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How can the Islamic and non-Islamic peoples get along better?
There is a lot of conflict between Islamic and non-Islamic people:
. War in Iraq.
. War in Afghanistan
. Chechnya/Russia.
. Balkans
. Indonesia
. Northern Africa/sub-Saharan Africa
. Uyghurs of China
. Israel/Palestine
What is necessary for us to get along better?
David Smith
This is essentially a culture war, and one that continues to stem from the separation of church and state. The same thing is happening in the United States, where debates of the quote "One Nation under God" are being held.
I believe the answer is leaving Religion off the political agenda. Freedom of Religion is what should be spread to all people.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Debra Smith 200+
For example - if a black person holds a white person responsible for the injustices of slavery- they are more like the slavers than the person they hold responsible! They are thinking like the slaver while I only look like them. This hypothetical black person is now makinig an assumption of my being 'less than' based on my race just as the slavers did to justify their actions. If I am just me and you are just you- we live in the exchanges and experiences of this lifetime- not of generations we never lived. Science has proven that we are all one human family decended genetically from a particualar woman of history. She must be looking down on us and wishing to yell "Don't make me come down there!"
Tim Colgan 50+
Perhaps continual migration is the solution. What do you think?
Debra Smith 200+
Julie Ann 10+
Let me put this another way, suppose you are the mother of Eman al Obeidy, the Libyan woman who has been in the news recently. You carried her, nurtured her as a child, sacrificed to send her to law school. then she is captured, imprisoned, bound, gang raped, sodomised, beaten, maligned. Let's say the rapists have sons. If Eiman al Obeidy was your daughter, would you be able to see the sons of those rapists and rationalise " these are just the sons, they were not the savages who brutalised my daughter. I see them as any other human and I feel compassion for them". I could not.
Debra Smith 200+
But where does the hatred get any of us?
I am actually not a bad example of the issues. I am 'white' but I have the blood of a Native Canadian women in my viens and although I have not yet found the actual proof, I beleive that I have the blood of an East Indian woman in me too. My grandmother, an orphan of a British India soldier and a woman from India came to Canada from England as a 'bonded servant' at 13 - having been told that that she was 18 (she did not discover her real age until she thought she was 65 and was denied her pension. She worked as a virtual slave for 10 years 'to pay off her passage', The women in my ancestry were treated very badly. Where would it get me to hold anyones' ancestors responsible? I was the first woman to take a skilled trade at General Motors in Canada. What good would it do for me to hold the children of the men who did horrible things to me at that time responsible? I long ago realized that those kids lived with those men and they might have- possibly- lived under that cruelty in their own homes. Maybe not- but if not that is a good thing.
Julie Ann- racism, sexism, and all other violations of human rights need to be credited to the people who were definately responsible- the actors themselves. I struggled to learn this. As the first person in my family to go on to higher education, then to get an MA and an MBA everything I have learned makes the idea of generational blame untenable.
In addition, I have a son who has worked at the Canadian embassy in Saudi Arabia. My duaghter-in-law is a diplomat in her own right. While in Saudi her rights were reduced to the level of all Saudi women except when at the Canadian Embassy- and she can have compassion while not condone the way women are treated there.
Julie Ann 10+
Debra Smith 200+
We live in a system that intentionally does not hold "the sins of the fathers against the children unto the 3rd or 4th generation" which is a quote from the scriptures that all of the Abrahamic relgions share.
Julie Ann 10+
I think we need a unified theory of existence, not unlike the theory of everything in physics, that will provide the single elusive answer to these many questions. Perhaps then we will understand our place, the reason for being, how we are related to each other. Perhaps then we will realize that whether we are Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, white, black, man, woman - whatever we are, we are all the same. We are a far way from this, but it is encouraging to see the questions being asked because only by asking will we find answers. Cheers :-)
Debra Smith 200+
Julie Ann 10+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Tim blackburn 30+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Debra Smith 200+
If, as many believe - these books were written by God or Allah himself- how do earnest believers just poo - poo them away with some sort of lofty rationalization? The answer is that many do not.
With many people in this world still illiterate and even more at very literal levels of comprehension how can we just say the threat doesn't exist? Especially when we have seen the outcome. Especially when it is backed by the very fundamental and very rich Saudi nation.
I have been in some seriously scary churches with some seriously literal interpretation and I do not see why it would be any different for any other Holy book or religious group.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
I think my point was just that manipulation of religious beliefes for political ends isn't new ..it's an old story and actually is being played out in the US with the religious fundamentalists.
Not a very compelling arguement on my part I'd have to admit.. just a small reminder that Jihad and the terrible acts that have come from it have counterparts in Christain history.
I know you agree, there are always dangers when we paint any group with abroad buish and discount everyone in that group. It's just silly to think all Muslims share the values of terrorists. Just as it's silly to judge all christian by the extreme and often juts plain silly things fundamentalists do and say.
Debra Smith 200+
In earnestly contending mind to mind with him, I learned that he is a really fine human being. While we may not see spiritual things in the same way- we do agree on the need to be truly caring toward one another.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Salim Solaiman 50+
The list you mentioned, all elements of those are not really Islam versus non Islam
War in Iraq is nothing but an war of getting control oil resource. Saddam himself was heading Bath Party which had no islamic agenda in it rather it was a psuedosocialistic agenda.
Afganistan was a result of Cold War while the the Soviet Union existed and this Islamic element was introduced by the NATO.
Isarel was a transplanted country again with an agenda of having control on Oil Resource of Middle east.
Others are merely conflict of estabilishing regional dominance by greedy politicians.
So I don't see those as really being differences between Islamic & Non Islamic peoples.
However , I strongly believe Islamic world has to open up to the non Islamic people.
Just due to my curiosity to history & culture I visited Vatican , and many other religious places of Hindus, Bhudhas , nobody stopped me. Tthough had to maintain certain rules and didn't have full access, that's fine because that's not necessay for my curiosity.
But interestingly the Holy City of Mecca is completely out of the bound of any non islamic people, reason for which is completely unclear to me.
Islamic people need to be more open. If people can't go near them how they will understand them.
Tim Colgan 50+
In the same way that it appeared that communism and capitalism were two world-views that were inherently incompatible, it at times seems that Islamic and non-Islamic peoples have the same type of thing going on. Despite the fact that as individuals we may be able to connect on a personal level, is it possible that these two world-views are incompatible at a societal level?
Salim Solaiman 50+
Was just putting the events in to time frame to understand those a bit deep.
You see until the terrifying monster MINOTAUR (communism) existed there was no threat from Islamism. As that minotaur flew away like PHONEIX through the wide open window of PERESTROIKA we saw the rise of Saddam, Laden etc...
Still now the whole Middle East (so called Islamic world) is full of medieval tyrants but they were & are very good friends to the power centres.
Only in recent past as the people over there when trying to fight back & couple of monsters fallen down as a result , good wishes of power centres become visible.
No media is talking about what happened to Bahrain and some other countries. Libyan gangster was stripped off it's clothes by his own brutality in the face of people's rebellion against decades old brutality, media is focusing only there....and good wish intercepted but things really happening very slow.
About others the world is quiet now. Defintely it will not remain quiet long..... if the reason of economy press it hard really, you will see things will take a different turn.
War is really a profitable economic game as it costs few hundred thousand lives only or a bit more !!!
Thanks for your compliments Tim.
Tim Colgan 50+
Saudi Arabia is indeed a unique case. Sitting on top of huge oil reserves. Ruled by a monarch. Birthplace of bin Laden and most of the 9/11 terrorists (and their financiers as well). Wealthy yet archaic in their religious fundamentalism which doesn't even allow woman to show their face in public.
What are your insights on this country? Could the monarch stay in power without religion?
Debra Smith 200+
Tim Colgan 50+
edit: Which would also explain the Saudi suppression of the Yemen revolts (again with US military equipment).
Debra Smith 200+
There is no opposition for a couple of reasons. One is that oil money goes to every one of the members of the Royal family (and there are lots) and that all business is done by royal grant of an area of business and no one else can be in that business.
I don't think there is much 'squeezing down' either just a lot of 'speaking with forked tongue" and good advice about when to get out of Dodge!.
Salim Solaiman 50+
Saudi is a biazarrely unique case. My observation can turn in to a whole book , but afraid of being off track of the discussion.
Yes your observation is partially right, religion is one of the protectors of the monarch but equally important is US blessing. Supports from tribal leaders to small extent is also needed. And all these are being bought buy oil money , so what is the biggest protector of monarchy you think now ? Not going other intricate details of my understanding.
No form organisation / club (other than business or office) is allowed there. Women are not only fully covered but also can't enter in any restaurant if there is no so called family section available. If invited to other house with family , women had to enter that house throug a separate small door and so on...... Lot lot Saudis are in jails of Saudi for decades with out any trial as they expressed a bit differences of opinion some time and could not flee away of the country there after.
What @ Debra talked about oil money is right.
Yemen is the poor country has been being under strict control for decades by a recently fallen monster is funded both by US & Saudi. Mountainous tarrain not easy to access made it heaven for extrimists to defiants Saudi rulers. Money from Saudi goes there just to kill mostly the difiants.
It's really spider net kind of situation in the whole middle east. Wonder who is the biggest friend of US in Middle East though widely believed thought is it's Israel , I am really doubtful.
Debra thanks for your comments in your earlier post here , which I took as a compliment that I doubt I deserve though :), I know you know lot about the area from a diplomate viewpoints , mine one is rather superficial observation of people from the street .
Debra Smith 200+
Debra Smith 200+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Salim Solaiman 50+
I know your good intension but really there is no concern with title as I feel I know Tim a bit by this time :).
According rules of communication that's the right title , as it is being perceived by vast majority in that way. Even if someone can prove me it's happening that way I am open to accept :)
Have a good day
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Salim Solaiman 50+
Tim Colgan 50+
I would argue that religion enables war. It is not correct to say Islam is unique in this respect. I doubt the invasion of Iraq would have occurred without the Christian mindset in the White House. But Islam does appear to be driving a wedge between people. I think it is valid to address that as an issue.
Salim Solaiman 50+
Can you find out a single war in which the winner had not take control wealth & women were not violated (please don't misunderstand me to be sexist or putting both in parallel, I am just telling the fact and I fully resent that nasty notion towards women) of the losers?
In old age actually the people were motivated to join the army and war by telling that if they win they will get part of wealth of the enemies.
The first & foremost thing winners do is rob all the wealth (earlier they used to capture people and sell them as slave as well) they can from the country they won. They don't focus much on establishing their religion or ism of which they used as mask to bring the war in place.
How many of those warlords / kings / generals are religious really? But yes they have blessings of religious group on them. What I know to a great extent the underlying benefit of Afgan war is the control over highly profitable poppy cultivation & it's trade by the Talibans & other Afgan warlords. So again economics in forefornt , though it's ecomoics drugs !!
All religions instinctively hold up hatred for others so it definitely can cause itself war theoretically but in practical one can see the economics & lust of power behind.I agree some people with Islamic belief are supplying the basic raw materials to instigate war but for whom they are playing the role not sure really as the meaning of Islam itself is Peace ! !!
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Salim Solaiman 50+
By the way if you have any travel plan in my part of the world (I am in Sri lanka now will be here for sometime) just let me know, local beers here are great as well :)
Debra Smith 200+
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Tim Colgan 50+
I know very little about Malaysia, but it sounds like a fascinating place. It does appear that there is a great deal of religious diversity there and that people manage to live in relative peace. In reading up on your country I discovered that although 60% of the people there are Muslim, only the Sunni branch is allowed.
How do you explain that although the constitution allows freedom of religion, it does no permit non-Sunni Islam to be practiced? What are people afraid of?
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Salim Solaiman 50+
l disagree with you ,what you said about Shithis (Shias) as it's not exclusive to them only. Most of the Islamic extrimists now a days creating havoc are sunnis.
Actually to understand better the conflict of Shithis & Sunnis we need to go back to the history & look in to just after the assassination of 4th Khalifa of Islam. (I don't understand why out of 4 Khalifas, three were assassinated when the meaning of Islam is peace).
Besides other than Shithi & Sunni there are lot more sects and sub sects in Muslim world. With in sunnis also there are numbers of sub sects and each is hostile to others. I can't understand why one Islam has so many sects with such a high degree of intolerance ?
Your way of defending that law is not an comfortable one, it's clear violation of human rights. Definitely law of the soil can protect any of it's citizens through proper enforcement of criminal law , does not really need to ban any group unless they are dreadly to other citizen which Sithis are not. In many countries these two sects are co-existing. Even Sunni dominated Saudi ruled by archaic law did not ban them ever.
Like many I am also amazed with economic development & beauty of Malaysia. However the leadership of Malaysia headed Dr. Mahathir didn't only focus to religion to bring stability to the country to drive development. It's a country of multi ethnicity , multi culture & multi language. Even 60% muslims are not from single ethnic group. So what I feel religion was only a small block of the whole puzzle that leadership solved to a great extent. Just an example , Malaysian's use English alphabets to write , thats the way the language issue was solved.
I agree with you about apparent religious harmony in Malaysia but you can't disagree existance of extrimists group though they are small and govt is very careful about them.
Sad to say in my many short travels to Malaysia I observed lot of racist behaviour from people in general of such a developed economy !!!
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Salim Solaiman 50+
Sorry for my ignorance about a Al Qaida kind of Shiah group in your country , as Al Qaida is banned in most countries so your country can also ban that specific Shia group. However I disagree about your comment on overall Shia community with in Muslim world.
Well that's inherent characteristic of religious groups where each thinks other is dead wrong.
Don't want to take the discussion off track, just to ensure you ,I myself never faced any racist behavior , what I told is my observation of wide spread racist behavior to the immigrant workers in your country.
These workers went your country becasue your country need them to keep your economy moving , so they desreve better treatment.
By the way I last visited your country in Feb'10.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Tim blackburn 30+
Tim Colgan 50+
But Saudi Arabia has a great deal of trade with the west. You could say that their economy is based on international trade. Yet it has become the core of Islamic terrorism. What more is needed?
lynn eschbach 30+
Perhaps if Woody Allen's mother from RADIO DAYS chastized us from the heavens.
Tim Colgan 50+
Paige Steele-Rollins
However, I doubt that the idea of tolerance/acceptance will be used by military forces, and it is hard to believe that we will ever see peace in the near future.
Debra Smith 200+
Paige Steele-Rollins
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Tim Colgan 50+
aside: I'm sure others find things they can't tolerate in us - our military domination, deterioration of family, pornography, etc.