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Gever Tulley
Montara, CA
United States

Author & Founder, Founder, Tinkering School

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Test Schools, Not Children

Instead of subjecting children to an endless series of tests and grades, we should be testing the schools for how engaged the children are, and how many ah-ha! moments there are in a typical day. In the long-term we should test how durable the learning is (how much 5th grade algebra and trigonometry do you remember?), how much curiosity the graduates retain, and how passionate they are for learning as adults.

Related Talks:

Topics: curiosity education pedagogy

+31

Closing Statement from Gever Tulley

People perceive many issues in education today, and it is clear from our conversation (sometimes heated, sometimes brilliant), that any attempt to address one single issue necessarily leaves many unanswered issues. In general, those well served by a traditional education seem to see little problem with continuing the practice, and those who struggled through school embrace the notion of change - not for the sake of change, but for the chance that we might invent something better.

In seeking to change how we assess children, I started this conversation with the suggestion that we switch the focus of assessment to the schools. To many, this seemed to be a naive approach. A few commenters seemed to be saying, "the system can work, we just need to be more targeted with our testing." Many agreed that there was too much testing, but that some testing can actually be beneficial. Others found merit and suggested ways that it be implemented. Some concern was raised regarding the time it would take to know when a school was failing.

Eric Mercer turned the topic around, asking, "An educational system reflects, not creates, the habits and practices of a society. So which is broken?" My immediate thought is that the best way to fix an ailing society starts with fixing education, which seems to echo the sentiments of many commenters who suggested that schools aren't doing a good job of helping students discover what they truly want to do with their lives. Lee Wilkinson's high school experience seemed to be putting up more roadblocks when it could have been paving the way; "The problem as I see it is; I told them back then that this is what I wanted to do with my life and was told to stop day dreaming."

This has been a fascinating conversation, and I thank everyone for joining in. I am doing my small part to explore new ways to create meaningful education through Tinkering School and my newest project, Brightworks (http://sfbrightworks.org). All my best,
-gever

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Kenneth Knox
- 0
Feb 26 2011: Aren't some of the most important qualities of a good education somewhat difficult to quantify?
For example, finding an area of interest.
I think this depends on the influence of mature role models, sharing their particular passion with students.Could a lack of academic role models leave a student clueless about where they have an aptitude for? I would venture that this is just as important for vocational jobs- though it ought to be noted that students have to find vocational role models outside the classroom.
The reason I suggest this is difficult to quantify is that the paths for a student to follow are already pre-made. If a given student comes to the end of their GCSE's and decides leave education it could be down to either a strong interest in an area that doesn't require A-levels or because of they underperformed in their GCSEs...
clay blasdel
- 0
Feb 26 2011: The question poses a false dichotomy.
Cindy Lou Nelson
- 0
Feb 26 2011: Having worked in an urban school district for 11 years I have come to see that one size does not filt all. Little is done with regard to authentic learning opportunities, teachers are overburdened with "must do" tasks to satisfy state imposed "duties" which dilute a teacher's ability to teach. I see the need for more parent, community education and allowing the teachers to do their job. Teachers also need more training for urban education. They now have little power. The ah-ha's come with the opportunity to think creatively and critically. The ah-has are when children truly learn and the lessons become encoded. Unless the time is given for this... there will be few ah-ha's.
Lee Wilkinson 20+
- +1
Feb 26 2011: Have we also thought about the fact that if we are to change the way in which students are taught and tested then surely we must also change the way that we are accepted into College and University. The system at the moment allows higher education to have a method of of testing student for acceptance (SATs, A Levels and IB) flawed as it is surely that would also need to change. How would we get the higher education system to change it's approach?
Rogier Gregoire
- +1
Feb 26 2011: The many issues that have been raised still leave me with a unanswered question, primarily because the solutions offered seem directed at symptoms of educational failure rather than the cause of public school failure. I would like to suggest that the issue of purpose is avoided. Why and for who's benefit do we educate? I have a purpose for education that does not seem to be on the previous agendas; and here it is:

To promote in students a capacity for critical independent thought with a responsibility for the commonwealth (community). IN other words I would be more concerned with developing a student's ability to learn rather than spending too much time on what to learn. I am interested in promoting cognition as an aspect of social responsibility. I'd like students to develop a capacity for making meaning out of experience in a way that nurtures critical thought.

After reading the preceding comments about schools and who should be measured I felt that schools should be competent at learning as organizations (Peter Senge) because if they couldn't learn as a collective then they couldn't do a very good job of supporting learning in either the students or the staff.

I'd be interested in how these thought coincide or conflict with other views on this subject.

Rogier Gregoire
Bryann Alexandros
- 0
Feb 25 2011: I see two problems: the nature of testing and the actual paradigm of education.

Does memorization of facts and concepts equal brilliance? How do you grade curiosity, passion, or critical thinking? Testing schools is not the solution because the original intent of mainstream education is compliance: being just good enough to keep the gears of society well-oiled and running. Adam Burk previously stated: "the fundamental premise of the system is to create economically viable products." This was the educational archetype supported by major industrialists in the last century who steered and even funded education in this direction.

So, should a test exist, the answers to your questions would be evident.

It goes beyond the ineptitude of one public school, but society's definition of education and its addiction to standardization, and grades as proof of worth. Crude rote memorization and serial testing isn't the way to foster creative wayward minds: that's how you manufacture conformists who are likely to embrace everything at face value rather than innovate, improvise, or invent.

Ken Robinson said: if you fear being wrong, you'll never come up with anything original. He espouses taking risks, a big part of creativity and the entrepreneurial mindset. Not to say everyone is to erect their own business or enterprise, but that the grand wager of taking risks, no matter the context, is a burning part of innovation.The educational system does not nurture individual genius or creativity to even explore this.

Reforming the current system is especially hard in the American political milieu. A real paradigm shift in education is anathema to gatekeepers such as the NEA, teacher's unions, and the educational lobby who are powerful forces and where a lot of money and egos are at stake, and who'd have no qualms in quelling real reform. That, plus it's a cultural obstacle as many still revere the one-size-fits-all public education system as the future for all human advancement.
Donald Thompson
- 0
Feb 25 2011: Are you serious sir? Just how are "we" going to effectively and realistically go about testing any given school on how engaged children are in lieu of tests and grades? Will we charge a group of sullen bureaucrats to prance through the classrooms inviting children to complete some series of nonsense rhymes? Just what kind of government system would you initialize throughout the state of California to determine how many ah-ha moments over 6 million students may or may not be experiencing on any given day. Furthermore, how could you ever track millions of public school alumni to determine if they recall the difference between polynomials and quadratic equations?And why would you want to do that? Never mind the outrageous cost of time and effort and taxpayer's money.
- Gever Tulley 100+
  - +2
  TED Attendee Associate
  
  Feb 26 2011: If an infrastructure can be built to test millions of children, then it seems just as feasible to test a thousand schools. Taken as a goal, the steps and procedures to query alumni would be no more complicated than running a statistically accurate poll.
  
  The point of such an endeavor is to move us away from the known flaws of a grade- and test-based system that has been shown time and again to be both inaccurate and harmful. This idea only appears unrealistic because we're so inculcated in the current testing model that everything else seems strange in comparison. In truth, it might be much cheaper to run, and provide better feedback on what works in education.
Patricia Ortega
- +1
Feb 25 2011: I totally agree!
Mauro Rodrigues
- +1
Feb 25 2011: I'm 20y old and in the 7th grade I wasn´t aproved to the 8th grade, at that time I remember not having "happy" days in school, all I used to do was wrinting stuff that were on the blackboard and no interaction with teachers and all the material besides the black board were like a world map of the 60's and documentaries of the 80's.
The teachers weren't motivated, they didn't like their jobs and that reflects on the students,
At my second year teacher looked at me like I was a lost case and didn't bother about me and I became a part of a group of "lost cases" where teachers don't look to us and only see an F in my brain..

As my case there were a lot, like 20% of the students that weren't aproved each year, all them get lost in drugs, and thinking that they're ideias didn't worth the effort, for example a big friend of mine wanted to be an Geographer and he wasn't aproved 3 times and he droped out, now he is just a guy addicted to cocaine, alcohol and living with sadness and with a "phobia" to schools.

So, if schools should be tested, I guess yes, but first of all we need give the materials that a school needs to work.
Zdenek Smith 100+
- +1
Host Associate

Feb 25 2011: Before even testing schools, teachers or students we should experiment with different approaches to teaching and understand what is valuable to learn and what is not?

I think students need to acquire the following skills and knowledge for life:
- creativity
- communication skills
- team work
- basic facts but not 'trivia' type of information
- concepts in science and math
- ethics and history

So instead of asking students to memorize formulas and facts that can be found at Wikipedia etc, why don't we engage them with local and national competitions in science, math, arts, creativity etc. They will learn great deal of skills needed for their careers as well as learn how to deal with peers.

In addition we should give students more flexibility in what they can learn and how, at their pace while ensuring some basic goals are met at the end of the year. (the founder of Khan Academy organization has some interesting ideas on how to do that)

Facts will become important once students attend apprentice, college or university but by then they will at least develop solid framework of life skills mentioned above.
Gever Tulley 100+
- +1
TED Attendee Associate

Feb 23 2011: I think that we should seek out educational diversity. An educational monoculture exhibits the same weaknesses that a biological monoculture does. If we are to thrive in a world of economic, political, and climatological shifts, we should promote the development of a diversity of education systems. We need a generation of adaptable individuals who exhibit the tenacity necessary to solve big complex problems in a range of career paths that don't even have labels yet, the resilience to work through and around a near infinite list of setbacks, and the creativity to imagine the solutions.

The best way to figure out what works best might be to start trying some different approaches. Summerhill, Sudbury, Waldorf, Montessori, Reggio Emelia - these are great experiments that have been running for decades. The children who graduate from these programs tend to graduate from college at rates equal to or better than the best traditional schools (private and public), and yet those successes are not integrated in classrooms. We need to integrate the best results and continuously innovate, never expecting a single permanent solution in education.
- Dominique deSalle 30+
  - 0
  Feb 23 2011: We must be careful using "students who attend college" as the success measure. This omits around 70% of the entire student population.
  
  Would it be accurate to assume that families who can afford these different approaches can also afford the cost of post-secondary education? Also the success rate for first-generation college students is quite low when compared to second and third-generation students. What this unfortunately points at is the design of an educational experience for an educated few.
  
  Is public education failing us because it cannot screen its students?
  - Gever Tulley 100+
    
    +1
    TED Attendee Associate
    
    Feb 23 2011: I agree Eric, the common use of "getting into college" as a metric is fundamentally flawed. I think it's more interesting (but still flawed) to look at college graduation rates, but we are always going to have an apples-to-oranges problem as long as the cost to attend an alternative school separates students along economic lines.
    
    Our new school (http://sfbrightworks.org) uses a sliding scale tuition and deliberate outreach to make it accessible to low-income students, but we find that the social barrier is even more difficult to cross than the economic one. We find ourselves having to work constantly to overcome the perception that an alternative education is not a "real" education.
    
    Measuring success is always going to be tricky when the pedagogy does not allow testing the students. We need to look longer-term and look at broader definitions of success. An oft-quoted study of the alumni of the original Sudbury Valley school, revealed a consistently happy and successful group of graduates (http://bit.ly/eZKOGt). Summarizing the study, one reporter said:
    "The Sudbury Valley School recently completed an extensive study of former students that provides qualitative and quantitative evidence of the success of the model. Graduates tend to see themselves as creative individuals who feel successful and happy about their lives. They pursue a full spectrum of diverse careers and interests; 45 percent of those surveyed were self employed or owned small businesses; 82 percent of graduates go on to higher education. In addition, colleges and employers view a Sudbury-style education as an asset and a predictor of success."
    - Dominique deSalle 30+
      
      0
      
      Feb 23 2011: A good reply, thank you. Appreciate the links.
Nick Devereux
- +1
Feb 20 2011: In my opinion the US educational system is broken and no amount of "testing" is going to fix it. There are many interesting observations threaded here and some serious misconceptions too!

Here's my top 5 must do's.

1. Require teachers to sit in on each others classes - See Kris Nordgren's & Jeffrey Allen's comments
2. Do away with expensive textbooks - See Cecile Mills.
3. Continuing to teach the 3 R's - See Aaron Weisman.
4. Emphasize learning facts and concepts. - See Steve Nelson & Aaron Weisman.
5. Testing students on the facts & concepts - See Chris Casal.

Here's what I think are common misconceptions

1. Let the kids assess the teachers - nonsense. Kids are not qualified to assess teachers!
2. Students know what they are interested in - nonsense. The whole purpose of education is to broaden their interests.
3. Don't teach facts, that's what computers are for - ridiculous. Education is about learning the facts. Not to memorize them but to know where to find them later and knowing what to do with them after you have found them.

Here's what I think are the main problems with the current educational system.

1. Kids are taking way too many classes/credits. They are "drinking from a firehose". A 5 month semester is not enough time for kids to synthesize and master all the new material nor identify common themes among classes/subjects.

2. The testing regimen is ridiculous. I have kids taking mid-term exams in several subjects about once every 4 weeks. Again, not allowing enough time for the students to synthesize the material. They study to cram for the exam, not to learn the material - See Gever Tully.

3. Retention & firing of faculty depends too much on the "student opinion of instruction" surveys. They are student opinions that's all, they are not teacher evaluations nor should they be used as such - see Matthew Fisher.

4. The high cost of 4 year college education.

5. The low value society places on education.

The solution - Test kids once a year!
- Scott W 20+
  - +1
  Feb 22 2011: "2. Students know what they are interested in - nonsense. The whole purpose of education is to broaden their interests."
  
  Is that how our school system turns avid readers into people who absolutely refuse to pick up a book?
  
  There is a very critical difference between introducing new ideas to a student and overriding the fledgling interests already present in the student. Our modern education has shown no ability to even understand the potential damage it can actually cause.
  
  "3. Don't teach facts, that's what computers are for - ridiculous. Education is about learning the facts. Not to memorize them but to know where to find them later and knowing what to do with them after you have found them."
  
  This point is so vague that it contradicts itself. Surely you're not intentionally suggesting that education is about learning the intricacies of quantum mechanics so that if you forget your can look it up on Google later in life.
  
  Largely the only fundamentals which I can see a reason that they must be taught are simply fundamentals of communication and critical thinking. If a student is able to form and communicate ideas effectively as well as understand outside ideas and analyze them then what other skill could possibly be necessary for someone to teach themselves anything they could need in the future?
William Peterson
- +3
Feb 20 2011: Over the past two years I have realized my children's most important school years were 1-5. They developed a worthwhile base for Middle School, High School and College while there. It was a good school, and I was happy with it. Perhaps they were doing more that would have given them a 'good grade'. I certainly wouldn't have given some Middle School and High School teachers a decent grade - but my children were able to move through the teachers silliness. It was because of that elementary school grounding.
- Eileen Grundstrom
  - 0
  Feb 22 2011: I like this comment
- anthony bruni 30+
  - +1
  Feb 22 2011: Well said William. It amazes me that our culture only sees early education as a means to higher education. This is why we have a crisis in education. If you adopt a pet you don't wait till it is fully matured to train but keep it in a day care hoping that if it is behaved enough that it will have a chance to be taught by a more renowned teacher when it is older. Yet this is our educational model. Children are inquisitive creatures by nature, full of curiosity, but after a couple of years starring at a blackboard (Maybe an I pad if your school is tech savvy) and what have they learned. Not to talk to peers, how to tell what information will be tested, and how to disregard the rest, that after 45 min of studding something it is time to stop and do something new. The sad part is a great education would be affordable. A simple garden can be a multi- grade lab where one class is learning about how provide basic care for plants while the higher ups can be studding soil composition. Instead of spending money for state of the art computers where children learn "programs", the modern equivalent of secretarial skills, take in donated computers that need work. Teach them how to reprogram them so they work. A few years of this at an impressionable age and we will have a population that will be able to tach itself and each other.
Lee Wilkinson 20+
- +1
Feb 20 2011: I loved school and by all accounts I was a pretty mediocre student, I am sure mainly because of the old industrial model of education in 1960s Great Britain. Fairly late on in my life I became an actor. I trained at a conservatory and later had the opportunity to study at RADA. I now also have a Masters from Kings, London and RADA. The point of this is that my love of learning and my ability to learn came together when I was 38. I heave learned and retained more about the world, maths, English, Physics and people skills since becoming and actor and a writer my two true passions than I did in school. The problem as I see it is I told them back then that this is what I wanted to do with my life and was told to sop day dreaming. So many people are like this and while academic study is wonderful for those who can work that way the avenue into education is not the same for all. Testing is really the proof that the system does not work and not the child.
Dominique deSalle 30+
- +1
Feb 20 2011: The purpose of education is at the core of this discussion. Some suggest testing schools for relevance to one's ideal of life fulfillment is purposeful. Others believe success in ventures beyond and after the classroom is a good measure. Or whether someone retains information and skills in life (say, trigonometry) when perhaps they have gone on to positions that require minimal use or application of these skills.

It is a commonly held belief that a small percentage of humans control and consume the lion's share of world energy and resources. Do we feel that this is something we should all strive for - to grab our fair share before it runs out? We have but one life to live and it better meet all our expectations and desires of comfort and consumption even if it causes others to suffer shortages? Is greed, self-service and self-fulfillment at all costs driving this discussion to restructure education? An educational system reflects, not creates, the habits and practices of a society. So which is broken?

If it is guaranteed that our privileged level of consumption, leisure and exciting travel opportunities is sustainable then sure let's further build upon educating for the purpose of sole self-interest as the goal. If not, maybe some adaptation on our part to fair, reasonable, world sustainable outcomes might be in order.

We can't reach our true potential caring about others? Does an education system have to meet all our individual wants? You can't always get what you want but you just might get what you need (Jagger, 16,17 November, 1968).
- Drew Bixby
  - +1
  Feb 25 2011: I echo the comment "The purpose of education is at the core of this discussion." We should be discussing that first and foremost. Before we discuss how we are going to do and what tools and whether to use textbooks, we need to decide on the goal more than just "educating people". What is that goal?
  - Dominique deSalle 30+
    
    +1
    Feb 25 2011: My career, such as it was, was spent doing two fundamental things: researching, promoting and implementing new learning opportunities and researching, analyzing and questioning educational fads that promise but never deliver.
    
    Telling the difference between the two is not a simple task, and a task that was not always done correctly. The fallout comes at a heavy price for the student.
    
    Presently the buzz in education is early-learning. I believe that this holds merit however it is being promoted as a near 'cure-all' - for which it crosses, in my opinion, into the second category of promises without chance of delivery.
    
    There are a number of what I refer to as 'key-stones' in education and neglecting any in hopes that any one will bring the success we so desperately desire will lead to another disappointment. One disappointment that comes to mind is our failure to continue to address the learning needs of males.
Jeffrey Allen
- +1
Feb 19 2011: Broadly speaking, I think the goals of educations should be (1) to help young people choose a life path that gives them the most satisfaction, and (2) teach them the human and practical skills they need to excel at that path.

I'm 33, Ivy-League-educated, and in a stable job that challenges me, enables me to travel and interact with great people, and develop new ideas to use emerging technologies to improve lives. I've also been a teacher and a journalist, and lived in the U.S., Africa, and Europe. By almost all definitions I have "succeeded." I'm happy, yes. But I also feel like I haven't discovered my true passion—a fulfilling life path. I look back at my standard, U.S. public-school education and don't recall being taught to think about what makes me happy and why.

I think if our goal is to help young people grow into emotionally fulfilled adults (which are surprisingly rare in today's world) we have to do more to help young people learn to be introspective—to identify what makes them happy in life—and then give them the tools to go after those things.

I'll leave it to the education experts to say what such a system might look like, but here are some of the insights that struck me from this conversation:
- Pay teachers much more (to attract the best talent) and then require them to sit in each other's classes, both to learn from colleagues' approaches and to evaluate each other.
- Group learners by interest/learning style (rather than by age) and with teachers passionate about that interest.
- Find ways to individualize instruction more, by increasing money in the system to decrease class size, but also by pulling more of society into the role of teacher. Young people could spend more time learning from professionals, and more class activities can be guided automatically (computers, virtual reality).
- We don't need to learn to recall most facts anymore (thanks, Google!). Since our educational needs have changed so much, it's a great time to rethink the system
Aaron Wiseman
- 0
Feb 19 2011: While it is an interesting concept and I think Mr. Tulley was conceptualizing something a bit more abstract when he stated the question the fact remains that when you test the students of the school you are, in essence, testing the school. The question I keep hearing from parents when I talk about schooling is always "What are they teaching them at that school?" with the implication that the students of said school aren't learning anything. While I will admit that we, as Americans, are in a crisis when it comes to education, but we still produce some of the smartest people on the planet as an end result. Regarding K-12 education, which I believe is the main topic of discussion here, we need to focus on a couple of things first.

Number one being the high dropout rate, while we need people to work in fast food and other unskilled labor jobs, a close to 50% dropout rate is unacceptable by any standards. I believe that the reason for the high dropout rate is the common belief that if you want to be anything other than an unskilled laborer you have to go to a 4 year college, which is not the case; in fact 4 year degrees are becoming so common that most people that I know with a 4 year degree aren't even working in their field of study, it was just another "piece of paper" for the HR department.

Number two is focusing on fundamentals first then moving into specialization. The fact of the matter is that the old "reading, writing, rhythmatic" still needs to be taught to students, as boring as it may be these subjects may be they are the foundation for all future learning. The methods of teaching these subjects may differ among students but just because every student doesn't have an "ah-ha" revelation moment doesn't mean they aren't learning, and just because you don't remember your 5th grade algebra doesn't mean the education system failed you. While smarter testing systems will probably help gauge comprehension, we do need some conformity in our testing methods.
G. Alex Ambrose
- 0
Feb 19 2011: I am curious and excited about how?
Chris Casal
- 0
Feb 18 2011: I think you need to test both schools and students. The key is testing efficiently and effectively.

A test, when developed, administered, and analysed correctly, is a great way to judge process and product.

Testing is a good indicator of what is being taught and learned. How can you test schools without testing the students to see how the schools are doing?

It shouldn't be about "no testing" it should be about "efficient and effective testing, with proper use of the resulting data"
- Michał Wolski
  - 0
  Feb 19 2011: I have an idea that may be relevant: what if we regard tests as tools that children can use by themselves?
  
  Imagine that kids can take the test at any time they want and receive some sort of a certificate that they passed. Isn't that a better solution than deploying obligatory exams on them?
- Gever Tulley 100+
  - +2
  TED Attendee Associate
  
  Feb 19 2011: I think it's pretty clear that testing does not accurately indicate what is being learned - the time frame is too short. Classroom observations show that high school and college students have learned how to effectively cram information necessary to pass a given test, but when spontaneously asked the exact same questions from the same test just days later in a classroom, they have no effective memory of either the question or the answer.
  
  We wouldn't need to test if the results of learning were self-obvious. Schools should put students in a context where their behavior and efforts produce outputs which a effective demonstrations of their understanding of a topic. The notion of a "test" is merely a convenience for the teaching organization, and offers no benefit to the student in the long run.
Robert-David Steele-Vivas
- +3
Feb 18 2011: This is industrial-era perspective. Don't test at all. I am still enthralled with TED SpeakerSugata Mitra's presentation.

TED: Sugata Mitra–The child-driven education
http://www.phibetaiota.net/2010/09/ted-sugata-mitra-the-child-driven-education/

FACT: The five billion poor are never going to sit in a school for 18 years.

FACT: Human brains (five billion poor especially) are the one inexhaustible resource we have with which to create infinite wealth.

BELIEF: Connecting the five billion poor to the Internet in a manner that cannot be corrupted (e.g. Google showing you what someone else has paid to put in front of you) or shut down (e.g. Egypt) is the single most effective thing we can do to "educate" the world. Solar-powered Internet meshes across every parish, satellite access from every diocese.

REFERENCES: These books in particular have inspired me:

Review: The World Is Open–How Web Technology Is Revolutionizing Education
http://www.phibetaiota.net/2010/08/review-the-world-is-open-how-web-technology-is-revolutionizing-education/

Review: Making Learning Whole–How Seven Principles of Teaching can Transform Education
http://www.phibetaiota.net/2010/08/review-making-learning-whole-how-seven-principles-of-teaching-can-transform-education/

Review: Don’t Bother Me Mom–I’m Learning!
http://www.phibetaiota.net/2007/04/dont-bother-me-mom-im-learning/

Review: Digital Natives & Digital Immigrants
http://www.phibetaiota.net/2008/05/digital-natives-digital-immigrants/

Review: Everything Is Miscellaneous–The Power of the New Digital Disorder
http://www.phibetaiota.net/2009/07/everything-is-miscellaneous-the-power-of-the-new-digital-disorder/

Review: Ideas and Integrities–A Spontaneous Autobiographical Disclosure
http://www.phibetaiota.net/2010/11/review-ideas-and-integrities-a-spontaneous-autobiographical-disclosure/

OPINION: Neither government nor testing have a place in the far future of Panarchic Collective Intelligence. Open Source Tri-Fecta is the key.
John Switzer 50+
- +1
TED Attendee Associate TED Live member

Feb 18 2011: I've been thinking about four interrelated things regarding 21st century teaching and learning:

creativity - to what extent do we unlock the treasures within each of us?
citizenship - what does it mean to be a local, national, and international citizen?
connectivity - how do we relate to each other in a twitter/facebook world?
compassion - how do we deeply engage with our communities to bring about meaningful change?

... the challenge is how to measure these attibutes? As Patrick indicates, if the drivers of tertiary entrance continue to be standardized admission tests, then there is little stimulus for the system to be changed in the education world.
Patrick Newell 500+
- +1
TED Attendee TEDx Organizer

Feb 18 2011: Great dialog so far... Enjoyed reading the various thoughts. This is one of my core areas of passion www.21foundation.com :-) and could write for days about this... Top 3 thoughts

Change the standards by which the top Universities accept students
Design accreditation standards to align with 21st Century Skills so the schools are evaluated based on these skills.
Reward learners and educators for embracing inquiry-based learning
Adam Burk 500+
- +2
TED Attendee TEDx Organizer Associate

Feb 18 2011: Has CORE been mentioned yet? I didn't see it as I rescanned the conversation here. CORE is designed to be a more holisitic assessment that provides 360 degrees of feedback, from students, parents and educators. From the website:

"The Idea:
The CORE (Creativity, Openness, Resourcefulness, and Engagement) test is an alternative assessment that flips standardized testing on its head. Right now students are required to take top-down standardized tests that measure only left-brain skills. In contrast, the CORE test will work from the ground up, inviting students to evaluate how well their school is providing a creative, engaging learning environment. Parents and teachers will be encouraged to take the test as well; it will be customized according to its audience.

The CORE test will:

provide the first set of standards for schools to develop right-brain abilities in students
allow students, parents, and teachers to critique their schools on creativity using a public platform
be widely appealing and easy to use."

Check it out: http://rightbrainsare.us/ideas/core-students-parents-and-educators-score-the-schools-on-creativity/
- malcolm bellamy 10+
  - 0
  Feb 19 2011: Thanks for the information about CORE I shall be looking this up. I think the new TED Conversastions are such a useful means to pass on great ideas and developments such as CORE. Thank you.
- Matthew Fisher
  - 0
  Feb 19 2011: As a teacher, I am concerned about how subjectively teachers are evaluated already. I think making it more subjective. Unfortunately, teacher evaluations, as well as opinions I hear from students and parents about teachers, essentially make teacher evaluation (on or off the record) a popularity contest. Opinions differ greatly on methods and what is rewarded one day is punished the next. I think the solution is a more set method of delivering what students need that is put into place nationally. This would have to include recommended methods and engaging materials for various content. Right now, teaching is like an independent quest for each and every teacher, rather than a body of professionals using the methods that research shows are the best for students.
  
  By the way, schools are evaluated where I am from by boards of educational professionals who visit various schools and look at the atmosphere and the quality of education taking place there.
  - Adam Burk 500+
    
    0
    TED Attendee TEDx Organizer Associate
    
    Feb 19 2011: Matthew,
    
    This is a great perspective. I understand that this issue of subjectivity and bowing to the pressures of being popular are what thwarts the integrity of some college level courses as some professors seek the positive praise of student evaluations at the end of the course.
    
    The danger I hear in what you are saying is that its logical course leads to standardization. "Well if we can't rely on subjective feedback, we need objective standards by which we base our evaluation." This is the argument right? And this is what you are advocating for, correct? This is what is happening with common core standards, a national framework of standards for use in all public schools. I've argued about the virtues and liabilities of this system at www.coopcatlyst.org with other educators from across the United States, Canada, Europe, and Australia.
    
    It also sounds like you work at a private school, where accreditation teams come to visit is this the case? I have been a part of this at both a private k-12 school and a college. It's an interesting process that requires a lot of work. I am not sure that all the work is worth it.
    
    As for "acting like a body of professionals using methods that research shows are the best for students" there is no research that shows what is best for all students. There may be certain baselines like providing basic physiological comforts--warmth, food, water, physical activity--for students, but after that there is nothing I have seen that is clear cut. There are a myriad of methods that are equal but different, and it takes the mastery of a teacher to understand what method to use when. I've seen scripted classrooms (an extreme of what you propose) and they do not work to create rigor, only mediocrity and complicity of thought.
    
    I hope we can continue this conversation.
Mark Gump
- +1
Feb 18 2011: This discussion reminds me of the question that usually comes to me when the subject of testing students is discussed. That is why nobody seems to ever realize that we are wasting vast sums of money and time when we test every student in a school to try to assess how the school is performing. It never ceases to amaze me how we can fully accept the results of marketing or political surveys that are typically based on the responses of a small number of people that represent a fraction of the full number of people impacted by a question, yet we think we need to test 100% of the students. We are more than willing to accept the results of a questionnaire that 200 or 1,000 people answer and apply it to millions of people. Apparently most polls, surveys and questionnaires have very small margin of errors even though they may be based on a small fraction of 1% of the total population that is affected. Why in the world do we insist on testing 100% of the students in a school. Let's test something like 5% and let the other 95% or so of the students use the time more effectively to learn more.
- Mariahn Scarborough 20+
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  Feb 23 2011: We talk about expensive books, but the expense of all this testing on school districts and governments is positively staggering. Millions are made on test creation and many more are made to employ and train people to do the assessments. It is my opinion that tests are not properly vetted,nor is the job of choosing which companies are engaged in the development of these tests given to educators. The job usually goes to the lowest bidder, but the company doesn't have to stick to the budget and they know that the gravy train will continue for a decade of of fees for updates and assessment training.
  
  The situation is already unsustainable in my state - to much testing and not enough learning time.

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