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Hassan Syed
Rosemount, MN
United States

Executive Director (Resources), Twycross Zoo, United Kingdom

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Is Universe design pre-programmed or random?

Is the incomprehension of complexity called chaos or does the true randomness exists in the universe? If we believed in what Laplace said, then we could argue that the whole universe is pre-programmed.

This could be the most compelling logical argument on the existence of intelligence outside the known physical universe.

Related Talks:

Sean Carroll: Distant time and the hint of a multiverse

Topics: chaos universe

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Hassan Syed
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May 14 2011: David: I started this conversation due to curiosity. I don’t have a theory of my own either.
Budimir: I still think that quantum theory has yet to prove or disprove what we understand as facts right now. In my humble opinion, laws of motion, gravity and relativity are well understood and widely accepted. If I go with what is currently proven, I have to go with deterministic nature of matter distribution and accumulation in the universe.
In any case, I have no preference one way or the other. I am just curious to know if the logic that I was thinking made any sense or not.
- Budimir Zdravkovic 20+
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  May 14 2011: Quantum theory is well understood and accepted. Certain properties of molecules like the delocalization of electrons in organic molecules and their thermodynamic stability can only be explained with quantum theory. .
Tim blackburn 30+
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May 10 2011: could you not program randomness? and in physics randomness does exsist, as probibility
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- Tim Colgan 50+
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  May 9 2011: What are you saying Helen? It hurts your head to ponder the infinite, so you might as well give up thinking? May the force be with you.
  - Hassan Syed
    
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    May 11 2011: I think the question is how to draw the final conclusion. May be we are not ready yet.
    - David Collin
      
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      May 12 2011: Just wondering: Why did you ask the question? Seems to be no definitive answer, so how does that affect the way you live your life?
Alan Bishop
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May 9 2011: Design and operation are two different things. I have no idea who the designer could be, and, in fact, who designed the Designer. Possibilities are infinite, as Bob highlights. Budimir also highlights chaotic particles, I bow to his knowledge on this subject.

My thoughts are that the universe is to a large extent random since its operation is largely chaotic. Did someone or something design the universe? There is no evidence to suggest the notion of a designer. We learn more about the universe(s) every day and, if we keep our minds open, we will constantly discover more amazing things.
Bob Flisser
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May 9 2011: Hassan, LaPlace's Demon was put out of business by quantum mechanics. The demon made sense under the clockwork universe of classical Newtonian physics, where you could theoretically predict the future by knowing the exact position and motion of every object, down to its smallest particle. But Heisenberg, Bohr and (reluctantly) Einstein showed that you can only determine probabilities.

Feynman went even further. He showed that when you consider all the possible paths a particle can take when moving from one end of a table to the other end, you need to consider paths that take it zipping around the room and even zipping around Jupiter before it makes the five foot trip across the table. The total probability is the sum of all probabilities of its motion.
- Hassan Syed
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  May 11 2011: Bob: Please see my response to Budimir.
Budimir Zdravkovic 20+
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May 8 2011: I don't think it's an argument for an intelligence or God. Although a clockwork universe did seem like a reasonable enough conclusion for a God in the days of Newton. But then again back in those days it was reasonable for men to wear make up and long curly wigs. If you walk around like that these days, someone will offer to take you to a hotel room. So the idea is were they just interpreting the clockwork as another kind of aesthetic?

But I think on the macroscopic scale things tend to follow a cause and effect progress. On this scale we only call things random if a phenomnon is too complex for us to elucidate a real cause. Like the roll of dice appears to be random, but that is because it's hard to determine how the dice will land and travel.

This applies to most molecular and biological systems and so on. But once we go subatomic, randomness does become inherent to the object. With quantum theory particles are calculated as probabilities. It is conceptually baffling and mathematically tedious. In traditional science and logic we are used to thinking of objects as only occupying a single position at a given time, with subatomic particles those traditional notions completely break down.
- Tim Colgan 50+
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  May 9 2011: Budimir (or anyone else who has an informed opinion):
  
  I've studied a bit of quantum physics - Heisenberg uncertainty principle, Schrodenger equations and the like. Have gone through the math. Applied it to hypothetical applications. Got the expected results. But was never too sure about it's true significance.
  
  You have reiterated the common viewpoint - that randomness is inherent to sub-atomic phenomena. But I question the truth of this statement. In fact, a discussion here calls this interpretation into question:
  
  http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-uncertainty
  
  "The interpretation of these relations has often been debated. Do Heisenberg's relations express restrictions on the experiments we can perform on quantum systems, and, therefore, restrictions on the information we can gather about such systems; ... Or else, are they restrictions of an ontological nature, i.e., do they assert that a quantum system simply does not possess a definite value for its position and momentum at the same time? ... The debate between these different views has been addressed by many authors, but it has never been settled completely."
  
  In other words, although it has been proven that we can't simultaneously observe a particle's position and momentum, it has not been proven that an underlying deterministic foundation does not exist.
  
  What do you think?
  - Budimir Zdravkovic 20+
    
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    May 10 2011: Yeah that could be the case, but that would mean denying that the particle is a wave and saying that hidden variables make the particle behave like a wave. It seems to me that it's much more simple and rational to just assume that the particle is a wave until we have observation that shows us otherwise.
    
    There could be a deterministc foundation to quantum physics, but I don't see a reason why we have to assume that there is one.
  - Budimir Zdravkovic 20+
    
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    May 10 2011: Just to clear up any confusion. By the last sentence I am asking why there needs to be a deterministic foundation of quantum mechanics if quantum mechanics according to current theory is the foundation of all macroscopic determinism.
    
    So if macroscopic determinism can be reduced to quantum mechanics. Why reverse the theory and say quantum mechanics can be reduced to non-macroscopic determinism.
    - Tim Colgan 50+
      
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      May 10 2011: Agreed that it is not possible to establish (at least currently) whether there is a deterministic underpinning to the universe. But the answer to this question seems to relate to the original question asked.
      
      So I just wanted to point out that quantum theory does not seem to prove whether the universe is "pre-programmed or random".
  - Budimir Zdravkovic 20+
    
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    May 10 2011: Yeah but we could say that about anything in science, the inductive method never provides absolute proof.
    
    Even with determinism we thought it was rigid cause and effect sequence but then we discovered quantumm mechanics and we found out that determinism only appears to be deterministic in actuality it is just a highly probable random event. One day we may find out that what seems random in quantum mechanics is somehow determined who knows. But currently we have to work with what we have.
  - Hassan Syed
    
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    May 11 2011: In 100% agreement Tim.
- Hassan Syed
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  May 11 2011: Problem with quantum mechanics is that we are just starting in this domain and our knowledge is fairly limited. Until such time when we have a good understanding on the movement of sub-atomic particals and majority of scientists have agreed to the conclusiveness of that knowledge, we have to go with what we know for sure.
  This is the reason; I think there is enough room to challenge the existence of true randomness.
  - Budimir Zdravkovic 20+
    
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    May 11 2011: The majority of the scientists have agreed that quantum mechanics is a pretty sound theory. You and Tim seem to favour determinism but determinism is not any more "reasonable" than quantum theory.
    
    Quantum theory predicts all the same natural phenomna as classical determinism and it does it very well. So I don't see a reason to assume that some "additional" variables are hidden from observation.
    - Tim Colgan 50+
      
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      May 11 2011: Budimir: You're missing the point of my original posts. The majority of scientists who really address the root principles of quantum mechanics are not in agreement as to whether the randomness merely applies to our ability to observe, or is inherent in the underlying reality.
      
      The popular press version of quantum mechanics is that it is "based" on randomness.
      
      If you have any profs with a strong background in this area please do me a favor and bounce these ideas off of them. I'd really like to know how they respond.
  - Budimir Zdravkovic 20+
    
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    May 11 2011: I don't think that's the case. And yeah I know a few professors I used to do research and I worked at the chemistry department at a university. Plus I have entire books on quantum theory which are not popular science. I have one purely on quantum theory which I use as a reference and it addresses this very issue and I have a text book from my physical chem course where the last few chapters strictly deal with quantum theory.
    
    The only reason why you are assuming determinism is the underlying principle is because that's what you've been accostumed to observing your whole life, that all things have a deterministic explanation, that the principles of probability only apply to phenomena where we don't have enough knowledge or information.
    
    But that doesn't have to be the case for subatomic particles. mathematics is mathematics, we don't govern how it applies to reality we discover how it applies to reality. If subatomic particles can be inherently probabilistic and they can predict macroscopic determinism then the theory is sound. It can't be discarded. It can only be challlenged by further results but not by proposing hidden variables. To me this is like proposing a God like mystical presence to fill in details so the theory adheres to our preconcieved notions of reality.
    - Tim Colgan 50+
      
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      May 11 2011: You might find this interesting:
      
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretation_of_quantum_mechanics
      
      Quotes:
      
      "There exist a number of contending schools of thought, differing over whether quantum mechanics can be understood to be deterministic, which elements of quantum mechanics can be considered "real", and other matters."
      
      and
      
      "The Copenhagen interpretation was traditionally the most popular among physicists, next to a purely instrumentalist position that denies any need for explanation (a view expressed in David Mermin's famous quote "shut up and calculate", often misattributed to Richard Feynman.) However, the many-worlds interpretation has been gaining acceptance; a poll mentioned in "The Physics of Immortality" (published in 1994), of 72 "leading cosmologists and other quantum field theorists" found that 58% supported the many-worlds interpretation, including Stephen Hawking and Nobel laureates Murray Gell-Mann and Richard Feynman"
      
      The "many-worlds interpretation" is deterministic.
      
      Maybe you've become too accustomed to a probabilistic explanation.
  - Budimir Zdravkovic 20+
    
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    May 11 2011: I had a completely different idea in mind because I assumed you were talking about Bohm's interpretation. That's who your original article was making a reference to, this is Bohm's interpretation.
    
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohm_interpretation
    
    This is what the article you posted was talking about and I didn't see this interpretation as a credibl;e one because it relies on smoke and mirrors to describe the effects of the wavefunction.
    
    Hassan also made it fairly clear that he believes our knowledge of quantum mechanics is in some way incomplete, it probably is, but there is enough evidence for a credible theory in either interpretation so it's not any more "incomplete" than any classical theory.
    
    Now if we are discussing Many Worlds, which I neglected until you brought it up, I would say this theory could rightfully compete with the Copenhagen interpretation. I was always open to the idea of challenging the Copenhagen interpretation and we can discuss that if you want.
    - Tim Colgan 50+
      
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      May 11 2011: No Budimir, I'm not really interested right now in going deeper into it.
      
      My purpose in debating the issue was primarily to test my own belief that the results of quantum physics don't discount the possibility of the totality being deterministic.
      
      Thanks for helping me.
  - Budimir Zdravkovic 20+
    
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    May 11 2011: Just to note, if you scroll down further you will see that even Everett (originator of many worlds interpretation) criticizes the Bohm interpretation.
  - Budimir Zdravkovic 20+
    
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    May 11 2011: No problem. Many Worlds is a sound interpretation, Bohm's interpretation is just awkward though.

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