it?
Tony Sanchez
Debra Smith 200+
Tony Sanchez
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3325/has_the_holocaust_card_been.html
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Visiting this issue does take us unavoidably back to the very beginning of creating a jewish homeland..to the fact that both Britain and the US did not want jewish refugees..we even interred them here in the US
...it takes us back before that to the conditions which allowed the holocaust to emerge in the firta place..to the internationally popular eugenics movement.
.anti semitism persisted very strongly in post-war america..arthur miller did a movie on that..the holocaust card is a multi national cross cultural dark shadow on many nations..a shadow still present...still shaping so much
.I think it would take a core group of discerning commenters to keep it on track and explore it but we certainly need to visit together and Ted Conversation allows us to do that in way that is not possible anywhere else.
Debra Smith 200+
http://youtu.be/e7Z-4oFVCR8
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I watched this movie. I could understand Clinton but I did not understand Noam well (for my language).
but I do not believe mis. Clinton. she is biased to Israel and they easily say lie to collect votes.
also about wikileaks I do not trust it 100%. I think it is a mix of truth information for gaining attention and also fake information for supporting propaganda and and policies of US in middle-east.
do you believe FBI and pentagon are sitting and watching wiki leaks revealing their secrets and they do not take any action?
totally I did not understand the sayings of Chomsky. so better to not have any feedback. appreciate is you add some brief to your video links or refer a text link with your videos containing the content of video.
Tim Colgan 50+
| http://www.alternet.org/rights/149032/noam_chomsky:_wikileaks_cables_reveal_%22profound_hatred_for_democracy_on_the_part_of_our_political_leadership%22?page=entire
Debra Smith 200+
Tim Colgan 50+
If anyone disagrees please address specific points.
His main point - US talks democracy. But it's actions speak otherwise.
Jim Moonan 30+
Position:
The Jews deserve a state.
The Palestinians deserve a state.
Just as the Jews were given territory in 1947, the Palestinians deserve the same recognition.
Conditions:
1. Independent states of Israel and Palestine based on the pre-1967 agreement with mutually agreed swaps.
2. A Palestinian constitution that includes specific language that supports Israel's right to exist and to live within their own state.
3. An amendment to the Israeli constitution that specifically says the same regarding Palestine.
4. Governments that condemn religious extremism and establish laws to prosecute those who practice or preach it.
5. A UN sponsored peacekeeping force to patrol common borders
6. A UN sponsored educational program for children that teaches tolerance of diversity
Comment deleted
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
I do not know this is on-topic or off topic. but I (and I think almost all Muslims) disagree this assumptions:
"The Jews deserve a state"
"the UN can help Palestinians"
are you sure Palestinians recognize territory in 1947?
if you want to talk by this assumptions OK, continue. but I recommend starting other topic about realty of such assumptions.
then land was given by Imperialistic British in a un-humanitarian process that Palestinians do not recognize it.
the UN many many times wanted to stop Israel but always US VETO stopped UN.
actually Israel could not survive without VETO of US.
it is clear that UN has clear support of Israel always by vetoes in favor Israel.
I think the vetoes of US in favor of Israel and not recognizing Palestinian rights is near 80 times (not sure exact).
do you know the last year report of UN about humanity in Palestine?
even if all countries in UN want to support Palestinian people the VETO comes and cancel it.
educational program for children and so on are only show off.
UN can not do any thing against Israel.
Jim Moonan 30+
First and foremost, you don't seem to like playing by the rules. You will say the rules are not fair, etc. etc. etc. and that there is a world conspiracy against Palestinians, etc. etc. etc. but the fact of the matter is, you don't wan t to play by the rules. You can dispute the rules and seek changes in them through appropriate channels and garner support for the change to take place, but instead you refuse to join the world as it wrestles with it's problems and issues and instead by default become the problem.
As Bob Dylan sang: "The times they are a-changin'". Change is constant. To stand still is to slip backwards.
Secondly, and even more concerning given the fact that my life's work is in the field of education, is your response, "educational program for children and so on are only show off."
For me, that says you are not interested in the single most powerful tool for change in this world: education. For you to pass this suggestion off as deception only deepens my concern that your mind is closed to change. I wish you would give this serious thought and re-consider.
Tim Colgan 50+
US has consistently vetoed UN resolutions against Israel.
Matthieu Miossec 100+
Jáfia Câmara 50+
You are right. The UN is worthless and the USA does whatever they want to do.
Salim Solaiman 50+
@ Jim I agree what you said about power of education but I really doubt about UN capability of executing anything without US interference. I know it by heart from the history of my country, my nation & US+ UN stance against it. UN is just B team of US.
We need peace defintely , but keeping religion on top of the agenda?
Don't see any hope in near future , don't know which way the Midlle East will evolve and how again it will be influenced by Big Bosses depends much on that.
Richard Dawson 30+
UN being just a B team of the US maybe a bit harsh, but I have just been reading about the Bangladesh Liberation War. Fascinating.
Though "During the war there were widespread killings and other atrocities – including the displacement of civilians in Bangladesh (East Pakistan at the time) and widespread violations of human rights – carried out by the Pakistan Army with support from political and religious militias", the US supported Pakistan with weapons and encouraged China to supply weapons also and sent its Aircraft carrier to try and bully the Indians.
The USSR tried to counter this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Liberation_War#Atrocities
"Though the United Nations condemned the human rights violations, it failed to defuse the situation politically before the start of the war."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Liberation_War#Foreign_reaction
I think the lesson is we need to make the UN more effective if we are to stop wars and have peace.
Richard Dawson 30+
In other words most Muslims disagree that Israel deserves to exist.
I agree with SR on that (what most Muslims think). Though I do not agree with that thought.
@ SR "land was given by Imperialistic British in a un-humanitarian process that Palestinians do not recognize it."
That is not true. The land was bought off Palestinians by the Jews. There was plenty of land in Palestine for both the Jews and Palestinians but the Arabs then as now did not accept the Jews. The Jews asked the Arabs to stay in Israel but the Arab armies invaded the day after their declaration of independence and they lost.
The Jewish people have a right to that land because they:
1. Settled and developed the land
2. The international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and
3 The territory was captured in defensive wars
That Muslim people do not accept Israel's right to exist is a religious based reason that they want to be the bosses and rulers of the world. It is a supremacist notion. Religious and Supremacist ideologies have no place in modern society. There can be no peace till they are around.
SR You said that justice should be to all people. The Jewish people were in Mecca and Medina. There were many Jewish tribes in Medina - they should have the right to return there. The Cypriots should also be allowed and the Armenians and the Southern Sudanese and the Africans of Darfur.
You talk about 1,000 Palestinian deaths during the Gaza war, over a million people died in Sudan. I dont hear you or Muslims or Muslim countries wanting to condemn that. Why is that?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
you are right I not want to play in your game.
because this is not game.
childs in palestine are not killed by toy guns.
they are killed by war guns and war ballets:
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2000.html
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2010.html
and homes are not destroyed by toy bulldozers.
they are destroyed by CAT bulldozers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
http://www.ubq.it/kufia/img/upload/1093438935stopcat.jpg
http://salem-news.com/gphotos/1289206312.jpg
the real change is in people of U.S.
about show off I mean programs in Palestine by international organization.
but generally I believe education. I myself am university teacher and understand you.
thanks for your teach. and I am open to change and develop. I appreciate.
TED developed me.
Jim Moonan 30+
So that you understand my position:
I am only basically informed of the history of the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis and think, in some respects, it gives me the freedom to look at the situation with more objectivity.
I believe both should have a place to call home. What I would love to see happen is that they both shared the same land. Afterall, they both seem to claim the same land and both seem to share some of the same history and experiences.... Right?
(I know this will not be the solution - It's just the vision of someone (me) who thinks that when people get a chance to know each other they generally get along and appreciate each other's personal struggles better)
Question: Do you believe Israel should have land they can call their own?
The links you've referenced all seem to be pro-Palestinian/anti-Israeli and yet they also appear to be based and operating and disemminating their information from the US.
Question: If a pro-Israeli organization started by Iranian nationals where to set up shop in Iran and begin to elicit the support of the Iranian people for the plight of the Israeli's, what would happen to that organization?
Your view of education and my view of education seem to differ. I believe the opportunities for education take place from the moment of birth and in every situation - in the home, in elementary schools, in the community in which people live, etc. In fact, the education I'm referring to that needs to take place takes place well before the university level.
Yes, the fact that you are using TED to communicate your ideas is good!!!!
You are clearly well-educated and have a very well-developed view of the world. But I would respectfully add that in our exchanges you don't give me a sense that you are truly informed of the incredible positives of modern societies. I would suggest you can hold onto your religious beliefs AND live a fuller, more meaningful life. Tolerance is a virtue!
Jim Moonan 30+
The rules are not a part of a game being played.
They are the rules established by a multi-national organization specifically for the purpose of managing complex problems. If you don't like the rules, then follow the rules to change the rules. Don't walk away from them as if it WERE a game!!! Be a part of the solution!!!!!!
joe anonmus
and in general attacking civilians is propagated openly in your world as a holy war and
is tottally appreciated and cheered by the mobs
it is well known that kindergarden education and up in the Palestinian authority is extremely hateful
your statements as most pf your leftist friends are one sided and extremely hypocratical
so dear friend
we intend to live and we truly think youtr policies are meant squarely and directly against that simple fact
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
the league of nations (later UN) said British should consult to Palestine to can grow (British Mandate for Palestine). but British abused this mandate and occupied Palestine by help of Zionism barbarity.
actually the real reason of this decision of British was to control the Arab nations to not get unity against British. actually it was a trade between Zionism and British. Zionism gets land and pay the price of land by killing and controlling Arab nations against British empire.
do you know how Ottoman empire collapsed? British said to Arab nations if you help us and make war against Ottoman empire we help you to become independent of Ottoman empire. and stupid Arab Kings (some things like today Mubarak) started war against Ottoman empire. but after collapse of Ottoman Arab Kings received Israel as the reward of helping British to destroy Ottoman empire. then British both destroyed Ottoman and also controlled Arabs from getting power by settling Israel near Arabs.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"follow the rules to change the rules. "
what are those rules to change the rules?
Debra Smith 200+
That is a really good and valid question. How does anyone change the rules when only the US and Israel are making them right now?
Jim Moonan 30+
Let's call the UN what it really is: A vehicle to promote the survival of modern western societies.
Maybe the rules you want to change need to be changed by creating your own UN that promotes what you believe needs to be protected. Then the two could come up with rules of engagement with each other... Just trying to think imaginatively!!!!
The UN is not the vehicle for peace in the case of the Israeli/Paliestinian conflict. They've shown that time and time again. The hope for peace lies in the two sides garnering enough trust in each other to make bold decisions forget history and start anew.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Tose of uswho are An,erican can say that to our president and to our Secretay of State...and should
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_3379
List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
and VETO
jimmy carter said: i prefer political suicide to leave supporting Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/jimmy-carter-to-u-s-jews-forgive-me-for-stigmatizing-israel-1.1609
the US and UN and EU do whatever Israel wants them to do.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"Question: Do you believe Israel should have land they can call their own?"
yes they can have land.
actually the real problem is not land.
the real problem is Zionism ideologies. mainly:
1- racism (we are the selected nation by God and God loves only us and non-Jew are worthless and equal to animals) http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:18
2- Palestine is promised land by God to Jew. Jew all should be collected in this land and should be clean of any non-jew.. ( they claim because near 3000 years ago two of us (David and Solomon (peace on them) lived in this land for a short time so this land is for us for ever. the land was for Arabs in 3000 years without Jew leaving in Palestine).
3- destructive war and killing all non-Jew including animals childs women because deviated teaches of old testimonial. today torah is deviated and writed by humans many years after Moses (peace on him). interesting: the story of 30 days howl for death of Moses (peace on him) is reported detail in torah. prophet himself report howl of himself?
other deviated teaches of torah:
immigration to Israel land (aliyah) is necessary.
Yahveh (God) is especial for Jew and does not want other people.
only jew go to heaven and other to hell.
Israwli is higher than angel.
who hit a jew should be killed
all benefits of people are for jew including their money and land and jew can get the money of non-jew by usury.
without jew no life existed
all creatures are made for use of jew and so jew can get the life of other
killing jew is crime and killing non-jew has reward by god
a jew should not save a non-jew even if fallen in a hole should put a stone on hole.
sex with non-jew has no pinish because they are animal and animal needs no marrage.
jew should treate non-jew as animals.
God sent 39 book to Moses (peace on him)?!
Researchers say all versions of old testimonial are written at least near 2500 years after death of moses (peace on him)
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:79
joe anonmus
yor letters are abusing and I'll try to get some facts right: responding to yor numerals:
1) Israel as a state does not support or represents these opinions - while elected leaders in the Palestinian authorities certainly do, in accordance with the very wide spread fundamentalist Islam movements.
2 ) this was recoded in the Bible , Historically there was a Jewish kingdom for many hundreds of years in the land f Israel, and a continus settelment at all times
infact many Palestiniabn arabs are cnverted descendents of the old Jewish settelments.
since most jews were deprted from the Land of Israel by the Romans
abutr 500 years before the Muhammad and the Islam.
every jew often repeats " nest year in Jerusalem" for the last two thousand years/
3) insulting the scriptures is a low matter, if you are really intressted there actually is an answer in the Jewish tradition/
inthe Talmud, Baba Batra (the last gate) the question about how the passing away of Moses peace be on him, is described if the Torah was indeed written by him , two assumptions are given, one is that Jshua Bin -Noon, his predecessr wrote these specific lines, the other is that they were written by moses peace beon him himsellf, dictated gtfo him as all the Trah , by divine inspiratin, the page wet by his tears/
there is NO mention in the Jewish scriptures of yor fabrication that a jew will be rewarded if killing a non-Jew,, par consequence, there lies exactly the source f the Muslim distinction between those living inther " huse of swrd Bei El Harb, that is, us, the infidels
and those living in the " house of Peace Beit- El SALAM, whch are you Muslims,
(Iguess all you humanist champions f the Palestinian cause cn jump up now and
prove that this is racism, smehw , miraculously, as you often do, against the Arabs?t
more immediately
joe anonmus
on the whole, your letter is overtly antisemitic,
but this is no surprise, as this is truly the intrest of many of Israel's categorists
Zionsm has become aa poweful as it is after the holocaust,
if the Jews had a state of their own most would have been saved
but this, I suspect, to your great sorrow, again.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
Please note Zionism is different of Jew.
there are many Zionist not Jew and many Jew not Zionist like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Jim,
"Question: If a pro-Israeli organization started by Iranian nationals where to set up shop in Iran and begin to elicit the support of the Iranian people for the plight of the Israeli's, what would happen to that organization?"
after Iran revolution Imam Khomeini said:
US is great Satan and Israel is small Saran. and said Israel is a cancer tumor for world and should be wiped off from map.
Iran absolutely has no relation to US and Israel and import if any Israel made product into Iran is banned and any support of Israel is banned in Iran.
in scenario you said it will be closed immediately like US embassy in Iran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Israel_relations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhollah_Khomeini
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution
"you can hold onto your religious beliefs AND live"
you have a dark Image of religion.
you do not know what means religions in other side of world.
"our religion is the selfsame as our politics and our politics is selfsame as our religion"
Hassan Modarres (Iranian religious leader and politician and a leader in revolution that banished and terrorized by Shah, the friend of US in middle east)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Modarres
Jim Moonan 30+
Debra Smith 200+
http://www.truthout.com/netanyahus-speech-and-congressional-democrats-embrace-extremism/1307128075
Jim Moonan 30+
Obama is doing a tightrope walk. He is a master at this, but when it comes to international politics and affairs, it takes more than a master tightrope walker. It takes cooperation on all sides. It takes compromise on all sides. This is not a "war" where there can be a legitimate winner and loser. There must be a win/win solution or it will not end.
I have nothing but distain for our US congress. They are the main obstacle in the way of lots of crucial changes that Obama is trying valiantly to make happen.
Jim Moonan 30+
In my view, unless there is separation of church/mosque/temple, etc. and state, there will always be human atrocities commited in the name of God. It's a matter of growing/changing evolving religious beliefs in response to the natural evolution of humanity.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
we who are American can and should say that to the head of each party and to our own Congressional reps.
Debra Smith 200+
Edit
I have to add though that I think Palestine needs a clear and safe access to a port without interference to sustain itself and not be constantly embargoed.
Ehis Odijie 10+
Jim - the Jews have a state it is the Palestinians that deserve a state. Obama's call for pre-1967 borders seem to be the best way out – it is important to note that Israel prime minister refused pre-1967 agreement because of, in his words “ demographic changes” . I do not know what you think about that but it makes no sense to any neutral onlooker. I cannot imagine Israel proposing the pre-1967 agreement while the Palestinians disagree because of ‘demographic changes’.
That tells you the two sides are not equal on international front - Prime Minister Netanyahu addressed US congress and he said this.
When you have two unequal partners in a negotiation it usually produces a bad result.
The only solution is for Prime Minister Netanyahu to be ready to listen to Obama, wikileaks documents actually revealed that the delay for peace has been from Israel even when Palestine negotiators were ready to sacrifice more than the people could imagine.
Jim Moonan 30+
My hope is that Netanyahu is posturing and will be ready to compromise when and if it gets to a point of serious negotiations. I have great respect for Obama as a visionary and leader. It remains to bne seen if he is a leader of leaders...
The key thing in my view is not about territory, I think they can get the teritorial desputes settled. It's about trust about the right to exist. To my knowledge, Israel does not deny that Palestinians have a right to exist but the same is not true with the Palestinians.
Debra Smith 200+
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
how you an explain contradictions between what Obama say to his people and what says to Israel?
http://www.aipac.org/PC/webPlayer/2011-sunday-obama.asp
http://www.aipac.org/~/media/Publications/Policy%20and%20Politics/AIPAC%20Analyses/Issue%20Memos/2009/AIPAC_Memo_-_Obama-Netanyahu_Meeting_Important_Opportunity.pdf
obama is seeking for support for advertise to have votes.
no diffrence between obama or bush. all presidents have other president.
Tim Colgan 50+
Obama is a politician. He is working the power structures with the means at his disposal.
Jim Moonan 30+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
.The AIPAC piece you cited ( the only one I have read so far) doesn't conflict with the prseidents' Mideast Speech..if any thing it gives some hard realities which I have referred to throughout my commnetray here..that the U.S. is being squeezed out of the middle East..that Israel can't stand alone..that we haven't much to stand on..now is the moment to work it out.Nothing inconistent there.
Not truthul though, either I'd say.
And still very clearly hardly neutral..cleraly anti Palisinean
In fact when you put it all together it is sort o like saying
ok you guys are all uniited againt the U.S. and against Istael.. we are not abandoning Isreal..our interests and theirs are one.
Not even clear to me what excatly theu think tey have going that would chnage in nay way the clear balance against both the US and Israel
Ok you're winning..let's settle thtis right now???
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
please know AIPAC better. it is president of all US presidents.
"Ok you're winning..let's settle thtis right now??? "
sorry, you mean settle what?
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Ehis Odijie 10+
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-israel-peace-partner
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/the-palestine-papers-al-jazeera-trumps-wikileaks-1.338875
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41227965/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/palestinians-offered-israel-major-concessions-leaked-documents-reveal/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12263095
Debra Smith 200+
Jim Moonan 30+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
no he didn't
but he could have said more to put more pressure onboth parties to resolve this now and forever.
Ehis Odijie 10+
President Obama is the only one in my opinion that can solve this; the main problem is that Israel keeps receiving a blank check from US and UN.
The question of if ' Obama threw Israel under the bus' is completely irrelevant, it makes no sense. This is a problem between two sides and the best Obama can do is pretend to be neutral. I wonder if folks would ever ask if Obama threw Palestine under the bus . .
Debra Smith 200+
Jim Moonan 30+
You could be right - and if you are, things aren't as bad as I thought!!!
When one group of people (Palestinian Hamas) refuses to recognise that another group of people have a right to exist as a nation state, then you have a much bigger problem. To take the two groups and put them side by side in their own territories is like pitting two gladiators against each other.
The harder issue to solve in my view is trust and respect for each other.
I sometimes wish all the power brokers and military and politicians and religious leaders would just all take a long vacation and leave the people alone to live together.
"You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one."
-John Lennon "Imagine"
Debra Smith 200+
Jim have you had a chance to view any of the videos I posted which talk about the inequities in the reality of life in Palestine?
Tim Colgan 50+
Hamas with their insistence on Israel's destruction emerged out of a power vacuum where Palestinian compromise only resulted in increasing Israeli settlements. When the Palestinians see a path towards progress they will take it.
Look at Fatah right now. They are compromising in every way possible with Israel. Is it halting the settlements? No. Hamas' intransigence is necessary until Israel makes positive steps to meaningful compromise.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
The alternative is almost too painful to bear
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Waht is it wasn't isareal initating it and us saying nothing?
Debra Smith 200+
http://youtu.be/xEi5ssUImaY
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
The theme I see at Democracy Now's covereage is that the US has not only not restrained but encouraged , supported and lied about the siege on Gaza in efforts to bring about a regime change..to topple Hamas.
Hamas is portrayed there ( and by Palestinian Christians ege Sabeel) as a people's government and contrasted with the fomer corrupt PLO whom Democracy now says we the US want to re instate. ( I'll try to bring those cite's here via edit)
.So back to the original question, if the story as told at Democracy Now is true. the US is part o the problem and must get out of the regime change business..
Debra Smith 200+
Tim Colgan 50+
But although Obama has to operate under the prevailing power structures he does have the desire to find a workable solution to the conflict. And the insight to realize that there are two valid viewpoints.
Debra Smith 200+
"Since that shocking incident of a year ago, the Arab Spring has changed the regional atmosphere, but it has not ended the unlawful blockade of Gaza, or the suffering inflicted on the Gazan population over the four-year period of coerced confinement. Such imprisonment of an occupied people has been punctuated by periodic violence, including the sustained all-out Israeli attack for three weeks at the end of 2008, during which even women, children, and the disabled were not allowed to leave the deadly killing fields of Gaza.
It is an extraordinary narrative of Israeli cruelty and deafening international silence. The silence was broken only by the brave civil society initiatives in recent years that brought both the symbolic relief of empathy and human solidarity, as well as the token amounts of substantive assistance in the form of much needed food and medicine. It is true that the new Egypt has opened the Rafah crossing a few days ago, allowing several hundred Gazans to leave or return to Gaza on a daily basis, but Rafah is not currently equipped to handle goods, and is available only to people, and so the blockade of imports and exports continues in force, and may even be intensified as Israel vents its anger over the Fatah/Hamas unity agreement. "
Richard requested that I provide another voice beside Finkelstein and Chomsky. I think this is a good one.
"
Richard Dawson 30+
"Tales of torture, slavery in Sinai"
"Two women from Eritrea - whose identities are hidden - came separately to Israel seeking a better future.
"I thought things would be much different from Africa," say one of the women. "I got information from people who already arrived before me in Israel that the lifestyle is much better than Eritrea."
What they didn't know was that the men they paid $2,500 to bring them to the Israeli border would repeatedly beat, rape and starve them during their long journey.
"When I left my country I was optimistic and I thought I would reach my final destination, but at the point where I was with the Bedouin in the Sinai, I just gave up everything and said this is the end."
Theirs are not isolated stories. In 2010 alone more than 14,000 African migrants crossed Israel's southern border with Egypt - nearly a 170 percent rise from the year before, according to government figures. And migrant aid organizations say with that surge has come an increase in horrific first-hand accounts of systematic torture, rape, and slavery, across the border, in the Sinai Peninsula."
I wonder why they are fleeing the free, Arab spring paradise of Egypt and coming to that repressive cruel state of Israel?
http://thecnnfreedomproject.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/01/tales-of-torture-slavery-in-sinai/
Debra Smith 200+
If there are atrocities happening, would you want them to stop?
Richard Dawson 30+
What I am offering is evidence. What you are offering is opinions. There is a difference.
Jim Moonan 30+
Tim, I can't argue with your pro-Palestinian statements because I am not well-versed enough and I respect and agree your take on things in almost every instance; but when you say, "When was Canada ever forced to acknowledge the US's right to exist? Or vice versa? Or any country required to acknowledge another country's right to exist?" I think you've got an apples and oranges thing going on. They're just not the same thing. Am I not understanding something?
It's my understanding that both Israelis and Palestinians claim the rights to the same land, right? Israel currently occupies it, I know, But it was the result of the 1947 agreement that gave Israel the rights to the land. They didn't take it - it was given to them. (Minus the territory gained after the 1967 war).
I can imagine it must be painful for the Palestinians to see the land that they feel is theirs occupied by someone else, but the opportunity is here for them to re-claim a significant part of it and to re-establish a formal world identity. Putting what's happened aside and instead thinking "future" is what both parties should be concentrating on - and What Obama's team should be positioning them to do (and others who are genuinely interested in the future of Palestine and Israel).
Yes, the UN has not been an effective conduit for peace in that region. I still think if the right "buttons" are pushed they can play a role in the process. Obama may be the right person to push the right buttons (I'm a dreamer).
And there are other organizations that could help to bring what's needed to the table in order for the two sides to agree. Just don't let the past prevent them from moving into the future.
Debra Smith 200+
These people are living in worse than the Warsaw ghetto and enduring torture that has gone unreported by even Amnesty International because their funding was threatened.It not fair for someone to argue strongly for one side without taking the time to find out the truth.
****Correction: I stated above that Goldstone was Israeli- that is wrong. He is Jewish but from South Africa.
Richard Dawson 30+
Re:the Golstone Report into war crimes committed during the Gaza war.
Operation Cast Lead was launched in response to repeated rocket attacks on Israeli territory by militants in Gaza.
The following are some facts:
1. It was initiated by the 57 member nations of the Organisation of Islamic Conference
Al Jazeera http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/10/20091021112649368100.html
2. The Palestinian Authority asked for the council's vote on the report to be delayed. http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/2011/01/2011126123125167974.html
3. The study's author Goldstone RETRACTED his conclusions on the basis of knowledge not given to him given to him during the time of compiling his report.
He said "civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy" [by the Israelis] and "If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document."
4. Goldstone REAFFIRMED his assessment THAT WAR CRIMES WERE COMMITTED BY HAMAS AS A MATTER OF POLICY DURING THE CONFLICT, as ‘its rockets were purposefully and indiscriminately aimed at civilian targets’.
5. However, he explains that such allegations against Israel were based on lack of evidence, rather than substantiated proof:
‘The allegations of intentionality by Israel were based on the deaths of and injuries to civilians in situations where our fact-finding mission had no evidence on which to draw any other reasonable conclusion…
‘I regret that our fact-finding mission did not have such evidence explaining the circumstances in which we said civilians in Gaza were targeted, because it probably would have influenced our findings about intentionality and war crimes.’
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/goldstone-regrets-report-into-gaza-war
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12949016
6. It is on the basis of this report that many countries want to condemn Israel for war crimes.
Debra Smith 200+
Every year the whole world lines up to sanction Israel and it is only Israel and the USA on the other side (never even your country or mine to join them).
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
It is so much more comfortable isn't it in our former littel cococcoons.
This is tough stuff being put here trying to see and understand the whole pricture
asking for th truth to speak.
t
Debra Smith 200+
I feel that the first two links you supplied are making my case. Who else would initiate and investigation into human rights abuses but the country upon which they were perpetrated?
Quote from your article:
Will the council's adoption of the Goldstone report impact the way Israelis conduct war after hundreds of Palestinian civilians were killed during the war on Gaza?
The Israelis already understood the importance of the impact of this report and that is why you find them leading a very strong campaign to impede the Goldstone report.
You visited Gaza in March 2009 and the OIC pledged $100mn for reconstruction in the wake of the war. What has happened to that money, has it been channelled to Gaza?
The OIC has ensured that 37 per cent of that has been delivered through NGOs, not only in the Muslim world, but from Europe as well. We are really happy to have European NGOs cooperating with us.
A major NGO from Norway donated $21mn worth of medical equipment and facilities.
No, reconstruction is not happening in Gaza because Israel does not allow any reconstruction material to be introduced into the Gaza Strip. So, this is true. We cannot do this, no one can do this. Unless the UN or UNRWA find a way to do this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please supply evidence for the veracity of your statements 3 and 5 .
As to point 4 - what the heck are the Palestinians' fighting with -stones? The embargo is absolute. They can bearly get essentials in past the Israelis.
AS to the so called 'retraction' of the Goldstone report I offer this:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/what-exactly-did-goldstone-retract-from-his-report-on-gaza-1.355454
Debra Smith 200+
According to Goldstone, the McGowan Davis report findings indicate that Israel did not have an explicit policy of causing intentional harm to civilians. This is the "retraction" everyone is rejoicing over.
However, reading the final UN report reveals that the committee didn't come anywhere near that conclusion. On the contrary. The committee states repeatedly that according to the information presented to it, "Israel does not appear to have conducted a general review of doctrine regarding military targets" (i.e. Israel did not discuss at all on which targets it is legitimate to open fire and on which it is not ).
Goldstone's op-ed seems to imply that the committee of experts, as opposed to his commission, was afforded the cooperation of the Israeli authorities. It turns out this is untrue. The American judge was not treated any differently by Israel and she even complains of this in the report. She notes that because of this she had to rely solely on public government reports, which relied on human rights organizations.
She also stresses that the committee did not succeed in ascertaining whether Israel has indeed investigated all 36 of the incidents discussed in the Goldstone report. This, she says, exemplifies the vagueness of the information put at her disposal. And as if this were not enough, the report also points to flaws in a series of investigations concerning civilian deaths, among them women and children.
In the best case, those who are rejoicing over Goldstone's op-ed have not bothered to read the UN reports. In the worst case, they have read the reports and have chosen to keep them out of the public eye. Both UN reports state that despite 36 Israel Defense Forces investigations of the grave incidents mentioned in the Goldstone report, only one indictment has been filed. Moreover, both reports reach the conclusion that "given the seriousness of the allegations, the military investigations thus far appear to have produced very little.
Richard Dawson 30+
My points are
* Operation Cast Lead was launched in response to repeated rocket attacks on Israeli territory by militants in Gaza.
* "civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy" [by the Israelis]
* They were intentionally targeted by Hamas
"point 4 - what the heck are the Palestinians' fighting with -stones?
Not very politely asked.
Besides rifles, automatic weapons, explosives and Anti-Tank Missiles, they have Multiple Rocket Launchers, Short Range Artillery Rockets and Mortars which they were bombarding the Israelis with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_domestic_weapons_production
"The embargo is absolute. They can bearly get essentials in past the Israelis." It is my understanding (I have read) that Israelis were restricting only certain items that could be used for weapons against them. Seeing that they are constantly bombarded - not an unreasonable endeavor.
I never said that Palestinians dont have a raw deal but the fault for that ALSO lies with those of them bent on trying to harm and destroy Israel.
Here is another view of Gaza
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001127.html
Compare those lush markets with the pictures from Darfur and Southern Sudan. Is the OIC sending any aid or protesting about those?
http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=darfur+genocide&hl=en&rlz=1C1CHMY_enNZ358NZ378&biw=707&bih=447&prmd=ivnslb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=HXfpTeOLEZDOvQPrvYnNDw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CA8Q_AUoAQ
This is my last exchange with you on this.
Debra Smith 200+
I offer you evidence of world recognized professors and you offer me what?. Who the heck is Tom Gross?
You really have to stretch your own capacity to close your eyes to facts when you offer me evidence of home made weapons of the Palestinians when I have posted the current evidence that American tax payers are giving $30 billion in weapons to Israel in the next 10 years on top of the billions already provided.
If you and your kids had to face the weapons would you stand in Palestine or in Israel, would you rather dodge Irsael' heat seeking projectiles or the puny hand made rockets of the Palestinians.
Neither are good but to equate them is more than ridiculous!
Richard Dawson 30+
You are offering the opinions of of world recognized professors.
Does it matter who Tom Gross is? Does it matter who posts the pictures?
Did you have a look at the pictures of Gaza? I'm not saying that poverty is not there like anywhere else, but this is not Darfur or Southern Sudan.
"If you and your kids had to face the weapons would you stand in Palestine or in Israel, would you rather dodge Irsael' heat seeking projectiles or the puny hand made rockets of the Palestinians."
What is your purpose in giving those two choices?
Those "puny hand made rockets of the Palestinians" though not accurate kill people where they land. Those "puny hand made rockets of the Palestinians" were being constantly fired into Israel, with the objective to cause maximum civilian damage.
"Between 2001 and January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries, as well as widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
"The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by United Nations, European Union and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch."
There were no corresponding terrorism rockets from Israel.
Debra Smith 200+
The death toll on both sides is indefensible - that is why it has to stop.
My point in giving you the two choices was to shake you out of what I perceive to be too narrow a focus. Would we make the same bold stand if our own children had to face the choices we appear happy to allow the people effected by this discussion to face? I do not think so. At least - I would want someone to shout "FouL" if my kids were facing it.
You give me stats or how many rocket attacks- I challenge you to take a look at how many have died on each side. It is despicable and telling and more than that- it amounts to serious human rights violations that keep happening because we are content to wallow in intellectual positions rather that elevate ourselves to care about human lives.
Palestine is in the right in the International courts. PERIOD. Israel has illegally occupied those lands and terrorized that popluation long enough. If someone occupied New Zealand or Canada I am pretty sure that we would be calling ourselves freedom fighters.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"find a workable solution to the conflict."
The solution is a referendum in Palestine and asking what all people want.
Dear Richard,
Do you know who is the stack holder of Aljazeera?
if you want to make a misslie with tools amiable in your kitchen then how much is the accuracy of that missile?
if a Palestinian make a rocket do you know what is the result?
At night when he sleep is worry to become one of these:
http://addameer.info/?cat=18
Or if be clever and Israeli soldiers can not find him then:
Israeli fighter jets fired several rockets at two Palestinians early on Wednesday as they were riding a motorcycle on the road from Khan Younis to Rafah. One person was killed and another sustained injuries in the aerial attack, Reuters cited a statement released by the Islamic Jihad resistance movement.
The development comes as Israeli warplanes have repeatedly targeted the coastal strip during the recent days.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/172243.html
http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/79692.html
US Apache helicopters are flying above the Palestinians.
Tony Sanchez
It didn't seem to have much influence over the US when they ran, heads down, to punish the "terrorists" all over the Middle-East after September 11.
I'm sure we all remember the Grand-guignolesque speech, at the UN, about WMDs in Irak.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
I am almost ashamed to realize that I have been carrying a rosy totally uniformed idea about the U.N. around since I was a child. Four months ago I would have dismissed what you say out of hand ..and now I see it very differently.
In this matter, the U.N has though spoken and voted many times against Israel , with good cause, and the U.S. has used its veto power and even where the u.S. hasn;t used it's veto power we have just gone on supporting Isreal in whatever supports the interests the U.S. is pursuing..which don't coincide with what the interests of "We the People" might be...
We the people(that would be me..startring with me) can start paying more attention to how the U.S. uses its veto and in this matter "we the people" can let the President & Hillary we are not happy with the US regime strange foreign policy stratgey. We can let Obama know we want Plaestine recognized as a nation..that we want them to choose their own leadership..to continue with Hamas i that us what they choose
Debra Smith 200+
Richard Dawson 30+
1. The Armenian Genocide, Turks massacred 1 million Christian Armenians, many more raped and injured
2. The Assyrian Genocide, Turks massacred 40,000 Christian Assysrians
3. The Greek genocide, Christian Greeks formed over 18% of the population of Turkey, now virtually none
4. The Dersim genocide, Turks massacred about 70,000 non-Turkish people after Turks were resettled in their area to make it more "Turkish"
5. Stalin - about 500,000 Don Cossacks, the Katyn massacre of over 20,000 Polish officers, many others
6. The holocaust - 6 million Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Mentally Handicapped, Poles, Russians murdered by the Nazis,
7. Croatia Ustazi (including Muslim Bosnaiks) under the Nazis killed about 300,000 Serbs, Jews and Romani
8. The Indian Partition - about 1 million Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims killed
After WW2
9. 1,585,000 Germans were killed in Poland and 197,000 were killed in Czechoslovakia in interment camps
10. African slave revolt in Zanzibar 2,000–4,000 Arabs killed
11. Guatemala 1968-1996 - 200,000 people died
12. Bangladesh War of 1971 - 1 - 3 million civilians killed by Pakistan Army
13. Burundi 1972 and 1993
14. Rwanda 1994 - 800,000 people killed
15. Equatorial Guinea - Out of a population of 300,000, an estimated 80,000 killed
16. Cambodia - approximately 1.7 million Cambodians killed between 1975–1979
17. East Timor - upto 200,000 Christians killed by the Indonesian army
18. Sabra-Shatila, Lebanon Christians massacred Palestinians - 700-3500
19. Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Iraq (Kurds, Shias by S Hussain)
20, Srebrenica Serbs massacred 8,372 Muslims
21. Darfur, Sudan -
22. Southern Sudan - Racist and religious massacres Over a million killed, raped enslaved. President of Sudan is indicted
Debra Smith 200+
Richard Dawson 30+
Debra Smith 200+
Debra Smith 200+
http://youtu.be/_6TgL8ruF4M
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
(1) That the US backs and will support Israel in it soccupation of the west bank
(2) that the U.S. will veto any vote to have the U.N. acknolwedge Palestine as a state.
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/23/headlines#1
More proof that our government has actively supported Isreaels transgressions and is not at all seeking separet but equal status for Palastine and is not neutral as to where the borders should be.
Maybe we need to ammend our list to inckude a series of things ou rown givernmnet must do to get out of the way of peace between Palestine and Israel.
Debra Smith 200+
http://youtu.be/nfpVlUESBVc
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"SR - "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's" -Jesus of Nazareth"
Nice saying.
Sayings or prophets are like drugs in a pharmacy. Each drug is for a sick. If you use incorrect drug for a sick possibly die.
Assume a powerful emperor only think to his own benefit and does not serve people end even kill them and people fear to be killed or do not know truth. Then a clever man like you know the truth and wants to help people and make change but does not have any power or soldier. So if he start to protest again emperor then what happens? Simply killed like a mosquito under the foot of a elephant and finish! So the clever man says:
" "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's" -Jesus of Nazareth" and waits for a suitable opportunity.
But when the clever man has min. required power to make change then the "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are God's" -Jesus of Nazareth" is not workable and other drug is suitable.
Jim Moonan 30+
It is wisdom that the world thirsts for... Let's not confuse it with modern medicine.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
does that saying apply to today problem?
"Are the wise words of Muhammad analogous to drugs as well?"
yes, we should first should know a saying is applicable to what condition/time/place then use that application. although most sayings are universal and applicable in any time/place. but not all.
"It is wisdom that the world thirsts for"
it is not the only wise saying. there are other wise sayings seem more wise for today context.
Jim Moonan 30+
With respect, I suggest you try harder to see that this is an important concept towards living peacefully together. Is there a better idea for humankind???
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
politics is built inside the Islam and is mixed withing Islam. its like the stomach in the human body.
lets say a Persian poem (concept):
some one wanted to make tattoo of a lion picture on his back and some one started with ink and needle to make the lion and the man had pain and fear and said:
man: what are you doing?
painter: I am painting the tail of lion.
man: leave the tail. pain the rest.
painter: OK.
and started the rest of body of lion.
man: what are yo doing?
painter: I am painting the head of lion.
man: leave the head. do the rest.
painter: OK.
man: what are you doing?
painter: I am painting mane of lion.
man: leave it.
painter: who has seen a lion without the tail and head and mane ?!!
what you say will not be Islam. it is American Islam and also called "light Islam"
Islam is Islam when it is complete.
there are many many detailed instructions about how to war, how to treat with captives how to walk in war, how to look, and every details of war is defined in Islam.
also please know Islam is based on peace. and if humans be real humans Islam never starts the war.
from near 30 years ago that Islamic revolution started and people kicked out the Shah Iran had only one war and it was imposed to Iran and supported by more than 50 country of world. and I am sure Islamic Iran will never start any war. only defend.
you do not have a correct Image of Islam and see Islam as:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia
Islam is religion of peace. lets distinguish disbeliever emperors made wars in the name of Islam. please distinguish between Islam and Muslim.
war and peace is independent of religion.
what makes war is greed and love of more and more world and material (money, land, power,.. and immediately death) more than need.
please do relate wars to religion.
I hope you have a real Image of Israel Palestine land is not enough for Zionists. they want all the world. even more.
Jim Moonan 30+
No, lets start here: "God is a concept by which we measure our pain" -John Lennon
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"Let's start here: What drug do you need to take so that you can see the atrocity of the Jewish holocaust?"
no need to drug. I already see it. then what you want to say?
"No, lets start here: "God is a concept by which we measure our pain" -John Lennon "
I do not know what kind of God he means.
I know human=body+soul and death is not finish of life an we should a new life after death and satisfying Allah is more important than satisfying people.
can you prove there is nothing after death?
Jim Moonan 30+
ME: "Let's start here: What drug do you need to take so that you can see the atrocity of the Jewish holocaust?"
YOU: "no need to drug. I already see it. then what you want to say?"
ME:You've said repeatedly that you have not made your mind up about the magnitude of the holocaust and in fact if it ever happened the way history books say. Please complete your homework on this all-important subject and get back to the world on your findings. No drugs required - just an open mind.
ME: "No, lets start here: "God is a concept by which we measure our pain" -John Lennon "
YOU: "I do not know what kind of God he means"
ME: Are you saying there is more than one God?
I actually believe that life is eternal - just not going to heaven or hell.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
sorry I had some misunderstanding.
I thought you mean about atrocity happening in Palestine.
but no much difference. both atrocity happening in Palestine and also in holocaust (I do not know it happened or not or if happened in what scale? some say the gas chambers were for cleaning the cloths of workers. it is not easy to find truth about it.
"Please complete your homework on this all-important subject and get back to the world on your findings. No drugs required - just an open mind. "
it needs much research and lets assume it happened bu in small scale.)
I am not historical researcher but I do not believe any thing I hear about holocaust. lets assume it happened but in small scale. then?
"ME: Are you saying there is more than one God? "
no. only one.
"I actually believe that life is eternal - just not going to heaven or hell. "
is there any other place after Judgement day?
show at least one valid religions evidence from any of Abraham religions.
Jim Moonan 30+
ME: The stomach? There are good ideas and there are bad ideas. My opinion is this is a very bad idea!!!! First of all, you've substituted the word "politics" for "state". When I say separation of church/mosque/temple/etc. and state, I mean governance - not "politics". Let politics be soaked in religion for all I care - just be sure that our laws and constitution don't allow any religion to determine what is and is not just for all humans - not just Muslims, christians, jews, etc.
YOU: "What you say will not be Islam. it is American Islam and also called "light Islam"
Islam is Islam when it is complete"
ME: Not "light" Islam - "Enlightened" Islam in my opinion.
Humankind is always advancing, always evolving always learning - Respectfully, I think you really need to consider how to re-interpret your religious beliefs so that they reflect that.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"First of all, you've substituted the word "politics" for "state""
sorry, its my misunderstanding.
also governance is part of Islam. prophet itself was President. please read history of Islam can you find any governor (president of state/country) unless prophet in history of prophet?
Islam has many many detailed instructions for how to govern a country. tons sayings.
please spend some time and read the "'Ali's Instructions to Malik al-Ashtar "
for a sample this is governance in Islam. I strongly recommend to read 'Ali's Instructions to Malik al-Ashtar. if not read it you lose a high valuable knowledge about governance.
'Ali's Instructions to Malik al-Ashtar. they are some instructions
http://www.al-islam.org/anthology/2.htm
this is governance in Shia.
Islam covers all aspects of life. even how to go toilet. how to eat. how to walk. you can not say any aspect oh human life that Islam has no Instruction for it.
"just be sure that our laws and constitution don't allow any religion to determine what is and is not just for all humans - not just Muslims, christians, jews, etc. "
sorry please explain. by "our rules" you mean US laws?
"Humankind is always advancing, always evolving always learning - Respectfully, I think you really need to consider how to re-interpret your religious beliefs "
completely right.
but please note God has absolute knowledge and is not advancing. but humankind is advancing and God sends new updated religion according to advance of human during history.
we always use most updated religion.
God did not send any religion newer than Islam. so this means Islam is the most complete religion and does not need to be more developed.
also Islam has two part: some fixed principals (like formulas) and two some flexible parts that are every day updated according to develops and new needs. (fatwa).
if you can prove Islam has does not cover any need in of human today and needs re-interpret I accept you. show only one case that needing re-interpret
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:3
"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. "
please show only one case that Islam needs re-interpret.
Tony Sanchez
Humankind is always advancing, always evolving always learning - Respectfully, I think you really need to consider how to re-interpret your religious beliefs so that they reflect that."
Regardless of your beliefs, you should refrain from making such comments. Followers of Judaism are far from being "advancing, always evolving always learning". Must you be reminded who's occupying who's land solely based on what their bible says?
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
First I clear Jew is different of Zionist.
"Israeli children are the direct target of Palestinian terrorists acts for many years now"
Palestine is under siege . They can not have medicine, pencil,… how they can have gun and missile? They have no way but making some thing by aviable tools themselves. So their home made missles are not presise and unintentionally kill some childs.
What is your define of terrotrist? Israel is terrorist:
http://addameer.info/?cat=18
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGyS3hc4M8U
I consider attacks of Palestinians kind of defend.
"Israel as a state does not support or represents these opinions "
Yes. Not officially. But seen in their behaviors also seen in deviated Torah and old testimonials.
"this was recoded in the Bible , Historically there was a Jewish kingdom for many hundreds of years in the land f Israel"
Please show your evidence. As I know Jew was not in Palestine land to near 3000 years ago. Only for short time David and Solomon (peace on them) lived there for some decades. God said Jew go to Jurshalim. But did not say that land is yours for ever.
"there is NO mention in the Jewish scriptures of yor fabrication"
"Jeremiah 12- 3: pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, and prepare them for the day of slaughter"
"Jeremiah -51- 20.21.22 Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms;
And with thee will I break in pieces the horse and his rider; and with thee will I break in pieces the chariot and his rider
With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman; and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid"
"Jeremiah – 49 – 28 Arise ye, go up to Kedar, and spoil the men of the east"
And so on.
If they are false please explain me.
Also they are observable in their manners.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"(Iguess all you humanist champions f the Palestinian cause cn jump up now and
prove that this is racism, smehw , miraculously, as you often do, against the Arabs?t"
Please explain this.
Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_3379
"One of the pinciples of Judaism is " light onto the nations" "I respect original Jews. As I said before Zionism is different of Judaism.
"if the Jews had a state of their own most would have been saved"I disagree. the problem is not land. Problem is ideology of Zionism. about Noble prize I agree Jews are most clever people. but I hope it they use their ingenuity to benefit people of world.
Dear Richard,
" Belief in Creationism / disbelief in Evolution is far higher in Muslim countries than western nations."
Evidence? Muslim believe in creation but accept revolution with some corrections needed. Not disbelieve in evolution. Evolution has no conflict with Islam and Muslims accept it and even some say evolution is mentioned in Koran but Muslims believe current generation of human leads to Adam and Eve (near 7000 years ago) and before them some other humans lived and extincted.
http://www.ted.com/conversations/2680/extinction_of_human_being_in_p.html
also you said Muhammad (peace on him) traded slave. please do not say what you do not know about prophets. Muhammad (peace on him) bought many slave but never sold them and made them free. he educated them and gave them food better than his food and use them as help in his works same as himself worked. and many of them did not leave prophet after being free for loving prophet. can you show me one case prophet sold a slave? those slaves educated by prophet became leaders in other countries and scientists and hero ,...
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
"That is not true. The land was bought off Palestinians by the Jews."
How much land they bought? How? Fair or by threat or terror and killing?
This is a sample threat:
http://www.deiryassin.org/
When people see such they fear and sell or leave their home.
Please distinguish between Jew and Zionist.
"The Jews asked the Arabs to stay in Israel "
What you mean?
"but the Arab armies invaded the day after their declaration of independence and they lost.?
Why Arabs invaded?
"1. Settled and developed the land "
This is not accepted. If I settle and develop your land then it is mine? First you should own a land then settle and develop it.
"3 The territory was captured in defensive wars"
defensive war is for defending your own land. How a defending war leads to capturing war? You call it defending?
"That Muslim people do not accept Israel's right to exist is a religious based"
Muslims say killing people and making 70% of people of a country homeless and immigrant is not accepted. I think this is also humanitarian. The Israel itself is not problem. The ideology of Zionism is problem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_3379
"they want to be the bosses and rulers of the world."
I think most nations think so specially US.
"The Jewish people were in Mecca and Medina. There were many Jewish tribes in Medina "
yes. I do not know about Saudi Arabia but Iran has the 3rth largest population of Jews in world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews
Jews has rights like other humans. But do not have right to occupy or kill childs and make people homeless by force and Muslims have the right to defend.
"people died in Sudan. I dont hear you or Muslims or Muslim countries wanting to condemn that. Why is that?"
Are you sure? If you do not hear means not exist? Do you check Muslim medias?
Please check:
www.presstv.com
Do you know what is happening in Bahrain?