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Lindsay Newland Bowker
Stonington, ME
United States

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Do You Feel Any Relief, Joy, Satisfaction or Greater Safety at the News of Bin Ladens Death? Does it Bring Any Closure On 9/11 for you ?

Strangely my reactioin to this mornings news that Osma Bin Laden has been killed by US agents was..so what? This is a headline? Do we really care any more about Bin Laden? This does nothing to alter in the ground of my being the overwhelming tragedy of that day and the days that followed and all that was revealed about lapses in US security. Aren't we so past our pre-occupation with Bin Laden? Does his death end the threat of terrorism? Are we still living with the same level of guardedness about terrorism as we were 10 years ago or have other things moved to the fore of what is terrifying and urgent?

What was you reaction? Is this great joyous news to celebrate or just a foot note to an unfortgettably tragic time in our modern lives? Is this freally headline news? The most important thing that happened on our globe today?

There is an excellent arrtcle in the paper today about the complexities and many undercurrent Bin Ladens Death has brought to the surfacehttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42870277/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/

Topics: cultural values global community global crisis journalism peace security terrorism

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Vasil Rangelov 50+
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TED Translator Associate

May 8 2011: @Lindsay Newland Bowker
On making an alternative conversation about stopping terrorism... done:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/2663/how_to_stop_terrorism.html

(had to plug it in here... just in case)
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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May 8 2011: As this wonderfully rich and deep conversation draws to a close, I want to add to ur record here this excellent nuanced exchange of reactions to Bin Ladens death betwren two intelligent and creditable journalists.http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/35971 ( Thanks to Tim Colgan for bringing this forward)
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- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 8 2011: thank you for adding to this record but thank you most of all for honoring what has been shared here by reading it and thinking about it..with us..here.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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May 7 2011: Here is Noam Chomsky's take on Bin Laden's slaying..an important and relevant addition to voices around the world speaking about the meaning of this event. It begins from a very different place than ther cheering crowds here and around the world:"It’s increasingly clear that the operation was a planned assassination, multiply violating elementary norms of international law. There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 80 commandos facing virtually no opposition—except, they claim, from his wife, who lunged towards them."".http://www.countercurrents.org/chomsky070511.htmIt also ties in and speaks directly to what Poby (Pabrita Muhopadhyay) has spoken to in his comments through this conversation. There are other stories and other views beyond the implausible story our President iold us on Monday, beyond what all those cheering tthe squares think is the story. We who have ears perhaps should hear.
TED 10+
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TED Staff

May 5 2011: We have removed several threads and off-topic comments in this conversation. While we welcome differing opinions, we ask you to engage in respectful discussions and refrain from posting off-topic comments..

If any comments posted as responses now do not make much sense, please consider posting them as stand alone comments instead.

Thank You,

TED Conversations Admin
conversations@ted.com
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 6 2011: alll is well here..tx..actually glad to see the comments back.I responded to them supportively as they were introduced and I think the way music, art and favorite poems come back to us at times like this is significant. It is part of our response.I think a very good record has been built here on how a few of us from all over the world who were not out with the cheering crowds responded to Bin Ladens slaying. This is a very rich and deep conversation and all who have sustained it and made it grow have made an important contribution to TED Conversations.
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    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 7 2011: very kind richrad..tx
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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May 5 2011: I want to somehow try to summarize the depth and richness of the offerings here not in my words but with a few quotes from the commenters themselves. I would encourage you to do the same

I"I think of all the potential young followers of Bin Laden and young people who are against him. how they interpret what happened will impact on what things would be in the future. Amily Shaw"

Avenging does not help. Compassion does" Pabrita Mukhopadhyay

"I grieve for myself as well, for a country and world and I can no longer live in, a country and world that no longer exist. A friend told me I have phantom limb pain for an amputated soul. Bin Laden’s death makes me feel as if my heart has been ripped out . . . again. " Vincine Fallica

His death has absolutely no affect on my thoughts/perspectives on terrorism. Osama's death didn't get rid of terrorism. Just him. Corvida Raven
ANUJ BHARDWAJ
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May 5 2011: It doesnt make a difference as it does not end anything.It does not iinclude law hence Its not justice but vengenace.
We are as vulnerable as we were earlier.Anyone could have killed him without the kind of support he had.
Have we treated the cause?
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 5 2011: Auj..as you can see many mnay here stand with you in this. thank you
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- Debra Smith 200+
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  May 4 2011: Holy Smokes!
  Now that is what I call applying Richard H's idea of changing hearts and minds through arts!
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  - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
    
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    May 5 2011: ' Blowin the Wind defnitely does still speak..whoever is singing it..even any of us in the shower or working in the garden.. Interesing what we recall and bring to mind when something in global headlines confronts us unexpectedly. It;s at once a deeply personal journey and one we share and witness as a community. This and many of Baez 'songs ( I love them too..never stopped singing them) were from a time of a war that also made no sense and expressed a cultural cry for peace. So very very fitting here. Thank you..
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 4 2011: ...yes..the eternal wisdom of Tom Paxtion & Pete Seeger ( who just turned 92 this week)..Does this say to you as it does to me that we have to visit Bin Ladens death, all events in our lives..especially world events not in the framework of hype, meme, national identity, political rhetoric and patchy and often erroneous headlines but in the quiteness of our own hearts and mind standing within the truth that is there in each of us. Most of the commenters here in this remarkable conversatuon ( and I urge everyone to read the whole conversatioon and the original question ) did not share the joy and exuberance witnessed on Monday here and all across the worl,d..it took them to a deeper place..a more profound awareness of, and presence to, a bigger underlying truth where Bin Laden's death was just a comma or an apostrophe in a bigger and more important story.
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    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 4 2011: a lovely story poby..thanks..Iwhat a powerful call Gandhi asked him to make within himself..to kill the fire of his grief as a hindu father whose son was murdered by muslims by adopting a muslim boy whose parents were killed and rasing that boy not as hindu but as muslim
      
      so profound.
      
      thank you
    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 5 2011: Richard,& Poby' Thank you This exchange between you is very much in the spirit of the question and respectful to the dozens of very thoughtful and deeply moving personal accounts here in this conversation. Ghandi's story shared by Pobi points to a complete inner peace through surrender of all things that divide us and tansecndence over all that grieves us to paralysis. That it was a quote from Ghandi at a time of open conflict between Muslims and Hindus is especially appropriate. You are right, Richard, that two little boys on a beach would be just two little boys, engaing with one another beyond identity as Hindu or Muslim. Ghandi is saying the same thing as youI think Richard. And me too. I feel also a yearning to a kind of unity that trasncends even reliogious tolereance..to a peace where we are first of all and always like the two little boys on the beach..just people together. Thank you both.
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    - Debra Smith 200+
      
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      May 5 2011: I love that you have the courage and integrity to make plain something that you could easiy have kept private. I think it is done to give another person a sense of safety. I perceive it as a show of good faith.
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    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 6 2011: so eloquent and poetic POBY..you are a poet. Your exchnges with Richard in many TED conversations woukd make a wonderful e-book.. a wonderful book
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Alex Smith
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May 4 2011: this is a weird topic. a dead leader allows another to take his place. this leader may be more or less humane than bin laden. another weird point is that he may have been in the right. American companies are raping the the middle east of their only enriching resource;oil. i understand his hate for the US.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/sam_richards_a_radical_experiment_in_empathy.html
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  - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
    
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    May 4 2011: Richard, yes thanks for pointing to the BIG PICTURE that the peoples of the wolrd are its most valuable resource. And also to the reality that reactionary idelogies or strong non global identities of any kind kee us from being "WE The poeple of the world". Do we have to wait for education for that or can we just start being and acting as citizens of the world.. trying to seeworld events beyond those narrow idntifying boundaries of religion or national identity?
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 4 2011: Alex..thank you for joining this conversation and I hear what you are saying. What you are inviting us to consider is extremely important. We should all take a moment to hear beyond our grief of that day, 9/11. I believe you are asking us to consider whether the terrorists attacks against the US are a retalitation for Americas exploitaion and control of other nations..especially nations with a lot of oil. I am coming believe, as Ilearn more and more about the history of oil, tha it is official american policy to support the oil rich plutonomy of americans in their exploitation of the oil in other countries We set up dictators who answer to us do our bidding ..we give them a seat at the plutonomy table where they share in welath and power and none of it gets down to the peoples of those nations. It has been the history that extreme poverty, lack of education, lack of insfracture and insututions have been the continuing plight of most peoples. Bin Laden, with other Arab leaders was waging a war against what perceived to be american exploitation of foreign lands and foregin resources.His plan was to bankrupt America as he bank rupted Russia by drawing us in, as Russia had gone in, emptying Americas coffers into a foolish exravagnace that would never sceure anything for America. In another conversation I am moderating ( OPEC Currency) I point to some theorits who believe the attempt to nationaliize oil and unite for all trade, especially oil, under the gold dinar was at the heart of why we went into Iraq and why now Libya. All Americans need to understand the connection between the jihad and America's long history of exploitation.I think that day as i watched the towers be struck ..watched them fall in utter disbelief, deep inside I didn't fear an external enemy, I felt my country had brought this on all of us. Their actions around the wolrd had brought thi son us right here at home.
Vincine Fallica
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May 3 2011: I free-lanced at Two World Trade Center (2 WTC) on and off for several years a long time ago.

On the way up from the subway I usually stopped to get a ‘New Yorker’s Breakfast’ (coffee), or a ‘New Yorker’s Breakfast Deluxe’ (coffee and Danish). After a while one becomes familiar and friendly with the clerks and will be given their ‘breakfast’ without asking.

On warm days one could have lunch in the Plaza and watch or hear someone busking. If you looked like you belonged there and looked approachable, you’d answer questions for visitors from Kansas, Japan, California, France, perhaps 57th street, etc., and/or you’d lead them to: a subway, a rest room, a building, a restaurant; the line for the observation deck, or whatever it was they were looking for.

The WTC was full of life during workdays.

Bin Laden’s death reminds me all that was obliterated. I (re)grieve for the vibrant life and innocent lives, lost, not only at ‘Ground Zero’, DC & Pennsylvania, but of those lost in Afghanistan, Pakistan, & Iraq, both theirs & ‘ours’. And I grieve for myself as well, for a country and world and I can no longer live in, a country and world that no longer exist. A friend told me I have phantom limb pain for an amputated soul.

Bin Laden’s death makes me feel as if my heart has been ripped out . . . again.

To me, all this jubilation reduces the horror to a soccer win. I suspect you’d find many who’ve actually lost a limb, a family member or a friend, while perhaps relieved, less than celebratory.
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  - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
    
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    May 3 2011: we are all sitting together from exactly where we are pabrita..just lkie Eric Whitacre's choir. We are together.
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 3 2011: vincine..what an eloquent, moving and profound sharing. Thank you so much for this. I want to once again in particular say how much these words of yours resonate with me..speak for my grief too" I grieve for myself as well, for a country and world and I can no longer live in, a country and world that no longer exist. A friend told me I have phantom limb pain for an amputated soul. Bin Laden’s death makes me feel as if my heart has been ripped out . . . again. To me, all this jubilation reduces the horror to a soccer win. I suspect you’d find many who’ve actually lost a limb, a family member or a friend, while perhaps relieved, less than celebratory.
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- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 3 2011: Hi Richard..your comments resonate with me intellectually and emotionally..I will follow up on your links ..always fruitful and always pushing to deeper discernment. I did also just a few minutes ago start a conersation exactly to your "Buried at sea?." You could add so much to that conversation and it is intended exactly to question why our officials would tell such a silly story. Thanks for this and your consistently serious, well informed comments and your always helpful links. My new talk really spins of from Alisa tlaks..the news about the news and the talk back on that she has been hosting here at TED Conversations ( Who Do We Trust In Journalism?). It also spins off several long discussions in goverbnance and democracy where transparency is h ilighted as key.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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May 3 2011: As Part of the record on this very powerful and deeply probing conversation I invite and encorage you to visit Lee Wilkinsons closed converstaion on the ocasion of the 10th annoversary of 9/11. Reading this entire conversation through top to bottom..every story every word is a very positive thing we can do by way of response to noise of jubiltaion and plitical theater around news of Bin Laden's death ysterday. I have done that today with a moment of silence after each contribution. I encourage you to speak what is said there in the context of this conversation to make the connection in your hearts and mind between yesterdays headline and these memories andand first hand experiences forever engraved on our soul.http://www.ted.com/conversations/2068/it_will_soon_be_the_tenth_anni.htmlMany here have commended ( and written to me via TED email) that Bin Laden's death and the jubilant response to it around the world only left many even more alone with the grief and sorrow of that day.
Amily shaw 10+
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TED Translator

May 3 2011: Hi Lindsay, i could only imagine how tough it was to lose their beloved ones on 9/11 and what is like for them right now. looking at the news i feel confused again,what kind of emotions are there in human bodies can make them leave their own families and deprive others lives. i just dont understand...i feel more concered about the young generation now cuz apparently anger and fears has been passing on to them.
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 3 2011: Amily..cold you say more about that..you are pointing to something very important and it could easily get passed by
  - Amily shaw 10+
    
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    May 4 2011: Lindsay terrorism is not a part of my experiences here. what i learnt from history is that young people can easily be used or controlled as a tool to do the things they dont necessarily understand.what happens is that people shut down outside information and creat fears and angers around them which is not necessarily theirs. people learn to be angry becuz everyone around them are angry(especially when they are trying to figure out what political stand they will take and not sure how they shoud responde to what happened).
    
    so i think of all the potential young followers of Bin Laden and young people who are against him. how they interpret what happened will impact on what things would be in the future.
    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 4 2011: great wisdom here amily. thank you
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    - Debra Smith 200+
      
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      May 3 2011: Hi Richard,
      Would you say that you are worried that taking the sort of soft stand that some of us do worries you because you feel that this is a time for vigilance and wariness and taking the measure of a formidable enemy?
      Here is why I ask.
      I believe for some strong reason that you are a really good man filled with the strong values of my youth. I am wondering if someone like you who clearly demonstrates the capacity for empathy and is obviously intelligent is simplly aware of history to the extent that you do not want us all to make some error and end up losing far more than we know we could far faster?
      I am trying to put myself in your shoes and learn what it is that you see.
    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 3 2011: I agree with you , Poby,, Richard, and also ask for civility restraint and on topic contributions..this is a convesation about how people resonated with the news of Bin Ladens death
    - Debra Smith 200+
      
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      May 3 2011: Lindsay, I want to be a good participant but I don't always see it as linearly as you do. Could this question not be an exploration of the direct result of Osama's death and a psychological reaction on all of our parts? Why is that not a valid exploration especially if the topic is becoming older news and can continue to be relevant if we explore each other's reactions more fully?We are communicating on phantom paper which costs nothing and takes no space. Who is going to keep the record of this conversation for posterity and why would the side bars and mindmapping of it impair the whole?
    - Debra Smith 200+
      
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      May 4 2011: I read the information in the link. Thanks Richard. The 2 salient points for me were that it was done by a terrorist/crime syndicate and that it was done in retaliation. Any crime syndicate is by my definition not capable of true ideological commitment. The idea of the endless cycle of retaliation is part of what is crippling our world.
      You are not worried but i am. My primary fear is that we are doing irrevocable acts with insufficient and sometimes erroneous reasoning. I fear that if I can begin to see alternate reasons for events from my tiny peephole on the world that things might be far more tangled and misrepresented that I hoped. In that instance, I have to fall back on what I know to be true. I understand that giving others the benefit of the doubt might just be the pause that they need to harm me (us) but I am not sure that I can live with the alternative.
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    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 4 2011: Poby ( may I call you Poby)..this comment invites us all to stand on higher ground..where we can see further and clearer. So strange actually for me personally to see this comment here this morning where so much has just converged for me. And I find myself right next to you here on the top of this mountain. What you say about the US I believe is true. I can't believe I speak these words..I have always believed in America, always believed that we are what we say we are in the world, but at the moment I don't see that.I am now understanding America's place in the world in very different terms, I am coming to see America as international headquarters for the global plutonomy..home base with a military economic complex designed to facilitate exploitation and control of the wolrld's resources, not by a nation, not by US, America, but by a few private individuals who have us by the throat.
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    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 4 2011: wow thanks poby..Leonard Cohen has indeed given us words for this moment in history and thanks for bringing them here..very much and exactly to the heart of what I was inviting here.
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      May 4 2011: Leonard Cohen is a great favourite of mine- a fellow countryman and I saw him do this song in concert in London, Ontario a couple years ago. Nice addition, Poby!
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    - Tim Colgan 50+
      
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      May 7 2011: An interesting debate on this topic at blogging heads:
      
      http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/35971
      
      Glenn Greenwald vs David Frum
      
      Very interesting points on the rule of law.
      
      Please comment on the arguments if you get a chance to view.
- Debra Smith 200+
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  May 3 2011: Hi Pabitra, You help me to attend to how important it is to use clear and concise language and I am and will continue to be working on it now that I am aware. I certainly agree that Bin Laden's death is not the end of anything except what I meant to convey- and that is the hunt for him and the desire to hold him accountable.
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    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 4 2011: poby I actually started a separate conversation on just this topic..why US officials cast the story as they did actually inviting conspiracy theories in its many gaps and impluasibilities. love to have your comments there.
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    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 4 2011: poby. here is the link inviting discussion on why US officials gave the story they did..why they offered that as a full and factual account of what happened..would love to have your voice and thoughts there.http://www.ted.com/conversations/2537/is_part_of_the_news_about_the.html
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- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 3 2011: I am suggesting you start a conversation on the excellent topic you have raised.about our long term relationship with Pakistan. I think someof the points You & Tim made should be explored and that i I think there is more focus and clarity on any given topic when we stay on topic.rather than post a thread off topic within another .converstaion. So I am suggesting that either you Tim start a conversation her at TED Converstaions about Pakistan. We alll know so little really about fwhats behind our military actions and foreign relations. We have heard time and again that Pakistan is key. It would be great for all of us if you & Tim and others have extensive experetise and knowledge on Pakistan to strat a conversation on it. I know I wouldlike to know more.
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    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 3 2011: not at all to US citizens pabrita..to all of us citizens of the wolrd..thi shappened to all of us, it affects all ourlives, it has relevance for all our lives and I value and respect yor input not juts here but in all the other conversatuions we have shared. ( and di I say..nice photo....)h
Debra Smith 200+
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May 2 2011: I thought that TED proved once again that it was a foreward looking organization which is proactive for peace by posting the talk demonstrating the friendship between the mother of someone lost on 9/11 and the mother whose son may have been a terrorist. Nothing could have been a better balance to the news we are discussing in this thread.3 Cheers for the TED management who made such prosocial choices in the face of all the obstacles and naysayers!
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 2 2011: ditto.. and in a way this does not serve "for the victims" at all. I am grateful for those victims who have found some measure of comfort in "getting BIn Laden" but in another way .it is almost like America is saying to the victims with all this cheering..its your grief now..we've finished our job we got Bin Laden...or perhaps I am speaking personally because it does offend my grief and it does feel a bit like massive political theatre
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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May 2 2011: Most of the comments here are not addressed to how Bin Laden was killed, but one or two including of my own have assumed that the intent was to kill and have spoken to that.. Just for the sake of journalistic balalnce I feel I must include this link to an LA time article in which officials at various levels insist thatthey did not have killing as the primary objective .Inteesting to note though that an official close to the operation s referred to captivity as a "contigency plan" I did not intend to bring any personal opinion to bear here but it is obviously present and I apologize and will refrain.ihttp://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-0502-bin-laden-raid-20110503,0,1186425.story?page=3&utm_medium=feed&track=rss&utm_campaign=Feed%3A%20latimes%2Fmostviewed%20%28L.A.%20Times%20-%20Most%20Viewed%20Stories%29&utm_source=feedburner

The point of this discussion is to get some bearings on how members of this community personally responded to this event..to see if everyone sees it as a joyous, celebrative ocasion tec. And we have all spoken to that here. Perhaps huestion self selects those who are not cheerleaders for this death.. But I have heard many voices here and some owerful thoughts..ege that education is the best anti terrorist steategy. I hope more will join us, including mor e young people who don't have the same history with Bin Laden and terrorism as us older folk and also from those who do feel great joy in thi socasion. I want to understand that too.
Corvida Raven 100+
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TED Staff Host TED Attendee Associate

May 2 2011: 9/11 was just another bad day in America for me at the time. Though I now reside in NY, I was born and raised in Miami and had no personal connections in NY (at the time) to have 9/11 make a profound personal impact on me as it did for some folks.

As for terrorism, my peers and I weren't really educated on terrorism. To us, terrorist was someone who'd done something to America that they didn't like or were on the same scale as a prisoner in America. No big difference to us. So the "threat" of terrorism was not a real experience for us.

And no one really talked about it afterwards. It was almost "taboo" in a way. We simply weren't educated on what was going on and I personally don't watch TV. I have my own opinions now at 23 and a better understanding of the events through my own research over time. The threat of terrorism still seems like a far away idea for me today. Not to say that it doesn't exist, but it hasn't had a personal affect on me (knocks on wood).
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 2 2011: thank you for this corvida..I know what you mean about that sense of taboo.. I always knew that my role was just to hear and empathize with my Mom's accounts of the Blitz..not to ask too many questions or even inititaite discussions about it. So today here we have this event from which most of the people under 25 are not politically socially , motivationally or spiritually connected. In the same way that vioices of your generation give breath and life and new spirit energy and thought to our conversations here at TED Conversations.. how do we bring that into the fore as part of our united and common commitment..which surely there is or we wouldn't here your voice at all...what do you have to say to those who are cheering and celebrating madly? To what more important issues would you and your peers have the news and our hearts and minds turn? If you had the microphone..what would you say to those assembled and cheering?
Patty Collins
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May 2 2011: I seldom rejoice at the death of any person, good bad or otherwise. Likewise I do not rejoice at the death of Bin Laden. Having said that I must say I do think the world is a tiny bit safer with him gone. The reason I think this is because Bin Laden is more than just one man. He became an idea, a cause, the way to lead. (ie what would B.L. do?) I don't think it is a good idea ever to put someone like this on a "forget about it" list. Someone with this much evil in his heart should never be forgotten. He should be pursued to the gates of hell if need be. We need not ever forget him or what he did or who he was to many people or the valuable lessons will be lost. Headlines? YES!
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 2 2011: Thank you Patty..I see and respect your point..that there is a importantly symbolic affirmation in the fact the US killed him. I started this converstaion not just to here from others that had the same disconnect with me but also becuase I wanted to know and underdstand how others were repsonding to this moment in history. So thnak you very much for joining us here.
Vincine Fallica
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May 2 2011: I feel no satisfaction, no joy, no peace, & no closure. At this news, I find my heart still aches. I still grieve.
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 2 2011: Vincine..thank you... is there more you could say about the ache and grief you feel? And perhaps also about how holding the you feel when you see this sweep of joy at the killing of Bin Laden. IF you could run a banner accross the heads of assembled joyous crowsds, take the mike or a loud speaker..what would you say to them..What is it you would like them to consider?
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- Tim Colgan 50+
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  May 2 2011: Pabrita:
  
  I'm interested in what your opinion is as to how the world should be dealing with Pakistan.
  
  Particularly considering that this is a government which:
  . Carried out the Bangladesh atrocities
  . Developed nuclear weapons and illegally sold the technology to others and honors the scientist who did so
  . Fails to prosecute those behind the Mumbai attack
  . Apparently protected bin Laden
  
  How should such a country be treated?
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    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 2 2011: pabitra..can we cut and paste these two exchanges into a new , separate and worthy discussionon Pakistan? The pouints is too worthy and too importnatto lost in a thread that is not part of this conversation. But again, it is a conversation I think we should bring to TED Conversations.
    - Ed Schulte 50+
      
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      May 3 2011: " The Military elite of Pakistan has a parallel power center making the elected government a stooge"
      
      very true .....and these "Military elte " play a large part in the conveying of drugs to the west. This is why they ...the Military ...object so strongly to collation forces operating in the NW Frontier Province. This region is a Big Cash Cow and they take a cut out of it.
  - Vasil Rangelov 50+
    
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    May 2 2011: ". Apparently protected bin Laden"
    Who the what now? I thought they actually helped localize Bin Laden prior to the take down... but just weren't officially contacted about the actual take down.
    
    The only thing the world should be dealing with IMHO is to make and protect schools in Pakistan. The taliban have bombed schools numerous times... they know anyone educated is no longer their source for new kamikazes (which I'd guess they're referring to as "ammo"). They rely SOLELY on lack of education. They know an educated person would rather die by their hand than blow himself up into a foreign country.... It's their Kryptonite.
    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 2 2011: @ Vasil RE: Apparently protected by Bin Laden. First I honor and share your point of view on the importance of protecting children and the fundaemntal power that education can have on insulating people from manipulation. which you are suggesting has been the Taliban schema. This to me is a third and separarate and very worthy TED Conversation in itself . I would love it and be right there if you were to start such a conversation because you are right..Jihad and terrorism can't exist if we educate the worlds children ( not proletyze. or indoctrinate but truly .EDUCATE. the worlds children..teach them how to think indepedently and critically, support and encourage them in that direction The role of education of global support for education is an extremely important one and I hope yoyu will bring that on its own to TED Conversations I think t is separate and paart in focus from the convesration I am encouarging Ted and Pabrita to bring to us on akistan per se. What you are pojting to is critically important globally and perhaps one of those obligations for "we the citizens of the world". all owe support and encouragement.
  - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
    
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    May 2 2011: I would love to see a converstaion on that too Tim but here it is off topic except with respect to particulars and questions that arise about Pakistans role here. And I hope you do strat a converstaion on Pakistan and I look forward to the possibility of visiting that with you, Pablita, Vasil and others.
    
    Here I would be very keen to know your take on the fesounding joy and celebration sweeping not just across America but wolrd wide..Do you share that? What is your take?
  - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
    
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    May 2 2011: ,..and additionally..a still other conversation..related to the many on global democracy and world governance is your list of "offenses" against "we the ciytizens of the wolrd"..I would still like to wokr on what that list is that suoercedes soverignty on a global basis....but not here of course,
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 2 2011: Thank you pabitra ..I am right there.with you I agree completely that we made a "bad show" in choosing to murder him instead of bring him to trial...and many penetrating points in your most welcome contribution..espcially your question about how we could not have known..and now we're so proud we knocked on th edoo and killed him? You are so right the whole story raises many questions....
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 3 2011: Tim/Pabrita did you see this morning news storeis looking into and challenging what side Pakistan was on in all this http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42865101/ns/world_news-death_of_bin_laden/ maybe a good place tolaunch your conversation from. I believe strongly that using opportunity helps focus ineterest. Impossible sometimes to get attentionon important issues, eve here at TED Converstaions, unless the issue is timely. This is timely. THis is theoerfect moent to share and engage us in converstaion about Pakistan . I hope you will do it and I will be there too.
Daniel Del Vecchio
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May 2 2011: I share your views Lindsay, all we did is kill the "CEO" of the company.... so what?? Most operation are sleeping cell independant one from the other. Saying is the "master mind" I doubt that very much. The extremist have very capable people ( money and education) on their payroll. The issue is the ideology they spread, that's what should be the number one enemy. I was reading an article in magazine saying there was a program in London where converted extremist would help other possible extremist to go back in the right Islam way. Well the funding was difficult because some people had trouble ethically with the concept. That is just sad cause the only way the " war on terror" will win is a fight on ideology.
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 2 2011: Thank you Daniel.. So if I hear you correctly you are saying this is all political theatrer ochestrated to make us feel we are on top of terrorism that we have nothing left to fear? How do you feel about that..do you feel manipulated, let down, angry? And do I also hear you saying you don't believe we are anything close to being on top of terrorism?I hadn;t heard of the counter Jihad movement in London or elsewhere. Here on my island, in an efoirt to see the Koran in its own light, to see if there was support there for Jihad, we spent a winter a few years ago actually reading the Koran. It was very enlightening and I felt a great resonance with the Koran as I am sure anyone else would. So perhaps that is what the movement you are referring to was all about..taking people back directly to what the Koran actiually says and is. Anyone looking there would see..it is all the same path..all the same teaching..we all share those values..no more violence there than in the old testament which is also confusing some times. Anyone takingthe time to study the Koran would see that Muslims are not our enemy but our brothers in faith and spirit and purpose. The enemy is the manipultaion of faith that has incited Jihad. Do you agree or am I way off here?
Corvida Raven 100+
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TED Staff Host TED Attendee Associate

May 2 2011: Osama's death is not the most important thing to happen on our globe today, but his death is definitely something that Americans have a reason to be aware of. I'm respectful of it to those that have lost a loved one because of his actions and I feel no reason to gloat about his death.

I think it's interesting that everyone asks about how it affects our views on terrorism. I was only in the 8th grade on 9/11. I'd never heard of Osama before or after 9/11 (outside of the media). His death has absolutely no affect on my thoughts/perspectives on terrorism. Osama's death didn't get rid of terrorism. Just him.
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 2 2011: corvida..I especially welcome your thoughts and was hoping that some folk who were children or young adolescents as you were on 9/11 would join us here. I would like to hear a bit more..I am sure we all would because in a way there is a generational element here in the same way there was between my parents generation and mine .My Mom was a survivor of the London Blitz and spoke of it all her life but as a young person.and even up to her last day I couldn't really connect with that fully because it was not my own experience..not an experience that my generation shared or could point to.Has the "threat of terrorism" been a real experience for you and for your peers? Is 9/11 itself a menaingful reference for you ( I am assuming not based on my own vague connection with world war III and the blitz through my parents)? I am asking because you reference terrorism. "his dearh has abosulyely no affect on mu perspectives on terrorism") And again, Corvida, I am so gald you came to this conversation..Thank You
Debra Smith 200+
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May 2 2011: My fear, Lindsay, is that any celebration or gloating about this event will lead to further violence. While millions hated Bin Laden, millions more revered him. Do you remember how we felt when American soldiers were dragged through the streets as people there celebrated - horrified, sickened, revolted and our hearts hardened. The time for good sense is now- if they react to the burning of a book- wouldn't it be wise to keep a respectful attitude to one they considered virtually an emissary?
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 2 2011: Hi Debra..glad to see you..a good point hadn't even thought of that but in the ground of my being I did not connect with the cheering whooping crowds that gathered all over. I'm not sure exactly why or where that disconnect is within me ..and quite frankly hadn't thought that it is not an optimal display of who we are as Americans.Again..nice to see you and thanks for checking in on this.
  
  EDIT: To your question "respectful attitude to Bin Laden".I take it you mean shouldn't we have handled this justce as we handle and value justice here at home. Even for Bin Laden is a straight out murder the way we do business. Doesn't that show the world a disconnect between what we(America) say and what we do?
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    May 2 2011: Hi Lindsay, I appreciate your welcoming demeanour,To clarify my point- I do not exactly mean that we should respect the man whose actions we find repulsive but rather I think that we shoud observe some decorum in respecting anyone who is dead and no longer a threat. In my opinion- it would be a better representation of who we are as a human beings (and a far more sensible and safe course of action). You can bet that American reactions will be played over and over in other countries.,
    - Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
      
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      May 2 2011: would you personally have felt more satisfaction and sense of right in this if he had been brought to trial ?.
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    May 3 2011: As strange as this might seem, my answer is no. Any trial would have been frought with danger for so many and it would have been a huge media circus which would have given so much opportunity for rhetoric and propaganda. In a real sense, the story is over.
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  - Debra Smith 200+
    
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    May 3 2011: Hey Richard!
    Missed you! I used to tell my kids when they won in sport that it was very important to be a good winner. People who gloat plant the seeds of revenge in their adversaries. I am not in disagreement with you about the agenda of radical Islam but I do think that the very best way forward is to be the best you -not the most passive you- but the highest minded you possible.
    No one is more concerned about the effects of Sharia law on people (especially women) than I am but the very best weapon we have against fundamentalism is th next generation of their children with eyes of their own and the internet.
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    May 3 2011: Hi Richard, I just watched an interesting interview that was suggested by Tim from another thread posted. It is about an Economic hitman and it informed me quite a bit about why the Muslim nations are so ticked with America.http://youtu.be/yTbdnNgqfs8
lynn eschbach 30+
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May 2 2011: For justice, I'm glad he's dead and I hope it demoralizes his radical followers.
- Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
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  May 2 2011: Hi Lynn..thanks for checking in on this conversation. I really am very keen to hear how otgers here at TED Conversations resonate with this event..what it means to them. So you are saying you feel that the meaning of the news to you is that justice has been done. I heard a lot of the 9/11 families interviewed after I posted this and they too felt that his killing was just..that justice was served no matter how it was done..but all also said the death of Bin Laden brings them no closure.

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