This conversation is closed. Start a new conversation
or join one »
Is it possible to upload/download your conscience/memories to/from a computer?
Ed Boyden's talk opens up a lot of possibilities regarding human-computer interfaces with his binary approach. The implications in curing mental illnesses is just a sight of the surface, in my opinion. If we can create an input into the brain, through light signals and their respective light-sensitive proteins, I think it is a matter of time before we can develop very accurate output and recording devices for all these signals.
We can already see the brains outputs and its activity through MRI scanners but, I think, delivering DNA that contains the blueprint for a light emitting protein to the respective neurons ( note that the respective protein might use different frequencies of light for different types of neurons; for better accuracy ) I think we can achieve higher levels of accuracy - I think it is possible to pinpoint an individual neuron firing at a given time. This is just an idea.
Once we can implement both input and output methods I think we can develop algorithms that can decode the information from the brain and store it on the computer. Through such an interface we could access the Internet with our minds, giving a new dimension to our thought.
I wonder, if in the future we could be living inside machines because I really think that what we really are is not limited to our body, but to our genome and, especially, our connectome. I think, for this feat to be achieved, we must fully understand how the brain works so that we can simulate it on a computer and, more importantly, we have to understand how a complex logical and mechanical system like our brain can give rise to consciousness.
I would like to see your guys and gals view on this matter.
Benjamin Chirlin
Benjamin Chirlin
Of course, as the lecturer here states, the virus vectors they're using can only be tuned to manipulate similar groups of cells. Likewise, the light they shine on the neurons is general and not specific. The major challenge will be manipulating small groups, if not individual, neurons using more targeted vectors and lasers (or some other sort of aimed light) to start building a truly one-to-one model of brain activity. Still, the potential leaves me speechless.
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
sorry if I have not read all comments.
I only had a quick review.
I have a question:
where is place of memory?
I think memory is stored in soul and brain is only a terminal for connecting body and soul.
for example our eye see and send it to brain and brain send information to soul for interpreting.
so I think we only can store a copy of our information when information are passed brain to soul using brain waves and ,... . but we can not restore past information using brain. because information are not stored in brain. and we have no access to soul using material tools.
unless we can communicate soul using non-material ways like hypnotherapy/telepathy,...
http://parapsych.org/
Simon Tovey
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
some abilities of human like Intention can not be explained by only corporeal human. what is Intention? and also independence of personality. ie when you think to yourself you find a "me" that is independent and out of corporeal world.
"Or how you suggest it functions and interacts with the brain?"
i suggest it interacts with brain using WATER. water is amazing and I think it is the only material that is both non-corporeal and corporeal.
please have a look:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto
http://www.parapsych.org/articles/36/55/what_is_the_stateoftheevidence.aspx
http://www.parapsych.org/articles/36/54/what_is_the_stateofthetheory.aspx
Pier-Luc Gagnon
S.R. Ahmadi 20+
an computer program does not have Intention.
how a computer program starts running?
a human should press a button. OK? this is intention for a computer. so computer works by Intention of human. also body is like computer. who/what press a button to brain starts thinking and working?
do you think material can have intention?
can a computer program start absolutely independent and without any kind of human intention?
computer does not have a "me" or "I" or "self"
Christophe Cop 500+
though we do need a lot more understanding of the brain, and quite powerful computers and technology to be able to achieve this...
I revel at the thought to be connected to the collective (Like the Borg in Star-trek, but more peaceful)... All the knowledge, all the experiences (& the speed of it!), all the new feelings, sensors, perceptions, dreams, understanding,...
It might mean the end of homo sapiens...
So what should be the next steps of research be?
- neuronal network experiments (in vitro, in vivo and artificial)
- use the 'neuronal light switch' in many experiments, attached to different parts of the brain
- improve scanning technology
- establish a working AI model and run more simulations
- figure out stronger learning algorithms
- find switches for singular neurons.
- develop read-write neuron-connectors
- attach read-write neuron-connection fibers to the hypothalamic entry and exit axons.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Christophe Cop 500+
And in unguarded moments I would be sufficiently overconfident that I admit it ;-)
Thanks for the compliment :-)
Benjamin Goldstein 20+
loop johnny 30+
Also, you have double posted.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
loop johnny 30+
Benjamin Goldstein 20+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Tim Colgan 50+
Consciousness is an emergent property resulting from lifeforms' development of mental processes which originally evolved to enhance survivability.
Broadly speaking, it is awareness. Both of the immediate environment as well as past memories, associations and speculations. Closely related with conscioussnes is subconsciosness which is the mental processing which occurs without awareness, but which may effect conscious thought or even become conscious under the proper conditions.
Consciousness has associated with it a mood as well as the experience of pleasure and pain. These sensations are what motivate the focus of consciousness.
In higher forms it involves the awareness of self as well as the outside world and questions the significance of all.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Tim Colgan 50+
Any elements you would add or subtract from this description of consciousness?
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
loop johnny 30+
I would like to point out that the significance that consciousness generates is different for each mind. You and I can have the same concept in our mind ( let's say the sun ) and we might hold different significance to it( like I may be a sun worshiper and you might be an astrophysicist).
Also, in my mind, consciousness is an abstract and very useful tool we have evolved with. Without it we would, by definition, not think or be self aware. Plants are life forms but they do not posses a consciousness as advanced to the one generated by the human brain.
The real, concrete, tool is the brain and that brain generates the effect that we all benefit from - the mind.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
A.I. and neuroscience is still new to me, but I like what you got to say loop, these are awesome ideas to consider.
By understanding/considering these possibilities now will better prepare our usages of it. Science fiction to me is just future reality, people need to consider what could happen in order to prepare for what will happen.
Technology advances of today:
http://www.utexas.edu/news/2011/05/05/schizophrenia_discern/
http://www.fastcompany.com/1650212/hydra-fuel-cell-hydrogen-solar-power-clean-water-drinking-thirst-famine
http://www.fastcompany.com/1734252/intrapace-abiliti-stomach-pacemaker-to-help-the-obese-stop-overeating
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/04/01/hondas-mind-controlled-robot-could-be-your-avatar-in-the-real-world/comment-page-1/
http://www.magenn.com/
http://www.biopowersystems.com/
We are in the age where all science fiction can become a reality, we just now need people to think in these terms and understand the universal benefits. The biggest being all primary needs being met.
Truly though, I would only want to be uploaded if my body was no longer healthy and would want to be downloaded into another body. No amount of imagination can compare to what really exist in the universe!
loop johnny 30+
I agree with your last paragraph. I would also agree to upload or upgrade myself only if my body was no longer healthy OR if the 'bionic' body is way better than the current body I have.
====================================
Also, question for all of you guys. How do you think we would reproduce in the future IF we would continue to live as cyborgs?
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
We are technically cyborgs right now loop, by me using this computer to talk to you over the internet is making technology an extension of me. The technology is being used under my consciousness it is being used by my will. Sounds cyborg right? Now if you are considering actual metal and flesh cyborgs like Robo-Cop. That would also be sweet, depending on if I was able to have human sense still.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
In my imaginal vision of all this .you would still have whatever was uploaded..it would be just a back up. as of that moment and we could direct its output..direct how it is organized and stored..we could control it ourselves. We could elect what parts of our meory and expereience we want to be able to restore if we suffered a brain injry in which those parts of us were lost.
Did you read Jill Bolte Taylor's k "Stroke of Insight" or see her TED talk? A perfect example . She had to worrk so hard to "find" all she had lost up there in the attic of her stroke injured brain..if she could have had a back up copy of her conscious mind..she could have just plugged it in and restored all that.
In my imaginal version of how this would work the backup would know the exact location of very information element..it could check and see which were damaged or missing and just write that onto new neurons in the correct location if the original source was permanently damaged.
In my imaginal schema would you have any resrvation sabout uploading yourself? What parts of "you" would you would you back up regularly in case they were lost to you by injury or accident?
Tim Colgan 50+
Big question though - how do we integrate the artificial mind into the environment? Providing sensory input is one aspect. But what about the motivational features of life? Perhaps everything is founded on a pain/pleasure principle. Perhaps there are other stimuli to behavior.
What do you think?
Debra Smith 200+
http://neurosciencenews.com/blood-simple-circuitry-cyborgs-memristors/
Tim Colgan 50+
Debra Smith 200+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
loop johnny 30+
For example, instead of judging certain actions as good or bad based on pain and pleasure ( which in the old times were key elements to our survival ) we could judge certain actions based on their outcome ( that we could simulate on a computer in a similar manner our brain simulates through imagination ). We might be motivated on evidence and experience of the consequences of a certain action instead of simple pain / pleasure, which, I think, is not that useful when you are a Cyborg.
The artificial mind concept could take many many different forms. I am not sure if you are familiar with the hive-mind concept ( a whole population of cyborgs that think individually but for the team - like a bee hive ). That is a concept of integration.
I don't think it will be that dramatic in the foreseeing future. I think we may use brain interfaces for simple things in the near future, especially to aid disabled people.
Human - machine hybrids are actually happening, if you consider how many gadgets and devices we 'attach' to our being.
Tim Colgan 50+
OK, if the goal is not to increase pleasure and reduce pain, what will be the positive re-enforcement for a particular type of thought?
loop johnny 30+
I just presumed that if we would be cyborgs -> we would be wired differently -> we would have different signals that come to our main processing unit(s)
Also, the goal ( I think you mean THE goal ) depends on the users point of view. Some people might choose pleasure minus pain as a goal, or knowledge as a goal, or any other.
It is hard to think about it but the 'goal' we think about is still a function of our mind. And the mind is basically the effect of the brain. The brain is wired specifically. So, with some twisted logic, the goals we would be having, if we were cyborg-like beings, will be different and not only a function of our biological brain, but also of our 'second' computational processor.
Too much science-fiction?
Tim Colgan 50+
So you're thinking about this artificial brain as an extension of our real brain. I was thinking a little bit more of our being (as in sentient being) transferring it's residence (or cloning) to the artificial space. But again, to establish this consciousness as a true being-in-the-world our connection to the world would need to be more complete. Otherwise we might just decide to take a nap with no motivation to ever wake up.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
.“We need a science that is contextual, that will look at the way brains are embodied in animals, which are in turn situated in environments with histories and cultures,” Noë says. “It needs to be much more nuanced and indeed more humanistic. It needs to be more like history, or evolutionary biology, than it is like molecular biology."
http://ls.berkeley.edu/?q=arts-ideas/archive/no%C3%AB-takes-novel-philosphical-view-consciousness
I haven't read the whole book,just this link, and don't now his full scope. What he refers to as "consciousness" is closer to what I mean. Not clear that his theory would preclude storage of all the information which consitutes consciousness in the brain..perhaps it would include that possibility. ( I am leaning that way.. Ilike that idea) "
Also possible that what he refers to as history, culture, cultural memory is stored in the memory of our cells..not the memory of our brain. That waht we call inuition, or part of that, may have a biological base, may be recorded as memory within us..but not in our brains. ( some science on that..will look for cites). That kind of memory would also be recordable on the brain since as as we intercat with that in our expereience of life the product of that intercation would be a brain resident memory..one that is dynamic and constantly being updated.
loop johnny 30+
It is true there are other forms of information like history and culture that has been stored on other objects like paper, sculptures, paintings, etc., but all those cultural values have been made through a conscious process of various generations of people. All that info is not stored on our cells but rather it is accessed when needed ( like reading a book and learning about the past ).
It is also true that a lot of information is stored in our genes. Our genes dictate what we will look like and our genes are the ones that ultimately structure the brain so that it would feel emotions like fear, cuteness, etc. ( because those traits had an evolutionary advantage ).
I would like to ask you to clarify your thoughts on the matter of consciousness by answering this questions, please.
What is consciousness, in your opinion?
Where is it located?
-and more-
Hope to hear from you,
Loop.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
loop johnny 30+
For example, we have computers but it is hard to say they are conscious because they are not self-aware or self-sustainable. They are just tools.
Working on your example with the broadcast signal ( comparing it to a neurological signal ), if the radio station shuts off then the radio signal stops too. The brain works the same. If your perception stops there is no other instance where your perceptions can be seen ( so, if the radio station shuts down, you have no place where you can catch that radio ).
Also, in my opinion, feelings and experiences are one and the same with thoughts and they can be used interchangeably.
Good replies here.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
loop johnny 30+
Also, those persons brains are dead, I don't think we can ever and ever talk again to them without appealing to some form of time travel ( to get their brain backs, because they have rotted and all that order has been destroyed ). To 'talk' again to those persons we need their preserved brain to decode it in any way.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
loop johnny 30+
If you continue this process: of hitting the cortex and measuring mental capacity afterwards, you will see that the brain is in close relation to the conscious mind ( which, in fact, is the effect of the brain, as a biological organ ).
If you completely kill the brain or make it unusable that person will have 0 brain activity and the consciousness will stop being produced by it.
I do not agree with the concept of an afterlife ( which I am sure you are referring here ) since it is absurd to think that if you have 0 brain activity you are somehow doing well and talking to your grandma, etc.
If your brain stops working, your perception and your consciousness stops with it. So, we can say, that the brain is the source of consciousness.
( here is the definition of "source" - A place, person, or thing from which something comes or can be obtained )
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
loop johnny 30+
Indeed it is interesting to see how everything is advancing. There are a lot of mysterious concepts that stumped humanity but have been explained and understood ( like evolution - explaining life, gravity - explaining 'the heavens' and so on ).
Consciousness is one of those things that completely fascinates me. I can't wait for a theory of the mind.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
loop johnny 30+
Rule of thumb: never limit your thoughts.
I have a nice quote from Leonardo DaVinci
"Everything you can imagine is real."
Alexandra Elbakyan
Actually, I have the same vision and did dome research to understand how it could be implemented (see these links http://bit.ly/d3siZi, http://bit.ly/e6ngNQ)
Unfortunately, serious research and studies take a lot of time and hence need to be paid for. I tried applying for graduate school at MIT so I could continue my studies, but the competition was very high, and I didn't get through.
Studies that promise some cure for some disease like psychiatric diseases or blindness are much easier to fund of course. (BTW, consciousness-related approach also has potential to be helpful against blindness, but implementation in this case is not as straightforward and primitive as with Dr. Boyden's optogenetics)
Regarding Dr. Boyden's talk, I doubt this approach can be in any way helpful for anything beyond the most primitive things. Forget about consciousness when optogenetics is involved.
loop johnny 30+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
loop johnny 30+
It is interesting, though.
Robin Lutz
I am really scared now and I am really not a conservative or technology-fearing person.
Am I the only one?
loop johnny 30+
I think we, as a specie, have to keep up our responsibility and mentality with the progress of science. An uneducated man with a nuclear bomb at his disposal is something utterly frightening whereas a team of expert physicists don't scare me as much.
We have to take responsibility for our tools.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Zala Klansek
Well, that is just my humble opinion and I apologize for any spelling mistakes.
Debra Smith 200+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
PTSD people were involved in a scientific study of injuries to the pre fronta lobe ..the part of the brain where these moral judgements and empathy and our values reside..Sorry I don't have the citation but my recollection is that the conflict within the brain between values and the acts they were required to commit actually shorted out the pre-frontal cortex..in PTSD..In other words PTSD is a "blow out" resulting from the intolerable conflict between personal values and the acts they were required to witness or commit.
That is the context in which my comment was framed. That this neuron "transplant" or exchnage..could erase the memory of that intolerable conflict and restore the persons previous normal personality.(These boxes are sometimes too small to provide a clear exchange. I apologize if I did not provide a clear context for my comment on PTSD )
Debra Smith 200+
I wonder what the milk of human kindess does?
Debra Smith 200+
loop johnny 30+
Also, catching emotions will be the same as catching any kind of thought for that matter. Emotions don't seem to make sense to a rational mind because they have been hard-wired into us through natural selection. For example, the emotion of fear has been very useful when humans were living in the forest, thus those who had a sense of fear were more likely to survive.
Debra Smith 200+
I am surprised that you believe that hunger and digestion would still be part of the mix. That is a facinating idea.
loop johnny 30+
Batteries eating life forms - Om Nom Nom!
Also, we have evolved to have emotions because they were useful in a natural environment but in a society so complex as ours they can do more harm then good since they are not rational mechanisms. They are just basic instincts that helped use survive in the past. Not so helpful right now when we are changing so rapidly.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
loop johnny 30+
I see you are using a sort of "Field Theory" - an abstract place where our minds live in. That is a concept very largely used with religions and I do not think this is the case. It is true that our brains activity produces different electro-magnetic waves of various frequencies as a result of our electrical activity, but those waves are interfered with the real world and could not be decoded back into thoughts again because they have been "corrupted" by other interferences and because they are too weak.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
loop johnny 30+
I am not sure what the alternative to the computers may be but I am open to new ideas. The future is always uncertain.
Maybe DNA based computers?...
Debra Smith 200+
http://neurosciencenews.com/blood-simple-circuitry-cyborgs-memristors/
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Feliciano Guimarães
loop johnny 30+
lynn eschbach 30+