chad manderscheid

Entrepeneur, sentient beings

This conversation is closed.

Can we now ban brutal and abusive porn that demeans women by way of a class action suit to file for damages to women and society in general

Since virtually everyone agrees with Child porn and snuff films being illegal and these are fairly successfully being interdicted then why shouldn't the A.C.L.U. and the religious right now work together, with support from the majority of the rest of us, to stop the victimization of "18" year old women and the generation of young men who are addicted to ever grosser fixes of porn on the internet. If we can justify requiring healthy foods for the body and safer vehicles on the roads and fairer practices from banks why not stop the exploitation of our youth for profit.Yes many sites require that the person entering a site declare that they are 18. So? Any 16 yr old who is so honest that that protects them probably does not need protection. I do not know of an age, in any case, at which accustoming oneself to watching gang bangs is guaranteed to be harmless, do you? We make it difficult for minors to buy cigarettes because they are addicting and bad for your health and put strong warnings on the packages for the adults. Is there really any question that porn tends to addict and that porn that exploits women and sends the justifying message to rapists that all women really like it rough and no means yes, as the Ivy League frat boys recently chanted, is damaging to us all? I hope that brain science and psychology have advanced far enough to be able to give convincing evidence in court and start curbing the casual acceptance of treating women as objects with no right to object to anything.

Closing Statement from chad manderscheid

This has been a challenging exercise and I must admit I have apparently failed to convey my proposal to discourage abusive porn clearly enough. For some any form of porn is degrading and trying to clearly delineate boundaries rapidly becomes a sticky tar pit I get the impression that while many people have an opinion few have thought about the many facets of the topic in depth. Perhaps this is partly because porn as free speech is both controversial and repulsive to many of us. This makes it unusually difficult to convey more than small bits of the whole elephant-like concept. I had hoped to discuss dimensions that involve much more than cultural-religious mores, which I would as soon avoid as they are are basically opinion based and do not tend to lead to any agreement. Recent research for instance into advertising psychology or the self programing plasticity of the brain or observable human behaviors would have been enough to make for an interesting discussion. My reasoning was not that degrading porn absolutely tends to create more dangerous deviants, although this may be somewhat true, my point is that I believe it has already negatively affected the general attitudes of society to women and human relations in general and that this trend is not healthy. Racism and gender bigotry and hate speech are discouraged at least in public. Why is it so difficult to see that dehumanizing porn belongs in the same category of harmful expression. Myrthe Hilkens, a Dutch author, recently published "McSex" about the pornification of society. She makes a cogent case but most people can't read Dutch. I am reminded of the reaction when the Freud first published his theory that most neuroses in women were caused by sexual abuse when they were very young. The firestorm of official Victorian denial caused him to back down and restate his thesis to say that women imagined that they had been abused. Now we seem to admit that abuse is rampant but our attitude is "So What"

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    May 17 2011: hmmmmm let's see here 28 of 32 comments here by suggesting the link between porn and crimes of violence aganst woman and children is a memeI'm only know..( Just teasing) ..,pornography is as old as is on the walls in's everywhere and for all time those who have no discipline and self control when aroused by such images have committed crimes of violence against women against children. Would it stop with stronger laws? It would just be harder and more costly to obtain.Those who are deviant would still be .The intervention I think is not laws banning porn but trying to indentity and treat these deviants in the population. I understand that the recidivism rate of rapists and child predators is very very high. I have wondered if it is brain chemistry perhaps as associated with damage or mis wiring of the pre frontal cortex or the kind damage to the brain associated with fetal alcohol syndrome.Banning porn would not prevent the deviations that result in sexual predation. I don't have the statistics handy but I remember being astonished at what a high percentage of people report one or more instance of sexual exploitation in childhood or report rape usually in the form of excesses in a social setting but also very high rates fro some kind of stranger encounter sexual offense ( flasing, peeping toms, iannpropraite physical contact in a public setting,,ege a crowded train). These people are dangers and cause irreparable harm to many people over the course of their lives . Cures are not promising..not even castration works.,We have to get them off the streets
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      May 18 2011: Lindsay thank you for your input. I can not disagree with you on any point, however what I am focusing on here is the current acceptance of High definition actual recordings of (usually) women being exploited and brutalized in ways that I feel have created a social environment that hurts everybody in the end. Yes erotic pottery is thousands of years old and salacious limericks and literature predate modern English. I believe however that the internet has created a much more powerfully addicting drug that is pervasive with its perverse influence. Yes it has not made all males into misogynistic curs. But although I am only 57 it seems to me that the proportion has increased in the last twenty years of my life and attitudes although not perfect before have gotten worse. . If Ken Robinson is correct and the average eighteen year old male has watched ten or even five thousand hours of porn much of it extreme stuff this seems the most obvious explanation. My own theory is that vicarious abstract sexual practice( those without a living partner) rapidly tend to desensitize the natural reactions of men so that like heroin you must take stronger fixes to get the same level of arousal. As a counselor I have observed not a few young men who started with relatively innocuous porn and rapidly descended into hard stuff with an ever increasing tinge of dominance and then violence and sometimes bestiality and yes I would blame this influence partially for some of the increase in divorce. I know personally of cases where men have demanded that their wives undergo augmentation so that they can better perform in bed. The majority of western men now seem to be sold on the idea that the visual qualities of their partner determine their ability to perform in bed. This is nonsense and damaging to our culture. Donald Trump ethic states that he who dies with the most toys wins. And by his trading in for new models periodically it seems his" partners" are just another toy to him.
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        May 18 2011: You know..because of the controls I have onmy computer through my ISP and through my security filters I haven't been exposed to the porn corner of the internet. I understand your points and share your concerns, especially for children. With respect to children,are you saying that parental controls now available are not effective or can be easily circumvented? Are there no rating systems in place which support parental controls.

        As for adults, how is this different from the age old free speech v porn ? What has the internet added to the equation that has not been considered before?

        And in any event, even accepting what you says is true, I am not one to solve social problems via law if there are other more appropriate interventions.

        Sexual addiction is a recognized mental illness that knows no borders and no boundaries. So we deal with that as dealt with drug addictions..through prohibition? I guess I would like to see us owning up more to the pervasiveness of sexual addiction in our culture, trying to discern why it is so prevalent what part of the brain is involved in we have anything to offer those alreadyy adddicted through the easy availability of this stuff through the internet? If we could shut this stff of overnight what are we left with..what do we do with the millions and millions of sex addicts at large in th epopukation? What risj does that represent?
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    May 15 2011: To all the gentlemen here who worry about the effects of pornography on women, I say thank you - you inspire me that there are men who care about our well being.
    My fear is that the profit motive is more powerful than your love and care.
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      May 16 2011: Debra unfortunately your fear is proven to be reality by at least a plurality of the old boy network
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      May 16 2011: Yes agree with you Chad! But i am again going to be very clear on the traces of Legalization of prostitution and Women discrimination!!
      If one considers for a moment the irregularities, excesses, and exposures to which they are subjected, he cannot doubt this. Many of the women involving in prostitution are constantly diseased with venereal maladies; they often drink to intoxication; they are exposed to inclement weather with insufficient clothing; they are frequently injured in brutal brothel fights; they are neglected when sick. Their chance of life must necessarily be greatly lessened.

      But this, though serious enough, is by no means the worst effect. It is the almost hopeless moral death of the prostitute which is the darkest result of her mode of life. The woman who once loses her virtue can never recover her self respect; but she, who for money has prostituted her body as a trade, seems to lose hold of all moral principle, and even natural affection. She consorts by necessity and preference with thieves, gamblers, and the vilest classes of men. She rarely makes the effort to rid herself from the jaws of death, even when assistance is offered. The ancient heathen wrote over the doors of brothels: Hic habitat voluptas, Here pleasure dwelleth; but the Christian knows that a far truer inscription were that which Dante says is written over the gates of hell: -

      "Leave every hope, ye who enter here."

      It is this utter demoralization which invests with such difficulty every attempt to redeem these creatures. And we must look it squarely in the face in all our schemes for reform.
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    May 15 2011: I don't think you are making a very cogent case because you are mixing up bunch of unrelated ideas.

    For instance, people do agree in general about prohibiting child pornography because people generally agree that children are not qualified to make important decisions and are not mature enough to understand sexuality. As I understand it, that is the reason for all sorts of regulations where minors are concerned. Are you prepared to say that an adult woman does not have the mental capacity to make her own decision? If not, then you need a different reason for taking away her choices about the way she leads her life and makes her living. What are those?
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      May 16 2011: Mark I do not wish to take away any woman's rights. I wish to inhibit the portrayal of abusive behavior on the internet that can lead to an acceptance of such behavior as normal. Again my focus is on violent and degrading porn. Anyone who can only be aroused by watching gang bangs or depictions of rape or other types of brutality and abuse is at least a potential risk to society. Why feed it? Child porn is not restricted just to protect those filmed. It is also, I am sure, restricted to stop feeding the addictions of more people who would then represent a danger to other children. The paramount issue is not whether a child understands sexuality it is that they are vulnerable and relatively powerless in interaction with full sized human beings. If sex education could be more comprehensive for prepubescents do you think that would make it all right? If any truly adult woman wants to be a porn "actress" as her first preference, fine. Does it have to be degrading porn? More to my point do we have to allow its promotion on the internet? Often the purveyors choose undeveloped baby faced 18 year olds so they are "legal" Does that make you feel better? Not me. The Issue is that we have allowed the creation of a threatening and hostile environment that affects all women. And yes women tend, like children, to be relatively powerless. I don't want that for my daughter or for any woman and I don't think it is good for the gander either.
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        May 16 2011: I really am trying hard to understand your point of view with an open mind, but again, you are mixing up so many ideas that it's hard to get to the root of your argument.

        For instance, in the one paragraph above you provide several ideas that make these unsupported assumptions:

        1. Depictions of aberrant behavior will lead to that behavior becoming an accepted norm.
        2. There is a correlation between what arouses people and the risk they present to society.
        3. Degrading and un-degrading porn are defined well enough that we can legislate against one without affecting the other.
        4. Women are relatively powerless.

        I don't think you've made a real case for any of these assumptions.

        Take the first one as an example. If it is acceptable to limit depictions of undesirable behavior because you believe that this will lead to that behavior becoming the norm, why stop at internet porn? The first thing you should ban is Shakespeare's Othello—he's a wife beater—he kills her in fact. You should also ban any movie with violence and movies where people drive recklessly. (I'm amazed that I can still safely drive to work after seeing Fast Five.) And why stop there, ban movies where people rob banks and have affairs. But we don't do any of that because for most of us no matter how many times we see "The Thomas Crown Affair" we're not going to become art thieves regardless of how cool we think Mr. Crown is. In the same way, I'm not going to become a rapist because I read The Fountainhead and think Howard Roark is a hero. Your argument is ancient, but still carries as little weight as it did when they killed Socrates for corrupting the youth.
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          May 17 2011: Mark I did not support some of my points because I want to open the debate, thank you for doing so.Your 1s.point. So if an action does not always lead to bad results should we then never try to control said action? After all not all drunk drivers commit vehicular homicide and unchecked power only tends to corrupt etc. Of course there must be people who get off on watching snuff films who have never killed anyone and other than Ted Bundy (alas a proven liar) I can not quote another serial killer off the top of my head who blamed porn for his actions. Jon Stewart for instance uses the F-bomb daily and most people of his generation and younger do not even note it anymore. Are you aware that until the 1st Gulf war one of the most difficult tasks of military training was to get soldiers to fire at the enemy. By 1990 violent and ever more realistic video games had overcome that inhibition almost completely. These examples may not prove anything but I hold them as very damning evidence that repeated exposure does tend to lead to acceptance of new norms. I could go on for pages but I hope you will concede my counterpoint. An analogy may help me make it clearer. Guns and Cars in America have killed more Americans since 1945 than the previous 5 years of all out war. Both are held to have legitimate uses in society ( by some people), both are more or less regulated. What exactly is the legitimate need for abusive porn in our society that offsets even a moderate risk to society. Softer porn should be just as effective in theoretically reducing rape as some studies seem to indicate. You suggested that I was taking away the livelihood of the actresses. As far as I know other than a hand full of stars most of them make very little for the risks they take, having unprotected sex, and I have yet to hear of one that made an actual share of the profits that the purveyors rake in. That I hope answers your first 2 points.
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          May 17 2011: Mark now for your third point. You are absolutely right as far as I know there does not exist an accepted delineation point between artistic or mostly harmless Porn and dangerous Porn. Shall we try? If I had my way any depiction of sexuality that was easily accessible on the internet or T.V. would depict encounters between consenting adults, preferably in a committed relationship with respect being shown at all times. However since I have no reasonable hope of that I would be fairly happy if if at least there was no visible disrespect, no buying of services, no brutality, no modeling of how to seduce with deceit or drugs or special pheromones. Nor depictions that make it seem that most women really like rough sex or with just a bit of practice will quickly learn to like anal and oral to the point of pain and gagging. I know it is true that some women do like to be spanked and find it hard to get satisfaction without abuse. I also know that some of their fathers abused them in a fashion that helped create the Fetish. Just because something exists is not a justification for promoting it. If I got more graphic I am afraid the censors would have to interfere and I think they should. Again to answer your point, can we define the line between damaging porn and that which we can tolerate. I agree it is not easy, that does not mean we should not try. As far as what adults wish to indulge in behind closed doors I would not even dream of interfering. I do not wish to interfere as long as it is not pervasively promoted on the internet and other easily accessible public forums. This is not a case of the baby and the bathwater. There is no baby to protect.
          Your fourth point. Yes most women are not nearly as powerless as children nor is it nearly as hard as it used to be for women to get justice in court. Rape is more often reported and more often prosecuted and more often convicted. Still what is the success rate now 20%? I doubt it.
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          May 17 2011: Fourth point continued. Yes Andy Kaufman of SNL "Latka" in his gender war wrestling matches was once beaten by a woman who outweighed him. But he was not even of average size. So I would hope that you can concede that the average woman compared to the average man has little hope of being able to defend herself without a gun or years of martial arts training.
          As for the rest of your argument, Shakespeare to Socrates, I think you are making only the poorest analogy. Ken Robinson (a TED presenter) made the point that 18 year old men on average have spent 10,000 hours playing video games and an equal amount of time watching porn. Watching even several performances of Othello pretend to kill his wife is in no way the same as even a hundred hours of watching a high definition film of someone actually abusing a woman. You act as though you must defend rights like abortion or gun ownership from someone who will never rest until both are totally banned. The fact that some people would gladly ban both and some who would also ban all even faintly erotic depictions does not prove that a moderate position couldn't or shouldn't be found. The All or Nothing stand is paranoid cop out on either extreme. It is similar to your implication that if I can not Prove that abusive porn is overwhelmingly harmful in most cases then I must not try to restrict it at all. By these standards one could say that since not all slaves were worked to death and some when asked in front of their masters expressed gratitude for a job and food and clothing then we should not interfere. Our politically polarized society makes this all harder than it has to be. My analogy is that since many lawmakers are lawyers first is it any surprise that too many of them act like divorce lawyers who scare their clients (voters) with horror stories of what their former lover MIGHT do? They don't get a fatter retainer by acting like statesmen or healing misunderstandings to save the union (marriage).
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    May 25 2011: I drop in here ocassionally to see how the arguments have progressed. It is not a subject I like to talk about. However, I see a lot of people consciously or unconsciously operating on a pleasure/pain rationale here. There are many in societies around that world who take their pleasures without regard to the pain that is caused.

    Someone famous once said something to the effect that ; 'Nothing that defiles a man comes from outside himself. It is the corruption of their own hearts that condemn them.''
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      May 26 2011: That is a very clarifying observation Debra, in a nutshell! Yes exactly how can it be that any ones right to the enjoyment of "free speech" must then allow the exploitation and degradation and in effect defamation of women? Where is the equivalent of the Jewish Defense League for women? Isn't it similar to a bullied student who does not dare to stand up for himself or face defamation like Anita Hill . We as a Society have a responsibility to at least try make the classroom and the school environment in essence a sanctuary so that those who can not effectively defend themselves should not need to. In the case of women we have gone so far towards the opposite end of the spectrum it seems to me that we have allowed a hostile environment for women to become "normal" and acceptable.
      Is there really any one who denies the obvious fact that for many people this type of high definition porn tends to be addicting? Billions and Billions sold suggest otherwise! I am not advocating overall censorship but can we not at least draw a line a little further short of child porn and snuff films? Some bloggers have denied that there is a problem. If most of us concede that gambling is a danger to society because it is addicting and wastes resources and in some cases destroys lives why is it so hard to see that the Billions siphoned off for gratuitously abusive porn that poisons the internet and our society with a perverted view of women deserves no defense and should be controlled. All I am suggesting is that we remove the quick and easy profit motive by a confiscation of the plunder of the purveyors. How did it become politically correct to insist that the "Empress"needs no clothes anyway and that human dignity is just an illusory concept, impossible to define, so why try.
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      May 26 2011: In cases of gang rape by sportsmen in Australia in 2004, it has become clear that the use of prostituted women and strip clubs is integral to the woman hating and male bonding which led to the sexual violence. The argument also suggests that women who are not prostituted are safer because some other women are set aside to be commercially raped on their behalf. Women's equality requires that all women should be free from sexual exploitation. Prostitution cannot eliminate rape when it is itself bought rape. The connection between rape and prostitution is that women are turned into objects for men's sexual use; they can be either bought or stolen. A culture in which women can be bought for use is one in which rape flourishes.
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    May 18 2011: I like Debra's new input here and think it would be a fruitful channel to follow tigether. Also wanted to sort of restate my own place in a clearer way, now that I get what Chad is is respoding to through this question. So my short answer is no, a class action suite is not viable ( don't hink it has any unperpinnings)..but sexual addiction is a culture wide issue and there is apparently no question it is being fed, cultivated by the use ofporn sites on the internet. Now that I think about the fact that we are all subsidizing tis as its co mingled with our isp's and oour web histing sites..I like the idea of segregating through requirement and throgh specific segrgated .xxx isp's and web hosts. As a social problem, and it is a social problem, I wouldlike to see more study of sex addiction and its feasible interventions. Also I would like more studis on why this seems to be more prevavlently a male problem ( of coutse many female sex addicts as well but my impression is that ithe incidence among males is higher. Debra..glad to have you here.
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      May 19 2011: Lindsay, I am afraid you may be right that the courts would not uphold a suit. Still trying and losing can not make the situation worse than it already is, can it? But I really hope there might be more support from new research than you or even I am aware of. The creation of a hostile environment and the exploitation of young women are two strong points that I think would be indefensible by the profiteers. The issues of what it does to men in the way of addiction and warping of perceptions that make it more difficult to form a stable and positive marital bond should not be overlooked. So much of even the small sampling I have seen of Porn is so virulently abusive it would be quickly labled "Hate speech" if this were looked at from a racial perspective. Even Gays rights would get more consideration than is being given to women. The very reasons that often make it hard for women to defend themselves in the workplace apply here it seems to me. If they speak up they are often branded as radical feminists or bad sports as if this issue were just an off color joke. Do we have to wait till Clarence Thomas is gone from the court before we can recover from the crucifixion of Anita Hill? Recent events have given even more evidence that she was telling the truth.
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    May 17 2011: i'd like to mention a thought by dan dennett in this talk, at around 10:30 (but worth watching the entire talk).

    in short: the native americans were no small part killed not by muskets, but infections carried in by europeans. similarly some memes are much more disastrous to certain communities than others. some communities are get used to memes like pornography. for other communities, it is deadly.

    possible conclusion: such issues cannot be regulated on world level. it must be regulated in each and every community separately.
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      May 18 2011: Thank you Krisztian for your cogent input. Yes as an American with some"Indian" heritage I agree that the real killers where germs, alcohol and then lawyers (broken treaties) bullets only mopped up. It seems that Porn has a more devastating effect on those raised in a fundamentalist community perhaps because of their beliefs make them more ashamed and secretive and also because they have developed no resistance much like Alcohol which is still devastating Native American communities. Life expectancy for the Full Bloods where I grew up is 44 last I heard
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    May 17 2011: Your intention is good but eventually each person must come to their own path of what is mindful free speech and what is right action in ones work and personal life. It is a personal choice to be of good character not a right or a law. One must learn to grow from within not just obey laws. It must be that way or society will never truly change - you will only be managing what you cannot control.
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      May 18 2011: Brandt I admire your ethics and agree that in the end it must be so. I am not trying to control the morals of individuals but can we not at least avoid unnecessary negative influences? We now limit advertising for alcohol and cigarettes and discourage movies which glorify hard drug use. Is this so different? We try hard to stop bullying in school. Young girls now often feel great pressure to perform acts that their grandmothers never heard of. Do you really believe that the internet is not a major source of this?
      I truly believe that the parameters of human behaviors are hard wired in our beings. Read Desmond Morris's comments on the ten stages of human bonding common to 60 different human cultures. He supports the obvious fact that a "one night stand" (VERY appropriate name) is the surest way to damage the chances of a long and stable relationship. I have literally searched for 37 years for ONE case where a successful partnership began with a roll in the hay on the first date. "Porn" is the sugar frosted empty calories that substitutes for real human interaction.Addictive but no lasting nutrition. Increasingly better research supports that the plasticity of our brains allows gradual remodeling with strong effects. And the fact that the two professions that pay the most attention to advances in psychology are Advertising and Politics underscores this fact. No one likes to discuss this topic in depth, it is uncomfortable and even claiming enough experience to know something about it admits that one has gone wading and felt the undertow.
  • May 16 2011: It's proven that anything that causes pleasure can be habit forming. While I wouldn't consider seeing pornography to be at the same level of addiction as the use of narcotics. Orgasm and arousal do release chemicals that cause pleasure and therefore can be habit forming. People can become addicted to anything, food, sex, money, emotions. I don't think the proper way of stopping addiction is to ban them or get rid of them entirely but instead to encourage an awareness and healthy way of excepting them. I don't have much knowledge or experience on the subject of prostitution other than that people "mostly impoverished women" sell sexual services for money. I hope you understand that I do not support child pornography, sexual assault, or mistreatment of women. I also agree that there may be material on the web that could be labeled pornography that is actually "sexual assault" just as there is material on the web of people being mutilated and murdered. I strongly believe that videos of women being raped should be taken down the moment they're discovered. I also believe that "actresses" or "pornstars" have a right to stand up for themselves and declare a working environment that is more hospitable. I don't know if a union to protect "sex workers" exists but I am sure that it could be very beneficial to that profession. I think we all agree that sexually transmitted diseases are not helpful to humanity but their are ways of protecting ones self. I would think that "pornstars" have to be tested as well as legitimate prostitutes like in Las Vegas or Amsterdam. I am all for a stricter standard on pornography but not at all for banning it.
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      May 18 2011: Dillan I agree with much of what you share in this post. When I first moved to Amsterdam in the plane I sat next to a Dutch Doctor. He told me with evident pride that none of the "working girls" in Amsterdam were HIV positive because they were required to use protection. That may have been true then but no longer. Many if not most "johns" feel that prophylactics interfere with their pleasure and pressure the girls to not require them. I have heard that the transmission rate is 2 to 1 (men to women) for STDs and it does not take long for the odds to make the women sick. Life expectancy is under 50 for sex workers even those whose careers are not much longer than a professional football players.
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    May 15 2011: Pornography is very profitable, with sales ranging from $10-14 billion annually, no one will ever want to ban that industry.
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      May 16 2011: Again I do not want to even try to ban all porn. By analogy in the States banning even hand guns would be a fatal mistake for any President. But at least there is some regulation. And until recently assault rifles were banned. That is my goal, can we not at least penalize the profits of those who assault women's dignity and devalue the worth of human relations? Is it a coincidence that slasher films often portray attractive young women as the victims? I have seen very few and none recently but I seem to remember that Jamie Lee Curtis escaped on Friday the 13th (or was it Halloween) because she was a good girl and the bad girls were salaciously slashed to death. I think those sorts of films should be x -rated instead of ones that model loving sexuality between partners.
      • May 16 2011: Chad your last post just went in a hundred different directions.

        I want to hear your criteria for acceptable pornography. I have my own opinions on this issue but I would really like to hear yours.

        1. At what point does something become pornography?
        2. What is the difference between softcore and hardcore pornography?
        3. Can a naked picture of a man or women ever be considered art?
        4. When does art start becoming pornography?
        5. If art is entire subjective can pornography be art?
        6. How do you think pornography should be regulated?
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          May 17 2011: Dillan you ask some good questions, but apparently you did not read my explanation or I failed to make it clear. I do not want to ban Porn as a whole nor do I think that it is reasonable to try to restrict even what I believe to be damaging types of porn other than on the open internet where people come across it without intent. The move to create a separate category such as .xxx may go a long way towards my goal. Since my question is not about porn as a whole your points 1.2. 3. 4. and 5. while interesting and worth discussing are not germane to my proposal to limit abusive porn that incites violence and disrespect. The last question I have answered in my explanation ie. a class action suit against those profiteering by creating and purveying abusive porn that, if successful, would take the profit motive out of the picture. Fines and taxation could work as well but I thought a class action suit would allow the latest scientific research and studies to have their day in court and help define new workable limits.
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    May 15 2011: Your point is very good one. Addiction of anything bad from very young age can lead towards so many dangerous stages of behaviors. I have some point outs, which many of you will not agree,
    1- Legalization of prostitution should be banned (this is what create opportunities for animal instinct in humans).
    2- Women should not be used as a power tool for business.
    3- Every parents should keep an eye on their children and also create friendly room for their children to share everything with you, to help them for their mental and physical growth in the right direction.
    4- Same Gender Marriages should not be courage.
    5- God has given us free world, but it doesn't mean that we should go beyond the limits of freedom.
    6- Pornographic business may be rated as the duck who lay golden eggs, but it has 99.9% chances to lead us to so many problems in our society. So we should go for what benefit humanity.
    7- Government should provide other opportunities equally for the women, as the men.

    There are so many of them but think it may be enough for one to understand.
    • May 15 2011: Naeem, I really liked the way that you structured your thoughts in this particular post.
      You said that you had many thoughts which many of us may not agree.

      I have opinions on this particular issue that you may not agree with.

      Legalization of prostitution should be the choice of the people of the particular country. In the United States prostitution is illegal in most states except for very few. Sexuality is a very tough issue to deal with because a lot of it has to do with the culture that one is brought up in. I believe that prostitution and pornography can serve a legitimate purpose in society if properly regulated. Sex is a natural part of life and can be very beneficial to peoples health and well being.
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      May 15 2011: Dillan much of the "porn" on the internet is in effect legalized prostitution. An "actress" is paid to perform acts or allow her body to be abused. Making love is seldom if ever a accurate description, it is the insidious demeaning attitudes and inculcation of underlying negative values to which I object. My perception is that this has created a widespread climate that is increasingly hostile to women and unhealthy in my opinion for society.Yes it has proven virtually impossible to stop what goes on between "consenting adults"in private that is not my goal, but can we at least make it unprofitable for the exploiters to pander it to all ages on the internet? Specifically real and simulated acts of violence and degradation that portray the view that human beings have no value above their ability to get someone off? This abusive and selfish attitude seems to be spreading and by allowing this" trade in flesh" we in essence appear to condone this virtual form of modern slavery. I admit it is a slippery slope (no pun intended) but does that mean we must capitulate?
      • May 15 2011: I agree that children shouldn't be allowed to watch pornography. It is the parents job to block access to these mediums. I support the idea of labeling all pornography websites with (.xxx) instead of (.com) or (.net). I am still of the belief that pornography should be legal but I agree that women should not be treated as objects and that they should not be measured only by their ability to get someone off. I support pornography as long as both parties agree on the situation. This may seem off topic to you but what is your stance on female models? Aren't they being judged solely on their ability to be "Attractive".
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          May 16 2011: Dillan I agree that the topic has very broad connotations. It is sad that superficial looks have become so important. By way of analogy I myself do not drink alcohol and perhaps in an ideal world no one would but prohibition has been tried and does not seem to work. We now make an effort to control access for minors and restraint for adults> Bars are now held accountable occasionally for the behavior of overindulging patrons. Also most people know individuals who enjoy a beer or a glass of wine once or twice a week without a problem. Erotic images may have overall some latent risk but that is debatable. All I am asking here is that we make those who exploit men and women pay a price for "porn" that can be shown to be damaging. Some of the performers in porn are now asking that a standard be set requiring that prophylactics be used, in my view a small step in the right direction. At least they would be modeling "safe"sex. We now know thanks to advances in neuroscience that the brain is incredibly plastic. I describe it as a self programing computer. This to me explains the incredible range of fetishism. Especially when one is young "imprinting" seems to occur very easily and quickly. By extension someone who can only be aroused by a partner whose silhouette and coloration meet their expectations is self limited by their own unconscious. This is relatively harmless even underwear and garters etc. But it can quickly become bondage and brutality. The dangerously thin line between arousal associated with violent dominance and actual violence seems obvious to me. Some of the oriental cultures have long had a strong fascination with these images and violent language is reportedly often a integral part of "love making"for them. We have all heard of rapists who never ejaculate, feminists (and I) will give this as evidence that it is an act of dominance not sex.
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          May 18 2011: I love that idea dillain .xxx ..and what about requiring only specifically and separately licensed .xxx isp's and web hosting? That would concentrate ll the users ( subscribers and providers in one place) facilitating parental controls..taking the nuisance and respeonsibility of filters and spams away from alll isp's and remove the subsidization we all provide to this industry when it is co mingle on our isp's. Without your .xxx rating system we are all subsidizing this and have little opportunity for leverage with our ISP's .
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        May 15 2011: I agree 100% with you Mr. Chad. It all triggered by the word "The Freedom of speech". Which really helped us to build societies free from dark. But i think today only the "Mask" has changed but the body is the same behind. Then everybody started rising their heads for their own lusts and false opinions. e.g Cloning of humans, Gay rights, Lesbians rights etc.

        Mr. Dillan's point of view is pretty much encouraging towards bad images in the society. On the one hand you agree that children shouldn't be allowed to watch pornography, How you can stop them while you're encouraging pornography?? Then why we have so many STD'S and higher rate of rape cases today?? We're still blowing off the moral values of humanity in the modern age today. We have to fit in our shorts first, when we go out we should keep in mind that, A woman is our daughter, our mother, a loving wife and also applies the same to women when they go out they should keep in mind that they're pride of fathers, brothers, sons and loving husbands!! I will never appreciate this freedom when our children get caught having sex with strangers "Dad its non of your ********** business, i am free to live my life of my own"..... (Sorry for some strong words) But it is the reality and we have to face it.
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          May 15 2011: "On the one hand you agree that children shouldn't be allowed to watch pornography, How you can stop them while you're encouraging pornography??"

          Discouraging government regulation of an individual's choices is not the same thing as encouraging those choices. I would never encourage you to get a bad hair cut, but I'm not going to try and legislate that choice away from you.

          Also, we stop children from doing all sorts of things adults do. We stop children from driving cars and using matches, but we continue to drive and light the barbecue.
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          May 15 2011: ''Then why we have so many STD'S and higher rate of rape cases today??''


          I'd love to see some sources supporting your statement.

          There's probably less rape today than it used to be, the difference is that it gets reported a lot more and something is actually done about it. Women are not asked if they screamed and cried enough (at least not here) to prove that it was not consensual like in the case involving Rebecca Fay in 1810 in the USA.
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          May 16 2011: As Jáfia has pointed out, if you want to use rate of race cases as a reason you need to find some supporting numbers. The statistics from RAINN show rape cases falling consistently since 1993. ( Perhaps internet porn is actually reducing rape. Without some data to back up your claim you can't make much of a case.
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      May 15 2011: Naeem,

      God has given us no freedom. Whatever freedom we have has been hard earned and it has cost the lives of plenty of people

      The legalization of prostitution has its benefits such as protecting the lives of those women, giving them rights, making sure they are not abused and sick. It seems to work in the Netherlands:

      In poor countries specially, a lot of people become prostitutes because of the lack of opportunities. It's a common reality in my home country and I wish prostitution would be legalized, but it won't be for a long time (if ever) because Brasil is too Christian....
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        May 16 2011: Jafia I lived in the Netherlands for twelve years. My wife is a clinical psychotherapist there and she will tell you that abuse of women may be less than before legalization but it is still horrible. Many of the women are still entrapped by lover-boys (pimps) at a young age and most of those on display in the red light district are no longer Dutch, they are mostly eastern Europeans who were promised a good job and then trapped. trust me Prostitutes are still poor and what little they earn is still often "shared" with criminals, also life expectancy is often under forty. Recently my wife tried to help a mother whose 14 year old daughter was repeatedly abused by teenage hooligans. The police would do nothing about it. I taught school there for six years and the attitude of the boys was that they had a right to use girls. And yes STDs have increased 100% in the last ten years among young people there. Still I am not advocating the control of all erotic materials just the violent and degrading forms that are so prevalent on the internet. In Europe they are actually hard to avoid. Recently they showed the uncut original "Deep Throat" on T.V. (10P.M.) Some of my seventh grade students told me they watched xrated porn frequently. I am busy relocating to the States in part because of the hostile climate that I do not want for my kids.
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        May 16 2011: Jafia, Thanks for your reply. I have come up with some stats for you, Which clearly tells us the story of freedom which God has forbidden us. The ratio for Rape victims are very high in the developed western societies then other countries in the world. Even if the Prostitution is legal in the most of these western countries!!! Why?..not hard to understand... here are the stats below if you want to read..
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          May 17 2011: "This list indicates the number of, and per capita cases of recorded rape. It does not include cases of rape which go unreported, or which are not recorded"
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    May 14 2011: well, that would be hard because not all of them did it by means of forces... But if there is some way that the authority could control the usage of internet which is the primary source of pornography, maybe it would be possible one day hopefully.
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      May 14 2011: Hopefully the authorities never gain control of the internet, it would lead to the greatest atrocities against free speech.
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      May 15 2011: Mr. Idris yes it would be hard. but how much harder than the interdiction of child porn? Drunk driving used to be acceptable now it is not. Mr. Pisarchick I am not advocating that any government control the internet, as China tries to, but that we take , as much as possible, the profits out of the pockets of those who are exploiting the poverty and ignorance of human beings and the weakness of those easily addicted. Pedophiles go to jail, that is perhaps extreme for purveyors of abusive porn but how about confiscation of profits and fines? This does not deny any ones "free" speech as I see it but makes a harmful "industry" less attractive. If you or any one wants to look at art pictures, okay but why does any one need to see abuse and degradation?
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        May 17 2011: Are you suggesting measures such as high taxation rates for businesses that have a role in such productions?
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          May 18 2011: id rather have people have a "sick" outlet to go to than it be illegal and them force that outlet on someone in person.
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          May 18 2011: Yes If we can't confiscate all of them with a punitive class action suit. Literally make it unprofitable!
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    May 25 2011: All of us are human animals. We’re all humans, designed by God for a wonderful purpose in His creation. Yet all of us have this animal instinct in us that causes us to do things we know we shouldn’t do. That’s the animal inside each one of us. The animal is always there. Sometimes it’s restrained and sometimes the animal breaks free, but it’s always there.

    The animal inside is our human nature: the flesh, which is constantly following after it’s own desires. The problem with that is the desires of the flesh are usually opposite the desires of the Spirit of God. They are in opposition to God’s will for our life.
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    May 18 2011: I have to admit that I have only skimmed over most the comments here. I would like to add that I have not noticed much in the way of considering what promotes or leads women to accept a life of work in these areas. Why are we not looking at root causes like childhood sexual abuse by men who were supposed to love and protect the child, poverty brought on by parents who abdicated their responsibilities, abuse by trusted relgious leaders and societies that value female children so much less. Even the issues of drug abuse as attribution are spurious because many many people who choose that route do so to forget their treatment at the hands of unfeeling and corrupt people who abused their bodies and left their souls to rot. The desire for a safer, happier life even for the moment is the filthy but deliverd promise of drug states. To place the blame for sexual exploitation on women - misses more than 90% of the issues.
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      May 19 2011: Wow! great points, thank you for those insightful views Debra.