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Could we live without money?

Let me propose that we took away money, and replaced it with time/effort. We now don't work to strive to be better than one another, but to to help one another. We'd work and be payed for our time in food, housing, cloths, and necessity for our lives. Then like the credit we build through paying things on time would transform into the amount of effort and time put into our jobs, and would go towards our want. Electronics including games, tv's, sports, ect.. Now when you start to picture a world without money you break the boundary's that money has created. Now job owners don't have to worry about how many people they hire on just whether they can do the job or not. This way of life destroys many problems with stress, crime, and many more that i have only scratched the surface to tell you about. Now this is the question that i lead to. Do you belive this could work? And if not why not?

  • May 21 2014: The good thing about money is that is a very efficent invention for bookeeping. In a society without money, say any society a hundred thousand years ago, people naturally want to trade things, in a "fair" way, but are severely handicapped if they deal with strangers, transients, or making calculations about "value". Also, objects, or services, may easily be very inconvenient to transport, or store. It is like having to reinvent the Wheel, constantly . There have been societies which value "haggling" very highly, and socially enjoyable, but others think it is just a time wasting bore.
    There is fairness in the idea of time trading, but quite obviously, it is not going to be "fair". If you, a brain surgeon, are trading services with an incompetent bungler of an electrician, let's say, the transaction might be not only unsatisfactory, but dangerous.
    It would be much easier all around just to have an economy like the military, where goods and services are free, "pay " is reasonably close, and no one goes hungry. As the Industrial Revolution reaches its obvious conclusion, manned by robots and AI, scarcity should not be an issue. And since robots don't need to be paid, "jobs" are only necessary to the extent that some work could be rationed out as a civic duty, sort of like KP. They wouldn't need to be specially "paid".
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    May 13 2014: Not only could we live without money, we also should do so.
    Everything on earth is for everyone and belongs to no-one. We must just remember to only take as much as we need (not more) and give back as much as we took.
    The concept of profit and possession is not possible.

    And why wait for the unlikely even that everybody joins at the same time? Just start at least reducing your own use of money. Suggest other trades to your employers. Where do you get food and shelter from and what could you give in return? Start paying with your services, hosting, ... and use timebanks.
    Stop buying new stuff but swap and diy/ recycle instead.
    Most importantly: Spread the word and stick to your new life.
  • May 1 2014: Greetings My People.
    This morning I decided to Google ¨lets stop using money worldwide¨ and found this Forum-Topic, to my surprise. It has given me new found hope that the Grandiose idea of HUMANDKIND STOPING THE USE OF MONEY. An idea that is surely firing through the Natural Mystic of the Spiritual Network of Conected Minds n Souls on Earth...

    Not only is it a good idea, it seems like the best idea, the simplest, the keenest. But as always the key is Unity. So TOTAL UNITY is key. World Wide at one time, We decide not to use money anymore.

    When? Well every culture has the custom of having a New Year Resolution. The calling in of a New Beginning, a new chapter. So a new Year seems like the best time.
    New Years 2015 Maybe?

    With the internet and Technology it should be an easy task to organize this Epic Move.

    Since the Industrial Revolution, the World had and has the exponential ability to provide more than the basics for more than 10 times the current world population.

    When money and separatism is no longer an issue, Humankind will see leaps in technological advances that we never thought attainable in our lives.

    Without the use of money, all of Humanity (those that wish to) will live in a level of luxury, comfort, automation and abundance that not even the richest Elites alive now would ever see in 1000 years (asuming we stayed in a capitalist-slavalist system.

    A BETTER WORLD NOT ONLY IS POSSIBLE, IT IS A MUST.
    UTOPIA OR BUST should be the BUMPER STICKER.

    Check out my Book Utopia or Death
    You can purchase it if you wish
    http://www.amazon.com/Utopia-Death-C-Martins-R/dp/1105122638
    or Download a free digital copy
    https://archive.org/download/UtopiaOrDeath/6x9Ebook2012.pdf

    NAMASTE - BE THE CHANGE YOU WISH TO SEE IN THE WORLD.
    LIVE BY YOUR HEART, Live, Give and Do for Love.
  • Apr 26 2014: Paper money was first used in America in the late 1600s. Bartering has been around forever. However Time banking is a form of bartering that makes the most sense to me.
    • Apr 26 2014: "For every hour participants ‘deposit’ in a timebank.. they are able to ‘withdraw’ equivalent support in time when they themselves are in need."
      http://www.timebanking.org/about/what-is-a-timebank/
    • Apr 29 2014: Instead of being called "dollar" the unit is "hour" or "minute" or what-have-you. It's still money--an abstraction used as a medium of exchange, with or without an associated physical currency.
      • Apr 29 2014: One of the biggest differences is it is not taxable by the IRS. It is not like a barter system where there is a direct exchange between two parties. It is one party doing a unit of work for a credit only. Later on that credit may or may not be used to purchase time from another party. Because their is no money changing hands plus no guarantee of collection, the IRS does not want to hear about it. In the case of a barter system, there is an exchange of goods or services with a guaranteed collection agreed upon and a complete document that the IRS can evaluate and tax.
        • Apr 29 2014: Barter is taxable by the IRS (form 1040 Schedule C http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html). Any medium of exchange is taxable by the IRS. A few informal swaps here and there won't attract any interest, but systematic, wide-scale barter will bring the IRS down to crush. Before you pontificate, reduce your ignorance.
      • Apr 29 2014: Bryan I have been studying Timebanking for over three years now and was in the process of starting a Las Vegas Time Bank. I even went so far as to buy a Domain name and thought about writing my own software to offer free as a way of spreading this wonderful system around the world. During the process I studied all the applicable laws both state and federal so please stop calling other people your pet names and I would appreciate an apology, otherwise you will never get another response from me again. Below you will find, if you read it, answers to any questions you may have about the IRS rulings or timebanks in general.

        Are TimeBank exchanges tax-exempt?
        Yes, and this is another reason why TimeBanking is different than bartering: it is not taxable. In normal bartering, you have to declare the value of the good and services you receive to the IRS. We have an IRS private letter ruling that TimeBank community building exchanges are tax-exempt.

        http://danecountytimebank.org/faq

        http://besttimebank.org/Links/Time%20Dollar/IRS%20Ruling.htm

        http://timebankoftherockies.com/faqs/why-did-the-irs-rule-time-banking-tax-exempt/

        http://www.accessagency.org/files/dep_menu_4.pdf

        http://www.timebank.org.nz/node/53

        https://hourworld.org/_FAQ.htm
        • Apr 30 2014: So, an unenforceable system isn't taxable. I'll go with that for now and apologize. Now, what happens if someone attempts to use any sort of sanction to enforce some aspect of a time bank, thereby creating an "obligation"? What is the hard, bright line between a "time bank" and "barter"? To completely replace money with this system would bring the attention of the IRS, and they would revisit their "private letter". Private letters do not have the force of law. They are ad hoc administrative decisions. Were it to come to court, the IRS could say that the situation described in the private letter does not apply.

          What is the hard, bright line? Ithaca Hours, for example, are taxable--probably because they do not meet criterion 1--someone can receive more than one Ithaca Hour for one hour of service. However, the justification behind that is that, very often, the "one" person getting paid--in Ithaca, some professionals take Hours, or at least they used to when I lived there--has employees who also contribute their time.

          Until a judge makes a ruling, the status of a "time bank" is actually unknown.
      • Apr 30 2014: Bryan this conversation is about completely replacing money, however I have come to believe that timebanking probably works best as it is now in conjunction with money. Money in it's self is not evil, people become evil and money is just another tool for them to express that. Perhaps there is a better system like bit coin, but each system will bring out the good and bad traits of the human race. What do you think?
        • May 1 2014: i agree but one thing id like to say about your tos conversation is that technicly the tax towards time would be there time to the community it is there obligation not to the community but to themselves if theyed like to survive its the natrul order thats dated bck before humans u dont see nimals laying on there ass 24/7 being takin care of you see them hunting gathering people must know they must work for them selves but at the same time the comunity thats there tax its there work not a lil extra not its them getting up and doing what theyed do ethier way n one needs extra we just want extra
      • May 1 2014: Augie so far there is not tax on timebanking but that could change. I'm just guessing but I suspect the reasoning goes somewhere along these lines: a) we are not talking about a large amount of money in the first place b) as these communities share and communicate with each other they get a feeling of belonging to the community and they do things other communities leave to the government to do. Things like pick up litter, report crime and support government instead of cause even more problems so they actually save the government money. c) If they tax them it would be easy for them to just go underground like criminals do. Some smart official figured out that it would cost the government more in the long run to try and tax them.

        The problem with any money type system is it is built on trust and there is no longer any organization on earth that anybody trusts... none. We surely don't trust the government or business or religion or even family. Even world banks are corrupt to the core. You tell me, if you found a hundred pound diamond, where would you put it??
  • May 21 2014: pen my eyes to what i dont see
  • May 21 2014: i understand what your saying. i see that would be a very big problem in my scenario. but there will always be jobs were people need to be the worker and the fact that robots could take over most manual labor would acctually increase the joy in peoples lives in my scenario. why? because now sence the only things needed for the well being of humanity would be farming(meats, veagtables, fruits, and plant), home construction, security measures, waste desposle and possiably what ever saphisticated word ud use for cashiers and any others that i missed. now you may say most if not all of these jobs can be done by an automated worked but i say is that better for the community? yeah we could put machines to make all are food but then whos taste better? yeah we could possiably in a few years buil a machine to build all our houses but would they last? yeah we could have a computer take care of all our security measures but how does it take care of problems? does it have human intuition? does it decides whos wrong whos right? yeah we could have a device at store restruants give and serve food but is it cooked right? are they taking more than they need? these are all points(excluding things i didnt bring up) that question wether machines are better employees than human workers. now i think those all are things i belive should be done by humans but in my statement that i first brought up i included that its not about how much time u put in or how u put it in but that u do and even if one out of seven billion people work 8 hour shifts maybe twice a week on all the jobs that are needed for the comunity while al the others are taken care of by machines this would mean people would only neeed to learn things they have to do through out there lifes in society which could be any one of the necessity needed by the comunity. then this would allow them to pursue what they love and still get what they need in the prossec. now i may have some flase in my statement but please counter me to
  • May 9 2014: well i mean i understandwhat ur saying but for the no money to work we would need to set aside the assumptuion that we need to care for everyone wether they work or not cause in the world iam talking about it isnt ruled by the boundiars of money so everyone can work there isnt an employer worrying about haveing to many people that they cant pay for its just the community worring about that every position that is needed is filled and i may sound harsh when i say this but people who dont work for the community are like the weak sick aniaml in the herd they would be puting them selves in danger of not liveing (granted no one helped them which i couldnt account for) but like i belive i stated in my post every thing would be destibuted paportunatly to everyone who works for their community meaning u got what u needed for the month and resturants and places like that would be keep to a min to thin out the lazy people so that theyd have to work its not a question its a fact its life or death we dont like to exxecpt it but we are animals we need to carry our own weight but at the same time people with compasion can share to people who are in need yet they want to be their crutch in their own down fall thats their choice i would not force anyone to work for their need but just give them the option do you understand? and srry for the run on sentence
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    May 5 2014: Augie, About three years ago, my property taxes were increased. When I looked into where the increase in the county budget was, I found that it was with section 8 housing and food stamps. So, I wrote to our local politicians and suggested a barter system for this "free money".

    It would work like this....if I worked full time and needed day care, someone who was out of work and receiving these section 8 benefits from my tax dollar would provide the daycare and receive a voucher. Like wise for mowing the lawn, cleaning the house and lots of other things that I would have to pay someone to do, after my paycheck is already chopped up by taxes.

    When someone would work for a company, they would receive vouchers with their paycheck - for example a voucher worth $10 for each hundred earned. Then they can choose to use the vouchers to pay for services, or not use them at all if they chose. The people who earned the vouchers would then turn them in to the county to receive that amount of benefits for the vouchers which they earned. If they sat on their ass all month and did nothing, they would get nothing. The tax payer would have more money, the taxes would go down and the free ride would come to an end. So, there would still be some money circulating, but it would go much further and we would have greater benefits for our hard work and be able to save.

    Do you want to know what the response was to my letters?..............I was told it sounded too much like slavery!!! Imagine that, actually asking someone to get off their ass and work for their check being referred to as slavery. Most just call it a job. I call it earning your keep. But the bottom line is, as long as there are lazy people, the "no-money" system cannot work.
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    May 2 2014: see the Zeitgeist movement :)
    Also there are no rich and there are no poor - it's all a bloody stupid mind game.

    People say what about the poor and starving in Africa etc, the problems needed to overcome to feed these people are massive and there is this problem and that problem etc. I say, print some real dollars, not hard as we do it all the time, look up fractional reserve banking, Then give this pretend money to these starving people and then lets see how long it takes for Coke / Pepsi / Pitza hut and Mc lets make a buck Donald's to show up.

    Like I said - mind games from the cradle to the grave - sad but true.
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    May 1 2014: Yes, we could live without money if we can replace it with a better way of doing our financial transactions.

    "The history of money concerns the development of means of carrying out transactions involving a physical medium of exchange. Money is any clearly identifiable object of value that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts within a market or which is legal tender within a country.

    Many things have been used as medium of exchange in markets including, for example, livestock and sacks of cereal grain (from which the Shekel is derived) – things directly useful in themselves, but also sometimes merely attractive items such as cowry shells or beads were exchanged for more useful commodities. Precious metals from which early coins were made fall into this second category..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money
  • May 1 2014: yes i understand that but the reasons i make money is not for myself its to fund my mission. and my mission is to find out how to change this world with out force and to be abe to change the world that is my life goal and idc about my own life i care about all the other people around my life from the good to the bad. because ik even the bad have good in them its just they have sided with the bad be cause they see no other option in their lives.
  • Apr 30 2014: I dont think abandoning civilisation is the only viable outcome to dismantling global monetary systems, but considerable challanges would exist between maintaining societal structures, abondoning concepts which are thousands of years old and shifting perceptions. Money, time and value are all human constructs. Stock markets, financial trading and banking are products of our modern global economies. Its this very structure which governs quality of life and is destroying the world around us, for which only a few actually have any influence over. Our civilisation is capable of much, much more if our reason to exist was no longer to survive, earn as much as possible, be richer than the next.
  • Apr 29 2014: That is what needs to change. Augie, says it should not be about me or you, but about the community you are a part of. Our four score years and ten should be about the community, the wider population and what we are doing to the planet. The drive towards the creation of wealth keeps others in poverty and is ultimately destructive for the environment and our race. The more we earn the more we consume the more we consume for the sake of accumulated wealth the less there will be for future generations. How do you change humanity from desiring more, to giving more?
    • Apr 29 2014: well theres two ways. one is the obvious on force but its been shown over time that that does work but only for a period of time. then theres the second which would be to change the peoples mind through persuasion but i stil have yet to figure out a way to mke it possiable.
  • Apr 29 2014: ill say this to everyone who responed i greatly apprciate everything youve had to say its opened my eyes a lil more. but whtat i wil say is no one is ever equal me and u are we equal in height? color of skin? eye color? no. but should this change who gets more? no. so why try being better or getting more than the so called burger flipper why try to look down on others. yes id say many of u are right its kind of a type of currency but at the same time it isnt. its not like if u dont have enough u dont get the food on ur table or the roof over your head. its just a simple way of life to destroy unemployment and rebuild lost live. but this also comes at a cost no matter what we do we always come to the same problem wether we have money or not. how much resorces do we have? will we run out soon? when will we run out? well i attack this situation with a life limit its not a oh u have to die so we canlive no its a if u wnt ur childrens childrens to live youll make the ultimate ssacrifice for them when the tme comes... no many people will say this is cruel and out of the questin cause yur like i wanna live forever but at what cost so u can die after suffering for 40 years in back pain? so yo can break everybone in your body? i know that i personaly dont wanna live past 60 because of all of the resaons in this statment not only my pain but the pain ill cause to others after im long gone. now before u responed let this sink in and think about everything ive said dont get mad think about it rashionaly. (sorry for my spelling and capitoliszation im not the greatist writer)
  • Apr 29 2014: Communist China tried that. It failed. Is the "time" of a burger flipper of equal value to the "time" of a doctor?
    • Apr 29 2014: yes i belive so honestly after looking over everyones statements it doesnt matter what u can do it just matters that u do it. but i also want to add once moneys gone everything changes there would no longer be freedom of over consumption of that burger so there would be less work for the doctor. you must realize that most doctors work comes from problems that money makes and onse those problems can be solved their job becomes slightly easier now dont say well what aout car accidents gun shot wounds animl bite those are all natural causes that happen in everyday life not everything can be changed but the things that make most of our live misserable can be
      • Apr 29 2014: China tried that. It failed. It failed so laughably that one would think that no sane individual would ever propose it again.
        • May 1 2014: care to explain? im not totally indepth on my history
  • Apr 29 2014: Nothing costs money.
    Everything costs people.
    Until people get this into their consciousness, they will still fall for the trinkets, beads and the "en trance" to the Mall.

    Things don't........"get done"........... because of money.
    Things............"don't get done"........because of money.

    That is true. In fact it is money itself that blocks humans, you and me, from solving our problems. Without money,
    nothing would be blocking us from solving our problems and we would then solve them.

    Nothing costs money. Everything costs people.

    If and when the global economy collapses, and it must collapse, money will be worthless, or there effectively will be none. What will happen? Some people have angrily told me that at that point, they will no longer be hungry. Really?

    There will be nothing to motivate them because only money motivates a person. Hunger doesn't, thirst doesn't, learning doesn't, visiting a friend doesn't, etc. So I would guess that somehow it is money that motivates a person to go see a friend, or play with a child, or teach something, study something, have a party, etc. Let's go swimming. Where's the money in that?

    We all share the same consciousness, thus we all are internally related to the whole. But, we don't think that way or see it that way because we have been brainwashed into believing we are all separate.

    Until we really see that we are internally related to the whole, meaning ultimately I am you and you are me, then we will continue to treat that which we falsely believe is external to us, with ignorance, destruction, fear, disdain, disrespect and so on, or in other words, exactly how we are doing it now and have been for a long time.

    What will happen? Or, we will be offered a global currency as a means to still the embedded fear that all hell will break loose if we don't accept it. A lot like the false-flag fear around the bailout in the u.s. after they collapsed the economy.

    Only thing I can say is, "don't take it!"
    • Apr 29 2014: i understand what your saying and your right, but my response to what would motivate people if they didnt have money? well death of course if we all stop working for each other wed all die and yes thats still embeading fear to cause motivation but that instinct not only in humans but in animals as well. you are also right that things dont get done because of money and thats why if we took it away and changed everything it would be different. like bryan said above you is the time equal to the time of a doctor? i would respectfully say no because of what a doctor goes through but thats like saying ima change one aspect of my life to change everything but keep everything else the same and thats insanity. wed have to change everything not just money but they way we live the morals of life ad im no saying that death isnt bad but its a nessacity for others to live just like we most sacrifice thing in our live for the greater good.
  • Apr 29 2014: A few days ago I asked the same question in another part of this site.
    "Here is a wild thought. A world without money. I’m not crazy just fed up of seeing so much destruction and violence where money and power are the drivers. A global agreement to work towards changing our markers for success from accumulation of wealth and power to restoration of our planets ecosystems, zero health and social inequality attainment of knowledge.I'll just need some help with pitching this."

    Now to answer your question witha question. Isn't replacing money with a time/effort credit just another form of currency? What if through disability, illness or injury time/effort were not possible to give? I'm more inclined to think of time as being the carrot, but Wayne makes a good point about effort. How do you quantifify efficiency, art and ingenuity?

    To keep having these conversations for now will help form some coherent solutions.
    • Apr 29 2014: Money is a representation of labor. That's an actual formal economic theory from way back.
      • Apr 29 2014: Money is a representation of value. The value could be services or goods or even just a collectible.
        • Apr 29 2014: But under conflict theory of economics (Marxism, etc.) the ultimate value derives from labor.
    • Apr 29 2014: alright let me start by sayin time would not have a value or an amount it would just be u worked u get ur nessacetys the more u work the better u work the more uneccecary things u get now once u start going into other fields thats people own choice its no longer about how much u make but why u do it do u wanna save peoples live or even just try its not only about ur self anymore u move ur life for the better of the community
      • Apr 29 2014: It's called "money". That's how that is handled in the non-fairy-tale world.
        • Apr 29 2014: No ones disputing what its called and represents, the question being asked is how can we live without it?
    • Apr 29 2014: The only way to live without money is to use something that is merely money under a different name, unless you want to go back to hunter-gatherer bands, no medicine, no computers, no survival after the age of 45.
  • Apr 29 2014: You can but you should live like Tarzan.
    • Apr 29 2014: that would be nice XP but not every one would go back to primitve ways
      • Apr 30 2014: I know that is not possible for modern community but if you want to live with no money you have no other way so you should earn money.
  • Apr 27 2014: You talk about time/effort. You need to put a quality gauge on this. In the arts, how do you compare the time of Yo Yo Ma versus a cello player in a Symphony orchestra? I can write a program in 2 days versus certain people that would take a month and mine would be better and faster. Does that mean I would get less credit because I had less effort and less time?

    There are 200-300 individuals I would trust to design and write the kernal of an RDBMS. How do you account for their ability? How do you account for genius?
    • Apr 29 2014: In time banking everyone's time is valued the same whether you are a doctor, a plumber or a dog walker. It is all a voluntary system, no one has to participate and works very well along side a regular monetary system. You have the freedom to declare and define which of your services are in the system. If you are a brain surgeon, you do not have to include that service in your ad, you make your own ad or ads and decide what services you would like to do for people, maybe the doctor wants to walk dogs as a service at night as a form of exercise. So the doctor walks a dog for an hour for some neighbor and get an hour credit which later on he can trade for someone who mows lawns for instance. If you are interested go to http://timebanks.org and they have all the details. This system is working well for thousands of people in Europe and the USA and spreading to other countries.
      • Apr 29 2014: Keith,

        I am not arguing about the time bank or barter systems but doing away with money implies everything comes under those systems.
        • Apr 29 2014: Good point Wayne and I haven't given it any real deep analysis as an only system, I think it works real well along side a money system as it is right now. It is not the money system or the religion or the government system that is the problem. The problem is the corruption and violence of humans, which I keep explaining is due to a simple thing like the food we eat. As long as we progressively get more corrupt, none of the systems that would ordinarily work well will function properly. But we as a human race continually ignore that instead placing the blame of other people, places and things.
      • Apr 29 2014: Communist China tried it. It failed miserably.
    • Apr 29 2014: the same as any one else intelegence looks or even athletisim doesnt mean u should get more thats just greed
      • Apr 29 2014: So you are saying that quality means nothing - a japanese sword created by a living national treasure who has spent 50 years perfecting his art is equal to an apprentice's effort or Yo Yo Ma playing for an audience is equal to a high school student playing for an audience?

        Think you are wrong but we can agree to disagree.
        • Apr 29 2014: Bingo! He's saying that quality means nothing! He's saying that the stupid and the lazy will get just as much as the brilliant and the hard working. He's saying that the brilliant and the hard working should be punished by being valued no better than the intentionally laziest person on earth.
  • Apr 26 2014: People get bored. Money lets us "get on with it".